Peter Kreeft The Existence of God part 2 of 8 apologetics

[HammerofHeretics]

Ha! Atheists ARE snobs. They think not believing in God makes the brilliant. What a bunch of boobs.

[davemccune]

The "argument from common consent" is rarely used because it is, by definition, a fallacy. Just because a lot of people think a proposition is true says nothing about its truth value. I have to admit I was absolutely befuddled by Kreeft's use of this argument, seeing as how the vast majority of people on this planet aren't Christians. By his own logic, Christianity is untrue. I guess all Christians are "snobs," right?

[grandconjunct]

Prt 1 ) No Actually Atheists misunderstand the argument from Common Consent , its actually similar to the Argument from Religious experience and in many ways similar to Argument from Desire, its not a crude Ad populum argument at all as you ignorantly assume, people naturally have a desire for worship and reverence , just look at tube atheists fawn over Dawkins! its conceivable this tendency is from delusion, but more likely the atheist is the one suffering from deprivation and delusion ...

[Purushadasa]

Exactly!

The atheist posits that the vast majority of human beings on the planet -- the Theists -- are somehow deluded, which is highly implausible and also extremely pessimistic.

The Theists understand, conversely, that the extreme miniscule minority, the atheist, is the one who is deluded, and this worldview is not only more reasonable and not extremely pessimistic as the atheist worldview is, but it is the only one of the two views that is realistic.

[Purushadasa]

No Theists have ever posited the bizarre notion that "because most people are Theists then God must exist." That is a deliberate misrepresentation of the argument (straw-man logical fallacy) on the part of the atheist.

In fact, the Theists' argument is the exact opposite: the ample scientific and logical evidence for God's factual appearance and activities is so clear and irrefutable that the vast majority of intelligent human beings on the planet accept it and reject atheist dogma™.

[grandconjunct]

Prt 2 )...More LIKELY the atheists is suffering from a delusion much like the Deaf person who denies the existence of music and says he will not be persuaded by the Majority who "claim" to hear magical music or the frightened tenant who hears screams below the apartment but tells the children I heard nothing. If we are wrong about God its far more than collective Error more like collective psychosis but before you can make that claim you must make a postive case for atheism which you can't.

[cheesemonkey1990]

Dr. William Craig gives us 5 things science can not prove

1. estetic judgements

2. reason/logic

3. metaphysical truths (There is another mind besides my own)

4. History

5. science (this is arguing in a circle)

[BeefEraser15]

Just to nitpick on spelling: *Aesthetic

[legolasegb]

What on earth does he mean by prove? Does he mean empirical proof or what? There is a such thing as historical proof, but a different subject matter has different methods of inquiry and therefore a different set of criteria for proofs.

[cheesemonkey1990]

we mean that we must be able to present inarguable evidence that states that God exists. You are right: it depends on what you are trying to prove... we need philosophical proof because God is immaterial, listen to the audio around 1:09 and up, it may clear this up..

[cheesemonkey1990]

Creed tells us what we beleive, deed shows us what we truely believe.

[cheesemonkey1990]

What kind of evidence are you looking for? Scientific evidence is a joke when discussing God.... God is beyond the physical world and is intangible.

[mrqsilveira]

Not what Mr. Kreeft refers to as mind, but I am not sure our whole being is unfit to reach God as soon as I supposed God has already granted me this Grace before I came into existence. In fact, God granted me Jesus, the Lord, into my whole being as a Grace. God hasn't granted Jesus to King David or to Moses But to me He did! Why am I so special that God graciously gave me Jesus?

[Stake2]

I'd disagree with James on the dichotomy between tender and tough; neither happiness nor truth must be the most important thing.

In addition, the status of "fact" is philosophically problematic ever since the dawn of postmetaphysics. The reasoning of James is still quite American which makes any universalisations made out of it problematic.

[elroy2112]

We prefer reason in America but I dont think its fair to imply they dont use it in Europe, they just use it to a lesser degree sometimes in some areas, With self refuting Ideas Like the Idea there is no Universal world view or universal Metaphysics that judges between poorer Metaphysics like (post metaphysics).Super sophisticated Fin reasoning is Universally problematic if it thinks truth is not only not most important but not even objectively real. Nice "fact free" post! ;-)

[greatsea]

If God really stooped to conquer then he would accept an honest atheist's disposition if it were one of favorability to the idea of God. Atheism is a strange condition of mind to me and I can't be sure what God himself makes of it. I do think that if it's not honest and also not disposed towards benevolence it could lose eternal life. I for one think I will see some atheists in heaven. Of course what I am saying may seem absurd to a true atheist but I'm not really addressing an atheist.

[elroy2112]

Its sounds like your talking about the Catholics Medieval Doctrine of "Invincible Ignorance" where a person sort of Loves Love but thinks they hate God or Jesus or thinks they are a Buddhist or atheist, but since God said he was Love they are literally loving God, though they are ignorant of this especially in the atheists case. though many atheists clearly have hatred for humanity but call it love such as Stalin and Mao and some who only spread hate on youtube then call it Love for humanity

[elroy2112]

prt 2>

JULZARBO> Belief as a bet does not deter from atheism.

ELROY> Atheism is a bad bet, because atheism is Irrational.

You should become a Christian because its true and avoids the irrationality of atheism and it is good to love good, to Love God, you should reason if there is a God of infinite goodness he deserves your allegiance and Faith/trust I risk doing a great injustice by not acknowledging him, and not for fear of punishments or rewards.

[elroy2112]

prt 1> Kreeft rejects the popular formulation of pascals wager in this video calling it crude and selfish in that formulation, the fact you missed that julzabro shows how atheists are either naturally Blind or dishonest. there are more options than being 1). good for rewards 2). fear of punishments, theres a 3rd option atheists never mention, being Good because you Love good, (i.e. Love God) of course in an atheistic evolutionary world biological rewards and punishments are all that can exist.

[julzabro]

Being counted within the minority does NOT make one a snob, it merely proves individuality and/or FREE THINKING! Sheep all follow each other and stay with the majority....I guess sheep don't wanna appear snobbish to other sheep!!!...;)

[elroy2112]

Thinking you heard someone on this video or thread defend Pascals wager is wild eyed non-thinking, now you think you heard kreeft say being in any minority is wrong? or sobish?, you're not a "free thinker", but FREE OF THINKING. only 1.6% of U.S. population self identify as "atheist"Pew 2008) thinking most are crazy to believe in God and are imagining things yet you  don't entertain the theory you could suffer from God blindness (like color blindness) you are snobs for elitism not numbers!

[kalsolarUK]

pascals wager is bullshit...I can't believe this speaker does'nt realise that.

[elroy2112]

No wonder earlier you were saying you did not understand anything Kreeft said, You have no ability to concentrate or think, and you always miss the obvious, but like most atheists you replace your lack of argument with bitter name calling. Kreeft made it clear in this video he rejects the popular form of Pascals wager but somehow you missed that! but then if you can miss God, you can miss anything in a video too I guess.

[VoiceOfModeration]

Let's say God exists and will only allow into heaven all those who had enough courage not to believe in him. It's possible, right? Probable even? Why not take the chance, there's nothing to lose right.

[elroy2112]

Pascals wager assumes the evidence for God as been inconclusive , Most evidentialists like me won't grant that, God is logically necessary in every possible universe , and atheism is Irrational in every possible universe, so this leaves your Barkers atheist wager without a foundation, and leaves you and Dan falling through a trapped door, sort of like hoping God may reward those who believe in a flat earth and punishing round earthers, Its Possible but wildly unlikely. atheism is a bad bet.

[DADShadowFox]

merely believing in a god won't save you from damnation. If you apply pascal's wager to being a christian, there are countless religions according to which you will suffer an eternity.

[grandconjunct]

Dad> merely believing in a god won't save you from damnation.

Grand>> No one believes "merely believing in a God" even the correct one will save you. see James 2:19, and I have never liked the popular formulations of pascals wager, If you had watched the complete video series you are now commenting on you would see Peter Kreeft does not like it Either.

[NoMereRanger303]

But if one applies Pascal's wager to all religions (as you suggest it should), it is still valid. Christianity, with its historical and philosophical evidences, is more reasonable a belief then Greek Mythology, which can only be supported by stories. That's just an example, but I think it can be applied to all philosophies and religions.

[Oisin29]

whther u believe or not, your life does not change much. only after death and even so we are not sure of anything but our life

[grandconjunct]

What do you mean ?

[redbrest]

My Life Changed, So much so as it can only be compared by light verse dark.

From Darkness to light, I am not at all the same person I was before Christ came into my life.

Not At All.........

[LimbaughIsCool]

Pascal's wager is a beast!

[Homie0static]

Why can it not be true either way.

[Homie0static]

I am not sure if there is a God or not. Personally I don't believe in the "white bearded judge" perception. That notion is antiquated. I do believe in the existence of a spirit world but I do concede that I could be wrong. "If there is a God, he is within. You don't ask God to give you things, you depend on God for your inner theme." - Bruce Lee

[grandconjunct]

if there is no mind that designed and created the "spirit world " then who created the spirit world if not a ruling , designing spirit ?

[grandconjunct]

God must exist without , the inner god is useless.

[LimbaughIsCool]

You should read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity." It's the best argument for Christianity that I know of. If you disagree with Lewis, you've lost nothing and if you agree with him, you've gained enormously.

[BaronBoquet]

As far as where God is, think of the Holy Trinity. The Father dwells outside of us. He then sent Jesus, the Son, to dwell beside us(mankind). After the Son came the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.

[Homie0static]

I know I exist because I feel pain and pleasure. I also know that other people exist because being all alone would cause a person to despair. However if that was so and despair is truly all there is then how was I able to ever feel any happiness. It seems to me that nature can't just evolve some mechanism to make me feel joy. Also joy I believe causes a person to feel healthier where as despair causes eventual entropy. One causes builiding up and healing the other tears down and destroys.