Final Cut: The Making and Unmaking of Heaven's Gate (Part 5 of 8)

[saukrates420]

Michael Cimino is the most pretentious film director of all time. One word, Hubris.

[dornravlin]

they should have gotten sergio leone

[trulysarcastic]

amazing how once they told Cimino he would lose final cut if he went over the new budget suddenly there was no more problems, no waiting for the perfect cloud. It goes to show that Cimino was just wasting time. Whether it was perfectionist attitude, ego, no respect to UA, drugs(which has been a rumour) it doesn't say much for Cimino

[thedrmat]

@trulysarcastic

It is the ultimate depiction of giving in too easily to the demands of an egotistical asshole.  As it happens with many "celebrities".

[TeehpodT]

Gotta love these battle scenes. And all the others with the extras, too. I mean: Fuck CGI. This movie is epic!

[GTBurns48215]

UA execs stepped in too little too late.

[jngr1]

That British editor claimed that everyone would have walked if Cimino would have been fired, even though he wrote it. I doubt that. For instance, Akira Kurosawa cowrote many of the Japanese scenes in "Tora! Tora! Tora!" and he was fired from directing that. I don't hear of anyone walking from that movie. In fact, Fox eventually did a different film with him- "Kagemusha," and he had good movies after that. Cimino didn't, and no one will touch him.

[jngr1]

@jngr1 I know, George Lucas had something to do with having Fox assist with backing "Kagemusha," but I can only type so much in a comment. But I digress.

The difference between Kurosawa and Cimino was that Toho was skeptical of Kurosawa despite his strong track record and UA put their eggs in the Cimino basket after he only directed two movies.

[fredblassie123]

Why the F*ck would you star Kris K. and not Jeff Bridges as the star? And the french chick...holy shit this was a f*cked up situation.

Cimino looks a little like Bernie Madoff too..................

[McCoy38]

talk about biting the hand that feeds you. I wonder if he would have had the same approach if he were financing the film himself?

[JuanMacready]

I wish Kris Kristofferson had died of lung cancer thirty years ago.

[actlloyd]

@JuanMacready wtf?? Why? Eat shit and die!

[borderlord]

@JuanMacready

You're a cock.

Been a star of anything lately have you??

[industrialsun]

That battle scene is one of most spectacularly misconceived undertakings in film history. Huppert riding horse and firing pistol? What, she is an action hero? Blue Danube Waltz guitar theme is a device used in Deer Hunter but comically out of place here. All safety issues/injuries to people/animals coupled with Cimino's unchecked hubris antagonized more than just critics and industry execs: animal rights activists, the movie extras (who appear to have repudiated their roles in film).

[wvfii]

i've not seen this, but the scope and detail are kind of awe-inspiring. which begs the question: why the hell did he cast a bore like Kristofferson* in the lead role??

*please note that I love Kris. "The Silver-Tongued Devil & I" and "Kristofferson" are perennial favorites. but the dude is just wooden onscreen.

[frantic1971]

I disagree with what that lady says. They should have just fired Cimino and brought in another director. Movie studios have done that before, and it isn't that "everyone would have walked away' like that lady claims.

[zooeyhall]

Stephen Bach's great book, and also the story of Heaven's Gate itself, is not only interesting for the behind-the-scenes story it tells. It is also an invaluable study for any business executive--regardless of the business--on how to manage and avoid obviously bad projects and decisions. This documentary should be required viewing in any film school.

[jonathanmelia]

@zooeyhall Bach became a very good writer, it's true. Am reading his biography of Leni Riefenstahl and it's teriffic.

[thoughtsurfer1]

The parallels between this and the heaven's gate cult are amazing, because they both involved meglomaniacs who made other people commit suicide.

[jonathanmelia]

It doesn't matter how pretty your pictures are. You have to have a decent script, and interesting characters.

[CaseyStelken]

I didn't know John Lovitz was such an obsessive director.

[cobolsaurus]

The American Humane Association (AHA) asserted that four horses were killed and many more injured during this battle scene. One of the horses was claimed to have been killed, and its rider (Ronnie Hawkins, who survived), were claimed to have been blown up by dynamite, the footage of which appears in the final cut.

[ScottLowry41988]

9:25 - 9:45 Jon Lovitz? haha

[FelixOcato]

That journalist is the only inspiring thing about this whole trainwreck. Everything else is just deliciously funny.

[nycic]

Profligate: wildly extravagant.

Cimino was never anything more than meagerly talented. In Kurosawa's league? Are you kidding? Kubrick? Be serious. Cimino was ambitious, yes. Some of you are confusing ambition with real ability. You need to reassess that.

[THEFRANKLINFILM]

Cimino had plenty of ability but he was lazy and unprepared for the shoot and with large crews that is a disaster. Stanley Kubrick always worked with small crews, that's how he could afford to take time while shooting, he knew the logistics of filmmaking. Cimino ignored them.

[pawel115]

One word about this movie DUD.

[Ramble1212]

FUCKING

please fuck off you moronic fuck you really have no clue do you? well answer me!!

fucking pussy fagget. fucker

[scorsese86]

Cimino kinda looks like Jon Lovitz!

[nickmoviemverdi]

HAHAHAHA that's who he's been reminding me of this entire time! Thank you for saying that haha I couldn't think of who he reminded me of!

[scottmanduzy]

@scorsese86 did at one time. Now he looks like an old woman after dye and surgery on his face.

[jts729]

"Too big to fail" always means it will fail.

[TheBermudaMan]

@jts729 Try telling James Cameron that.

[snakes3425]

@TheBermudaMan

Cameron was also heaily criticized for Titanic and Avatar's budgets getting out of control and for being dictatorial and a perferctionist on set (hell he pretty much rebuilt the Titanic in 1997) and people were saying Titanic and Avatar were the next Heaven's Gate prior to their releases. The big differences being that Titanic and Avatar are great movies and Heaven's Gate is a mess, also Titanic and Avatar are the opposite of Heaven's Gate in terms of financal success

[TheBermudaMan]

@snakes3425 AVATAR Was a financially successful movie, no doubt about it. But a GOOD movie? That's a matter of perspective. I feel AVATAR is really just as bloated and overwrought in its own right as HEAVEN'S GATE. The only difference is that Cameron simply has a keener understanding of how to appeal to "the popcorn crowd" than Cimino did.

[snakes3425]

@TheBermudaMan

Avatar and Heaven's Gate are also two different genres. Avatar is science fiction, Heaven's Gate is a Western, Cameron had directed Science Fiction before with the first two Terminator Movies and Aliens and he knew what science fiction fans want. Cimino created beautiful sets but didn't understand Westerns, you say Western to anyone what comes to mind: John Wayne, Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Indian Wars, Cowboys, Outlaws, Sherriffs, the Gold Rush, Gunfights

[McLarenMercedes]

@snakes3425

Sturgeon's Law "90% of all sci-fi is crud". He was a respected sci-fi writer. This means if you give the "science fiction fans" what they want, you get junk which is all flash and no substance.

Zorro never took place in the wild west either. What's wrong with you?? The character traditionally appeared in Spanish colonial California in the late 1700's.

"Once Upon A Time in the West" is considered one of the best westerns of all times and it had none of your examples.

[snakes3425]

@TheBermudaMan

Cont..

the point I'm trying to make is that people go to see Westerns the same reason they go to see Science Fiction films, escapism, feeling like you're going back to this period of history that has been highly romanticized, this movie was suppose to be about the events leading upto and during the Johnson County War, which lasted only eight days, what's the point of using the major figures form an event and not have the event

[snakes3425]

@TheBermudaMan

cont.

Point I want to try and stress is that where as Cameron has had experience in directing science fiction films like Avatar, did Cimino ever direct a western like Heaven's Gate

[snakes3425]

@TheBermudaMan

I think with Avatar it depends on which verson you see, the orginal release, re-release, or the special directors cut on the 3 disk set. The major diffference is that Heaven's Gate bombed so badly it never had to contend with what Avatar now has to face: a sequal that will without a doubt have very high expectations

[McLarenMercedes]

@snakes3425

Are you implying that Cimino would have made a sequal had "Heaven's Gate" been a success?? Is there an end to the nonsense that comes out of you?

Why are you comparing "Pocahontas-meets-Dances With Wolves-in outer space" with "Heaven's Gate"?

1,6 million people saw Red Letter Media's scorching review of Avatar. He raises some very good points, which even you should understand after watching it. A real eye opener to people with half a brain.

[snakes3425]

@McLarenMercedes

I can already tell you're not a science fiction fan. The point I want to drive home is the times had changed when Heaven's Gate came out, Cimnio put too much emphisis on authenticity and not enough on story or casting. All those film makers you mentioned, they were able to deliver the goods and tell stories. I love Hitchcock, and the others but I couldn't list them because of the 500 character limit

[McLarenMercedes]

@snakes3425

Neither Titanic nor Avatar are "great movies". I agree they were commercial successes but so was The Phantom Menace, Transformers and the Twilight movies. By contrast "No Country for Old Men", "There Will Be Blood" and "Goodfellas" weren't commercially popular.

Sorry, but in order to save myself the troulbe I suggest you watch Red Letter Media's brilliant review of Avatar and see what tricks Cameron uses.

As for Titanic, cardboard characters and very black and white.

[snakes3425]

@jts729

Tell that to James Cameron (Titanic and Avatar), George Lucas (Star Wars and Indiana Jones), Steven Spielberg (Saving Private Ryan, ET, Close Encounters), Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings and King Kong 2005), Merian C. Cooper (King Kong 1933) or Francis Ford Coppila (Apacalypse Now and Godfather).

In the case of Heaven's Gate, they should've fired Cimino when they realized how out of control it was budget was and shut it down if he said no, call the police and forcibily shut it down

[McLarenMercedes]

@snakes3425

Knew you were clueless. James Cameron?? He doesn't know a thing about character development and is just flash.

George Lucas is a hack and he did NOT direct Indiana Jones thank you very much. Had Star Wars been released the way Lucas intended it, it would have been a huge flop. Fortunately for him he the producer Gary Kurtz with screenplay writer Lawrence Kasdan improve Lucas's flimsy vision.WHO calls George Lucas a good director?? Again I urge you to see RedLetterMedia

[McLarenMercedes]

@snakes3425

Star Wars is pretty much ripped of Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress" from the 1950's. So much so that Lucas himself admits it was ain important influence.

That you fail to mention Martin Scorsese, Stanley Kubrick, Akira Kurosawa, John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock, Fritz Lang (infinitely more important than Meridian C.Cooper) or Orson Welles essentially disqualifies you from any serious discussion.

You just list blockbuster movies.

George Lucas? Great film maker?? Oh dear.

[thegreeninferno]

millions and millions dollars though!

[thegreeninferno]

Hey it's only money!

[halbie71]

I think Heaven's Gate is/was a masterpiece of filmaking,

[Stukov16]

I support your view entirely. We will come to it again when people will really understand it...

[Cocheese0]

This is funny as hell