Corporate Lies and the Original Dixieland Jazz Band

[mikemcgee]

if you were in person listening to the real band it would have better fidelity than the record at the time. That was a picture of Irene and Vernon castle

[FunnnnnnnnnnnnnnY]

Interesting...what would there be besides 78 pre 1920?

[luvmyrecords]

Trouble is, you've got Tiger Rag in the key centers of concert B (first section) and then E major (second section). I am a full time professional clarinet player, and while I'm sure the guys could play here, it wouldn't be a normal, work-a-day way to go. I've seen Larry Shield's clarinet - it's amazing he could play anything on it. St. Louis Blues is now in Db - also not a common key in those days.

[StevenDFenrich]

Listen to Edward's trombone slides at :22. At the adjusted speed, he slides from (concert) D natural to G natural. A trombone cannot make such a slide without a flow break.

[TuberOnTheLoose]

Interesting to see this discussion, which I have had before with some other fans of old jazz. At 78 rpms a 10" disc can only record about 3 1/2 minutes of music (which became the industry standard for decades). If a song was slightly longer they could slow down the disc during recording to make it last longer, but when played on a phonograph it just sounds a little off because it is faster than normal. I suggest the possibility early recording equipment may not have been mechanically precise.

[StevenDFenrich]

It sounds slightly more authentic at a slower speed, but I think you're overdoing it - the singing on Royal Garden Blues sounds too baritone. A settlement of your fine argument may rest in some Louisianan museum in the form of Sbarbaro's (no red line, youtube, that's how the man spelled his name thank you) drum kit - I agree with the post that suggests a cymbal crash decay comparison.

[KawhackitaRag]

@StevenDFenrich Yes, why not go find Tony Sbarbaro's chinese crash cymbal and make a comparison with the record? Although I agree the record may be a little fast the way it is normally played... I think it sounds unnaturally slow here, and the musical instruments also do not sound quite natural. This is hard to put into words, but you can be pretty sure a recording is at the correct speed when the musical instruments sound the most NATURAL (with vocalists, this is even easier to tell).

[halvickery]

There are several recordings right here on YouTube that blast your theory out of the water. The vocalist on Royal Garden Blues was by Al Bernard. I've found at least three electrically recorded vocals by Bernard made in the late '20s that show that he is indeed a tenor, and not a baritone as your slowed down vesion of RGB would have us believe.

[Zefrenm]

Before 1921 DJ la ROcca and larry shields only played thier tunes in C and D major, and for the jazz players who don't read thier parts from Piano Sheet music thats Bb and F major and thier modulation to Eb & F. Henry and Ragas did know other keys but had to play in the keys they all could play. Most of thier music was never written down until Sheet music co.'s song pluggers arranged the tunes to musically acceptable Keys.

[Zefrenm]

@Zefrenm "Bb and D major"  i ment

[mooncalfwilliams]

Your premise regarding tempo is all wrong. It clearly states on the Victor label that Tiger Rag was a "One-step," which is a faster tempo than a foxtrot.

The original recording is played, by the band, in Bb-Eb-Ab, which are the keys that nearly every band since the ODJB have played the tune. True there are early recordings with speed problems, but this is not one of them.

[donnaradin]

Sounds good at this tempo, imho.

[lesterwyoung]

I think it extremely unlikely that LaRocca and bandmates could only play in C and D. They would be much more likely to favour the "flat" keys such as F,Bb, Eb and Ab.

D would be very tricky on clarinet, particularly at up-tempos.

[Zefrenm]

@lesterwyoung It's documented that The ODJB members didn't read sheet music until after returning from europe. Even H Ragas (painist who had and most musical knowledge) had to use Corperate song pluggers to write his music down. Livery stable blues and Barnyards blues got DJ La Rocca and Henry Alcide in trouble because of that and i think Edwards remembers a story in which they were recording Tiger Rag for vocalion but La rocca started in D instead of C.

[Zefrenm]

@lesterwyoung And as for the Larry Shield's Clarinet. He would have been playing a Clairnet keyed with the Albert System. Which i believe has no problems with D major and uptempos. Listen to the Greek or Klezmer music.

watch?v=FvyqPAb18BM & watch?v=xHDxAO4hsYA

[robchalfen]

my understanding is that Victor acoustics were recorded at 76.59 rpm

[Jiggys78s]

You're right, the early recordings were arranged for sounding good on record player technology of the day. They played fast and loud in the studio. So it's hard to get an authentic sound of music from the turn of the century off an early record. They may have fudged the speed as well. Thanks for the demos. :D

[zjsprout]

To me, the key is the sound of the cymbal decay. You can't manipulate that with acoustic era technology, and at this speed the cymbals sound more like a slow hiss than a percussion instrument. I agree with your hypothesis, but I think the speed used here is too slow. Still, interesting and valid, imho. Thanks!

[Zefrenm]

@zjsprout the hypothsis was drafted years ago before i had a copy of the songs in question. And i didn't know then that La roca and band mates could only play in the key of c and d before his trip to europe. then search "original dixieland jazz band and zefrenm" and see the new treatments, ans then watch "Viva la Rocca"

[zjsprout]

I think the reference point is the decay of the cymbal crash, a sound everyone is familiar with. There's no way to alter that with the acoustic recording technique. While I agree with your hypothesis, I also think that the sound of percussion instruments is pretty fixed, and at this speed, you're more than a bit slow, but is sure is plausible they were speeded up to make them sound more 'peppy' in the era jargon. Keep up the good work!

[rapper1918]

too slow. No offense, but I think that your disc records are played at much too slow speed. The Tiger Rag is a fast performance, and this sound weird here. Is my opinion, maybe Im not right.

Respect.

[bobparis]

MUCH too slow. Most Victor acoustics are either about 74 or about 76 rpm, almost as though they used only two lathes--and one was 74 rpm and the other was 76.

[Zefrenm]

I Knew it! 9 times out of ten 74 rpms seemed right. thanks for the info. the Video is dated almost two years old but it gets great information from everyone. It doesn't help that ODJB was famous for transposing on the spot so sometimes even if i get the right speed it more ofren times will be flat. by three or two steps.

[borthamster]

Your theory is perhaps a bit interesting, but totally wrong. There is absolutely no way these recording were played at the sluggish speed you attempt to suggest in these videos. Sorry, but you're just off target, end of discussion.

[bsgs98]

The problem with your theory is that you can't alter the speed without altering the pitch. I agree that ODJB sounds fast to our ears, but that was their style. I have the 1918 ODJB "At the Jazz Band Ball" and also Bix's (1927), Bud Freeman"s (1940), Sydney Bechet's (1949) and the Dukes of Dixieland (1991) and they all play in the same key, B-flat. Of these, ODJB is the fastest at 129 beats/min and Bechet is the slowest at 100 beats/min. They are all correct, but different.

[Grouchy2day]

The late sound engineer John RT Davies re-mastered and speed corrected many of these ODJB sides and I can tell you they don't sound nearly as slow (and off pitch) as these selections. Just check out Timeless CD CBC 1-009 The Original Dixieland Jazz Band.

[Bobpucci]

The speed of the first recording may be slightly faster than the actual but the slowed down version if it is closer to what they actually played only makes the ODJB more lame as jazz musicians. The descriptions of the band in contemporary literature notably VARIETY suggests that frenetic pace was one of their only remarkable attributes. it is sad that this is the band that first recorded" jazz". Keppard should have done his thing in 1916. Mercifully King Oliver, Louis and Bix soon followed.

[turnkeyservicepro]

Isn't that like saying the first wheel was crude or rudimentary? Louis Armstrong, an undisputed jazz heavyweight, stated in an interview he thought the OLDB was an influential group and he HEARD them in person.

[Bobpucci]

Louis was exceedingly generous in his praise of other musicians save for beboppers. He liked Guy Lombardo too. He is right that the ODJB was influential --since they were white they helped a racist America accept jazz. The ODJB however were in no way innovators despite LaRocca's comments to the contrary. Remember in contemporary terms Paul Whiteman was "The King of Jazz." What passed for jazz was a broad array of "novelty" music defined on recordings as foxtrots.

[LesSwattum]

this sounds better, less frantic,more pleasing to the ear! I think you have the right idea. I would like to hear your treatment of the Louisiana Five. Thank you!!!

[dubiassdude]

Don't know if I buy it. Acustic Victors usually play slower than 78rpm anyway, but maybe not that slow. Assuming the goal is to reproduce exactly what was played when it was recorded, one way is you have to know what key the ODJB played this song in, then you play along with the record and adjust your variable speed turntable so you are both "in tune". Any musicians out there want to try it?

[ERICROBILLARD1]

super... continuez!!

[Tellgryn]

Go look at the movies from the 1930's, Tiger Rag is played faster. Those movies are far closer to the age than we are today.

Also Tiger Rag may have been recorded first by this group but was a favorite in NO before it was put to record.

[gwschaefer]

Why does the slow version have a saxophone that is not part of the fast version?

[LesSwattum]

could this have been recorded in 1920, when they added a sax?

[remersarocaminos]

It sounds in the Bb pitch tune that Tiger Rag is ussually played. That´s the way they played at those times, and we must accept it, we like it or not. There´s many Ragtime tunes recorded in the Ragtime Era that sounds awfull to our "modern" ears. Ask a jazzman to play Tiger Rag wile the ODJB record is playing and he´ll agree that´s the real pitch tone.

Or think of people who heard ODJB on stage, the big surprise to hear them playing faster on records.

[smurfswacker]

An interesting hypothesis. This music sounds more like "regular" music of the time. A speed difference would explain one Jass Band recording I heard (sorry, don't remember the title) that sounded so chaotic I couldn't figure it out. Certainly pre-electric recording speeds varied (gramophones had speed adjusters to deal with that). But why wouldn't Victor say so?

I agree with Marc that you may have slowed them down a little too much...the vocal sounds a bit too low and mushy to be real.

[Zefrenm]

Through my resreach, Victor Sound engineers were very technical but slighly daft to music. During the Dixieland jazz band recordings they would have used a metal diaphram on a heavy, thick wooden horn, so a imagine if someone was to shout and be near a horn during record the sound would be distorted. Which was pretty much the pratice of the day. Victor had superior record production and medium but Columbia had the best sound recording but a poor record medium

[Victrolaman1]

You may be right.Sounds better slowed down.

[MarcLaneBordelon]

Okay...I'll go along with the premise. The trouble is, you slowed these a little bit TOO much, e.g. to the point where the syncopation isn't crisp any longer. Slo-mo. Try again.

[Zefrenm]

THe Tiger Rag like Too much mustard or That's a plenty has a melody that's not syncopated. And as a piano player that's played these songs I hear plenty of syncopation in St Louis Blues, Royal Garden blues and At the Jazzman Ball - Zefren