The P-47 was huge versus other WW II single engine fighters and cost a bunch more. While a smaller Mustang cost $53,000, a Thunderbolt cost almost $100,000. And the spitfire was even smaller than a Mustang. The air-cooled-twin-banked R-2800 put out 2000 HP with the 100 octane avgas used in the war. It put out 2300 HP with the 130 octane fuel the airlines used later in the Martin 404 and the Convair 240, among others. It put out 2500 HP with the 145 octane fuel the AF used in the C-123 Provider.
Ref. the Luftwaffe vs American fighters, American fighter pilots normally flew 50 missions, then went back to the Southern U.S. to become flight instructors. The bomber pilots flew 25-35 missions and went home to do the same. German pilots flew until they couldn't anymore. Some had artificial legs, etc. The high number of kills for a good number of Deutsch pilots came from more than a thousand sorties each, and those guys usually survived being shot down several times. And Johnson was an idiot.
The P&W twin was not *the* most powerfull engine. What about Napier Sabre, Bristol Centaurus, RR Griffon.. Fine engine nevertheless. Especially as it was available in numbers as early.
Ok I am sick and tired of people bashing the Browning.50 machine gun.It was a fine weapon and having 6 of those bad boys with a lead computing gunsight was one of the best gun platforms ever mounted.They were extremely effective and something that was highly feared.They could hold over 4 times as many rounds as anything else and fire around 3 times longer than any cannon ever mounted in a aircraft. The USAAF/USAF used them for decades to great affect. Hell we even used 'em in Korea with a 10/1KR
Well,Gabreski didn't care about computing gunsight,he was more like Hartmann:open fire at the closest range to ensure that your victim will fall out from the sky.
Gabreski didn't give a shit about computing gunsight,he followed Hartmann's method of firing at point blank range to save ammo and ensure the kill,so I'm not bashing him,that's all.
Gabreski didn't give a shit about computing gunsight,he followed Hartmann's method of firing at point blank range to save ammo and ensure the kill,so I'm not bashing him,that's all.
@Raubritter1488 As for the polish pilot, he was assigned Johnson's plane as the latter was not sked to fly. His squadron mates found him later on the deck, matching the FW 190 turn for turn, trying to run him out of gas over his own base, 350 miles from his. the reason? the jug's guns jammed.
@Raubritter1488 Which is fiction and which is not? were you there? Surely I was not. But, the accounts of R.S. Johnson would not be published by bantam books co-authored by martin caidin if it were propaganda invention. The novice pilots of the 56th FG faced the veteran yellow noses across the channel, and surely, they encountered losses heavily on the initial contacts. but, they slug it out with them germans, and pushed them back from the channel coast. And you cannot contest that.
Heinz Knoke shot down a P-47 piloted by a 17-kill ace with his burning 109.BTW,when you have a fucking idiot like Goring ordering you to attack only bombers and behave like there are no fighters,you're simply putting your head on a plate.
@Raubritter1488 not Goehring. Actually, it was Hitler. He was the idiot who forbid the use of the 262s as a fighter. As early as 1943, the 262 could be available had Hitler OK'd it. One instance, there was only 3 262 rising to meet the bombers. they downed 3 bombers. Meanwhile, there was more than 60 262s camouflaged in the woods intended to be wonder bomber. 8 AF carpet bombed the woods totally destroying all. think of the damage it could do if all 60 were up against the bombers
As far as I remember,Goering was the fucking idiot who ordered Jagdwaffe pilots to attack only bombers and you're wrong,the ME-262 couldn't enter in 1943 'cause it lacked engines(the Jumo 004B was still being improved and it was pretended to be used in Arado 234 bomber).And yes,the decision of converting the Me 262 into a bomber was simply insane.On March 18th,37 Me-262 from III/JG 7 attacked a formation of Fortresses and shot down 13 of them,Major Theo Weissenberger got three.
@Raubritter1488 Perhaps copying RAF tactics on BoB wherein the hurricanes blow thru fighter escorts. but, there was a division of labor on there. twas the hurricanes to tangle with the bombers and the spits to deal with the escorts.
Galland flew the 262 early in methink april 43. What implication it might have done had it been developed by that year/ Instead, Hitler was transfixed by its speed, declaring it his wonder bomber. KAPUT!
That was what Germans did,they tasked Messerschmitt Bf 109(which had good altitude performance) to engage the escort and FW 190 to deal with the bombers,but there were so many escort fighters that they overwhelmed 109's and wreaked havoc between the 190's.Indeed,Galland flew the 262 in April 1943 and he was simply wondered with it's spees:''it's like being pushed by an angel''-he said.But in 1943 there were problems with Jumo 004 engine 'cause it was to be used in the Ar 234,too.
@Raubritter1488 Naw, they tinkered the 109 with cannons, methanol drop tanks to deal with the bombers that affected its performance. when the escort fighters comes into equation, the 109s handles like a flying brick with all those cannons (they mounted some with big ones that jammed after 5 shots) and external plumbings. Besides, the 190 is dead meat above 20K ft alt. and the B-17s usually come at 22 to 25K.
I know the G-6/AS versions from spring 1944 and the G-10 from autumn of the same year,and both wariants aren't ''flying bricks'',both have nearly the same performance as the U.S fighters have at high altitude.BTW,the A-9 version of the Wurger had better performance than the A-8,and the Dora-9 was simply the best fighter of the whole WW2.The great Langnase-Dora!!!
@Raubritter1488 And talking about the bravery of the LW pilots. I think it was Barkhorn or one another who mentioned on their first encounter with the B-17s "My mind says we can't go in on that formation, but my hands and feet were already acting on their own, maneuvering my kite for an attack". Another one stated, :you did not need to commit suicide by ramming them. Just coming close to that box formation is already suicide".
It wasn't Barkhorn,I think that was Helmut Lipfert,a 203-kill ace from JG 52 and 53.It's very uncomfortable when you have to attack a numerous bomber formation with some hundreds of 0'50 cal. ready to fire.
And the 262's attack that I described before was on March 18th 1945,when the 8AF launched another raid over Berlin.But even the best aircraft is useless when you don't have enough trained pilots,fuel and raw materials like copper,for example.That's a shame 'cause it could enter as a fighter not in 1943,but even earlier(1942-43),but you know,lack of interest from the Luftwaffe HQ.
@Raubritter1488 sir, by 45, the germans were running out of veteran pilots due to attrition. Even Galland was flabbergasted when he heard of the plans to let HY fly the He 163.
Lack of interest from the LW? It's politics man. Galland and the rest of veteran LW pilots had altercation with Goehring. His solution? Form the JV 44 composed of all the rebel pilots (probably to quarantine them). Galland must me LOL! Their unit badge? Knight's Cross because all pilots were recipient of this medal.
Not only out of pilots,fuel was scarce and the industry was nearly dead.And I know that's the politics.First they though that the incoming victory will be achieved and later(BOB,1943) that fucking fat shit Goering was blaming even the pilots for his own failures and the rebellion of LW aces took place in 1945,and it was the very Hitler who saved Galland's ass and kicked the Goering's one.In JV 44 not all pilots vere KC holders,there were some guys with the German Cross in Gold,too.
@Raubritter1488 Industry dead? Man, when the 8AF started bombing, a/c production rose under Speer. He decentralised the A/C. Prior, rate was in hundreds of fighter. when he took over, it rose to thousands. The question is, who's gonna fly them?
and yes, there was also power play in LW, to the point that Udet has to commit suicide. Heck, even Himmler was patronizing the LW program. So, it was 'Heil Himmler" at that time.
I'm talking about the situation in circa 1945 and even Speer couldn't achieve more that he managed before.Look at the operation Clarion,the final blow against the Reich's communication system.
@Raubritter1488 At the BoB, galland was forced to ask Goehring for a squadron of spitfires. In his words, he preferred the 109 over the spit (of course). It's just the stubbornness of the OKL and notably the Reichmarshall to listen to them, fighter pilots. They were always blamed for the bomber losses due to poor tactics. He likened their situation to a dog on a short leash.
In the later part, them pilots were even charged for cowardice, preferring to bail out instead of fighting.
@Raubritter1488 Gabreski could have cared less about the lead computing gunsight. His plane has 8 50s, just squeeze the trigger and for sure he'll get some hits. Besides, he flying a p-47 not a p-51. the jug has not this feature.
I was not talking that he was fdlying a P-51,so where's the problem???BTW,''some hits'' don't always mean ''kills'' and the overclaiming was so Anglo-American feature...
@Raubritter1488 Whoa it up there Hoss. You're freakin' out over nothin'. I ain't about to get in a pissin' contest with you over your ability to not read a sentence correctly. I never implied that you were bashing anyone or anything. I was bashing the assholes and idiots who were talking trash about the Browning machine gun. That's it! Calm down, stop cussin'.
I'm talking about that the 0'50 has its limits,and it has to hit to inflict some damage as well as the 20 mm gun.If you fire at pioint blank range,you save a lot of ammo and ensure the kill,that's all,but it seems that you're too stupid to get what I'm talking about.
and did you ask me where i got that they shot down more plane than the other combined ? well i found it ,,, its on wiki a little more than half way down ,,, what me to cut and paste it ?
@lesterclaypool1 BTW I am only playing 'devils advocate' here. I also think that the P47 was an awesome aircraft. But there were some problems with having a fighter so big and heavy. WHich is why every other nation tried to keep their fighters as light as possible, so they could climb fast and were very agile. Also why EVERY other nation preffered cannon armament to .50 cal HMG.
@Xiolablu3 i cant say that the 50 cal was a bad gun ,,, it shot a round almost twice the 303s and is used today it was also the first thing on this planet to break the sound barrier ,,, it was also very important to the marines that flew agaisnt the japanese against the bettys and a6m and dy4 ,,, because the armour percing and incenderay rounds
@barneysixx Cannons are everything a .50 cal is and much more. WW2 20mm Cannons are explosive, fire almost as fast, carry more explosive and also solid AP shot which is much bigger than the 50 cal.
What can you use a 50 cal vs that you cant a 20mm Hispano cannon? Its more destructive vs EVERYTHING
@Xiolablu3 Volume of fire and round capacity. The .50 could knock anything out of the sky with enough rounds no matter what the size of the plane was. It had enough "punch" to get the job done. Plus they could hold over a thousand rounds that 20mm had far far far less rounds, and a much much much slower rate of fire. Which it didn't need it because 1 or 2 hits would knock anything out of the sky. But again a P-47, P-51, P-38 were flying at 370+ mph.In short cannon are better for big slow bombers
@Michaeldean88 No the 20mm did NOT have a much lower rate of fire, Hispano mk V was 800rpm. Cannons are better for every type of air combat, but the US didnt have a useable reliable cannon, you should read up on the WW2 USA 20mm debacle. Yes the .50 could get the job done with enough rounds, but then again so could the .303. Every major power in WW2 moved up to 20mm cannon as main fighter gun except the USA, even when they had a better .50mg than the browning to use, such as the Russians.
@Xiolablu3 Well yeah the Hispano cannon did have a 700-800rpm fire rate, but the Germans didn't use them asshole! They used the Mauser MG 151/20mm with a rate of fire around 680 rpm and only had 135 rounds for the god damn thing, or they used the Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk108 a 30mm cannon with if I remember correctly 65 rounds for the gun at a rate of fire of around 650rpm. Ok maybe I was wrong on the rates of fire, but you were wrong about the model of cannon.
@Michaeldean88 1 or 2 hits with a 20 mm will knock anything out of the sky? A, probably you haven't heard a jug with 21 20 mm hits and a 100+ hits with a 7.9 mm and that said plane still came home to England.
The 20 mm has a lower rate of fire, poor trajectory. The question is how many you can land against a moving target at a given time. The 50s has a higher rate of fire, good trajectory thus could land many hits on such a time. Thus, the 50 can inflict much damage compared to 20 mm
You're a little bit wrong,sir,the 20 mm explosive shells have a more destructive impact than the 0'50 ones.You should know the hexogen-munition introduced in 1943.There are some statistics saying that you need an average of 20-20 mm hits to bring down a viermot,so you should need a half of that to blow a fighter,and even a P-47 is not invulnerable to cannon shells.
@Raubritter1488 yes you are right. the 20 mm has more destructive power IF THEY HIT. As U have mentioned, it is the question of putting much lead to a moving target at a give time. Hence the 50 will win at any given time against the 20 mm due to its rate of fire and accuracy. Even the mig 15s succumbed to it while the f 86 uses only 6. how much more with the 8 50s of the jug? Did not say that a 47 is invulnerable to 20 mm. Just mentioned that a jug received 21 20 mm hits and continues flying.
He was lucky,nothing more,nothing less.A hexogenmunition would blow him apart,but such ammo wasn't avaliable until late summer 1943,something that Fortresses felt very well over Schweinfurt.
here the one ,,,The MG 151 (MG 151/15) was a 15 mm autocannon produced by Waffenfabrik Mauser starting in 1940. It was in 1941 developed into the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon which was widely used on many types of German Luftwaffe fighters, fighter bombers, night fighters, ground attack and even bombers as part of or as their main armament during World War II,,, look it up
The FW-190 was proven to be superior to both the P-47 and the P-51. The only problem was that it wasn't able to be produced in sufficient numbers and unfortunately most of the German veteran pilots were dead. An experienced German pilot in a FW-190 would win every time against any American. Since no American cities were bombed and the factories operated 24/7, the allies won simply by numbers, not because they were better pilots. Ignore the American propaganda and you have the truth.
@TeutonicKnight39 how do you figure the 190 was a better aircraft it was slower and had less arms than both the p47 and the mustang p51 ,,, it also could not take the abuse that the p47 could take ,,, oh and 20, 000 were made it was designed by kurt tank in the late 30"s it had a wing span of 31feet 1 inch and produced to much heat in the cockpit for most pilots ,,, i dont think you really know what you are talking about ,,, go look it up
@lesterclaypool1 The Fw190 was not slower than the P47, you must be comparing a 1944 P47 with a 1942 FW190. If its mid 1944 you should be comparing a FW190D9 with a P47 which are very similar in top speed, but the Fw190 is more manouverable.
@Xiolablu3 actually the air speed of a 1944 fw190 d9 was 426 miles an hour ,,,, the p47 flew at 550 mile an hour thats 124 miles an hour faster the p47 had more kills than the p-51 / p38 / p40 combined at [423, 435],,, 68000 trucks ,,,86000 rail way cars ,, 6000 armoured vehicles ,,, 9000 locamotives,,, look it up the p47 was a better plane period ,,, look it up
@Xiolablu3 i believe the 20mm had a rate of fire between 600 and 800 rounds per minute with a magizine of 60 rounds canisters and an efective range of 400 meters ,the anm3 had a firing rate of 800 to 1200RMP depending on the electric version or regular and each gun had 350 rounds and a effective range of 1830 meters and a mix of incenderays or armour percing , no doubt about it the 20 mm is good but the 50 cal had a much greater range and still could put more hits
@Xiolablu3 what ? the p47 had 8 x50 cal and ten rockets it could also carry a 500 lb bomb if needed or a presurised fuel tank there were variants of spitfires and hurricanes that had 8 guns on the wings and even a hawker typhoon that had a 12 guns but these were all 7.7 mm or .303"s a smaller round with much less energy for penatration ,but the big factor is the abiltite of the p47 as a ground attack plane , it set new records it could take a beating , and surving is a big deal
@lesterclaypool1 Only very few early 1941 model Typhoons had 12 machine guns, ALl the rest had 4x20mm which has as much range and is a far better air to air weapon than the 50 cal machine gun. All Spitfires after 1941 had 2x20mm and 4x.303 or 4x20mm.
Yes the P47 had a lot of armour, but htis made it cumbersome to manouvre.
@Xiolablu3 cumbersome ? it was fastern than a spitfire ,,, it set records for ground attack that the spitfire could not ,,, and even the hurricane had more kills than the spit fire ,,, and the one thing that the p47 had that the huricanes and spit did not have was the abilitie to fire as long as they flew in battle ,,, those 20 mm had 60 round each ,,,
@lesterclaypool1 by the way i didnt mention that the p47 also had 130mm rockets that were high explosives ,,, they leave a bigger hole than a 20mm or 30mm ,,, and as i said the p47 set records that the spit and hurricane could not match ,,, look it up this plane out did all others except the f4u corsair
@lesterclaypool1 THe Hurricane certainly did NOT have more kills than the Spitfire, you are confusing the Battle of Britain (6 months) with the whole war! The Hurricane was retired as a fighter in 1941, the Spit fought through the entire war. Spitfires from 1942 had 120rpg cannon, and if you think that the P47 could go at 550mph that just shows the extent of your knowledge.
@Xiolablu3 well actually you need to learn so here where you should start looking one place is called[[[[ republic p47 thunderbolt USA ]]] the other is [[[[design analysis of the p47 ]]] youll notice that one inparticular has the analysis of a p47 with updated guages that could actully measure it speed and dive tell me what it says ? they have repeatedly recorded the thunder bolt at over 700 miles an hour in dives and what its say about the flight speed ? go ahead read it
@Xiolablu3 you left out the 130mm rocket that the p47 carried , that 130 mm high explosive rockets they could destroy a king tiger with one hit and totally wipe out a plane , not to mention that those 30mm cannons not only did you have to point the plane at the target but you also left out the fact that the 30mm shell fell 135 feet per 1000 meters and it take about 25 of them to down a bomber, look it up i did it all right there the facts are clear the p47 was a monster
@lesterclaypool1 Lmao, you are talking about the 20mm. It took 3 to 4 hits from a 30mm cannon to down a bomber in WW2. You obviously didnt look it up very well! Simply google 'ww2 fighter gun effectiveness' and check out the first link which lays it out in semi scientific terms. There you will see just how poor the 50 cal is vs any WW2 cannon.
@Xiolablu3 you need to look it up mg151/20The new 20 mm shell was relatively effective against enemy aircraft, with the possible exception of heavily-built U.S. bombers such as the B-17 Flying Fortress. German statistics data showed that on average the 151/20 required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17, while 18-20 hits were required to down other 4-engine bomber types, and only four hits were required to down a single-engine fighter this is what wiki says argue with them
@lesterclaypool1 I didnt say wiki wasnt correct, the 20mm DID require 20-25 hits on a B17 to down it, but thats not that many. You originally said the 30mm (THIRTY) required 25 hits earlier, thats what I disputed. On the other hand it would require about 400-500 hits from a 50 cal weapon to down a B17 on average.
If you are talking about dive speed then a Spitfire reached mach 0.89 in a dive scientifically measured during WW2. Dive speed is nothing to do with top level speed.
@lesterclaypool1 what do gauges have to do with anything? My Ford Escort shows 140mph on the gauge, but it wont do 140mph?!? PM me the link, you missed it out of your last message. Did you actually read the links on WW2 fighter gun effects I sent you? (which show how poor the US .50 cal was vs cannon)
@lesterclaypool1 Yes, in a dive. This is like putting a car in neutral and letting it roll down a very very steep hill at 200mph. Doesnt mean its top speed IS 200mph.
@Xiolablu3 just go to the cite and look it up ,,, some say this plane broke the sound barrier befor Yegar did ,,, AND THE TREMINAL VELOCITY OF THIS PLANE WAS 600 MILE AN HOUR ,,,, whoops sorry about the caps
Brazil 1º Fighter Squadron ("Senta a Pua") were the best P-47 pilots of WWII. They were just a few group and had to complete a huge number of mission with no replacement pilots, untill the end of the war. Did much more missions than any american or english pilots. Most of them survived and came back home bringing the P-47 to Rio.
They should call this show as "American Aces", not "Dogfights"...
The turbo on a P&W R-2800 (incuding all the ductwork) is bigger than a 4cly auto engine. The engine itself weighs as much the car. So no, its not the same as the turbo on a VTEC.
A lot of British pilots in the Bob flew with their canopies locked open as they discovered early in the war that a bullet hitting the tracks for the canopy would invariably make it impossible to open it and escape a crippled aircraft.
@jxwp: oh no doubt. the Spitfire is one of my favorite all-time aircraft as well. i was simply stating that the P-47 has many admirable qualities of its own
Although I love this series I think it's a bit sad that they never show any of the many dogfights over Britain. I'd love to see History Channel Dogfights taking up some of the dogfights between Spitfires and Messerschmitts in the Battle of Britain.
@jxvwp Yeah, it's pretty sad that they don't have any BoB episode. I mean, the most crucial and influential period of pure air combat in history, and they can't even devote ONE lousy episode to it? I know it's an "American show", but they don't mind showing boring-ass F-15 missile kills over Israel. Personally, I'd trade all the modern "dogfights" (sic) for one BoB episode. The worlds future was decided by those 109's and Spitfires...if Britain lost, the war was lost. It was REAL "dogfighting".
@51mikep Well, not exactly "rip holes through bombers"...the MK108 30mm (and the MK103 especially!) would rip holes in bombers with a few rounds, but the 20mm's the Fw 190 had weren't as powerful. It's just a statistic, but it took an average of 25 20mm shells to down a B-17. Of course sometimes it was more or less. I don't believe that a fighter (even a P-47) could take that many shells and keep flying either. A fighter is a lot more packed with vital stuff; a 4-engine heavy is a tough target.
Egon Mayer (born 19 August 1917 in Konstanz at the Bodensee, killed in action March 2, 1944 near Montmédy) was a German World War II fighter ace who served in the Luftwaffe from 1937 until his death in 1944. He shot down 102 enemy aircraft. All his victories were claimed over the Western Front and included 26 four-engine bombers, 51 Supermarine Spitfires and 12 P-47 Thunderbolts. Egon Mayer was the first fighter pilot to score 100 victories entirely on the western front.
@LiviuFloreaRo His final score stood at 102, when he was shot down by a P-47 Thunderbolt and killed near Montmédy in Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-6 on 2 March 1944. He was posthumously decorated with the Swords to the Knight's Cross.
@Xiolablu3 well i know that in 4 the 56 fighter group had ordered them ,, but this was the b version and had serious tail problems,,,, later 602 c models were delivered in 42,,, total number built was 15 686,,,and im sure by 44 counting all plane the germans were out numbered ,,, but not by the p 47 alone ,, there were over 20,000 bf 190 , and over 33,000 me 109s and about 6900 stukas ,,, these numbers were through out the war
102 kills before being shot down. His nearly victim (the pilot of this jug he pulverizes), 5th victory was a 200 kills ace from the eastern front. a proof that the novices of the game were gaining the upperhand in the contest of aerial superiority against the pros over the european skies. how many more aces were downed, who knows? Nowotny was downed flying a jet. The german pilots has a fly till you die contract whereas the US pilots were being rotated back to states after 250 hrs of combat
sir, that's what RS Johnson said in an interview before he died. Hans Phillip was flying the FW 190 and was leading the pack in attacking the bombers. Johnson was shooting at him, he got credited with the kill so which is which? and by the way, no german plane short of the jets can outdive the jug. Also,. Johnson's plane received 21 20 mm cannon hits plus 100 plus 7.9 mm (he got this from eggon meyer)
He can claim that but there's a lot of versions,I took this one from Marek Murawski's ''JG 1 Oseau 1939-1943'' by Kagero.Philipp's wingman said that his commander was hit by return fire.BTW,Philipp got his 206th-a viermot,and his wingman rammed another one.And if a german plane can outdive the Jug or not,that depends of pilot skills,Gerd Wennekes,for example,managed to outdive the P-47.
@Raubritter1488 so you that version whilst I have RS Johnson's version. The fact is, he didn;t knew his 5th victim well after almost 50 years later. He downed the pilot in question on the 8th October 1943. In his narrative, he said " I was about 5,000 feet above them, rolling inverted to keep an eye on them. He continued his dive, firing and keeping his lead to get the leader of the pack. he wants the leader. the 4th plane nose up and fired at him but he ignored itm thinking he can't be hit
One thing is to claim and other is to get a real kill,and there's the problem.Some 70-80% of German claims are confirmed by US & British archives but only some 25-30% of US and British claims are confirmed.And that's not my version,read first,ok?''JG 1 Oseau 1939-43''-Marek J. Murawski,Kagero Publishing,2003.BTW,it looks like the Gunther Specht's case,one US pilot claimed him but,in reality,he was shot down by AA over the Asch airbase during Operation Bodenplatte.
@Raubritter1488 was refering to your source thats it,. not really on you. OK as well? Now for gerd wennekes to claim to have outdive a jug. what was he flying? just think. a jug has 7 tons, 2000 hp, paddle blades. once it turns its nose down it howls for the earth. why, even the 109 has trouble outclimbing the jug with paddle blades as one of the gerry pilot later learned. he claimed to have been in water methanol booster, steepened the climb but the jug still nailed him
Now, there's really no problem. Jonson was credited with the kill so officially he bagged the leader of that group. he did not claimed to down Hans Phillip. 50 years later, he learned that his 5th kill was the 200+ ace from the eastern front. and it turns out to be hans phillips. so where's the contest? As for bodenplatte, things got confused on who down whom. the only thing I learned was meyer got his kill while tucking in his wheels.
@Raubritter1488 my source is no other than RS Johnson himself in his book THUNDERBOLT. And by the way, the jug can hold itself at low and high altitudes. Proven by Dom Gentile and the polish pilot who borrowed Johnson's plane. Gentiles' case, he blasted 2 FW 190s and the third latch behind him while he was out of ammo. there follows a series of low altitude maneuvering. Gentile shouting for help from his teammates, the gerry blasting away till out of ammo. Gentile survived without a scratch.
Ask that to Major(then,Hauptmann) Theodor ''Theo'' Weissenberger,Gruppenkomandeur of II/JG 5 ''Eismeer''(flying a Bf 109 G-6),he got 13 P-47 kills in six weeks,and two P-51,two Lightings,two Spitfires and six Hawker Typhoon in a total of 25 confirmed kills.A perfect example of what a Luftwaffe fighter pilot is able to do even facing 20 or 30 to 1 numerically supperior adversary.
@Raubritter1488 Yes, the yankees had the numerical superiority. But think of the scenario. Yes, at a time,. there are 500 fighters aloft. but they were in relays. So, cut out a third (rtb after relieved), so only 350 is available. Cut again in half (fanning ahead of the bomber stream) and you have 175 herding the bomber stream the end result is, it is usually a squadron of 16 fighters herding a bomber box formation at a certain time. and these were attacked by at least a gaggle of 50 fighters.
so, who is outnumbered at a given place at a given time?Johnson had experienced this on a mission on March 1944. 16 fighters attacked by 3 gaggles of at least 40 each. It was only after 5 minutes later that the escorting 56th pilots got help from other squadrons. And guess what havoc it could wreak in 5 minutes. So don't say that the yanks had always the numerical superiority in an aerial combat.
Wrong,there were always P-47 and P-51's ahead of bomber formations ready to disperse any gaggle of german fighters.Despite that,even in May-June 1944 the Luftwaffe managed to cause heavy losses to US bomber streams but who cares if the bomber formations were some 700-800 aircraft protected by so many fighters and when a loss of 50-60 or even 70 bombers represents just some 10%???
@Raubritter1488 Wrong. by 1944, the 8 AF losses were light comparable to 1943. Reason? The 8AF were gaining experience and the LW was losing its veterans. Plus, the intro of the P-51.Twas in 43 where the LW inflicted heavy casualties againts the 8 AF, notably the 2 raids in Schweinfurt. The LW has the same problem in BoB, i.e., tying the escorting fighters to the bombers. The GIs has the same problem in 43 but corrected in in 44. This tactic was called the Zemke fan, from the 56th FG CO.
Wrong?On January 11th,for example,the 8 AF lost 60 Bombers,the same as over Schweinfurt(1943),on March 6th,they lost 69 bombers over Berlin,on April 11th,they lost 64 bombers over Oschersleben and on July 7th,they lost 58 bombers over Oschersleben again.The change was that the 8 AF was able to take this stream of casualities(large bomber formations) and the Luftwaffe was simply numerically overwhelmed.Bombing of the oil industry since May finnished the job.
@Michaeldean88 No offense meant mate. OK. should call you then GIs. by the way, that sentiment still going on, the johnny rebel- yankee thing, after all those years?
And man, at a distance of 450 yards, the 50s has the capability to blast an aircraft better than a 20 mm. Reason? good trajectory. remember, at aerial combat, you have only a fleeting moment to line up a target. 6 50s could dish out hundred round a second. say a 25% hit could knock out a fighter.
@burjegol Oh none taken. Yes it is still a pretty big thing here. I mean they burned several major cities to the ground and pillaged their way across the Georgia and South Carolina country side. It's still remembered quite well, and we still hold some resentment. I know the raw power of the Browning .50 cal very well. It could knock anything out of the sky, that's why I defend it so. I mean look they were practically the same thing our ground forces use to this very day. The perfect gun.
@Michaeldean88 yea, the perfect gun against armor, truck and the like. But not against people. Heck, I witnessed the effect of a 50 against human flesh.
@Raubritter1488 But he was hit in the rudder, disabling his rudder. thus when he encountered the me 110 later, only then did he learned that his plane has no rudder controls. He was ready to bail, almost got half his leg out of the plane when he realizes that he was over enemy territory, and the rudder trim tab still responds. hence he was able to return to england. Philips wingman probably thought he was hit by the 17s return fire. Johnson said he was shooting at him. got the credit. ????
Personally I think the Spitfire is the most beautiful Airplane ever to take to the skies. And it has that appeal of being that little machine that defiantly fought the mighty luftwaffe.
The book described the german pilot pulling alongside before, then afterward, showing incredible surprise.. and waving goodbye and leaving him be. (maybe because he had no ammo left, your guess is as good as mine)
I read about this incident in a book, I'm trying to remember the title of it but I recall it was written by a commanding officer of a p47 unit. The Pilot here was not wearing goggles or had to remove his goggles after the fire went out becouse they were a mess.
The Fw only had his top mounted guns left and the P47 pilot sat curled in a bal in his airplane.
elperronegro, twas johson who was the pilot of this p-47. by the time of the inceident, he flew without his flying goggles as he had them repaired at that time. his eyers was stung by teh hydraulic spray on the cockpit, and has to fly the jug half blind.
y does it say Meyer is using 30cals? the 190 had 4 20mm in the wings and 2 in the nose..this vid shows him firing guns out of his wings haha love it. Still awesome vid, P47 is pretty cool
Earlier FW 190's had twin MG 17 7.92mm (.31cal) MGs and four 20mm cannon in the wings, twin MG151/20's in the wing roots and two MG FF in the outboard positions. The MG FF's were frequently removed to save weight; the FF was a heavy gun. Later versions replaced the MG FF's with lighter MG151/20's, and in the A-8 the 7.92mm MG 17s were finally replaced with 13mm (.51cal) MG131 heavy machine guns. Apparently the MG 17s were popular because the tracer rounds had similar ballistics to 20mm ammo.
The P-47 was huge versus other WW II single engine fighters and cost a bunch more. While a smaller Mustang cost $53,000, a Thunderbolt cost almost $100,000. And the spitfire was even smaller than a Mustang. The air-cooled-twin-banked R-2800 put out 2000 HP with the 100 octane avgas used in the war. It put out 2300 HP with the 130 octane fuel the airlines used later in the Martin 404 and the Convair 240, among others. It put out 2500 HP with the 145 octane fuel the AF used in the C-123 Provider.
SabraStiehl 1 week ago
Ref. the Luftwaffe vs American fighters, American fighter pilots normally flew 50 missions, then went back to the Southern U.S. to become flight instructors. The bomber pilots flew 25-35 missions and went home to do the same. German pilots flew until they couldn't anymore. Some had artificial legs, etc. The high number of kills for a good number of Deutsch pilots came from more than a thousand sorties each, and those guys usually survived being shot down several times. And Johnson was an idiot.
SabraStiehl 1 week ago
i love the german one lol its funny with the yellow nose
BlackDHbatman 1 month ago
P-47's, Y U so awesome!!!! xD
ingaenterprise13 1 month ago
Fw 190 should have switched out with BF-109, with it'a 1x heavy cannon in the nose it would flamed the jug.
HybodusStudios 1 month ago
now that german is/was a f**king pussy....
LPBESSTBAND95 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
7.9mm? What kind of crack is the history channel smoking? Those are 20mms on the wings..
zurich163 3 months ago
Comment removed
zurich163 3 months ago
this guy johnson was just short of being a jedi........
etornel79 3 months ago
56th FTW.
pvtsoap262 6 months ago
The P&W twin was not *the* most powerfull engine. What about Napier Sabre, Bristol Centaurus, RR Griffon.. Fine engine nevertheless. Especially as it was available in numbers as early.
eotunun 8 months ago
Ok I am sick and tired of people bashing the Browning.50 machine gun.It was a fine weapon and having 6 of those bad boys with a lead computing gunsight was one of the best gun platforms ever mounted.They were extremely effective and something that was highly feared.They could hold over 4 times as many rounds as anything else and fire around 3 times longer than any cannon ever mounted in a aircraft. The USAAF/USAF used them for decades to great affect. Hell we even used 'em in Korea with a 10/1KR
Michaeldean88 9 months ago
@Michaeldean88
Well,Gabreski didn't care about computing gunsight,he was more like Hartmann:open fire at the closest range to ensure that your victim will fall out from the sky.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 As we are all aware of sir. But I was defending the Browning .50 cal. Not bashing Gabreski.
Michaeldean88 8 months ago
@Michaeldean88
Gabreski didn't give a shit about computing gunsight,he followed Hartmann's method of firing at point blank range to save ammo and ensure the kill,so I'm not bashing him,that's all.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Michaeldean88
Gabreski didn't give a shit about computing gunsight,he followed Hartmann's method of firing at point blank range to save ammo and ensure the kill,so I'm not bashing him,that's all.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 As for the polish pilot, he was assigned Johnson's plane as the latter was not sked to fly. His squadron mates found him later on the deck, matching the FW 190 turn for turn, trying to run him out of gas over his own base, 350 miles from his. the reason? the jug's guns jammed.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
I think that's a fiction,a simple propaganda invention.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Which is fiction and which is not? were you there? Surely I was not. But, the accounts of R.S. Johnson would not be published by bantam books co-authored by martin caidin if it were propaganda invention. The novice pilots of the 56th FG faced the veteran yellow noses across the channel, and surely, they encountered losses heavily on the initial contacts. but, they slug it out with them germans, and pushed them back from the channel coast. And you cannot contest that.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Heinz Knoke shot down a P-47 piloted by a 17-kill ace with his burning 109.BTW,when you have a fucking idiot like Goring ordering you to attack only bombers and behave like there are no fighters,you're simply putting your head on a plate.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 not Goehring. Actually, it was Hitler. He was the idiot who forbid the use of the 262s as a fighter. As early as 1943, the 262 could be available had Hitler OK'd it. One instance, there was only 3 262 rising to meet the bombers. they downed 3 bombers. Meanwhile, there was more than 60 262s camouflaged in the woods intended to be wonder bomber. 8 AF carpet bombed the woods totally destroying all. think of the damage it could do if all 60 were up against the bombers
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
As far as I remember,Goering was the fucking idiot who ordered Jagdwaffe pilots to attack only bombers and you're wrong,the ME-262 couldn't enter in 1943 'cause it lacked engines(the Jumo 004B was still being improved and it was pretended to be used in Arado 234 bomber).And yes,the decision of converting the Me 262 into a bomber was simply insane.On March 18th,37 Me-262 from III/JG 7 attacked a formation of Fortresses and shot down 13 of them,Major Theo Weissenberger got three.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Perhaps copying RAF tactics on BoB wherein the hurricanes blow thru fighter escorts. but, there was a division of labor on there. twas the hurricanes to tangle with the bombers and the spits to deal with the escorts.
Galland flew the 262 early in methink april 43. What implication it might have done had it been developed by that year/ Instead, Hitler was transfixed by its speed, declaring it his wonder bomber. KAPUT!
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
That was what Germans did,they tasked Messerschmitt Bf 109(which had good altitude performance) to engage the escort and FW 190 to deal with the bombers,but there were so many escort fighters that they overwhelmed 109's and wreaked havoc between the 190's.Indeed,Galland flew the 262 in April 1943 and he was simply wondered with it's spees:''it's like being pushed by an angel''-he said.But in 1943 there were problems with Jumo 004 engine 'cause it was to be used in the Ar 234,too.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Naw, they tinkered the 109 with cannons, methanol drop tanks to deal with the bombers that affected its performance. when the escort fighters comes into equation, the 109s handles like a flying brick with all those cannons (they mounted some with big ones that jammed after 5 shots) and external plumbings. Besides, the 190 is dead meat above 20K ft alt. and the B-17s usually come at 22 to 25K.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
I know the G-6/AS versions from spring 1944 and the G-10 from autumn of the same year,and both wariants aren't ''flying bricks'',both have nearly the same performance as the U.S fighters have at high altitude.BTW,the A-9 version of the Wurger had better performance than the A-8,and the Dora-9 was simply the best fighter of the whole WW2.The great Langnase-Dora!!!
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 And talking about the bravery of the LW pilots. I think it was Barkhorn or one another who mentioned on their first encounter with the B-17s "My mind says we can't go in on that formation, but my hands and feet were already acting on their own, maneuvering my kite for an attack". Another one stated, :you did not need to commit suicide by ramming them. Just coming close to that box formation is already suicide".
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
It wasn't Barkhorn,I think that was Helmut Lipfert,a 203-kill ace from JG 52 and 53.It's very uncomfortable when you have to attack a numerous bomber formation with some hundreds of 0'50 cal. ready to fire.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@burjegol
And the 262's attack that I described before was on March 18th 1945,when the 8AF launched another raid over Berlin.But even the best aircraft is useless when you don't have enough trained pilots,fuel and raw materials like copper,for example.That's a shame 'cause it could enter as a fighter not in 1943,but even earlier(1942-43),but you know,lack of interest from the Luftwaffe HQ.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 sir, by 45, the germans were running out of veteran pilots due to attrition. Even Galland was flabbergasted when he heard of the plans to let HY fly the He 163.
Lack of interest from the LW? It's politics man. Galland and the rest of veteran LW pilots had altercation with Goehring. His solution? Form the JV 44 composed of all the rebel pilots (probably to quarantine them). Galland must me LOL! Their unit badge? Knight's Cross because all pilots were recipient of this medal.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Not only out of pilots,fuel was scarce and the industry was nearly dead.And I know that's the politics.First they though that the incoming victory will be achieved and later(BOB,1943) that fucking fat shit Goering was blaming even the pilots for his own failures and the rebellion of LW aces took place in 1945,and it was the very Hitler who saved Galland's ass and kicked the Goering's one.In JV 44 not all pilots vere KC holders,there were some guys with the German Cross in Gold,too.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Industry dead? Man, when the 8AF started bombing, a/c production rose under Speer. He decentralised the A/C. Prior, rate was in hundreds of fighter. when he took over, it rose to thousands. The question is, who's gonna fly them?
and yes, there was also power play in LW, to the point that Udet has to commit suicide. Heck, even Himmler was patronizing the LW program. So, it was 'Heil Himmler" at that time.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
I'm talking about the situation in circa 1945 and even Speer couldn't achieve more that he managed before.Look at the operation Clarion,the final blow against the Reich's communication system.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 At the BoB, galland was forced to ask Goehring for a squadron of spitfires. In his words, he preferred the 109 over the spit (of course). It's just the stubbornness of the OKL and notably the Reichmarshall to listen to them, fighter pilots. They were always blamed for the bomber losses due to poor tactics. He likened their situation to a dog on a short leash.
In the later part, them pilots were even charged for cowardice, preferring to bail out instead of fighting.
burjegol 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Gabreski could have cared less about the lead computing gunsight. His plane has 8 50s, just squeeze the trigger and for sure he'll get some hits. Besides, he flying a p-47 not a p-51. the jug has not this feature.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
I was not talking that he was fdlying a P-51,so where's the problem???BTW,''some hits'' don't always mean ''kills'' and the overclaiming was so Anglo-American feature...
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Whoa it up there Hoss. You're freakin' out over nothin'. I ain't about to get in a pissin' contest with you over your ability to not read a sentence correctly. I never implied that you were bashing anyone or anything. I was bashing the assholes and idiots who were talking trash about the Browning machine gun. That's it! Calm down, stop cussin'.
Michaeldean88 8 months ago
@Michaeldean88
I'm talking about that the 0'50 has its limits,and it has to hit to inflict some damage as well as the 20 mm gun.If you fire at pioint blank range,you save a lot of ammo and ensure the kill,that's all,but it seems that you're too stupid to get what I'm talking about.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
Myer's probably thinking, "WTF Haxor!"
DiscoDude82 9 months ago
MAN THIS SHIT IS EXCITING!!!!!!!
rscare 10 months ago
Thunderbolt beutiful aircraft, I want to fly one.
santoroyerdeantorcha 1 year ago
and did you ask me where i got that they shot down more plane than the other combined ? well i found it ,,, its on wiki a little more than half way down ,,, what me to cut and paste it ?
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 BTW I am only playing 'devils advocate' here. I also think that the P47 was an awesome aircraft. But there were some problems with having a fighter so big and heavy. WHich is why every other nation tried to keep their fighters as light as possible, so they could climb fast and were very agile. Also why EVERY other nation preffered cannon armament to .50 cal HMG.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 i cant say that the 50 cal was a bad gun ,,, it shot a round almost twice the 303s and is used today it was also the first thing on this planet to break the sound barrier ,,, it was also very important to the marines that flew agaisnt the japanese against the bettys and a6m and dy4 ,,, because the armour percing and incenderay rounds
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 cannons are too situational
you can use 50 cals against anything
Strafing, Dogfights etc
barneysixx 11 months ago
@barneysixx Cannons are everything a .50 cal is and much more. WW2 20mm Cannons are explosive, fire almost as fast, carry more explosive and also solid AP shot which is much bigger than the 50 cal.
What can you use a 50 cal vs that you cant a 20mm Hispano cannon? Its more destructive vs EVERYTHING
Xiolablu3 11 months ago
@Xiolablu3 Volume of fire and round capacity. The .50 could knock anything out of the sky with enough rounds no matter what the size of the plane was. It had enough "punch" to get the job done. Plus they could hold over a thousand rounds that 20mm had far far far less rounds, and a much much much slower rate of fire. Which it didn't need it because 1 or 2 hits would knock anything out of the sky. But again a P-47, P-51, P-38 were flying at 370+ mph.In short cannon are better for big slow bombers
Michaeldean88 9 months ago
@Michaeldean88 No the 20mm did NOT have a much lower rate of fire, Hispano mk V was 800rpm. Cannons are better for every type of air combat, but the US didnt have a useable reliable cannon, you should read up on the WW2 USA 20mm debacle. Yes the .50 could get the job done with enough rounds, but then again so could the .303. Every major power in WW2 moved up to 20mm cannon as main fighter gun except the USA, even when they had a better .50mg than the browning to use, such as the Russians.
Xiolablu3 9 months ago
@Xiolablu3 Well yeah the Hispano cannon did have a 700-800rpm fire rate, but the Germans didn't use them asshole! They used the Mauser MG 151/20mm with a rate of fire around 680 rpm and only had 135 rounds for the god damn thing, or they used the Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk108 a 30mm cannon with if I remember correctly 65 rounds for the gun at a rate of fire of around 650rpm. Ok maybe I was wrong on the rates of fire, but you were wrong about the model of cannon.
Michaeldean88 9 months ago
@Michaeldean88 1 or 2 hits with a 20 mm will knock anything out of the sky? A, probably you haven't heard a jug with 21 20 mm hits and a 100+ hits with a 7.9 mm and that said plane still came home to England.
The 20 mm has a lower rate of fire, poor trajectory. The question is how many you can land against a moving target at a given time. The 50s has a higher rate of fire, good trajectory thus could land many hits on such a time. Thus, the 50 can inflict much damage compared to 20 mm
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
You're a little bit wrong,sir,the 20 mm explosive shells have a more destructive impact than the 0'50 ones.You should know the hexogen-munition introduced in 1943.There are some statistics saying that you need an average of 20-20 mm hits to bring down a viermot,so you should need a half of that to blow a fighter,and even a P-47 is not invulnerable to cannon shells.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 yes you are right. the 20 mm has more destructive power IF THEY HIT. As U have mentioned, it is the question of putting much lead to a moving target at a give time. Hence the 50 will win at any given time against the 20 mm due to its rate of fire and accuracy. Even the mig 15s succumbed to it while the f 86 uses only 6. how much more with the 8 50s of the jug? Did not say that a 47 is invulnerable to 20 mm. Just mentioned that a jug received 21 20 mm hits and continues flying.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
He was lucky,nothing more,nothing less.A hexogenmunition would blow him apart,but such ammo wasn't avaliable until late summer 1943,something that Fortresses felt very well over Schweinfurt.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
show me where it say 400- 500 50 cal round to down a bomber i didnt read that any where ,,,, please give the web cite where you read this ?
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
here the one ,,,The MG 151 (MG 151/15) was a 15 mm autocannon produced by Waffenfabrik Mauser starting in 1940. It was in 1941 developed into the 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon which was widely used on many types of German Luftwaffe fighters, fighter bombers, night fighters, ground attack and even bombers as part of or as their main armament during World War II,,, look it up
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
The FW-190 was proven to be superior to both the P-47 and the P-51. The only problem was that it wasn't able to be produced in sufficient numbers and unfortunately most of the German veteran pilots were dead. An experienced German pilot in a FW-190 would win every time against any American. Since no American cities were bombed and the factories operated 24/7, the allies won simply by numbers, not because they were better pilots. Ignore the American propaganda and you have the truth.
TeutonicKnight39 1 year ago
@TeutonicKnight39 how do you figure the 190 was a better aircraft it was slower and had less arms than both the p47 and the mustang p51 ,,, it also could not take the abuse that the p47 could take ,,, oh and 20, 000 were made it was designed by kurt tank in the late 30"s it had a wing span of 31feet 1 inch and produced to much heat in the cockpit for most pilots ,,, i dont think you really know what you are talking about ,,, go look it up
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 The Fw190 was not slower than the P47, you must be comparing a 1944 P47 with a 1942 FW190. If its mid 1944 you should be comparing a FW190D9 with a P47 which are very similar in top speed, but the Fw190 is more manouverable.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 actually the air speed of a 1944 fw190 d9 was 426 miles an hour ,,,, the p47 flew at 550 mile an hour thats 124 miles an hour faster the p47 had more kills than the p-51 / p38 / p40 combined at [423, 435],,, 68000 trucks ,,,86000 rail way cars ,, 6000 armoured vehicles ,,, 9000 locamotives,,, look it up the p47 was a better plane period ,,, look it up
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 550 mph for the P47 lmfao, where did you read this rubbish?
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
The US Navy and RAF equalled one 20mm Hispano to over 3 .50 cal machine guns (3.3 to be exact)
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 i believe the 20mm had a rate of fire between 600 and 800 rounds per minute with a magizine of 60 rounds canisters and an efective range of 400 meters ,the anm3 had a firing rate of 800 to 1200RMP depending on the electric version or regular and each gun had 350 rounds and a effective range of 1830 meters and a mix of incenderays or armour percing , no doubt about it the 20 mm is good but the 50 cal had a much greater range and still could put more hits
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
8x.50 was NOT as heavy as many WW2 fighters had at the time. That statement is totally false.
Spitfire MkV of 1941 = 2x20mm and 4x.303 = heavier
Hawker Typhoon of 1942 = 4x20mm Hispano = heavier
Fw190A4 of 1942= 4x20mm and 2x7.92mm = heavier
Me262 4xmk108 30mm MUCH heavier.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 what ? the p47 had 8 x50 cal and ten rockets it could also carry a 500 lb bomb if needed or a presurised fuel tank there were variants of spitfires and hurricanes that had 8 guns on the wings and even a hawker typhoon that had a 12 guns but these were all 7.7 mm or .303"s a smaller round with much less energy for penatration ,but the big factor is the abiltite of the p47 as a ground attack plane , it set new records it could take a beating , and surving is a big deal
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 Only very few early 1941 model Typhoons had 12 machine guns, ALl the rest had 4x20mm which has as much range and is a far better air to air weapon than the 50 cal machine gun. All Spitfires after 1941 had 2x20mm and 4x.303 or 4x20mm.
Yes the P47 had a lot of armour, but htis made it cumbersome to manouvre.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 cumbersome ? it was fastern than a spitfire ,,, it set records for ground attack that the spitfire could not ,,, and even the hurricane had more kills than the spit fire ,,, and the one thing that the p47 had that the huricanes and spit did not have was the abilitie to fire as long as they flew in battle ,,, those 20 mm had 60 round each ,,,
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 by the way i didnt mention that the p47 also had 130mm rockets that were high explosives ,,, they leave a bigger hole than a 20mm or 30mm ,,, and as i said the p47 set records that the spit and hurricane could not match ,,, look it up this plane out did all others except the f4u corsair
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 THe Hurricane certainly did NOT have more kills than the Spitfire, you are confusing the Battle of Britain (6 months) with the whole war! The Hurricane was retired as a fighter in 1941, the Spit fought through the entire war. Spitfires from 1942 had 120rpg cannon, and if you think that the P47 could go at 550mph that just shows the extent of your knowledge.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 well actually you need to learn so here where you should start looking one place is called[[[[ republic p47 thunderbolt USA ]]] the other is [[[[design analysis of the p47 ]]] youll notice that one inparticular has the analysis of a p47 with updated guages that could actully measure it speed and dive tell me what it says ? they have repeatedly recorded the thunder bolt at over 700 miles an hour in dives and what its say about the flight speed ? go ahead read it
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 you left out the 130mm rocket that the p47 carried , that 130 mm high explosive rockets they could destroy a king tiger with one hit and totally wipe out a plane , not to mention that those 30mm cannons not only did you have to point the plane at the target but you also left out the fact that the 30mm shell fell 135 feet per 1000 meters and it take about 25 of them to down a bomber, look it up i did it all right there the facts are clear the p47 was a monster
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 Lmao, you are talking about the 20mm. It took 3 to 4 hits from a 30mm cannon to down a bomber in WW2. You obviously didnt look it up very well! Simply google 'ww2 fighter gun effectiveness' and check out the first link which lays it out in semi scientific terms. There you will see just how poor the 50 cal is vs any WW2 cannon.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 you need to look it up mg151/20The new 20 mm shell was relatively effective against enemy aircraft, with the possible exception of heavily-built U.S. bombers such as the B-17 Flying Fortress. German statistics data showed that on average the 151/20 required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17, while 18-20 hits were required to down other 4-engine bomber types, and only four hits were required to down a single-engine fighter this is what wiki says argue with them
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 I didnt say wiki wasnt correct, the 20mm DID require 20-25 hits on a B17 to down it, but thats not that many. You originally said the 30mm (THIRTY) required 25 hits earlier, thats what I disputed. On the other hand it would require about 400-500 hits from a 50 cal weapon to down a B17 on average.
If you are talking about dive speed then a Spitfire reached mach 0.89 in a dive scientifically measured during WW2. Dive speed is nothing to do with top level speed.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 just go and look up ,,,,, [design and analysis of p47 ] then scroll down to guages ,,, just do it argue with the finding of the experts
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 what do gauges have to do with anything? My Ford Escort shows 140mph on the gauge, but it wont do 140mph?!? PM me the link, you missed it out of your last message. Did you actually read the links on WW2 fighter gun effects I sent you? (which show how poor the US .50 cal was vs cannon)
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 i sent you the recording from the republic cite you told me to look at ,,,, and i believe it says 700 miles an hour
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 Yes, in a dive. This is like putting a car in neutral and letting it roll down a very very steep hill at 200mph. Doesnt mean its top speed IS 200mph.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 just go to the cite and look it up ,,, some say this plane broke the sound barrier befor Yegar did ,,, AND THE TREMINAL VELOCITY OF THIS PLANE WAS 600 MILE AN HOUR ,,,, whoops sorry about the caps
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 Yes it was fast IN A DIVE. That is totally different from top level speed.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Xiolablu3 i sent you the recording from the republic cite you told me to look at ,,,, and i believe it says 700 miles an hour in dives ,,,
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
5:41 dude likes crack I guess:P
evildeathmonkey1 1 year ago
fist the guy said June 26, then June 23
benbrez116 1 year ago
THUMBS UP it dogfights should come back on air
benbrez116 1 year ago
Brazil 1º Fighter Squadron ("Senta a Pua") were the best P-47 pilots of WWII. They were just a few group and had to complete a huge number of mission with no replacement pilots, untill the end of the war. Did much more missions than any american or english pilots. Most of them survived and came back home bringing the P-47 to Rio.
They should call this show as "American Aces", not "Dogfights"...
UrsusVonForsteck78 1 year ago
awsome story!
TheTxBandit 1 year ago
yup he was great but he is dead and this p-47 pilot lives!
KruGorBay2010 1 year ago
The turbo on a P&W R-2800 (incuding all the ductwork) is bigger than a 4cly auto engine. The engine itself weighs as much the car. So no, its not the same as the turbo on a VTEC.
Warblade118 1 year ago
@Warblade118 no not the same as a vtec ,,, but this was a 18 cylinder engine with a displacment of 2804 cubic inches ,,,,
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
IS the Turbo charger the same one from VTEC?
FXThug 1 year ago
A lot of British pilots in the Bob flew with their canopies locked open as they discovered early in the war that a bullet hitting the tracks for the canopy would invariably make it impossible to open it and escape a crippled aircraft.
paul6t4 1 year ago
@jxwp: oh no doubt. the Spitfire is one of my favorite all-time aircraft as well. i was simply stating that the P-47 has many admirable qualities of its own
merkava15 1 year ago
Although I love this series I think it's a bit sad that they never show any of the many dogfights over Britain. I'd love to see History Channel Dogfights taking up some of the dogfights between Spitfires and Messerschmitts in the Battle of Britain.
jxvwp 1 year ago
@jxvwp Yeah, it's pretty sad that they don't have any BoB episode. I mean, the most crucial and influential period of pure air combat in history, and they can't even devote ONE lousy episode to it? I know it's an "American show", but they don't mind showing boring-ass F-15 missile kills over Israel. Personally, I'd trade all the modern "dogfights" (sic) for one BoB episode. The worlds future was decided by those 109's and Spitfires...if Britain lost, the war was lost. It was REAL "dogfighting".
justforever96 1 year ago
Wonder why Mayer paused several times to come up alongside him? Maybe to give the guy a chance to bail out...
IcyScythe 1 year ago
I live only around the corner from Boxted Air Field.. the home of the 56th Fighter Group..
BasicModelling 1 year ago
im guessing the fw-190's cannons were out? cause theyd rip holes through bombers with a few rounds
51mikep 1 year ago
@51mikep Well, not exactly "rip holes through bombers"...the MK108 30mm (and the MK103 especially!) would rip holes in bombers with a few rounds, but the 20mm's the Fw 190 had weren't as powerful. It's just a statistic, but it took an average of 25 20mm shells to down a B-17. Of course sometimes it was more or less. I don't believe that a fighter (even a P-47) could take that many shells and keep flying either. A fighter is a lot more packed with vital stuff; a 4-engine heavy is a tough target.
justforever96 1 year ago
Egon Mayer (born 19 August 1917 in Konstanz at the Bodensee, killed in action March 2, 1944 near Montmédy) was a German World War II fighter ace who served in the Luftwaffe from 1937 until his death in 1944. He shot down 102 enemy aircraft. All his victories were claimed over the Western Front and included 26 four-engine bombers, 51 Supermarine Spitfires and 12 P-47 Thunderbolts. Egon Mayer was the first fighter pilot to score 100 victories entirely on the western front.
LiviuFloreaRo 2 years ago 28
@LiviuFloreaRo His final score stood at 102, when he was shot down by a P-47 Thunderbolt and killed near Montmédy in Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-6 on 2 March 1944. He was posthumously decorated with the Swords to the Knight's Cross.
Both comments from wikipedia
LiviuFloreaRo 2 years ago 16
@LiviuFloreaRo - a person so highly decorated was flying an A-6 in 44? That sucks, or perhaps it was his prefrence?
Acornoa 1 year ago
@LiviuFloreaRo Probably outnumbered 10 to 1 too.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 no look at the production numbers they are well recorded
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
@lesterclaypool1 What I mean is that the Germans were outnumbered by 1944.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 well i know that in 4 the 56 fighter group had ordered them ,, but this was the b version and had serious tail problems,,,, later 602 c models were delivered in 42,,, total number built was 15 686,,,and im sure by 44 counting all plane the germans were out numbered ,,, but not by the p 47 alone ,, there were over 20,000 bf 190 , and over 33,000 me 109s and about 6900 stukas ,,, these numbers were through out the war
lesterclaypool1 1 year ago
102 kills before being shot down. His nearly victim (the pilot of this jug he pulverizes), 5th victory was a 200 kills ace from the eastern front. a proof that the novices of the game were gaining the upperhand in the contest of aerial superiority against the pros over the european skies. how many more aces were downed, who knows? Nowotny was downed flying a jet. The german pilots has a fly till you die contract whereas the US pilots were being rotated back to states after 250 hrs of combat
burjegol 2 years ago
@burjegol
If you're talking about Hans Philipp,he was shot down by B-17's return fire and not by P-47!!!
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488
sir, that's what RS Johnson said in an interview before he died. Hans Phillip was flying the FW 190 and was leading the pack in attacking the bombers. Johnson was shooting at him, he got credited with the kill so which is which? and by the way, no german plane short of the jets can outdive the jug. Also,. Johnson's plane received 21 20 mm cannon hits plus 100 plus 7.9 mm (he got this from eggon meyer)
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
He can claim that but there's a lot of versions,I took this one from Marek Murawski's ''JG 1 Oseau 1939-1943'' by Kagero.Philipp's wingman said that his commander was hit by return fire.BTW,Philipp got his 206th-a viermot,and his wingman rammed another one.And if a german plane can outdive the Jug or not,that depends of pilot skills,Gerd Wennekes,for example,managed to outdive the P-47.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 so you that version whilst I have RS Johnson's version. The fact is, he didn;t knew his 5th victim well after almost 50 years later. He downed the pilot in question on the 8th October 1943. In his narrative, he said " I was about 5,000 feet above them, rolling inverted to keep an eye on them. He continued his dive, firing and keeping his lead to get the leader of the pack. he wants the leader. the 4th plane nose up and fired at him but he ignored itm thinking he can't be hit
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
@burjegol
One thing is to claim and other is to get a real kill,and there's the problem.Some 70-80% of German claims are confirmed by US & British archives but only some 25-30% of US and British claims are confirmed.And that's not my version,read first,ok?''JG 1 Oseau 1939-43''-Marek J. Murawski,Kagero Publishing,2003.BTW,it looks like the Gunther Specht's case,one US pilot claimed him but,in reality,he was shot down by AA over the Asch airbase during Operation Bodenplatte.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 was refering to your source thats it,. not really on you. OK as well? Now for gerd wennekes to claim to have outdive a jug. what was he flying? just think. a jug has 7 tons, 2000 hp, paddle blades. once it turns its nose down it howls for the earth. why, even the 109 has trouble outclimbing the jug with paddle blades as one of the gerry pilot later learned. he claimed to have been in water methanol booster, steepened the climb but the jug still nailed him
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Wennekes was flying a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6,and Jug was vulnerable at low and medium altitudes,there German pilots ruled.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488
Now, there's really no problem. Jonson was credited with the kill so officially he bagged the leader of that group. he did not claimed to down Hans Phillip. 50 years later, he learned that his 5th kill was the 200+ ace from the eastern front. and it turns out to be hans phillips. so where's the contest? As for bodenplatte, things got confused on who down whom. the only thing I learned was meyer got his kill while tucking in his wheels.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Can you give me the source?I gave you mine so I expect the same.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 my source is no other than RS Johnson himself in his book THUNDERBOLT. And by the way, the jug can hold itself at low and high altitudes. Proven by Dom Gentile and the polish pilot who borrowed Johnson's plane. Gentiles' case, he blasted 2 FW 190s and the third latch behind him while he was out of ammo. there follows a series of low altitude maneuvering. Gentile shouting for help from his teammates, the gerry blasting away till out of ammo. Gentile survived without a scratch.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Ask that to Major(then,Hauptmann) Theodor ''Theo'' Weissenberger,Gruppenkomandeur of II/JG 5 ''Eismeer''(flying a Bf 109 G-6),he got 13 P-47 kills in six weeks,and two P-51,two Lightings,two Spitfires and six Hawker Typhoon in a total of 25 confirmed kills.A perfect example of what a Luftwaffe fighter pilot is able to do even facing 20 or 30 to 1 numerically supperior adversary.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Yes, the yankees had the numerical superiority. But think of the scenario. Yes, at a time,. there are 500 fighters aloft. but they were in relays. So, cut out a third (rtb after relieved), so only 350 is available. Cut again in half (fanning ahead of the bomber stream) and you have 175 herding the bomber stream the end result is, it is usually a squadron of 16 fighters herding a bomber box formation at a certain time. and these were attacked by at least a gaggle of 50 fighters.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
so, who is outnumbered at a given place at a given time?Johnson had experienced this on a mission on March 1944. 16 fighters attacked by 3 gaggles of at least 40 each. It was only after 5 minutes later that the escorting 56th pilots got help from other squadrons. And guess what havoc it could wreak in 5 minutes. So don't say that the yanks had always the numerical superiority in an aerial combat.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
That's one of few exceptions,there were always between some 700-800 fighters of all type escorting the bombers.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@burjegol
Wrong,there were always P-47 and P-51's ahead of bomber formations ready to disperse any gaggle of german fighters.Despite that,even in May-June 1944 the Luftwaffe managed to cause heavy losses to US bomber streams but who cares if the bomber formations were some 700-800 aircraft protected by so many fighters and when a loss of 50-60 or even 70 bombers represents just some 10%???
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 Wrong. by 1944, the 8 AF losses were light comparable to 1943. Reason? The 8AF were gaining experience and the LW was losing its veterans. Plus, the intro of the P-51.Twas in 43 where the LW inflicted heavy casualties againts the 8 AF, notably the 2 raids in Schweinfurt. The LW has the same problem in BoB, i.e., tying the escorting fighters to the bombers. The GIs has the same problem in 43 but corrected in in 44. This tactic was called the Zemke fan, from the 56th FG CO.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol
Wrong?On January 11th,for example,the 8 AF lost 60 Bombers,the same as over Schweinfurt(1943),on March 6th,they lost 69 bombers over Berlin,on April 11th,they lost 64 bombers over Oschersleben and on July 7th,they lost 58 bombers over Oschersleben again.The change was that the 8 AF was able to take this stream of casualities(large bomber formations) and the Luftwaffe was simply numerically overwhelmed.Bombing of the oil industry since May finnished the job.
Raubritter1488 8 months ago
@burjegol Hey hey hey. Some of those men were southerner's we don't cotton to be called "Yankees" Ok?
Michaeldean88 8 months ago
@Michaeldean88 No offense meant mate. OK. should call you then GIs. by the way, that sentiment still going on, the johnny rebel- yankee thing, after all those years?
And man, at a distance of 450 yards, the 50s has the capability to blast an aircraft better than a 20 mm. Reason? good trajectory. remember, at aerial combat, you have only a fleeting moment to line up a target. 6 50s could dish out hundred round a second. say a 25% hit could knock out a fighter.
burjegol 8 months ago
@burjegol Oh none taken. Yes it is still a pretty big thing here. I mean they burned several major cities to the ground and pillaged their way across the Georgia and South Carolina country side. It's still remembered quite well, and we still hold some resentment. I know the raw power of the Browning .50 cal very well. It could knock anything out of the sky, that's why I defend it so. I mean look they were practically the same thing our ground forces use to this very day. The perfect gun.
Michaeldean88 8 months ago
@Michaeldean88 yea, the perfect gun against armor, truck and the like. But not against people. Heck, I witnessed the effect of a 50 against human flesh.
burjegol 8 months ago
@Raubritter1488 But he was hit in the rudder, disabling his rudder. thus when he encountered the me 110 later, only then did he learned that his plane has no rudder controls. He was ready to bail, almost got half his leg out of the plane when he realizes that he was over enemy territory, and the rudder trim tab still responds. hence he was able to return to england. Philips wingman probably thought he was hit by the 17s return fire. Johnson said he was shooting at him. got the credit. ????
burjegol 8 months ago
@LiviuFloreaRo Well i guess he became the ww2 red baron
1bearcatf8f 1 year ago
a beautiful plane either way, the P-47
merkava15 2 years ago
@merkava15
Beautiful? The P-47?!?
Well everybody is entitled to an opinion.
Personally I think the Spitfire is the most beautiful Airplane ever to take to the skies. And it has that appeal of being that little machine that defiantly fought the mighty luftwaffe.
jxvwp 1 year ago
also...
The book described the german pilot pulling alongside before, then afterward, showing incredible surprise.. and waving goodbye and leaving him be. (maybe because he had no ammo left, your guess is as good as mine)
Awesome.
elperronegro 2 years ago
I read about this incident in a book, I'm trying to remember the title of it but I recall it was written by a commanding officer of a p47 unit. The Pilot here was not wearing goggles or had to remove his goggles after the fire went out becouse they were a mess.
The Fw only had his top mounted guns left and the P47 pilot sat curled in a bal in his airplane.
elperronegro 2 years ago
elperronegro, twas johson who was the pilot of this p-47. by the time of the inceident, he flew without his flying goggles as he had them repaired at that time. his eyers was stung by teh hydraulic spray on the cockpit, and has to fly the jug half blind.
burjegol 2 years ago
burjegol, thanks for the details. I couldn't find my old book anywhere :(
elperronegro 2 years ago
@elperronegro The book is called " Thunderbolt " and was written by Robert S. Johnson, the pilot in this video. Hope this helps.
Rikki0 1 year ago
@Rikki0... Thanks as well :)
I'd like to read that book again sometime. I think I read it first when I was in 8th grade/1st year HS.
I'm such a Jug fan. I think that book influenced my preference over the pretty mustang.
elperronegro 1 year ago
Egon Mayer! Do the things right! Kill the Thunderbolt
EDquetrabalhamuito 2 years ago
the Fw190 A had four wing mounted 20s an two machine guns above the engine
Alacastor450 2 years ago
Maybe its a stupid idea, but maybe FW was out of cannon ammo and he had shoot only machineguns. :-o
Zatracenec 2 years ago
y does it say Meyer is using 30cals? the 190 had 4 20mm in the wings and 2 in the nose..this vid shows him firing guns out of his wings haha love it. Still awesome vid, P47 is pretty cool
CMDRFandragon 2 years ago
i saw that 2
msmusic4evr 2 years ago
Earlier FW 190's had twin MG 17 7.92mm (.31cal) MGs and four 20mm cannon in the wings, twin MG151/20's in the wing roots and two MG FF in the outboard positions. The MG FF's were frequently removed to save weight; the FF was a heavy gun. Later versions replaced the MG FF's with lighter MG151/20's, and in the A-8 the 7.92mm MG 17s were finally replaced with 13mm (.51cal) MG131 heavy machine guns. Apparently the MG 17s were popular because the tracer rounds had similar ballistics to 20mm ammo.
justforever96 2 years ago
AWESOME
randomvidz14 2 years ago