Any grown person believing in gods is clinging to childhood: afraid of death, afraid of the boogieman, afraid of strangers, living a life based upon fantasies and fairy tales, seeing a simplified world, and throwing a fit everytime they don't get exactly their way....
Your imaginary friend doesn't need help look absurd and neither do the mindless drones like you that grovel to kiss its ass. Grow up, you are an embarrassment to the human race.
God is not a "HE" its an ENERGY without gener, and this energy can not be good or bad, its is just the balance of our actions which give us back to us. If WE are good then WE get good, if WE are bad, then WE get back bad. As in Orient they say: Karma or Dharma.
Oh I bet theists don't like this much! The bad parts (that we do not speak of). Hope it gets pushed on them just like they push their shit on everyone else.
@CartesianTheist How do you figure that the only argument for atheism is an emotional one from suffering? Atheism does not need to make an argument for atheism. Atheism makes the assessment of evidence supporting the existence of any given god and finds them lacking there of thus atheism is imposed not by argument but by evidence to support a god(to which there is a great lack hence the atheism).
Funny how people prefer to believe god was to be the most insane fucktard of a judge... rather than no judge at all. Rather they prefer to believe that plagues killing babies and natural disasters were "verdicts" of some mysterious justice, than just to see them as natural phenomenons in a universe that isn't centred on us. They need so badly to say "thank you" to an earthquake... rather than believing the earthquake can't hear them...
@BattleshipTx Umm he killed everyone on the planet. It's not arrogant it's common sense. When you have children one day can you see yourself drowning them for not following your rules? Is that hideous? Disgusting? Well god did just that, so yes god is evil.
@mythicalhell the god is incarnation of mans greedyness. it is incarnation of mans arrogance. the yaweh of the bible is incarnation of mans sefish side. it is incarnations of what those who rotte the bible wanted to be. rulers, who culd do anything they wanted, and still loved. And that is why tyrans used so long the idea that they where chosen divienly. that they had a bulldog that was on their side. gods are control, they are our inner demons.
@rich8642 whot? so when i say that palpatine was tyrant is pointless and without reason? no, of course not. we all judge charecters in books. allso what the book says can tell us lot about those who writed it. and especialy of those who belive it to be true.
We judge characters by implying that those characters are real, and their actions have really happened, therefore, the act of judging actions that are a work of fiction, is hypothetical in a situation where the people involved, fully understand that the actions aren't real.
Only if i really believed that "Palpatine" exists, could i judge his actions in non-hypothetical terms.
I correct myself by saying that Gods actions can be judged, but in a purely hypothetical sense.
Pretty infantile you believe ridiculous and bloodthirsty fairy tales. The bible has been proved false time and again and the character of god it describes is the most disgusting thug in all of literature. The fact that you would even attempt to defend that rampaging prick only demonstrates how much your cult has destroyed your mind.
@FlyingFree333 -- If you don't believe God exists then it is silly to have a trial of him. If you do believe God exists it is arrogant to think you can judge him. There simply isn't any circumstance that makes this video sensible.
@BattleshipTx Regardless of if you believe in god or not, you can compare your actions to that of him or anyone else for that matter and make a moral judgment based on the actions that have taken place. If you could not assess another persons actions in comparison to your own moral compass, then no one can say anything is right or wrong. So yes you can judge anything based on your own moral standings, god or any man for that matter.
@BattleshipTx To think that its okay to make someone else suffer because you are smarter than they are is a preposterous thought. I would assume you would think it was wrong for someone to create a sentient being and then torture it right? I mean if I made a clone and did that it would be bad no? So what is the difference between a god creating people and making them suffer vs a man creating another sentient being and doing the same? Regardless of the means of creation.
1) I didn't make the video and only posted it to illustrated how unbelievably sick your beliefs are.
2) IF such a being existed the fact that it is powerful does NOT automatically make its actions moral.
The fact that both these issues continue to elude you is just further evidence of the extreme damage cult indoctrination does to a mind. There is NO excuse for genocide EVER, get that through your thick fucking skull.
@BattleshipTx Do you have no values that you hold dear? Judge all things by your values. Do not pretend asking a father to kill his son or slaughtering innocents is moral because some man in a costume told you so every Sunday while you were growing up while feeding you grape juice and crackers asking you to pretend to be a cannibal.
@BattleshipTx But if god exists as a character in a book, which he does, then we can most certainly look at that character with a critical eye, which this clip does.
Character analysis is a common subject in high school composition and literacy classes. Have you never taken such a class?
@GermanChocolateCake That scenario isn't what is happening here. A better description would be that the characters in a book are judging a character in the book they have no right to judge. A book describing a drunken mob grabbing the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and deciding they can lynch him because they don't like his last ruling, but even that isn't enough of a description of how wrong it is. A God is a quintrillion times higher than a Chief Justice in any context.
@BattleshipTx Yes, but you, being religious, are presuming that the characters of your book are real. I being an atheist, do not. Humans are real, that much is demonstrable. Humans wrote a lot of books. That too is demonstrable. Not all of the characters in those books are or were real, that much is demonstrable as well. You are telling me that the god of one of those books (actually a collection of books cobbled together) is real. I've not seen it demonstrated that you are correct.
@GermanChocolateCake--- It is irrelevant whether the characters are real. If a fictional son improperly and insolently disrespects a fictional parent I can criticize that character for what it did. Doesn't matter if real or fictional. That act portrayed is what I criticize. The characters in the book have no right to judge the superior character. This is true whether it is all fictional or all real.
@BattleshipTx Therein lies a difference between you and I. Fictional or otherwise I think everyone has the right to question anyone who tries to exert superiority over them. Anything less is being a willing slave and puppet to the will and desires of others. That is not freedom, and is not welcome in my world. While a child might love and respect its parent as it is healthy to, that does not put the parent above reproach. No one should ever bow in unquestioning subservience to anything.
That's certainly true for somebody you can throw into a lot with everyone or anyone. If God is what he is said to be, someone who thought or spoke all of our existence into being, you really can't just put him in line with all the other Joe's in an "everyone" style lineup. God is fundamentally different than just another guy. He wouldn't be just anyone. Like someone in one of your dreams trying to put you on trial.
@BattleshipTx Sure we could. If he has conscious thought, and can communicate, he can can answer questions regardless of how powerful or "special" he is. Just because he's different and possibly unique doesn't mean he's exempt. No one is "just anyone". All thinking beings can be called into question for their actions. That is the very essence of responsibility. And if your god is responsible for so much, he has a great deal he can be questioned about.
"And if your god is responsible for so much, he has a great deal he can be questioned about."
On whose authority? Getting elected PTA chairman doesn't let me override the Secretary of Education's decisions. We are just so far from having the right to question our own maker, the relationship is a gazillion times even farther apart in authority. It isn't just that he is unique or different. If what is claimed is true, he is reality.
@BattleshipTx Whose authority do we need to exercise our free will and question whomever we wish about whatever we wish (regardless whether or not an answer is forthcoming)? It's called free will and freedom of speech. Surely you're familiar with those concepts.
Even if one, for the sake of argument, were to assume your god is real, how would it be beyond our power to question him using the free will he presumably gave us? After all, all questions are answered in heaven aren't they?
@BattleshipTx You see, I know where you are actually coming from. You believe god is real, and that to question him is to question the ultimate authority, and that we don't have the right to (that some way it is blasphemous or impertinent to question god). What you fail to see is that you are arguing for a "might makes right" position, something most rational people recognize as a dangerous paradigm. Even in your belief system, questioning god is simply exercising the free will he gave us.
If this God were just a incredibly powerful force that came along, then your idea of might makes right would be correct. My reasoning is not how powerful he is, but how powerful our obligation to him is. You have heard urban legend stories of car wrecks. Where a rescuer sees an accident ahead, stops and pulls an injured unconscious person to safety from their car right before it explodes. Then is sued by the person because their Walmart sunglasses were lost in the rescue. That's like this video.
@BattleshipTx That's a terrible analogy. You're just assuming that we've all been "saved" from something by God, and so we owe him something.
But according to your theology, God created everything he's supposedly saving us from. He created us to be susceptible to evil, and didn't give us the power to overcome it alone, and then swooped down to rescue us from it. So he threw all of us non-swimmers in the deep end of the pool and said: "If you obey me, I'll fish you out." And you're OK with that?
@instereovideos-- Not just saved but owe our entire existence to him. I realize you don't believe he exists. But if you are positing that a God like that in the Torah exists, then we would owe him our entire existence. The complaints you give all relate to free will. If he made it impossible to choose evil over good, we don't have it.
That's true... "if you are positing that a God like that in the Torah exists, then we would owe him our entire existence."
Free will is an illusion. I'd love to go into that, but with logic like yours I might as well try and explain it to my fish. Before we can get into the "free will" required to choose "God," we would first have to know that he exists, and of course there is no evidence of that. It's meaningless to "choose" to believe something. Beliefs aren't a choice. You're confused.
If it is, then it is pointless to talk about it. It would also be pointless to talk about logic or confusion, neither could exist if we have no free will and every decision or thought is just chemicals reacting in our brains and we have no control over them.
That's the worst interpretation of this problem I've heard in months. There's a 60s children's cartoon I think you might really benefit from watching, called "The Point." You're like one of the ridiculous guys in the pointy hats walking around trying to find the "point" of everything.
Just because behavior has an underlying cause does not mean it's "pointless." Things can be meaningful to us even if they don't have an "external meaning."
@instereovideos You are the one that thinks you and I have no free will to do anything. If so, why are you griping about what I type? I don't have any free will in your view. I have to type what I do according to your logic.
@BattleshipTx Did you really just say that again? You have no interest in figuring out what other people are trying to tell you, do ya?
Yes, you have to type what you type.. first of all, that's called a tautology. Whatever you type is definitely what you typed... you're brilliant...
You're brain is reacting to the information it knows, combined with the environmental changes that are dictating the thoughts that come to your mind (continued above).
After I have typed that it would be true. But before, I have an infinite number of things I can type, whatever I choose to type. I do have a choice. And if you don't think I have a choice, again, why bug me about it?
(cont. from below) Here's a thought exercise. Think of a well-known fiction story. Did you do it? Guess what? You didn't choose which one to think of. It popped in there on its own. That's because you can't actually choose your thoughts. They come one after the other, each in response to the last thought you had, plus new sensory information. Your thoughts guide your decisions, and therefore, your actions.
I know, all this makes your little head hurt. Just think on it a while.
@instereovideos "Your thoughts guide your decisions, and therefore, your actions."
I agree with that, but those thoughts produce choices and I can make whatever choices I want. If I have an apple and orange in front of me, I can choose to eat either one, or both, or neither. It is my choice. To pretend we don't have free will to chose any of those courses is wrong. After the fact, you have done what you have done, sure. But before? I can make any of those choices, depending on my will.
Wrong. Whether or not you eat the apple, or the orange, or neither, is determined by the information in your head, mixed with your brain's automatic responses to the situation. It's a series of bits and pieces that flash through your head and make the decision for you. Hunger, past experiences, even the thoughts about me daring you to try and exercise your "free will" are shaping your response, you just don't realize it. Sorry, but you've only been conditioned to think you have free will : )
Certainly we use our brains in making decisions, but our brain isn't external to us. It is a part of who we are. It can't make a decision for us, it is us. Nothing about picking the apple/orange is inevitable. It is a conscious choice. We use our brains in making the decision, that's all free will means. Eddie Haskell might try your logic out on Beaver Cleaver when he is giving him noogies, saying he has no choice it is just the chemicals in his brain doing it, I doubt that satisfies the Beave.
@BattleshipTx Sorry boss, ya got it wrong. But I hope if comforts you to think you have free will.
Back to the point that was being made before we hit a wall where you couldn't understand something fundamental: Belief is not a choice. Your mind is either convinced or not convinced of a claim, and this isn't voluntary. You can't wake up and decide to be Christian or Atheist, or Muslim, etc. You can't "choose God" through free will... you are simply either convinced or not convinced he exists.
"All thinking beings can be called into question for their actions."
Anyone by anyone? Great, I demand you send me all of your bank account information, passwords, credit card info, etc. Are you gonna do it? I bet not. You will say that I don't have any authority to demand that of you. You don't give up your tax returns to retired meat inspectors, you want to see an IRS credential or something from someone in authority. Any human will eventually be subject to some human authority. Not God.
@BattleshipTx Well, I did specifically say "for their actions". And yeah, you can question me on those things all you want. I'm under no obligation to answer, besides which there is no specific moral implication in my financial details. More to the point is to be called into question regarding the morality of one's actions, and stating god is above such questioning is making the same unfounded assertion as saying god exists to begin with.
@GermanChocolateCake--Make it about Ra then. The logic is the same. If Ra doesn't exist, it would be pointless to have a trial of him. If we posit for the sake of the story that Ra really does exist, and some of the slaves or workmen building the pyramids decided to have some sort a trial of him, how would that work out? I expect not very good for the pyramid builders if he is all powerful and so easy to anger. Your example proves my point.
@BattleshipTx Not really. My example serves my point. If there were a god, be it Ra or yours, that being would be subject to questioning for its actions (whether or not doing so would be wise to). However, you hit upon the salient point. If Ra or your god doesn't exist, then a trial of him is ultimately pointless outside of a purely philosophical exercise. Since I don't believe any god exists, the questions I would ask of him are purely in the realm of speculation.
@BattleshipTx You sound so sure that there is a personal god(in reality), so I kindly ask, what empirical evidence do you have to support this extraordinary claim. The video clip is "fiction" but you interpret it as nonfiction, interesting.
@BattleshipTx answer me this, if you changed out the name of your god with the name of any other god and retold the stories of the bible, what would be your verdict.
If it was a monotheistic God that was said to create the whole universe and life itself? The logic would be the same. If I didn't believe in its existence, holding a trial for it would be stupid. If I did believe it existed, I would be arrogant to expect that I could judge such an entity.
@BattleshipTx Thank you fore retyping that same stupid "answer", let me ask you again, swap out your god with Odin(a god you more then likely don't believe in) and have him be the same murdering evil asshole your god is said to be, how would you judge him? and how is it arrogant to expect that god should meet the same standards that we expect form mere humans?
Again, if I didn't believe in Odin, I would think it stupid to have a trial of him. Since I don't believe in Odin, I would feel exactly the same way I do now if this video was about a trial of Odin. That it is stupid and illogical, given it is made by people who don't believe in any God. If Odin doesn't exist, how can you have a trial of him?
@BattleshipTx It is at this point I need to ask if you are aware that this clip is from a movie? so a fictional trail for a fictional character is seemingly appropriate, don't you think? and if you notes that thees wear fictional Jews holding this fictional trail, how in this fictional story fictionally believe in god, so in the context of this fictional story it more than appropriate. Your criticism in this regard is like saying playing Ace Attorney is silly since Phoenix Wright isn't real.
"fictional trial for a fictional character is ...?"
Not if it is internally inconsistent. If their fictional God as is presented as real, they would not have the right to judge him. If he isn't, then why would they have a trial. But quit pretending this is all fictional. Judaism is a real group of people and the God they worship is real to religious Jews. This isn't a completely fictional story. If Muslims make up stories about "fictional" Jews baking bread with babies blood, is that okay?
@BattleshipTx "they would not have the right to judge him." says how?
"But quit pretendingl" I'm not the one playing make-believe hear, is Spider-Man not fiction because he lives in New York, and some of his adventures finds him participating in events inspired by real world events? as for Jewish baby bread there you hare drawing a false equivalence, one is a story presented as true meant to spread hatred and the other toled withe the understanding that it is fiction for entertainment
@TheHolySTD "one is a story presented as true meant to spread hatred"
Seriously? You want to take the position that this video have no anti-religious, no anti-"belief in God" motives at all? Baloney. You seriously claim it is just entertainment? Nothing more. You aren't being honest if you claim that.
@BattleshipTx Ok I'll rephrase my question, do you believe that the stories in the bible are true? and would thees acts committed or ordered by your god be evil if committed or ordered by a human?
@HSTD The maker of humanity has rights that another human doesn't. He is the one that decided how long we will live. He decided you and I will have two ears, not three. What food would nourish. I don't have the right to decide that for another human being. Setting humanity equal to God is the essence of what I am complaining about with regard to this video. So yes, there are definitely acts that God takes in the Bible that would be wrong for a human to decide for another human on their own.
An example of this is Jonah. God picked him to go to Ninevah. That was a place Jonah really, really didn't want to go. If another human told Jonah he had to go to Ninevah, and threatened him with dire consequences if he didn't, that would be wrong. It would be extortion or blackmail. But God chose him and he has the right to do so. Jonah owed God for his whole, life body & existence. God has the right to command Jonah to go somewhere Jonah didn't want to go and to preach what God told him to.
@BattleshipTx "The maker of humanity has rights that another human doesn't" says who? that he supposedly has the ability to destroy any thing he wants dos not give him the right to.
"Setting humanity equal to God" who is doing that, I can just as easily judge the work of some one that is more skilled them I am and determine if it any good or not, and still hold no illusion that I am somehow more or equally skilled. If any thing we are setting god equal to humans.
Says God when he commands people to do things in the Bible based on his authority.
"I can just as easily judge the work of some one that is more skilled them I am"
Can you really judge the work of a quantum physicist or advanced mathematician? Whether his new theory or mathematical principle is valid or not? You are an expert in every field? But even these situations are still other humans. A God would be a quadrillion google-plex times more impossible for you to judge.
@BattleshipTx If you think he decides how long we live then you should not go to the doctor or get vaccinated or use any other scientific luxuries that have DOUBLED life expectancy in the last 200 years. If you still think he decides how long we live then don't go to the hospital when having a heart attack or cancer. If you do, then your going against gods will. If you still think that this is true, then why did hitler live so long? Hitler was Roman Catholic BTW
@BattleshipTx It seems like if god cared at all he would have ended hitler's life before he attempted genocide. Oh, wait. God is OK with genocide, I forgot. You said yourself that he decides how long we live. Why didn't he end hitler's life sooner to save millions of people, or the bombers at Pearl Harbor, or whoever planned 911, etc? Why does he decide to give children under 10 cancer when these bad people run free and healthy? 1. god is an asshole. 2. There is no god. Which makes more sense?
@mitchyd89 "Why didn't he end hitler's life sooner to save millions of people, or the bombers at Pearl Harbor, or whoever planned 911"
Because his purpose isn't to maximize the amount of time we spend on earth? Nor to make it the most pleasant place we can imagine. He has that place, called heaven and invites us to join him there.
@BattleshipTx I'm sure the people that actually get affected by bad things are completely in agreement with you. They just pray for things to get better for no reason and they are happy that god didn't do anything to help save innocent people. Why even bother asking god if his purpose isn't to help minimize suffering? Why call him "god" if he is unable to help? He's an asshole if he is unwilling to help. Why does anyone wait to join him in heaven if he won't help with the suffering here?
"Why even bother asking god if his purpose isn't to help minimize suffering?"
So, in your view, minimizing suffering is the ONLY motivation that God might have in answering a prayer with a form of relief? Not teaching? Not displaying his power. Not increasing your faith? Who said he is unable to help? He just isn't a bellhop that you signal when you want him to do something. Jumping whenever you ring at your beck and call. God will end our suffering for all time unless you reject Jesus' help.
"the people that actually get affected by bad things ..."
Just who are the people who aren't in that group? Do you think there are some who don't ever have a terminal illness or accident? Whether it happens young or old, we all experience that eventuality. If old, it is probably pneumonia or congestive heart failure, if a bit younger maybe cancer, and younger still some other disease or childhood illness. But we all are here to experience life and death, and those things are a part of it..
@BattleshipTx You seem like an intelligent theist (a rarity), so could you please answer me this:
1. Do you think that God, as depicted in the Bible, has *always* been moral and just, as you define these terms? I'm asking about your sense of morality, not His, and never mind for a moment which is superior.
2. Do you think that God is capable of lying to or deceiving some people? Do you think that he has been doing so?
"Do you think that God, as depicted in the Bible, has *always* been moral and just, as you define these terms"
If asking would I have made the same decisions, not likely. That guy reaches his hand out to steady the ark of the covenant, God strikes him dead. I probably let stuff like that slide, maybe give a warning. But that story just illustrates the futility of me trying to judge God. He may know how critical keeping the ark inviolate through the centuries is to the tribe of Israel. I don't.
"Do you think that God is capable of lying to or deceiving some people?"
Capable? I love my wife, would never beat her, it isn't my nature. But I have arms and legs and muscles, so does that make me capable? In once sense. But I am incapable in another as it isn't my nature. Same for God, if he can speak then he can lie. But lying isn't in his nature, thus you could say he is incapable in that sense.
"Do you think that he has been doing so?" No. Lying about what? When have you talked to him?
@BattleshipTx I haven't talked to God, to the best of my knowledge. I did study His various supposed creations: namely, the Bible and the Universe.
And again to the best of my understanding, these contradict. The Universe seems to have been created billions of years ago, as does the Earth. Not ~6000 years ago, and not in the way explained in Genesis. Humans seem to have evolved, not created out of dirt and ribs.
So God is deceiving either scientists or Bible readers. Wouldn't you agree?
You are under the impression there are dates in the Bible? Do you see the number 6000 somewhere in it? I believe the universe is billions of years old & see nothing that says otherwise in the Bible. Certainly no mention of 6000 years. See you say you studied the Bible, but that date doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from a guy named Bishop Ussher who lived in the 1600s. I won't mention some of the silly things that some scientists believed in 1600, well biblical scholars weren't much better.
"I did study His various supposed creations: ... the Bible"
Who do you think wrote Genesis? Isn't it purported to have been written by Moses? So whatever complaints that it is deceptive would be on him? The only direct writings that I know of God's were when he wrote "mene, mene tekel parsin" on Nebuchadnezzar's wall. That and the tablets with the Ten Commandments that Moses smashed. Why do you attribute deceptiveness to Moses, couldn't he just be wrong? You jumped to accusations very quickly.
@BattleshipTx If you ask for my understanding, it's that the Bible was written (and rewritten) by people, that Moses is a legend, that Belshazzar's wall is a fable, and that the motivation behind it all was a mixture of controlling the masses and pre-scientific naivete.
But I'm really confused about your point of view. If you agree that the Bible was written by people, why do you believe that God exists? Are you relying on some logical argumentation? Personal experience? Something else?
@roydfox "If you agree that the Bible was written by people, why do you believe that God exists?"
Just because people wrote it, doesn't mean it doesn't have elements of truth in it. Particularly people inspired to write it by the God they are, in part, talking about. Maybe I am overly sensitive to knee jerk accusations of lying when someone uncovers a mistake someone else has said in error. We are seeing that in politics today frequently, and that's sad. But that is a different subject.
From my viewpoint, human writers just make it better. I enjoy having several different gospels all telling the same story from different viewpoints & to different audiences. Matthew writing to serious Jews (assuming the reader knows intricate Jewish rituals) , Mark writing to non-Jews who have never been to Palestine (explaining Aramaic words everyone there would know) & Luke writing to young Christians (he says so). The OT has words of warning by prophets, wisdom by wise men, songs, history ...
@BattleshipTx I agree. I attributed falsehood to deceit, not mistake, only because I thought we were assuming a divine source. God wouldn't make mistakes.
So basically what you're saying is that what (some of) the authors of the Bible wrote seems so inspired, that God must have existed to inspire them. Is that right?
To me, Occam's Razor demands a much simpler explanation: there simply were some very smart people in history. Don't you agree that this is a better and simpler explanation? Why not?
@roydfox The Bible doesn't impress me because it is smartly written. It isn't the author's intelligence that amazes me. It is what is written there, what happened, not some intelligence test. It fits better with the reality I see around me than any other answer for what I see. Occam's Razor demands that it be true. It is the simplest answer for why we are here and what caused us to be here. So far other answers I have seen are just way too complex.
@BattleshipTx Just note that we need to choose the simplest answer among the ones that actually fit reality.
This is how science works: if you are able to demonstrate a part of the Bible which fits reality better than current science, then scientists will have to reject their current understanding and accept that part of the Bible as the new best explanation.
So you may be on to something important. Please share! What reality is explained better by what part of the Bible, than by science?
The simplest answer is an intelligence. You have to try to describe extraordinary circumstances to the causation of the universe and to the causation of the first life form without intelligent intervention. Intelligent intervention is the simplest answer. The Bible is mostly a book of the history of Israel and biographies of a man named Jesus, not sure why you are looking there for science answers..
" will have to reject their current understanding"
Science for decades insisted on the steady state theory of the universe. Atheists made fun of Genesis for describing a beginning. Eventually Georges Lemaitre proposed the theory Known as the Big Bang, & it was proven correct by Hubble. Einstein admitted he was reluctant to accept it at first because it was so close to Christian dogma, but the evidence was soon indisputable. So science will eventually catch up to the Bible. The Bible just gives us additional info about an intelligent creator.
@BattleshipTx If Intelligent Design seems simpler than Abiogenesis, it's because you're comparing apples and oranges. What's ID's explanation for *how* life began? If I had a planet factory, would life evolve on my planets? Abiogenesis: yes, quite often. ID: *shrug*.
What *would* be extraordinary, fantastic even, is an intelligent designer.
So ID has a fantastic premise, doesn't explain anything, and contradicts the only theory which does explain the beginning of Life. Why take it seriously?
@roydfox " If I had a planet factory, would life evolve on my planets? "
You are mixing concepts. Evolution is how life changes over time through natural selection. It has nothing to do with abiogenesis.
"contradicts the only theory which does explain the beginning of Life"
What theory are you talking about? I am unaware of any scientific theory that explains the beginning of life. There is no accepted theory, or even plausible theory, for how abiogenesis occurred on Earth.
I meant that colloquially - would life evolve from non-life in a lab.
"There is no accepted theory, or even plausible theory, for how abiogenesis occurred on Earth."
There are a number of plausible theories, such as the RNA world and the Iron-Sulfur world. They are consistent with the large body of facts which *are* known, and unlike ID explain a lot more. There are gaps, sure, and sub-theories to bridge them, but nothing as fantastic as Theology.
Life evolves into other life forms through natural selection. Non-life doesn't evolve into life. Ever. Granite boulders don't evolve into jet airliners. Things don't naturally change into other things on their own like life can. Projects in Labs are the result of intelligent planning not evolution. Life has mechanisms inside it to let it change. Non-life doesn't. Carbon and other atoms don't hop up and evolve into life. There is no mechanism for it.
The Iron-Sulfer world just shows how difficult it would be for life on earth to start. They have to find deep undersea vents, etc, because the earth is so hostile to their theories. That is why atheists like Crick are abandoning the idea life started on Earth and pursuing the "diaspora" ideas that it started somewhere else more hospitable and came here as seeds or spores. The RNA world doesn't solve 99% of the problems, e.g chirality, hostile conditions, etc.
And get rid of the idea of "solving all the problems". We can't know everything. We can't be certain of anything. If you're looking for absolute answers, you'll find them, but they will be wrong because they're not being challenged.
If you tell me that you have the answers that we mortals may take 1000 years to reach, then you're arrogant, delusional, and potentially dangerous. Please come to your senses.
Looks practically impossible to me. Also now you've gone from looking from the simplest Occam's razor answer to "not impossible". The intelligent creator is clearly not impossible and looks like a very simple answer. Why did you abandon the simple answer for these practically impossible ones?
@BattleshipTx How improbable does something have to be to be "practically impossible"? One in a Billion? One in a Quintillion? We just can't grasp these numbers. If Abiogenesis and Evolution happen every second with probability one in a Quintillion, it would be surprising if it *didn't* happen on one of a Billion planets within 1000 years. And it had a Million times that long!
The creator only looks possible and simple because you keep refusing to say anything factual about Him. Not an answer!
What do you want to know? God described himself as:
Exodus 3:14- "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
That is who he is, the ultimate reality. Pretty sophisticated concept for Bronze Age writers. It is just a much simpler, Occam's Razor friendly answer, compared to your 1 in a Quintillion idea. And your idea only solves life, not the creation of the universe. Mine does both.
Max Planck said:“As a man who devoted his life to the most clear-headed science to the study of matter, I can tell you as the result of my research about atoms, this much—there is no matter as such. All matter originates & exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration & holds this most minute solar system of the atom together--We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious & intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” Great answer
@BattleshipTx So let's take a step back, please, madam or sir:
When I ask how life was created, and you say "God did it", you haven't answered my question. Just like "Toyota did it" is not an answer to "how was this car built?". Maybe science doesn't currently have the best answer, but theology has no answer.
So when you say that intelligent intervention is the simplest answer, what is the question?
@roy "So when you say that intelligent intervention is the simplest answer, what is the question?"
I meant for a question like: "what caused our universe to be here?"
"Maybe science doesn't currently have the best answer, but theology has no answer."
Science is working towards the same answer that theology gives. The role of observation in physics for example. Science used to believe this universe had always been here, even though Genesis claimed a beginning. Now with The Big Bang, it agrees.
@BattleshipTx "what caused our universe to be here?"
If your answer is "a Creator", then it's far from complete. Describe the Creator. In detail please, with reasoning and evidence. Thanks.
"Science is working towards the same answer that theology gives."
Nice prophecy, we can't prove or disprove it, but current science is pretty sure theology is wrong in many ways. A reversed Pascal wager: if science is wrong, it will correct itself at some point. If theology is wrong, it will be wrong forever.
@BattleshipTx Thank you for your bravely honest answers.
Yes, God may have an Ultimate Reason for His actions (and inactions) which you and I fail to see. Or He may not; maybe He is irrational, or whimsical, or just evil (or for inactions - indifferent, or powerless). You seem to think that that's not the case, you seem to think that He is good, purposeful, all-powerful, and that His morality is superior (in an absolute sense).
So I have to ask, why do you think that? If indeed you do.
In part because I see more reason for those actions than you acknowledge. If we really are eternal (sounds really long, doesn't it? )creatures, spending a half dozen decades on Earth, seeing what it is like to not be protected 24/7 by God, not just seeing but experiencing the yuckiness of evil, that makes some sense to me. If we are really going to make our own choices about who we are, good guy or bad guy, wouldn't we have to have freedom to choose?
@BattleshipTx Saying you can't judge such an entity is exactly the problem. Faith has blinded you from the reality of god's actions. You are most likely scared to question his actions because you have been scared of hell since someone told you at a young age. I know because I felt the same way until I realized it is all a story made up by PEOPLE thousands of years ago to control other people. Hell is not real so start questioning everything without worry, even the existence of god.
@BattleshipTx In the bible, God killed approximately 2,000,000 people, not counting the global flood, the tenth plague of Egypt, or the wars waged in his name.
Satan, on the other hand, only killed 10.
How can you justify the actions of a being that is more bloodthirsty than the embodiment of evil? And don't say, "Because he is God and thus above us," because that is not a justification, it's an excuse.
@61btod "In the bible, God killed approximately ..."
God has killed somewhere north of about 110 billion people, basically everyone who has ever lived. He made us. He set limits on how long we could live. You aren't going to live to 200 years old. God decided that lifespan. Humans live on Earth at his fiat and discretion. For just a short while in the scheme of things given we are eternal beings. Why would Satan want to kill anyone? He wants to tempt you to believe the things that you do.
@BattleshipTx I wasn't talking about every peson who simply died, I was only talking about the people who were killed directly by God and recorded in the bible.
So by your logic, temptation is worse than wholesale slaughter. Oh yes, that makes perfect sense. And Satan didn't tempt me into believing the things I do, because I don't believe he exists, just like God. I came to my own conclusions by looking at all the facts, not just the ones I wanted and then sticking my head in the sand.
" wasn't talking about every peson who simply died"
But you should have been. When someone reaches 90 & dies of old age, who decided you get that long and no longer? God. He is responsible for all deaths. He created us and set the limits that you call "simply" dying. Nothing is simple about it, God willed that those people would die. You are way underestimating the deaths God is DIRECTLY responsible for.
"... temptation is worse than wholesale slaughter."
@BattleshipTx So what you're saying is that despite having free will, God is still in complete control of our lives? Then what the fuck is the point of having free will?!
You get to choose who you want to be. Are you aligning with good or evil? There are some pretty big decisions there, but God isn't giving you an unlimited life span to make them. That's his choice. I have free will, but somehow naming myself Emperor of the World doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean I don't have free will. You don't control everything in your life, e.g. who your parents are, whether a random stranger shoots you in a drive-by. But you do have choices & will be judged on them.
@BattleshipTx But then how does one have free will if everything is already predetermined by God? If I get killed in a drive-by tomorow, was it by the gangsters' free will or did God take over and forced them to do so? Where do you draw the line between free will and God's will?
Free will is just the freedom to make choices. It doesn't mean you can stop an enemy from invading your country, a bus from running over you or whatever. Gangsters have free will too. god is smart enough to have multiple ways to accomplish what he wants. If the gangsters decide to take a vacation day, then there are a trillion other ways God can use to end your life. Always the nice brain aneurysm or heart attack if it needs to be done quickly, or just mutate a cancer cell if there is more time.
I wouldn't particularly designate it as good or bad, it seems to be a part of his plan for us on Earth. If you get to go to heaven, that would make it a good thing. But even without the concept of heaven, being unable to die sounds awful. Hit by a bus and limbs scattered everywhere, but impossible to die? Crushed in an airplane crash, but can't die? Death is a comfort in some cases. If you really believe in an immortal soul, death may look different than to a nonbeliever.
@BattleshipTx You seem to missunderstand. I have nothing against death, it is a part of life, there is no way around it. It's the idea of death being the conscious decision of someone else that I have a problem with. And the fact that you obviously don't is what I have trouble understanding.
@61btod-- Do you have the same problem with the idea that your creation was the conscious decision of someone else? Because if there is a God, he simply decided we would exist. We wouldn't have otherwise. That puts him in a whole different position than just some other human making that kind of decision.
@BattleshipTx But does being the creator mean he has the right to dephile his creation? I am the result of a coupling between my parents, does that give them the right to kill me?
In creating humanity, God decided everything about us, how tall we would be, how many eyes we would have, how smart we would or wouldn't be, to have emotions or not, to respond to humor or not recognize it, and how long we would live. Things that no one else but a Creator could do. Parents don't have that control. All they do is let you into this world, they don't control who you are or what you will be. They don't create you in the same sense. They just open the package, not invent the product.
@BattleshipTx Open the package? If anything, parents (mothers especially) are the factory. They're the ones who take the time and effort to make another human being, and to raise it once it's born. And you want to place all that credit on God? A being who doesn't seem to realise that we have a useless apendix and detrimental wisdom teeth among countless other flaws? God is not only cruel, vengefull and petty, but he is also incompetent.
@61btod-- God created the very atoms we are made of. It takes like 5 minutes for parents to have sex. All they are doing is using the tools God so carefully gave them. All the genetic code, all of the stuff that will make you who you are come from him. God decides how tall you will grow, what eye color you will have, what sex you will be, and in particular, genetics that will decide how long your maximum life span will be. A quickie isn't comparable to that.
@BattleshipTx Ah, but God's not the one who has to carry the baby for nine months, supplying it with nutrients and oxygenated blood. "Carefully given tools"? So God "carefully" made it so that the mother has to experience utter agony during childbirth? Apparently, he is also a mysogenyst. Not surprising, really...
@61btod -- Not really her nutrients or oxygenated blood. All that created by God. God even conceived the idea of nutrients and of having blood carry oxygen..
"So God "carefully" made it so that the mother has to experience utter agony during childbirth"
Yes. You must have missed the punishment he handed out for letting the serpent deceive her. Genesis 3:16: "To the woman he said: “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." "
This is great that they figured out that their Imaginary friend is mean, cruel, unjust and a general dick, but they should be discussing whether or not they should be having an imaginary friend in the first place. It is all conjecture even if it is the answer you would like to hear.
Any grown person believing in gods is clinging to childhood: afraid of death, afraid of the boogieman, afraid of strangers, living a life based upon fantasies and fairy tales, seeing a simplified world, and throwing a fit everytime they don't get exactly their way....
pastafarianprophet 2 hours ago in playlist christian
I have nothing against god, it is his fan club that I can't stand.
8271652 1 week ago
@8271652
"I have nothing against god" - Read the bible, you'll change your tune.
God:"Dash their infants to pieces before their eyes; loot their houses & rape their wives." Isaiah 13:16
FlyingFree333 1 week ago
a video cunningly constructed to make the living God look absurd based on biblical misconceptions lol i laugh at this little video lol hahahahahha
MrXMerchant 3 weeks ago
@MrXMerchant
Your imaginary friend doesn't need help look absurd and neither do the mindless drones like you that grovel to kiss its ass. Grow up, you are an embarrassment to the human race.
FlyingFree333 3 weeks ago 2
God is not a "HE" its an ENERGY without gener, and this energy can not be good or bad, its is just the balance of our actions which give us back to us. If WE are good then WE get good, if WE are bad, then WE get back bad. As in Orient they say: Karma or Dharma.
amoradance 8 months ago
@amoradance - That sounds real good and all, but do you have any of that little thing we in the modern world call "evidence?"
pastafarianprophet 2 hours ago in playlist christian
Potent clip.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
Oh I bet theists don't like this much! The bad parts (that we do not speak of). Hope it gets pushed on them just like they push their shit on everyone else.
xIntoThePitx 10 months ago
@CartesianTheist How do you figure that the only argument for atheism is an emotional one from suffering? Atheism does not need to make an argument for atheism. Atheism makes the assessment of evidence supporting the existence of any given god and finds them lacking there of thus atheism is imposed not by argument but by evidence to support a god(to which there is a great lack hence the atheism).
CtheWolfe 11 months ago
Brilliant, thought provoking, and played out better than I could ever ask for.
ThePowerfulPanda 11 months ago
What a brilliant indictment of religion, presented in it's OWN WORDS!!!
157626 11 months ago
The script blew my mind away... this on TV??? whoa, Britain has gone lightyears ahead of many "civilized" countries...
eat666shit 11 months ago 2
... but what's even worse, how people use all that shit to commit genocides and feeling that it was the "god" thing to do.
It's fine when that legend gives comfort to the suffering... but to the butchers? To the haters?
neoZykl 11 months ago
Funny how people prefer to believe god was to be the most insane fucktard of a judge... rather than no judge at all. Rather they prefer to believe that plagues killing babies and natural disasters were "verdicts" of some mysterious justice, than just to see them as natural phenomenons in a universe that isn't centred on us. They need so badly to say "thank you" to an earthquake... rather than believing the earthquake can't hear them...
neoZykl 11 months ago
I just can't stop playing this
Torcika 11 months ago
Brilliant!
ozbandit 11 months ago
Wow... this should be considered a youtube gem.
AR333 11 months ago
Pretty arrogant to think you can judge God.
BattleshipTx 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx Surely a law maker can be judged against the laws they make? So why cannot a god be judged by the laws they make?
bertamon 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx Umm he killed everyone on the planet. It's not arrogant it's common sense. When you have children one day can you see yourself drowning them for not following your rules? Is that hideous? Disgusting? Well god did just that, so yes god is evil.
MzBUZZKILINGTON 11 months ago
@MzBUZZKILINGTON No, god is not evil, god is MYTH, it's man that's evil and man knows it.
mythicalhell 11 months ago
@mythicalhell the god is incarnation of mans greedyness. it is incarnation of mans arrogance. the yaweh of the bible is incarnation of mans sefish side. it is incarnations of what those who rotte the bible wanted to be. rulers, who culd do anything they wanted, and still loved. And that is why tyrans used so long the idea that they where chosen divienly. that they had a bulldog that was on their side. gods are control, they are our inner demons.
gooddarkjedi 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx maybe you didn't notice those were starving jewish men awaiting death?
TheILLUSIONIST93 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx If we can't judge his/her/their bad actions then you can't judge his/her/their good action. Now where does that leave you?
stramster1 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx
Of course you can't judge the actions of god.
You also can't judge the actions of the Easter bunny.
Mainly because god and the Easter bunny are both works of fiction, and so are their actions.
rich8642 11 months ago 3
@rich8642 So you agreeing that a trial of God is nonsensical?
BattleshipTx 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx
The characters portrayed in "God on Trial" believe in god, therefore, those people judging the actions of God, is completely reasonable.
Whereas, if those people knew that god didn't exist, then of course, judging gods actions, would have no point or reason.
A trial of god makes complete sense in a situation where those involved, believe in a god.
rich8642 11 months ago
@rich8642 whot? so when i say that palpatine was tyrant is pointless and without reason? no, of course not. we all judge charecters in books. allso what the book says can tell us lot about those who writed it. and especialy of those who belive it to be true.
gooddarkjedi 11 months ago
@gooddarkjedi
We judge characters by implying that those characters are real, and their actions have really happened, therefore, the act of judging actions that are a work of fiction, is hypothetical in a situation where the people involved, fully understand that the actions aren't real.
Only if i really believed that "Palpatine" exists, could i judge his actions in non-hypothetical terms.
I correct myself by saying that Gods actions can be judged, but in a purely hypothetical sense.
rich8642 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx
Pretty infantile you believe ridiculous and bloodthirsty fairy tales. The bible has been proved false time and again and the character of god it describes is the most disgusting thug in all of literature. The fact that you would even attempt to defend that rampaging prick only demonstrates how much your cult has destroyed your mind.
FlyingFree333 11 months ago 20
@FlyingFree333 -- If you don't believe God exists then it is silly to have a trial of him. If you do believe God exists it is arrogant to think you can judge him. There simply isn't any circumstance that makes this video sensible.
BattleshipTx 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx Regardless of if you believe in god or not, you can compare your actions to that of him or anyone else for that matter and make a moral judgment based on the actions that have taken place. If you could not assess another persons actions in comparison to your own moral compass, then no one can say anything is right or wrong. So yes you can judge anything based on your own moral standings, god or any man for that matter.
CtheWolfe 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx To think that its okay to make someone else suffer because you are smarter than they are is a preposterous thought. I would assume you would think it was wrong for someone to create a sentient being and then torture it right? I mean if I made a clone and did that it would be bad no? So what is the difference between a god creating people and making them suffer vs a man creating another sentient being and doing the same? Regardless of the means of creation.
CtheWolfe 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx
1) I didn't make the video and only posted it to illustrated how unbelievably sick your beliefs are.
2) IF such a being existed the fact that it is powerful does NOT automatically make its actions moral.
The fact that both these issues continue to elude you is just further evidence of the extreme damage cult indoctrination does to a mind. There is NO excuse for genocide EVER, get that through your thick fucking skull.
FlyingFree333 11 months ago 6
@BattleshipTx This is a freaking movie clip and a FICTIONAL(NOT REAL)one at that, but YOU try to turn it into reality. So childish!
mythicalhell 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx Do you have no values that you hold dear? Judge all things by your values. Do not pretend asking a father to kill his son or slaughtering innocents is moral because some man in a costume told you so every Sunday while you were growing up while feeding you grape juice and crackers asking you to pretend to be a cannibal.
jgoemat 11 months ago
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@BattleshipTx You're beyond retarded, people like you are what make me fear for the human race
Magnificoooooo 11 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@BattleshipTx - "There simply isn't any circumstance that makes this video sensible. "
Using a trial of the Jewish God as a literary device makes perfect sense, at least to those of us that are literate.
157626 11 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@BattleshipTx It is a metaphor you simpleton...
turnagainoutlaw 10 months ago
@turnagainoutlaw "It is a metaphor"
A metaphor has to make sense to be useful as a metaphor.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx But if god exists as a character in a book, which he does, then we can most certainly look at that character with a critical eye, which this clip does.
Character analysis is a common subject in high school composition and literacy classes. Have you never taken such a class?
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@GermanChocolateCake That scenario isn't what is happening here. A better description would be that the characters in a book are judging a character in the book they have no right to judge. A book describing a drunken mob grabbing the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and deciding they can lynch him because they don't like his last ruling, but even that isn't enough of a description of how wrong it is. A God is a quintrillion times higher than a Chief Justice in any context.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Yes, but you, being religious, are presuming that the characters of your book are real. I being an atheist, do not. Humans are real, that much is demonstrable. Humans wrote a lot of books. That too is demonstrable. Not all of the characters in those books are or were real, that much is demonstrable as well. You are telling me that the god of one of those books (actually a collection of books cobbled together) is real. I've not seen it demonstrated that you are correct.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@GermanChocolateCake--- It is irrelevant whether the characters are real. If a fictional son improperly and insolently disrespects a fictional parent I can criticize that character for what it did. Doesn't matter if real or fictional. That act portrayed is what I criticize. The characters in the book have no right to judge the superior character. This is true whether it is all fictional or all real.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Therein lies a difference between you and I. Fictional or otherwise I think everyone has the right to question anyone who tries to exert superiority over them. Anything less is being a willing slave and puppet to the will and desires of others. That is not freedom, and is not welcome in my world. While a child might love and respect its parent as it is healthy to, that does not put the parent above reproach. No one should ever bow in unquestioning subservience to anything.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@GermanChocolateCake "I think everyone has the right to question anyone"
That's certainly true for somebody you can throw into a lot with everyone or anyone. If God is what he is said to be, someone who thought or spoke all of our existence into being, you really can't just put him in line with all the other Joe's in an "everyone" style lineup. God is fundamentally different than just another guy. He wouldn't be just anyone. Like someone in one of your dreams trying to put you on trial.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Sure we could. If he has conscious thought, and can communicate, he can can answer questions regardless of how powerful or "special" he is. Just because he's different and possibly unique doesn't mean he's exempt. No one is "just anyone". All thinking beings can be called into question for their actions. That is the very essence of responsibility. And if your god is responsible for so much, he has a great deal he can be questioned about.
So. Where is he? We have many questions?
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
"And if your god is responsible for so much, he has a great deal he can be questioned about."
On whose authority? Getting elected PTA chairman doesn't let me override the Secretary of Education's decisions. We are just so far from having the right to question our own maker, the relationship is a gazillion times even farther apart in authority. It isn't just that he is unique or different. If what is claimed is true, he is reality.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Whose authority do we need to exercise our free will and question whomever we wish about whatever we wish (regardless whether or not an answer is forthcoming)? It's called free will and freedom of speech. Surely you're familiar with those concepts.
Even if one, for the sake of argument, were to assume your god is real, how would it be beyond our power to question him using the free will he presumably gave us? After all, all questions are answered in heaven aren't they?
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx You see, I know where you are actually coming from. You believe god is real, and that to question him is to question the ultimate authority, and that we don't have the right to (that some way it is blasphemous or impertinent to question god). What you fail to see is that you are arguing for a "might makes right" position, something most rational people recognize as a dangerous paradigm. Even in your belief system, questioning god is simply exercising the free will he gave us.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago 8
If this God were just a incredibly powerful force that came along, then your idea of might makes right would be correct. My reasoning is not how powerful he is, but how powerful our obligation to him is. You have heard urban legend stories of car wrecks. Where a rescuer sees an accident ahead, stops and pulls an injured unconscious person to safety from their car right before it explodes. Then is sued by the person because their Walmart sunglasses were lost in the rescue. That's like this video.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx
What obligation?
sdrawkcabgnipytmi 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx That's a terrible analogy. You're just assuming that we've all been "saved" from something by God, and so we owe him something.
But according to your theology, God created everything he's supposedly saving us from. He created us to be susceptible to evil, and didn't give us the power to overcome it alone, and then swooped down to rescue us from it. So he threw all of us non-swimmers in the deep end of the pool and said: "If you obey me, I'll fish you out." And you're OK with that?
instereovideos 10 months ago
@instereovideos-- Not just saved but owe our entire existence to him. I realize you don't believe he exists. But if you are positing that a God like that in the Torah exists, then we would owe him our entire existence. The complaints you give all relate to free will. If he made it impossible to choose evil over good, we don't have it.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
That's true... "if you are positing that a God like that in the Torah exists, then we would owe him our entire existence."
Free will is an illusion. I'd love to go into that, but with logic like yours I might as well try and explain it to my fish. Before we can get into the "free will" required to choose "God," we would first have to know that he exists, and of course there is no evidence of that. It's meaningless to "choose" to believe something. Beliefs aren't a choice. You're confused.
instereovideos 9 months ago
@instereovideos "Free will is an illusion"
If it is, then it is pointless to talk about it. It would also be pointless to talk about logic or confusion, neither could exist if we have no free will and every decision or thought is just chemicals reacting in our brains and we have no control over them.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
That's the worst interpretation of this problem I've heard in months. There's a 60s children's cartoon I think you might really benefit from watching, called "The Point." You're like one of the ridiculous guys in the pointy hats walking around trying to find the "point" of everything.
Just because behavior has an underlying cause does not mean it's "pointless." Things can be meaningful to us even if they don't have an "external meaning."
instereovideos 9 months ago
@instereovideos You are the one that thinks you and I have no free will to do anything. If so, why are you griping about what I type? I don't have any free will in your view. I have to type what I do according to your logic.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx Did you really just say that again? You have no interest in figuring out what other people are trying to tell you, do ya?
Yes, you have to type what you type.. first of all, that's called a tautology. Whatever you type is definitely what you typed... you're brilliant...
You're brain is reacting to the information it knows, combined with the environmental changes that are dictating the thoughts that come to your mind (continued above).
instereovideos 9 months ago
@instereovideos "Yes, you have to type what you type"
After I have typed that it would be true. But before, I have an infinite number of things I can type, whatever I choose to type. I do have a choice. And if you don't think I have a choice, again, why bug me about it?
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
(cont. from below) Here's a thought exercise. Think of a well-known fiction story. Did you do it? Guess what? You didn't choose which one to think of. It popped in there on its own. That's because you can't actually choose your thoughts. They come one after the other, each in response to the last thought you had, plus new sensory information. Your thoughts guide your decisions, and therefore, your actions.
I know, all this makes your little head hurt. Just think on it a while.
instereovideos 9 months ago
@instereovideos "Your thoughts guide your decisions, and therefore, your actions."
I agree with that, but those thoughts produce choices and I can make whatever choices I want. If I have an apple and orange in front of me, I can choose to eat either one, or both, or neither. It is my choice. To pretend we don't have free will to chose any of those courses is wrong. After the fact, you have done what you have done, sure. But before? I can make any of those choices, depending on my will.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
Wrong. Whether or not you eat the apple, or the orange, or neither, is determined by the information in your head, mixed with your brain's automatic responses to the situation. It's a series of bits and pieces that flash through your head and make the decision for you. Hunger, past experiences, even the thoughts about me daring you to try and exercise your "free will" are shaping your response, you just don't realize it. Sorry, but you've only been conditioned to think you have free will : )
instereovideos 9 months ago
Certainly we use our brains in making decisions, but our brain isn't external to us. It is a part of who we are. It can't make a decision for us, it is us. Nothing about picking the apple/orange is inevitable. It is a conscious choice. We use our brains in making the decision, that's all free will means. Eddie Haskell might try your logic out on Beaver Cleaver when he is giving him noogies, saying he has no choice it is just the chemicals in his brain doing it, I doubt that satisfies the Beave.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx Sorry boss, ya got it wrong. But I hope if comforts you to think you have free will.
Back to the point that was being made before we hit a wall where you couldn't understand something fundamental: Belief is not a choice. Your mind is either convinced or not convinced of a claim, and this isn't voluntary. You can't wake up and decide to be Christian or Atheist, or Muslim, etc. You can't "choose God" through free will... you are simply either convinced or not convinced he exists.
instereovideos 9 months ago
"All thinking beings can be called into question for their actions."
Anyone by anyone? Great, I demand you send me all of your bank account information, passwords, credit card info, etc. Are you gonna do it? I bet not. You will say that I don't have any authority to demand that of you. You don't give up your tax returns to retired meat inspectors, you want to see an IRS credential or something from someone in authority. Any human will eventually be subject to some human authority. Not God.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Well, I did specifically say "for their actions". And yeah, you can question me on those things all you want. I'm under no obligation to answer, besides which there is no specific moral implication in my financial details. More to the point is to be called into question regarding the morality of one's actions, and stating god is above such questioning is making the same unfounded assertion as saying god exists to begin with.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx I could say Harry Potter is above reproach. Doesn't mean he exists, and doesn't mean I'm correct regardless.
But I can play your game. I believe there's only one god, he is the sun god. Ra...Ra...RaRaRa!
Now I can tell you, Ra is all powerful! He is beyond the concerns or demands of mortals! Anger him and be burned by the fires of the sun!
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@GermanChocolateCake--Make it about Ra then. The logic is the same. If Ra doesn't exist, it would be pointless to have a trial of him. If we posit for the sake of the story that Ra really does exist, and some of the slaves or workmen building the pyramids decided to have some sort a trial of him, how would that work out? I expect not very good for the pyramid builders if he is all powerful and so easy to anger. Your example proves my point.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Not really. My example serves my point. If there were a god, be it Ra or yours, that being would be subject to questioning for its actions (whether or not doing so would be wise to). However, you hit upon the salient point. If Ra or your god doesn't exist, then a trial of him is ultimately pointless outside of a purely philosophical exercise. Since I don't believe any god exists, the questions I would ask of him are purely in the realm of speculation.
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx And being in the realm of pure speculation, how is any harm done asking those questions of a hypothetical being?
GermanChocolateCake 10 months ago
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@BattleshipTx
"Pretty arrogant to think you can judge God. "
Everybody is entitled to judge fictional characters.
MomoTheBellyDancer 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx o snap!
lnmylife 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx You sound so sure that there is a personal god(in reality), so I kindly ask, what empirical evidence do you have to support this extraordinary claim. The video clip is "fiction" but you interpret it as nonfiction, interesting.
mythicalhell 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx but not nearly as arrogant, then thinking that we cant. your religion is not holier then thou. nobady is above criticism.
gooddarkjedi 11 months ago
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@BattleshipTx Being that God is just a concept, I think it entirely appropriate to judge this concept.
Mahgwa 11 months ago
@BattleshipTx answer me this, if you changed out the name of your god with the name of any other god and retold the stories of the bible, what would be your verdict.
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
@TheHolySTD "hanged out the name"
If it was a monotheistic God that was said to create the whole universe and life itself? The logic would be the same. If I didn't believe in its existence, holding a trial for it would be stupid. If I did believe it existed, I would be arrogant to expect that I could judge such an entity.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Thank you fore retyping that same stupid "answer", let me ask you again, swap out your god with Odin(a god you more then likely don't believe in) and have him be the same murdering evil asshole your god is said to be, how would you judge him? and how is it arrogant to expect that god should meet the same standards that we expect form mere humans?
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
@TheHolySTD "wap out your god with Odin"
Again, if I didn't believe in Odin, I would think it stupid to have a trial of him. Since I don't believe in Odin, I would feel exactly the same way I do now if this video was about a trial of Odin. That it is stupid and illogical, given it is made by people who don't believe in any God. If Odin doesn't exist, how can you have a trial of him?
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx It is at this point I need to ask if you are aware that this clip is from a movie? so a fictional trail for a fictional character is seemingly appropriate, don't you think? and if you notes that thees wear fictional Jews holding this fictional trail, how in this fictional story fictionally believe in god, so in the context of this fictional story it more than appropriate. Your criticism in this regard is like saying playing Ace Attorney is silly since Phoenix Wright isn't real.
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
"fictional trial for a fictional character is ...?"
Not if it is internally inconsistent. If their fictional God as is presented as real, they would not have the right to judge him. If he isn't, then why would they have a trial. But quit pretending this is all fictional. Judaism is a real group of people and the God they worship is real to religious Jews. This isn't a completely fictional story. If Muslims make up stories about "fictional" Jews baking bread with babies blood, is that okay?
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "they would not have the right to judge him." says how?
"But quit pretendingl" I'm not the one playing make-believe hear, is Spider-Man not fiction because he lives in New York, and some of his adventures finds him participating in events inspired by real world events? as for Jewish baby bread there you hare drawing a false equivalence, one is a story presented as true meant to spread hatred and the other toled withe the understanding that it is fiction for entertainment
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
@TheHolySTD "one is a story presented as true meant to spread hatred"
Seriously? You want to take the position that this video have no anti-religious, no anti-"belief in God" motives at all? Baloney. You seriously claim it is just entertainment? Nothing more. You aren't being honest if you claim that.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Ok I'll rephrase my question, do you believe that the stories in the bible are true? and would thees acts committed or ordered by your god be evil if committed or ordered by a human?
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
@HSTD The maker of humanity has rights that another human doesn't. He is the one that decided how long we will live. He decided you and I will have two ears, not three. What food would nourish. I don't have the right to decide that for another human being. Setting humanity equal to God is the essence of what I am complaining about with regard to this video. So yes, there are definitely acts that God takes in the Bible that would be wrong for a human to decide for another human on their own.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
An example of this is Jonah. God picked him to go to Ninevah. That was a place Jonah really, really didn't want to go. If another human told Jonah he had to go to Ninevah, and threatened him with dire consequences if he didn't, that would be wrong. It would be extortion or blackmail. But God chose him and he has the right to do so. Jonah owed God for his whole, life body & existence. God has the right to command Jonah to go somewhere Jonah didn't want to go and to preach what God told him to.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "The maker of humanity has rights that another human doesn't" says who? that he supposedly has the ability to destroy any thing he wants dos not give him the right to.
"Setting humanity equal to God" who is doing that, I can just as easily judge the work of some one that is more skilled them I am and determine if it any good or not, and still hold no illusion that I am somehow more or equally skilled. If any thing we are setting god equal to humans.
TheHolySTD 10 months ago
@HSTD "says who"
Says God when he commands people to do things in the Bible based on his authority.
"I can just as easily judge the work of some one that is more skilled them I am"
Can you really judge the work of a quantum physicist or advanced mathematician? Whether his new theory or mathematical principle is valid or not? You are an expert in every field? But even these situations are still other humans. A God would be a quadrillion google-plex times more impossible for you to judge.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx If you think he decides how long we live then you should not go to the doctor or get vaccinated or use any other scientific luxuries that have DOUBLED life expectancy in the last 200 years. If you still think he decides how long we live then don't go to the hospital when having a heart attack or cancer. If you do, then your going against gods will. If you still think that this is true, then why did hitler live so long? Hitler was Roman Catholic BTW
mitchyd89 10 months ago
@mitchyd89 "then why did hitler live so long?"
Hitler died at age 56, pretty young, not sure the relevancy of that.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx It seems like if god cared at all he would have ended hitler's life before he attempted genocide. Oh, wait. God is OK with genocide, I forgot. You said yourself that he decides how long we live. Why didn't he end hitler's life sooner to save millions of people, or the bombers at Pearl Harbor, or whoever planned 911, etc? Why does he decide to give children under 10 cancer when these bad people run free and healthy? 1. god is an asshole. 2. There is no god. Which makes more sense?
mitchyd89 10 months ago
@mitchyd89 "Why didn't he end hitler's life sooner to save millions of people, or the bombers at Pearl Harbor, or whoever planned 911"
Because his purpose isn't to maximize the amount of time we spend on earth? Nor to make it the most pleasant place we can imagine. He has that place, called heaven and invites us to join him there.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx I'm sure the people that actually get affected by bad things are completely in agreement with you. They just pray for things to get better for no reason and they are happy that god didn't do anything to help save innocent people. Why even bother asking god if his purpose isn't to help minimize suffering? Why call him "god" if he is unable to help? He's an asshole if he is unwilling to help. Why does anyone wait to join him in heaven if he won't help with the suffering here?
mitchyd89 10 months ago
"Why even bother asking god if his purpose isn't to help minimize suffering?"
So, in your view, minimizing suffering is the ONLY motivation that God might have in answering a prayer with a form of relief? Not teaching? Not displaying his power. Not increasing your faith? Who said he is unable to help? He just isn't a bellhop that you signal when you want him to do something. Jumping whenever you ring at your beck and call. God will end our suffering for all time unless you reject Jesus' help.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
"the people that actually get affected by bad things ..."
Just who are the people who aren't in that group? Do you think there are some who don't ever have a terminal illness or accident? Whether it happens young or old, we all experience that eventuality. If old, it is probably pneumonia or congestive heart failure, if a bit younger maybe cancer, and younger still some other disease or childhood illness. But we all are here to experience life and death, and those things are a part of it..
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx You seem like an intelligent theist (a rarity), so could you please answer me this:
1. Do you think that God, as depicted in the Bible, has *always* been moral and just, as you define these terms? I'm asking about your sense of morality, not His, and never mind for a moment which is superior.
2. Do you think that God is capable of lying to or deceiving some people? Do you think that he has been doing so?
roydfox 10 months ago
"Do you think that God, as depicted in the Bible, has *always* been moral and just, as you define these terms"
If asking would I have made the same decisions, not likely. That guy reaches his hand out to steady the ark of the covenant, God strikes him dead. I probably let stuff like that slide, maybe give a warning. But that story just illustrates the futility of me trying to judge God. He may know how critical keeping the ark inviolate through the centuries is to the tribe of Israel. I don't.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
"Do you think that God is capable of lying to or deceiving some people?"
Capable? I love my wife, would never beat her, it isn't my nature. But I have arms and legs and muscles, so does that make me capable? In once sense. But I am incapable in another as it isn't my nature. Same for God, if he can speak then he can lie. But lying isn't in his nature, thus you could say he is incapable in that sense.
"Do you think that he has been doing so?" No. Lying about what? When have you talked to him?
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx I haven't talked to God, to the best of my knowledge. I did study His various supposed creations: namely, the Bible and the Universe.
And again to the best of my understanding, these contradict. The Universe seems to have been created billions of years ago, as does the Earth. Not ~6000 years ago, and not in the way explained in Genesis. Humans seem to have evolved, not created out of dirt and ribs.
So God is deceiving either scientists or Bible readers. Wouldn't you agree?
roydfox 10 months ago
You are under the impression there are dates in the Bible? Do you see the number 6000 somewhere in it? I believe the universe is billions of years old & see nothing that says otherwise in the Bible. Certainly no mention of 6000 years. See you say you studied the Bible, but that date doesn't come from the Bible, it comes from a guy named Bishop Ussher who lived in the 1600s. I won't mention some of the silly things that some scientists believed in 1600, well biblical scholars weren't much better.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
"I did study His various supposed creations: ... the Bible"
Who do you think wrote Genesis? Isn't it purported to have been written by Moses? So whatever complaints that it is deceptive would be on him? The only direct writings that I know of God's were when he wrote "mene, mene tekel parsin" on Nebuchadnezzar's wall. That and the tablets with the Ten Commandments that Moses smashed. Why do you attribute deceptiveness to Moses, couldn't he just be wrong? You jumped to accusations very quickly.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx If you ask for my understanding, it's that the Bible was written (and rewritten) by people, that Moses is a legend, that Belshazzar's wall is a fable, and that the motivation behind it all was a mixture of controlling the masses and pre-scientific naivete.
But I'm really confused about your point of view. If you agree that the Bible was written by people, why do you believe that God exists? Are you relying on some logical argumentation? Personal experience? Something else?
roydfox 10 months ago
@roydfox "If you agree that the Bible was written by people, why do you believe that God exists?"
Just because people wrote it, doesn't mean it doesn't have elements of truth in it. Particularly people inspired to write it by the God they are, in part, talking about. Maybe I am overly sensitive to knee jerk accusations of lying when someone uncovers a mistake someone else has said in error. We are seeing that in politics today frequently, and that's sad. But that is a different subject.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
From my viewpoint, human writers just make it better. I enjoy having several different gospels all telling the same story from different viewpoints & to different audiences. Matthew writing to serious Jews (assuming the reader knows intricate Jewish rituals) , Mark writing to non-Jews who have never been to Palestine (explaining Aramaic words everyone there would know) & Luke writing to young Christians (he says so). The OT has words of warning by prophets, wisdom by wise men, songs, history ...
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx I agree. I attributed falsehood to deceit, not mistake, only because I thought we were assuming a divine source. God wouldn't make mistakes.
So basically what you're saying is that what (some of) the authors of the Bible wrote seems so inspired, that God must have existed to inspire them. Is that right?
To me, Occam's Razor demands a much simpler explanation: there simply were some very smart people in history. Don't you agree that this is a better and simpler explanation? Why not?
roydfox 10 months ago
@roydfox The Bible doesn't impress me because it is smartly written. It isn't the author's intelligence that amazes me. It is what is written there, what happened, not some intelligence test. It fits better with the reality I see around me than any other answer for what I see. Occam's Razor demands that it be true. It is the simplest answer for why we are here and what caused us to be here. So far other answers I have seen are just way too complex.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Just note that we need to choose the simplest answer among the ones that actually fit reality.
This is how science works: if you are able to demonstrate a part of the Bible which fits reality better than current science, then scientists will have to reject their current understanding and accept that part of the Bible as the new best explanation.
So you may be on to something important. Please share! What reality is explained better by what part of the Bible, than by science?
roydfox 10 months ago
The simplest answer is an intelligence. You have to try to describe extraordinary circumstances to the causation of the universe and to the causation of the first life form without intelligent intervention. Intelligent intervention is the simplest answer. The Bible is mostly a book of the history of Israel and biographies of a man named Jesus, not sure why you are looking there for science answers..
" will have to reject their current understanding"
There is nothing in conflict to reject.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
Science for decades insisted on the steady state theory of the universe. Atheists made fun of Genesis for describing a beginning. Eventually Georges Lemaitre proposed the theory Known as the Big Bang, & it was proven correct by Hubble. Einstein admitted he was reluctant to accept it at first because it was so close to Christian dogma, but the evidence was soon indisputable. So science will eventually catch up to the Bible. The Bible just gives us additional info about an intelligent creator.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx If Intelligent Design seems simpler than Abiogenesis, it's because you're comparing apples and oranges. What's ID's explanation for *how* life began? If I had a planet factory, would life evolve on my planets? Abiogenesis: yes, quite often. ID: *shrug*.
What *would* be extraordinary, fantastic even, is an intelligent designer.
So ID has a fantastic premise, doesn't explain anything, and contradicts the only theory which does explain the beginning of Life. Why take it seriously?
roydfox 10 months ago
@roydfox " If I had a planet factory, would life evolve on my planets? "
You are mixing concepts. Evolution is how life changes over time through natural selection. It has nothing to do with abiogenesis.
"contradicts the only theory which does explain the beginning of Life"
What theory are you talking about? I am unaware of any scientific theory that explains the beginning of life. There is no accepted theory, or even plausible theory, for how abiogenesis occurred on Earth.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "would life evolve on my planets?"
I meant that colloquially - would life evolve from non-life in a lab.
"There is no accepted theory, or even plausible theory, for how abiogenesis occurred on Earth."
There are a number of plausible theories, such as the RNA world and the Iron-Sulfur world. They are consistent with the large body of facts which *are* known, and unlike ID explain a lot more. There are gaps, sure, and sub-theories to bridge them, but nothing as fantastic as Theology.
roydfox 10 months ago
"would life evolve from non-life in a lab"
Life evolves into other life forms through natural selection. Non-life doesn't evolve into life. Ever. Granite boulders don't evolve into jet airliners. Things don't naturally change into other things on their own like life can. Projects in Labs are the result of intelligent planning not evolution. Life has mechanisms inside it to let it change. Non-life doesn't. Carbon and other atoms don't hop up and evolve into life. There is no mechanism for it.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
"number of plausible theories"
The Iron-Sulfer world just shows how difficult it would be for life on earth to start. They have to find deep undersea vents, etc, because the earth is so hostile to their theories. That is why atheists like Crick are abandoning the idea life started on Earth and pursuing the "diaspora" ideas that it started somewhere else more hospitable and came here as seeds or spores. The RNA world doesn't solve 99% of the problems, e.g chirality, hostile conditions, etc.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "how difficult it would be"
But not impossible.
And get rid of the idea of "solving all the problems". We can't know everything. We can't be certain of anything. If you're looking for absolute answers, you'll find them, but they will be wrong because they're not being challenged.
If you tell me that you have the answers that we mortals may take 1000 years to reach, then you're arrogant, delusional, and potentially dangerous. Please come to your senses.
It's been a pleasure. Thanks.
roydfox 10 months ago
@roydfox "But not impossible."
Looks practically impossible to me. Also now you've gone from looking from the simplest Occam's razor answer to "not impossible". The intelligent creator is clearly not impossible and looks like a very simple answer. Why did you abandon the simple answer for these practically impossible ones?
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx How improbable does something have to be to be "practically impossible"? One in a Billion? One in a Quintillion? We just can't grasp these numbers. If Abiogenesis and Evolution happen every second with probability one in a Quintillion, it would be surprising if it *didn't* happen on one of a Billion planets within 1000 years. And it had a Million times that long!
The creator only looks possible and simple because you keep refusing to say anything factual about Him. Not an answer!
roydfox 10 months ago
"refusing to say anything factual about Him"
What do you want to know? God described himself as:
Exodus 3:14- "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
That is who he is, the ultimate reality. Pretty sophisticated concept for Bronze Age writers. It is just a much simpler, Occam's Razor friendly answer, compared to your 1 in a Quintillion idea. And your idea only solves life, not the creation of the universe. Mine does both.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Waitwhat?
Was there ever a more evasive and meaningless answer? Is God actually the Cat in a Hat? Is it sinful to like green eggs and ham? (It is for Jews...)
Also, I thought we agreed that those lines were written by inspired but fallible people. God may or may not have actually said that.
I want to know: how He did it, technically? What was His methodology? Motivation? And that's before I get personal.
We have some ideas about the universe. Working on it. Yours is not an answer!
roydfox 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Waitwhat?
Was there ever a more evasive and meaningless answer? Is God actually the Cat in the Hat? Is it sinful to like green eggs and ham? (It is for Jews...)
Also, I thought we agreed that those lines were written by inspired but fallible people. God may not have actually said that.
I want to know: how He did it, technically? What was His methodology? Motivation? And that's before I get personal.
We have some ideas about the universe. We're working on it. Yours is not an answer!
roydfox 10 months ago
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Max Planck said:“As a man who devoted his life to the most clear-headed science to the study of matter, I can tell you as the result of my research about atoms, this much—there is no matter as such. All matter originates & exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration & holds this most minute solar system of the atom together--We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious & intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” Great answer
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "Non-life doesn't evolve into life. Ever."
Extremely unlikely things are bound to happen in a Billion years. It challenges the imagination, so don't try. Do the math instead.
"Things don't naturally change into other things on their own"
Volcanoes into lava plains? Oceans into icebergs? Atoms into molecules, into bigger molecules, and so on?
"Projects in Labs are the result of intelligent planning not evolution."
Well, duh. But they resemble aspects of things that happen naturally.
roydfox 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx So let's take a step back, please, madam or sir:
When I ask how life was created, and you say "God did it", you haven't answered my question. Just like "Toyota did it" is not an answer to "how was this car built?". Maybe science doesn't currently have the best answer, but theology has no answer.
So when you say that intelligent intervention is the simplest answer, what is the question?
roydfox 10 months ago
@roy "So when you say that intelligent intervention is the simplest answer, what is the question?"
I meant for a question like: "what caused our universe to be here?"
"Maybe science doesn't currently have the best answer, but theology has no answer."
Science is working towards the same answer that theology gives. The role of observation in physics for example. Science used to believe this universe had always been here, even though Genesis claimed a beginning. Now with The Big Bang, it agrees.
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx "what caused our universe to be here?"
If your answer is "a Creator", then it's far from complete. Describe the Creator. In detail please, with reasoning and evidence. Thanks.
"Science is working towards the same answer that theology gives."
Nice prophecy, we can't prove or disprove it, but current science is pretty sure theology is wrong in many ways. A reversed Pascal wager: if science is wrong, it will correct itself at some point. If theology is wrong, it will be wrong forever.
roydfox 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Thank you for your bravely honest answers.
Yes, God may have an Ultimate Reason for His actions (and inactions) which you and I fail to see. Or He may not; maybe He is irrational, or whimsical, or just evil (or for inactions - indifferent, or powerless). You seem to think that that's not the case, you seem to think that He is good, purposeful, all-powerful, and that His morality is superior (in an absolute sense).
So I have to ask, why do you think that? If indeed you do.
roydfox 10 months ago
"So I have to ask, why do you think that?"
In part because I see more reason for those actions than you acknowledge. If we really are eternal (sounds really long, doesn't it? )creatures, spending a half dozen decades on Earth, seeing what it is like to not be protected 24/7 by God, not just seeing but experiencing the yuckiness of evil, that makes some sense to me. If we are really going to make our own choices about who we are, good guy or bad guy, wouldn't we have to have freedom to choose?
BattleshipTx 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx Saying you can't judge such an entity is exactly the problem. Faith has blinded you from the reality of god's actions. You are most likely scared to question his actions because you have been scared of hell since someone told you at a young age. I know because I felt the same way until I realized it is all a story made up by PEOPLE thousands of years ago to control other people. Hell is not real so start questioning everything without worry, even the existence of god.
mitchyd89 10 months ago
@BattleshipTx In the bible, God killed approximately 2,000,000 people, not counting the global flood, the tenth plague of Egypt, or the wars waged in his name.
Satan, on the other hand, only killed 10.
How can you justify the actions of a being that is more bloodthirsty than the embodiment of evil? And don't say, "Because he is God and thus above us," because that is not a justification, it's an excuse.
61btod 9 months ago
@61btod "In the bible, God killed approximately ..."
God has killed somewhere north of about 110 billion people, basically everyone who has ever lived. He made us. He set limits on how long we could live. You aren't going to live to 200 years old. God decided that lifespan. Humans live on Earth at his fiat and discretion. For just a short while in the scheme of things given we are eternal beings. Why would Satan want to kill anyone? He wants to tempt you to believe the things that you do.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx I wasn't talking about every peson who simply died, I was only talking about the people who were killed directly by God and recorded in the bible.
So by your logic, temptation is worse than wholesale slaughter. Oh yes, that makes perfect sense. And Satan didn't tempt me into believing the things I do, because I don't believe he exists, just like God. I came to my own conclusions by looking at all the facts, not just the ones I wanted and then sticking my head in the sand.
61btod 9 months ago
" wasn't talking about every peson who simply died"
But you should have been. When someone reaches 90 & dies of old age, who decided you get that long and no longer? God. He is responsible for all deaths. He created us and set the limits that you call "simply" dying. Nothing is simple about it, God willed that those people would die. You are way underestimating the deaths God is DIRECTLY responsible for.
"... temptation is worse than wholesale slaughter."
Yes. The Consequences are worse.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx So what you're saying is that despite having free will, God is still in complete control of our lives? Then what the fuck is the point of having free will?!
61btod 9 months ago
You get to choose who you want to be. Are you aligning with good or evil? There are some pretty big decisions there, but God isn't giving you an unlimited life span to make them. That's his choice. I have free will, but somehow naming myself Emperor of the World doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean I don't have free will. You don't control everything in your life, e.g. who your parents are, whether a random stranger shoots you in a drive-by. But you do have choices & will be judged on them.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx But then how does one have free will if everything is already predetermined by God? If I get killed in a drive-by tomorow, was it by the gangsters' free will or did God take over and forced them to do so? Where do you draw the line between free will and God's will?
61btod 9 months ago
Free will is just the freedom to make choices. It doesn't mean you can stop an enemy from invading your country, a bus from running over you or whatever. Gangsters have free will too. god is smart enough to have multiple ways to accomplish what he wants. If the gangsters decide to take a vacation day, then there are a trillion other ways God can use to end your life. Always the nice brain aneurysm or heart attack if it needs to be done quickly, or just mutate a cancer cell if there is more time.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx I just want to know why you think God killing everyone is a good thing. Or at the very least, not a bad thing.
61btod 9 months ago
I wouldn't particularly designate it as good or bad, it seems to be a part of his plan for us on Earth. If you get to go to heaven, that would make it a good thing. But even without the concept of heaven, being unable to die sounds awful. Hit by a bus and limbs scattered everywhere, but impossible to die? Crushed in an airplane crash, but can't die? Death is a comfort in some cases. If you really believe in an immortal soul, death may look different than to a nonbeliever.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx You seem to missunderstand. I have nothing against death, it is a part of life, there is no way around it. It's the idea of death being the conscious decision of someone else that I have a problem with. And the fact that you obviously don't is what I have trouble understanding.
61btod 9 months ago
@61btod-- Do you have the same problem with the idea that your creation was the conscious decision of someone else? Because if there is a God, he simply decided we would exist. We wouldn't have otherwise. That puts him in a whole different position than just some other human making that kind of decision.
BattleshipTx 9 months ago
@BattleshipTx But does being the creator mean he has the right to dephile his creation? I am the result of a coupling between my parents, does that give them the right to kill me?
61btod 9 months ago
In creating humanity, God decided everything about us, how tall we would be, how many eyes we would have, how smart we would or wouldn't be, to have emotions or not, to respond to humor or not recognize it, and how long we would live. Things that no one else but a Creator could do. Parents don't have that control. All they do is let you into this world, they don't control who you are or what you will be. They don't create you in the same sense. They just open the package, not invent the product.
BattleshipTx 8 months ago
@BattleshipTx Open the package? If anything, parents (mothers especially) are the factory. They're the ones who take the time and effort to make another human being, and to raise it once it's born. And you want to place all that credit on God? A being who doesn't seem to realise that we have a useless apendix and detrimental wisdom teeth among countless other flaws? God is not only cruel, vengefull and petty, but he is also incompetent.
61btod 8 months ago
@61btod-- God created the very atoms we are made of. It takes like 5 minutes for parents to have sex. All they are doing is using the tools God so carefully gave them. All the genetic code, all of the stuff that will make you who you are come from him. God decides how tall you will grow, what eye color you will have, what sex you will be, and in particular, genetics that will decide how long your maximum life span will be. A quickie isn't comparable to that.
BattleshipTx 8 months ago
@BattleshipTx Ah, but God's not the one who has to carry the baby for nine months, supplying it with nutrients and oxygenated blood. "Carefully given tools"? So God "carefully" made it so that the mother has to experience utter agony during childbirth? Apparently, he is also a mysogenyst. Not surprising, really...
61btod 8 months ago
@61btod -- Not really her nutrients or oxygenated blood. All that created by God. God even conceived the idea of nutrients and of having blood carry oxygen..
"So God "carefully" made it so that the mother has to experience utter agony during childbirth"
Yes. You must have missed the punishment he handed out for letting the serpent deceive her. Genesis 3:16: "To the woman he said: “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." "
BattleshipTx 8 months ago
@BattleshipTx Obviously you give God waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit.
So he punished all women for the actions of one? Yeah, that seems reeeeeeeeal fair.
61btod 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Yep, gotta see this movie now.......
parkert51 11 months ago
Great upload FlyingFree333!
nothingnesswithouten 11 months ago
It's nice to remember that there is no good reason to think that such a god exists.
nothingnesswithouten 11 months ago
I adore the Beeb, I really do. This is incredibly powerful.
Azremodehar 11 months ago
This is great that they figured out that their Imaginary friend is mean, cruel, unjust and a general dick, but they should be discussing whether or not they should be having an imaginary friend in the first place. It is all conjecture even if it is the answer you would like to hear.
cmsalvagio 11 months ago
it is no wonder that most jews i know are cultural, and atheist by belief. Great piece.
burlapshire 11 months ago
God....... you're fired. I want you and all your shit out by this afternoon. Oh and do seek help for your schizophrenic psychosis.
MARICHIYA 11 months ago 6
WOW... Powerful... Just... wow...
FatRakoon 11 months ago 2
Holy crap, this looks like a good movie!
ScienceWillPrevail 11 months ago