Take a closer look at your Bible, Acts 4:28 says that everything that JESUS did was according to his will. Take a closer look at the Greek, it is ambiguous as to who worked God's will, but some English translations will say this. Better yet, look at the context of the raging nations, did they also do God's will? The council did God's will?
And in Isa 53:10, are you saying that God was HAPPY to crush Jesus, or perhaps it just means he allowed it.
@WCOFTheology You lie if you read the Bible in CONTEXT there is no way you would worship men . Also you mix fear with hatred Calvinist believe God hates his creation, you need to go back to those books that your idols write and read them again. I have made my point with you and again am done with you. I will not answer anymore. I also urge other Christians to avoid this CULT member . As you can see he talks in circles and believes a Religion that teaches God is an evil , hateful, sinner.,
@Soldier4Jesus7777 Good I hope you will not answer, in fact I hope you will never make another comment to anyone else again, until you learn the truth that Calvinism IS Christianity!
Which came first God's substance ( His Spirit ) or His Virtues, goodness, truth, mercy, love,etc. Moses asked to see God's glory He passed in Spirit declaring Virtues.Simultaneous self existing Life whom God is, in Spirit substance, and Virtue.God's self existing Life cannot be suspended in Spirit or Virtue; it is His Life. Therefore, God has ordained all things for no other entity can act free suspending God's Nature. Jesus said, I AM that I AM not eternal but perpetual magnified life.
@WCOFTheology I agree my GOD is awesome , he sent his SON for ME . Your God is not the same , your God hates his creation and causes them to create unthinkable evils. You can use your theology or religion on others. You can also put on the I just try to teach , you teach lies just like you God Satan and his in hell burning sun John Calvin. Stop trusting theses men of evil and lies and turn your eyes upon Jesus. Jesus warned us about your type in Matthew. Twist it as you do.
@Soldier4Jesus7777 The Bible alone is my axiom, take it or leave it. I do not teach God has decreed all evil b/c I love evil, I hate it like God does, I teach it b/c of the utter logical and Scriptural impossibility for anything to exist/take place, without God decreeing it. NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING can(has the ability) be OUTSIDE of GOD.
@Soldier4Jesus7777 BTW, the word awesome makes me sick the way it is used in today 's vernacular, it makes God sound so frivolous, I hope you mean it as it was intended.
Websters 1828 dict.
Awe
AWE, n. aw. [Gr. to be astonished.]
1. Fear mingled with admiration or reverence; reverential fear.
2. Fear; dread inspired by something great, or terrific.
AWE, v.t. To strike with fear and reverence; to influence by fear, terror or respect; as, his majesty awed them into silence.
Awww 1689 had his poor feelers hurt. Stop with all the intellectual theology . Religion is a man made barrier from the Truth. You only need Jesus , put you man made books down you arrogant fool and read God's word. Stop calling God a sinner ,not matter how you spin you words that is what you believe. God does not hate his creation, that is another lie you Religious people tell. If I had a choice to be a Calvinist , I would rather be nothing. Yes you are a waste of time because you heart is hard.
@Soldier4Jesus7777 No, my feelings are not hurt, I only point out that you reveal the wicked condition of your heart, b/c even though you think I believe heresy, you would rather call someone brother that hates and makes fun of, the imputed Righteousness of Christ, which is a FAR worse heresy than any heresy that I am purported to teach.
@WCOFTheology "hates and makes fun of, the imputed Righteousness of Christ, which is a FAR worse heresy than any heresy that I am purported to teach. "
There is no greater heresy than you teaching a person can 'give their wife the finger on the deathbead and Jesus will still accept you'.
You feel you can hate and make fun of people without sinning. You are so burnt that you even call it 'ministry' and 'serving God'.
Do you think Jesus gets a laugh out of your vids you posted?
@fractalfires1 Have you publicly retracted the statement you made in the screen shots I have posted in the videos you want taken down? Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing!
@WCOFTheology "Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing! "
You have not refuted anything I have ever said and some things I have said in sinful anger and retaliation you have provoked to make other videos. Your goal is to shame me until I change my views. Your videos which steal my name and image hold up a wicked caricature. This is not a MIRROR Jeff. You have no right to treat me this way from any motive.
@WCOFTheology "Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing! "
You have not refuted anything I have ever said and some things I have said in sinful anger and retaliation you have provoked to make other videos. Your goal is to shame me until I change my views. Your videos which steal my name and image hold up a wicked caricature. This is not a MIRROR Jeff. You have no right to treat me this way from any motive.
@fractalfires1 The videos you were not intended as a refutation, their intent was exposing if you still stand by your statements then you should have no problem with the videos being up. If you said thing you did not mean then publicly renounce it. You are wicked, that is why I exposed you. Do you think it would bother me if you made a video where I say all thing are decreed by God including all sin even Rape and murder of a little child for His Glory?
@Soldier4Jesus7777 I don't call God a sinner, God CANNOT sin! God is always GOOD. God is GOOD no matter what He does BECAUSE He does it. God has decreed ALL things from the most beautiful flower, to a grandmother hugging her grand kids, to the most wicked sins known on this world and in the heavens, AND HE IS GOOD!!!!! God decreeing wickedness CANNOT make Him evil, no more then Him decrees wonderful things CAN make Him good. GOD IS GOOD PERIOD!!!!
@ fractalfires1 Brother you are wasting your time with 1689. He like a Mormon, Moonie, JW, Adventists, or his brother in crime Catholics are blind , deaf , and dumb to the truth. He answers using circular reasoning and twist scripture so badly that it make God seem like a hateful sinner. I wonder why Calvinists profess to be Christians yet they believe in a very mean God. Either that or as I think Calvinists are being led by Satan. And yes 1689 , Calvinists and atheists have alot in common.
@Soldier4Jesus7777 If you call fractal brother their is little hope for you, he denies the imputed righteousness of Christ calling it "a bloody Jesus costume". You would rather call him a brother than me? You have serious problems.
@WCOFTheology "You would rather call him a brother than me? You have serious problems."
But at least I would have a brother. That matters to me more than all the problems in the world that you could effect from your diabolical little head.
@WCOFTheology "Oh, YOU WILL except that God is just in predestining people, I can promise you that,"
No I won't, and neither will you. I can prophesy that by the Holy Spirit of God by the authority of the Almighty God and Father of the LORD Jesus Christ whom you have uttered BLASPHEMIES against.
Since you pray to what you call the ultimate cause of sin ( you are your own ultimate cause)
you are a promise breaker. Your promises are full of empty hot wind like your life.
2 Thess.2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED. HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!? This verse alone destroys Calvins Limited Atonement.
@fractalfires1 Brother you are debating a person that has read so many books about what the writer believes the Bible says you will never ever get through to him. Calvinism is a fatalistic death cult that teaches zero love, freedom, or hope. In the 26 years I have dealt with Calvinists I have found that most were hardcore atheists and angry ones at that. Now that they have found deformed Religion they continue with the same arrogant hateful attitude they had as atheists.
:) it is great to know that atleast i disagree with this man. The dice are thrown in the lap, but every decision is from the Lord, great, but not really decisive to answer wether there is contingency or not.Good you throw the dice, but you can also not throw the dice.While i believe it is true that if one chooses to throw the dice, God can show things, i also believe that they can not throw the dice.But ok..on a different matter. i can'tagree that God's will is the effective cause for everything
@Sudhish86 lol this one is easy to refute. Besides God, whatever He is, there is nothing, where'd you get that from?
God is One, not God is everything.
and ofcourse there are things existing beside Him.
unless you want to go into that satan does not exist, or that God is satan.
so what people mean by: there's no other than God, means that He is matchless, no one can begin to come near to being Him. He is the Creator, all else is created.
@Rekenbij, good and evil are not substances, laws, or qualities. it is obvious that the ORIGINAL source of any UN-GODLY-NESS is inherently another will.
if there was nothing with a will or with its own desires, there would be nothing with the ABILITY to raise itself over God. and without that ability, nothing not of God can come to exist anywhere, whether in heart, mind, or in physical form.
so, the pursuit of another will is itself against God. nothing else is. but the will exists for love.
@Rekenbij, also, before anything was created, there was just God.
so, besides God, there is nothing inherently.
this is in reference to the nature of "good", since people mistakenly suppose "good" as you seem to.
"good" exists before man exists, since before man was God and His nature. so, your understanding of it is inherently a finite version of it. does law exist outside of a relationship of a lesser and greater thing? no. without the lesser, it is just the greater's will.
@Sudhish86 The Godhead is a triunity of the FAther Son and Holy Spirit co-existing eternally, one in substance but distinct in Persons. There is relationship, not of greater or less, but as equals. Love or unselfish benevolence reciprocates within the Trinity.
A law is just a description, but what does the law describe or publish...just that God is love. Awesome!
God ordained satan's fall(the first act of a will not of God)so that He may be worshipped by those who love Him. as Piper himself says in one of these videos, God is more glorified when we see we need Him more. this more can't come to exist unless satan draws it out of us.
so, yes, everything is ordained, since even the thing that would otherwise be against His will is ordained.
@Sudhish86 what this mean is, God is both evil and good, and He makes evil, just to make Him look better. (Since both good and evil come from God, which i really don't believe). If you would say every person is ordained with a certain power, true. If you say the way they use this power is ordained, untrue. since the power is in no case bad, but the way the power is used can often times be evil. and God cannot create evil. Since He hates evil, and love(d)s what He created.
@Rekenbij, no. you don't understand what "evil" truly is. whatever God desires is what must inherently be good. "good" canNOT be some sort of law-type thing, since, if it were supposed to be higher than God, that would be invalid, since there would be nothing for the law to refer to without God.
"evil" is simply the pursuit of another will. So, yes, God created "evil". But that is irrelevent, since it is necessary for love to come to exist.
@Sudhish86: i don't believe that evil is the pursuit of another will. i believe evil to be something which is not in accordance with God's nature or the nature of things which He created in the way He intended it to be. Another time i want to stress: evil does not come from God, i don't believe He created it. That which we call God, are things in God. Loyalty, truth, love, those are things that God is.
@Rekenbij, you make the point for me. anything that exists that is not in accordance to God's will DERIVES out of one's pursuit of the desires he has over submitted to God.
here is another way of describing sin: pursuing that which is vain, for everything that is not vain must inherently be of God.
God did not create evil in the sense that he created some "bad substance", for that is not inherently what evil is.
wow dust is empirical evidence for the existence of God I never knew that hohohahaohaoh and Calvinists are intelligent people.. didn't know that either
@Isaiah1v18 "You are REFUTED, pretending this verse doesnt exist & "rendered moot" is nothing more than OBSTINANCE & DENIAL."
Good reply to WCOF. Also when WCOF (Jeff Swayzee from Henderson NC) is refuted he will also simply ignore when you point out he has trapped himself and he will post that you should be ignored. Just as he ignores the suffering of a family who has lost a child due to rape and murder. He claims evil is God exercising justice against such people!
@fractalfires1 No I do not claim that God is exercising justice against a family by decreeing the death and rape of a child, God does not tell us what His purposes are, it could be to lead one or more of that family to Christ. But whatever God will get glory!
Joh 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
@WCOFTheology So now you changed your mind. Now you say God is not getting justice by having the family's girl raped and murdered, you say he did it to 'lead' (DRAG) one or more of that family to Christ, "whatever God will get the GLORY"
So a bereaved mother is going to glorify God for willing her daughter to be raped, mutilated and murdered?
You IMAGINE that one day their brains will fall out after hearing your explanation and they will GLORIFY GOD for his will!
You made an error in your conclusion again Jeff as usual. Refutation does not necessarily imply that you will cease from your raging angry blasphemies and that you will regard your views as having been refuted. You have been repeatedly refuted and you have been refuted in this post too. You can't win because you have no power.
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!?
This verse alone destroys Calvins Limited Atonement. There is NO rebuttal or "Mystery". GAME OVER
@Darwinsman exactly. According to Jeff Swayzee, self-proclaimed messiah of the Calvin religion, his god predestined every single detail of every event, including when a person robs a bank, commits adultery, etc. He calls it god's 'secret will'. John Calvin taught this. This creates more atheists than anything the devil has ever dreamed up. It is libel on God's character. It is repugnant to any with a conscience whether atheist or believer.
@fractalfires1 I've always said that if you treat the bible as being true, it doesn't make any sense, when you really read it.
But, if you start from the premise that god doesn't exist and the bible is just a collection of fictional myths and legends, then it makes perfect sense.
@Darwinsman you're talking about something totally different here friend. Treating the Bible as being true doesn't lead to Calvinism. We were discussing Calvinism. If you want to discuss God's existence, I'm bailing out of this before I lose a new friend. If you don't believe in God, I can not stop you. I would rather dis Calvinism for its abomination.
@fractalfires1 You may be talking about calvinism, but I wasn't. I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it is to take anything in the bible seriously.
However, I can understand why you would not wish to carry on defending the bible That would be an impossible task for anyone with a grain of integrity, after all, it isn't even historically correct, never mind all the supposed miraculous events.
@Darwinsman Question: How did the optic nerve and the eyeball independently and without any outside direction or influence, evolve to simultaneously produce vision in two eyes for every insect, reptile, fish, amphibian, bird, and mammal? You should try thinking independently instead of relying on the illogical conclusions of the haters of God, Christians, and the Bible. Darwin could never explain vision and neither can anyone else.
@MrTruthSword Your comments demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of how evolution by natural selection works. The function and evolution of the eye have been well understood for years. In fact, eyes have evolved a number of different ways.
When you understand at least the basics of evolution, then maybe I'll feel like explaining it to you, but until that unlikely event happens, I've better things to do with my time than waste it on a tight shut mind like yours.
@Darwinsman "However, I can understand why you would not wish to carry on defending the bible "
That is not the reason why I did not want to engage in a debate and you know I clarified already. I was hoping to make a friend, but I was badly mistaken about you. For one who boasts about integrity, you haven't got an ounce of it in your vile loins. It is a shame you wasted your mother's pains and my time.
@MrTruthSword " They believe salvation is through Grace and Faith by predestination"
2 Cor. 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
AND THEN we realize by way of Calvinism that it is GOD behind the power of Satan, who's only using him as his scapegoat for Gods DESIRE to blinding the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the Light.
@teoeo Predestination is of the utmost importance to a Calvinist since they don't believe they can ever be saved without it. They believe salvation is through Grace and Faith by predestination
"Therefore be IMITATORS of GOD, as beloved children." Eph.5:1
If I had to IMITATE the Deterministic god of calvinism, I would have to HATE the Vast Majority of mankind and take GOOD PLEASURE in their catastrophes sufferings & pain.
It would be PURE EVIL to IMITATE Calvins god.
Like Eliphaz in Job.42:7, Calvinists speak wrongly of God, thus store up WRATH for themselves.
@Isaiah1v18 "If I had to IMITATE the Deterministic god of calvinism, I would have to HATE the Vast Majority of mankind and take GOOD PLEASURE in their catastrophes sufferings & pain."
The importance ascribed to this problem of fatalism (All events Determined & Fixed) in the ancient world is evinced by the large number of authors who wrote treatises "De Fato",e.g. Chrysippus,Cicero,Plutarch,Alexander of Aphrodisias, and sundry Christian writers down to the Middle Ages.
Consistent Calvinism = Fatalism, with God being the Fater.
@Isaiah1v18 Swayzee got really quiet. It nailed him so he can't answer since he claims that when Jesus wept, that it wasn't God weeping. He forgets that God was born, died, and risen
@Isaiah1v18 To understand the utter stupidity of Calvinism, all you need do is read Psalms 37:12-13, “The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming”.
Calvinists may agree that God laughs at the wicked, but they also believe that God alone authored and predestine their wickedness. The God of the Bible laughs at the plans of the wicked while the God of the Calvinists is amused by His predestined wickedness
@MrTruthSword Calvin said, "God thus turning the unclean spirits hither and thither at his pleasure, employs them in exercising believers by warring against them"
Calvin Institutes Bk 1 ch 14
So Calvin's 'god' is pleased at warring against believers. WCOF claims that Lucifer could not sin without God having irresistibly made Lucifer do it.
@MrTruthSword Though Calvinists claim that they believe their god created the universe, time, right and wrong, etc, their Calvinism contradicts the Bible. If their god is watching eternally every second that has, is, or will occur, then there is no unfolding of anything. He is drooling unable to take his eyes off the screen and unable to change the program. A nurse should wheel him back to his room and check his pulse, lol.
@MrTruthSword "If everything according to Calvinism has been predetermined and nothing can be changed, why does Piper waste his time opening his mouth and making those oddball melodramatic faces and animated hand gestures to try to prove his point?"
A consistent Calvinists would say, "Those are the 'Means' by which ALL THINGS are Predetermined/Decreed & Fated."
Though "Fated" is not a word they like to us because it associates their consistency with 'Fatalism'.
@Isaiah1v18 yes, Aug redefines it b/c Cicero is irrefutable. "“But that all things come to pass by fate, we do not say; ... for we demonstrate that the name of fate, as it is wont to be used by those who speak of fate, meaning thereby the position of the stars ... is an unmeaning word, for astrology itself is a delusion.” The City of God, "If anyone calls the influence or the power of God by the name of Fate, let him keep his opinion, but mend his speech." Word games even then!
@fractalfires1 Augustine forced the use of the term fate from its common use vs.the Early Fathers use of it and he CLAIMED that 'fate' had ONLY to do with astrology. He says fate doesn't exist because astrology is a delusion. So when anyone uses the term fate, he can get all Jeffy and correct them saying he doesn't teach that men's actions are their fate.
The Ante-Nicene and COMMON use of the term refers to a 'fixed future'. Aug begins to create insider jargon like Mani.
If everything according to Calvinism has been predetermined and nothing can be changed, why does Piper waste his time opening his mouth and making those oddball melodramatic faces and animated hand gestures to try to prove his point? If everything is fixed and nothing can be changed then what’s his point in even speaking? What does he hope to accomplish with his prayers, other than trying to sound holy and pompous, if his prayers can’t change that which he believes is absolutely unchangeable?
@MrTruthSword Your question pre-supposes your conclusion. You are essentially asking why he CHOOSES to do those things, but he doesn't believe he has that choice in the first place, so your question is moot.
If anyone agrees with John Piper's opinion about God predetermining the constant movement and position of every dust particle, why would they then have any reason to be thankful for anything other than the mechanics of predestination itself? Anyone who does accept Piper’s position ultimately places their faith in the unfolding of predestined events and not in a dynamic God who lovingly watches over them as a father who actively cares about them.
@MrTruthSword amen, Ezekiel 6:9 ' because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a-whoring after their idols: '
to ppl who write negative comments on his videos....if u dont believe in god and think Christians are dumb why are you looking up "John Piper" on Youtube and watching his videos??? im confused....
Jesus chose to die for us. He had the choice. God sent his son to die for us knowing the choices of man that would lead to the perfect point for Christ to enter history.
Why would Jesus have prayed this prayer in Gethsemane if everything was predetermined?
Matt 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Weird. I was just watching a video where he was saying abortion is bad and we shouldn't kill babies. Yet in this one he's basically contradicting that one by saying abortion is predetermined by God.
Wish Christians would take time to use their brains.
@SaintsnotSinners Agreed. He claims abortion is bad, yet Piper holds that God has predetermined before many babies are born that their soul purpose in life is to die and go to hell. One of these Calvinists claimed that if a baby dies it is proof it is one of the elect who goes to heaven and that no baby predestined for hell can die as an infant. The problem is that if all babies die as babies, then none can go to hell. So which is better, to kill babies for heaven or...
Calvinism is a DUMB doctrine, full stop. Even worse, it is a BLASPHEMOUS doctrine. It maligns God and his cross. "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Jas 1:13-15)
@lessingtom "Calvinism is a DUMB doctrine" Amen. They say God is glorified in showing mercy (when he planned their sin to begin with) and is glorified in showing justice in meting out eternal torment (again when he planned both their sin and their torment before they were born). How is either mercy or justice glorified if their god is the the architect for their sin in the first place. There's an elephant under the rug and they cry 'ad hominem' to distract from it.
All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
this blabber mouth just wants to contro everyone, so he gets the money. i dont belive in any sky-god that controls every dust particle and i aint crazy. IMO, your the kook and your driving more and more innocents to insanity with all this mumbo-jumbo
Watched a ´couple of Pipers videos, and it's just sad to see a human brain reduced to this level. There's no thought left. There's only "The Bible says"...
Acts 20:28-30 Be on guard for yourselves... I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you... & men will rise up from YOUR OWN NUMBER with DEVIANT DOCTRINES to lure the disciples into following them, so be ALERT."
2 Tim. 2:17-18 "...their talk will spread like gangrene... men who have gone astray from the truth... & they overthrown the faith of some..."
"This question nearly drove me to mental instability and suicide" -murdan13
This question nearly drove me to mental instability and suicide- I'm not lying. The way to go about is to focus on Christ and how we as sinners NEED Him and His perfect sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
hi Puppypie, seriously you think this view is erroneous? That God is God and is in complete control of His creation? Maybe you believe that man is God and determines all things? Please read Paul's letters and look up the meaning for words such as election, predestined. Also what did Jesus mean when He said no-one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him. Who hardened Pharoah's heart? the answer is 1) God and 2) Pharaoh. let the pot be silent before the one who has mercy. God Bless, Stephen
@DefrostedCalvinist "That God is God and is in complete control of His creation?"
So everything is happening exactly as God wants it including mutilation, murder, pedophilia, false charges, adultery, beastiality, fornication?
God controls the physical laws of the universe, but he is also a moral governor with moral laws. You have confused these into just physical gov't. The sight of the miracles hardened pharaoh who was not willing to submit to God. Same with pharisees
@DefrostedCalvinist & @puppypies Defrost, you said "Also what did Jesus mean when He said no-one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him."
He also said that if he be lifted up he will DRAW all men to himself.
Draw or DRAG? You feel the Holy Spirit CANNOT be resisted in his work of conviction of sin to bring the sinner to a place of yielding. However, Stephen said in Acts 'ye do always RESIST the Holy Spirit'.
Jeremiah says God continually reached out to Judah.
@DefrostedCalvinist When Stephen said "ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye," what was the Holy Spirit attempting to do with these men whom Stephen blamed?
psst, let me give you a hint: You DON'T have free will... you will do what you want to do and without God's grace, what you want to do is sin and you will not repent. You can't fly like superman at will, you are mortal, you are limited in your freedom at all times. God is the only being in the universe who is unlimited in his freedom. You have will, but it is creaturely will because you are a created thing.
I am a straight up and down believer in Jesus and I don't believe at all that this is true.
It's really difficult to hear important pastors like this bro propagating this viewpoint, which I feel is erroneous. What he is saying essentially is that I have no free will, and that simply isn't true; and I think it makes everything else he says untrue in this video. I believe there is more to the story than this.
@puppypies "It's really difficult to hear important pastors like this bro propagating this viewpoint, which I feel is erroneous. "
Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
JER 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
So then, God Causally Determines "from the foundation of the world" that the wicked give glory, worship & praise to False idols instead of to God, when God Himself declares, "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols"?
If you are correct, God Causally Determines to Blaspheme Himself by way of the wicked, cancelling out Isaiah 42:8.
Your philosophy fails in the Light of the Scriptures.
So then, God Causally Determines "from the foundation of the world" that the wicked give glory, worship & praise to False idols instead of to God, when God Himself declares, "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols"?"
Very good point. They are giving glory, praise and worship to False idols. Yet, Calvinists insist that God ultimately is causing them to do this
@Isaiah1v18 Calvinists don’t believe God is a God who desires to handle ever changing dynamics but that He is a God who decided to long ago predestine everything so He could then retire and just sit back and watch all of predestined eternity unfold.
@Isaiah1v18 Calvinism being an utterly nonsensical deterministic gnostic philosophy, fly’s in the face of Biblical truth, logic, and all that is holy and righteous. Calvinists are adamant about God’s will, without question, always being accomplished on earth. But Jesus said we should pray for God’s will to be done on earth, as His will is being done in heaven. Why would Christ have instructed us to pray to that end? The simple logical truth is that God’s will is not always being done on earth.
@Isaiah1v18 God in decreeing that man worshiping false gods disobeying His commands is actually giving Glory to Himself in their destruction. God gets the Glory no matter what He has decreed man to do, He will glorify Himself in their salvation or He will glorify Himself in their destruction. So now this dilemma you think you have trapped us with is rendered moot.
@WCOFTheology "He will glorify Himself in their salvation or He will glorify Himself in their destruction." How?
If people can not accept now that God is just by predestining people to hell before they are born, then how are they supposed to change their mind in eternity? Unless they are brainwashed like you, they can't wrap their mind around your slippery definitions of justice and goodness. Such a pig as your god will be held in eternal contempt, rather than glorified.
@fractalfires1 Oh, YOU WILL except that God is just in predestining people, I can promise you that, and it does not matter one wit to God if you seethe and spit your hate at Him in hell for all eternity. See God does not need your approval of His actions, He is the Potter and He can make you just the way He wants. You will hold Him in contempt for all eternity, unless God changes your mind, but I will be praising His Holy Name for all of eternity!
@Isaiah1v18 Yes. Ultimately God is the Author of Everything (Good,Evil). Yes the Problem is Solved. Now would you please answer my question: Why doesnot an All Powerful,All loving God end the Problem of Evil once for all, Why all this ? Is he so weak? Is he really ALL Powerful?
@jimmycooldown ISA 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Humans have free-will. It's what differentiates us from any other animals. Reality is independant of conciousness. If reality wasn't independant of conciousness there would be no reality. Reality would be what people or God,... say. But reality exists. Trying to contradicte this law implies that you use it (bringing real proof that reality doesn't exist is a contradiction). Since humans have free-will and reality is independant of any conciousness, you must go by the law of causality.
@Isaiah1v18 Yes. Ultimately God is the Author of Everything (Good,Evil). Yes the Problem is Solved. Now would you please answer my question: Why does an All Powerful God end the Problem of Evil once for all, Why all this drama ? Is he so weak? Is he really ALL Powerful?
@Isaiah1v18 Hi, I assume you have read God&Evil: the problem solved by Gordon Clark.
I would like to know your thoughts on Romans 9? Doctrine of Predestination. Do you think its fair ? Why doesn't God save everyone and not few? How do you save God from this charge?
@Isaiah1v18 WCOF continually claims "God has no conscience" "God is NOT a moral agent"
Yet, he cannot even cite one of his calvinistic guru ascended masters to support it.
In fact, both Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin state the EXACT OPPOSITE.
According to St. Irenaeus just after the apostles, the Marcionites sought to do away with the 'judicial faculty' in God, rendering right and wrong 'mere opinion'.
@Isaiah1v18 Yes, Israel's sin was not predestined. Jer 2:17 Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, when he led thee by the way?
21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? 30 In VAIN have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.
@Isaiah1v18 false prophets? are you kidding me.... i dont get people like you. How about you deal with your own sin first before throwing out such heinous accusation, or tell someone about the gospel of Jesus. Really. So over these theological internet warriors who present superficial arguments out of a heart of pride. Come talk theology after you applied what you know to how to live ! Otherwise be quite.
You're not up to speed. Isaiah1v18 was being restrained by calling WCOF just a false prophet. He's been exposed as an imposter posing as a believer - trying to lead others into destruction thru demonic docrtrines. Rom5:12 says sin entered the world thru Adam but WCOF says GOD desired it to happen - he contradicts 1Cor10:13 & claims God not only allowed but purposed for Adam to be tempted beyond his ability to resist & to fall into sin.
"For this commandment (of Faith according to Paul- Rom.10) that I command you today is NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you, neither is it far off...
v19
...I have set before you LIFE & DEATH, blessing and curse. Therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that you and your offspring may live,
If "choices" do NOT exist, Gods "Commandments" are either WORTHLESS or they are just an EXCUSE to Justify HIMSELF to Causally SAVING or DAMNING his creation.
He will do whatever He wants! Although He commands, for conscience's sake, He has pre-established the paths of of everyone, some to be made for dishonourable purposes, and some for honorable purposes. Who are you to question the Potter's authority over His clay?
@ms0651 "He will do whatever He wants! " Are you saying God might want to do something sinful according to his word? What is it you are claiming God wants? Are you saying that God is not a moral agent and has no conscience or wisdom to guide what he WILL DO? It sounds like you are asserting that God's will is determined solely by his WANTS. Can you please elaborate?
@ms0651 "Who are you to question the Potter's authority over His clay?"
I think you grossly misinterpret Paul's argument to make it agree with theological fatalism.
If such a being exists that creates some people to be tormented for eternity and others are fated by him to go to heaven (before they are born even) then in eternity, their consciences will forever condemn such a monster. This will not end with this being's glory, but rather INFAMY for eternity if such a fiction were true.
@ms0651 "He will do whatever He wants! " We know God in an UNcreated being, that is, he has no beginning he always was. Are you saying that if God wanted to he could will himself to have had a beginning so that he would no longer be an uncreated being? If so, this would imply that God is not immutable. The question is, are there some things God CANNOT want or OUGHT not want?
@jjajpro "How is this view wrong and unbiblical?"
Suppose Determinism is valid-- a Sinless Adam & Eve could ONLY do what God Had already CAUSALLY PREDESTINED & DETERMINED to come to pass-- God then MUST have purposed in His MIND & HEART from the foundation of the World, to have created & FATED Adam & Eve to BURN FOREVER with no alternate end-result, having no ability to alter their Fate, for "His GOOD PLEASURE" to "GLORIFY HIMSELF".
If Determinism is valid, This IS the only logical conclusion.
@Isaiah1v18 I view it thusly: We have free will. God, however, knows all that will take place. He does not control someone to do something; they choose, but knowing their decision beforehand, God's will is carried out. He did not fate Adam and Eve; they chose their own fate. Knowing the choices that would be made, he set up ways to save humanity. He does not determine our choices, but weaves His plan through them. That's the best I can explain it at this length. What is your opinion on this?
@CrimKazanawa Your view of omniscience assumes the future is already written.
I hold to omniscience, but I do not hold that the future is already written. God intervenes in history and responds to man's sin and repentance accordingly. This is no deficiency of knowledge in God. The Bible shows God as having expectations that were disappointed given all he has done to reach Israel, etc. Even with Cain. God saw what would happen IF Cain did not change his course.
@fractalfires1 You know, I should have seen that flaw in my logic when I proofread. I thank you for your input. I suppose that is what happens when one acts with haste.
Lets just assume John Piper is correct & Determinism is valid--everything has already been decreed & determined.
If all is settled & fixed as all things have been PREDETERMINED, then there is NO Judgement Day, there is no judging of every man "according to HIS WORKS", but rather, a Day of Execution, seeing it is only to EXECUTE what GOD long ago already DETERMINED to come to pass.
@Isaiah1v18 curious. How is this view wrong and unbiblical. No fights here! just a little discussion. Do you think God knows everything? the future? Did he know that men would fall into sin before He created them? Did he know that he would crucify Jesus for the domino Adam knocked over before He created the world? Does He not know already the ones He will judge, before He judges? This is probably too many questions at once, sorry...
@Isaiah1v18 - Why would you ever conclude so foolishly? You have a habit of making logical fallacies; you say, "it this is true, then it can only mean that" Sorry, that is not logical and nothing more than a demonstration of your ignorance of the Word of God, and what He has clearly revealed. You don't want to hear that though, do you? You are content to mock and scoff rather than sincerly ask why we have come to a different conclusion. I will be posting some videos soon. Take a look.
@fractalfires1 Hi, I assume you have read God&Evil: the problem solved by Gordon Clark.
I would like to know your thoughts on Romans 9? Doctrine of Predestination. Do you think its fair ? Why doesn't God save everyone and not few? If God is really ALL Loving the why doesn't he save ALL?How do you save God from this charge?
It's amazing how there are massive discussion on videos like these; if people feel he need to keep posting comments against this video (and others alike) just shows that they are not comfortable with their beliefs, and feel the need to keep talking against it to make themselves feel better.
@50LightSabersInAPack I'm wondering what makes you so so uncomfortable with your beliefs that you feel compelled to vent so strongly here - ever hear of projection?
LOL, it might just be because you came here projecting on others your own obvious confusion & lack of trust in your own beliefs! Those who routinely post biblical refutations of Calvinism's unbiblical abominations aren't the least bit uncomfortable with their own beliefs but desire that others don't stumble into Calvin's dark pit or if they already have, to show them the truth of God's word so they'll be able to escape.
If God predestined everything ,even he put a thought or made or inspire, initiate... what ever you say he did , to make one of the soldiers be involved in the killing of Jesus.And then require from the same soldier to repent for what he did in order to be saved ? In some way to apologize for following God's plan for the salvation of the whole world ?
something is wrong in this concept in the very root
@krisanist There's nothing inconsistent. God reserrves the sovereign right to use evil for His own good purposes, such as in the case of Joseph or the crucifixion, & then to call the participants to repent later. Joseph noted this & forgave his brothers & Jesus forgave all those involved in His crucifixion from the cross. In all such cases, those involved are held accountable only at the point the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin & calls them to repent - not for the time they were unrestrained.
@JackMWolfe See, when we speak about "God use/d that" is a whole other issue .
Cause we can start speaking of examples as : "well, God aloud for person X to be raped , so he can use that for good , to teach her how to trust him "
We can come up with all kind of example and discuss if God aloud something or initiate or whatever, and In the end of the day, we can come with a reasonable answer , and still miss the character of God.
Take a closer look at your Bible, Acts 4:28 says that everything that JESUS did was according to his will. Take a closer look at the Greek, it is ambiguous as to who worked God's will, but some English translations will say this. Better yet, look at the context of the raging nations, did they also do God's will? The council did God's will?
And in Isa 53:10, are you saying that God was HAPPY to crush Jesus, or perhaps it just means he allowed it.
Sorry, I was predestined to write this anyway.
eichelmanii 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology You lie if you read the Bible in CONTEXT there is no way you would worship men . Also you mix fear with hatred Calvinist believe God hates his creation, you need to go back to those books that your idols write and read them again. I have made my point with you and again am done with you. I will not answer anymore. I also urge other Christians to avoid this CULT member . As you can see he talks in circles and believes a Religion that teaches God is an evil , hateful, sinner.,
Soldier4Jesus7777 1 week ago
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@Soldier4Jesus7777 "The Bible alone is my axiom," Jeffster's intepretation of the Bible is axiomatic on his interpretation.
fractalfires1 6 days ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 Good I hope you will not answer, in fact I hope you will never make another comment to anyone else again, until you learn the truth that Calvinism IS Christianity!
WCOFTheology 6 days ago
@WCOFTheology Christianity is Christanity,its not Calvinism.
MrUrosSrb 4 days ago
@MrUrosSrb I did not say the Christianity is Calvinism, I said, Calvinism is Christianity, there is a difference!
WCOFTheology 4 days ago
Which came first God's substance ( His Spirit ) or His Virtues, goodness, truth, mercy, love,etc. Moses asked to see God's glory He passed in Spirit declaring Virtues.Simultaneous self existing Life whom God is, in Spirit substance, and Virtue.God's self existing Life cannot be suspended in Spirit or Virtue; it is His Life. Therefore, God has ordained all things for no other entity can act free suspending God's Nature. Jesus said, I AM that I AM not eternal but perpetual magnified life.
polopowers1 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology I agree my GOD is awesome , he sent his SON for ME . Your God is not the same , your God hates his creation and causes them to create unthinkable evils. You can use your theology or religion on others. You can also put on the I just try to teach , you teach lies just like you God Satan and his in hell burning sun John Calvin. Stop trusting theses men of evil and lies and turn your eyes upon Jesus. Jesus warned us about your type in Matthew. Twist it as you do.
Soldier4Jesus7777 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 The Bible alone is my axiom, take it or leave it. I do not teach God has decreed all evil b/c I love evil, I hate it like God does, I teach it b/c of the utter logical and Scriptural impossibility for anything to exist/take place, without God decreeing it. NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING can(has the ability) be OUTSIDE of GOD.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 BTW, the word awesome makes me sick the way it is used in today 's vernacular, it makes God sound so frivolous, I hope you mean it as it was intended.
Websters 1828 dict.
Awe
AWE, n. aw. [Gr. to be astonished.]
1. Fear mingled with admiration or reverence; reverential fear.
2. Fear; dread inspired by something great, or terrific.
AWE, v.t. To strike with fear and reverence; to influence by fear, terror or respect; as, his majesty awed them into silence.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
Awww 1689 had his poor feelers hurt. Stop with all the intellectual theology . Religion is a man made barrier from the Truth. You only need Jesus , put you man made books down you arrogant fool and read God's word. Stop calling God a sinner ,not matter how you spin you words that is what you believe. God does not hate his creation, that is another lie you Religious people tell. If I had a choice to be a Calvinist , I would rather be nothing. Yes you are a waste of time because you heart is hard.
Soldier4Jesus7777 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 No, my feelings are not hurt, I only point out that you reveal the wicked condition of your heart, b/c even though you think I believe heresy, you would rather call someone brother that hates and makes fun of, the imputed Righteousness of Christ, which is a FAR worse heresy than any heresy that I am purported to teach.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology "hates and makes fun of, the imputed Righteousness of Christ, which is a FAR worse heresy than any heresy that I am purported to teach. "
There is no greater heresy than you teaching a person can 'give their wife the finger on the deathbead and Jesus will still accept you'.
You feel you can hate and make fun of people without sinning. You are so burnt that you even call it 'ministry' and 'serving God'.
Do you think Jesus gets a laugh out of your vids you posted?
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@fractalfires1 Have you publicly retracted the statement you made in the screen shots I have posted in the videos you want taken down? Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing!
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology "Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing! "
You have not refuted anything I have ever said and some things I have said in sinful anger and retaliation you have provoked to make other videos. Your goal is to shame me until I change my views. Your videos which steal my name and image hold up a wicked caricature. This is not a MIRROR Jeff. You have no right to treat me this way from any motive.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology "Until you retract your statements your statements still stand in need of exposing! "
You have not refuted anything I have ever said and some things I have said in sinful anger and retaliation you have provoked to make other videos. Your goal is to shame me until I change my views. Your videos which steal my name and image hold up a wicked caricature. This is not a MIRROR Jeff. You have no right to treat me this way from any motive.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@fractalfires1 The videos you were not intended as a refutation, their intent was exposing if you still stand by your statements then you should have no problem with the videos being up. If you said thing you did not mean then publicly renounce it. You are wicked, that is why I exposed you. Do you think it would bother me if you made a video where I say all thing are decreed by God including all sin even Rape and murder of a little child for His Glory?
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 I don't call God a sinner, God CANNOT sin! God is always GOOD. God is GOOD no matter what He does BECAUSE He does it. God has decreed ALL things from the most beautiful flower, to a grandmother hugging her grand kids, to the most wicked sins known on this world and in the heavens, AND HE IS GOOD!!!!! God decreeing wickedness CANNOT make Him evil, no more then Him decrees wonderful things CAN make Him good. GOD IS GOOD PERIOD!!!!
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@ fractalfires1 Brother you are wasting your time with 1689. He like a Mormon, Moonie, JW, Adventists, or his brother in crime Catholics are blind , deaf , and dumb to the truth. He answers using circular reasoning and twist scripture so badly that it make God seem like a hateful sinner. I wonder why Calvinists profess to be Christians yet they believe in a very mean God. Either that or as I think Calvinists are being led by Satan. And yes 1689 , Calvinists and atheists have alot in common.
Soldier4Jesus7777 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 If you call fractal brother their is little hope for you, he denies the imputed righteousness of Christ calling it "a bloody Jesus costume". You would rather call him a brother than me? You have serious problems.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology "You would rather call him a brother than me? You have serious problems."
But at least I would have a brother. That matters to me more than all the problems in the world that you could effect from your diabolical little head.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@fractalfires1 Good, lock arms with you brother and both of you will march into hell together.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
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fractalfires1 1 week ago
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fractalfires1 1 week ago
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fractalfires1 1 week ago
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@WCOFTheology "Oh, YOU WILL except that God is just in predestining people, I can promise you that,"
No I won't, and neither will you. I can prophesy that by the Holy Spirit of God by the authority of the Almighty God and Father of the LORD Jesus Christ whom you have uttered BLASPHEMIES against.
Since you pray to what you call the ultimate cause of sin ( you are your own ultimate cause)
you are a promise breaker. Your promises are full of empty hot wind like your life.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@wcof "God is glorified in their destruction"
Strawman!
2 Thess.2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED. HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!? This verse alone destroys Calvins Limited Atonement.
There is NO rebuttal or "Mystery".
GAME OVER
Isaiah1v18 1 week ago
@fractalfires1 Brother you are debating a person that has read so many books about what the writer believes the Bible says you will never ever get through to him. Calvinism is a fatalistic death cult that teaches zero love, freedom, or hope. In the 26 years I have dealt with Calvinists I have found that most were hardcore atheists and angry ones at that. Now that they have found deformed Religion they continue with the same arrogant hateful attitude they had as atheists.
Soldier4Jesus7777 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 yes, it is the same attitude that atheists have. Monsters they be.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@Soldier4Jesus7777 Calvinist/atheist? Yeah, whatever!
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
:) it is great to know that atleast i disagree with this man. The dice are thrown in the lap, but every decision is from the Lord, great, but not really decisive to answer wether there is contingency or not.Good you throw the dice, but you can also not throw the dice.While i believe it is true that if one chooses to throw the dice, God can show things, i also believe that they can not throw the dice.But ok..on a different matter. i can'tagree that God's will is the effective cause for everything
Rekenbij 1 week ago
@Rekenbij, then you're obviously wrong. Besides God, WHATEVER He is, there is nothing. other things only come to exist when He desires it to.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86 lol this one is easy to refute. Besides God, whatever He is, there is nothing, where'd you get that from?
God is One, not God is everything.
and ofcourse there are things existing beside Him.
unless you want to go into that satan does not exist, or that God is satan.
so what people mean by: there's no other than God, means that He is matchless, no one can begin to come near to being Him. He is the Creator, all else is created.
Rekenbij 1 week ago
@Rekenbij, good and evil are not substances, laws, or qualities. it is obvious that the ORIGINAL source of any UN-GODLY-NESS is inherently another will.
if there was nothing with a will or with its own desires, there would be nothing with the ABILITY to raise itself over God. and without that ability, nothing not of God can come to exist anywhere, whether in heart, mind, or in physical form.
so, the pursuit of another will is itself against God. nothing else is. but the will exists for love.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Rekenbij, also, before anything was created, there was just God.
so, besides God, there is nothing inherently.
this is in reference to the nature of "good", since people mistakenly suppose "good" as you seem to.
"good" exists before man exists, since before man was God and His nature. so, your understanding of it is inherently a finite version of it. does law exist outside of a relationship of a lesser and greater thing? no. without the lesser, it is just the greater's will.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86 The Godhead is a triunity of the FAther Son and Holy Spirit co-existing eternally, one in substance but distinct in Persons. There is relationship, not of greater or less, but as equals. Love or unselfish benevolence reciprocates within the Trinity.
A law is just a description, but what does the law describe or publish...just that God is love. Awesome!
fractalfires1 6 days ago
@fractalfires1, what is your point?
Sudhish86 5 days ago
God ordained satan's fall(the first act of a will not of God)so that He may be worshipped by those who love Him. as Piper himself says in one of these videos, God is more glorified when we see we need Him more. this more can't come to exist unless satan draws it out of us.
so, yes, everything is ordained, since even the thing that would otherwise be against His will is ordained.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86 what this mean is, God is both evil and good, and He makes evil, just to make Him look better. (Since both good and evil come from God, which i really don't believe). If you would say every person is ordained with a certain power, true. If you say the way they use this power is ordained, untrue. since the power is in no case bad, but the way the power is used can often times be evil. and God cannot create evil. Since He hates evil, and love(d)s what He created.
Rekenbij 1 week ago
@Rekenbij, no. you don't understand what "evil" truly is. whatever God desires is what must inherently be good. "good" canNOT be some sort of law-type thing, since, if it were supposed to be higher than God, that would be invalid, since there would be nothing for the law to refer to without God.
"evil" is simply the pursuit of another will. So, yes, God created "evil". But that is irrelevent, since it is necessary for love to come to exist.
Sudhish86 1 week ago
@Sudhish86: i don't believe that evil is the pursuit of another will. i believe evil to be something which is not in accordance with God's nature or the nature of things which He created in the way He intended it to be. Another time i want to stress: evil does not come from God, i don't believe He created it. That which we call God, are things in God. Loyalty, truth, love, those are things that God is.
if you say God created evil.
How did God create evil then according to you?
Rekenbij 1 week ago
@Rekenbij, you make the point for me. anything that exists that is not in accordance to God's will DERIVES out of one's pursuit of the desires he has over submitted to God.
here is another way of describing sin: pursuing that which is vain, for everything that is not vain must inherently be of God.
God did not create evil in the sense that he created some "bad substance", for that is not inherently what evil is.
continue....
Sudhish86 1 week ago
wow dust is empirical evidence for the existence of God I never knew that hohohahaohaoh and Calvinists are intelligent people.. didn't know that either
p.s.
can a tell you a secret.. there is no God
ProdigalSon222 1 week ago
@wcof "So now this dilemma you think you have trapped us with is rendered moot"
Wrong. You live in DENIAL to such an extent, you are unable to comprehend the contradictions of your system when aligned with the Word of God.
Regarding 2 Thess.2:9-10, HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!?
You are REFUTED, pretending this verse doesnt exist & "rendered moot" is nothing more than OBSTINANCE & DENIAL.
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 "You are REFUTED, pretending this verse doesnt exist & "rendered moot" is nothing more than OBSTINANCE & DENIAL."
Good reply to WCOF. Also when WCOF (Jeff Swayzee from Henderson NC) is refuted he will also simply ignore when you point out he has trapped himself and he will post that you should be ignored. Just as he ignores the suffering of a family who has lost a child due to rape and murder. He claims evil is God exercising justice against such people!
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1 No I do not claim that God is exercising justice against a family by decreeing the death and rape of a child, God does not tell us what His purposes are, it could be to lead one or more of that family to Christ. But whatever God will get glory!
Joh 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology So now you changed your mind. Now you say God is not getting justice by having the family's girl raped and murdered, you say he did it to 'lead' (DRAG) one or more of that family to Christ, "whatever God will get the GLORY"
So a bereaved mother is going to glorify God for willing her daughter to be raped, mutilated and murdered?
You IMAGINE that one day their brains will fall out after hearing your explanation and they will GLORIFY GOD for his will!
Sure Cuckoo
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@Isaiah1v18 If Christ never died for them in 2 Thess.2:9-10 then God is glorifying Himself in their destruction, you have refuted nothing!
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
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@WCOFTheology "you have refuted nothing!"
You made an error in your conclusion again Jeff as usual. Refutation does not necessarily imply that you will cease from your raging angry blasphemies and that you will regard your views as having been refuted. You have been repeatedly refuted and you have been refuted in this post too. You can't win because you have no power.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@MrTruthSword 2 Thess.2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!?
This verse alone destroys Calvins Limited Atonement. There is NO rebuttal or "Mystery". GAME OVER
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
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Some people want young white females to mix with non-white males.
I made a one-minute video highlighting a very small sample of race-mixing advertisements.
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If you click on my name “awhitesoul2012” highlighted in blue below this comment, you can watch my video.
Thanks.
awhitesoul2012 2 weeks ago
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@Calvinists "So, if Christ died for all, and all are not saved, did He fail?"
By fail, do you mean that God did a work to bring about salvation and that this effort was in vain?
Jer 2:30 30 In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction:
You are a Calvinist and you will go to hell.
God also sent prophets to save Israel and many did not repent. Was that God's failure or their failure to comply with the condition for pardon?
You twist Scripture
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
So, God predetermined every detail in the universe, including sin? So much for free will.
That means I am an atheist because it is god's will.
Darwinsman 2 weeks ago
@Darwinsman exactly. According to Jeff Swayzee, self-proclaimed messiah of the Calvin religion, his god predestined every single detail of every event, including when a person robs a bank, commits adultery, etc. He calls it god's 'secret will'. John Calvin taught this. This creates more atheists than anything the devil has ever dreamed up. It is libel on God's character. It is repugnant to any with a conscience whether atheist or believer.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@Darwinsman I like this statement that an atheist actually brought up about the temptation in the garden:
"That would be pointless, a test is to determine an outcome, if he's all knowing he already knows it."
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1 I've always said that if you treat the bible as being true, it doesn't make any sense, when you really read it.
But, if you start from the premise that god doesn't exist and the bible is just a collection of fictional myths and legends, then it makes perfect sense.
Darwinsman 2 weeks ago
@Darwinsman you're talking about something totally different here friend. Treating the Bible as being true doesn't lead to Calvinism. We were discussing Calvinism. If you want to discuss God's existence, I'm bailing out of this before I lose a new friend. If you don't believe in God, I can not stop you. I would rather dis Calvinism for its abomination.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1 You may be talking about calvinism, but I wasn't. I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it is to take anything in the bible seriously.
However, I can understand why you would not wish to carry on defending the bible That would be an impossible task for anyone with a grain of integrity, after all, it isn't even historically correct, never mind all the supposed miraculous events.
Darwinsman 2 weeks ago
@Darwinsman Question: How did the optic nerve and the eyeball independently and without any outside direction or influence, evolve to simultaneously produce vision in two eyes for every insect, reptile, fish, amphibian, bird, and mammal? You should try thinking independently instead of relying on the illogical conclusions of the haters of God, Christians, and the Bible. Darwin could never explain vision and neither can anyone else.
Also, what is the age and origin of gravity?
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword Your comments demonstrate your complete and utter ignorance of how evolution by natural selection works. The function and evolution of the eye have been well understood for years. In fact, eyes have evolved a number of different ways.
When you understand at least the basics of evolution, then maybe I'll feel like explaining it to you, but until that unlikely event happens, I've better things to do with my time than waste it on a tight shut mind like yours.
Darwinsman 2 weeks ago
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@Darwinsman "However, I can understand why you would not wish to carry on defending the bible "
That is not the reason why I did not want to engage in a debate and you know I clarified already. I was hoping to make a friend, but I was badly mistaken about you. For one who boasts about integrity, you haven't got an ounce of it in your vile loins. It is a shame you wasted your mother's pains and my time.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword " They believe salvation is through Grace and Faith by predestination"
2 Cor. 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
AND THEN we realize by way of Calvinism that it is GOD behind the power of Satan, who's only using him as his scapegoat for Gods DESIRE to blinding the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the Light.
Blasphemy!
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago 2
@teoeo Predestination is of the utmost importance to a Calvinist since they don't believe they can ever be saved without it. They believe salvation is through Grace and Faith by predestination
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1
"Therefore be IMITATORS of GOD, as beloved children." Eph.5:1
If I had to IMITATE the Deterministic god of calvinism, I would have to HATE the Vast Majority of mankind and take GOOD PLEASURE in their catastrophes sufferings & pain.
It would be PURE EVIL to IMITATE Calvins god.
Like Eliphaz in Job.42:7, Calvinists speak wrongly of God, thus store up WRATH for themselves.
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
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@Isaiah1v18 "If I had to IMITATE the Deterministic god of calvinism, I would have to HATE the Vast Majority of mankind and take GOOD PLEASURE in their catastrophes sufferings & pain."
That would make such a person a Calvinist.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Swiss cheeze is like Geneva heresy: its full of holes.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1
The importance ascribed to this problem of fatalism (All events Determined & Fixed) in the ancient world is evinced by the large number of authors who wrote treatises "De Fato",e.g. Chrysippus,Cicero,Plutarch,Alexander of Aphrodisias, and sundry Christian writers down to the Middle Ages.
Consistent Calvinism = Fatalism, with God being the Fater.
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Swayzee got really quiet. It nailed him so he can't answer since he claims that when Jesus wept, that it wasn't God weeping. He forgets that God was born, died, and risen
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 To understand the utter stupidity of Calvinism, all you need do is read Psalms 37:12-13, “The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them; but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming”.
Calvinists may agree that God laughs at the wicked, but they also believe that God alone authored and predestine their wickedness. The God of the Bible laughs at the plans of the wicked while the God of the Calvinists is amused by His predestined wickedness
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword Calvin said, "God thus turning the unclean spirits hither and thither at his pleasure, employs them in exercising believers by warring against them"
Calvin Institutes Bk 1 ch 14
So Calvin's 'god' is pleased at warring against believers. WCOF claims that Lucifer could not sin without God having irresistibly made Lucifer do it.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword Though Calvinists claim that they believe their god created the universe, time, right and wrong, etc, their Calvinism contradicts the Bible. If their god is watching eternally every second that has, is, or will occur, then there is no unfolding of anything. He is drooling unable to take his eyes off the screen and unable to change the program. A nurse should wheel him back to his room and check his pulse, lol.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword "If everything according to Calvinism has been predetermined and nothing can be changed, why does Piper waste his time opening his mouth and making those oddball melodramatic faces and animated hand gestures to try to prove his point?"
A consistent Calvinists would say, "Those are the 'Means' by which ALL THINGS are Predetermined/Decreed & Fated."
Though "Fated" is not a word they like to us because it associates their consistency with 'Fatalism'.
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 yes, Aug redefines it b/c Cicero is irrefutable. "“But that all things come to pass by fate, we do not say; ... for we demonstrate that the name of fate, as it is wont to be used by those who speak of fate, meaning thereby the position of the stars ... is an unmeaning word, for astrology itself is a delusion.” The City of God, "If anyone calls the influence or the power of God by the name of Fate, let him keep his opinion, but mend his speech." Word games even then!
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1 Augustine forced the use of the term fate from its common use vs.the Early Fathers use of it and he CLAIMED that 'fate' had ONLY to do with astrology. He says fate doesn't exist because astrology is a delusion. So when anyone uses the term fate, he can get all Jeffy and correct them saying he doesn't teach that men's actions are their fate.
The Ante-Nicene and COMMON use of the term refers to a 'fixed future'. Aug begins to create insider jargon like Mani.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
If everything according to Calvinism has been predetermined and nothing can be changed, why does Piper waste his time opening his mouth and making those oddball melodramatic faces and animated hand gestures to try to prove his point? If everything is fixed and nothing can be changed then what’s his point in even speaking? What does he hope to accomplish with his prayers, other than trying to sound holy and pompous, if his prayers can’t change that which he believes is absolutely unchangeable?
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword Your question pre-supposes your conclusion. You are essentially asking why he CHOOSES to do those things, but he doesn't believe he has that choice in the first place, so your question is moot.
teoeo 2 weeks ago
God is no respecter of persons...unless you are a calvinist or a Jew.
agrowingtime 2 weeks ago
This is like an Arminian watering hole... Haha.
FromSensesPeak 2 weeks ago
If anyone agrees with John Piper's opinion about God predetermining the constant movement and position of every dust particle, why would they then have any reason to be thankful for anything other than the mechanics of predestination itself? Anyone who does accept Piper’s position ultimately places their faith in the unfolding of predestined events and not in a dynamic God who lovingly watches over them as a father who actively cares about them.
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@MrTruthSword amen, Ezekiel 6:9 ' because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a-whoring after their idols: '
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
to ppl who write negative comments on his videos....if u dont believe in god and think Christians are dumb why are you looking up "John Piper" on Youtube and watching his videos??? im confused....
koala8 2 weeks ago
Jesus chose to die for us. He had the choice. God sent his son to die for us knowing the choices of man that would lead to the perfect point for Christ to enter history.
Why would Jesus have prayed this prayer in Gethsemane if everything was predetermined?
Matt 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
squishells 2 weeks ago
Weird. I was just watching a video where he was saying abortion is bad and we shouldn't kill babies. Yet in this one he's basically contradicting that one by saying abortion is predetermined by God.
Wish Christians would take time to use their brains.
SaintsnotSinners 3 weeks ago
@SaintsnotSinners Agreed. He claims abortion is bad, yet Piper holds that God has predetermined before many babies are born that their soul purpose in life is to die and go to hell. One of these Calvinists claimed that if a baby dies it is proof it is one of the elect who goes to heaven and that no baby predestined for hell can die as an infant. The problem is that if all babies die as babies, then none can go to hell. So which is better, to kill babies for heaven or...
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
Calvinism is a DUMB doctrine, full stop. Even worse, it is a BLASPHEMOUS doctrine. It maligns God and his cross. "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Jas 1:13-15)
lessingtom 3 weeks ago
@lessingtom "Calvinism is a DUMB doctrine" Amen. They say God is glorified in showing mercy (when he planned their sin to begin with) and is glorified in showing justice in meting out eternal torment (again when he planned both their sin and their torment before they were born). How is either mercy or justice glorified if their god is the the architect for their sin in the first place. There's an elephant under the rug and they cry 'ad hominem' to distract from it.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
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All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
mamainmancj 3 weeks ago
this blabber mouth just wants to contro everyone, so he gets the money. i dont belive in any sky-god that controls every dust particle and i aint crazy. IMO, your the kook and your driving more and more innocents to insanity with all this mumbo-jumbo
roslynny 3 weeks ago
Watched a ´couple of Pipers videos, and it's just sad to see a human brain reduced to this level. There's no thought left. There's only "The Bible says"...
HKragh 3 weeks ago
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@christopherasaurus "false prophets?"
Acts 20:28-30 Be on guard for yourselves... I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you... & men will rise up from YOUR OWN NUMBER with DEVIANT DOCTRINES to lure the disciples into following them, so be ALERT."
2 Tim. 2:17-18 "...their talk will spread like gangrene... men who have gone astray from the truth... & they overthrown the faith of some..."
"This question nearly drove me to mental instability and suicide" -murdan13
Isaiah1v18 3 weeks ago
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Isaiah1v18 3 weeks ago
Dear everyone that recognizes some of the problems raised with Piper's answer, look up Molinism.
theguitarfarmer 3 weeks ago
This question nearly drove me to mental instability and suicide- I'm not lying. The way to go about is to focus on Christ and how we as sinners NEED Him and His perfect sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
murdan13 3 weeks ago
We have free will, yet everything is determined? Hitler was bound for hell before he was born?
TheAxis456 4 weeks ago
@TheAxis456 To quote WCOF's only refutation to questions like that..."IDIOTS"
LOL. That's what he calls me anyways when he cannot answer or think for himself.
fractalfires1 3 weeks ago
How could I ask John Piper a question?
MrMrahill 1 month ago
hi Puppypie, seriously you think this view is erroneous? That God is God and is in complete control of His creation? Maybe you believe that man is God and determines all things? Please read Paul's letters and look up the meaning for words such as election, predestined. Also what did Jesus mean when He said no-one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him. Who hardened Pharoah's heart? the answer is 1) God and 2) Pharaoh. let the pot be silent before the one who has mercy. God Bless, Stephen
DefrostedCalvinist 1 month ago
@DefrostedCalvinist "That God is God and is in complete control of His creation?"
So everything is happening exactly as God wants it including mutilation, murder, pedophilia, false charges, adultery, beastiality, fornication?
God controls the physical laws of the universe, but he is also a moral governor with moral laws. You have confused these into just physical gov't. The sight of the miracles hardened pharaoh who was not willing to submit to God. Same with pharisees
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@DefrostedCalvinist & @puppypies Defrost, you said "Also what did Jesus mean when He said no-one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him."
He also said that if he be lifted up he will DRAW all men to himself.
Draw or DRAG? You feel the Holy Spirit CANNOT be resisted in his work of conviction of sin to bring the sinner to a place of yielding. However, Stephen said in Acts 'ye do always RESIST the Holy Spirit'.
Jeremiah says God continually reached out to Judah.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@DefrostedCalvinist When Stephen said "ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye," what was the Holy Spirit attempting to do with these men whom Stephen blamed?
fractalfires1 1 month ago
psst, let me give you a hint: You DON'T have free will... you will do what you want to do and without God's grace, what you want to do is sin and you will not repent. You can't fly like superman at will, you are mortal, you are limited in your freedom at all times. God is the only being in the universe who is unlimited in his freedom. You have will, but it is creaturely will because you are a created thing.
Collidedatoms 1 month ago
I am a straight up and down believer in Jesus and I don't believe at all that this is true.
It's really difficult to hear important pastors like this bro propagating this viewpoint, which I feel is erroneous. What he is saying essentially is that I have no free will, and that simply isn't true; and I think it makes everything else he says untrue in this video. I believe there is more to the story than this.
puppypies 1 month ago
@puppypies "It's really difficult to hear important pastors like this bro propagating this viewpoint, which I feel is erroneous. "
Jeremiah 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
JER 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@ms0651 "He will do whatever He wants!"
So then, God Causally Determines "from the foundation of the world" that the wicked give glory, worship & praise to False idols instead of to God, when God Himself declares, "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols"?
If you are correct, God Causally Determines to Blaspheme Himself by way of the wicked, cancelling out Isaiah 42:8.
Your philosophy fails in the Light of the Scriptures.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago 2
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@Isaiah1v18 ""He will do whatever He wants!"
So then, God Causally Determines "from the foundation of the world" that the wicked give glory, worship & praise to False idols instead of to God, when God Himself declares, "I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols"?"
Very good point. They are giving glory, praise and worship to False idols. Yet, Calvinists insist that God ultimately is causing them to do this
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 Calvinists don’t believe God is a God who desires to handle ever changing dynamics but that He is a God who decided to long ago predestine everything so He could then retire and just sit back and watch all of predestined eternity unfold.
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Calvinism being an utterly nonsensical deterministic gnostic philosophy, fly’s in the face of Biblical truth, logic, and all that is holy and righteous. Calvinists are adamant about God’s will, without question, always being accomplished on earth. But Jesus said we should pray for God’s will to be done on earth, as His will is being done in heaven. Why would Christ have instructed us to pray to that end? The simple logical truth is that God’s will is not always being done on earth.
MrTruthSword 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 God in decreeing that man worshiping false gods disobeying His commands is actually giving Glory to Himself in their destruction. God gets the Glory no matter what He has decreed man to do, He will glorify Himself in their salvation or He will glorify Himself in their destruction. So now this dilemma you think you have trapped us with is rendered moot.
WCOFTheology 2 weeks ago
@WCOFTheology "He will glorify Himself in their salvation or He will glorify Himself in their destruction." How?
If people can not accept now that God is just by predestining people to hell before they are born, then how are they supposed to change their mind in eternity? Unless they are brainwashed like you, they can't wrap their mind around your slippery definitions of justice and goodness. Such a pig as your god will be held in eternal contempt, rather than glorified.
fractalfires1 1 week ago
@fractalfires1 Oh, YOU WILL except that God is just in predestining people, I can promise you that, and it does not matter one wit to God if you seethe and spit your hate at Him in hell for all eternity. See God does not need your approval of His actions, He is the Potter and He can make you just the way He wants. You will hold Him in contempt for all eternity, unless God changes your mind, but I will be praising His Holy Name for all of eternity!
WCOFTheology 1 week ago
@WCOFTheology "Oh, YOU WILL except that God is just in predestining people, I can promise you that,"
Only with the zap of the remote! Because NOBODY is going to accept that this is just without a logotomy.
You don't praise God's Holy Name now. You're a loser Jeff
fractalfires1 1 week ago
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Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
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@Isaiah1v18 Yes. Ultimately God is the Author of Everything (Good,Evil). Yes the Problem is Solved. Now would you please answer my question: Why doesnot an All Powerful,All loving God end the Problem of Evil once for all, Why all this ? Is he so weak? Is he really ALL Powerful?
jimmycooldown 1 month ago
@jimmycooldown ISA 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Ecc 8:11
fractalfires1 1 month ago
Humans have free-will. It's what differentiates us from any other animals. Reality is independant of conciousness. If reality wasn't independant of conciousness there would be no reality. Reality would be what people or God,... say. But reality exists. Trying to contradicte this law implies that you use it (bringing real proof that reality doesn't exist is a contradiction). Since humans have free-will and reality is independant of any conciousness, you must go by the law of causality.
maximemeis111 1 month ago
@jimmycooldown "Hi, I assume you have read God&Evil: the problem solved by Gordon Clark."
What are your thoughts on "The Problem of Evil"?
Would you say "Evil" has been "solved" by saying that God Brings EVIL into existance for "His Good Pleasure" to "Glorify Himself"?
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
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jimmycooldown 1 month ago
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jimmycooldown 1 month ago
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@Isaiah1v18 Yes. Ultimately God is the Author of Everything (Good,Evil). Yes the Problem is Solved. Now would you please answer my question: Why does an All Powerful God end the Problem of Evil once for all, Why all this drama ? Is he so weak? Is he really ALL Powerful?
jimmycooldown 1 month ago
@jimmycooldown "Read Vincent Cheung, he will help you."
Vincent Cheung is a HyperCalvinist who uses the Philosophy of Determinism as a his foundation to giving Biblical COMMENTARIES.
What do i need 'help' on?
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 Hi, I assume you have read God&Evil: the problem solved by Gordon Clark.
I would like to know your thoughts on Romans 9? Doctrine of Predestination. Do you think its fair ? Why doesn't God save everyone and not few? How do you save God from this charge?
jimmycooldown 1 month ago
Does the Bible teach that God "commands" you to Obey, but then CAUSALLY DETERMINES that you Disobey?
Does God declare, "I take No Pleasure in the Death of the Wicked" but then CAUSALLY DETERMINE that the wicked die for "His GOOD PLEASURE"? 1 Jn 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago 3
@Isaiah1v18 WCOF continually claims "God has no conscience" "God is NOT a moral agent"
Yet, he cannot even cite one of his calvinistic guru ascended masters to support it.
In fact, both Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin state the EXACT OPPOSITE.
According to St. Irenaeus just after the apostles, the Marcionites sought to do away with the 'judicial faculty' in God, rendering right and wrong 'mere opinion'.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 Yes, Israel's sin was not predestined. Jer 2:17 Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, when he led thee by the way?
21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me? 30 In VAIN have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.
(God does things in vain too!)
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18
Did God take pleasure in the death of Pharaoh? Or Pharaoh's son?
Did God take pleasure in Saul being tortured by the evil spirit? By the way, where did that evil spirit come from?
Why are we taught to pray "Lead us not into temptation"?
ms0651 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 false prophets? are you kidding me.... i dont get people like you. How about you deal with your own sin first before throwing out such heinous accusation, or tell someone about the gospel of Jesus. Really. So over these theological internet warriors who present superficial arguments out of a heart of pride. Come talk theology after you applied what you know to how to live ! Otherwise be quite.
christopherasaurus 3 weeks ago
@christopherasaurus "false prophets? are you kidding me"
You're not up to speed. Isaiah1v18 was being restrained by calling WCOF just a false prophet. He's been exposed as an imposter posing as a believer - trying to lead others into destruction thru demonic docrtrines. Rom5:12 says sin entered the world thru Adam but WCOF says GOD desired it to happen - he contradicts 1Cor10:13 & claims God not only allowed but purposed for Adam to be tempted beyond his ability to resist & to fall into sin.
JackMWolfe 3 weeks ago
@Crimkazanawa "What is your opinion on this?"
None. Just Facts:
Deut. 30:11
"For this commandment (of Faith according to Paul- Rom.10) that I command you today is NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you, neither is it far off...
v19
...I have set before you LIFE & DEATH, blessing and curse. Therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that you and your offspring may live,
If "choices" do NOT exist, Gods "Commandments" are either WORTHLESS or they are just an EXCUSE to Justify HIMSELF to Causally SAVING or DAMNING his creation.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago 4
@Isaiah1v18
He will do whatever He wants! Although He commands, for conscience's sake, He has pre-established the paths of of everyone, some to be made for dishonourable purposes, and some for honorable purposes. Who are you to question the Potter's authority over His clay?
ms0651 1 month ago
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@ms0651 "He will do whatever He wants! " Are you saying God might want to do something sinful according to his word? What is it you are claiming God wants? Are you saying that God is not a moral agent and has no conscience or wisdom to guide what he WILL DO? It sounds like you are asserting that God's will is determined solely by his WANTS. Can you please elaborate?
fractalfires1 1 month ago
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@ms0651 "Who are you to question the Potter's authority over His clay?"
I think you grossly misinterpret Paul's argument to make it agree with theological fatalism.
If such a being exists that creates some people to be tormented for eternity and others are fated by him to go to heaven (before they are born even) then in eternity, their consciences will forever condemn such a monster. This will not end with this being's glory, but rather INFAMY for eternity if such a fiction were true.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
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@ms0651 "He will do whatever He wants! " We know God in an UNcreated being, that is, he has no beginning he always was. Are you saying that if God wanted to he could will himself to have had a beginning so that he would no longer be an uncreated being? If so, this would imply that God is not immutable. The question is, are there some things God CANNOT want or OUGHT not want?
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@jjajpro "How is this view wrong and unbiblical?"
Suppose Determinism is valid-- a Sinless Adam & Eve could ONLY do what God Had already CAUSALLY PREDESTINED & DETERMINED to come to pass-- God then MUST have purposed in His MIND & HEART from the foundation of the World, to have created & FATED Adam & Eve to BURN FOREVER with no alternate end-result, having no ability to alter their Fate, for "His GOOD PLEASURE" to "GLORIFY HIMSELF".
If Determinism is valid, This IS the only logical conclusion.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago 3
@Isaiah1v18 I view it thusly: We have free will. God, however, knows all that will take place. He does not control someone to do something; they choose, but knowing their decision beforehand, God's will is carried out. He did not fate Adam and Eve; they chose their own fate. Knowing the choices that would be made, he set up ways to save humanity. He does not determine our choices, but weaves His plan through them. That's the best I can explain it at this length. What is your opinion on this?
CrimKazanawa 1 month ago
@CrimKazanawa Your view of omniscience assumes the future is already written.
I hold to omniscience, but I do not hold that the future is already written. God intervenes in history and responds to man's sin and repentance accordingly. This is no deficiency of knowledge in God. The Bible shows God as having expectations that were disappointed given all he has done to reach Israel, etc. Even with Cain. God saw what would happen IF Cain did not change his course.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@fractalfires1 You know, I should have seen that flaw in my logic when I proofread. I thank you for your input. I suppose that is what happens when one acts with haste.
CrimKazanawa 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 Yes, but how is it unbiblical? You didn't answer the question.
Brand131 1 month ago
Lets just assume John Piper is correct & Determinism is valid--everything has already been decreed & determined.
If all is settled & fixed as all things have been PREDETERMINED, then there is NO Judgement Day, there is no judging of every man "according to HIS WORKS", but rather, a Day of Execution, seeing it is only to EXECUTE what GOD long ago already DETERMINED to come to pass.
That doesnt work, thats Unbiblical, incorrect, incoherent, irrational, unsound & Invalid.
Piper is WRONG.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago 2
@Isaiah1v18 curious. How is this view wrong and unbiblical. No fights here! just a little discussion. Do you think God knows everything? the future? Did he know that men would fall into sin before He created them? Did he know that he would crucify Jesus for the domino Adam knocked over before He created the world? Does He not know already the ones He will judge, before He judges? This is probably too many questions at once, sorry...
jjajpro 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18
Got it man.
very well said.
krisanist 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18 Amen! Well said!
shteve77 1 month ago
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@Isaiah1v18 - Why would you ever conclude so foolishly? You have a habit of making logical fallacies; you say, "it this is true, then it can only mean that" Sorry, that is not logical and nothing more than a demonstration of your ignorance of the Word of God, and what He has clearly revealed. You don't want to hear that though, do you? You are content to mock and scoff rather than sincerly ask why we have come to a different conclusion. I will be posting some videos soon. Take a look.
ChristianityChannel 1 month ago
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@ChristianityChannel
"You have a habit of making logical fallacies"
"God is NOT a being, He is eternal. Beings are created."
“No. I'm telling you God IS a being. “
"You are content to mock and scoff rather than sincerly ask why we have come to a different conclusion."
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v18
Read this free pdf "Author of Sin" by Vincent Cheung. This will help you.
Just google it.
jimmycooldown 1 month ago
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@jimmycooldown "Read this free pdf "Author of Sin" by Vincent Cheung. This will help you. Just google it."
Why not just suggest that he sit in his closed garage with the car running. That's helping him too if you apply calvinistic magic to the term 'help'.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
@jimmycooldown I have the Ante-Nicene writers and the Bible and the heaviest dictionary I can lift. I don't need anything else.
fractalfires1 1 month ago
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@fractalfires1 Hi, I assume you have read God&Evil: the problem solved by Gordon Clark.
I would like to know your thoughts on Romans 9? Doctrine of Predestination. Do you think its fair ? Why doesn't God save everyone and not few? If God is really ALL Loving the why doesn't he save ALL?How do you save God from this charge?
jimmycooldown 1 month ago
Comment removed
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
Mental noise, all this is is mental noise. It's funny, I had to leave the church to find God.
greyswans 1 month ago
@50LightSabers "and Im wondering ..."
No need to wonder. Youre comment compelled JackMWolfe to write you a reply.
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
It's amazing how there are massive discussion on videos like these; if people feel he need to keep posting comments against this video (and others alike) just shows that they are not comfortable with their beliefs, and feel the need to keep talking against it to make themselves feel better.
50LightSabersInAPack 1 month ago
@50LightSabersInAPack I'm wondering what makes you so so uncomfortable with your beliefs that you feel compelled to vent so strongly here - ever hear of projection?
JackMWolfe 1 month ago
@JackMWolfe And I'm wondering what compelled you to write that comment...
50LightSabersInAPack 1 month ago
@50LightSabersInAPack "I'm wondering what compelled you to write that"
LOL, it might just be because you came here projecting on others your own obvious confusion & lack of trust in your own beliefs! Those who routinely post biblical refutations of Calvinism's unbiblical abominations aren't the least bit uncomfortable with their own beliefs but desire that others don't stumble into Calvin's dark pit or if they already have, to show them the truth of God's word so they'll be able to escape.
JackMWolfe 1 month ago
so does God govern our decision of wether we come to surrender our life to Jesus or not?
anonymousmagi149 1 month ago
If God predestined everything ,even he put a thought or made or inspire, initiate... what ever you say he did , to make one of the soldiers be involved in the killing of Jesus.And then require from the same soldier to repent for what he did in order to be saved ? In some way to apologize for following God's plan for the salvation of the whole world ?
something is wrong in this concept in the very root
krisanist 1 month ago
@krisanist There's nothing inconsistent. God reserrves the sovereign right to use evil for His own good purposes, such as in the case of Joseph or the crucifixion, & then to call the participants to repent later. Joseph noted this & forgave his brothers & Jesus forgave all those involved in His crucifixion from the cross. In all such cases, those involved are held accountable only at the point the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin & calls them to repent - not for the time they were unrestrained.
JackMWolfe 1 month ago
@JackMWolfe See, when we speak about "God use/d that" is a whole other issue .
Cause we can start speaking of examples as : "well, God aloud for person X to be raped , so he can use that for good , to teach her how to trust him "
We can come up with all kind of example and discuss if God aloud something or initiate or whatever, and In the end of the day, we can come with a reasonable answer , and still miss the character of God.
krisanist 1 month ago