Johannes Lecküchner's Kunst des Messerfechtens

[KnightlyNerd]

Can these techniques be adapted to a single handed, double edged, medieval sword?

[pe003]

very similar to foiree's longsword style and some of george silvers sword techniques! nicly done

[waterzoip]

nice

[mouthforwar17]

korpiklaani and swords...cant have a better combo than that

[Mistwraith99]

Intriguing... I'm currently studying Meyer's messer techniques, but Leckuchner seems to be a lot more focussed on working from / with the bind. Seems to be a recurring theme of Meyer to 'flit' between targets rather than work with the bind.

What messers are you using, if you don't mind me asking? I've had no luck finding anything affordable.

[IKEEMBLEM]

is there any historical facts or classes on dual weilding these falchions?

[Ranziel1]

@IKEEMBLEM Not that I know of. Though messer and buckler is pretty much "dual wielding", but using two of similar weapons at the same time is not something that was done in real combat. Or, at least, those who tried never lived long enough to tell about it.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@Ranziel1 Pretty much the only historical dual-wielding is a rapier&dagger. Unless you count a buckler as a weapon.

[ChishioAme]

@DiabolusIgnis There were others (two rapier, two arming swords, presumably two messers), but for the most part, you are correct. Sword & dagger is really the only historical dual wielding scenario.

[DiabolusIgnis]

@ChishioAme That's why the 'pretty much'. ;)

[CenrionPrime]

i dont mean use two hands to use the messer i mean use the other hand to punsh or grip the enemy

[CenrionPrime]

you have two hands use them

[MEMAG]

@CenrionPrime The messer has more reach and maneuverability with one hand.

[MotusSwordsmanship]

@MEMAG

I think he suggests to use the left hand too and not both on the messer ;)

[EgholmViking]

@MEMAG i think he ment the the hand on your back, but this isnt war fighting as much as it is dueling one on one, and therefore a kind of honor is involved

[ironwolg]

it seems like these moves work best if your opponent is only moving when you want them to lol cool vid though, awesome music choice

[BIUUftr]

It's just a move that seems to impractical for use, thanks for the refreshing change of debate

[BIUUftr]

My argument isn't purely that holding the blade will lose your hand but that a smart opponent may strike the blade forcing you to grip harder cutting yourself or you let go to avoid the cut. There's also the problem of the opponent grabing the hilt and wrenching it from your hand.

[Ranziel1]

Such a move is more of a dirty trick, a surprise move. But it can work, just needs to be executed carefully, when your the swords are out of the bind etc.

[BIUUftr]

This is a nice play but much of this is impractical. If you hold the blade of a sword and swing with the handle you'll lose a hand if your lucky. You might be better off surrendering.

[maaderllin]

Manuscripts shows techniques when one of the two characters holds the sword by the blade. there's a proper way to hold it without getting a hand cuted.

[HipposHateWater]

@BIUUftr

(I realize that this comment is old, but I'll post this anyways for the lurkers thinking the same thing.)

Lots of modern-day HEMA/RMA practitioners have first-hand experience half-swording and doing mordschlags and such with live blades. (Not against people of course, but against hard targets and such.)

Hell, John Clements of The ARMA has a nice video uploaded on YouTube where he basically plays tug-of-war with a sharp sword. It is in no way "impractical." :P

[Marxbruder505]

I have one criticism and that is that only the person preforming the technique is using any footwork. A resisting opponent will adjust and step along with you, often fundamentally altering how you must preform the technique.

[MEMAG]

Completely agreed, but since we had no cameraman we were forced to keep the action centered.

[warzechas]

Thanks for this nice video.

Corey - was great meeting you at WMAW!

Roland

[MEMAG]

It was great meeting you too, Roland! I very much hope to get the chance to do so again. As for the video, there are many little mistakes here and there, so be forewarned!

[NewZealfighter]

I really like you guys and the work you come out with.

Nice research and nice teaching

[Ranziel1]

It didn't look like he lost control of the opposing blade to me. It might have looked so because of the slow pace of demonstration, but he is actually playing with opponent's blade pressure, look closely, he broke the bind when the pressure was to the side and then re-bound and executed a Duplieren of a sort.

[MEMAG]

Yep.

[Marxbruder505]

sorry, I hit the wrong hand button. I meant to agree with you.

[xtimtimx1198]

don't worry i fixed it lol

[BadMartini]

Very nice you guys have some rea skills.But some of the moves looked like you lost controll of the enemys blade, 0:41 for example.

I don't want to seem like a smartass, i just know my self from fighting longsword, when you bind and then loose the opponents weapon, you just get hit or stabbed.

Do you do dagger-wrestling allso? Just wanted to know.

[MEMAG]

Thanks. In that play (and every other time one of us leaves the bind) the opponent's pressure is to the side, and therefore not threatening us. This is the safe and right time to leave the bind and attack the openings on the other side. Yes, we do dagger and wrestling as well, and have some videos depicting our interpretations those disciplines up.

[cupaniopsis1]

Waiting for some Korpiklaani as background music, great videos!

[mrbeast85]

Good video guys. You know I keep seeing messers being used in WMA videos, they look pretty cool; think I'll have to get me one of those ;-)

[Ranziel1]

You guys improved, thanks for the videos.

[MEMAG]

Thanks!

[bowman2064]

Great Video. 5* for it. Thats a video which i as beginner can use. Step by step and every attack and defense is clearly to see. Thanks a lot !

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[mitsotribal]

Some techniques look dangerous...You are using blunt swords but I wonder would u be able to grab the sharp edge of a sharp sword and do that tecniques?

[MEMAG]

Yep, you sure can. I've personally done many of these techniques with a sharp sword. The trick is to grip the blade tightly so that it doesn't shift in your hand. I highly recommend caution though...

[mitsotribal]

Yes...

With a Japanese katana???....NO! lol...

Could a European swordman stand a chance against a Japanese swordman?

[MEMAG]

Yes, of course they could.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

The Japanese typically grip their blade along the back, though I've seen some pictures of Koryu Japanese practicioners seeming to grab it all the way around. Keep in mind that some Samurai blunted their blades somewhat before battle to preserve the edge. European and Japanese swordsmen had very similar skillsets, so saying who would win is pointless. There's nothing I've seen in classical Japanese swordsmanship that isn't in medieval and Renaissance European swordsmanship.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

As an aside, last year I had the pleasure of demonstrating German longsword for a Menkyo Kaiden of a Japanese Koryu sword art. He said "it looks a lot like our advanced stuff". :) There's really nothing new under the sun. A sword is a sword, and there are only so many things you can do with one in a combat situation.

[drake919]

Excellent work. Looks very good. Thank you for also making sure that the footwork is visible. Would these plays also be appropriate for the dusack?

[MEMAG]

Thank you! I'm sure some of these plays are applicable to the Dussack, but I think it would be better to follow the teachings written specifically for that weapon.

[cerkuenik]

I really liked the video, it´s very interesting and show really well the moves, it looks that it has a lot of winden techniques just like the longsword.

The only thing awkward for me is the hand in the back..why is there? It looks like modern fencing..

When the other hand comes into play then it looks like a martial art (to me).

What do you guys think?

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

As far as the hand behind the back, it seems like the that is safest place to keep it until you need it. Other Masters who fight with the Messer put their off-hands flat against their stomachs.

[cerkuenik]

Against the stomach seems more pratical (to me) like in a dagger fighting.

but thanks for the explanation!

[Caliburnis]

I think it depends upon what you're trying to do. For instance, putting it against your stomach, you can more readily use it for hand techniques, but that means it's still a target. If you put it behind your back, you're depriving your opponent of that very same target, though at the cost of having hand techniques being less readily accessible.

[MEMAG]

Thank you... again! :)

[Deuce044]

While I haven't seen Liechtenhauer's messer manual, a lot of the plates look like the ones from Talhoffer's fecthbuch.

Is that just me or could it be indication of Liechtenhauer's influences on Talhoffer?

[MEMAG]

Talhoffer was a Master in the Liechtenauer tradition. Lecküchner, who is the author of this particular manuscript, was also in the Liechtenauer tradition, and wrote at a somewhat later date than Talhoffer.

[Deuce044]

Interesting. And I honestly thought that Leckuchner was an alternate spelling for Liecthenhauer... I guess I'll be going to bed a bit smarter tonight.

[MEMAG]

Glad to help!

[Djemps]

Wow. Awesome new Logo. Who painted that for you guys?

[MEMAG]

Thanks! That would be the work of my girlfriend, Lauren.

[purebaldfury]

No Backgammon ?

[MEMAG]

Not this time, and we didn't have enough people to throw anyone in a sack!

[MarkHolgate]

images are sourced from .... ?

[MEMAG]

That would be a good thing to include...

Johannes Lecküchner - Cgm 582

Scans of this work can be found online at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek. A transcription by Hans Heim can also be found online.

[Leondrian]

Hey again Cory! Nicely executed video;-)

Really love when one of you have a cap 'cuz the person in the manuscript wears one.

Have you ever thought about wearing helmets so you can land the hits in your demonstrations? I sometimes miss if the cuts are done as a deception or not, because I haven't looked at the messer yet. One of my future project though.

Great demo either way.

Sincerely

Robert

[MEMAG]

Hey Robert! Thank you!

We have thought about helmets, but decided not to go with them at least in this video. Thanks for the suggestion though. The best thing to remember is that every attack is intended to hit until you see it will be parried.

Take care,

Cory

[Leondrian]

Sorry for the late response. I hold that in mind.

Take care

Robert

[Flow1987]

very nice...like ur other stuff.

i'd love to see some freefight with the messer.

keep it up

[MEMAG]

Thank you, and we'll try to get some up eventually.

[hopper990]

another great vid! I really like the atention to detail!

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

There are a few mistakes yet, but we didn't catch them until after finishing the video. I'll try to list them in the Info box as we find them.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

Good job guys! Keep up with the messer stuff! There's not enough of it being done. :)

[MEMAG]

Thanks. We really love the Messer, and there is so much material to work with...

[Spartiatai300]

Really a great video, I will certainly practice European martial arts one day!

[MEMAG]

Thank you, and I hope that you do.

[88Grin]

3:38 - Thief!

haha very nice

[MEMAG]

:)

Thanks!

[LordEinar]

Awesome vid. Looking forward to the workshop.

M.

[MEMAG]

Thanks, so are we!

[12Macedonian12]

1st comment whoo hoo lol

very niceand keep it up 5 stars not so sure about the music though lol

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[12Macedonian12]

no problem I love what you guys do

the only problem is that I cant do it myself

(dont have the $)

;-D