Pope Lifts Excommunications of 4 SSPX Bishops

[JamesFrancis1000]

SSPV is the last man standing, the sspx priests are obviously schismatic. I mean how do you recognize a man (joseph ratzinger) who is leading countless down a dark path as your leader or even a legit member of the church when he's doing something beyond evil? I just don't get it.. Unless they're trying to restore the vatican II sect to the old rite, I don't see any reason why they speak to those devils ..

[skyeblaze100]

Dear Rev Father,

congrats on the uplifting of the excommunication on the 4 bishops. now we have to pray for the integrity of Archbishop Lefebvre and his companion to be restored also.

God bless!

[platmosic]

I just don't understand how SSPX can be the "most correct Christians" when there are other traditionalist groups (not traditional), even sedevacanist groups, such as SSPV (incidentally splitted from SSPX). How is that unity at all? That's sounds more protestant that catholic.

[Oblationem]

@platmosic

The good thing about ALL traditionalists is that they fight the good fight for Tradition. Our unity is in the True Faith and the Mass of All Time. G.K. Chesterton said: “The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him”. It’s hard to tell what the Novus Ordo fights for; the last forty years, Vatican II and Ecumenism I suppose? Certainly not for what the Church has always taught…

[TheHB21]

@platmosic i find it funnny that you say that i sounds protestant to you the position that SSPX takes when in the new mass you can find many protestant leanings, for example luther(the first protestant) wanted the mass to be said in the vernacular language, which is done now in the new mass and now people just grab the HOLY EUCHARIST in their hands and receive it, that is a terrible sacrilege, or tell me are you worthy to grab OUR LORD, OUR GOD in your hands?? i am certainly not worthy

[sedesvacans]

@platmosic Not if the "church" itself has turned its back on Christ! Thee SSPX are confused, though, because they want acceptance from a false pope. Why? What are they afraid of?

[woodyaan]

You courageously as Archbishop Lefebvre did should declare B16, a promoter of homosexuality and paganism, as an anti-pope . You will lose your faith. It is a treason to your bishop.

[woodyaan]

He is not pope at all.

You don’t need his Judas’ kiss.

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

From the lips of babes, thou hast perfected praise! Why do churches have a cry room?! I'm Catholic and I believe in bringing babies and children into Mass.

[Oblationem]

The Church has always taught that no child under the age of reason is obligated to assist at the Holy Sacrifice. Some fault, in this sense, lies with Novus Ordo pastors who do not make this known to their congregations. If there is no "cry room" and if a child is not able to sit quietly, then the child is not ready to be brought to church, the parents should make other arrangements or stay home. If it’s just an assembly, and not a sacrifice of the Mass, then what the heck...

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

@Oblationem Well given the fact that I am a theology student, I do understand the Mass to be a sacrifce, as you say and not an assembly; however, I simply think that people use their children as an excuse NOT to go to Mass. I believe it all comes down to teaching your kids to sit still. If it gets to noisy, then one of the parents can always go to the back of the Church (usually there are doors that separate the entry way from the church).

[bedtime4bonz]

@ChristoEtEcclesiae because we who also attend, would like to hear mass & the sermon & not your kids screaming...

[silentcal72]

To those of you who are in the process of being swept up into "rad trad" mania: read the comments of Oblationem and then read up on schism. The problem with the rad trad set is they do not have, or have lost, the sense of reality necessary to accept the real Church with real human beings and flaws and mistakes, so they reject the Church of sinners and cling to their small self-righteous sect, romanticising an inaccurate past and losing the whole ballgame in the end.

[Oblationem]

1. Yes, please do read up on schism and heresy. A schismatic is one who leaves the truth, not the one who insists upon it.

We are either heretic nor schismatic Communion with the local bishop (i.e. respect for authority) is indeed a hallmark of being Catholic. We traditional Catholics claim to safeguard and reinforce the bishop’s authority through our adherence to the faith of 2000 years, eloquently expressed in the Traditional Mass.

[Oblationem]

2. We fully subscribe to the truths cited in the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch (110AD): the bishop teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ; there is only one faith (refusing “strange doctrines”, i.e. heresies), “one Eucharist” (i.e. Mass) which must express that faith, and “one altar” (i.e. sacrifice). Fidelity to the Mass of all times therefore corroborates the bishop’s authority as surely as the influx of false doctrines undermines it.

[ominoreg]

Very happy for SSPX! As a Roman Catholic, I look forward to the day that the entire society will be in full communion with the Universal Church. God bless Fr. Daniel. He's a great presbyter - a noble servant of God and a gracious presider of the community he leads. =)

[Oblationem]

Fr. Cooper is not a (presbyter) or (presider), he is a real Catholic priest. However as you say, he is a noble servant of God.

[ominoreg]

@Oblationem - Oh my, you seem put off by my comment. I never questioned his priesthood nor did I quantify his Catholicism. I meant no disrespect. The order of the Priesthood is referred to as the Presbyterate theres the Diaconate for Deacons & the Episcopate for Bishops. Hes the Presider-the leader of worship. His chair at the sanctuary is a symbol of that. I'm not at all mitigating Fr. Daniel's capacity as a priest.

[Oblationem]

Bullshit.

[ominoreg]

@Oblationem - I admired your devotion until you used profanity. Well, I won't push a square peg in a round hole. you're free to do what you want -  I just hope you did so with a little bit more knowledge of terminology and a lot of restraint with language. nice day to you.

[Jitpring]

@ominoreg Vatican II has infected you. The priest is not a mere "leader of worship," like a stinking Protestant pastor. The priest is nothing less than an Alter Christus. You need to read Archbishop Lefebvre's Open Letter to Confused Catholics.

[ominoreg]

@Jitpring

Look at what I wrote. I never limited the priest's role to only leader of worship. I said that Priests are leaders of worship and the presider's chair at the sanctuary is a symbol of that. That's not a "stinking" role, it's the office installed by God to the order of Melchizedek. Please read the bible in addition to Bishop's letters. For one who totes superior christianity, you don't exhibit it's precepts - love, charity and humility. I pray for peace in your heart.

[Oblationem]

@ominoreg

It’s not called a “presider’s chair as you call it, it’s called a sedia.

Your whole premise is wrong and uncatholic.

A celebrant or presbyter, which is what the New Religion calls its priests, sit on a presider’s chair, you know, like Protestants do – anyone can sit on a presider’s chair.

I/we don’t claim to be superior, I just claim to be Catholic and am far from perfect.

See the youtube video, “New Religion New Mass”.

[ominoreg]

@Oblationem

Sedia is just another word for Chair. You missed the point of my comment and are spliting hairs over semantics . Latin words don’t make things more official. It’s the symbolism behind the objects.

I’m wasting my time and yours. A colloquy with you is moot. Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I alluded. You’ve lost the message of Christianity in your fervor to remain within the margins of tradition. I pray for you as well. This is my last comment. God's peace.

[Oblationem]

@ominoreg

Yes a sedia is another word for chair, and the symbolism is that only a priest can sit on it.

If the message of Christianity is love, why not try Hinduism instead of Novus Ordoism?

I lived in an Ashram in India many years ago and I can tell you they were are lovely people, lots of love there. I think your problem is you’re trying to love people out of their Catholic faith eh? Novus Ordoism has become something bigger than the Catholic Churcu/faith. Who loves more..?

[Oblationem]

No, the SSPX does not need the Vaticans money. More likely, the other way around.

Moreover I'll tell you that JP2 was one of the worse popes the Church ever had. The SSPX are not traitors, they only want to practice and enjoy what Catholics for 2,000 years have enjoyed. It is the Novus Ordo who has left the Church.

[RedRedOC]

@Oblationem For retired conductor & Marine, you seem to have a lot of opinion formed about Pope John Paul II. Did you conduct his train? In your other posts, you condemn the Roman Catholic church, but your own bishops and your own Fr. Cooper call the lift on excommunication as a joyous occasion. Maybe you should condemn them first for not seeing the RCC the same way you do.

[TheTripleDonation]

SSPX are schizophrenics!!

They just need the money (Vatican) and are too scared to openly (they will tell you how horrible John Paul 2 was etc. in private) deny the usurpers of the Church!

[Alltruthseeker]

SSPX should read what St. Irenaeus (2nd century) wrote: "With this church of Rome, all the churches must agree". Many Anglican bishops are rightly seeking union with Rome, as many Orthodox bishops over the past 5 centuries have done (Half of my Orthodox bishops voted in synod to reunite with Rome in 1724). Today many Orthodox bishops (as in Bulgaria) are seeking union with Rome. The Spirit is leading the churches to the fullness of truth. SSPX should do likewise for the Keys belong to Peter.

[Oblationem]

Today, Peters Key is full of rust that wont fit into the lock of Gospel and Catholic Doctrine. Its like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. It would be better for those separated from the Church were to seek union with the SSPX rather than the New Church as they (SSPX) holds to the true Gospel and Doctrine. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Vatican II preaches another doctrine.

[planetar4564]

You either are obedient to the Pope, or you are not. Either you are part of the Eternal Church, or you are not. So called "Traditional" Catholics are actually Covenant Breakers, who forsake the Church of God for the sake of their pride. I trust the Holy Father's decision to grant them mercy, but I hope they can show their good-will.

[Oblationem]

A man's opinions are generally of much more value than his arguments...

O.W. Holmes

[SanJuana1985]

@planetar4564 You can have your baloons, your clowns, priestesses, altar girls, gay priests, your new hideous churches, and all your parafernalia. I prefer to stick to the eternal Truth of the Catholic Church.

[bobbyva2007]

I hope SSPX enters back into full communion with the church. It seems they hold themselves over the authority of the pope and I hope that pride does not prevent their reconciliation.

[Oblationem]

It is better to be in full communion with eternal Rome and the teachings of the Catholic Church. However, yes I think the SSPX wants to be in communion with the pope, but at what price? Who will fight for the teachings of the Catholic Church if the SSPX is overcome, the Novus Ordo bishops? Should they follow the example of the pope? At what point should a Catholic doubt that any pope is a true pope, what would a pope have to say, do or allow? 58 percent of Novus Ordo priests are homosexuals.

[TheEcumenator]

the common view within SSPX today is that there is no salvation outside the SSPX, not the Church itself!

[Oblationem]

I don't know anyone who thinks that.

[TheEcumenator]

Bishop Williamson has claimed several times that Rome must, convert.

He is implying that the Church as a whole has it wrong.

[Oblationem]

I cant speak for Bp. Williamson, but I think he is correct. Rome is not practicing the Faith of Our Fathers its plain to see. Rome does not support or follow its own rules that are in constant change. Will they go to heaven, I dont know? Right now, Rome is akin to Obama, in that everything Rome and Obama are trying to do has been tried and failed; yet they persist. Catholics just want to be Catholic, and Traditionalists live a more Catholic life than do Novus Ordos. By their fruits eh?

[xipe02]

@TheEcumenator Not the Church as a whole... only 90%.

[piojunbabia1]

@Oblationem i used to think that sir, but now no more... "Outside the Catholic Church, there is no Salvation" it is still a dogma of our Faith and SSPX did not change that... SSPX must unite with Rome but Rome must fix Her error and go back to the Orthodoxity of the Gospel which the SSPX is holding....

[piojunbabia1]

@TheEcumenator I used to think that OUTSIDE SSPX, THERE IS NO SALVATION, but I realized I become a SEDEVACANTIST which SSPX dont teach... I stand Corrected about my notion with regards to that..

[losackp]

I prefer the teachings of Christ.

[lovelyethereal]

That seems a bit disconnected as the bulk of the video explains the details of being accepted back into full communion, as far as pride is concerned, just leave it to some of these headstrong guys who feel compelled to keep making up more rules and laws...

[liamthedream]

Pride cometh before the fall. SSPX are very nice people but are slightly misguided. If one can find a Tridentine in their diocese they can go but at the end of the day, Rome is the true head of the Catholic Church.

[drakeshelton]

For me as a Protestant, which Catholics I find know very little of, this conversation is sweet vindication. To those of us who are Protestants viz., who believe that the papacy is the antichrist and practice the original liturgy of the early church, viz., exclusive psalm singing without musical instruments, which is the real 2000 year old liturgy, the fact that catholics and orthodox refer to these American evangelicals as protestants affords us even more vindication

[Oblationem]

You are not in the Church that Christ founded; you are protesting against it, and you find vindication in that? Go figure. There are times when we dont play the organ, and this being the time of Advent we are presently not playing the organ. Why would you even care? If you want to save your soul and truly want to know what Christ is all about, study Traditional Catholicism

[drakeshelton]

You miss the whole point. The first things of God's religion is worship. You do not have the original liturgy, we do. Therefore, you are not in the church that Christ founded. I find it quite warming and refreshing that you seem to be admitting that the early Church forbade musical instruments in worship. However, you glory in association with some visible organization, the same thing the Pharisees trusted in.

[Oblationem]

Greek word "Apostolos" means "he who is sent". So who are the "they" who are those sent, and by whom are "they" sent?

The same Greek word, apostello, is used by Jesus Christ when He spoke to His "Apostolos" in John 20:21:

"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.""It is obvious that those who are sent (apostello) by GOD are also given authority by Jesus Christ who is GOD. That authority was delegated to the Apostles alone by Jesus Christ.

[Oblationem]

Non-Catholic preachers will have a hard time trying to prove that they were sent by the authority of GOD since they are not in the line of succession going all the way back to the Apostles. So by what authority do these persons preach? They cannot claim that "GOD told me,

Anyone can utter the excuse that "GOD told me! History is repleat with heretics, criminals, dictators, and despots who used that term as their supposed justification for their evil deeds.

[drakeshelton]

Where did my other post go? Then you need to be Greek orthodox, not RC. I believe it was Irenaeus who spoke of Apostolic succesion being in reference to be a succesion in doctrine. Come back to the original liturgy in the Church of Scotland Tradition my friend. Come back home.

[Oblationem]

This is not a site for you as a Protestant to post what you want to. The Greek/Eastern church is in schism since 1054 from the Church that Christ founded. They are akin to you having no authority. The original liturgy started with the Last Supper.

[patrianews]

Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia, Ibi Deus  This Latin quote, attributed to St. Ambrose means Where Peter is, there is the Church, there is God. Nothing is clearer. Historically speaking, Traditional Catholics are the doctrinal heirs of the original Christians

[SanJuana1985]

@drakeshelton You want a custom-made religion, a protestant concoction, no less.

[Oblationem]

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all."

Martin Luther, commentary on St. John.

[drakeshelton]

you did not post my reply. Is it because you have no answer?

[michaelsvm]

I used to believe that the Tridentine Mass, was the ONLY way to go, but after learning about how the tridentine mass was in fact a liturgical reform itself, that still allowed for a number of other accepted rites to persist, I had to ask myself is the tridentine rite the "only" a mass should be? I mean the tridentine mass has to be vastly different than those that took place in the first 100 years of Christendom, right?

[Oblationem]

Dont know about the first 100 yrs, but I do know that the Tridentine Mass dates back to the first Mass (The Last Supper), also in its present form dates back to about the year 400 AD with minor changes since. The Novus Ordo dates back to 1969 and does not represent what the Catholic Church says it believes. However the Tridentine Mass does. Every movement has a reason and represents what we Catholics say we believe. Personal opinion is: that we should be using pre 1954 or 1955, I forget which

[IrishAustrianCath]

Is there a SSPX in philadelphia PA

[Oblationem]

Go to SSPXdotorg and find out...

Good luck.

[IrishAustrianCath]

Thanks

[piojunbabia1]

@michaelsvm the Roman Rite of Mass which roots can be referenced to the Last Supper, was one of the many rites of the Church (ie, Byzantine, Coptic, etc) later during the Protestant Revolution, the Council of Trent was moved by the presence of necessity to Canonize a UNIVERSAL rite and no other rite should be used, they have decided to USE the ROMAN rite, a few editions were made but essential parts are kept intact. This Roman Rite of Mass, they call it Tridentine Mass.. reference: QUO PRIMUM

[TheEcumenator]

Im still confused about this view of the SSPX.

Is it against the Novus Ordo mass?

Or is it only against the liturgical abuses which are being celebrated by it in modern times?

[Oblationem]

The view of the SSPX is varied according to who you talk to. I am a layman and speak for myself. The Novus Ordo mass itself is an abuse even if everyone acted as pius as possible. Its performed on a protestant table with the presbyter's back turned to God. Women in the sanctuary handling what is suppose to be the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. It was concocted by a Freemason and six Protestants. There is doubt about the consecration, priests and bishops orders, the list goes on and on

[TheEcumenator]

Honestly that is not how the mass was made. If you read Sacrosanctum Concilium from Vatican II, you will see that the Novus Ordo had to be even in Latin and celebrated Ad Orientem, with the communion kneeling

[Oblationem]

Well, its kind of like this: Obama is the president, maybe? As he wont even show an original birth certificate. He and his communists are in charge and they do what they want to regardless of what it has always meant to be an American.

The pope and the bishops are in charge. The last few popes did not even take the oath of office that the previous popes took; anyway they do what they want to regardless of what the Church has always taught. We live a Catholic life in spite of them.

[silentcal72]

@Oblationem I can assume that you are also a convinced believer in the "Judeo-Masonic" conspiry(ies), right? There has always been throughout history a certain type of mind which latches onto conspiracy theories; it is usually a highly rationalistic mind, but it is not rational.

[SA4evor]

Protestants pick and choose what they want to believe if you don't like it join another club or stay under the same denomination but create your own club. Catholics don't do this if you want to belong to the Catholic Church your either in or out the pope has given you an excellent chance to come back. How can anyone claim to be a catholic and insist on remaining disobedient to the Pope the head of the catholic church????

[Oblationem]

Yes, you are correct. Protestants and the Novus Ordo new church (small C) pick and choose what they want to believe and follow. I suggest YOU choose a different name other than Catholic.

We traditionalists want to worship and practice the Catholic Faith as our forefathers did. We dont want a new way of practicing the sacraments as YOU do, which is a Protestant way of doing things. I am pleased to be disobedient in defending the Traditional Catholic Faith and Papacy as our forefathers did

[SA4evor]

Your forefathers must be luther and henry VIII then? Since when did Catholic fore fathers approve of disobidience to the pope or engage in such action to a point they started a new "church"? They followed and trusted that the gates of hell will not prevail against Gods church and WERE NOT disobidient to the Pope, they trusted God and his word! Your words above even show your church (small C) was founded on what man wanted not God.

[Oblationem]

Yes St. Athanasius & Traditionalists were/are disobedient because he wanted to stay true the teachings of the Catholic Church, it is the Novus Ordo who adopted Luther and his Protestant ways. It is (you) who have mass (small m) on a table, women in the sanctuary, receive standing, changed the words of Christ at the consecration of the wine and changed the form of ordination for priests, bishops and even the papacy casting doubt on their ordination. Its time to get your head out of the sand

[patrianews]

Only lucifer uses your language and your disingenuous arguments. Disobedience to Catholic Tradition is never obedience to the Pope. "More than the Lord Pope, I wish to please the Pope's Lord," wisely said Saint Peter Canisius. Only those who obey Catholic Tradition, defend and obey the Pope, even when their obedience may not be apparent to others or may seem as "disobedience." Those who disobey Catholic Tradition, disobey the Pope, even if they appear to obey him.

[Oblationem]

(1 of 2)

A well-established principle in Catholic theology that goes back to the classical Greeks, particularly Aristotle. This principle, known in Greek as epieikeia and later Latinized to epikeia, holds that a law cannot be perverted from the intent of its legislator. This principle was taken into Catholic theology by such great Doctors of the Church as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. It is enshrined in the Decretals, the Codex of 1917, and even the modernist Codex of 1983. [Traditio]

[Oblationem]

(2 of 2)

"The letter killeth: but the spirit quickeneth" (2 Corinthians 3:6/DRV). Traditional Catholics have used this principle, among many other well-established Catholic principles, to repulse prelates who would try to use the Roman Catholic Faith against itself, to use "obedience to the letter of the [Novus Ordo] law" to strip Catholics of the true Mass, Sacraments, doctrine, and morality. They can't do that folks. Catholic theology makes such actions null and void.

[From Traditio]

[xipe02]

BEing Catholic is a way of life. The new mass has Lutheran and Anglican elements to it to make it more palatable for Protestants, in order to create an "ecumenical mass" for all the Christians. You can check these elements one by one in pertinent literature. Pax Christi.

[hovogliadileggere]

against Novus ordo

[LiturgicalChants]

my main beef with this priest is his encouragement to send our babies into the cry rooms. Thats a post vatican II influence.

[Oblationem]

If that is your main beef, you have much to be thankful for.

[iamlondon]

Not Catholic. Not Catholic. Not Catholic.

Nice theatre, nice robes. Don't accept authority of Rome? Then they're NOT CATHOLIC.

[Oblationem]

The Pope thinks we are Catholic.

[chrischutebox]

were not catholic? lol i used to be a noves ordo at one time in my life and i will say members from the sspx TRADTIONAL CATHOLIC are much more devoted than a noves ordo....look at who has more in common with a protestant church..

latin mass or noves ordo..? lol its very clear who is catholic....oh by the way tradtional catholic are growing more and more thank God..ill be praying more noves ordo see the truth and do their study's on whats really catholic..

[JiunLinJAV]

Changing the tradition is risking the faith. Keeping it is teasuring it.

[iamlondon]

They're not Catholics, I wish people would stop pretending they are. They're disloyal, misguided cranks and the excommunications should never have been lifted.

[Oblationem]

Roman Protestants crack me up. You Protestantnize the mass (small m), you give away titles of the Papacy, you apologize to the world for being Catholic, archdioceses filling bankruptcy for raping little children, (increasing) you try to change the Rosary, do every conceivable thing you can think of to destroy the traditions of Church. The Pope writes books contradicting the dogmas of the Church and you call us not Catholic because we stand firm. Second Thess 2:14

Frankly, a stinking sewer.

[FatherRayDominick]

My sentiments exactly. Why would ANY Proper Catholic appologize for being Catholic and try to APPEASE Protestants, Jews, ect?! Its appalling!

There is only ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Novus Ordo Catholic are trying to make two. They must be out-rooted.

[baguazhang77]

Regarding the pedophile scandal:

1) "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted" (Matt 23:12)

2) "In the Church there are good and bad, predestinate and reprobate" (St. Fracis De Sales, "The Catholic Controversy: In Defense of the Faith")

Did not Jesus choose sinners to carry on His Church? We clearly cannot permit the behaviors you speak of for one second, but to invalidate the Church because individuals within it sin is baseless.

[silentcal72]

@iamlondon There are many misguided, ignorant, and paranoid people in the traditionalist movement, but according to the Church, as I understand the consensus over the years since '88 the SSPX people and the priests are not presumed to be out of the Church or non-Catholics. Also, now that the bishops have had the excommunications lifted, I would think they are in the same position. But that does not make their opinions legit or their disobedience alright.

[Tuxster3]

This was NOT a "so-called" excommunication"! It WAS an excommunication!

Frankly, it should not have been lifted.

You people are out of communion with Rome.

As a Roman Catholic, one either follows the Holy Father and obedience to Rome -- or one doesn't.

You people don't.

To put it bluntly, one Pope at a time!

The so-called founder of your "movement" was NOT a Pope.

[Oblationem]

We people want to be Catholic, thats all. Nothing more, nothing less. We dont want to worship like Protestants. We want our theology to support Catholicism, not ecumism. We want our pope to act like the Vicar of Christ not just one among many; it is a sin against the First Commandment that the present pope causes such scandal. If (We People) as you say dont fight for Catholicism, will you? Your history says, NO!. Each Novus Ordo bishop is his own pope, not us. Get off your high horse.

[Tuxster3]

No, dear heart, I'm far from sitting atop my giddy-up.

The bottom line is this: through St. Peter, there is only ONE Vicar of Christ. The founder of your movement was never such a Vicar.

As a Roman Catholic, one is either with Rome or not.

[Oblationem]

Neither the SSPX nor anybody else ever claimed that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was pope He himself would never claim such a ridiculous thing, he had too much respect for the Papacy. However we do claim that he handed-on what he received. I/we can prove that these modern-day popes have not handed-on what the Church has always considered Tradition. Why does Rome refuse to discuss Dogma?

[Tuxster3]

Rome readily discusses dogma. This is a non-issue.

More importantly, Lefebvre was ordered NOT to consecrate those gentlemen -- he disobeyed and went ahead and did it anyway.

Who was right? Who was wrong?

Obviously, we KNOW who was wrong.  The one who was excommunicated was wrong.

If Lefebvre had "much respect for the Papacy" he would not have disobeyed.

[Oblationem]

When does Rome ever discuss Dogma? Dogma is a non-issue? Youre kidding right?

St., I said (St.) Athanasius was excommunicated three or four times, who was right and who was wrong?

Anyway, with any luck from the Holy Spirit the SSPX will be excommunicated again.

[1God1Church1Faith]

"Frankly, it should not have been lifted."

WHAT?!?!?! hey! you! stop treating these Catholics like they are less! Thank God that they are faithful Catholics! You should pray for the Church instead of being cynical!

[roverthedog01]

FALSE RELIGION.

[Oblationem]

Yes, anything other than the Catholic Faith is a false religion.

[roverthedog01]

If the Catholic faith were really Catholic it would not be so limited. Rome is a trap.

[Oblationem]

Yes I agree. New Romes new interpretations of the Catholic Faith are limited, an ambiguous snare to trap your soul. As are other religions other than the religion that Christ founded.

[roverthedog01]

I am an advocate of the Sanatana Dharma, Perennial Philosophy...which I believe is truly Universal.

[Oblationem]

Been there done that!

There are good people in Hinduism seeking God. I once went to India and lived in an Ashram looking for an experience of God. I had a wonderful experience , an opening of the Heart Chakra. If it had lasted more than the few moments that it did, I would have died from too-much love.

Even so, I came home and was baptized into the Catholic Church; the religion that Jesus the Christ founded. Love awaits us in heaven in the presence of our Lord. Experiment with truth...

[roverthedog01]

Dude, I joined the RC Church back in 2006. Felt like a prison to me. I left after a year. Previously I had spent 17 years as an Anglican/Old Catholic in Holy Orders.

I've gone back to saying a Mass from the Liberal Catholic Rite and keeping clear of denominations.

When I went RC I joined the Carmelites but I never felt that they took John of the Cross where he was indicating that they should go. Too frightened of offending the Pope. I don't accept Papal authority.

[Oblationem]

Later Dude...

[hockeyfighter21]

regardless of how many Jews died in the second world war, the fact is that many died, and many were persecuted. read hitler and his followers speeches and writings. the point is that many have died and were cruelly tortured. yes, many christians died and were tortured. the entire war was evil and many innocents died and suffered. lets not waste our time debating how many died. the point is that many died and let us prevent it from happening again. period

[Oblationem]

Tell that to the Jews, youre preaching to the choir. If one even thinks out loud they, the Jews will throw your butt in jail. His or her deaths and murders are more important than anyone elses. There were many more people murder than Jews but if you say otherwise, those people dont throw people in jail, but the Jews will. It makes people wonder why?

[Oblationem]

If you say so, I havent studied these matters and dont expect to, unless...

Im trying to live now and fight for the future. I believe in the freedom of speech. The Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting

Life is too short to dance with an ugly woman. This issue is an ugly woman. I pray that Bp. Williamson stays out of prison. If anyone puts him in jail, they will be sorry

[Oblationem]

Yes I agree. But we also acknowledge that there were thousands of Jews murdered during the Second World War. There were many (more) thousands of Christians and others murdered in the same war. People have a right to their own thoughts (or at least they should) and can make those thoughts public if they want to (without being thrown into jail). How dare the Jews, Germans etc to do such a thing.  It only casts doubt on what they are trying to say. The True Holocaust is Jesus Crucified.

[hockeyfighter21]

i am happy that the excommunications have been lifted. however, i pray for the return of sspx to full communion with the pope. i attend a traditonal mass that is in full communion with the vatican, please come back into communion sspx!!!!

[Oblationem]

If they (SSPX) do, I wonder what evils those in high places have in store for them?

Will they be forced into concelebrating the new mass?

Will they be forced into letting Novus Ordo priests say the 1962 Mass in their Chapels?

Will the 1962 Mass that they now say be continuously revised?

What Cardinal in Rome will be placed over them?

Why do they try so hard to beat the Catholic out of us?

I think the SSPX coming back will effect change about as much as the FSSP has.

[BroMikeey]

Deo Gracias!! for the revoke of the excommunication!!

[LiLbodyBigHead]

I don't think Pope Ben. XVI is "word smithing"; any dictionary will tell you what the word 'subsist' means: "To remain or continue in existence." ; persist; continue. It seems to me that Vatican 2 was saying, "Despite our ecumenical endeavors the Catholic Church CONTINUES [subsists] to be the Church of Christ." I always thought of it as a reassurance that despite the ecumania the Church is still THE Church.

[baldwalrus7]

Yes, I agree. Here's what Cardinal Dulles said on it: "The new term was proposed by Sebastian Tromp, S.J., who had previously favored 'est' and was a stout defender of the positions of Mystici Corporis. It is regrettable that the commentaries generally give the impression that subsistit in was a replacement for est and was introduced to provide for the ecclesial reality of other Christian communities. In point of fact, it was introduced as replacement for 'adest in' [present in] in order cont'd.

[SA4evor]

Oblationem your thoughts on Bishop Williamsons denial.

[Oblationem]

My thoughts are: It's a trap!

It is Christ being crucified again by the Jews, with the Germans and Argentines yelling, Crucify Him Crucify Him. And all of Bp. Williamsons friends all run and hid.

The true Holocaust is Jesus crucified. The Jews killed Christ, but Catholics do not hate Jews over this, that would be a sin. Rather, we pray for their conversion. The focus of the world should not be about the Jews Holocaust, how big or how small, but about Christ crucified.

[SA4evor]

Also the Jews had a firm tradition of laws appointed by God before Christ came on earth. When Christ came did he not change everything then that was considered traditional? Was that a modernist movement too for its time? Do you need Jesus here on earth telling you face to face that Novus Ordo was his plan for the church?

[Oblationem]

Yes, when Christ came He changed everything. He was not a modernist but a true radical. No I dont need Christ here on earth telling me face to face. He, Christ said He had to go so that He could send the Holy Spirit. Traditionalists follow every word and example that Christ and 2,000 yrs of Church teachings gave us. The Novus Ordo mass and VII goes against those teachings, and is a violation of the First Commandment.

[catholicpeter]

Id like to learn more about the society of St. Pius the X. He was an excelent pope 4 sure. But as for the society i still need to look into it.

[Oblationem]

Please do.

[chrischutebox]

i will just tell you that i have went to noves ordo masses for years and look into sspx and what a true blessing for sspx...u learn so much ..God bless

[Videoobserver]

Have you made it to a True Mass (SSPX) yet?

When you do, you will find the Holy Ghost working in your life.

[xipe02]

My own life change when I went to my first LAtin MAss. It was like a dream. Beautiful, the gregorian chant, the incense, the prayers, the people.

[SA4evor]

Ae? To please non-catholics? How? Protestant/Masonic Manner? Have you considered the possibility of Vatican II like other councils really being Gods plan and the Popes remaining obedient to the will of God?

[Oblationem]

Once I believed in Santa Claus, and once I believed (all) good things about the Catholic Church. But then I grew-up. I learned that the Catholic Church (IS) Gods Church; it just doesnt (subsist) in it. I learned that progressive minded VII men changed Jesus words from Scripture from (many) to (all). I learned that Catholics should kneel when receiving communion. I learned that boys should be in the sanctuary as that is where we get priests. I learned that, by their fruits you shall know them.

[baldwalrus7]

Pope Benedict himself explain the meaning of the word "subsists": that it means "exists as an autonymous entity" not that the church of Christ exists outside the Catholic Church.

[Oblationem]

Pope Benedict XVI is (word smithing) trying to save the Second Vatican Council by trying to defend the word (subsists). He calls it a hermeneutic interpretation and not a break with the continuity of tradition. However it goes against the oath against modernism and puts the word (subsists) among the shadows and illusions of false ecumenism that draws us away from God.

[Oblationem]

The fact is that the word (subsists) was used to give equal footing to non-Catholics and it is false ecumenism plain and simple. Some give scholarly explanations for the use of the word (subsists), but it is just part of VIIs double-speak. The Church of Christ (IS) the Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation. If we use the word (subsists) it plays well with false ecumenism, being equal and no need to belong to the Catholic Church. Should we pray with heretics as the pope does?

[baldwalrus7]

No, this is not a fact at all. Pope Benedict and Cardinal Dulles have both pointed out that this mistaken liberal interpretation is false. I have Muslims who tell me that to say Jesus is both God and man is "double speak... plain and simple", but this is not at all the case. I too disagree with ecumenism and that the Church of Christ IS the Catholic Church, nor should we pray with heretics. Nevertheless, subsistit was defended to replace 'adest in' which does teach what you say "subsistit" does.

[Oblationem]

To quote the present Pope and Cardinal Dulles does not give credit to your polemic. They are not friends of Tradition.

These present maneuvers of the Vatican are for the demise of Catholic Tradition.

Jesus who was/is both God and man founded a Church, the Catholic Church. It (IS) the Church He founded. There was no need to change the word (IS) to anything else, the meaning (IS) as plain as the nose on your face. It (IS) a sin to pray with Muslims

[baldwalrus7]

Goodness gracious! I think that I have told you clearly that I agree that Jesus founded one Church, the Catholic Church, and that it IS the Church He founded. I agree!

I was merely saying that your interpretation of Lumen Gentium has been rejected at high levels of the magesterium, and that the statement, while unfortunately ambiguous, is not necessarily in error. Can't you agree to a single point? If you're a representative, the SSPX seem to be the most polemical group one could encounter...

[Oblationem]

No! I do not agree. Yes, the statement by the magesterium is ambiguous as you say, and is also in error as it goes against 2,000 years of Church Traditions and teachings. I do not represent the SSPX, I am simply a layman.

[baldwalrus7]

How is it in error when I have explained how the Church Herself interprets it?

[Oblationem]

The short answer to your statement is: CREDIBILITY, as in distrust.

There have been many books written about this since Vatican II.

1.

It was Fr. Joseph Ratzinger who personally had the unorthodox (subsists in) phrase added at Vatican II. Lumen gentiums, Unica Christi Ecclesia ... subsistit in Ecclesia catholica, [the sole Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church]. This statement is dogmatically contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church up until Vatican II.

[Oblationem]

2.

A German Protestant, Pastor Schmidt, an observer invited by Cardinal Bea to take part in the Council, was offended by the implication that the Protestants weren't true Christians and made the written proposal that the word est be replaced by substitit in. He gave the proposal to Fr. Joseph Ratzinger, who was at the time the peritus of Cardinal Frings of Cologne. Fr. Ratzinger in turn gave the proposal to Cardinal Frings

[baldwalrus7]

All this history may be true, but my point still stands that subsistit is 'potentially' orthodox. Look, here's what Jacob Michaels (a Traditionalist) says on the subject:

"Much ink has been spilled over the word "subsists," both by Traditionalist writers and more progressive writers. Here again, a remarkable similarity emerges: whether Traditionalist or progressivist, both sides are ready to state that "subsists" in some way broadens the scope of the spiritual "Church of Christ," [cont'd]

[Oblationem]

I do not agree with Jacob Michael (I dont know who he is) but it doesnt matter as I disagree with anyone who wants to make the word (subsists) a legitimate word when speaking about the Catholic Church. Kentucky Fried Chicken changed its name to KFC because they didnt want people to think about all the fat in their product, and V2 modernists changed the word (is) to (subsists) because of pushing the idea of universal salvation and false ecumenism. Too much fat in V2 for me.

[baldwalrus7]

Quite right: "I disagree with anyone who wants to make the word (subsists) a legitimate word when speaking about the Catholic Church." It should have been clearer.

[Oblationem]

Historically, Protestants and Jews have viewed the Roman Catholic Church as a common enemy. They also share the common bonds of International Freemasonry. Protestants have always objected to the reverence shown to Mary and the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Jews after killing Jesus (may His blood be upon us and our children) have always objected to Catholics praying for their conversion, especially The Good Friday Prayers on Good Friday. Traditionalists still pray those prayers, Novus Ordos dont.

[baldwalrus7]

Have you read the Good Friday prayer for the Jews 'conversion' of the NO? It's ridiculous: "Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant." I mean, what is that? Seriously?

[SA4evor]

The mass has not changed since Chrst instituted this sacrament. There is no "old" mass or "new" mass, just the mass. Vatican II did not change the mass but the liturgy. Their essence remains the same: the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus transubstainiated into the eucharist. This central mystery of the mass takes place regardless of what liturgical books are used (pre vatican II or rivised Pope Paul VI) Both are usages of the same Roman Rite.

[Oblationem]

Not changed?

First of all, the Mass was not changed to offer more Glory to God, but to please non-Catholics. Novus Odro priests ordained after 1967 are ordained to preside over the assembly not to offer-up sacrifice to God. Jesus words were changed from (many) to (all) at the consecrating of the wine. If you think the essence remains the same, why not get properly ordained, learn a little Latin and offer-up to God the sacrifice of the Mass in a non-Protestant /Masonic manner?

[chrischutebox]

the mass and the church has changed..was there Eucharist minsters? were their alter girls? the body of christ givin in the hand? ect i would say the mass and church has changed..

[Oblationem]

My view is that it wont work out; however there may be a signed agreement? If so,it must be signed in blood that an SSPX priest will NEVER say a Novus Ordo mass anywhere ever. Nor will a Novus Ordo mass be permitted in any SSPX chapels by (anyone). There is no practical way that the teachings of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II will accept Vatican II in light of this modern day tradition. One good thing about the Catholic Church is, that documents are out in the open for all to read.

[Moneybags916]

Deo Gratias! Te Deum Laudamus! This is wonderful news.

Marcel Lefebvre, ora pro nobis!

[Oblationem]

Yes, but the Devil is in the details, we shall see how this all pans-out

[Moneybags916]

What is your view of these recent events? I have long followed your videos...

I long to see the SSPX vindicated and Marcel Lefebvre canonized, but I do not want them to compromise on the Faith.

[SA4evor]

Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Im pretty sure that Excommunication was valid, that goes for Vatican II too. Is disobedience to the Pope a good thing? As early as the bible tells when has disobedience pleased God? Lucifers fall because he didnt like the way God was doing things? Adam and eve? JPII like all Popes was appointed by God, we just need to trust God knows best & do what we're told. R we Gods church or our own?

[Oblationem]

Yes, you are absolutely right, Matt: 16:18-19 is exactly why the modernists and the Second Vatican Council will not over-come the Church. The Holy Ghost has promised the successors of Peter, not that they may disclose new doctrine, but that they may with His assistance, preserve and expound faithfully the revelation transmitted through the Apostles the deposit of Faith. The pope can impose nothing beyond what forms part of the deposit of revelation. He is to maintain it, and to preserve it.

[EvodiusTheophile]

There is a development of doctrine however. Vatican II did not attempt to espouse "new doctrine", rather, it proceeded to re-state much doctrine (not all) in relation to a number of contemporary issues. It did so in a confusing and poorly executed manner.

[Oblationem]

Vatican II cannot realistically be interpreted in light of Tradition. It is impossible to separate the verbose and ambiguous texts of Vatican II from the revolutionary spirit that inspired the texts — a non-Catholic spirit of liberalism that would have been condemned by every Pope prior to Vatican II.

(Catholic Family News) just today 1-29-09 came out with an article about this that explains it very well. Go read it please.

[stljumpster86]

One of the biggest questions I have about Vatican II, is why wasn't there a condemnation of Communism? Oh yeah, that's right... the Pope invited some Russian Orthodox to the council. What are your thoughts, Oblationem?

[stljumpster86]

The US District Superior was here at St. Mary's Assumption in St. Mary's, KS and he commented on this great moment: the lifting of the excommunications. This is so very wonderful news! I think this also shows Novus Ordo Catholics that, yes, JP II WAS NOT always infallible in everything he did (of course, we taditional Catholics know the difference between infallibility and impeccability).

[rguerrah]

It is obvious that you don't know the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. According to the Catechism the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation.

The decision to excommunicate a person does not meet this criteria so the infallability of JPII will never be questioned by real Catholics

[Oblationem]

Thank you for sharing. I sure am glad we have you real Catholics to keep us informed.

PS: Nice job the past forty years, I dont know what we would have done without you

St. Athanasius, to whom it was objected, "You have the bishops

against you," answered with Faith: "that proves that they are all against the Church." --St. Athanasius (ca. 296-373)

[rguerrah]

Well at least I know what Papal infallability truly means. The magisterium is a huge part of Catholic doctrine and its true meaning should be known by all good Catholics.

It is sad that someone that does not understand the teachings of the Church will try to use this act of mercy from our current Pope to discredit a great man of God like John Paul II

[Oblationem]

Are you kidding me? This so-called act of mercy was a trap that Bp. Fellay fell into. Just watch, youll see. (Meaning no disrespect to Bp. Fellay). And John Paul II the great, get real.

If any of our Sainted Popes were to come back and take a look at JP2 or B16 what do you think they would have to say?

I don't want to have anything to do with the Vatican. The devil is in the Vatican. --Albino Cardinal Luciani, later Pope John Paul I, on his pilgrimage to Fatima, July 1977

[stljumpster86]

I think you need to read my words carefully from the comment above, and you will see that: 1) I did not state that I personally believe that everything that a Pope does is an infallible action. & 2) I know many Novus Ordo Catholics who (albeit ERRONEOUSLY) do believe that everything/anything JP II did as Pope, was an infallible action. I'm thinking that one of the last times a doctrine was declared INFALLIBLY a dogma of the Church was when Pope Pius XII proclaimed the Assumption in the 1950s.

[stljumpster]

Wow, what arrogance to automatically assume that I "don't know the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church." I did not state what the doctrine of the Church is on infallibility; I did not deny the doctrine of infallibility by what I said. My point was just to say that I know MANY people who INCORRECTLY believe that everything that the Pope does, he does infallibly. In other words, to these Catholics: Infallbility = Impeccability. Of course, this is an ERROR.

[IustitiaPax]

A pope can commit sin and practical error. Frà Girolamo Savonarola O.P. was burnt at the stake and excommunicated by our immoral and sinful Holy Father, Pope Alexander VI, who abused his authority by excommuncating Savonarola. Pope do err and can sin. Popes are only infallible in limited circumstances: only proclaiming Dogmas of Faith and in union with an Ecumenical Council Dogmatically Defining Dogmatic Doctrine. Only in such cases. And otherwise, only general not definite infallibility.

[stljumpster86]

I couldn't have said it better myself. THIS is what I believe rguerrah, just in case you are still wondering. Perhaps rguerrah, it comes as a shock to you to think that a large number of novus ordo Catholics almost engage in a sort of pope-worship ("papalotry"), which, of course, is WRONG. Yes, the Holy Father IS the Holy Father, but he is still a human who CAN make mistakes (& sometimes GRAVE mistakes which has caused some Catholics to lose their faith)

[rguerrah]

Is it arrogance to point out that in your previous comment you misstated the meaning of Papal infallability ? You implied that just because our current Pope lifted the excommunication of those SSPX Bishops, then that means that Pope JPII was not infallible. That is a total fallacy ! The decision to excommunicate them NEVER met the Papal infallability criteria. That is an undeniable fact.

You could have said that in your opinion it was the wrong decision and that would have been fine.

[stljumpster86]

Like I said above: "I think this also shows Novus Ordo Catholics that, yes, JP II WAS NOT always infallible in everything he did." AND "I did not state what the doctrine of the Church is on infallibility [...]" So.... is simply saying "it is an ERROR" to believe that everything that a Pope does is infallible, an error? Why of course not!

[chrischutebox]

thanks for posting this..now noves ordo Catholics can see the so called excommunication was never valid..

[Oblationem]

Yes, not valid never was. Archbishop Lefebvre really believed that he was acting out of necessity. If he was indeed correct in his belief that it was really necessary to consecrate the bishops, then he would not be subject to any penalty whatever (can. 1324.4). If he was in error and even if he was culpably in error in believing that it was necessary to consecrate bishops without a mandate from the Pope, then he still would not incur any automatic (latae sententice) penalty (can. 1324.3).

[kdurston1]

nice to see you posting again

[darkcoven]

Hey my ol' buddy Oblationem, I guess you guys mean business now that the excommunications are lifted. This is a great joy for us even among us traditional Catholics outside of the SSPX. We have considered you our dear brethren. Let's contunue our prayers and also our thanksgiving to God and Our Lady for this momentous occasion of Our same old Catholic Church.

Fr. Cooper, I think I would need to go to the cry room now.