Part 20 of 22 - Muslim - Christian Dialogue - Dubai 2009

[karimkong]

My body is a part of me, just like my organs, my soul, my brain, all are a part of me. If one the things dies, i may not die, but i maybe incomplete. If i lose a hand, I maybe handless but may not die. So as a human being i can be incomplete, similarly if Jesus was a human being and supposedly got injured or died, he may be incomplete. But if he is God, then that completely negates him being a God, God can never be injured or killed. Read further

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - As I said before, would Allah approve of your using your reason to limit him? Jesus' living from newborn until death in a human "tent" enabled Him to die for your (and my) sins. If He didn't live and die as a man He could not have died for men's sins - He had to live a perfect, sinless life to die for our sins. Otherwise He would have been dying for His sins. He didn't die as God, He died as a man and returned to heaven as part of God.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett As again yesterday, youtube limited my comments :(. Anyways, Allah is limitless, Jesus however was limited, as he was subject to the laws of what you call a "tent". I am not sure where you got that reference from as Jesus and his body are not considered a tent in the bibile, havent seen that anywhere in the bible. So from what i am getting is that Jesus was not God but later became God? No where in the bible does it say that as far as i know, bible teaches he was God on earth aswell.

[karimkong]

Seems like Jesus the Son God worships another GOd. If Jesus is God and there is someone even more powerful than him that HE worships than THAT must be the True God. John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD. So the father must be the REAL TRUE GOD then...seems like Jesus acted like a muslim :)

[karimkong]

As far as Allah approving me of using reason and logic to limit him, that wouldnt happen. I cannot limit God. I agree with you on the stance that the human mind is very finite, and God is in-finite. However I do believe that God gave me a brain to reason what is logical and illogical, sure there are many things that i cannot grasp, but if the BASICS, just the VERY BASICS, if they do not add up and make sense, like trinity, then I would just be either decieving myself and believing blindly.

[zakuk77]

Trinity confusion is the no.1 reason why Christians are leaving the church and embracing Islam. Keep it up Thabiti :^)

[hasancyrus]

why would god tell u some thing in his book that u cant understand... thats just dumb..

this man is soo weak.. u need to understand ur bible more budy...

the muslim guy pointed out more that 18 contradictions in the bible ( the human bible) not jesus bible..but the cristian didnt find not even one thing wrong..

[fwfassett]

@hasancyrus - Just because someone doesn't understand does not necessarily mean there is a contradiction in the Bible. Have you read it? I've read the Qur'an. Do you realize the Qur'an explains human creation 3 different ways - none of them right?

[karimkong]

Correct...he did it give away his power willingly, therefore He was God no longer. Regardless if he gives it willingly or Unwillingly, he still gives his power away...therefore he can no longer be God. If he is no longer God, he cannot have the authority to take it up again, because he is no longer God because he gave it away. So Jesus is not God. God can never be overpowered, and if he allows himself to give it away or be overpowered, he is no longer God.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus never gave away his power. He put aside his glory in heaven, was born in a human body and gave His human life to pay the sin debt of all humans who believe in Him. His body died, but not his essence - His soul and spirit. He told His disciples many times that He would rise to life on the 3rd day. He told Pilate the only reason why he had power over Him was because it was given to him from above. See John 19:11

Read Bible at BibleGateway (dot) com

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Sorry i will have to reply in more than one box cause short of space.

With respect i have to disagree, as i see some form of contradiction in your statements. There seem to be some inconsistencies in the statements "Jesus never gave away his power. He put aside his glory in heaven..". What do you mean by never gave away his power, yet put aside his glory in heaven. So when he came to earth he wasnt glorious any more? See next pose

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Post 2. So if Jesus left his glory in heaven, and came to earth, he was no longer Glorious, therefore incomplete, and an incomplete God is not a God. Regardless, Jesus DID give away his power according to the bible, as he was OVER-powered by his enemies and Killed. So your statement is contradicting what the bible states. Now you may say well he was willing to do so for the sin of man kind, but regardless, he gave away his power voluntarily. See Post #3

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus took off His glory and put on a human "tent", but He did not become less God. He voluntarily came in a human tent so He could pay for the sins of the world, as a man. He was never overpowered.

"Then Jesus cried out, 'When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.'" John 12:44-45

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Post #3 This then brings me back to my previous posts, where Jesus voluntarily gave away or "put aside" his Gloriousness and left it in heaven, hence no longer a complete God, therefor not a God. Either you give away your power voluntarily or involuntarily, you lose it regardless. For example, Person A is the CEO of a company, and voluntarily gives up his position to person B, person A no longer has the authority to take back his position as the CEO from person B. See post #4

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus is not "a god" - He is part of the triune God. You are not your body, or just your mind, or just your spirit - you are all three in one person. In your example of the CEO - is he still the CEO if he leaves his office, goes to another place? If he takes off his suit and wears jeans? He may not look the same, but he's still the CEO.

[karimkong]

If jesus is "not 'a god', then he is not God. That is the point of Islam exactly. You said it yourself best. You also said he is part of a triune God, but not God, so thats completely contradictory. Wt you are saying is that he changes clothes but does not lose his CEO-ship. Here is the problem with that statement, it would make sense if God came onto earth and was not limited by disguising himself into a subordinate employees position. Let me explain further in another post

[karimkong]

If the CEO disguieses himself as a janitor, he is still the CEO, BUT he cannot be fired by a real Janitor. The point is CEO becomes subject to the lower laws of the subordinate employee.. You ever hear a clerk or a janitor firing a CEO in disguise?See the point is the CEO can fire the employee, but the employee CANNOT fire the CEO. However Jesus was "FIRED" so to speak by the employee. So your changing the Clothes analogy is incorrect.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Again, glory is not power. I already addressed the CEO question - he's still CEO not matter where he goes or what he wears.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Post 4. Your statement "He told Pilate the only reason why he had power over Him was because it was given to him from above" would be wrong because actually Jesus voluntarily "put aside" his glory or power in heaven. However Pilate did have power over Jesus, as he carried out his execution. If Jesus was God, he would have with out a slight ounce of energy have overpowered Pilate. But he did not, yet he willingly let himself be killed by others, how can God be overpowered?! See post 6

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Yes, He allowed the Romans to crucify and torture His body - that's why He came. But He told Peter to put away his sword, saying "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" Matthew 26:53-54 He was not overpowered - He laid His life down.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett I meant post 5 sorry. If God gives up his power voluntarily or even dies...then he is no longer God. If jesus is God and dies or doesnt have all his glory or is incompete or is overpowered, he can no longer be God logically. This just pure logic. The other statement "His body died, but not his essence - His soul and spirit". Let me get this straight, so the body of Jesus was not part of Jesus?? See post 6

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus told his disciples many times He would be killed by the Jewish establishment religion, and that He would rise to life on the 3rd day. Your presumption that God would not allow Himself to be killed is just that - a presumption. What would your Allah say if you told him that he cannot do whatever he pleases?

[karimkong]

God can do whatever he pleases true, But if he kills or limits himself, by definition he loses his capability of being God. If someone kills god or overpowers Him, then THAT person or entity is God. Its very Basic, who is the MOST in might and power, mercy and everything, in very very basic terms if you would like it goes to My God is stronger than yours, because he is bigger and better in all terms, therefore he deserves the true worship, Very basic and logical definition is what i am going by.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Post 6.For example, you have a heart and a body. Both are part of each other, and one cannot function without the other. If the body dies, the heart dies. If the heart dies, the body dies. Therefore both are a part of each other correct? Similarly Jesus's soul, spirit, body were all a part of Jesus the God. If jesus was God, if one of the part of God dies (the body dies), then God is no longer complete, hence an incomplete God. By definition an incomplete God is not a God. See post 7

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Post 6 - Interesting that you feel you can decide what makes a god. Does Allah have a body, a heart, legs? Jesus tells His disciples when they are resurrected they will be given a new body, which will never decay or be sick. His resurrected body was able to pass through walls, appear instantly or disappear. He ate with the disciples, so He wasn't just a spirit which appeared. Our resurrected bodies will be like His. Jesus was not His human body, neither are you.

[karimkong]

My definition of God is based on simple logic. He is One, the Eternal (never dies), he does not beget nor is begotten, and NOTHING can be Unlike unto him. He is the MOST powerful, most merciful, NOTHING can LIMIT HIM, He cannot be overpowered, Cannot be killed, Cannot be Incomplete in ANY WAY! These are just a few basic things that characterises God. As for my body and I, what you are saying is not very logical, How can my body not be a part of me.Read next post

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Post 7. God is whole, and complete, and cannot be incomplete be in it in his power, his glory, or in anyway, or be overpowered, or lose his power (voluntarily or involuntarily). All of this is logic. So logically, trinity does not make sense. If the basic pillar of Christianity does not make sense, well then one will be faced with difficulties thereafter. Nothing can be greater than God, again he cannot be incomplete, he cannot be lowered, overpowered or anything. See post 8

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Do you personally know Allah? You are insisting upon God conforming to your expectations, your "logic". Jesus gave His body for a sacrifice to God's punishment for sin. The basic pillar of Christianity is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Secondly "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Thanks for your replies. I wanted to write more yesterday, but unfortunately youtube would not let me write further. Your replies brings up more further questions. My definition of God, its simple, basic and logical, doesnt matter what your religion is. God is all one true, most merciful, most gracious, cannot be incomplete in anyway, cannot be limited by anything, or killed. Nothing can be higher than God, he does not need to worship anything as he himself is God.

[karimkong]

God cannot be overtaken by anyone voluntarily or involuntary. God is most loving, and most merciful and most severe in punishment. I will now post replies to each of your statements, hopefully youtube wont limit me like yesterday

[karimkong]

Plus if Jesus "The Man" God is overpowered and killed by his enemies.... then he can no longer be God. No one can over power God, If someone or something overpowers God, than that Overpowering entitiy is God. Therefore his enemies had more power than God and killed "the man god". Being if God willing or unwillingly gives up his power, he still is no longer God. So coming back to Anyabwile's analogy of siames twins, its like saying one of the siamese twins died, therfore one is left.

[karimkong]

So if one siamese twins is left, therefore Half of the original are left, therefore Half a God is left. Therefore there is an incomplete God...therefore not a God. Well..I know some respected Christians say "well the body died, but not the spirit". I am still confused though, because Jesus the "Man" God, still included the body. The body was still a part of God(+ the spirit). If the body died, then Spirit is alive but now its God the Father, and half of the man God...Therefore 0.75 God.

[karimkong]

And I know respected Christian Scholars have said the trinity is not 1+1+1, it is 1X1x1. Therefore if Jesus the "Man" god died, it will be 1x1x0= 0. If Jesus' body died but not the spirit, then it will be 1x1x(0.5(spirit)x0(the body))= 0. Then there is no God, atleast if you add it up, there is still atleast half a God, but an incomplete God, cannot be a God. Sorry for 4 comments, would not all fit in one.

[karimkong]

I understand, that what Mr. Anyabwile is saying. "Siames twins, connected, 2 different persons, but one being in a sense. The Egg with its white, and yoke, etc, etc...God is one being in three persons...'Fully God and Fully man'..joined together in cause .. and Jesus Dying does not mean His Deity has seized to exist." That still confuses me. If Jesus the "Man" is god, and the Man is overpowered, tortured and Killed. That Man part of God is dead. Therefore Half is left.

[adamz101]

luke 22:36- jesus was prepared to fight

Mathew 26:39- jesus cried for help from god

Hebrews 5:7- god answered his prayers

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

[nisha1631]

your comments are really silly

[fwfassett]

@adamz101 - Luke references (22:36) was where Jesus told His disciples to get a sword - because He was going to die and would not be able to protect them as He had. In Matthew 26:39 He was praying (as a man) for the cup of torture and crucifixion to be removed from Him - He was afraid of the pain and suffering, but He submitted to Father God's will, as it says in Heb 5:7.

[karimkong]

Thanks for proving what i had said. 1st off, no where in the bible does it say that when Jesus prayed, only the Man part of the Jesus God prayed, but not the God part. Thats an interpretation you seem to be coming up on your own to justify the paradox that how can God pray to another God or himself, or else it doesnt make sense. I similarly can interpret that the God part of jesus prayed to another stronger more powerful God the Father. Read further

[karimkong]

Plus if Jesus was God, how come the MAN part overtook the God part?. God part is stronger and more powerful than the MAN part, so should not be subject to the weakness and limitations of the man part. But again no where in the bible does it say that when jesus was in pain or fear or worshipping, the Man part of the Jesus God took over. For arguments sake even if the Man part tookover, it over took the God part! So the God part was overpowered by the Man part, therefore God part was not God.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus was not divided into parts. While He was on earth he lived in a human tent/skin, limited by his bodily needs - eat, sleep, drink, etc. He had to be tempted and be sinless as a man. But the man part didn't overtake the God part, The Bible says several times He withdrew to a quiet place to pray - probably to plan the day with Father God. (For arguments sake - his vision was limited by his human body, but Father God was still in heaven and would have a better overview.)

[karimkong]

Thank you, your comment further prove the points i was already stating from before. Main point being...Jesus the son God was as you say "LIMITED by his bodily needs..". Which contradicts what you had said earlier that Jesus never lost his power, however as you said his body limited him, therefore limited the God power of Jesus the Son Man god. God cannot be limited...henceforth no longer a God. Which is what i have been saying in the past comments. The father then is the Real God, not jesus.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett And so from all of your comments, what i am seeing that Jesus on earth was Not God correct as he was limited to the laws of earth? And throughout the Father had the upper hand in all, as even Jesus the Son God worshipped him.

[karimkong]

You said that the man part didnt over take the God part. This again seems to be your interpretation that the man part overtook when Jesus the Son god was feelin pain, etc, but not the God part. How can man overtake God?!! However there is nothing in the bible that states this, how are you coming to these conclusions? However the most important thing you said is "Jesus was not divided into parts" at all, therefore, Jesus The Son God was then indeed feelin pain, and killed, hence no longer a god.

[sanileo]

wonderful question.