go ahead and keep getting your hopes up that the coyotes will move. cuz thats all that will ever happen: hope. they will not move. they are in phx to stay for good. this comment will probably get lots of thumbs down. but i dont care, im just speaking the truth, and sometimes, the truth hurts.
I Agree with Balsillie bringin a 7th team to Canada.. but seriously.. Hamilton?!?!?! good god you might as well pick Regina.. Winnipeg or Quebec City should gets teams back before anyone gives a thought to Hamilton. S. Ont. doesnt need another team. Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa are all hours away from each other.. Buffalo too
Hours away? Ottawa is 5 hours away, Montreal is at least twice that distance. It's not just a 2 hour drive up the highway. Buffalo is close, and they might be affected by a Hamilton team, but how many Canadians are Sabres fans? Honestly!
And Hamilton has a much larger population (ranked 9th in Canada) than Regina (24th) and Quebec City (10th). If the Quebec Nordiques existed, why not the Hamilton Coyotes?
1- Hamilton cant even support their own AHL team the Bulldogs, they struggle to get 5,500 to any reg season game.
2- OLD ARENA.. even if the do refurbish it or up grade it , its still goin to need to be replaced with in 10 years, its just too old!
3- going back to support of the dogs and their own pro CFL team, they cant even support those two teams fully never mind NHL.. 2 or 3 loosing seasons in Hamilton and the NHL team would have to re locate anyways.
1. AHL is different than NHL, a lot of people just don't pay attention to AHL. Look at Leafs vs. Marlies. The Leafs sell out every night, the Marlies are struggling to get people to come out.
2. Well, Copps was being renovated, and even then, you have new arenas going up all the time. Pittsburgh got a new arena for the Penguins
3. Not necessarily. The TiCats (CFL) were still popular in Hamilton even when they had something like 5 straight losing seasons.
ya know you can argue facts weather hamilton could support a team in the NHL long term until we are sick of typing, all i'm saying is hamilton in my opinion is NOT the best location right now in time to have one in Canada. And the city that could support one with probably few problems would be Winnipeg weather you think it or not. as Bettman said " If NHL expended into Canada again Hamilton would not be a city to get a team right now, if any city in Canada got one Winnipeg would be first"
We won't lose fans. Don't you think we would've lost fans when Ottawa and Buffalo got franchises? Buffalo is only a couple of hours away and has affordable tickets! But we only go there to see the Leafs play, which is what will happen with Hamilton. Remember, the Leafs have been sold out for 78 straight years!
What it WILL force the Leafs to do is lower prices, which I'm all for.
are u kidding me, u know how hard it is to get leafs tickets, and the amount of people that watch hockey here is like 1 our of every 3, and not just hamilton, there are cities like london, KW, and if there were a team in hamilton, and the leafs played there, copps would be filled with leaf jeseys
Yeah, Copps will be filled with Leafs jerseys... what's your point? Hamilton would lower prices on their tickets to attract fans, and to compete, the Leafs would have to lower their prices. Simple economics.
"Insanity is defined as repeatedly performing the same task with the same result and expecting a different outcome."
Kansas City Scouts, NHL, 1972.
That Wang...fellow... who currently owns the storied Islanders team is currently extorting local government into major concessions for a new arena. To back this up, an exhibition game was played with Kings in K.C. to a crowd of less than 9,800, despite $10 tickets. I guess if you already own a team, you can park it up Bettman's ass!
Here's a thought for you, Heffie. Some 20 years ago, a maritime brewer proposed a CFL franchise, Schooners. The plan was to upgrade university facilities in St. John's and Halifax. Nothing big, 20,000 seats, but the home games would be shared, as Green Bay used to do years ago. If this was successful, the NHL could watch for an opportunity to locate in this area. Thoughts?
Hmmm.... very interesting. What ever happened to the idea? I'm guessing it wasn't approved by the league. But yeah, if a sports franchise proved to be successful in the Maritimes, then the NHL should definitely look into moving into the Maritimes. Problem is, I think the NHL wants a more permanent base rather than sharing half the games between St. John's and Halifax.
I essentially agree with what you say. I also support the idea of at least three Canadian cities' NHL franchise hopes, not the least of them, in the maritimes. Quebec City and Winnepeg were already burned.
The proud City of Hamilton has been denied inclusion in the club by the NHL board of governors.
I know that the name Harold Ballard was considered to be a stumbling block to a Hamilton franchise, but at least he was public about a one million dollar fee to win his vote.
Well, it would be interesting to see if a franchise in the Maritimes would work. Everyone there would love a team without a doubt, but would a team in a city like Halifax draw enough people? It's a hockey starved market, and initially would attract sellout crowds, but after the initial euphoria died down, would it survive? But I agree it should be tried. I think the Maritimes needs some sports teams, including a CFL franchise. If that was succesful we could consider a hockey team.
The battle is not over yet. The is a planned auction coming up on August 20, if not, them September 10. RIM is still into bidding for the team and they have another chan at buying the tem and moving it to Hamilton!
the Coyotes were run into the ground by Moyes and Gretzky. If the Yotes are so bad why would someone pay 212.5 mil for a bad team. Maybe so Gretzky and Moyes can make money. With Reinsdof taking over the Coyotes will have a owner who knows how to run a sports franchise. something they never have had.
Gretzky doesn't know how to coach, but he's not in charge of the business or finances, that's Moyes' responsibility. He may be a bad businessman, that's why he needs to sell. The Coyotes need a good GM, because it's more likely people will watch them if they have a good team on the ice.
Balsillie paid 212.5 for a "bad team" because he wanted to have a 7th team in Canada, where it would be more successful. He figured the 212.5 M offer would be too good to pass up for Moyes and the NHL.
As long as there's not another bloody expansion to put teams in KC and Vegas. Put teams there and guaranteed, they go bankrupt in a couple of years. Bettmans has already diluded the talent in the NHL like mad. The optimum number of teams is 25.
I would like to see Jim Bassilie not do anything anymore in terms of trying to purchase a team from one of the ailing franchises with the interntion to relocate. Let the league contract by 5 to 7 teams. The calibre of hockey would not be as watered down and you would possibly see a better brand of hockey. Will this happen? No? Board of Goveroners, NHLPA, etc would be breathing down Bettmem's neck to not contract even if this meant having to relocate them to better markets!
Oh god... Wang scares me. He's got the kind of mind of Kim Jong Il. Meaning that he has power that he shouldn't have, and he's ready to use that power to do some crazy shit. There are some teams that deserve to move (Nashville, Phoenix, Florida), but the Isles have been and can be successful. Wang's run the team into the ground, someone has to get rid of him.
I believe that pre 90's team are unmovable to be honest. With some exception to teams that are having good success like sens, sharks, canes, stars. but others are few are in between....think a team that has one the cup should be permanent....ie: Isles and its dynasty..but they have had very very bad years lately..they need a new building...Wang might try what Mario tried to get a building.
I agree that a team that has won the cup should remain where it is. I just was thinking about when this story first broke, Bettman did an interview saying that he "doesn't run out on cities" and he would do everything he could to remain in Phoenix. Oh, you mean like when you didn't run out of Winnipeg and Quebec Gary?
apparently he said Winnipeg over Hamilton....think is Winnipeg built an arena that only holds like what 14 thousand people...and Quebec city still has the Pepsi coliseum hopefully they didn't throw out there Nordiques stuff LOL:P...LOL Seattle Metropolitans should come back :P
Well, Winnipeg did only have a 14 thousand arena, but why not give it a chance to build a bigger one, like they do in every other hockey city on the globe? They didn't say: "Well, Pittsburgh's old arena is crappy, so let's move cities." It just seems to me that Bettman sure is willing to give these U.S. cities all the chances he wasn't willing to give to Canadian cities. I think Winnipeg would be a better market than Quebec, they have the Canadiens.
yes Winnipeg for sure....well the cap is going to drop in 2010...think he might wanna see what teams will be doing by then....see the thing is balsillie's wont put his money in winnipeg.
Actually, they did say that about the Penguins. The only reason the Pens didn't leave is because Mario Lemieux wasn't willing to sell to a buyer who wanted to move. With all that said however, I agree about the winnipeg situation. If you're going to move the Coyotes, move them back to Winnipeg. Canada does need more teams, and this is coming from a Pittsburgh Native/Fan.
you say that the coyotes deserve to move but the islanders dont hahaha, man you canadians continue to crack me up. since the lockout the isles have never had a higher season average attendence then us or nashville and florida. haha the islanders are way worse then us, we'll be winning the cup by the time this team makes the playoffs, AND JIM BALLS-SILLY SUCK IT LONG AND SUCK IT HARD HAHAA CANADA THANKS FOR THE LUAGHS
The Islanders have been successful in the past, winning 4 Stanley Cups. Names like Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin ring a bell? Just because the present owner doesn't know what the hell he's doing doesn't mean that they should relocate.
The Coyotes have been losing money hand over fist ever since they moved to Phoenix. They have the lowest attendance despite having the lowest ticket prices in the league. And as for Coyote winning the cup... now you're the comedian!
incorrect my friend the coyotes do not have the lowest attendence that would be the ny islanders. look at what pittsburgh did. 1998 bankrupt 11,000 fans in the crowd if theyre lucky (a number the coyotes have never even been close to being that low) now look at them back to back stanley cup appearences and the longest going sell out streak in the nhl even over your maple leafs who are suppost to have the best fans. history will repeat itself.
Actually, the Coyotes have an average attendance of lower than 9,000. You need an attendance that low to be classified as a "have-not" team. The Coyotes have been in Phoenix for 13 years under several different owners. How many years will you need for it to become successful? What makes you think that fans will suddenly start coming to games? At least Pittsburgh had been popular before that 1998 mess. It had just been a bad team on the ice. They needed Sid the Kid to bring fans out again.
Nope. THE best player is Russian, Ovechkin, I'll give him that. But look at the best players in the league right now, as a group. Most of them are Canadian.
@howler602, "Ball-Silly" just means his balls are silly, it can't be any worse then "Buttman" now that just sounds gay, sounds like he loves it in the ass. Anyway, Canada is awesome and you know it, oh and please learn how to spell "laugh" it took me about 15 hours to read your whole comment because of your poor education in USA.
Here is a link that you may all enjoy reading google "a legal analysis of the phoenix coyotes situation". It was written by a contract litigation lawyer and he states his opinions on this case.
and for the love of god don't think for an instant that i wouldn't love another team in sw ontario. i cheered for the failed leafs for 25 years, and i have had enough.
i hate the fucking organization, i hate the teacher's pension...i need an alternative.
i am merely trying to wrap my head around why the LEAGUE has been against this move 3 times now, beyond any of the excuses this guy offered in this video.
I hate the teachers union as well, with the money that team makes they should have had good stanley cup runs, now its too late you can't buy stanley cups anymore. I think Bettman does have issues with bringing teams to Canada. I also think that there are some owners of losing teams that think they should have the option of moving into South Ontario first and the last reason I think is that the NHL knows that a NHL team in South Ontario is worth a lot more then 217.5 Million.
Well that's fine and dandy specualtion but most of what I am saying are quotes taken from various articles regarding the opinions of those envolved.
When I suggest that American teams don't like the thought of trying to sell tickets for their team to play some obscure sw city...it's because that's what i read.
when i say that toronto doesnt want this to happen and they have the power to veto the move...it's because that's what i read.
I admit that I am using common sense "speculation" on a lot of the stuff that I am saying but I will not believe everything that I read. I know that the league has a rule giving teams territorial rights, I also know that challenging those territorial rights in a court of law will probably be successful. The only way Balsillie can move a team on a moments notice is to put it in Copps.
I don't believe it will stay there, I think Balsillie would agree to move to allow NHL to save face.
My opinions aren't excuses, they're based on sound logic. Many people agree with my opinions, based on the conversations I've had with others about this topic. Also, read TSN. Daly and Bettman have said repeatedly that they don't like what this is doing because Balsillie is bypassing rules. "Balsillie". Laying the blame squarely at his feet. It's clear these two groups are not getting along.
I don't think anybody is going to debate the fact that Bettman doesn't like the fact that Balsillie is stepping on his nuts, small as they may be. The question is just how much can Bettman do that is out of the best interest of the league without their permission, thay can still fire him.
your "3 rules of logic" are based on personal feelings on this.
- Bettman hates everything Canadian...
- Bettman hates Balsillie...
- Bettman doesn't want to admit that the experiments of marketing hockey in Phoenix Arizona has failed. ie; he's blinded with self pride beyond the ability to admit he is wrong.
Dude. honestly...these are not REAL excuses. Dig deeper. Read the articles...find out who stands to lose with this move.
I said there are three possibilities, and I ranked them in increasing likelihood. I never said I espoused #1. I said I thought it was a 50/50 combo of #2 and #3. Listen next time.
think about it. Just going to court is going to cost the NHL millions of dollers. And the only reasons you can come up with is because of bettman's emotions.
"hi board of directors, i'm going to need millions of dollers now to fight this buy out in court, because i don't like balsillie and have a personal affection for hockey in phoenix!"
Well, actually, the board of directors and Bettman share their distaste for Balsillie. He could be using the excuse with the board of directors that he has to make an example of anyone who breaks the rules (which to an extent is true), but if it had been someone else who had done it, or it had been a team that Bettman hadn't personally installed and propped up, I don't think Bettman would be going hammer and tongs here.
Either way, we've both stated our opinions several times, we're going in circles, and I'm bored with this now. If you want to keep talking, be my guest, but I'm done with this conversation.
But again, even if all the other teams in the league wanted this move to happen, Toronto simply has to say "no" and order Gary to fight it anyway possible.
- All the teams currently struggling, as the salary cap would go up.
- most of the American teams don't like the prospect of trying to sell tickets to home games featuring a small market city nobody has heard of from Canada.
You keep saying that the struggling teams don`t want anymore money making teams in the NHL but I don`t believe that. Every sportswriter that I have read has said nothing but positive comments about a losing team being replaced by a winning team. The only issue that I can see the other owners having is the fact that they know how much another team in southern Ontario could make. They probably could have sold a team in that area for much more.
The salary cap is based on a % of how much money the NHL earns. The more teams you have earning money the less teams you have drawing funds from the pool and adding to it. You are suggesting that Hamilton would only break even after ticket sales, concessions and merchandising (since Phoenix lost 10 mill/year by increasing the overall NHL by 10 mill/year you're stating that they will only brek even)
Yeah but they can't drive up the salary cap more then what the NHL makes. If there is still an issue then the NHL needs to make the richer teams pay a higher % of their profits to the pool for the poorer teams. That is the price they pay for forcing teams that can't pay their bills to stay in cities that are not supporting them.
The struggling teams would get a bigger cut of the profit sharing here. Take a have-not team, convert it into a have team, they're not only not sucking up money, but now they're contributing to the have-nots. Even with the salary cap increase, the have-nots still earn more this way.
in a sort of circular logic kind of way............ if another team enters s.w.o, the leafs will have to get better, which will only increase their earnings. i just can't see them losing money on this.
More people stand to lose from this than to gain with regards to the NHL (not the NHLPA)
If this was nothing but a win win scenerio for the NHL, it would have happened by now. The board of Directors who control Bettman would have either let Balsillie get a team in SW Ontario, or they would have already expanded to SW Ontario.
More people stand to lose than gain. It's that simple.
The people in power stand to lose. Yes, Toronto and Buffalo may lose a small amount of revenue, but actually, the NHL as a whole will make more money by having a team in Hamilton. Also, you'll be taking one team from the have-nots and putting them in the "have" category, meaning that there's more money for the "have-nots". What happens to the Board of Directors if the team moves to Southern Ontario? A few bruised egos.
If the revenue to the NHL in SW Ontario is currently 100 mil/year, adding a second team MIGHT increase the area revenue up to say...120 mil/year.
In other words, the market here is already tapped pretty well. Those who would like hockey, already give money in some way or another to the nhl. (be it through Montreal, Toronto, Buffalo or Ottawa)
Adding another team, while great for the fans, would just divide the pie. it wouldn't CREATE many new fans.
I don't know where you get your figures from but your looking right now at a Pheonix team that loses 10 mill/year. There is one thing that nobody disagrees with, another team in the Toronto area is a gold mine.
Lets say they only get 15000 fans per home game, Leafs average over 19000 and the Copps holds 18000. 15000 fans multiplied by 42 home games multiplied by $100 per ticket thats over 60 mill, the salary cap is 50 mill and that doesn`t include concessions or merchandise.
Even without considering concessions and merchandising you are already making 20 mill more per season. As far as suggesting that you are not going to get anymore hockey fans because anybody who likes hockey is already a Leaf or Sabres fan, that`s not true. When Hamilton makes that playoffs there are going to be people partying in the streets, do you think people won`t get caught up in that.
While it would draw people away from Toronto on the merchandising side of things, it would make money through tickets and concessions alone. Think about it. Every single Leafs game is sold out. Hamiltonian fans can barely afford to see a Leaf game so they just don't go. Suddenly an NHL team is in their town with tickets that are affordable and an arena that's nearby and accessible. The ACC still sells out, and Copps sells out. Cha-Ching!
dude, Bay St. et al. buys most of the leafs' season tickets. they've been doing this for a long time. there's a long waiting list for these ~20years. whatever is left, generally sells on a 1st come 1st serve basis...
Everyone knows that the Leafs and Sabres are going to lose money if a team goes to Hamilton. I don't think you'll see as big a drop in merchandising as everyone is suggesting. When you have two teams that are that close together everybody want to show who their favorite team is
Have you ever seen playoff fever? I don't know where you live but if you live in Toronto you know about the way the streets get overrun when the leafs win a series. Do you think that the same types of parties happen in Hamilton? Not the honking the horns and the occasional person on the street waving their arms around I mean the you can't drive on any of the roads because they have just become overwhelmed with people. I didnt watch baseball until the Jays got into the world series
"MLSE officials declined comment but have insisted privately that whatever losses the league has incurred from the Coyotes pale compared to the revenue that would be lost from another team in the Toronto area."
It boils down to this.
You won't be creating any NEW fans in this area, those who will like hockey, already watch it.
All that would happen is the pie would be divided into two. (or 3 if you count Buffalo)
LMFAO this is the funniest thing I have read that you written so far. They haven`t discussed it publicly but in private they have discussed this, who does that make you. Can you hear what I`m saying right now. Does that mean that the Coyotes gained no fans since the NHL came in. Hamilton residents will become hockey fans based solely on the fact that they just received an NHL hockey franchise.
The suit also takes aim at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs, alleging it has colluded with the league for years to preserve market power in the Greater Toronto Area. Prohibiting relocation deprives hockey fans of increased competition, lower prices, higher quality and more variety, the suit alleged.
quote taken from another article from yesterday...(if there was still any doubt of what I'm talking about)
"League members "have conspired with and through the NHL to maintain monopoly power in their `home markets' or `home territories' by refusing to allow the relocation of NHL clubs to markets where existing clubs currently have franchises," the document contends.
The move to Hamilton would invade areas already claimed by the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres as their fan base."
LOL do you know that this quote is telling you exactly what I have been saying. This is what Ballsillie is saying, it is why he is fighting the league. Maintaining monopoly power is illegal. If it were not illegal, you would see only one store selling items within a certain area. No more fights Rogers & Blockbuster, Wal-Mart & Superstore no more choices, bring on the price gouging aka Maple Leafs
If the NHL had control of the team signed over to them, than that kills the chance of Balsillie getting the team by 100 percent (not 80)
and yes, the board of governors and Bettman, are not impressed with this 3rd attempt of Balsillie trying to strong arm himself into owning a hockey team, regardless of how much SW Ontario would love the move.
Basically Balsillie hasn't done himself any favors.
The NHL has had control over the Coyotes since roughly the all star break, or around that time. So Moyes had no right to try and file for chapter 11. That kills about 80% chance of Ballsillie gets any part of the team. Also, Bettman does hate Ballsillie, and with good reason, he doesnt even try and play by the rules, he just comes in and starts waving around money trying to buy a team. And hes tried to sell tickets for a team that he didnt even own yet, and he got on Bettmans bad side from that.
Oh why didn`t you say so, Iguess there is no need for them to be in court right now. Unless you listen to the other side who state that Moyes had every right to sell his team. Balsillie did try to work with the NHL to put a teamin southern Ontario and they don`t want it. Bettman wants everyone to think that Balsillie is being unreasonable to give him a leg up in court, this is Balsillie`s last chance for a team.
Thats step 1 in court next time is to see if Moyes had any right to file for bankruptcy, if he doesnt, it ends there. But even then, When he tried to buy the Preds, he tried to sell season tickets in Hamilton, when there was a clause for new owners to have to make a good faith to keep the team where it was. (in Nashville) Ballsillie has this bad problem of waving around money, and its worked for RIM, but it hasnt worked in the NHL, if he would of played by the rules, im sure he would have a team
The NHL is suggesting that Moyes did not have the right to sell the team, NHL will lose this battle, just because you lend someone money does not give you ownership rights unless it is explicit. The NHL immediately stripped all ownership rights away from Moyes when they found out he claimed bankruptsy, that would suggest at that time he still had ownership rights. Bettman has no problem withBalsillie owning a team, he has issue of him moving a team.
Well, I am just speculating. There obviously is some kind of an arguement and that explains why it needs to go to trial...so we will see what happens.
can you prove that? where's the proof? why would j.b. even make an offer, and incur millions in legal fees if he didn't think he had a good chance of acquiring the 'yotes? thew count and the nhl have repeatedly lied about the status, fiscal and otherwise of the 'yotes and all the other teams who are in trouble, and there's a whole bunch of them. j.b.'s gonna get ateam. it may not be phoenix, but..... and that also means theweasel known as bettman is outy, yo.
Because thats where JB got all his money was from waving around money, and it works for RIM (got sued for stealing others patents for blackberrys, bought them out). And that doesnt work in the NHL. Hes had 3 tries to buy a team, and he hasnt done it the right way any of the times, which has him in Bettman's blacklist.
two tries. plus this one which is not over yet. what ever happened to if you don't succeed, try, try again.? i'm pretty sure that if this was an american trying to take over a canadian team in the same way that the nhl and the count would be completely onside.
and once again, i ask you, where's the proof? if you believe bettman, i got some great swamp land i'll sell you cheap. for months the nhl has said, in all kinds of media, especially the fan 590 ( at least 4 times a month) that the league had not taken over the 'yotes. at the very best, he's a lying sack of shit.
The NHL has all the liabilities of Phoenix since...when, who knows, because saying that would ruin the value of the Coyotes and shoo off any new investors.
for the third time.. how do you know that? did bettman personally show you the documents? why is this question so difficult for you to grasp? i hate tom cruise but i'm gonna quote him anyway 'SHOW ME THE MONEY' or papers signing over control. if the nhl actually had these papers, they would have shown them to the bankruptcy judge on thursday and that would be that. but, they don't got. so there. unless....you're gary bettman, aren't you?
if you read a fucking news article you would understand that is what is in contention for fuck sakes.
the NHL says they have papers that moyes signed on 3 seperate occasions that sign control of the club over, and more specifically prevent him from the ability to file for bankruptsy.
moyes is claiming that he is still in power of the club and is allowed to file for bankruptsy.
do these papers inlcude what the nhl says? we will both find out.
i'm not actually all that unrelaxed./ liquidfire dude keeps insisting that the nhl owns the 'yotes. why is he so sure of this?all i'm asking is that he show me the proof. i've been reading all kinds of articles, both from canada and the states.
11 of the 24 american teams lose money. all six canadian teams earn money, and in fact, the canadian teams provide 31% of the income for the league, although there's some debate about that figure, some people think it's more like 50%.
so if i was one of the american team owners making a profit, i'd be saying giddyup, let's move more teams to southern ontario.
bettman can't pull the wool over their eyes much longer, in my opinion.
The only reason the Canadian clubs earned 31% of the income was because the loonie was strong last year, now its back down to normal and even dropping.
Do you remember before the lockout where all the Canadian teams were hemmoraging money left and right? Back when they asked the government for bailout money to stay afloat? Boy, Canadians have one good economic year, and thats all they talk about, not remembering what happened 5 years ago.
i don't totally disagree with you, but that bad shit was when our dollar was below 60 cents u.s. if it stays around 80 c, we're still going to do better. ( i think)
The loonie isn't back to the level it was 5 years ago. Not even close. Back then it was, about 69 American cents wasn't it? Then it grew, now it's levelling off and staying relatively steady just above 90 cents right? The Canadian teams didn't ask for bailout money, I don't know where you get your facts. They were crying for a CBA. So yeah, the CBA did keep them afloat, and now they're doing much better than they were. It's a combination of the CBA and the stable loonie.
youtube wont post links i dont think, but ESPN did a good article about it, so google "Here's why you shouldn't feel too sorry for Canadian franchises" and read it, Its quite a good read. And the loonie is just under 87 cents right now. Also, thanks for the video, it makes for good discussions.
Thanks for mentioning that link. I remember when they were talking about the tax breaks years ago on grapevine and Don Cherry was saying that you have to give them the tax cuts or they were going to lose their teams. I did not know that the tax breaks were approved but it makes sense because I haven't heard of players whining about being sent to Canada for years because of the taxes.
I have heard that the offers that Bettman was trying to set up to sell the team were as low as 30 million and as high as 175 million. Lets take the the middle ground, I am being offered 100 million dollars for a business I have lost 300 million dollars on and all of the NHL will be happy. I now have a second offer from someone who is going to pay me over twice that amount but now everyone in the NHL is going to be upset with me. I have chosen to worry about my business.
"I got into this thing kind of by accident," Moyes said in brief remarks outside the downtown Phoenix courthouse. "I loaned (previous owner) Steve Ellman $5 million one night to keep the team in Phoenix. Now I'm into it over $300 million. I'm going to be lucky to get $100 million out of it."Moyes indicated he was open to another bid to buy the team."
The way he comes off here, sounds kind of stupid.
But after further thought today, I think the only hope for this to work, is if Basillie (by some miracle) gets control of the team...and is hell bent on bringing it here to SW Ontario, the best fit for him and this team in the league, is to put it in Toronto.
But like I said, I think this Moyes guy is a wee bit of a flake, and that this will all be yet another dead issue come June.
But you can't put it in Toronto if MLSE can veto the move. Plus, in Toronto, you're either a Leafs fan, or you're not a hockey fan. I don't see many fans making a switch from one TO team to the other.
Well, Toronto can be greedy as an organization, no doubt. But is it necessarily greed here? I mean, it's just business sense that you don't want to share your market. You don't go into business to help others, you go into it to make money. So if someone tries to get in on your territory, any company will fight it. But I think when you go to a city like Hamilton, and they're still trying to veto it, then yeah, it would be a greedy move.
Of course the leafs are going to try to stop this, reasons are obvious. Wal mart and Superstore go to court each time the other tries to open up in "their territory" they always end up losing. The last time it happened, in Aurora, the Wal mart spokesperson said that it is a normal part of the process, Superstore knew that they were going to lose in court but the money that they make while fighting to keep Wal Mart from opening is worth it.
Another interesting angle I read today in yet another article...regarding small city's/townships in Canada and the NHL.
While these places can sellout tickets here in Canada, and become successful...these places have a negative impact on every American franchise in the league.
"How can we get people to buy tickets for the New York Rangers or L.A Kings to host a game against Kitchener?"
seeing as how 24 teams in this league are currently State side, no wonder the league is fighting this
Any American hockey cities will want to see the Canadian hockey teams, As for the two teams you mentioned, the New York Rangers will sell out and LA Kings won't. The Rangers won't sell out in LA and the Kings will sell out in New York. It also depends on the product you bring in, players like Ovechkin draw fans.
this isn't a matter of my opinion. I read this from an article last night regarding this situation.
GM's not wanting to be named have mentioned that it would be a hard sell to get people to want to come see a team from kitchener or some other no name city/town play.
And yes, they considered Hamilton a minor leauge city.
how many fans care who ovechkin or crosby play for? they go to see a player, for the most part. that said, SOME teams are draws because of who they are, i.e. leafs or habs, wings or bruins.
this isn't my opinion. I only am quoting what I read in an article that had interviewed some American Hockey owners that didn't want to be named.
It seems pretty plausible that the United States fans especially in the Southern States would be fickle enough to not bother going to see their team play against some small market city like Hamilton, Kitchener or London.
I don't know of too many retarted multi millionaires who run their own businesses. His lawyer also said that he never relinquished any power of ownership to the team. He wasn't told that his ownership powers were gone until he did something the league didn't want him to.
So he confused the word mistakenly with accidently, have you never screwed up words, he's not a lawyer and probably has never been to college. Obviously you can't accidently buy a hockey team
that are on the sunbelt will tell the rest of the owners that he wants to move his team there, maybe even Phoenix. The entire NHL Board OG is not happy about the way Balsillie went about going around the proper steps and break NHL rules. The NHL is going to put another team in the Southern Ontario area but the perfect scenario for the NHL would be to beat Balsillie in court and then allow one of their current owners to move to Southern Ontario
The owners always try to show solidarity. It is obvious that both the Leafs and Sabres will fight this move, it does not mean as much to the other clubs. Once the owners get together behind closed doors you are going to see that some of these owners are not going to think that it is such a bad idea to let a billionaire come in and open a franchise in an area where it is sure to succeed. I do believe that one of the poorer teams that are on the s
The leafs have, under the rules of the NHL the power to veto anything in Hamilton. But that doesnt mean they would be happy about a hockey club anywhere near SW Ont.
I think we both can agree that the Leafs stand to gain nothing from this.
But where you and I differ is to the extent of the influence that the Leaf have over this situation
I believe that even if Leafs ownership was the only vote against this move, that that would be enough to order Gary into fighting this tooth and nail.
As far as the Leafs lowering ticket prices, that's not going to happen. The scalpers are still going to buy up all of the Leaf tickets(they might have to lower their prices) Bob McKenzie said that he thinks Bettman might be so upset because, for a team in southern Ontario, the NHL should have gottena lot more then what Balsillie paid. Maybe he's right, maybe that's why Bettman is so upset.
Well, they would have to lower ticket prices for people to continue to buy their tickets. Otherwise, you could just drive over the Kitchener, Hamilton, London, wherever the team ends up, and watch an NHL team for much less. The thing is, this new team would draw away the fans who view the NHL as an elastic product. If they're just watching for NHL action and aren't devoted solely to the Leafs, they simply would switch allegiance.
All of the Leafs season tix will still be sold out, the few people who do decide to give them up and do the trek to the other building will have their season tix bought up. The scalpers will still buy up all the rest of the tix and you or I would still have to buy tix from them
But with the lowering of the prices by the box office, it stands to reason that the scalpers will also lower their prices. They will still make a nice profit, as well as being able to sell out more of their inventory.
They will not lower the prices at their box office unless they are unable to sell the tix at what they are asking for them now. Right now a scalper buys a ticket for $60 and sells it to you for $100, if another team comes then the scalper will buy it for $60 but you may only pay $80. If the scalper stops making money off of the tix then they will stop buying them and you will be able to buy your ticket straight from ticketmaster for $60. The Leafs won't have to drop their prices.
If the league continues to try to keep the teams that are losing money in cities that will continue to lose money and then try to tell the players that their salaries have to continue to decrease because they have decided that they don't want money making franchises, as tend says, then the players need to go back on strike.
God, I hope there isn't another strike. The NHL needs to recognize that marketing is a good thing, and there's nothing wrong with holding exhibition games in places like Kansas City or Las Vegas. But they need to understand that it will be a long time before you should ever consider putting a team there full time. Phoenix clearly wasn't ready, and neither will those two markets. There are a bunch of teams in our league that should either fold or move.
The NHLPA has said, that they would support any decision that was made. Be it a club in Phoenix or a move to SW Ontario.
But what was cute was that they made it subtely clear that they are more excited about the move to SW Ontario, because they as a group know what that does to the leauge's revenue, and subsequently, the baseline salary.
All I have heard Bettman say is that is that he is not happy with Balsilly going around the leagues regulations to try to put a team where he wants it. Let's face facts Bettman has stopped a team from going to south Ontario so many times already Balsilly knew he wasn't getting one unless he was a little under-handed about it. All of the league owners want a poor team to change ownership and stay in the city but they don't want to lose money in the process.
There are anti monopolization laws in North America and they hold precedent over any NHL league rules. Perfect examples of this law being enforced is Bell Canada and Microsoft, both lost in court because they were trying to put a monopoly on their products. The reason why monopolies are illegal is to prevent price gouging, something the Leafs have been guilty of for a long time. All Balsillie has to do is prove there is a fan base to support two teams, which he has.
I do not believe that the Leafs can veto a decision to place a team in southern Ontario. I read the article and it sounds to me like a league rule not a North American law. If the majority of owners choose to change that rule then it will be changed, the Leafs are sitting on a goldmine and they don't want it encroached upon. If I open up a store in a good loction does that mean someone else can't open a store across the street and sell the same thing?
It is a league rule, but the NHL argues that their rules are completely legal. It will be interesting if Balsillie challenges it based on the anti-monopolization laws, but I don't think there is real motivation in the league from other owners to change it. If Balsillie does go the court route, it could be a long, drawn-out battle before this team lands in Hamilton.
Well, like I said, I believe this possibility was already descussed and decided on a LONG time ago at a meeting far far away, between Gary and the owners (Leafs) regarding what the owner's stance was about another team in SW Ontario.
Gary is just doing what he was ordered to do. And that is fight any way possible, any attempt in moving a team here.
If Balsillie wins in court, it doesn't matter what the Leafs want. Like you said, there are more options than just Hamilton in play here. London might be able to support a team, Kitchener/Waterloo is another option. But the first step is winning the decision that Balsillie was not acting illegally when hammering out the agreement to buy the team from Moyes.
But it will be a long process. If the league loses, they will launch appeals. Either way, there won't be a team in Hamilton next season.
I will say that, until I hear Bettman say that the board of governors have voted to keep Balsillie out. I believe that Bettman has not yet gotten together with all of the owners to discuss the entire situation. I don't know what the other offer was and I don't think the other owners know yet either. That is going to have a big effect on the decision. Was the 30 million that the Coyotes owe the NHL being written off as part of the sale?
Bettman and the board don't like Balsillie, and they all want their rules upheld.
Bettman hasn't had a meeting with anyone yet, I think he'll find that team owners may be sympathetic to Balsillie, Paul Kelly, the head of the NHLPA himself said that Balsillie is the kind of guy you would want to have as an owner.
The 30 million the Coyotes own the NHL would be repaid, 100 cents on the dollar. Most times the creditors are paid 80 cents on the dollar. The NHL would rather lose money.
aboot time you remove this vid eh? Go dogs!
36driver 1 year ago
@36driver It's better than your fruity music and paint vids.
Heffiewiggle 1 year ago
shut up. At least my team the Coyotes are 2 in the western CONFERENCE. And your team is last in the eastern CONFERENCE. What!!!!!!!!!
ClemTigers281 2 years ago
@ClemTigers281 At least people come to Leafs games.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
go ahead and keep getting your hopes up that the coyotes will move. cuz thats all that will ever happen: hope. they will not move. they are in phx to stay for good. this comment will probably get lots of thumbs down. but i dont care, im just speaking the truth, and sometimes, the truth hurts.
honeasports 2 years ago
Anywhere but Southern Ontario
cirruskid 2 years ago
Eff Hamilton.. Winnipeg all the way
ryanfskater 2 years ago
I Agree with Balsillie bringin a 7th team to Canada.. but seriously.. Hamilton?!?!?! good god you might as well pick Regina.. Winnipeg or Quebec City should gets teams back before anyone gives a thought to Hamilton. S. Ont. doesnt need another team. Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa are all hours away from each other.. Buffalo too
ryanfskater 2 years ago
Hours away? Ottawa is 5 hours away, Montreal is at least twice that distance. It's not just a 2 hour drive up the highway. Buffalo is close, and they might be affected by a Hamilton team, but how many Canadians are Sabres fans? Honestly!
And Hamilton has a much larger population (ranked 9th in Canada) than Regina (24th) and Quebec City (10th). If the Quebec Nordiques existed, why not the Hamilton Coyotes?
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
i was joking about Regina.. lol
1- Hamilton cant even support their own AHL team the Bulldogs, they struggle to get 5,500 to any reg season game.
2- OLD ARENA.. even if the do refurbish it or up grade it , its still goin to need to be replaced with in 10 years, its just too old!
3- going back to support of the dogs and their own pro CFL team, they cant even support those two teams fully never mind NHL.. 2 or 3 loosing seasons in Hamilton and the NHL team would have to re locate anyways.
ryanfskater 2 years ago
Oh, ok. I was kinda hoping you were.
1. AHL is different than NHL, a lot of people just don't pay attention to AHL. Look at Leafs vs. Marlies. The Leafs sell out every night, the Marlies are struggling to get people to come out.
2. Well, Copps was being renovated, and even then, you have new arenas going up all the time. Pittsburgh got a new arena for the Penguins
3. Not necessarily. The TiCats (CFL) were still popular in Hamilton even when they had something like 5 straight losing seasons.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
ya know you can argue facts weather hamilton could support a team in the NHL long term until we are sick of typing, all i'm saying is hamilton in my opinion is NOT the best location right now in time to have one in Canada. And the city that could support one with probably few problems would be Winnipeg weather you think it or not. as Bettman said " If NHL expended into Canada again Hamilton would not be a city to get a team right now, if any city in Canada got one Winnipeg would be first"
ryanfskater 2 years ago
AGREED!!!
cirruskid 2 years ago
Gay jersey....Leafs sucks
Leafs don't want Phoenix to move to Hamilton because the Leafs will lose their "fanbase" will be easily lost due to their shittiness
Frithmeister02 2 years ago
We won't lose fans. Don't you think we would've lost fans when Ottawa and Buffalo got franchises? Buffalo is only a couple of hours away and has affordable tickets! But we only go there to see the Leafs play, which is what will happen with Hamilton. Remember, the Leafs have been sold out for 78 straight years!
What it WILL force the Leafs to do is lower prices, which I'm all for.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
are u kidding me, u know how hard it is to get leafs tickets, and the amount of people that watch hockey here is like 1 our of every 3, and not just hamilton, there are cities like london, KW, and if there were a team in hamilton, and the leafs played there, copps would be filled with leaf jeseys
pizzabox24 2 years ago
Yeah, Copps will be filled with Leafs jerseys... what's your point? Hamilton would lower prices on their tickets to attract fans, and to compete, the Leafs would have to lower their prices. Simple economics.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
"Insanity is defined as repeatedly performing the same task with the same result and expecting a different outcome."
Kansas City Scouts, NHL, 1972.
That Wang...fellow... who currently owns the storied Islanders team is currently extorting local government into major concessions for a new arena. To back this up, an exhibition game was played with Kings in K.C. to a crowd of less than 9,800, despite $10 tickets. I guess if you already own a team, you can park it up Bettman's ass!
Good idea!
spinalzap 2 years ago
Here's a thought for you, Heffie. Some 20 years ago, a maritime brewer proposed a CFL franchise, Schooners. The plan was to upgrade university facilities in St. John's and Halifax. Nothing big, 20,000 seats, but the home games would be shared, as Green Bay used to do years ago. If this was successful, the NHL could watch for an opportunity to locate in this area. Thoughts?
spinalzap 2 years ago
Hmmm.... very interesting. What ever happened to the idea? I'm guessing it wasn't approved by the league. But yeah, if a sports franchise proved to be successful in the Maritimes, then the NHL should definitely look into moving into the Maritimes. Problem is, I think the NHL wants a more permanent base rather than sharing half the games between St. John's and Halifax.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I essentially agree with what you say. I also support the idea of at least three Canadian cities' NHL franchise hopes, not the least of them, in the maritimes. Quebec City and Winnepeg were already burned.
The proud City of Hamilton has been denied inclusion in the club by the NHL board of governors.
I know that the name Harold Ballard was considered to be a stumbling block to a Hamilton franchise, but at least he was public about a one million dollar fee to win his vote.
spinalzap 2 years ago
Well, it would be interesting to see if a franchise in the Maritimes would work. Everyone there would love a team without a doubt, but would a team in a city like Halifax draw enough people? It's a hockey starved market, and initially would attract sellout crowds, but after the initial euphoria died down, would it survive? But I agree it should be tried. I think the Maritimes needs some sports teams, including a CFL franchise. If that was succesful we could consider a hockey team.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
SORRY, i cant take ANYONE with a leafs jersey seriously
mrhiway420 2 years ago
Well then, you didn't have to leave a comment.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
The battle is not over yet. The is a planned auction coming up on August 20, if not, them September 10. RIM is still into bidding for the team and they have another chan at buying the tem and moving it to Hamilton!
MGman800 2 years ago
even though your a leafs fan i must say i agree with you. but seriously guy you need to take your ginger self outside and get some sun .
shithawkguy 2 years ago
the Coyotes were run into the ground by Moyes and Gretzky. If the Yotes are so bad why would someone pay 212.5 mil for a bad team. Maybe so Gretzky and Moyes can make money. With Reinsdof taking over the Coyotes will have a owner who knows how to run a sports franchise. something they never have had.
pucks2008 2 years ago
Gretzky doesn't know how to coach, but he's not in charge of the business or finances, that's Moyes' responsibility. He may be a bad businessman, that's why he needs to sell. The Coyotes need a good GM, because it's more likely people will watch them if they have a good team on the ice.
Balsillie paid 212.5 for a "bad team" because he wanted to have a 7th team in Canada, where it would be more successful. He figured the 212.5 M offer would be too good to pass up for Moyes and the NHL.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
the coyotes are gone in 5 years. KC vegas houston who knows but mark my words there gone.
ohweloveeverton 2 years ago
As long as there's not another bloody expansion to put teams in KC and Vegas. Put teams there and guaranteed, they go bankrupt in a couple of years. Bettmans has already diluded the talent in the NHL like mad. The optimum number of teams is 25.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I would like to see Jim Bassilie not do anything anymore in terms of trying to purchase a team from one of the ailing franchises with the interntion to relocate. Let the league contract by 5 to 7 teams. The calibre of hockey would not be as watered down and you would possibly see a better brand of hockey. Will this happen? No? Board of Goveroners, NHLPA, etc would be breathing down Bettmem's neck to not contract even if this meant having to relocate them to better markets!
Sudbury67 2 years ago
keep them in Phoenix!
BetoG34 2 years ago
They are staying. Its been comfirmed.
DokkenCanes11 2 years ago 2
Unfortunately.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
i may be a sens fan but fuck i agree with you, fuck betman
Terrin123456789 2 years ago
fuck no put em back in canada where they belong
Terrin123456789 2 years ago
Amen to that.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Keep 'em in Phx.
Rams102889 2 years ago
think its phoenix moves it will start a reaction where more move.
trashers4cashers 2 years ago
Definitely, I'm thinking Wang, the owner of the Isles, would be crazy enough to try something like that.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
yea i heard about that too...Wang already made publicly he regrets buying the isles....perhaps the exhibition game in kansas is a hint LOL
trashers4cashers 2 years ago
Oh god... Wang scares me. He's got the kind of mind of Kim Jong Il. Meaning that he has power that he shouldn't have, and he's ready to use that power to do some crazy shit. There are some teams that deserve to move (Nashville, Phoenix, Florida), but the Isles have been and can be successful. Wang's run the team into the ground, someone has to get rid of him.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I believe that pre 90's team are unmovable to be honest. With some exception to teams that are having good success like sens, sharks, canes, stars. but others are few are in between....think a team that has one the cup should be permanent....ie: Isles and its dynasty..but they have had very very bad years lately..they need a new building...Wang might try what Mario tried to get a building.
trashers4cashers 2 years ago
I agree that a team that has won the cup should remain where it is. I just was thinking about when this story first broke, Bettman did an interview saying that he "doesn't run out on cities" and he would do everything he could to remain in Phoenix. Oh, you mean like when you didn't run out of Winnipeg and Quebec Gary?
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
apparently he said Winnipeg over Hamilton....think is Winnipeg built an arena that only holds like what 14 thousand people...and Quebec city still has the Pepsi coliseum hopefully they didn't throw out there Nordiques stuff LOL:P...LOL Seattle Metropolitans should come back :P
trashers4cashers 2 years ago
Well, Winnipeg did only have a 14 thousand arena, but why not give it a chance to build a bigger one, like they do in every other hockey city on the globe? They didn't say: "Well, Pittsburgh's old arena is crappy, so let's move cities." It just seems to me that Bettman sure is willing to give these U.S. cities all the chances he wasn't willing to give to Canadian cities. I think Winnipeg would be a better market than Quebec, they have the Canadiens.
Seattle should definitely come back! LOL!
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
yes Winnipeg for sure....well the cap is going to drop in 2010...think he might wanna see what teams will be doing by then....see the thing is balsillie's wont put his money in winnipeg.
trashers4cashers 2 years ago
I agree. The only reason Balsillie is doing this is not to own a team, he wants it in southern ontario.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Actually, they did say that about the Penguins. The only reason the Pens didn't leave is because Mario Lemieux wasn't willing to sell to a buyer who wanted to move. With all that said however, I agree about the winnipeg situation. If you're going to move the Coyotes, move them back to Winnipeg. Canada does need more teams, and this is coming from a Pittsburgh Native/Fan.
DJClintonPGH 2 years ago
you say that the coyotes deserve to move but the islanders dont hahaha, man you canadians continue to crack me up. since the lockout the isles have never had a higher season average attendence then us or nashville and florida. haha the islanders are way worse then us, we'll be winning the cup by the time this team makes the playoffs, AND JIM BALLS-SILLY SUCK IT LONG AND SUCK IT HARD HAHAA CANADA THANKS FOR THE LUAGHS
howler602 2 years ago
The Islanders have been successful in the past, winning 4 Stanley Cups. Names like Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin ring a bell? Just because the present owner doesn't know what the hell he's doing doesn't mean that they should relocate.
The Coyotes have been losing money hand over fist ever since they moved to Phoenix. They have the lowest attendance despite having the lowest ticket prices in the league. And as for Coyote winning the cup... now you're the comedian!
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
incorrect my friend the coyotes do not have the lowest attendence that would be the ny islanders. look at what pittsburgh did. 1998 bankrupt 11,000 fans in the crowd if theyre lucky (a number the coyotes have never even been close to being that low) now look at them back to back stanley cup appearences and the longest going sell out streak in the nhl even over your maple leafs who are suppost to have the best fans. history will repeat itself.
howler602 2 years ago
Actually, the Coyotes have an average attendance of lower than 9,000. You need an attendance that low to be classified as a "have-not" team. The Coyotes have been in Phoenix for 13 years under several different owners. How many years will you need for it to become successful? What makes you think that fans will suddenly start coming to games? At least Pittsburgh had been popular before that 1998 mess. It had just been a bad team on the ice. They needed Sid the Kid to bring fans out again.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Oh, and by the way... the vast majority of players in hockey are Canadians... especially the good ones.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
and again wrong the best players are russian
howler602 2 years ago
Nope. THE best player is Russian, Ovechkin, I'll give him that. But look at the best players in the league right now, as a group. Most of them are Canadian.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
yeah... that's why Canada dominates MOST of the time in the world cup and olyimpics
Darkwingduk 2 years ago
@howler602, "Ball-Silly" just means his balls are silly, it can't be any worse then "Buttman" now that just sounds gay, sounds like he loves it in the ass. Anyway, Canada is awesome and you know it, oh and please learn how to spell "laugh" it took me about 15 hours to read your whole comment because of your poor education in USA.
Dannyraynumba1 2 years ago
this topic is dead until june.
tend 2 years ago
of course i have. toronto would absolutely go nuts if they ever won a stanley cup.
good thing it won't ever happen. (sic)
tend 2 years ago
With Burke at the helm, changes are on the way, we'll be a contender in a few years.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Here is a link that you may all enjoy reading google "a legal analysis of the phoenix coyotes situation". It was written by a contract litigation lawyer and he states his opinions on this case.
go4a24 2 years ago
and for the love of god don't think for an instant that i wouldn't love another team in sw ontario. i cheered for the failed leafs for 25 years, and i have had enough.
i hate the fucking organization, i hate the teacher's pension...i need an alternative.
i am merely trying to wrap my head around why the LEAGUE has been against this move 3 times now, beyond any of the excuses this guy offered in this video.
tend 2 years ago
I hate the teachers union as well, with the money that team makes they should have had good stanley cup runs, now its too late you can't buy stanley cups anymore. I think Bettman does have issues with bringing teams to Canada. I also think that there are some owners of losing teams that think they should have the option of moving into South Ontario first and the last reason I think is that the NHL knows that a NHL team in South Ontario is worth a lot more then 217.5 Million.
go4a24 2 years ago
Well that's fine and dandy specualtion but most of what I am saying are quotes taken from various articles regarding the opinions of those envolved.
When I suggest that American teams don't like the thought of trying to sell tickets for their team to play some obscure sw city...it's because that's what i read.
when i say that toronto doesnt want this to happen and they have the power to veto the move...it's because that's what i read.
i would post links but you cant post links here.
tend 2 years ago
I admit that I am using common sense "speculation" on a lot of the stuff that I am saying but I will not believe everything that I read. I know that the league has a rule giving teams territorial rights, I also know that challenging those territorial rights in a court of law will probably be successful. The only way Balsillie can move a team on a moments notice is to put it in Copps.
I don't believe it will stay there, I think Balsillie would agree to move to allow NHL to save face.
go4a24 2 years ago
My opinions aren't excuses, they're based on sound logic. Many people agree with my opinions, based on the conversations I've had with others about this topic. Also, read TSN. Daly and Bettman have said repeatedly that they don't like what this is doing because Balsillie is bypassing rules. "Balsillie". Laying the blame squarely at his feet. It's clear these two groups are not getting along.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I don't think anybody is going to debate the fact that Bettman doesn't like the fact that Balsillie is stepping on his nuts, small as they may be. The question is just how much can Bettman do that is out of the best interest of the league without their permission, thay can still fire him.
go4a24 2 years ago
your "3 rules of logic" are based on personal feelings on this.
- Bettman hates everything Canadian...
- Bettman hates Balsillie...
- Bettman doesn't want to admit that the experiments of marketing hockey in Phoenix Arizona has failed. ie; he's blinded with self pride beyond the ability to admit he is wrong.
Dude. honestly...these are not REAL excuses. Dig deeper. Read the articles...find out who stands to lose with this move.
tend 2 years ago
I said there are three possibilities, and I ranked them in increasing likelihood. I never said I espoused #1. I said I thought it was a 50/50 combo of #2 and #3. Listen next time.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I think all 3 are crap.
think about it. Just going to court is going to cost the NHL millions of dollers. And the only reasons you can come up with is because of bettman's emotions.
"hi board of directors, i'm going to need millions of dollers now to fight this buy out in court, because i don't like balsillie and have a personal affection for hockey in phoenix!"
uhmm....I don't think so.
tend 2 years ago
Well, actually, the board of directors and Bettman share their distaste for Balsillie. He could be using the excuse with the board of directors that he has to make an example of anyone who breaks the rules (which to an extent is true), but if it had been someone else who had done it, or it had been a team that Bettman hadn't personally installed and propped up, I don't think Bettman would be going hammer and tongs here.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Either way, we've both stated our opinions several times, we're going in circles, and I'm bored with this now. If you want to keep talking, be my guest, but I'm done with this conversation.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
But again, even if all the other teams in the league wanted this move to happen, Toronto simply has to say "no" and order Gary to fight it anyway possible.
because remember, Bettman works for the league.
tend 2 years ago
So the people who don't want this move
- Toronto and Buffalo
- All the teams currently struggling, as the salary cap would go up.
- most of the American teams don't like the prospect of trying to sell tickets to home games featuring a small market city nobody has heard of from Canada.
tend 2 years ago
You keep saying that the struggling teams don`t want anymore money making teams in the NHL but I don`t believe that. Every sportswriter that I have read has said nothing but positive comments about a losing team being replaced by a winning team. The only issue that I can see the other owners having is the fact that they know how much another team in southern Ontario could make. They probably could have sold a team in that area for much more.
go4a24 2 years ago
because all this would do is drive up the salaries, based on the current CBA.
struggling teams who are getting by off of handouts would just get bigger handouts in having to deal with a tougher salary cap.
it does them no good. and widens the gap.
tend 2 years ago
The salary cap is based on a % of how much money the NHL earns. The more teams you have earning money the less teams you have drawing funds from the pool and adding to it. You are suggesting that Hamilton would only break even after ticket sales, concessions and merchandising (since Phoenix lost 10 mill/year by increasing the overall NHL by 10 mill/year you're stating that they will only brek even)
go4a24 2 years ago
no i'm actually suggesting that hamilton would be successful. increasing league revenues and driving up the salary cap.
tend 2 years ago
Yeah but they can't drive up the salary cap more then what the NHL makes. If there is still an issue then the NHL needs to make the richer teams pay a higher % of their profits to the pool for the poorer teams. That is the price they pay for forcing teams that can't pay their bills to stay in cities that are not supporting them.
go4a24 2 years ago
The struggling teams would get a bigger cut of the profit sharing here. Take a have-not team, convert it into a have team, they're not only not sucking up money, but now they're contributing to the have-nots. Even with the salary cap increase, the have-nots still earn more this way.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
in a sort of circular logic kind of way............ if another team enters s.w.o, the leafs will have to get better, which will only increase their earnings. i just can't see them losing money on this.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
It boils down to this.
More people stand to lose from this than to gain with regards to the NHL (not the NHLPA)
If this was nothing but a win win scenerio for the NHL, it would have happened by now. The board of Directors who control Bettman would have either let Balsillie get a team in SW Ontario, or they would have already expanded to SW Ontario.
More people stand to lose than gain. It's that simple.
tend 2 years ago
The people in power stand to lose. Yes, Toronto and Buffalo may lose a small amount of revenue, but actually, the NHL as a whole will make more money by having a team in Hamilton. Also, you'll be taking one team from the have-nots and putting them in the "have" category, meaning that there's more money for the "have-nots". What happens to the Board of Directors if the team moves to Southern Ontario? A few bruised egos.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
That's where I disagree.
If the revenue to the NHL in SW Ontario is currently 100 mil/year, adding a second team MIGHT increase the area revenue up to say...120 mil/year.
In other words, the market here is already tapped pretty well. Those who would like hockey, already give money in some way or another to the nhl. (be it through Montreal, Toronto, Buffalo or Ottawa)
Adding another team, while great for the fans, would just divide the pie. it wouldn't CREATE many new fans.
tend 2 years ago
I don't know where you get your figures from but your looking right now at a Pheonix team that loses 10 mill/year. There is one thing that nobody disagrees with, another team in the Toronto area is a gold mine.
Lets say they only get 15000 fans per home game, Leafs average over 19000 and the Copps holds 18000. 15000 fans multiplied by 42 home games multiplied by $100 per ticket thats over 60 mill, the salary cap is 50 mill and that doesn`t include concessions or merchandise.
go4a24 2 years ago
Even without considering concessions and merchandising you are already making 20 mill more per season. As far as suggesting that you are not going to get anymore hockey fans because anybody who likes hockey is already a Leaf or Sabres fan, that`s not true. When Hamilton makes that playoffs there are going to be people partying in the streets, do you think people won`t get caught up in that.
go4a24 2 years ago
actually i AM including concessions and advertising.
Don't consider those hard numbers I am merley suggesting the growth would by a 5th greater than it already is.
gate receipts make up the smallest revenue to a hockey club. especially one in the Toronto region.
tend 2 years ago
While it would draw people away from Toronto on the merchandising side of things, it would make money through tickets and concessions alone. Think about it. Every single Leafs game is sold out. Hamiltonian fans can barely afford to see a Leaf game so they just don't go. Suddenly an NHL team is in their town with tickets that are affordable and an arena that's nearby and accessible. The ACC still sells out, and Copps sells out. Cha-Ching!
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
dude, Bay St. et al. buys most of the leafs' season tickets. they've been doing this for a long time. there's a long waiting list for these ~20years. whatever is left, generally sells on a 1st come 1st serve basis...
yu215479 2 years ago
gate receipts is the smallest source of incomes for Toronto.
tend 2 years ago
Everyone knows that the Leafs and Sabres are going to lose money if a team goes to Hamilton. I don't think you'll see as big a drop in merchandising as everyone is suggesting. When you have two teams that are that close together everybody want to show who their favorite team is
go4a24 2 years ago
no of course they will, again that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that everyone who would like hockey already supports hockey with one of the current nhl teams.
all that would happen is the pie would be divided into 3 instead of 2.
people who now buy toronto crap, would stop and buy hamilton crap.
NEW fans, (fans who right now buy nothing nhl related) wouldn't be that many people.
this market is currently tapped and sold on hockey.
tend 2 years ago
I think you underestimate how many people would become hockey fans if their city gets a team.
go4a24 2 years ago
i dont underestimate how many CONEVERTED fans will support their team.
but common dude, this is SW Ontario...the MECA of hockey. EVERYBODY loves hockey already, and has a team they cheer for.
If you live in SW Ontario, and you havn't discovered hockey yet to decide if you like it, you've been living under a rock.
tend 2 years ago
Have you ever seen playoff fever? I don't know where you live but if you live in Toronto you know about the way the streets get overrun when the leafs win a series. Do you think that the same types of parties happen in Hamilton? Not the honking the horns and the occasional person on the street waving their arms around I mean the you can't drive on any of the roads because they have just become overwhelmed with people. I didnt watch baseball until the Jays got into the world series
go4a24 2 years ago
Nice job, this was completely informed, accurate, and your speech was very fluid.
scarmody53 2 years ago
Thank you very much!
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
"MLSE officials declined comment but have insisted privately that whatever losses the league has incurred from the Coyotes pale compared to the revenue that would be lost from another team in the Toronto area."
It boils down to this.
You won't be creating any NEW fans in this area, those who will like hockey, already watch it.
All that would happen is the pie would be divided into two. (or 3 if you count Buffalo)
tend 2 years ago
LMFAO this is the funniest thing I have read that you written so far. They haven`t discussed it publicly but in private they have discussed this, who does that make you. Can you hear what I`m saying right now. Does that mean that the Coyotes gained no fans since the NHL came in. Hamilton residents will become hockey fans based solely on the fact that they just received an NHL hockey franchise.
go4a24 2 years ago
Another article and interesting quote...
The suit also takes aim at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, which owns the Toronto Maple Leafs, alleging it has colluded with the league for years to preserve market power in the Greater Toronto Area. Prohibiting relocation deprives hockey fans of increased competition, lower prices, higher quality and more variety, the suit alleged.
tend 2 years ago
quote taken from another article from yesterday...(if there was still any doubt of what I'm talking about)
"League members "have conspired with and through the NHL to maintain monopoly power in their `home markets' or `home territories' by refusing to allow the relocation of NHL clubs to markets where existing clubs currently have franchises," the document contends.
The move to Hamilton would invade areas already claimed by the Toronto Maple Leafs and Buffalo Sabres as their fan base."
tend 2 years ago
LOL do you know that this quote is telling you exactly what I have been saying. This is what Ballsillie is saying, it is why he is fighting the league. Maintaining monopoly power is illegal. If it were not illegal, you would see only one store selling items within a certain area. No more fights Rogers & Blockbuster, Wal-Mart & Superstore no more choices, bring on the price gouging aka Maple Leafs
go4a24 2 years ago
I agree, but at the same time, you can't have each and every millionaire who wants to start up a team where ever they want...the ability to do so.
tend 2 years ago
If the NHL had control of the team signed over to them, than that kills the chance of Balsillie getting the team by 100 percent (not 80)
and yes, the board of governors and Bettman, are not impressed with this 3rd attempt of Balsillie trying to strong arm himself into owning a hockey team, regardless of how much SW Ontario would love the move.
Basically Balsillie hasn't done himself any favors.
tend 2 years ago
The NHL has had control over the Coyotes since roughly the all star break, or around that time. So Moyes had no right to try and file for chapter 11. That kills about 80% chance of Ballsillie gets any part of the team. Also, Bettman does hate Ballsillie, and with good reason, he doesnt even try and play by the rules, he just comes in and starts waving around money trying to buy a team. And hes tried to sell tickets for a team that he didnt even own yet, and he got on Bettmans bad side from that.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
Comment removed
tend 2 years ago
Oh why didn`t you say so, Iguess there is no need for them to be in court right now. Unless you listen to the other side who state that Moyes had every right to sell his team. Balsillie did try to work with the NHL to put a teamin southern Ontario and they don`t want it. Bettman wants everyone to think that Balsillie is being unreasonable to give him a leg up in court, this is Balsillie`s last chance for a team.
go4a24 2 years ago
Thats step 1 in court next time is to see if Moyes had any right to file for bankruptcy, if he doesnt, it ends there. But even then, When he tried to buy the Preds, he tried to sell season tickets in Hamilton, when there was a clause for new owners to have to make a good faith to keep the team where it was. (in Nashville) Ballsillie has this bad problem of waving around money, and its worked for RIM, but it hasnt worked in the NHL, if he would of played by the rules, im sure he would have a team
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
The NHL is suggesting that Moyes did not have the right to sell the team, NHL will lose this battle, just because you lend someone money does not give you ownership rights unless it is explicit. The NHL immediately stripped all ownership rights away from Moyes when they found out he claimed bankruptsy, that would suggest at that time he still had ownership rights. Bettman has no problem withBalsillie owning a team, he has issue of him moving a team.
go4a24 2 years ago
depends entirely on what these documents contained in small print, that Moyes apparently signed to the NHL.
/shrug
tend 2 years ago
Well, I am just speculating. There obviously is some kind of an arguement and that explains why it needs to go to trial...so we will see what happens.
tend 2 years ago
can you prove that? where's the proof? why would j.b. even make an offer, and incur millions in legal fees if he didn't think he had a good chance of acquiring the 'yotes? thew count and the nhl have repeatedly lied about the status, fiscal and otherwise of the 'yotes and all the other teams who are in trouble, and there's a whole bunch of them. j.b.'s gonna get ateam. it may not be phoenix, but..... and that also means theweasel known as bettman is outy, yo.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
He does, but like I said, it all boils down to whatever it is Moyes signed to the NHL.
Obviously theirs an arguement otherwise the courts wouldn't have set a date for June.
But it's my personal opinion that the NHL is going to win round 3.
tend 2 years ago
Because thats where JB got all his money was from waving around money, and it works for RIM (got sued for stealing others patents for blackberrys, bought them out). And that doesnt work in the NHL. Hes had 3 tries to buy a team, and he hasnt done it the right way any of the times, which has him in Bettman's blacklist.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
two tries. plus this one which is not over yet. what ever happened to if you don't succeed, try, try again.? i'm pretty sure that if this was an american trying to take over a canadian team in the same way that the nhl and the count would be completely onside.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
Try again, but change what didnt work last time, and he hasnt done that. Even then, Moyes didnt have the right to file for bankruptcy.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
and once again, i ask you, where's the proof? if you believe bettman, i got some great swamp land i'll sell you cheap. for months the nhl has said, in all kinds of media, especially the fan 590 ( at least 4 times a month) that the league had not taken over the 'yotes. at the very best, he's a lying sack of shit.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
The NHL has all the liabilities of Phoenix since...when, who knows, because saying that would ruin the value of the Coyotes and shoo off any new investors.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
for the third time.. how do you know that? did bettman personally show you the documents? why is this question so difficult for you to grasp? i hate tom cruise but i'm gonna quote him anyway 'SHOW ME THE MONEY' or papers signing over control. if the nhl actually had these papers, they would have shown them to the bankruptcy judge on thursday and that would be that. but, they don't got. so there. unless....you're gary bettman, aren't you?
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
olaf relax.
if you read a fucking news article you would understand that is what is in contention for fuck sakes.
the NHL says they have papers that moyes signed on 3 seperate occasions that sign control of the club over, and more specifically prevent him from the ability to file for bankruptsy.
moyes is claiming that he is still in power of the club and is allowed to file for bankruptsy.
do these papers inlcude what the nhl says? we will both find out.
tend 2 years ago
i'm not actually all that unrelaxed./ liquidfire dude keeps insisting that the nhl owns the 'yotes. why is he so sure of this?all i'm asking is that he show me the proof. i've been reading all kinds of articles, both from canada and the states.
but, whatever happens, it's fascinating stuff.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
11 of the 24 american teams lose money. all six canadian teams earn money, and in fact, the canadian teams provide 31% of the income for the league, although there's some debate about that figure, some people think it's more like 50%.
so if i was one of the american team owners making a profit, i'd be saying giddyup, let's move more teams to southern ontario.
bettman can't pull the wool over their eyes much longer, in my opinion.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
i'd be suprised if all 6 canadian clubs are ok now.
as of 2004 5 out of 6 of them were in fact in very serious trouble.
of course the new cba saved all of them. but i'm still unsure if they are holding their own or if they are being propt up by the other clubs.
tend 2 years ago
The only reason the Canadian clubs earned 31% of the income was because the loonie was strong last year, now its back down to normal and even dropping.
Do you remember before the lockout where all the Canadian teams were hemmoraging money left and right? Back when they asked the government for bailout money to stay afloat? Boy, Canadians have one good economic year, and thats all they talk about, not remembering what happened 5 years ago.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
i don't totally disagree with you, but that bad shit was when our dollar was below 60 cents u.s. if it stays around 80 c, we're still going to do better. ( i think)
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
The loonie isn't back to the level it was 5 years ago. Not even close. Back then it was, about 69 American cents wasn't it? Then it grew, now it's levelling off and staying relatively steady just above 90 cents right? The Canadian teams didn't ask for bailout money, I don't know where you get your facts. They were crying for a CBA. So yeah, the CBA did keep them afloat, and now they're doing much better than they were. It's a combination of the CBA and the stable loonie.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
youtube wont post links i dont think, but ESPN did a good article about it, so google "Here's why you shouldn't feel too sorry for Canadian franchises" and read it, Its quite a good read. And the loonie is just under 87 cents right now. Also, thanks for the video, it makes for good discussions.
Liquidfire3240 2 years ago
Thanks for mentioning that link. I remember when they were talking about the tax breaks years ago on grapevine and Don Cherry was saying that you have to give them the tax cuts or they were going to lose their teams. I did not know that the tax breaks were approved but it makes sense because I haven't heard of players whining about being sent to Canada for years because of the taxes.
go4a24 2 years ago
and why olaf, do you figure that is?
if this is such a money maker and good deal for the NHL (no just sw ontario) then why wouldn't they do it?
what you think it's because they hold a grudge?
fuck no.
the league wants to make money. if it worked for the entire league to have a second team in sw ontario, it would have happened already.
stop closing off your mind and start trying to dig for the REAL truth beyond..."bettman just hates canadians"
tend 2 years ago
how do u even come up with putting a team in a desert. lol
clayman1919 2 years ago
No, he looks stupid because he makes it sound like he tripped and fell one night into ownership of an NHL hockey club.
tend 2 years ago
I have heard that the offers that Bettman was trying to set up to sell the team were as low as 30 million and as high as 175 million. Lets take the the middle ground, I am being offered 100 million dollars for a business I have lost 300 million dollars on and all of the NHL will be happy. I now have a second offer from someone who is going to pay me over twice that amount but now everyone in the NHL is going to be upset with me. I have chosen to worry about my business.
go4a24 2 years ago
"I got into this thing kind of by accident," Moyes said in brief remarks outside the downtown Phoenix courthouse. "I loaned (previous owner) Steve Ellman $5 million one night to keep the team in Phoenix. Now I'm into it over $300 million. I'm going to be lucky to get $100 million out of it."Moyes indicated he was open to another bid to buy the team."
The way he comes off here, sounds kind of stupid.
tend 2 years ago
Pheonix fan "What the hell's hockey?"
hg133 2 years ago
But after further thought today, I think the only hope for this to work, is if Basillie (by some miracle) gets control of the team...and is hell bent on bringing it here to SW Ontario, the best fit for him and this team in the league, is to put it in Toronto.
But like I said, I think this Moyes guy is a wee bit of a flake, and that this will all be yet another dead issue come June.
tend 2 years ago
But you can't put it in Toronto if MLSE can veto the move. Plus, in Toronto, you're either a Leafs fan, or you're not a hockey fan. I don't see many fans making a switch from one TO team to the other.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Well coming from an exleaf fan I would cheer for an alternative then following the Leafs.
And you are right, the Leafs do have the power to veto any move in their 80 km radius.
I'mjust telling you the best place for a second team in SW Ontario to fit in with regards to the rest of the league.
Kind of a catch 22 situation, huh?
Can't put it in Toronto, because Toronto is a bunch of greedy fucks.
Can't put it anywhere else, because that hurts every American team in the league.
tend 2 years ago
Well, Toronto can be greedy as an organization, no doubt. But is it necessarily greed here? I mean, it's just business sense that you don't want to share your market. You don't go into business to help others, you go into it to make money. So if someone tries to get in on your territory, any company will fight it. But I think when you go to a city like Hamilton, and they're still trying to veto it, then yeah, it would be a greedy move.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
Of course. But Toronto needs to realise that the market is too big for just them.
Eventually this is going to HAVE to happen.
(2 teams in the Toronto area)
tend 2 years ago
Of course the leafs are going to try to stop this, reasons are obvious. Wal mart and Superstore go to court each time the other tries to open up in "their territory" they always end up losing. The last time it happened, in Aurora, the Wal mart spokesperson said that it is a normal part of the process, Superstore knew that they were going to lose in court but the money that they make while fighting to keep Wal Mart from opening is worth it.
go4a24 2 years ago
Another interesting angle I read today in yet another article...regarding small city's/townships in Canada and the NHL.
While these places can sellout tickets here in Canada, and become successful...these places have a negative impact on every American franchise in the league.
"How can we get people to buy tickets for the New York Rangers or L.A Kings to host a game against Kitchener?"
seeing as how 24 teams in this league are currently State side, no wonder the league is fighting this
tend 2 years ago
Any American hockey cities will want to see the Canadian hockey teams, As for the two teams you mentioned, the New York Rangers will sell out and LA Kings won't. The Rangers won't sell out in LA and the Kings will sell out in New York. It also depends on the product you bring in, players like Ovechkin draw fans.
go4a24 2 years ago
this isn't a matter of my opinion. I read this from an article last night regarding this situation.
GM's not wanting to be named have mentioned that it would be a hard sell to get people to want to come see a team from kitchener or some other no name city/town play.
And yes, they considered Hamilton a minor leauge city.
tend 2 years ago
how many fans care who ovechkin or crosby play for? they go to see a player, for the most part. that said, SOME teams are draws because of who they are, i.e. leafs or habs, wings or bruins.
olafbigandglad 2 years ago
this isn't my opinion. I only am quoting what I read in an article that had interviewed some American Hockey owners that didn't want to be named.
It seems pretty plausible that the United States fans especially in the Southern States would be fickle enough to not bother going to see their team play against some small market city like Hamilton, Kitchener or London.
tend 2 years ago
Reading a news article today in the paper, and a few quotes in their by this "Moyes" guy doesn't seem to be all there.
How do you accidently fall into ownership of a team?
And the NHL seems to be pretty confident that he signed (on 3 seperate occasions mind you) ownership and control over to the NHL.
I think this is gonna be a dead issue come june.
tend 2 years ago
I don't know of too many retarted multi millionaires who run their own businesses. His lawyer also said that he never relinquished any power of ownership to the team. He wasn't told that his ownership powers were gone until he did something the league didn't want him to.
go4a24 2 years ago
Well, this guy said he "accidently" took ownership in the first place. And is open to any offer on his club, "not just Balsillie's"
And going by what other crap he was saying, he just doesn't strike me as all there with regards to this situation.
tend 2 years ago
So he confused the word mistakenly with accidently, have you never screwed up words, he's not a lawyer and probably has never been to college. Obviously you can't accidently buy a hockey team
go4a24 2 years ago
that are on the sunbelt will tell the rest of the owners that he wants to move his team there, maybe even Phoenix. The entire NHL Board OG is not happy about the way Balsillie went about going around the proper steps and break NHL rules. The NHL is going to put another team in the Southern Ontario area but the perfect scenario for the NHL would be to beat Balsillie in court and then allow one of their current owners to move to Southern Ontario
go4a24 2 years ago
The owners always try to show solidarity. It is obvious that both the Leafs and Sabres will fight this move, it does not mean as much to the other clubs. Once the owners get together behind closed doors you are going to see that some of these owners are not going to think that it is such a bad idea to let a billionaire come in and open a franchise in an area where it is sure to succeed. I do believe that one of the poorer teams that are on the s
go4a24 2 years ago
The leafs have, under the rules of the NHL the power to veto anything in Hamilton. But that doesnt mean they would be happy about a hockey club anywhere near SW Ont.
I think we both can agree that the Leafs stand to gain nothing from this.
But where you and I differ is to the extent of the influence that the Leaf have over this situation
I believe that even if Leafs ownership was the only vote against this move, that that would be enough to order Gary into fighting this tooth and nail.
tend 2 years ago
As far as the Leafs lowering ticket prices, that's not going to happen. The scalpers are still going to buy up all of the Leaf tickets(they might have to lower their prices) Bob McKenzie said that he thinks Bettman might be so upset because, for a team in southern Ontario, the NHL should have gottena lot more then what Balsillie paid. Maybe he's right, maybe that's why Bettman is so upset.
go4a24 2 years ago
Well, they would have to lower ticket prices for people to continue to buy their tickets. Otherwise, you could just drive over the Kitchener, Hamilton, London, wherever the team ends up, and watch an NHL team for much less. The thing is, this new team would draw away the fans who view the NHL as an elastic product. If they're just watching for NHL action and aren't devoted solely to the Leafs, they simply would switch allegiance.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
All of the Leafs season tix will still be sold out, the few people who do decide to give them up and do the trek to the other building will have their season tix bought up. The scalpers will still buy up all the rest of the tix and you or I would still have to buy tix from them
go4a24 2 years ago
But with the lowering of the prices by the box office, it stands to reason that the scalpers will also lower their prices. They will still make a nice profit, as well as being able to sell out more of their inventory.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
They will not lower the prices at their box office unless they are unable to sell the tix at what they are asking for them now. Right now a scalper buys a ticket for $60 and sells it to you for $100, if another team comes then the scalper will buy it for $60 but you may only pay $80. If the scalper stops making money off of the tix then they will stop buying them and you will be able to buy your ticket straight from ticketmaster for $60. The Leafs won't have to drop their prices.
go4a24 2 years ago
If the league continues to try to keep the teams that are losing money in cities that will continue to lose money and then try to tell the players that their salaries have to continue to decrease because they have decided that they don't want money making franchises, as tend says, then the players need to go back on strike.
go4a24 2 years ago
God, I hope there isn't another strike. The NHL needs to recognize that marketing is a good thing, and there's nothing wrong with holding exhibition games in places like Kansas City or Las Vegas. But they need to understand that it will be a long time before you should ever consider putting a team there full time. Phoenix clearly wasn't ready, and neither will those two markets. There are a bunch of teams in our league that should either fold or move.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
The NHLPA has said, that they would support any decision that was made. Be it a club in Phoenix or a move to SW Ontario.
But what was cute was that they made it subtely clear that they are more excited about the move to SW Ontario, because they as a group know what that does to the leauge's revenue, and subsequently, the baseline salary.
tend 2 years ago
All I have heard Bettman say is that is that he is not happy with Balsilly going around the leagues regulations to try to put a team where he wants it. Let's face facts Bettman has stopped a team from going to south Ontario so many times already Balsilly knew he wasn't getting one unless he was a little under-handed about it. All of the league owners want a poor team to change ownership and stay in the city but they don't want to lose money in the process.
go4a24 2 years ago
There are anti monopolization laws in North America and they hold precedent over any NHL league rules. Perfect examples of this law being enforced is Bell Canada and Microsoft, both lost in court because they were trying to put a monopoly on their products. The reason why monopolies are illegal is to prevent price gouging, something the Leafs have been guilty of for a long time. All Balsillie has to do is prove there is a fan base to support two teams, which he has.
go4a24 2 years ago
I do not believe that the Leafs can veto a decision to place a team in southern Ontario. I read the article and it sounds to me like a league rule not a North American law. If the majority of owners choose to change that rule then it will be changed, the Leafs are sitting on a goldmine and they don't want it encroached upon. If I open up a store in a good loction does that mean someone else can't open a store across the street and sell the same thing?
go4a24 2 years ago
It is a league rule, but the NHL argues that their rules are completely legal. It will be interesting if Balsillie challenges it based on the anti-monopolization laws, but I don't think there is real motivation in the league from other owners to change it. If Balsillie does go the court route, it could be a long, drawn-out battle before this team lands in Hamilton.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
It will be a long drawn out process, I can't see this being settled before the end of the month
go4a24 2 years ago
Well, like I said, I believe this possibility was already descussed and decided on a LONG time ago at a meeting far far away, between Gary and the owners (Leafs) regarding what the owner's stance was about another team in SW Ontario.
Gary is just doing what he was ordered to do. And that is fight any way possible, any attempt in moving a team here.
tend 2 years ago
If Balsillie wins in court, it doesn't matter what the Leafs want. Like you said, there are more options than just Hamilton in play here. London might be able to support a team, Kitchener/Waterloo is another option. But the first step is winning the decision that Balsillie was not acting illegally when hammering out the agreement to buy the team from Moyes.
But it will be a long process. If the league loses, they will launch appeals. Either way, there won't be a team in Hamilton next season.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
I will say that, until I hear Bettman say that the board of governors have voted to keep Balsillie out. I believe that Bettman has not yet gotten together with all of the owners to discuss the entire situation. I don't know what the other offer was and I don't think the other owners know yet either. That is going to have a big effect on the decision. Was the 30 million that the Coyotes owe the NHL being written off as part of the sale?
go4a24 2 years ago
Bettman and the board don't like Balsillie, and they all want their rules upheld.
Bettman hasn't had a meeting with anyone yet, I think he'll find that team owners may be sympathetic to Balsillie, Paul Kelly, the head of the NHLPA himself said that Balsillie is the kind of guy you would want to have as an owner.
The 30 million the Coyotes own the NHL would be repaid, 100 cents on the dollar. Most times the creditors are paid 80 cents on the dollar. The NHL would rather lose money.
Heffiewiggle 2 years ago
As an ex Maple Leaf fan, you are god damn right I want an option of another team to cheer for that wasn't so fucking corporate.
tend 2 years ago
but the bottom line here is this is NOT gary bettman trying to stop this. Its the board of directors of the nhl and most noticably, the leafs.
tend 2 years ago