Satan: Bound, Yet Active - Examining Amillennialism

[encompasser]

I'll let 2 Corinthians 4:4 solve the issue. ' In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.' So Satan's the god of this world yet is currently bound, shut up, and sealed? Amillenialism is a lie straight out of Catholicism and totally inconsistent with scripture.

[rolysantos]

Was Satan bound when he asked permission to afflict Job? If God had said "no" he could not have afflicted Job. Since God said "Yes, but don't kill him," Satan was bound in that he could only go so far. Yes, Satan was bound at the cross under orders from God that he could not prevent the "nations," the gentiles from believing the gospel and "seeing the light." (2 Cor 4:4).

[rolysantos]

"Think about it logically" yet he is not thinking logically; There was darkness before the resurrection and Satan has always taken people captive to do his will. But, the people walking in darkness have seen a great light (The Gospel) which does free those God has chosen (the elect) from darkness and transfers us into his kingdom of light. Yes, God is sovereign, but Satan is tool in his hand (Isaiah 10). This man does not understand and he leads others astray with his convoluted logic.

[mikebeange]

If Satan is bound right now, I'd hate to see what the world would be like if he wasn't. Furthermore, how can he be bound and still active? And if he is, what's the purpose of being bound in the first place!?

It says in Rev. 20:3 that he is bound in order to keep him from DECEIVING the nations! Sorry guys, but when I look around I see plenty of deception in this world; especially in the church! So much for being bound. Amillenialism is silly.

[lumpyplop]

wow...i dont agree with a thing you are saying. the thousand years has not yet begun. The thousand years is AFTER Armageddon, when Satan will be be bound, he will then be released after the thousand years to again test man kind on his faith to god. Satan is among us, now, and has been since, I believe, 1914, with his demons turning people against god and his fellow brother causing chaos and upheaval.

[Italianlad69]

You perverted your logic unto your "flock". (The sheeple we know them to be) Satan bound does NOT me his inability to PREVENT the Gospel from being preached (I assume you're an Evangelist, so you just used your own denomination to promote your own dogmatic propaganda) it means his ability to pull the strings politically Internationally, he sublets his own messages through media and spreads HIS OWN "gospel" any way he can, THAT HIS HOW WE KNOW HE STILL DECEIVES THE NATIONS...

[mikebeange]

I think it’s kinda ironic that most Christians who identify themselves with ‘reformed theology’ who believe in Calvinism and God’s sovereign plan and purpose, also believe in ‘replacement theology’ which says that the church replaces Israel and thus amillennialism is the only true explanation of the book of Revelation. Why don't you just take the bible and interpret it which ever way you want? Thats the ONLY way you can come up with this! I mean, how inconsistant can you get!?

[theheat151]

@mikebeange Calvinists do NOT believe in Replacement Theology. We believe in Covenant Theology, which teaches that the Church in the OT was Israel, and Israel in the NT is the Church. If you read Stephen in Acts 7:37-38, he calls those who were with Moses both Israel and the Church. Paul calls the Body of Christ "the Israel of God" in Galatans 6:16.

Quit misinterpreting Calvinism like the Arminian that you are.

[mikebeange]

@theheat151 A lot of calvanists that I have personally met do believe in Replacement theology! And BTW, I'm not Arminian, I'm a Calvanist myself! Sort yourself out

[theheat151]

@mikebeange What Calvinist is this? I have met not one Calvinist who believes in Replacement Theology. And if Amil isn't true then what is? Are you Historic Premil, Dispensational Premil, or Postmil?

By the way, it's Calvinist and NOT Calvanist. I thought you said you were a Calvinist?

[mikebeange]

@theheat151Any CALVINIST who believes in Amillenialism is believing in Replacement theology. Because that is what Amillenialism is! Amill teaches that the church has replaced Israel and that is where you get replacement theology from. It's inconsistent with Calvinism! At least an Arminian who believes Amill has a consistent belief system even if it is in error. That is the original point I was trying to make. A Calvinist who believes in Amill has a belief system that contradicts itself.

[mikebeange]

@theheat151 As far as my personal end-times beliefs are concerned, I am a pre-millennialist who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. I do not believe in either full covenant OR dispensational theology. I think there is truth in both but not enough to fully support one over the other. I’m sure you will now take plenty of time to mock me for that so knock yourself out.

[theheat151]

@mikebeange If you had said that you were Historic Pre-mill, then I would said nothing, but I see that you hold to the heretical eschatology known as Futurism.

[mikebeange]

@theheat151 No I don't. There is nothing heretical about believing the rapture happens BEFORE the tribulation and that the kingdom is a literal earthly kingdom for 1,000 years.

[aphobos1521]

McClarty does not believe the gospel existed prior to the death and resurrection of Christ (3:20-46). One wonders how Paul could announce himself to the Romans as being "set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son" (Rom 1:1-2). Does he not know that the gospel was announced in advance to Abraham (Gal 3:8)? That the Israelites had the gospel preached to them under Moses (Heb 4:2)? Satan was not so ignorant.

[ksarver13]

Satan is bound in the invisible earthly spiritual realm now and when released Satan and final Antichrist will come to the visible earthly realm with the purpose of deceiving the unbelieving nations to attack the believing nation. Hoekema goes to far with what "deceiving the nations" means in Rev 20. I follow Sam Storms more in that the nations being deceived are unbelievers and that the freedom of the gospel to spread is really a by product of the binding of Satan as described in Rev. 20.

[ksarver13]

Satan is bound in the invisible earthly spiritual realm now and when released Satan and final Antichrist will come to the visible earthly realm with the purpose of deceiving the unbelieving nations to attack the believing nation. Hoekema goes to far with what "deceiving the nations" means in Rev 20. I follow Sam Storms more in that the nations being deceived are unbelievers and that the freedom of the gospel to spread is really a by product of the binding of Satan as described in Rev. 20.

[heckyeadude1]

this a very weak view on eschatology..

[espunde]

This is one reason why I became an historical premillenialist. Amillenialism, while I share affinities with it due to my covenantal rather than dispensational hermeutic, is very unsatisfying when it comes to this particular part of eschatology. Satan's bondage is not that he is on a long leash, he is sealed completely in the pit for the thousand years, with his activity having ceased for that time.

[WatchAlan]

If satan is bound, his chain is too bound!

[WatchAlan]

If satan is bound now, his chain is too long!

[carstenstampe]

Diligentile,

I think you need to mock and rebuke Christ for saying these words

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

(John 12:31-32)

...I mean how can the prince of this world (the devil) be cast out, and yet still be active in this world?

...And all of your faithful audience laughed Christ to scorn!

[diligentile]

Carstenstampe,

Jim goes over this in length in message 046 of the John study, around the 25:00 mark on after.

[mrm675]

Jesus said he bound Satan in Matthew 12, yet 1Peter 5:8 says the devil wanders around devouring people. And the bible does not contradict itself. So why impose on the Scriptures the logic that "bound" MUST mean pinned to the ground and powerless? He is bound and yet he is also wandering about seeking whom he may devour! Open your mind, Christians!

[diligentile]

@mrm675 Could you plunder a strong man's house if he were not actually bound? Why do you impose on the Scriptures the idea that Satan is not bound since it is quite clear that the Nations are still very much being deceived.

[diligentile]

@mrm675 @mrm675 Could you plunder a strong man's house if he were not actually bound? Why do you impose on the Scriptures the idea that Satan is not bound since it is quite clear that the Nations are still very much being deceived.

[diligentile]

@mrm675

Could you plunder a strong man's house if he were not actually bound? Why do you impose on the Scriptures the idea that Satan is not bound since it is quite clear that the Nations are still very much being deceived.

[amithp013]

@mrm675 I agree with you. John mentions 3 things about Satan in Rev 20:1-3. 1. He is seized. 2 He is bound. 3 He is thrown in abyss where he is locked and sealed. This passage is saying one and the same thing over and over again that God has put some restrictions on unfettered activities of Satan.

[mrm675]

I don't hear anything in this clip that defeats the Ammillenial position. Do you suppose Jesus was confused when he said: "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

Now I ask you, Mr. McClarty, who's the strong man, and why did Jesus bind him? What is the effect? Was this a waste of time and effort?

[diligentile]

@mrm675 Could you plunder a strong man's house if he were not actually bound? Why do you impose on the Scriptures the idea that Satan is now bound since it is quite clear that the Nations are still very much being deceived.

[jofo817]

Apostles Peter and Paul did "not" teach Satan is bound (1 Pet 5:8, 1 Thess 2:18) and this was after the resurrection.

[mrm675]

And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first BIND THE STRONG MAN? and then he will spoil his house." (Matthew 12:27-29)

Pray tell, is this not Jesus speaking of his work binding Satan? If not, what is he talking about?

[diligentile]

It says Satan is bound so that he would not deceive the nations. It does not say that only the capacities of Satan in regards to deceiving is bound. A person is being bound, not a capacity or power.

[RMCDisciple]

Perhaps the millenium is in Heaven and populated by the deceased Saints. Not an EARTHLY millenial reign. According to Revelation 20:4, 6, the saints will reign with Jesus for 1000 years. Revelation 20 does not say they will reign on earth during that time but thet they will simply reign.

I'm lead to believe that the millennium as described in Rev. 20:4-6 refers to the present reign of the souls of deceased believers with Christ in heaven.

[RMCDisciple]

You all may find " An evening of eschatology" on Google and watch the video. It is moderated by John Piper.

For two hours John moderates a discussion of the millenium, more or less, a discussion among Jim Hamilton (professor of New Testament at Southern Seminary in Louisville), Sam Storms (pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City), and Doug Wilson (pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho).

Great Video

[DorianAnthony777]

If we are in the millennium, and satan is bound, one of the characteristics of the millennial reign, why would peter say that Satan walks about... it is a simple, yer unanswered question tthat has not yet received an answer. Are we beating our swords into plowshares, does the lamb lay with the lion... All the characteristics of being in the millennium, whether you take it literal or spiritual, are not happening...

[DorianAnthony777]

the binding of Satan marks the beginning of the millennium... Good place to start... at the beginning...

[DorianAnthony777]

If it happened at the beginning of the church age, then Peter and Paul must not have been aware of it, They said he is loose.... If the binding of Satan only symbolizes the free run of the gospel without hindrance, That belief doesn't line up with reality, for the gospel is meeting Much hindrance, today....

[DorianAnthony777]

the issue is not the end times as a whole, just the thousand year reign...

[KeeperOfTheWord]

Sorry folk, but this is very shoddy work.

[diligentile]

Shoddy work? Shoddy work is saying that Satan is still on the prowl despite being bound, chained, and sealed up.

[KeeperOfTheWord]

James' critique applies equally to his own view -- no more deceive the nations. Meanwhile, as Satan is not bound, you might want to rethink grace, election, justification, assurance, perseverance and philosophy of ministry. All this for a Jewish millennium? It seems disingenuous to say the least. I suggest studying structure as an aid to theological meaning. And as Jesus' cross work was also an exorcism (Jn 12), I suggest seeking another resolution of the data.

[DorianAnthony777]

Can you explain the involved scriptures, if Satan is bound to deceive the world no more, than explain the emergent church, Islam, moral disintegration in the church, and out... If we are in the millenium, then what is going on ? Why is everything going straight down the toilet?

[KeeperOfTheWord]

Hey Tony! I recommend reading Re 20 for theological purpose. The function of the 1,000 years is limited to contrasting the destiny of the followers of the beast and the lamb respectively. That the cosmos is slated for the toilet, not renewal (Ro 8:21) affirms that grace, election and perseverance face major revision. American evangelicalism and a dab of Calvinistic soteriology dont mesh. I think that the tension between this eschatology and reformed faith pushes us toward neo-Gnosticism.

[diligentile]

Is it also fair to say that Amillennial spiritual interpretation pushes us toward numerology and Howard Camping date setting?

[KeeperOfTheWord]

Odd that you reference Harold. I have some familiarity with him since his former church (Anaheim CRC) is theologically close to my own. It happens that numerology was exactly where he began to turn aside. Then he discovered dispensationalism and hasnt looked back since! A synodical deputee made a point of travelling across the US a while ago to inform CRC classes about him. He is a problem, but he certainly isn't OUR problem.

[DorianAnthony777]

@KeeperOfTheWord - O.K. lets deal with Revelation 20 starting with verse one ...Satan is 1)CAPTURED, 2)BOUND with a chain, 3) THROWN into the abyss, 4) SHUT IN, and 5) SEALED in the pit..

This supposedly happened at the Cross. (or Pentecost) AND...

...This was the Beginning of the millennium and runs concurrent with the Church Age.

Question. Who let Satan loose to "walk about seeking who he may devour" 1Peter 5:8?

[KeeperOfTheWord]

Deal with Revelation 20 beginning at verse 1? Pray tell--whatever for?

John's vision report (meaning the book of Revelation) is to be read in its entirety.

If it looks to you as if I'm bringing a ship load of premises to the text, believe me when I tell you -- what you say looks the same to me.

[DorianAnthony777]

@KeeperOfTheWord

According to amillennial theology, Satan is RIGHT NOW bound and sealed in a bottomless pit, yet while he has been bound since the cross.

1) He was active in the lie of Ananias- Acts 5:3

2) He tempts married people to sin 1 Corinthians 7:5

3) He Hindered Paul in seeking the Thessalonians - 1 Thess 2:18

Someone who is bound seems to have much freedom to do his deeds...

[KeeperOfTheWord]

I may be wrong, but I'd guess that a-millennials don't believe that Satan is in a bottomless pit. I spoken to theological purpose and the study of structure for meaning already. Of course, I've also intimated that the eschatology seen here really doesn't fit reformed theology. Surely you can search out at least some of these things on your own. By the way -- I identify not with a-millennialism per se but rather with Moltmannian eschatology.

Blessings!

[DorianAnthony777]

@ KeeperOfTheWord You have not answered how Satan bound still has freedom to do his deviltry It is clear that... ok as for Moltmann, something smells emergent, and i am not familiar with his work.... have to look into it before i open my mouth and insert foot...

[KeeperOfTheWord]

Emergent, esmergent! Tony -- What you see as a contradiction is by no means unsurmountable for a-mills. They needn't even base the "binding" on Re 20 (Jesus' strong man, exorcising Satan -- Jo 12:31).

My eschatological thought isn't "bound" to time or sequence, etc. John uses many literary devices. I think the "1,000" years is one of them.

If Satan freely devours whom he will, where is the perseverance of the church?

This eschatology undercuts reformed soteriology.

[DorianAnthony777]

@KeeperOfTheWord if it is not insurmountable, then someone give me an answer, how can Satan be bound and free to do his evil at the same time...Even though your escatology is not bound to time or sequence, world events are...

There is a sequence in which things are to happen as we approach the consumation of this age, The bible says how they are ordered,

is specifically stated in the Bible, I am premill, and when that is challenged by someone who is amil, i have questions...

[DorianAnthony777]

@KeeperOfTheWord as you can see from my last two posts, i am getting past my bedtime...LOL.. Thanks for the good conversation

perhaps we can converse again tomorrow....God Bless...

[GPLeague]

Comparing the amil. position to arminianism? *COUGH* cheap shot *COUGH* Most reformed believers through the ages have been amil. Otherwise, a fairly good critique. I see why he's so caught up on this, but I just don't see why, in a book filled with symbols where numbers are consistently used symbolically, that he can't understand the imagery used regarding satan being bound. In the OT, almost no gentile converts. Now? Tons of them. I think that's the point.

[4570sharps]

Bravo, amen!

[4570sharps]

I absolutely love diligentile and his fantastic youtube channel which makes it only that much more puzzling as to why I'm being edited.

[4570sharps]

I now see that two premillennial supporters posts are missing from last night too. diligentile would have had no motive to delete their posts. Sorry

[petemillner]

Sharps, could the Strong man in the house in Matt 12 not be seen as a single demon inhabiting a person?

[4570sharps]

petemillner, apparently I'm being edited here and the scriptures are not being allowed to speak in their entirety on the subject of Satan's chains. Please read 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 (the disobedient angles are already in chains/pits of darkness, etc.) then re-read Rev 20 and listen to video again and try not to laugh and those who laugh at us.

[petemillner]

I have to tell you, I can't see Rev 20 (or 19, 18 etc) in the context of having already happened. I think the real issue here is what is Tartarus?

[4570sharps]

In Revelation, when John says "then I saw...", the amillennialist takes this to be the beginning of a new vision within a series of visions while the historic premillennialist sees it as a reference to chronological sequence within the same continuing vision. This is really the heart of the debate and many books by many men I love and look up to have been on either side of this issue. Without Revelation Chapter 20 what is the emphasis of the NT and our future hope? What r we looking forward to?

[4570sharps]

As far as tartarus is concerned, all I want to say is keep 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 in you mind while you listen to the video again. All his points are very puzzling in light of these verses and I took great offense at the whole "Arminians and Amillennialists have the same hermeneutic" comment.

[4570sharps]

Jesus's coming has already bound Satan Matt 12:29

"Or how can someone enter a strong mans house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."

[diligentile]

You think that Jesus' short parable on casting out demons is a commentary on what is happening in Rev. 20?

[4570sharps]

Look at the other scriptures I have provided (satan and his angles are already bound) and then what do you say Matt 12:29 means?

Jesus was able to expel demons b/c he already bound Satan (the strong man) beginning with Jesus victory over Satan during the temptation in Matt 4:1-11. Jesus demonstrated that Satan was powerless against Him (our second Adam), His work and His word.

Satan's house represents the sinful world

And it is Jesus who has come to plunder Satan's house (salvation).

[diligentile]

What significance does the use of "shutting and sealing" and later "releasing" of Satan have if they are all untrue in the normal sense of word meaning?

Does it then follow that the casting of Satan into the lake of fire in verse 10 is likewise untrue... And that there is actually a spiritualized way to understand it.

[4570sharps]

I'm not following u. Who said any of that is "untrue" or not literal? Are u saying then that Jude 6 and 2 Pet 2:4 are not literal? Are they not already under chains?

Wait a second, have u deleted my 2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 posts? Why? This kind of editing & inconsistency is proof of a failed argument. If u, being a brother in the Lord, are going to edit me and not allow for a true and open dialog and not allow the bible to speak for itself then I see no point in continuing with this discussion.

[diligentile]

Hi Sharps,

I have not edited any of the comments that I'm aware of. Sometimes there are bugs within the comment system.

[4570sharps]

I had a Jude 6 & 2 Pet 2:4 post here last night but I now have also noticed that two other pro premillennial supporters posts are missing now too. I'm sorry to have jumped to conclusions about you (I have been edited many times by Arminians and cultists on YouTube so I might be a little too paranoid about such behavior concerning you, sorry) You would have had no motive to have delete two of the other premillennial posts I now also see are missing. You need to look into that.

[GPLeague]

Oh, hey diligentile, don't think I ever told you this, but I went over to Dr. Riddlebarger's blog a while back and recommended that he watch your McClarty video on Riddlebarger's article and I actually got a response! I believe he said, among other things, that McClarty ignores the fact that John begins a separate vision in Rev. 20 with the words "Then I saw..." If you want his full response, I could pm it to you (as long as you don't go public w/ it or anything).

[diligentile]

Jim has a message covering this I believe... but check out Rev ch 19 and notice how many "then I saw, then I heard" variations there are.

If you take away the inserted chapter numbers and read... let's say chapters 18-21 straight through without interruption, it would be very difficult to come up with the "multiple retelling" interpretations.

[GPLeague]

Will do. I'm probably not doing his argument justice though. Maybe check out "A Case for Amillennialism" for a thorough explanation. Also, is McClarty dispensational pre-mil or historic pre-mil?

[4570sharps]

Question; Is the Apostle John seeing a vision (which symbolically tells us about literal events with real meaning told in a symbolic visual way) or has the Apostle John literally seen the future, telling us about the literal "video footage" of Satan being sealed and released? What is the normal sense of BIBLICAL word meanings? Could a literal physical metal chain really restrain Satan? Yet, according to Jude6 & 2Pet 2:4 what has happened to the angles who sinned?

[petemillner]

Or, is John seeing a vision (which symbolically tells us about literal events with real meaning in a symbolic visual way) regarding future events? Just askin.

[4570sharps]

??? I was "just askin" you could be "just answerin".

[4570sharps]

This is REALLY bad argumentation

2 Peter 2:4

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains (or pits) of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment..."

Jude 6

:And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—"

[4570sharps]

Jesus's coming already bound Satan;

Matt 12:29

"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."

Scripture CLEARLY teaches that Satan is still active and yet also bound by Christ. And, unlike what brother McClarty says at the very beginning, we amillennialists believe a lot more about this binding then just that Satan can "no longer deceive the nations".

[DefendingTheTruth]

Awesome! I was thinking about this message the other day. I'm glad you posted it. Pre-mill is the historical position of the early church.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It doesn't seem like Satan has been bound yet. : )