lol @ 9:32 finkelstein: "that's the facts", ben ami: "yeah" -- the subtext of that single word? "finkelstein, you're always right -- throw me a bone, will you?" -- lol -- these two guys should have their own show
First wow really good interview! Even Ben Ami cant contradict Finkelstein, this guy knows more about a Middle-East than a foreign minister! Holly shit! No wonder why he cant go to Israel! Thats why they are afraid of him, they cant battle with someone who persistently and relentlessly shows the simple truth: that Israel is illegal, irational and a terrorist country.
A few points for people who intrested in intellegent debate on subject. Key points delevered by Ben Ami and disputed by NF is Camp David / Taba negociation ended becuase of palestinians.
His arguments: Israeli agreed with Clinton parameters and P-n did not. Israeli offer additional concessions in taba and hold talk open till last possible moment.
Indeed there is consequences for wars, and global terror that has been going on for over 60 years should not go unpunished, Israel comes out of the blue because they have a book that tells them this their land so they kill and kick out a whole nation, they legalize torture which is considered by the UN a terrorist act, they destroy people's home which is considered by the UN a terrorist act, they call anyone who opposed them a terrorist, they have a nuclear weapon, what's more terrorizing then
Reality is ... war is not a joke and there is consequences for starting and losing war.
There should be a grave consequences for global terror that going on for 60 year.
You are crying about arabs refugees and casualties but there is other side. Jews also had refugees who were robe blind and forced out. They also lost people in war and only Finkemoron compare casualties. Israeli lost less people in open war too so? How does it prove them guilty?
@Greywind30 Ben Ami played the numbers game, as you would have noticed in this part. He complained about the number of Palestinians & Lebanese exchanged for Israeli prisoners. But as the professor pointed out, that's cherrypicking because Israel tends to always take lots of prisoners, mostly civilians.
There are more arab casualties but does it mean they are right in this conflict and jews are wrong?
There were less Israeli casualties in open war like in 1973 so what?
It means one thing Israeli have efficient army and security and most importantly democratic system care about people unlike bloody dictators and crazy mullahs who see own people as dirt and cannon meat
@Greywind30 Assertion isn't proof. And your point is clearly false, as the Israeli military intentionally uses lethal indiscriminate weapons just to kill a single person in populated areas. Like cluster bombs, which is illegal. The fact we're not talking about 10s of thousands of civilian deaths one Israeli conflict after another is beside the point. To simply endanger or injure a civilian is illegal, correct? And even to mistakenly kill a non-combatant or protected person, is a crime. Right?
@Redcarpet01 "The fact we're not talking about 10s of thousands of civilian deaths one Israeli conflict after another is beside the point."
Actually it is my point. All this accusation in indiscriminate use of force and results ... very a few death.
For example in WW2 UK/US bomb Hamburg -50k casualties
But lets compare "effectiveness" of Israeli with PLO. Damour (lebanon) PLO killed 600 in one day with mare knifes/AK47 They took time on torture and rape. In gaza 2 week/1400. Compare this.
@Greywind30 Yes, and those numbers are difficult to accept with the range of arms and choices available to the Israeli military. Liek if you want to use a smoke screen, why not use non-lethal smoke as opposed to White Phospherus? WP burns and can kill, and is illegal to use in populated areas. So why use it?
@Redcarpet01 " those numbers are difficult to accept with the range of arms and choices available to the Israeli military"
What choices are u talking about? Invade gaza with infantry and fight house to house? They done it already and guess what? Not only they pay higher price in human life but also in PR.
There is no way for Israel to please like of you but die. is not it?
Use more expencive weapon? Israeli already paying 60% taxes. They can't.
@Greywind30 Trouble is it can be used as a weapon. And that is illegal, and illegal if used with the possibility, or endangerment, of any persons. Yes, it can also be used as a flare to light the sky at night as well. But to use over populated areas is clearly illegal.
@Greywind30 Already seen that. He makes nothing beyond assertions. No proof. A core assertion, that the campaign was because of 'rocket attacks' by Hamas is false. As he would know if he was an 'expert'. Israel government's own position was "The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire."
@Greywind30 I was quoting the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They said "The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire."
I'm not sure to what time period you refer but I'm talking about time period that lead to gaza bombing and does not make any difference. If hamas can't or does not want keep those group down then IDF has all rights to go after those terrorist.
IMHO Israeli went above and beyond in order to achieve peace. They even sit down with bloody killer like Arafat. There is no precedent in whole world history that loser dictate condition of peace like in this case.
@Greywind30 "IMHO Israeli went above and beyond in order to achieve peace". Since Israel broke the agreement IMMEDIATELY I can't fathom how you can draw that conclusion. They didn't even WANT a ceasefire remember. Israel's Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni stated in early December 2008 that although Israel wanted to create a temporary period of calm with Hamas, an extended truce “harms the Israeli strategic goal, empowers Hamas, and gives the impression that Israel recognizes the movement.”
@Redcarpet01 "Since Israel broke the agreement IMMEDIATELY I can't fathom how you can draw that conclusion."
Are u under impression that conflict started with hamas or its limited to hamas?
Hamas is bunch of fundamentalist who do not recognize Israel at all and do not represent significant portion of arabs. Yes I know they won election but so and Hitler at time and just like him they hold on power with violence.
@Greywind30 What you say is irrelevant, because I just disproved what you claimed earlier. Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas. And Israel's govt. didn't even WANT one. Contrary to your claims. Making irrelevant claims from Arafat to how Hamas keeps power only degrades your position.
@Greywind30 Right, so indiscriminate force is acceptable as long as the casualties produced aren't in the millions? That's a disgusting claim. Indiscriminate force is illegal, irrespective of how many casualties are produced. Period.
Did u not just listen to the video and the stats Norman have mentioned? Oh sorry I remember now you are simply a Zionist full of hatred who can't and don't want to listen yeah sorry my bad forgot about that lol
#1 I hate vulgarity but to be clear. FUCK UN. Its good for nothing stupid bureaucracy. 90% of members are despicable dictators and 10% opportunistic egocentric.
#2 99% of the problem is criminal partition by UN and UK in 1948
#3 Israel did not reject Taba. Arafat did. That's testimony of Clinton.
#4 Why Syria lost land in first place? They invade Israel in 67 and lost war. True by law you can't acquire land by force. By what law you can invade countries without consequences? Is it game?
Well, U.N REs 242 allows for land swap on the Jordanian border but requires Israel to give back Gaza, West Bank, all of Jerusalem and allow safe passage between territories. Why is that so bad? Palestinians made offers in Camp David and Taba to only have a small militia and police force active in territories, Israel rejected. Israel wants recognition? Pali's said you don't recognize us. Israel wants a Jewish state, which means Arabs would be second class citizens. That's another big problem.
Do you realize that war was from 73? Please do some research on the strength of Israeli's military today. Along with total support by U.S. Do you also remember what the fat guy said at the beginning, this is Syrian land. Why did Syria invade? Because the Israeli's wouldn't give back their land. The Golan Heights caused a problem. And it doesn't stand as a credit to Israel to give back Sinai. It was stolen in the first place. Also how many problems has Israel had with Egypt since then?
Well, the laws that Israel is in violation of are International Laws based on the U.N Charter and various resolutions along with the Geneva Convention. Those are real laws, not just suggestions and they apply. Israeli human rights violations against Pali's tower of those committed by Pali's and Arabs against Israelis, that's a simple matter of fact that isn't even disputed by Israel.The U.S did not claim Germany for itself. I don't see how you can't make that distinction.
I really need to understand your side. Do you, or do you not agree that Israel is in flagrant violation of international law? What I'm really unsure of is, if there were a hypothetical peace, where any aggressive behavior, speech anything against Israel was stopped, would you then say that Israel must give back Palestinian land? Your argument is that Israel needs to occupy Pali land and commit terrible human rights violations for there own safety? You really haven't stated your case very clearly
My point of view is .. There should be a major land swap to make both state valid. Palestinian state should be demilitarize. Refugee FROM BOTH sides should be compensated and any jewish settlement embedded on Palestinian land removed and turn to arabs who live in Israel at moment. Jerusalem should be divided. Jewish side to jews and arab side to international control. IMHO.
Backing does not mean proxy. Even Hamas itself admits that it receives funding so that it may fight Israel. If Pali didn't need to fight Israel it probably wouldn't allow pressuring from Iran to constantly fight back against Israel. Being under attack doesn't give you carte blanche to break laws. What they are doing is illegal even under the circumstances which you have overblown and only hurting their cause. Have you not read any of the literature on this subject? Israel is hurting itself.
"What about the numerous cease fires that Hamas has fervently adhered to only to be broken by Israel"
Huh?
Do you realize that "cease fire" is a TEMPORARY agreement during WAR and any attempt to use it to gain advantage is deal breaker?
What about last coordinated attack with massacre of jewish family, bombing Jerusalem and missile attacks? What about ship with missiles intercepted by Israel?
Are you just trying to take my words out of context? I didn't say anything about the winner always being guilty nor did I even imply it. So because there are threats to Israel's safety Palestine can never be free? What about the numerous cease fires that Hamas has fervently adhered to only to be broken by Israel. Do some research on the buildup to the massacre in Gaza. Even Israel admits that Hamas stuck to the cease fire and that they(Israel)broke the peace by killing six Hamas leaders.
You still haven't shown the connection between ten miles of illegally occupied territory and safety. Relinquishing their illicit claims would improve their security status. 1. Many threats would abate(those simply wanting statehood) 2. Once Israel is in compliance it can lobby world comm. for help. Which means sanctions, no fly-zones, and since they will no longer be an aggressor, a greater amount of military funding. U.S currently gives arms illegally.
I agree there's a connection, I don't agree that Pali leadership is a proxy. There are also other secular threats that merely want compliance with international law and Pali statehood. You still have yet to show the connection between Israels addition of 10 miles of border to there survival. In your mind are these superpowers not able to cross these ten miles. Do you not think it would be better to come into compliance with intl law and lobby the world community for help with security?
Israel can build walls all day long on their legally recognized borders. There's no opposition to that. Yes there's been lots of wars. Not quite a war of attrition since the vast vast majority of blood is on Israeli hands, including civilians. And yes it was illegal for Russia to occupy Germany, The U.S relinquished germany after a year but Russia was in violation of intl law and 20 years ago given up. Just because countries do things doesn't make it right.
"since the vast vast majority of blood is on Israeli hands, including civilians"
So in fight whoever won is guilty? Sure Israel has less casualties no thank to arabs. They try hard to hit specifically civilian preferentially kids. Hence wall and as any defensive structure IN WAR it build without regard to borders. It is not problem for peace. Wall can be removed and Israeli can remove settlements too.
US left Germany after installing gov and displacing millions of german
I'd be glad to talk about historical injustices of the Jews in Arab lands and I certainly don't deny them. What this vid was about was the Palestinian crisis. I'll repeat myself, the majority of Arab/Islamic regimes are terrible. Most Palestinian leadership has backing from enemies of Israel. Once again you haven't answered why Israel should not be held to international standards of law. Instead of telling me why my logic is flawed please just refute the main question we're talking about.
Fact is Israel had over 60yr of conflict with Arabs. 3 open wars. Global terror campaign. War of attrition. Ugly conflict. Arabs were very open in regard what they want to do with jews. And you are asking why Israel occupy WB/Gaza?
Why US/UK/Russia occupy Germany? Should not they just stop on German borders?
Why Israeli make a wall? Should not suicide bombers have a free access to bomb kindergartens?
I didn't mean to be one-sided I just thought you were asking about Palestinian refugees. I have not once denied that other countries are involved, in fact I have brought them up several times, I have not once denied that Hamas is controlled in part by Iran, in fact I've brought it up. Several times as a matter of fact. I am quite aware of the treacherous arab regimes and have brought it up several times. Don't tell me my logic is flawed when you're completely ignoring what I've said.
Why is the occupation necessary? Why is destroying homes to build illegal settlements necessary? Why is hostage taking necessary? Why is torture necessary? Why is illegal containment wall necessary? Why is blocking food and medical aid necessary? And please don't quote I.D.F sources. Why are all these things necessary to the survival of Israel. The quaran sucks. Arab dictators are ass holes. Israel is a small country. None of that explains why those things are necessary. Why is my view wrong?
Which by the way in the Oslo accords and one other since which I can't think of right now. The Palestinians offered Israeli's some sort of advanced warning system within territories. I don't know what you're getting at with the refugees but the U.N says around 8-9 hundred thousand 48 refugees. About 5-6 million today of which estimates show only 5-10% would invoke right of return. You've evaded the question time after time and given me all sorts of hypotheticals.
You have yet to point out why my logic is narrow or invert. You bring up other issues that are relevant to the conflict but not what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm aware Israel is small, Palestine is smaller. Yet it is by far the strongest military force in the region with a nuclear arsenal. It will probably not be over run since it has the strongest military in the world backing it. I really wonder the logistic necessity of another ten miles of border. Cont.
If you can't act sensible and say why Israel will be destroyed if it stops massacring civilians at a 100 to 1 ratio like the battle of Gaza. Or justify building a wall with remote machine gun turrets. Or arrest people for stealing water. Then I'm done. I've tried to have a sensible debate over the past few days and have gotten no where. You have two lines "israel will be destroyed" and "arabs suck". That's all you've said. Tell me why Israel will be destroyed when palistinians have statehood.
You stubbornly stick to narrow view of conflict and invert logic.
Let me ask you a few question.
#1. Do you realize that Israel as it is a "glass cannon" its really tiny country that can be overrun within hours. It heavily rely on advance warning to mobilize army and switch whole country in war mode. In 67 border and modern weapon it will be totally defenseless.
#2. Tell me number of refugees in wake of 1948 war. (without descendants)
I really feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm not trying to defend the Arabs as a whole. I'm trying to defend the Palestinians. Yes many of there leaders are crap. The Goldstone Report as well as many other reports say there was no human shielding. You can't just claim human shielding with no evidence. If fighting takes place in an urban area that doesn't mean human shielding. That's Israels claim when it drops a bomb haphazardly and kills a shit load of people. Read the evidence.
You have to accept that Hamas is just as responsible for the civilian casualties for using civilians as human shields. Stockpiling weapons on urban areas etc...
@SID480 I'm assuming you're referring to the Gaza Conflict, where the human shields claims were recently made. Numerous investigations by human rights organizations and the U.N's Goldstone Report determined that there was no transfer of civilian population for use as human shields. The claim about human shields and stock-piling is often made due to the fact that the fighting occurred in populated areas. BTW, the ratio of civilian casualties was 400:1 with Israel losing the 1.
Entire Gaza is human shield and proverbial sacrificial sheep.
Mulas, bloody dictators and medieval kings brainwash and sacrifice those poor bastards for a sake of PR.
It takes mind of brainwashed masses from social injustices and bankruptcy of religion who on one hand has messianic goals but in fact keeping almost 2B people in dark.
Explain to me why arabs who give chemistry, algebra etc etc are backward people with 0 contribution for about 1000 yr?
It is true that Israel has broken international law, but I can't think of an Arab/muslim country that isn't doing the same thing right now. I definitely don't agree with the way Israel is behaving. I'm American and if I had to choose to live in Israel or any other middle eastern country, I would without a doubt pick Israel simply based on domestic policy and civil liberties. I mean I can't honestly think of a muslim country that doesn't abuse international human rights and is a democracy?
@wono222 Well considering there is only 1 Jewish country, even so, I would much rather live under the rule of the Israeli government than any other muslim country I can think of??? Israel treats its own people far better than most muslim countries, the part that bothers me about israel is its foreign policy.
Actually Mr Ben Ami, Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, as a means of coercion, Terror, in this sense, is violent or destructive acts, carried out by guerrillas / and or people / governments in order to intimidate a population, or government into granting their demands. Now, looking at the current situation, Israel is using terrorism to intimidate the indigenous population, and ultimately insink enough fear into them, that the only choice is escape (Israels demands that is).
Between 8.25 - 8.37 Finkelstein states international Law should apply to everyone which i agree it should. Does Mr Finkelstein though do as much research on Israels neighbours in the Middle East? All Dictatorships and Theocracies with terrible human rights records and very little freedom of the press. WHY is Israel his sole focus of Intersest on these matters. Ben Ami rightly points out that Israel situation should be taken in the context that it is not dealing with raesonable states = Swe Nor
Im actually beginning to feel bad for Ben Ami, he does feel attacked as an Israeli and he wishes his own country would catch up to what he already knows.
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
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Finkelstein - what a prick. Go criticize Syrian torture. Go criticize Egyptian torture. Maybe you'd prefer if Israel was an authoritarian state? Leave the only democracy in the Middle East alone.
@tomasito1234567 we're not discussing syrian or egyptian torture. we're discussing israeli torture.
all those examples are illegal under international law. just because we are talking about israel in this debate DOES NOT MEAN we condone torture anywhere else.
Both men conducted themselves very well. Until Shlomo when asked about torture immediately diverted to a "Well these countries did it too" approach, I didn't really like that. Finkelestein has guts to take this stand against Israel considering the reception criticism of that kind gets. Ben Ami on the other hand is still tied to Israel politically (not directly) but I would guess he is trying not to alienate his reader base as well as alienate himself from Israel.
I respect your dignity and honest Mr. NormanFinkelstein.. Being honest you should be rewarded by Nobel Prize for speaking out the truth as a Jew. I am really looking forward to buying your books...
@61eminem the nobel price is rewarded mostly to corrupt warmongering puppets like obama,so finkelstein deserves something better then that shit price.he is a man of valor and great courage ,he stands alone with a few others against the tyrannic racist state of israhell
I respect your dignity and honest Mr. NormanFinkelstein.. Being honest you should be rewarded by Nobel Prize for speaking out the truth as a Jew. I am really looking forward to buying your books...
What a brilliant, brave person Norman is. Most people would be scared shitless of rabid dog MOSSAD, to publicly denounce Israel's crimes against humanity.
Does Israel imprison women and children too? I'm wondering if Israel tortures Arab women as well as men. Do they torture children? How would they torture them? Sleep deprivation or what. Certainly nothing that would leave evidence.
Israel has no soul anymore. It is a nation of insane racist bigots running around in circles congratulating themselves on being the Master race. They are insane. Driven mad by media propaganda and politicians, military and the rotten bureaucracy that has festered and grown up around the most possessed and evil of them
@gunthaarz And how do you conclude this? You write several opinionated phrases, one after the other, but provide no proof of how you came to your conclusions, and why.
The evil I discover comes from your mind, and shows up in your comments.
@stephanepereire - Watch Gilat Atzmon's videos you will understand what peace is. How my protests are more evil than the Israeli military killing on 400 children in 2009.
that describes a small minority of extremists, who, unfortunately have disproportionate influence on Israeli politics and political culture. the rest of the population is divided.
Did Shlomo Ben Ami just try to justify torture? 8:00
wow ! that is a new low ..
I really did think he was somewhat reasonable that was until he tried to justify torture .. you don't justify torture no matter what, no matter what!
how could anyone who is reasonable, still believe Israel's propaganda after watching this debate.. Shame on the US, shame on the whole world for not taking action against such states .. the world does not Israel as much as it did not need Sadam and Taliban ..
NF is a wonderful person and a great scholar. One can only respect and admire such a man.
I liked Dr. Ben Ami as well. A breath of fresh air coming for once from the pro-Israel side! He has good breeding and is an honest and reasonable person. In fact, he's the antithesis of the typical and rather maniacal attack dogs NF has to deal with when discussing these issues. I wish him well!
@Junk4Q2 He forfeitted his rights to visit Israel when he met with Hizballah members. You shouldn't be allowed in the US if you visit al Qaida members, so it works the same there. That's common sense, not "attack dogs," you idiot.
Common sense appears to be something you lack. If you had any you would understand that for all the hype about al quaida that the biggest al quaida are with the CIA, and Israel. So is the US going to kick out all the jews and CIA that visit with them? Of course you will spout on about how there are no fake al quaida but logic dictates otherwise. You sir are the idiot.
There was state terrorism against Egypt. Israel bombed civilian targets in the depth of Egypt. Bahr Al Baqar, in which a children school was bombed, and Abu Zabal in which a workers factory was bombed.
That happened during a war called the "War of attrition" in the late 60s. Dont you think if they really intended to spread terror they would have spread more of it?
Who would prevent them from doing so? The 10,000 Soviet advisors stationed in Egypt? Maybe the Soviet pilots supporting Egyptian airforce? I dont think so.
How many times did the "Allies" hit civilians in Afghanistan for example? They get embarrassed all the time when it repeatedly happens despite all the applied modern tech.
@dancebaby808 Sages said tha "figures never lie, but liars always figure" - so quoting numbers, as Norman Finkelstein does, is is not proof of the correctness of his argument, nor proof that he has outwitted Shlomo Ben-Ami.
Just the opposite, though a proficient debater, Norman Finkelstein twists semi-fact to create a tenuous argument that blurs the truth - and truth is relative, not absolute, as numbers are absolute.
Israel isn't the only country that uses house demolitions. It's was also used in Iraq, Vietnam, heck, even Darfur, as well as the Caucasian conflicts and the Yugoslav wars.
That's the point. The countries that you mentioned, minus israel, WERE(PAST TENSE) doing this, if this were true. Israel has and is STILL engaging in this kind of destructive and illegal activity.
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I read a little bit about house demolitions and their purpose. It's not just a random punishment to make a family feel like shit. This is going to sound a bit ridiculous, but hey, that's why it's done:
Israel threatens to destroy houses of terrorists (mainly suicide bombers), and sometimes their families go as far as begging Israel not to do it, and sometimes it even prevents the terrorists from committing their planned acts of terror.
And who convicts these so-called terrorists? Are they proven to be terrorists?
Hold on though:
Last week, when Palestinian Arabs were kicked out of their homes in East Jerusalem and Israelis walked in hours later, you're saying the Arabs were terrorists?
The settlement of Har Homa was built over a Palestinian neighbourhood. You're saying the whole neighbourhood was full of terrorists.
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There's a difference between demolishing (or threatening to demolish) a terrorist's home to prevent an attack and demolishing an entire neighborhood to create a new one. One of them I am in favor of, and the other I'm not in favor of. The one in which I'm not in favor of is determined in the Israel High Court, and many times they rule in favor of Palestinians, unless they can't provide enough evidence that they're right.
Btw, in 2005 they ended their use of House Demolition as a punishment.
Let us go through this slowly then. When a neighbourhood is demolished, it is illegal? What has been done to return the rights of those who have been treated unjustly and illegaly by the state?
Har Homa (Jabal Abou Ghneim) is in what is legally defined as East Jerusalem.
House demolition is a tactic. I should also add, ine that is in and of itself ILLEGAL. Show me one source that legalizes house demolitions.
If you can't find me a source for the above, whether or not the Israeli High Court supports these demolitions - even if under the pretext of fighting "terrorism" - they would still be illegal. The Israeli High Court has in the past sanctioned torture, taking of hostages etc.
@OBZ Demolition was acknowledged as a legal tool used by the British during the mandate - Britain cleared houses in Jaffa, with no indignation from the international press - it was done in response to Arab riots, and killings of British troops enforcing mandate law.
In fact, right, or not, Israel chose to maintain mandate law in the territories, rather than enforce Israeli law on non-Israelies.
Jews are our cousins, Arabs cousins. Finkelstein is not a unique case, there are many Jews like him. We have a lot of similarities. DO NOT CRITICIZE JEWS, criticize Zionists and Israeli politics.
The question is: should we wait to a inminent attack in our face to start action?
The operation of Zionists is: bully the "leaders" of some nation to give them the control and hide that control from the masses.
We all can agree a politician is more often a weak in principles "money whore" individual, than a courageous human rights fighter willing to sacrifice himself for the nation or people. It is time for action, but lets not take on a regular "Moshe" we need to get rid of heads like banks
Israel is not a vulnerable baby anymore. Nor is it an inncocent child. Nor is it a teenager for which its parents are responsible. Israel is 60 years old and can either keep playing senile and die OR do justice and live forever. That is not only in their own interest: the conflict has such far stretching consequences that it is in the interest of the everybody in the world that Israel takes responsability and does justice.
Here is a statement made by one of Israel's leading military analysts:
"The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposefully and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposefully attacked civilian targets"
Poor Dershowitz. He still has not regained his sanity since he lost his mind in that debate. But be sympathetic: suppose YOUR book were systematically torn apart by Finkelstein... Deshowitz will be haunted forever by that event. Serves him right for facilitating the rapture. He deserves life for disrespecting life.
You are wrong, dsr99, the Zionists are the criminals, not the Jews; although presently the majority of Jews is unfortunately supporting Zionism; it's not a matter of religion nor race, it's a political matter. Long live Palestina!
Israel Targeted a UN school in Gaza just yesterday with many refugees in it and killed around 40 innocents, Israel claimed that there where Terrorists in the building Launching Rockets and The UN denies Israel's claims.
Actually that was Fake propaganda by thier Huge PR relations campaigne and this is why they disabeled the comments on each of thier Propaganda vids on youtube and I've seen all of them and I can tell you that Sorta thing no longer works on Smart educated people, WE ARE NO LONGER IN THE 70s The Zionist lying Machine that came up with stuff like "Land without ppl" No longer fools anyone. We saw the numbers in lebanon around 1400 dead only 50 of them r Hezbollah.
This was actually recanted by the News Groups and Israel even apologized about this and also reported that the militants were not in or around the school!!!
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Even the UN has now admitted that that school was not hit. The area /outside/the school was hit. If Israel wanted to hit the school, it could have and would have. But it didn't. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself. There's a February 5 AFP article entitled "UN retracts claim deadly Israeli strike hit Gaza school."
It's Not just One School or hospital or Mosque They Bombed So many of them such As GAZA's Children Hospital amongst others and We lost Count after they bombed the 8th mosque.
lol @ 9:32 finkelstein: "that's the facts", ben ami: "yeah" -- the subtext of that single word? "finkelstein, you're always right -- throw me a bone, will you?" -- lol -- these two guys should have their own show
lukafafrenz 2 months ago
Norman Finkestein drops Ben Ami cold. If this was a fight, it would have been stopped.
ionevea 4 months ago 4
at 6:00...did shmolo really argue that everybody else is doing it?
MrAnymeansnecessary 5 months ago
Much better debate than the one with Douchewitz
desager1 6 months ago
State I mean.
TupadrePancho 7 months ago
First wow really good interview! Even Ben Ami cant contradict Finkelstein, this guy knows more about a Middle-East than a foreign minister! Holly shit! No wonder why he cant go to Israel! Thats why they are afraid of him, they cant battle with someone who persistently and relentlessly shows the simple truth: that Israel is illegal, irational and a terrorist country.
TupadrePancho 7 months ago
DEATH TO ISREAL.
1976jasse 9 months ago
A few points for people who intrested in intellegent debate on subject. Key points delevered by Ben Ami and disputed by NF is Camp David / Taba negociation ended becuase of palestinians.
His arguments: Israeli agreed with Clinton parameters and P-n did not. Israeli offer additional concessions in taba and hold talk open till last possible moment.
All this confirmed by Clinton
So what NF argue?
Israeli did not agree with Clinton Paramets. LIE
Israeli walk out. That is cheap demagogy.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Israel did walk out. Barrak responded with a 20 page letter of reservations against the Cl. Parameters.
Redcarpet01 8 months ago
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@Redcarpet01:"Israel did walk out. Barrak responded with a 20 page letter of reservations against the Cl. Parameters."
Are you kidding? We have been back and forth on this point. Here testimony of Clinton:
/watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
Israeli reservations were INSIDE of Clinton parameters. Clinton confirm Ben Ami testimony
Greywind30 8 months ago
Norman Finkelstein is quite an amazing person. Thank for standing up Mr. Finkelstein.
JohnnyHorton 9 months ago 8
Mr. Ben Amin is a great man. Very well read. Im going to pick up his book.
Ermal8711 9 months ago
Indeed there is consequences for wars, and global terror that has been going on for over 60 years should not go unpunished, Israel comes out of the blue because they have a book that tells them this their land so they kill and kick out a whole nation, they legalize torture which is considered by the UN a terrorist act, they destroy people's home which is considered by the UN a terrorist act, they call anyone who opposed them a terrorist, they have a nuclear weapon, what's more terrorizing then
MrWiseGuy1974 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrWiseGuy1974 "Israel comes out of the blue because they have a book"
Says who?
Israel come out of international agreement made between ALL concern parties:
Brits, LoN and Arab leaders of this time. Besides the "book" Jews had maintain presents in this lands for millenniums.
Here an attitude that really stand in a way of peace. How can you negotiate and establish trust with people who deny your existence?
Greywind30 9 months ago
Reality is ... war is not a joke and there is consequences for starting and losing war.
There should be a grave consequences for global terror that going on for 60 year.
You are crying about arabs refugees and casualties but there is other side. Jews also had refugees who were robe blind and forced out. They also lost people in war and only Finkemoron compare casualties. Israeli lost less people in open war too so? How does it prove them guilty?
Greywind30 10 months ago
@Greywind30 Ben Ami played the numbers game, as you would have noticed in this part. He complained about the number of Palestinians & Lebanese exchanged for Israeli prisoners. But as the professor pointed out, that's cherrypicking because Israel tends to always take lots of prisoners, mostly civilians.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01
NF play meaningless number game.
There are more arab casualties but does it mean they are right in this conflict and jews are wrong?
There were less Israeli casualties in open war like in 1973 so what?
It means one thing Israeli have efficient army and security and most importantly democratic system care about people unlike bloody dictators and crazy mullahs who see own people as dirt and cannon meat
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Assertion isn't proof. And your point is clearly false, as the Israeli military intentionally uses lethal indiscriminate weapons just to kill a single person in populated areas. Like cluster bombs, which is illegal. The fact we're not talking about 10s of thousands of civilian deaths one Israeli conflict after another is beside the point. To simply endanger or injure a civilian is illegal, correct? And even to mistakenly kill a non-combatant or protected person, is a crime. Right?
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01 "The fact we're not talking about 10s of thousands of civilian deaths one Israeli conflict after another is beside the point."
Actually it is my point. All this accusation in indiscriminate use of force and results ... very a few death.
For example in WW2 UK/US bomb Hamburg -50k casualties
But lets compare "effectiveness" of Israeli with PLO. Damour (lebanon) PLO killed 600 in one day with mare knifes/AK47 They took time on torture and rape. In gaza 2 week/1400. Compare this.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Yes, and those numbers are difficult to accept with the range of arms and choices available to the Israeli military. Liek if you want to use a smoke screen, why not use non-lethal smoke as opposed to White Phospherus? WP burns and can kill, and is illegal to use in populated areas. So why use it?
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01 " those numbers are difficult to accept with the range of arms and choices available to the Israeli military"
What choices are u talking about? Invade gaza with infantry and fight house to house? They done it already and guess what? Not only they pay higher price in human life but also in PR.
There is no way for Israel to please like of you but die. is not it?
Use more expencive weapon? Israeli already paying 60% taxes. They can't.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Was referring to smoke canisters, instead of White Phospherus.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01
Apparently WP is the best as smoke screen and in this role totally legal.
In anyway here is military expert on war in gaza
/watch?v=XJ2nYZyNpcU&feature=related
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Trouble is it can be used as a weapon. And that is illegal, and illegal if used with the possibility, or endangerment, of any persons. Yes, it can also be used as a flare to light the sky at night as well. But to use over populated areas is clearly illegal.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Already seen that. He makes nothing beyond assertions. No proof. A core assertion, that the campaign was because of 'rocket attacks' by Hamas is false. As he would know if he was an 'expert'. Israel government's own position was "The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire."
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01 "A core assertion, that the campaign was because of 'rocket"
Not really.
He compare how different countries deal with conflict like this. West countries.
You dont want compare how Russia deal with this kind of problem.
That's main point.
As for rogue organization it's old mantra (60yr) and Israeli dont buy it anymore and rightfully so.
Enough is enough. How long arab with hide from responsibility with "rogue terrorist" excuse.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 I was quoting the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They said "The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire."
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01
I'm not sure to what time period you refer but I'm talking about time period that lead to gaza bombing and does not make any difference. If hamas can't or does not want keep those group down then IDF has all rights to go after those terrorist.
IMHO Israeli went above and beyond in order to achieve peace. They even sit down with bloody killer like Arafat. There is no precedent in whole world history that loser dictate condition of peace like in this case.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 "IMHO Israeli went above and beyond in order to achieve peace". Since Israel broke the agreement IMMEDIATELY I can't fathom how you can draw that conclusion. They didn't even WANT a ceasefire remember. Israel's Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni stated in early December 2008 that although Israel wanted to create a temporary period of calm with Hamas, an extended truce “harms the Israeli strategic goal, empowers Hamas, and gives the impression that Israel recognizes the movement.”
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01 "Since Israel broke the agreement IMMEDIATELY I can't fathom how you can draw that conclusion."
Are u under impression that conflict started with hamas or its limited to hamas?
Hamas is bunch of fundamentalist who do not recognize Israel at all and do not represent significant portion of arabs. Yes I know they won election but so and Hitler at time and just like him they hold on power with violence.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 What you say is irrelevant, because I just disproved what you claimed earlier. Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas. And Israel's govt. didn't even WANT one. Contrary to your claims. Making irrelevant claims from Arafat to how Hamas keeps power only degrades your position.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01 "I just disproved what you claimed earlier. Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas"
Are you sure you argue with me and on subject?
Context of our dispure is set by scope of topic and it cover entire conflict with enphasize on talk between Arafat and Barak.
I understand you want to limit dispute to Israel with Hamas but I dont think it's justifieble limitation.
As for who broke sceacefire scecify time period but I'sure i did not say anything on this (in this conversation)
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 Right, so indiscriminate force is acceptable as long as the casualties produced aren't in the millions? That's a disgusting claim. Indiscriminate force is illegal, irrespective of how many casualties are produced. Period.
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
@Redcarpet01
u stick to label "in-t force" but is it really?
Fact. Israel has enough fire power to erase gaza (and wb and iran and syria etc)
that's fact.
but as u know in fact they less "effective" them a hundred PLO with knifes.
It is a fact.
put this two together and conclusion obvious for fair minded people.
Israeli use minimal force to avoid civ casualties.
I give u historical examples and numbers. u are trying to argue on emotions and labels. Shame
Greywind30 9 months ago
By what law can Israel invade Palestine ? Lol are you for real? Lol
MrWiseGuy1974 10 months ago
Did u not just listen to the video and the stats Norman have mentioned? Oh sorry I remember now you are simply a Zionist full of hatred who can't and don't want to listen yeah sorry my bad forgot about that lol
MrWiseGuy1974 10 months ago
@MrWiseGuy1974
Your Norman is too full of himself and has no idea about reality ... ops sorry I forget you are islamonazi and also have no idea about reality.
Greywind30 10 months ago
#5 You dont get it. Israel still a glass cannon and war 1973 is clear example of it and if it teach anything its to not became complacent .
I would like to know what human rights violation Israel committed that top Arab atrocity.
Greywind30 10 months ago
#1 I hate vulgarity but to be clear. FUCK UN. Its good for nothing stupid bureaucracy. 90% of members are despicable dictators and 10% opportunistic egocentric.
#2 99% of the problem is criminal partition by UN and UK in 1948
#3 Israel did not reject Taba. Arafat did. That's testimony of Clinton.
#4 Why Syria lost land in first place? They invade Israel in 67 and lost war. True by law you can't acquire land by force. By what law you can invade countries without consequences? Is it game?
Greywind30 10 months ago
Well, U.N REs 242 allows for land swap on the Jordanian border but requires Israel to give back Gaza, West Bank, all of Jerusalem and allow safe passage between territories. Why is that so bad? Palestinians made offers in Camp David and Taba to only have a small militia and police force active in territories, Israel rejected. Israel wants recognition? Pali's said you don't recognize us. Israel wants a Jewish state, which means Arabs would be second class citizens. That's another big problem.
senortonyful 10 months ago
Do you realize that war was from 73? Please do some research on the strength of Israeli's military today. Along with total support by U.S. Do you also remember what the fat guy said at the beginning, this is Syrian land. Why did Syria invade? Because the Israeli's wouldn't give back their land. The Golan Heights caused a problem. And it doesn't stand as a credit to Israel to give back Sinai. It was stolen in the first place. Also how many problems has Israel had with Egypt since then?
senortonyful 10 months ago
Well, the laws that Israel is in violation of are International Laws based on the U.N Charter and various resolutions along with the Geneva Convention. Those are real laws, not just suggestions and they apply. Israeli human rights violations against Pali's tower of those committed by Pali's and Arabs against Israelis, that's a simple matter of fact that isn't even disputed by Israel.The U.S did not claim Germany for itself. I don't see how you can't make that distinction.
senortonyful 10 months ago
I really need to understand your side. Do you, or do you not agree that Israel is in flagrant violation of international law? What I'm really unsure of is, if there were a hypothetical peace, where any aggressive behavior, speech anything against Israel was stopped, would you then say that Israel must give back Palestinian land? Your argument is that Israel needs to occupy Pali land and commit terrible human rights violations for there own safety? You really haven't stated your case very clearly
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
"Do you, or do you not agree that Israel is in flagrant violation of international law?"
I'm no layer and frankly I dont see this conflict from legal point of view.
By what law Israel should just give up occupy land without any condition?
US left Germany after it submit 100%
Israel return majority of land to PA as advance and how it was repaid?
As for terrible human rights anything done by Israeli is child play compare to atrocities of arabs.
Give me an example of terrible.
Greywind30 10 months ago
@senortonyful
My point of view is .. There should be a major land swap to make both state valid. Palestinian state should be demilitarize. Refugee FROM BOTH sides should be compensated and any jewish settlement embedded on Palestinian land removed and turn to arabs who live in Israel at moment. Jerusalem should be divided. Jewish side to jews and arab side to international control. IMHO.
Greywind30 10 months ago
Backing does not mean proxy. Even Hamas itself admits that it receives funding so that it may fight Israel. If Pali didn't need to fight Israel it probably wouldn't allow pressuring from Iran to constantly fight back against Israel. Being under attack doesn't give you carte blanche to break laws. What they are doing is illegal even under the circumstances which you have overblown and only hurting their cause. Have you not read any of the literature on this subject? Israel is hurting itself.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful "Backing does not mean proxy"
"What about the numerous cease fires that Hamas has fervently adhered to only to be broken by Israel"
Huh?
Do you realize that "cease fire" is a TEMPORARY agreement during WAR and any attempt to use it to gain advantage is deal breaker?
What about last coordinated attack with massacre of jewish family, bombing Jerusalem and missile attacks? What about ship with missiles intercepted by Israel?
You dont understand nature of this war.
Greywind30 10 months ago
@senortonyful
BTW did you see clip I link about security req.?
Here is other clip what happen when Israel fail act in advance and weapon in war
/watch?v=CBIKb1I-Svk
Note Israeli used old British tanks no longer in UK service. Modified and rebuild by Israeli.
Greywind30 10 months ago
Are you just trying to take my words out of context? I didn't say anything about the winner always being guilty nor did I even imply it. So because there are threats to Israel's safety Palestine can never be free? What about the numerous cease fires that Hamas has fervently adhered to only to be broken by Israel. Do some research on the buildup to the massacre in Gaza. Even Israel admits that Hamas stuck to the cease fire and that they(Israel)broke the peace by killing six Hamas leaders.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful: "You still haven't shown the connection between ten miles of illegally occupied territory and safety."
Watch this
/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0
Greywind30 10 months ago
You still haven't shown the connection between ten miles of illegally occupied territory and safety. Relinquishing their illicit claims would improve their security status. 1. Many threats would abate(those simply wanting statehood) 2. Once Israel is in compliance it can lobby world comm. for help. Which means sanctions, no fly-zones, and since they will no longer be an aggressor, a greater amount of military funding. U.S currently gives arms illegally.
senortonyful 10 months ago
I agree there's a connection, I don't agree that Pali leadership is a proxy. There are also other secular threats that merely want compliance with international law and Pali statehood. You still have yet to show the connection between Israels addition of 10 miles of border to there survival. In your mind are these superpowers not able to cross these ten miles. Do you not think it would be better to come into compliance with intl law and lobby the world community for help with security?
senortonyful 10 months ago
Israel can build walls all day long on their legally recognized borders. There's no opposition to that. Yes there's been lots of wars. Not quite a war of attrition since the vast vast majority of blood is on Israeli hands, including civilians. And yes it was illegal for Russia to occupy Germany, The U.S relinquished germany after a year but Russia was in violation of intl law and 20 years ago given up. Just because countries do things doesn't make it right.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
"since the vast vast majority of blood is on Israeli hands, including civilians"
So in fight whoever won is guilty? Sure Israel has less casualties no thank to arabs. They try hard to hit specifically civilian preferentially kids. Hence wall and as any defensive structure IN WAR it build without regard to borders. It is not problem for peace. Wall can be removed and Israeli can remove settlements too.
US left Germany after installing gov and displacing millions of german
Greywind30 10 months ago
I'd be glad to talk about historical injustices of the Jews in Arab lands and I certainly don't deny them. What this vid was about was the Palestinian crisis. I'll repeat myself, the majority of Arab/Islamic regimes are terrible. Most Palestinian leadership has backing from enemies of Israel. Once again you haven't answered why Israel should not be held to international standards of law. Instead of telling me why my logic is flawed please just refute the main question we're talking about.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful "you haven't answered why Israel should not be held to international standards of law"
Here is an answer:
"I'll repeat myself, the majority of Arab/Islamic regimes are terrible. Most Palestinian leadership has backing from enemies of Israel"
Because they are as you say terrible and dont follow any int'l law.
Imagine you came for a game of tennis and your "partner" came with sword for a game "cut your head"
I dont know about you but I would not limit myself to tennis rules
Greywind30 10 months ago
Your logic not just invert its crazy.
Fact is Israel had over 60yr of conflict with Arabs. 3 open wars. Global terror campaign. War of attrition. Ugly conflict. Arabs were very open in regard what they want to do with jews. And you are asking why Israel occupy WB/Gaza?
Why US/UK/Russia occupy Germany? Should not they just stop on German borders?
Why Israeli make a wall? Should not suicide bombers have a free access to bomb kindergartens?
Greywind30 10 months ago
I didn't mean to be one-sided I just thought you were asking about Palestinian refugees. I have not once denied that other countries are involved, in fact I have brought them up several times, I have not once denied that Hamas is controlled in part by Iran, in fact I've brought it up. Several times as a matter of fact. I am quite aware of the treacherous arab regimes and have brought it up several times. Don't tell me my logic is flawed when you're completely ignoring what I've said.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
If you agree to this points then you know Israel face threat not from WB/Gaza but Syria/Iran and possibly Egypt/Jordan/SA etc.
It's not a joke threat.
If you agree they are unstable and treacherous how can you say that Israel can jeopardize security?
Make no mistake Israel in '73 borders survived only because it control Sinai.
Only when Arab countries switch from dictators and mulahs to democracy and stop antisemetic brainwash only then with participation of all involved
Greywind30 10 months ago
"You have yet to point out why my logic is narrow or invert."
Your logic is narrow because it is not Israel vs Palestinian conflict.
Its regional conflict with WORLD SUPER POWERS involved.
With unstable and treacherous arabs regimes around.
With brainwashed masses.
Fact is Hamas is front for powerful states and you ignore it.
Your logic invert because tiny Israel from your point is Goliath and Arab/Islam coalition is David! Its crazy!
Greywind30 10 months ago
Why is the occupation necessary? Why is destroying homes to build illegal settlements necessary? Why is hostage taking necessary? Why is torture necessary? Why is illegal containment wall necessary? Why is blocking food and medical aid necessary? And please don't quote I.D.F sources. Why are all these things necessary to the survival of Israel. The quaran sucks. Arab dictators are ass holes. Israel is a small country. None of that explains why those things are necessary. Why is my view wrong?
senortonyful 10 months ago
Which by the way in the Oslo accords and one other since which I can't think of right now. The Palestinians offered Israeli's some sort of advanced warning system within territories. I don't know what you're getting at with the refugees but the U.N says around 8-9 hundred thousand 48 refugees. About 5-6 million today of which estimates show only 5-10% would invoke right of return. You've evaded the question time after time and given me all sorts of hypotheticals.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
"U.N says around 8-9 hundred thousand 48 refugees"
About 7-800k of ARAB refugees. Sure. You dont even know about 6-700k of jewish refugees
Google "Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim lands".
Arabs took from jews land 4x of entire Israel and that's only land.
That's just to show how one sided and bias your view is.
Greywind30 10 months ago
You have yet to point out why my logic is narrow or invert. You bring up other issues that are relevant to the conflict but not what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm aware Israel is small, Palestine is smaller. Yet it is by far the strongest military force in the region with a nuclear arsenal. It will probably not be over run since it has the strongest military in the world backing it. I really wonder the logistic necessity of another ten miles of border. Cont.
senortonyful 10 months ago
If you can't act sensible and say why Israel will be destroyed if it stops massacring civilians at a 100 to 1 ratio like the battle of Gaza. Or justify building a wall with remote machine gun turrets. Or arrest people for stealing water. Then I'm done. I've tried to have a sensible debate over the past few days and have gotten no where. You have two lines "israel will be destroyed" and "arabs suck". That's all you've said. Tell me why Israel will be destroyed when palistinians have statehood.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
You stubbornly stick to narrow view of conflict and invert logic.
Let me ask you a few question.
#1. Do you realize that Israel as it is a "glass cannon" its really tiny country that can be overrun within hours. It heavily rely on advance warning to mobilize army and switch whole country in war mode. In 67 border and modern weapon it will be totally defenseless.
#2. Tell me number of refugees in wake of 1948 war. (without descendants)
Greywind30 10 months ago
I really feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm not trying to defend the Arabs as a whole. I'm trying to defend the Palestinians. Yes many of there leaders are crap. The Goldstone Report as well as many other reports say there was no human shielding. You can't just claim human shielding with no evidence. If fighting takes place in an urban area that doesn't mean human shielding. That's Israels claim when it drops a bomb haphazardly and kills a shit load of people. Read the evidence.
senortonyful 10 months ago
You have to accept that Hamas is just as responsible for the civilian casualties for using civilians as human shields. Stockpiling weapons on urban areas etc...
SID480 10 months ago
@SID480 I'm assuming you're referring to the Gaza Conflict, where the human shields claims were recently made. Numerous investigations by human rights organizations and the U.N's Goldstone Report determined that there was no transfer of civilian population for use as human shields. The claim about human shields and stock-piling is often made due to the fact that the fighting occurred in populated areas. BTW, the ratio of civilian casualties was 400:1 with Israel losing the 1.
senortonyful 10 months ago
@senortonyful
Entire Gaza is human shield and proverbial sacrificial sheep.
Mulas, bloody dictators and medieval kings brainwash and sacrifice those poor bastards for a sake of PR.
It takes mind of brainwashed masses from social injustices and bankruptcy of religion who on one hand has messianic goals but in fact keeping almost 2B people in dark.
Explain to me why arabs who give chemistry, algebra etc etc are backward people with 0 contribution for about 1000 yr?
Greywind30 10 months ago
Sholomo ben ami is sooooo CUTE. I feel so bad for him, Finkelstein did great.
bfoaliali 11 months ago
Didn't America legalize house demolitions? Yes, they demolished all of the Native Americans. So Finklestei is a settler, please go back to Europe.
middlemanscaggs 11 months ago
NF "International law apply to everyone or nobody"
That's right. I agree. If Arab countries do not apply any law to Israel why Israel should be hold to the letter of law?
When Israel take prisoners int'l organizations have access to them while terrorist keep Israeli prisoners in defiance to elementary rights
It is Arab who start war for land so why Israel should be blame when they took land in course of war that was forced upon them
Greywind30 11 months ago
Another sionist coward called out on his lies. Thank you Mr Finkelstein.
surlagachette2 11 months ago
I love both ...... classy conversation .
by the way I am Arab Muslim.
azzamco1 1 year ago
It is true that Israel has broken international law, but I can't think of an Arab/muslim country that isn't doing the same thing right now. I definitely don't agree with the way Israel is behaving. I'm American and if I had to choose to live in Israel or any other middle eastern country, I would without a doubt pick Israel simply based on domestic policy and civil liberties. I mean I can't honestly think of a muslim country that doesn't abuse international human rights and is a democracy?
ryanlk 1 year ago
@ryanlk
you can't think of a Jewish Country like that either right?
wono222 1 year ago
@wono222 Well considering there is only 1 Jewish country, even so, I would much rather live under the rule of the Israeli government than any other muslim country I can think of??? Israel treats its own people far better than most muslim countries, the part that bothers me about israel is its foreign policy.
ryanlk 1 year ago
@ryanlk
does "it's own people" include the original inhabitants and Palestinians??
the81kid 11 months ago
Actually Mr Ben Ami, Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, as a means of coercion, Terror, in this sense, is violent or destructive acts, carried out by guerrillas / and or people / governments in order to intimidate a population, or government into granting their demands. Now, looking at the current situation, Israel is using terrorism to intimidate the indigenous population, and ultimately insink enough fear into them, that the only choice is escape (Israels demands that is).
VirtuosoX1 1 year ago
BEN AMI GETS OWNED!....
there should be more men like Norman Finkelstein.... can it be you???!!
killah666786 1 year ago
Between 8.25 - 8.37 Finkelstein states international Law should apply to everyone which i agree it should. Does Mr Finkelstein though do as much research on Israels neighbours in the Middle East? All Dictatorships and Theocracies with terrible human rights records and very little freedom of the press. WHY is Israel his sole focus of Intersest on these matters. Ben Ami rightly points out that Israel situation should be taken in the context that it is not dealing with raesonable states = Swe Nor
jacksullivanov1 1 year ago
Im actually beginning to feel bad for Ben Ami, he does feel attacked as an Israeli and he wishes his own country would catch up to what he already knows.
TeacherTudi 1 year ago
it's unfortunate that civilians day, as long as it's not intentional or collateral...
rubenzy 1 year ago
@rubenzy especially if they are Israeli?
urbanguerrilla64 1 year ago
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
iqsquared 1 year ago
Finelstein is out of this world OMG he is a walking wikipedia on Israel and International law
zebrarraz 1 year ago 25
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Finkelstein - what a prick. Go criticize Syrian torture. Go criticize Egyptian torture. Maybe you'd prefer if Israel was an authoritarian state? Leave the only democracy in the Middle East alone.
tomasito1234567 1 year ago
@tomasito1234567 we're not discussing syrian or egyptian torture. we're discussing israeli torture.
all those examples are illegal under international law. just because we are talking about israel in this debate DOES NOT MEAN we condone torture anywhere else.
Syphex 1 year ago
@Syphex I tried to thumbs up you but did the opposite. No way to undo it. :o(
TeacherTudi 1 year ago
Both men conducted themselves very well. Until Shlomo when asked about torture immediately diverted to a "Well these countries did it too" approach, I didn't really like that. Finkelestein has guts to take this stand against Israel considering the reception criticism of that kind gets. Ben Ami on the other hand is still tied to Israel politically (not directly) but I would guess he is trying not to alienate his reader base as well as alienate himself from Israel.
123backinyerface 1 year ago
you know when people lie...
musiciankara 1 year ago
I respect your dignity and honest Mr. NormanFinkelstein.. Being honest you should be rewarded by Nobel Prize for speaking out the truth as a Jew. I am really looking forward to buying your books...
61eminem 1 year ago 21
@61eminem the nobel price is rewarded mostly to corrupt warmongering puppets like obama,so finkelstein deserves something better then that shit price.he is a man of valor and great courage ,he stands alone with a few others against the tyrannic racist state of israhell
sheyon1000 6 months ago 2
I respect your dignity and honest Mr. NormanFinkelstein.. Being honest you should be rewarded by Nobel Prize for speaking out the truth as a Jew. I am really looking forward to buying your books...
61eminem 1 year ago
What a brilliant, brave person Norman is. Most people would be scared shitless of rabid dog MOSSAD, to publicly denounce Israel's crimes against humanity.
sadigov 1 year ago
ddd
khaledafy 1 year ago
finkelstein show us who is the evil in middle east with so many evidence :
Israel
SASHA1536 1 year ago
Does Israel imprison women and children too? I'm wondering if Israel tortures Arab women as well as men. Do they torture children? How would they torture them? Sleep deprivation or what. Certainly nothing that would leave evidence.
JohnnyRock2000 1 year ago
Finkelstein lets nothing false slide by....
SaintsXLIVchamps 1 year ago
Israel has no soul anymore. It is a nation of insane racist bigots running around in circles congratulating themselves on being the Master race. They are insane. Driven mad by media propaganda and politicians, military and the rotten bureaucracy that has festered and grown up around the most possessed and evil of them
gunthaarz 1 year ago
@gunthaarz And how do you conclude this? You write several opinionated phrases, one after the other, but provide no proof of how you came to your conclusions, and why.
The evil I discover comes from your mind, and shows up in your comments.
stephanepereire 1 year ago
@stephanepereire - Watch Gilat Atzmon's videos you will understand what peace is. How my protests are more evil than the Israeli military killing on 400 children in 2009.
gunthaarz 1 year ago
@gunthaarz
that describes a small minority of extremists, who, unfortunately have disproportionate influence on Israeli politics and political culture. the rest of the population is divided.
pazomblez 1 year ago
Finkelstein is owning Ben Ami's ass. Damn, that s.o.b. is sharp. He makes me want to buy every book he's written.
frenchman203 1 year ago 6
long live finkelstein!
asrafoo 1 year ago
I'm really enjoying watching this - thanks for posting it!
happyinnanaimo 1 year ago
Did Shlomo Ben Ami just try to justify torture? 8:00
wow ! that is a new low ..
I really did think he was somewhat reasonable that was until he tried to justify torture .. you don't justify torture no matter what, no matter what!
how could anyone who is reasonable, still believe Israel's propaganda after watching this debate.. Shame on the US, shame on the whole world for not taking action against such states .. the world does not Israel as much as it did not need Sadam and Taliban ..
DELFIZZO 1 year ago 4
One thing is absolutely certain in this life. That is - You Don't Fuck With Norman Finkelstein. He is a human Encyclopedia and he will own your ass.
6Ott7 1 year ago 18
NF is a wonderful person and a great scholar. One can only respect and admire such a man.
I liked Dr. Ben Ami as well. A breath of fresh air coming for once from the pro-Israel side! He has good breeding and is an honest and reasonable person. In fact, he's the antithesis of the typical and rather maniacal attack dogs NF has to deal with when discussing these issues. I wish him well!
alecrebel 1 year ago 6
What "attack dogs" are you referring to?
Of course, you'll say Alan Dershowitz. I don't agree, but ok; that's 1. Who are the other "attack dogs"?
solpapisolmook 1 year ago
@solpapisolmook
The same attack dogs that banned him from Israel for 10 years perhaps?
Gotta be more than one right?
Junk4Q2 1 year ago 2
@Junk4Q2 He forfeitted his rights to visit Israel when he met with Hizballah members. You shouldn't be allowed in the US if you visit al Qaida members, so it works the same there. That's common sense, not "attack dogs," you idiot.
solpapisolmook 1 year ago
@solpapisolmook
Common sense appears to be something you lack. If you had any you would understand that for all the hype about al quaida that the biggest al quaida are with the CIA, and Israel. So is the US going to kick out all the jews and CIA that visit with them? Of course you will spout on about how there are no fake al quaida but logic dictates otherwise. You sir are the idiot.
Junk4Q2 1 year ago
There was state terrorism against Egypt. Israel bombed civilian targets in the depth of Egypt. Bahr Al Baqar, in which a children school was bombed, and Abu Zabal in which a workers factory was bombed.
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago 4
That happened during a war called the "War of attrition" in the late 60s. Dont you think if they really intended to spread terror they would have spread more of it?
Who would prevent them from doing so? The 10,000 Soviet advisors stationed in Egypt? Maybe the Soviet pilots supporting Egyptian airforce? I dont think so.
How many times did the "Allies" hit civilians in Afghanistan for example? They get embarrassed all the time when it repeatedly happens despite all the applied modern tech.
Wrath0fKhan 2 years ago
Ben Ami *conveniently* has no knowledge of the "numbers" that Finkelstein makes us aware of
dancebaby808 2 years ago 27
@dancebaby808 Sages said tha "figures never lie, but liars always figure" - so quoting numbers, as Norman Finkelstein does, is is not proof of the correctness of his argument, nor proof that he has outwitted Shlomo Ben-Ami.
Just the opposite, though a proficient debater, Norman Finkelstein twists semi-fact to create a tenuous argument that blurs the truth - and truth is relative, not absolute, as numbers are absolute.
stephanepereire 1 year ago
@dancebaby808 Yup, like reading human rights reports is difficult.....
Redcarpet01 9 months ago
Israel isn't the only country that uses house demolitions. It's was also used in Iraq, Vietnam, heck, even Darfur, as well as the Caucasian conflicts and the Yugoslav wars.
OBZ 2 years ago
That's the point. The countries that you mentioned, minus israel, WERE(PAST TENSE) doing this, if this were true. Israel has and is STILL engaging in this kind of destructive and illegal activity.
machrooha08 2 years ago 2
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I read a little bit about house demolitions and their purpose. It's not just a random punishment to make a family feel like shit. This is going to sound a bit ridiculous, but hey, that's why it's done:
Israel threatens to destroy houses of terrorists (mainly suicide bombers), and sometimes their families go as far as begging Israel not to do it, and sometimes it even prevents the terrorists from committing their planned acts of terror.
OBZ 2 years ago
And who convicts these so-called terrorists? Are they proven to be terrorists?
Hold on though:
Last week, when Palestinian Arabs were kicked out of their homes in East Jerusalem and Israelis walked in hours later, you're saying the Arabs were terrorists?
The settlement of Har Homa was built over a Palestinian neighbourhood. You're saying the whole neighbourhood was full of terrorists.
You should try stand up comedy lol.
mingoi313 2 years ago
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There's a difference between demolishing (or threatening to demolish) a terrorist's home to prevent an attack and demolishing an entire neighborhood to create a new one. One of them I am in favor of, and the other I'm not in favor of. The one in which I'm not in favor of is determined in the Israel High Court, and many times they rule in favor of Palestinians, unless they can't provide enough evidence that they're right.
Btw, in 2005 they ended their use of House Demolition as a punishment.
OBZ 2 years ago
OK
Let us go through this slowly then. When a neighbourhood is demolished, it is illegal? What has been done to return the rights of those who have been treated unjustly and illegaly by the state?
mingoi313 2 years ago
And I don't support the East Jerusalem case which Israel concluded, but it is not a form of house demolition as a punishment.
OBZ 2 years ago
Har Homa (Jabal Abou Ghneim) is in what is legally defined as East Jerusalem.
House demolition is a tactic. I should also add, ine that is in and of itself ILLEGAL. Show me one source that legalizes house demolitions.
If you can't find me a source for the above, whether or not the Israeli High Court supports these demolitions - even if under the pretext of fighting "terrorism" - they would still be illegal. The Israeli High Court has in the past sanctioned torture, taking of hostages etc.
mingoi313 2 years ago
I believe I stated that in 2005 they demolished it.
OBZ 2 years ago
If I am not mistaken, Zionists claimed a right over Judea and Samaria based on a 2,000 year old (plus) right.
2005 is like 4 years ago only!
mingoi313 2 years ago 2
Samaria, belongs to Samritans
who are Palestinians today...
skabudaw1 2 years ago
@OBZ Demolition was acknowledged as a legal tool used by the British during the mandate - Britain cleared houses in Jaffa, with no indignation from the international press - it was done in response to Arab riots, and killings of British troops enforcing mandate law.
In fact, right, or not, Israel chose to maintain mandate law in the territories, rather than enforce Israeli law on non-Israelies.
stephanepereire 1 year ago
its such a ridiculous allegation. to punish the majority for one's fault!!!!!!. and its resistance not terror.
sarab2009 2 years ago 6
Ouch, Finkelstein uses B'tselem's reports. Bad idea:
camera . org /index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=4&x_outlet=12&x_article=1265
OBZ 2 years ago
WOW. You're so incredibly intelligent! CAMERA!
Dude, if you're not in the business of reading stuff, I'd advise you to watch Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land.
CAMERA is mentioned rather explicitly, and I should add with visual representation to assist comprehension.
mingoi313 2 years ago
CAMERA not good enough for you? Ok.
ngo-monitor . org / article . php ?id=1411
OBZ 2 years ago
Dude, if it makes you happy by posting pro-Israel "war crimes" human rights orgs, be my guest. lol
According to you, any human rights org that criticizes Israel is somehow anti-semitic.
Feel free to keep living in that bubble of yours.
mingoi313 2 years ago
Comment removed
zahoury 2 years ago
Shlomo is a lil SLOW for Dr. Finkelstein.
Dr. Finkelstein for President! this guy is awesome!
faheemthedream2007 2 years ago 4
Jews are our cousins, Arabs cousins. Finkelstein is not a unique case, there are many Jews like him. We have a lot of similarities. DO NOT CRITICIZE JEWS, criticize Zionists and Israeli politics.
2000jean 2 years ago 4
i loveeee Normaannnnnn :), 7abbeeeeeeeeeeet....he is amazing
RaMrOuM23 2 years ago
Norman is a genius
kureem 2 years ago
Finkelstein is Bruce Lee incarnation
I am convinced day by day
6:42
bananito2 2 years ago
The question is: should we wait to a inminent attack in our face to start action?
The operation of Zionists is: bully the "leaders" of some nation to give them the control and hide that control from the masses.
We all can agree a politician is more often a weak in principles "money whore" individual, than a courageous human rights fighter willing to sacrifice himself for the nation or people. It is time for action, but lets not take on a regular "Moshe" we need to get rid of heads like banks
bananito2 2 years ago
God bless u Prof. Norman
NazarethR 2 years ago 5
Israel is not a vulnerable baby anymore. Nor is it an inncocent child. Nor is it a teenager for which its parents are responsible. Israel is 60 years old and can either keep playing senile and die OR do justice and live forever. That is not only in their own interest: the conflict has such far stretching consequences that it is in the interest of the everybody in the world that Israel takes responsability and does justice.
whauffend 2 years ago 5
I agree 1000000%.
juliaisafilmbuff123 2 years ago
Here is a statement made by one of Israel's leading military analysts:
"The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposefully and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposefully attacked civilian targets"
MaxyPadUltra 2 years ago
I can't believe how cilivized this debate is compared to the Finklestein/Dershowitz debate... shame on Alan
degas5000 2 years ago 4
I know right?
Watch Douchewitz's debate with Chomsky. You want to punch that asshole in the face (he yells over Chomsky and is rude as hell).
juliaisafilmbuff123 2 years ago
Poor Dershowitz. He still has not regained his sanity since he lost his mind in that debate. But be sympathetic: suppose YOUR book were systematically torn apart by Finkelstein... Deshowitz will be haunted forever by that event. Serves him right for facilitating the rapture. He deserves life for disrespecting life.
whauffend 2 years ago 3
Ben Ami is hopelessly clutching at straws to attempt to justify completely illegal Israeli actions.
Playing the victim, like an evilly spoilt child, saying, "it's different for Israel", -
when the only reason Israel can get away with such monstrous violations against International Law is because America funds their sickness.
Finkelstein nailed him.
idasputem 2 years ago 27
well it is different for israel, and ben ami gives a pretty good analysis as to why that is.
DPerrone99 1 year ago
What Shlomo Ben-Ami is missing here is the fact that Israel would demolish Palestinian homes, and would respond militarily if the residents resist.
yassinespectrum 2 years ago 11
crime is a crime,and what this ben ami says means israael is ABOVE THE INTERNATIONA LAW. shame on mr ben ami
jimanHK 2 years ago 13
exactly my thinking. i think it can not be any more obvious than this video on how things really are. in my eyes mr ben ami is a disgrace.
finalChoice 2 years ago 7
ben ami-y don`t you recognize the facts?
jimanHK 2 years ago 5
ben ami know every single word norman said is the truth :)
izedeen 2 years ago 3
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most jews are criminals and the supporters of israel have blood on their hands. jew bastards
dsr99 3 years ago
You are wrong, dsr99, the Zionists are the criminals, not the Jews; although presently the majority of Jews is unfortunately supporting Zionism; it's not a matter of religion nor race, it's a political matter. Long live Palestina!
albertoscherillo 3 years ago 2
finkelstein is as right as you are wrong.
finalChoice 2 years ago 9
Brilliantly illuminating debate. Should be required viewing for all Americans.
GregsDailyVlog 3 years ago 11
Israel Targeted a UN school in Gaza just yesterday with many refugees in it and killed around 40 innocents, Israel claimed that there where Terrorists in the building Launching Rockets and The UN denies Israel's claims.
hanysal 3 years ago 7
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hanysal - the ACTUAL FOOTAGE of them firing it proves Israel's point!
katomeoawa 3 years ago
Actually that was Fake propaganda by thier Huge PR relations campaigne and this is why they disabeled the comments on each of thier Propaganda vids on youtube and I've seen all of them and I can tell you that Sorta thing no longer works on Smart educated people, WE ARE NO LONGER IN THE 70s The Zionist lying Machine that came up with stuff like "Land without ppl" No longer fools anyone. We saw the numbers in lebanon around 1400 dead only 50 of them r Hezbollah.
hanysal 3 years ago 5
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witnesses saw hamas fire from the area...reported by both the ap and ny times
there are hamas videos of them firing mortars and rockets from civilian areas
they think their own people are just fodder
so israel did them a favor and proved that they are just fodder
ALLAH HU AKBAR
brabon1 3 years ago
This was actually recanted by the News Groups and Israel even apologized about this and also reported that the militants were not in or around the school!!!
panjsheri 3 years ago
wrong
reports are saying that the mortar fired missed its target by 90 feet
90 feet really isnt missing the target...and firing 90 feet from a school is pretty damn close
eat shit and die
brabon1 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Even the UN has now admitted that that school was not hit. The area /outside/the school was hit. If Israel wanted to hit the school, it could have and would have. But it didn't. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself. There's a February 5 AFP article entitled "UN retracts claim deadly Israeli strike hit Gaza school."
jprg1966 2 years ago
It's Not just One School or hospital or Mosque They Bombed So many of them such As GAZA's Children Hospital amongst others and We lost Count after they bombed the 8th mosque.
hanysal 2 years ago 10