So all in all, yeah not every disturbance ends in an alpha rolling, and I do agree that ignorant people shouldn't go around willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, but that does not mean that it is always sunshine and happiness in a wolf pack, alpha rolls, though few and far in-between, do still happen. and hopefully no one really interested in wolf behavior takes this video seriously.
It would be a real shame for them to be running about so misinformed.
@xWolfHauntx Wrong. Alpha rolls NEVER happen as a way of establishing "dominance." I am not aware of a single documented case of that ever happening. That is not to say that conflicts and even fights don't sometimes occur. They do. But the animal that is forced onto it's back will end up with its throat ripped out. It's not for show.
But the real issue is that people try to use the alpha roll not with a wolf (see how that works for you) but with domestic dogs, which is wrong on every level.
@amoom0 Glad to know you know nothing of dog or wolf behavior.
Now, you might think by my last message that I meant alpha rolls ONLY happen to show dominance in general, well no, that is not what I meant, that is just a part of a whole big picture, look at this for example: watch?v=v_CLbV1Y16Y&list=FLXrWqxsOb5PkH14Udb0nEqA&index=10&feature=plpp_video THAT is an "alpha roll." Now did the GSD just decide to go and roll the Lab? No, it did not, it's "resource"guarding the girl at the end.
@xWolfHauntx I didn't see an alpha roll in this video. I saw a dog already on it's back trying to appease a very poorly socialized GSD who didn't know enough about the rules of canine behavior to leave the submissive dog alone. Like the GSD, you are missing the point. Canines first and foremost try to diffuse potentially dangerous and injurious situations. VOLUNTARILY rolling over is one way they do it. Had those been actual wolves the conflict would have ended then. It's a matter of survival.
@amoom0 Thank you for proving my point exactly. I never said the alpha roll was justified, now did I? The point was, THAT is considered an alpha roll, see? Bigger picture, and it's flying right over your head. Just like not everything a human does is justifiable, well it's the same for dogs. Now, I thought this would be obvious, but I guess you are stuck in your own cloud fallacy, if the GSD was raised properly would it even have been resource guarding the owner? No.
@xWolfHauntx Your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance. An alpha roll is the use of physical force to turn a canine onto its back. The video you provided did not show that. It showed one dog already on its back - and I'd bet anything that it got there on its own - trying to appease another poorly socialized dog.
@amoom0 And I gave you other examples, better examples of alpha rolls, once again, you are going under my words to try and sound right. The GSD video was to show you that alpha rolls are a wide variety of "acts" between dogs and wolves, it not just a simple, dog pushes over dog until it falls over and rolls onto it's back, it's much more complicated than that, and like I said, unless you've been studying dog behavior(NOT dog training) and actually taught it, then you wouldn't know.
@amoom0 Now, being as I don't care for people who try to pull the words under words ploy, I'm done here, you're not going to admit you are wrong, and I am not going to agree with your theories, so let's just agree to disagree. I stop any arguments between clicker eating trainers before they get embedded too deep because I know from experience that it's hopeless. I made my mark on this video and I don't care to keep coming back to it.
@xWolfHauntx I am a professional dog trainer and I work too often with dogs that have been mistreated by "trainers" who try to impose "dominance" on dogs they believe ought to be "submissive." The alpha roll is one of the more popular tools in the arsenal of these fools. If you are one of them... so be it. There is a marked unwillingness among many "professionals" who have been "doing this for decades" to accept the findings of science when it contradicts their dearly held beliefs.
@amoom0 See, that's your problem right there, you thinks you are god's gift to the dog world since you are a professional trainer, and I am betting you are one of those clicker happy all positive ones too. And if you are going to keep going under my words just to try and make yourself sound right, then this argument is void. I have already said MULTIPLE times that dog owners should NOT go willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, BUT, that does not mean that it does. not. exist.
@amoom0 I never said I MYSELF alpha roll dogs, that would be asking for trouble, so put your trainer card back in your pants, and no, trainers should not do that when training, but that still does not meet with my whole point, that just because a trainer can't alpha roll a dog, does not mean it does. not. exist.
@xWolfHauntx That does not change the validity of the facts even a tiny bit. I've had enough experience trying to educate the intentionally obtuse to know that it's almost always useless. So go ahead, and have the last word... Your kind is dying out, Eventually the truth is accepted, but don't despair. I believe that the Flat Earth Society is still an active group. One day the Canine Dominance & Alpha Roll Society will be comforting its members as well as the world moves on and people chuckle.
@amoom0 Now, that doesn't mean wolves cannot be the same way, sure, most of the time, yeah, wolves are more "survival smart" and will end it before it gets bad, but when two dominant minds meet and don't want to yield to each other, then a similar thing can happen. And I am not "educated" by tv personalities online, it's called studying dog and wolf behavior extensively for decades, when you can teach several dogs and wolfdogs dog/wolf behavior, then you can come back at me.
@xWolfHauntx Had the GSD been raised and socialized properly, it too would have relented in its attack. The point had been made. Continuing to harass the other dog only risked escalating the encounter in a full-fledged fight because at some point that Lab would have started to fear for its life and fought back.
You are honestly ignorant on this subject. But you're not alone. The fallacy of "dominance" is perpetuated in our culture by supposed "experts" and TV personalities all the time.
@amoom0 Here's more proof: watch?v=1q9vx-CBueU See? Those are also considered "alpha rolls." And those are even wolves doing it. Now I can't say what they are snarking over because I didn't see the body language before the fight, but still, that's an "alpha roll." And look, the black wolf is even being "submissive" like the Lab with the GSD, and the white wolf still kept going, like I said before, sometimes "alpha rolls" are not justified, and perhaps not common, but they DO exist.
@amoom0 Now, look at the brown and the white dog in this video: watch?v=HbosW91QWYs&feature=BFa&list=FLXrWqxsOb5PkH14Udb0nEqA&lf=plpp_video THAT was also considered an "alpha roll." Now what were they snarking over? The breeding female obviously. Now, look at the buff colored retriever looking dog and the black and tan dog, what is that buff dog doing? It's resource guarding the breeding female, same as the GSD in the other video with the owner.
@amoom0 But see, this is calmer because the black dog is more "submissive," which and is showing avoidance, so there never was a need for "alpha rolls." So no, I am not wrong, I can just see a bigger picture that you unfortunately cannot.
And if you look at my first message, I SAID people should not go willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, it's not my fault you chose not to process that with the fact that I also said alpha rolls exist.
@amoom0 And the proof is right there, did ANY of those dogs get their throats ripped out? No, Because see, that's EXACTLY what the "alpha roll" is, a show, dogs snark, but most of the time, they don't even really bite each other.
This is not at all accurate. Tristan was a very established leader by the time these shots were taken, and yes, often this is what happens when the other wolf is submissive, however, how do you think Tristan was able to be alpha for 6 years? He fought with Miska for beta position and then broke away from there. However, I have seen Tristan do several alpha rolls to Wolfgang and Wonton, among others and in time, both those two disposed him as alpha, and how? by alpha rolling him into submission.
Ok soo alphas are leaders of packs? What are omegas? Are alphas and omegas a type of wolf or are they just like regular type wolves but alphas and omegas are rankings in packs? Cuz I was watching alpha and omega and I didn't really get the movie...I thought omegas were white/grey wolves and alphas are brown or somthing........lol
Thanks for posting this. I'm a professional dog trainer and I tell my misinformed clients - all the time - that wolves and dogs offer this behavior voluntarily and that it is virtually never physically forced upon them.
In the exceeding rare instance that it is, the animal being attacked in such a manner can expect the next thing to happen is for its throat to be ripped out. Not exactly the frame of mind you want to inflict upon a family pet.
@alexw Nope, that is not true. They used to think that because the original study on wolf behavior was through a group of wolves thrown together in a small caged environment. They studied wolves in the wild and it showed that almost every wolf gets to be an Alpha. The alpha is the breeding pair, the produce a litter and raise that litter being leader over them. Most people don't realize those wolves are actually a family. Google "Alpha" Wolf. It's a scientist explaining how the study was flawed
@alexw Uhm... How? I've actually tried researching into these things from experienced people and not listening to old studies and word of mouth. The Alpha wolf IS the breeding pair, because the breeding pair raises the pups they give birth to. Every wolf becomes an alpha somewhere down the line if they breed. Like I said... watch that video.
@magicalcrazyness keep repeating yourself. you won't change the fact that what you say is obvious and is nothing extraordinary. you're still confusing yourself
my standard poodle alpha rolls my other female. She barks and growls her down until she is on her back and yes, she does roll over on her own because my poodle does not have arms. My poodle is a doll and would never hurt any of her human family or bark or growl at us. I do not believe humans should use alpha rolls on their dogs though because you could ruin the relationship. My dogs are submissive to me without me over powering them with such a drastic move as a roll. Just my two cents.
The communication of aggressive motivation or fighting ability has important fitness consequences for competing animals
Selection should favour rapid and honest communication between opponents to settle Dominance Relationships while Avoiding Prolonged and Intense Fighting.
Selection should favour rapid and honest communication between opponents to settle Dominance Relationships while Avoiding Prolonged and Intense Fighting.
The description of the interacctions of the pack on Ellesmere Island are Based on Mech own Interpretations.
He refers to the Alpha and to the Heriachal System on a very Simplistic maner like -'promoting friendly relations' or 'reducing social distance' or 'families' Statements Very open to Misinterpretations. (Very Conveniently isn't?)
So, Do Not act and talk like your stating proven facts!!...
When those 'pure positive' Pigeons make the Reference of D. Mech Work they are talking about the results from a field study examining a Solitary Pack of Wolves in the wild completed by David Mech on 13 Summers on Ellesmere Island (1999).
The Dominance encounters are more common in the Winter months, several factors can affect the display of Dominance Ritual Behaviours.
The Observations show that, at least in Summer on Ellesmere Island the Wolfs displayed the behaviour Described by D. Mech
@skinnydog - Have a look at davemech.org in the news section.
This is the guy who helped to start the Alpha myth 43 years ago, TELLING us he was wrong. He's been telling us this for years, but people like you just won't listen, and you even aply it to domestic dogs too. So sad. And Irresponsible.
And I must say your attitude probably reflects your behaviour towards dogs too. Again, so sad.
This video is absoulute bullshit. What planet are you on that you think you can "debunk" something by showing one confrontation from one wolf pack. You obviously have a moral standpoint on the alpha role and you are using this non evidence to suit your agenda. Get with it, alpha rolls happen... If you think that it doesn't then go study wolves yourself and find out, or even better read some studies from people who already have spent years with wolves and seen alpha rolls with their own eyes.
I always get down on the ground with the dog, roll around and make it as much fun to learn this as possible (soft, not hard surface).
Classically the "down" command is the method of obtaining submissiveness. However, a dogs tension may still be high in this position. Analogous to this is wild dogs prey behavior as they crawl on their bellies in a mock down position (is this submissiveness?- no. Neither is it relaxed). I'm not saying that a dog is incapable of aggression if it can roll over aro
derstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misund erstanding of the posturing of dogs in general. To get a dog to be less dominant in a pack I train the dog to roll over gently (and for the aggressive ones gradually), in other words "all the way over and up again". This combines a RELAXED spine (the dog can't flip around if it's tense) with a natural show of SUBMISSIVENESS (exposing the belly). RELAXED + SUBMISSIVENESS. = RELAXED SUBMISSIVENESS. I always get down on t
I train up to 13 dogs a day off leash and in a public park every day. Injuries from fighting or agression; about once a year or less. There seems to be a lot of confusion about justification for rolling a dog in training or handling. I don't use an Alpha "type" roll as a training technique at all, but to prevent wounds (handling). I don't believe in vet bills for not getting involved is all. Personally I think the misund erstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misun
I train up to 13 dogs a day off leash and in a public park every day. Injuries from fighting or agression; about once a year or less. There seems to be a lot of confusion about justification for rolling a dog in training or handling. I don't use an Alpha "type" roll as a training technique at all, but to prevent wounds (handling). I don't believe in vet bills for not getting involved is all. Personally I think the misunderstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misund
Lobos adultos forçam os filhotes a fazerem o Alpha Roll quando os mesmos incomodam de mais, lobos adultos entram em posição de submissão por si só.
Sendo que o cão tem a mentalidade equivalente à de um filhote de lobo, o Alpha Roll não está errado como um todo, o unico porém é o humano saber fazer e reconhecer em que momento se usa.
Muito bem colocado. O lobo não é forçado a fazer, ele o faz sozinho em sinal de deferência ao outro, o líder não o força. Então porque as pessoas acham que se fizerem um cão (parente tão distante dos lobos) a deitar desta forma ele será submisso ä elas?
I understand that a submissive wolf would do it out of respect, but what happens if he doesn't submit voluntarily? The point of the Alpha roll is when the dog will not submit. I don't condone it's use in virtually any situation as dogs who truly refuse to submit are very rare.
But how does the alpha establish himself in the first place? The alpha shoves other wolves on their back when they -don't- roll over submissively like that, and the other wolves learn that the alpha is in charge so they do as they're told from then on.
The word "alpha" is generally considered outdated and has been replaced with the phrase "breeding pair".
A wolf pack is a small family group in which the younger wolves are submissive to the elder wolves, the breeding pair. When they grow up, they wander off to find mates and start their own family, becoming the "alphas" (breeding pair) of a new pack.
Check out wolf . org for lots of information about my favourite wild animal. :-p
Ooh, that's pretty cool... but it's still true that in a pack you have a hierarchy where the weaker animals will submit to the stronger, right?
My cats were doing it earlier today, in fact... the big one was eating and the smaller one started to get too close so the big one hit him over the head and he rolled over saying "Go ahead, eat your food, don't hurt me ;'(" Pretty cute at the same time as interesting :P
One last thing...why the hell are like over half my suggested videos from this are all types of animals mating??? >.<
xWolfHauntx 1 month ago
So all in all, yeah not every disturbance ends in an alpha rolling, and I do agree that ignorant people shouldn't go around willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, but that does not mean that it is always sunshine and happiness in a wolf pack, alpha rolls, though few and far in-between, do still happen. and hopefully no one really interested in wolf behavior takes this video seriously.
It would be a real shame for them to be running about so misinformed.
xWolfHauntx 1 month ago
@xWolfHauntx Wrong. Alpha rolls NEVER happen as a way of establishing "dominance." I am not aware of a single documented case of that ever happening. That is not to say that conflicts and even fights don't sometimes occur. They do. But the animal that is forced onto it's back will end up with its throat ripped out. It's not for show.
But the real issue is that people try to use the alpha roll not with a wolf (see how that works for you) but with domestic dogs, which is wrong on every level.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Glad to know you know nothing of dog or wolf behavior.
Now, you might think by my last message that I meant alpha rolls ONLY happen to show dominance in general, well no, that is not what I meant, that is just a part of a whole big picture, look at this for example: watch?v=v_CLbV1Y16Y&list=FLXrWqxsOb5PkH14Udb0nEqA&index=10&feature=plpp_video THAT is an "alpha roll." Now did the GSD just decide to go and roll the Lab? No, it did not, it's "resource"guarding the girl at the end.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@xWolfHauntx I didn't see an alpha roll in this video. I saw a dog already on it's back trying to appease a very poorly socialized GSD who didn't know enough about the rules of canine behavior to leave the submissive dog alone. Like the GSD, you are missing the point. Canines first and foremost try to diffuse potentially dangerous and injurious situations. VOLUNTARILY rolling over is one way they do it. Had those been actual wolves the conflict would have ended then. It's a matter of survival.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Thank you for proving my point exactly. I never said the alpha roll was justified, now did I? The point was, THAT is considered an alpha roll, see? Bigger picture, and it's flying right over your head. Just like not everything a human does is justifiable, well it's the same for dogs. Now, I thought this would be obvious, but I guess you are stuck in your own cloud fallacy, if the GSD was raised properly would it even have been resource guarding the owner? No.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@xWolfHauntx Your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance. An alpha roll is the use of physical force to turn a canine onto its back. The video you provided did not show that. It showed one dog already on its back - and I'd bet anything that it got there on its own - trying to appease another poorly socialized dog.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 And I gave you other examples, better examples of alpha rolls, once again, you are going under my words to try and sound right. The GSD video was to show you that alpha rolls are a wide variety of "acts" between dogs and wolves, it not just a simple, dog pushes over dog until it falls over and rolls onto it's back, it's much more complicated than that, and like I said, unless you've been studying dog behavior(NOT dog training) and actually taught it, then you wouldn't know.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Now, being as I don't care for people who try to pull the words under words ploy, I'm done here, you're not going to admit you are wrong, and I am not going to agree with your theories, so let's just agree to disagree. I stop any arguments between clicker eating trainers before they get embedded too deep because I know from experience that it's hopeless. I made my mark on this video and I don't care to keep coming back to it.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@xWolfHauntx I am a professional dog trainer and I work too often with dogs that have been mistreated by "trainers" who try to impose "dominance" on dogs they believe ought to be "submissive." The alpha roll is one of the more popular tools in the arsenal of these fools. If you are one of them... so be it. There is a marked unwillingness among many "professionals" who have been "doing this for decades" to accept the findings of science when it contradicts their dearly held beliefs.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 See, that's your problem right there, you thinks you are god's gift to the dog world since you are a professional trainer, and I am betting you are one of those clicker happy all positive ones too. And if you are going to keep going under my words just to try and make yourself sound right, then this argument is void. I have already said MULTIPLE times that dog owners should NOT go willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, BUT, that does not mean that it does. not. exist.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 I never said I MYSELF alpha roll dogs, that would be asking for trouble, so put your trainer card back in your pants, and no, trainers should not do that when training, but that still does not meet with my whole point, that just because a trainer can't alpha roll a dog, does not mean it does. not. exist.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@xWolfHauntx That does not change the validity of the facts even a tiny bit. I've had enough experience trying to educate the intentionally obtuse to know that it's almost always useless. So go ahead, and have the last word... Your kind is dying out, Eventually the truth is accepted, but don't despair. I believe that the Flat Earth Society is still an active group. One day the Canine Dominance & Alpha Roll Society will be comforting its members as well as the world moves on and people chuckle.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Now, that doesn't mean wolves cannot be the same way, sure, most of the time, yeah, wolves are more "survival smart" and will end it before it gets bad, but when two dominant minds meet and don't want to yield to each other, then a similar thing can happen. And I am not "educated" by tv personalities online, it's called studying dog and wolf behavior extensively for decades, when you can teach several dogs and wolfdogs dog/wolf behavior, then you can come back at me.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@xWolfHauntx Had the GSD been raised and socialized properly, it too would have relented in its attack. The point had been made. Continuing to harass the other dog only risked escalating the encounter in a full-fledged fight because at some point that Lab would have started to fear for its life and fought back.
You are honestly ignorant on this subject. But you're not alone. The fallacy of "dominance" is perpetuated in our culture by supposed "experts" and TV personalities all the time.
amoom0 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Here's more proof: watch?v=1q9vx-CBueU See? Those are also considered "alpha rolls." And those are even wolves doing it. Now I can't say what they are snarking over because I didn't see the body language before the fight, but still, that's an "alpha roll." And look, the black wolf is even being "submissive" like the Lab with the GSD, and the white wolf still kept going, like I said before, sometimes "alpha rolls" are not justified, and perhaps not common, but they DO exist.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 Now, look at the brown and the white dog in this video: watch?v=HbosW91QWYs&feature=BFa&list=FLXrWqxsOb5PkH14Udb0nEqA&lf=plpp_video THAT was also considered an "alpha roll." Now what were they snarking over? The breeding female obviously. Now, look at the buff colored retriever looking dog and the black and tan dog, what is that buff dog doing? It's resource guarding the breeding female, same as the GSD in the other video with the owner.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 But see, this is calmer because the black dog is more "submissive," which and is showing avoidance, so there never was a need for "alpha rolls." So no, I am not wrong, I can just see a bigger picture that you unfortunately cannot.
And if you look at my first message, I SAID people should not go willy nilly alpha rolling dogs, it's not my fault you chose not to process that with the fact that I also said alpha rolls exist.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
@amoom0 And the proof is right there, did ANY of those dogs get their throats ripped out? No, Because see, that's EXACTLY what the "alpha roll" is, a show, dogs snark, but most of the time, they don't even really bite each other.
xWolfHauntx 3 weeks ago
This is not at all accurate. Tristan was a very established leader by the time these shots were taken, and yes, often this is what happens when the other wolf is submissive, however, how do you think Tristan was able to be alpha for 6 years? He fought with Miska for beta position and then broke away from there. However, I have seen Tristan do several alpha rolls to Wolfgang and Wonton, among others and in time, both those two disposed him as alpha, and how? by alpha rolling him into submission.
xWolfHauntx 1 month ago
Ok soo alphas are leaders of packs? What are omegas? Are alphas and omegas a type of wolf or are they just like regular type wolves but alphas and omegas are rankings in packs? Cuz I was watching alpha and omega and I didn't really get the movie...I thought omegas were white/grey wolves and alphas are brown or somthing........lol
Animallover11486 2 months ago
Video here would be much more helpful than a still-photo slide show. Way too many details we are missing in between frames.
PatBattleBF1942 2 months ago
The wolf bared his teeth in as a sign of aggression though?
hyenapeptic 2 months ago
Fantastic! For years I have known this and tried to promote it. Keep up the good work and show reality rather than macho wishful thinking.
k9komfortinn 4 months ago
Thanks for posting this. I'm a professional dog trainer and I tell my misinformed clients - all the time - that wolves and dogs offer this behavior voluntarily and that it is virtually never physically forced upon them.
In the exceeding rare instance that it is, the animal being attacked in such a manner can expect the next thing to happen is for its throat to be ripped out. Not exactly the frame of mind you want to inflict upon a family pet.
amoom0 4 months ago
Me and my wolf husky's movements look almost just like this. I am indeed the alpha male.
alexw 5 months ago
@alexw The more dominant male is not the alpha.... "Alphas" are the breeding pairs.
magicalcrazyness 4 months ago
@magicalcrazyness wrong. Alphas get to breed because they are more dominant obviously
alexw 4 months ago
@alexw Nope, that is not true. They used to think that because the original study on wolf behavior was through a group of wolves thrown together in a small caged environment. They studied wolves in the wild and it showed that almost every wolf gets to be an Alpha. The alpha is the breeding pair, the produce a litter and raise that litter being leader over them. Most people don't realize those wolves are actually a family. Google "Alpha" Wolf. It's a scientist explaining how the study was flawed
magicalcrazyness 4 months ago
@magicalcrazyness you're confusing yourself
alexw 4 months ago
@alexw Uhm... How? I've actually tried researching into these things from experienced people and not listening to old studies and word of mouth. The Alpha wolf IS the breeding pair, because the breeding pair raises the pups they give birth to. Every wolf becomes an alpha somewhere down the line if they breed. Like I said... watch that video.
magicalcrazyness 4 months ago
@magicalcrazyness keep repeating yourself. you won't change the fact that what you say is obvious and is nothing extraordinary. you're still confusing yourself
alexw 4 months ago
@alexw Sounds more like you're trying to confuse me. Oh well, I should expect inability to have an open mind from most people. Oh wellz,
magicalcrazyness 4 months ago
@magicalcrazyness you don't have an open mind. i am the parent, elder and also the leader of my dog. call me alpha
alexw 4 months ago
my standard poodle alpha rolls my other female. She barks and growls her down until she is on her back and yes, she does roll over on her own because my poodle does not have arms. My poodle is a doll and would never hurt any of her human family or bark or growl at us. I do not believe humans should use alpha rolls on their dogs though because you could ruin the relationship. My dogs are submissive to me without me over powering them with such a drastic move as a roll. Just my two cents.
Dreamydoodles 8 months ago
The communication of aggressive motivation or fighting ability has important fitness consequences for competing animals
Selection should favour rapid and honest communication between opponents to settle Dominance Relationships while Avoiding Prolonged and Intense Fighting.
Selection should favour rapid and honest communication between opponents to settle Dominance Relationships while Avoiding Prolonged and Intense Fighting.
- Erik Zimen
starwarssuck 10 months ago
The description of the interacctions of the pack on Ellesmere Island are Based on Mech own Interpretations.
He refers to the Alpha and to the Heriachal System on a very Simplistic maner like -'promoting friendly relations' or 'reducing social distance' or 'families' Statements Very open to Misinterpretations. (Very Conveniently isn't?)
So, Do Not act and talk like your stating proven facts!!...
starwarssuck 10 months ago
When those 'pure positive' Pigeons make the Reference of D. Mech Work they are talking about the results from a field study examining a Solitary Pack of Wolves in the wild completed by David Mech on 13 Summers on Ellesmere Island (1999).
The Dominance encounters are more common in the Winter months, several factors can affect the display of Dominance Ritual Behaviours.
The Observations show that, at least in Summer on Ellesmere Island the Wolfs displayed the behaviour Described by D. Mech
starwarssuck 10 months ago
@skinnydog - Have a look at davemech.org in the news section.
This is the guy who helped to start the Alpha myth 43 years ago, TELLING us he was wrong. He's been telling us this for years, but people like you just won't listen, and you even aply it to domestic dogs too. So sad. And Irresponsible.
And I must say your attitude probably reflects your behaviour towards dogs too. Again, so sad.
kessmarl 10 months ago
Comment removed
kessmarl 10 months ago
youtube.com/watch?v=8NJ9L7BUMiw
What the fuck is this
skinnydogkew 11 months ago
This video is absoulute bullshit. What planet are you on that you think you can "debunk" something by showing one confrontation from one wolf pack. You obviously have a moral standpoint on the alpha role and you are using this non evidence to suit your agenda. Get with it, alpha rolls happen... If you think that it doesn't then go study wolves yourself and find out, or even better read some studies from people who already have spent years with wolves and seen alpha rolls with their own eyes.
skinnydogkew 11 months ago 2
I always get down on the ground with the dog, roll around and make it as much fun to learn this as possible (soft, not hard surface).
Classically the "down" command is the method of obtaining submissiveness. However, a dogs tension may still be high in this position. Analogous to this is wild dogs prey behavior as they crawl on their bellies in a mock down position (is this submissiveness?- no. Neither is it relaxed). I'm not saying that a dog is incapable of aggression if it can roll over aro
gladdogs 1 year ago
derstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misund erstanding of the posturing of dogs in general. To get a dog to be less dominant in a pack I train the dog to roll over gently (and for the aggressive ones gradually), in other words "all the way over and up again". This combines a RELAXED spine (the dog can't flip around if it's tense) with a natural show of SUBMISSIVENESS (exposing the belly). RELAXED + SUBMISSIVENESS. = RELAXED SUBMISSIVENESS. I always get down on t
gladdogs 1 year ago
I train up to 13 dogs a day off leash and in a public park every day. Injuries from fighting or agression; about once a year or less. There seems to be a lot of confusion about justification for rolling a dog in training or handling. I don't use an Alpha "type" roll as a training technique at all, but to prevent wounds (handling). I don't believe in vet bills for not getting involved is all. Personally I think the misund erstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misun
gladdogs 1 year ago
I train up to 13 dogs a day off leash and in a public park every day. Injuries from fighting or agression; about once a year or less. There seems to be a lot of confusion about justification for rolling a dog in training or handling. I don't use an Alpha "type" roll as a training technique at all, but to prevent wounds (handling). I don't believe in vet bills for not getting involved is all. Personally I think the misunderstanding stems from an underlying misuse of the "down" command and misund
gladdogs 1 year ago
Lobos adultos forçam os filhotes a fazerem o Alpha Roll quando os mesmos incomodam de mais, lobos adultos entram em posição de submissão por si só.
Sendo que o cão tem a mentalidade equivalente à de um filhote de lobo, o Alpha Roll não está errado como um todo, o unico porém é o humano saber fazer e reconhecer em que momento se usa.
AMVselection 1 year ago
@AMVselection I would like to know who said that dogs are mentally like wolf cubs. Many studies indicate that this isn't true.
Ladwys2503 1 year ago
@Ladwys2503 That would be Stephen Lindsay in the bible..... "applied dog behaviour and training".
From the studies of "Fox 1967, 1971"
"Zimen 1987", "Frank and Frank 1982", "Coppinger and Schnieder 1996".
What are the studies are there that say this isn't true?
skinnydogkew 11 months ago
Muito bem colocado. O lobo não é forçado a fazer, ele o faz sozinho em sinal de deferência ao outro, o líder não o força. Então porque as pessoas acham que se fizerem um cão (parente tão distante dos lobos) a deitar desta forma ele será submisso ä elas?
YaraHZ 1 year ago
I understand that a submissive wolf would do it out of respect, but what happens if he doesn't submit voluntarily? The point of the Alpha roll is when the dog will not submit. I don't condone it's use in virtually any situation as dogs who truly refuse to submit are very rare.
slicksps 1 year ago
...so says the stay at home fat cow, old and used up... suffering from a human version of the mad cow disease
marktsheppard 1 year ago
Good video, but it begs some questions:
What was the sex of each wolf?
What is the relationship between the two wolves (mates, siblings, parent/child ect)?
Whose kill was it (or who found it if it was already dead)?
What was the environment of the wolves (captive, wild)?
And lastly, which wolf was really in control of the encounter? The one who created the friction or the one who defused it?
m1ssymay 1 year ago
But how does the alpha establish himself in the first place? The alpha shoves other wolves on their back when they -don't- roll over submissively like that, and the other wolves learn that the alpha is in charge so they do as they're told from then on.
MrZyxie 2 years ago
The word "alpha" is generally considered outdated and has been replaced with the phrase "breeding pair".
A wolf pack is a small family group in which the younger wolves are submissive to the elder wolves, the breeding pair. When they grow up, they wander off to find mates and start their own family, becoming the "alphas" (breeding pair) of a new pack.
Check out wolf . org for lots of information about my favourite wild animal. :-p
ZW4929 2 years ago
Ooh, that's pretty cool... but it's still true that in a pack you have a hierarchy where the weaker animals will submit to the stronger, right?
My cats were doing it earlier today, in fact... the big one was eating and the smaller one started to get too close so the big one hit him over the head and he rolled over saying "Go ahead, eat your food, don't hurt me ;'(" Pretty cute at the same time as interesting :P
MrZyxie 2 years ago
Would be a nice video if not for the false info at the end.
dracius85 2 years ago
Yes Thank You for showing this and how the rest of the pack respects the alpha by walking away.
Stacey0202 2 years ago
THANK YOU! Bookmarking this to show to all those people who go "but wolves do it!"
abserdman 2 years ago