John 3:16 continued: Ephesians 2 gives commentary on these verses because we find that salvation is by the grace of God through faith. Thus faith is by the grace of God. So we can only have faith by grace. So we choose or not to have faith but we can only have make the chocie of faith b/c of the grace of God.
Malachi 1 2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Bible: Romans 9:3"as it is written Jacob I loved and EsauI hated."
@MrBlackhaw - Sir, the Bible is the best commentary on the Bible. Read Luke 14:26. Is Jesus really telling us to hate our Father and Mother or saying to love them less? Gen. 25:23 - You have two NATIONS in your womb. So, the Calvinist understanding of Romans 9 is false and therefore the whole of their (your) logic is built on a false premise.
@msb0000 Okay what does Luke 14:26 mean? Romans 9 and Malachi surely are not talking hating in the way we think about it. Ok. But it is not saying that God has to love all either. And it is about God choosing Jacob over Esau. So God does not love everyone in the way we think of love either. And BTW the verses in Malachi and Romans do not address nations. they adress people. Although there are national consequences.
@MrBlackhaw - Actually, the Bible does say God loves everyone: John 3:16. It's just a pity Calvinists deny its meaning as well as so many other passages. When Paul quotes Gen., he is most definitely quoting in its context: nations.
@msb0000 Why do you not address what I spoke about in my last post? What does Luke 14:26 mean? What does the passage I quoted from Romans and Malachi mean?
@MrBlackhaw - why so argumentative? Romans 9 in the context of Luke 14:26 means that God didn't hate Esau, but loved him less than Jacob. So what does John 3:16 mean?
@msb0000 Not argumenative. Just do not want you to dodge questions. So God loved Jacob less? So he loves some less than others? He loves you more than someone who lives in a worse situation. How much less? How is this less love demonstrated in real life? Maybe he did not die for those he loved less. Confusing answer. Brings up more questions than answers.
@MrBlackhaw - No sir. You are making it confusing. Jesus said the Gospel is easy for a little child to understand. Jesus loves all-died for all. Those that believe will be saved. Those that believe not will not be in the Kingdom.
@msb0000 John 3:16 means God demonstrated His love for the world that he he sent His Son to die for the world and that whoever chooses to believe in him has a chance at eternal life. If you read the next verses it is clear that some will not have faith and will be damned.
M. Luthers "WRATH THEORY" of the Atonement came out of the 1500's... If Jesus took the WRATH of everyone who ever lived, then unbelievers should NOT take the WRATH a 2nd time, otherwise u have "Double Jeopardy".
Yet it says He is a Ransom for ALL (1 Tim.2:6), he is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (1 Jn.2:2), that one act of righteousness leads to justification & life for ALL MEN (Rom.5:18)...
So the Atonement has to be properly defined or "ALL" & "WORLD" have to be redefined.
1 John 2:2 is a generic term referring to mankind, not all individuals on earth. If Christ paid the price for the sins of those who won't believe, why will they then pay the penalty for their own sins? Doesn't really make sense to pay for the same thing twice, does it? I love how this guy continues to speak of the Calvinist viewing things through their preconceived doctrinal glasses. He obviously isn't doing that at all.
@metanoeo1 Oh for crying out loud... 1 John 2:2 is a generic term???? How far are you calvinists willing to go to make out all words that mean 'all' and 'world', 'not all' and 'elect'?
Yes, this is a generic term. If Christ died for the sins of everyone one earth, why then do people go to hell? How can you logically believe that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of those who would go to hell, but the then go to hell and again pay the penalty for their sins? Talk about forcing your beliefs into the Scriptures. See John 10:11, 15; 17:9, 20; Acts 20:28; Rom. 8:32, 37; Eph. 5:25.
@metanoeo1 I don't believe people go to hell. As you are so learned in biblical exegesis, please explain to me the meaning of the word 'gehenna'. I have a hunch I'm in for a whopper of a fire-and-brimstone interpretation.
@metanoeo1 By the way, if people do go to hell, that makes your theology even more disgusting, as your god has then specifically created people to be damned for eternity and suffer forever. I can just feel the 'Good' part of the 'Good News' in calvinism...
@metanoeo1 Furthermore, the letters of Paul make mention of the word 'world' 69 times in 61 verses. It refers to several meanings, but NEVER to the word 'elect'. The same is the case with 1 John 2:2. In no way, shape or form could you possibly read the word 'world' here as 'the elect', NOR as 'the non-Jews/Gentiles'.
@shteve77 John 20:30-31 explains the Entire Purpose for the Gospel of John.
The ONLY consistent logical rebuttal a Calvinist can give is this:
"Man is Totally Depraved and CANNOT Believe the writings of John, it should read; 'but these are written that God may regenerate His ELECT into Believing in Jesus & that By Believing, His ELECT WILL have life in His name"
@apollos6640 Yes, sometime I think that Calvinists should just do what the JW's have done and re-do their own translation. That way they can just remove all the pesky verses that declare that Christ died for all men, loves all men and wants all men to believe.
@shteve77 , rkg62976 Declares that Jesus drank the "Cup of Gods WRATH", he is blindly following the teachings of his Reformed fathers, I've heard Paul Washer say the same... but they're WRONG.
Jesus said to James & John the sons of Zebedee, "You WILL DRINK MY CUP.."
What is Jesus saying? That James & John will taste Gods WRATH as well? No. "The Cup" is the Persecution from men, NOT "Gods WRATH"
@shteve77 there are DOZENS of scriptural examples.
Paul quotes God from the Old Testament regarding the Jews REFUSING to "obey the gospel", "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient & obstinant people"
Why is God holding out his hands to obstinant Jews to REPENT, whom Jesus DIDNT DIE for?
Calvinism is in opposition to the Work of God on the Cross.
Calvinism glorifies SATAN by crediting God for the Sins of the World.
@rbmath... "Please provide ANY scripture in proper context that shows God's grace in awakening a dead sinner comes SECOND..."
The Prodigal son DIED then he himself returned to the Father when he "came to himself" Luke 15:17-18 "But when he came to himself, he said, '...I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you." Then the father said celebrated declaring that the son "was DEAD & is ALIVE AGAIN".
Dr. Giesler story of the farmer and the 3 drowning boys is a funny one at the end of this video. He says that God is able to save them but Man is able to resist the will of GOD!
Did this "Dr" forget to read the Book of Jonah? Jonah "Resisted" the Will of God until he was swallowed by a Fish, then after he accepted the Will of God. This Dr. Geisler needs to understand that When God wants a man to do something, he forces him to do it and...."HIS WILL BE DONE!"
God does love everyone, but He has a special, unique love for the elect. He loves them in a way where He guarantees forgiveness and salvation to them. That redemptive love does not apply to the reprobate/goats who are destined for hell.
I'm saved not because I chose God or loved God, but I am saved because you chose me and loved me.
1Jn.2:2-- Dr. Geisler should be focusing on the meaning of the word "propitiation", as the word "world" is used in many different ways in Scripture.
Propitiation: Gk. ἱλάσμος, ilasmos); means: an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party.
In other words, Jesus took upon Himself the wrath of God in the place of His people. So, in Geisler's theology, God has no more wrath upon the wicked, because Christ took everyone's judgment..this leads to UNIVERSAL SALVATION!
Some reject the idea that Christ took upon Himself God's wrath, this is an error!
Jesus prays to the Father: "remove this CUP from me" (Lk.22:42; Mt.26:42; Mk.14:36).
What does the "cup" symbolize?
Ps.11:6, 75:8; Is.51:17,22; Jer.25:15, 49:12; Rev.14:10, 16:19, 18:6...all speak of "the cup" of God's wrath.
If Jesus drank of the "cup" of God's wrath for every human being, then there is no wrath left for the wicked...this leads to the error of UNIVERSAL SALVATION!
RE: pond...Dr. Norman Geisler FALSE illustration of what Calvinism is... WHY does he continue to use this false illustration when he has been corrected more than once. He is once again misrepresenting what Calvinism is.
@rbmath you're right. He misrepresents what Calvinism says. It doesn't say that the farmer would just not save the drowning boys, but that the farmer would make sure there was no other option but that they swim in his pond, then the farmer would cause them to fall in, cause them to drown, not just refuse to hand them a preserver. Then, the farmer would take pleasure and glory in their drowning. You're right. Dr. Geisler should have better represented Calvinism.
@rbmath Can "dead people" sin? Your problem is you confuse spiritually dead people with physically dead. A dead person can't do anything including sin. Those that are dead in their sins are like men on death row. They are allready condemned. The death sentance has been passed. The second death at the great white throne in Rev20 awaits and there is nothing they can do to escape. That doesn't mean that they can't simply believe the message of the gospel, that Christ is Lord, died and was raised.
@shteve77 ..NO... Pointing out that the story Geisler uses, and your's are both fatally flawed...The people are not "drowning" they are DEAD. The men on "death row" are already dead as well, the death sentence was already carried out. Your problem is that you dishonestly represent what Calvinism really is...Please provide ANY scripture in proper context that shows God's grace in awakening a dead sinner comes SECOND.. FIRST they repent. THAN God applies his grace. Which is works salvation...
@shteve77 Its sad to see that you disagree with the divinely inspired scriptures.. You do answer understand the point I was making but you chose to ignore it.. scripture does NOT say, "men are DROWNING IN SIN" it say they are DEAD IN SIN. They cannot do ANYTHING SPIRITUALLY to save themselves. Ac7:51 was already answered.. If you believe people are dead in sin. THAN WHY DO YOU USE THE FALSE REASONING USED BY Geisler "DROWNING MEN"... You are inconsistent in your views...
@rbmath You still didn't answer. Can a dead man sin?????
You are trying to apply the characteristics of a physically dead person to a spiritually dead one.
Rev20:14"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
Are people alive on Earth right now who are not believers in the lake of fire? Of course not. But they will be, it's just a matter of time. It is you who are inconsistent in your views..
@shteve77 RE:Jn20:31.. So know you believe that people can believe WITHOUT the work of God in their life. Tell me please, WHICH comes FIRST... HUMAN BELIEVE or God's enabling grace? You know those scriptures that teach that its GOD who grants repentance...
@rbmath "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELEIVING you may have life in his name."Jn20:31
Read this very carefully. It is BY believing someone has life. This means that before someone believes they are DEAD. You believe God regenerated someone and makes them born again BEFORE they have believed. There is not such thing as a born again, regenerated unbeliever. Belief comes first then God gives life.
@rbmath I have allready told you that it is God who works in mens hearts, by convicting them of their sins by the Holy Spirit. This grace is NOT Irresistible.
You wrongly believe that a person is born again and regenerated BEFORE they believe. John 20:31 proves you wrong. Please explain what you think this verse is actually saying????
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELIEVING you may HAVE LIFE in his name."
@rbmath Another NON answer. You really have no idea how to answer it do you?
You say men are born again, have new life and are regenerated before they believe.
The Bible say the opposite, but instead of believing what the Bible says you have decided to ignore it and you will believe your own man made doctrine instead. You won't even attempt to try and address this verse either!
@shteve77 I know you believe in "works salvation" I know you can "proudly" say that you defied the clear scriptures as 1Co 2:14, Eph 2:8-10. You say it WAS ME BEFORE God's saving grace awoke me from spiritual death. You say it WAS ME BEFORE God's saving grace awoke me from spiritual death that submitted myself to God's laws even though scriptures teach its impossible. WE WENT THOUGH THIS ALREADY...
@rbmath Show me anywhere I have said anything of the sort?
No one would ever believe if not for the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God makes the first move towards men, not the other way around. Men are free to respond to or reject God's offer of salvation.
You are just running away because you have been asked about verses you can't reconcile with Calvinism.
Isa5:3-4, Jn20:31. Why don't you tell me what they are saying?
@shteve77. if you believe that God makes the first move.. Than it comes naturally that man cannot repent on his own 2Ti 2:25. Now why do you believe that Jesus can FAIL to perfectly obey God the Father's will for him in John 6:37-40.. I LOSE NOTHING. along with Heb 7:25..able to save to the uttermost..he always lives to make intercession for them... You do believe that Jesus is PERFECT savior? Or how about what John said in his Divinely Inspired letter 1Jn 2:19. And I DID answer you...
@rbmath If God makes the first move towards men it does not follow that He Irresistibly saves men. Yes Jesus is perfect, I have never said He is not. Scripture declares God "wants all men to be saved"2Tim2:4. We see in Matt23:37 that Jesus LONGED for the people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they didn't. God makes the first move. He loves all men, He wants all men to be saved but He does not make them believe. He ALLOWS them to go against His will and refuse His gift of salvation.
@shteve77 RE: If God makes the first move towards men it does not follow that He Irresistibly saves men)) So you're saying that when John who was Divinely Inspired to write 1Jn 2:19 he was WRONG.. Your view of Jesus perfection is not biblical. your basically saying. "Jesus is perfect in WANTING all men to be save BUT HE CANNOT save ALL the men He perfectly wants to save, His WANTING to save is perfect BUT HIS ACTIONS ARE NOT PERFECT" does NOT match with the context of Joh 6:37-40...
@shteve77 RE:Jesus wants... I already understand you UNbiblical view of Jesus. RE:What has 1Jn2:19 got to do with Irresistible Grace?.... it clearly shows that those who you say can resist grace were NEVER CHRISTIANS in the first place...
@shteve77 RE: Of course those resist God never become Christians. How does that support Irresistible Grace?.... So we come down to bottom issue once again, that is YOU think Jesus is the "perfect" savior ONLY IN WANTING others to be saved. When I think and scriptures teaches that Jesus is the PERFECT savior in WANTING AND HIS ACTIONS OF SAVING HIS SHEEP from the foundation of the world...
@shteve77 RE:"2Tim2:4. We see in Matt 23:37...I'm sure you already heard the answers to these scriptures... RE: He ALLOWS them to go against His will and refuse His gift of salvation..... So you DENY what God said. Isa 46:10...'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' ... Your very inconsistent in your views...
@rbmath Again, you simply ignore the verses you don't like. Mat23:37 which ever way you try and spin it shows that people that Christ LONGED to have them come to Him did not come.
So either, Christ wanted them to come but would not force them, or Christ lied and said He wanted them to come, but by His actions showed that He didn't.
@shteve77 RE: Mat23:37... We see in Matt23:37 that Jesus LONGED for the people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they didn't... You MISQUOTED the passage..."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! OH LOOK GOD DID GATHER THE CHILDREN SEE Act 2:41. Act 4:4 Act 13:48..as many as were APPOINTED to eternal life believed.
@rbmath I misquoted which part? "Mat23:37(NIV)"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
So Jesus was lamenting saying (HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED BUT...) meaning that now as in the past He wanted them to come to Him but THEY WERE NOT WILLING. I guess Jesus forgot they did really come and all would come! RUBBISH!
@shteve77 RE: (HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED BUT...) WOW you still MISQUOTE Mat23:37 NIV, NASB, HCSB, ASV, KJV, NKJV, LEB, ESV (How often would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN together). Of course the "NATURAL MAN" will NOT come to God, scriptures DO teach this.1Co 2:14, Rom 8:7. They also teach WHAT God HIMSELF does 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4, Act_13:48.. they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
@rbmath How could I possibly have MISQUOTED the verse when I copied and pasted it from the NIV online bible in it's entirety?
This is another verse you are simply ignoring. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem. He says "how often I have longed". That means as He is speaking and many times in the paste He has longed for the "children" of Jerusalem to come to him, but they "were not willing".
This shows that people that Jesus wanted to save were not saved. Irresistible Grace is a LIE!
@rbmath You just keep quoting TO GATHER YOUR CHILDREN TOGETHER as though that actually answers something. Jesus says He has often (in the past and now) LONGED to gather the children to Jerusalem, but He laments because He wants them to come to Him but they are not willing!
@shteve77 once again this WAS ANSWERED.. AGAIN what to expect of men who are dead in sin, hostile to God, cannot submit to God's law, have a deceitful heart, all the thoughts of his heart is evil, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin, cannot set himself free. AND THE CHILDREN WERE GATHERED AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT.. OLD TESTAMENT 1Ki_19:18, Rom_11:4, NEW TESTAMENT Act_4:4, Act_2:41.
@rbmath So Jesus was lamenting over the fact that He had OFTEN LONGED to gather the children, but they were not willing.....but He just forgot that they were really gathered? Why on earth was Jesus lamenting saying "how often I have longed to gather your children together..."?
@rbmath And as I pointed out from John 20:31. It is BY BELIEVING that we have life. Until the point we believe we are dead in our sins. WHEN we believe, God makes us born again and adopts us as children into His family.
@shteve77 RE: WHEN we believe, God makes us born again and adopts us as children into His family.... MEANING.. GOD HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIRST TO AWAKEN US TO BELIEVE... So Once again I'm right to say that you're VERY inconstant in your views. when you did say that its the work of the Holy Spirit...
@rbmath I think you are determined to try and change what I am saying. Listen very carefully. God makes the first move. No one would repent and turn to God with out the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so obviously for you to say I think quote "GOD HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIRST TO AWAKEN US TO BELIEVE" is NONSENSE!
@rbmath As I have allready showed in Jn20:31. Men are dead until they believe. It is only when they believe that they recieve life. The Calvinist believe men are given life, born again and regenerated BEFORE they believe. Scripture says you are wrong.
@shteve77 RE:Jn20:31. Men are dead until they believe. It is only when they believe that they recieve life .. So you're saying that these verses that are divinely Inspired are WRONG 1Co 2:14. Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, IT CANNOT... Your saying that spiritually dead/ hostile towards God/ CANNOT submit to God's law. CAN SUBMIT TO God's LAW TO REPENTANCE... your view is eisegesis...
@rbmath If I am reading John20:31 wrong please correct me and explain where I am in error. SIlly me, I guess when it said "AND THAT BY BELEIVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE" it must mean something other than, a person is dead until they believe and that when they believe they recieve life! Fell free to explain what this verse is actually saying then?
The story of the prodigal also shows a man described as DEAD who is says "when he came to his senses He said 'I will set out and go back to my father'"
@shteve77 RE: prodigal. Why do you bring up issues that were gone over before. Do you really think that I have changed my mind? You already admitted that its the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin or do you think that this one prodigal son (which is a story since no evidence exists that says that is a REAL TRUE LIFE STORY) is the lone exception. That the Holy Spirit had 100% NOTHING to do with this son's conversion. THIS IS what your saying, which is works salvation.
@rbmath Why do you think Jesus told this story? I see a pattern with your explanation of the Bible. If a verse contradicts Calvinism we just ignore it. It's just a song, or it's just a story. All doesn't really mean "all". World really means some!
@rbmath I have brought up the story of the prodigal son several times. Your response was to say it's a story.
True, it's a story Jesus told and surely Jesus had a reason and wants us to learn from the story. Jesus carefully tells the story about a DEAD man who "came to His senses" and "went back to His Father".
If I am interpreting this story wrongly then please explain what Jesus did mean by this story and what we can learn from it?
@shteve77 RE: prodigal son... ALREADY ANSWERED... I answered more than saying this.."it's a story".. You continue to be dishonest in what I answer. you need to deal with this BYE...
@rbmath You are being dishonest. You're "answer" to the prodigal son (words that Jesus spoke Himself) is that "it's a story". So tell me what was Jesus trying to teach us in this story?
@shteve77 as a teaching tool. its YOUR understanding that contradicts the bible. So when the Pharisees said in Joh_12:19. the world has gone after him. It MUST mean the ancient Chinese were then entire Roman empire and other ancient people who at that time NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST.. or does the CONTEXT give the proper meaning?
@rbmath Oh, context is certainly important, and you are guilty of taking this verse out of context to try and support your unbiblical view that Christ only died for some men and so limit the use of the word World in other passages.
Jn12:19"So the Pharisees said to one another, 'See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!' "
Is the Bible saying the whole world went after Him? No! Scripture records what these evil men said to one another...cont...
@rbmath ...It is an accurate Historical record of their conversation. There Words are not inspired, they are recorded in scripture, and clearly the Pharisees were exagerating! It is your understanding that contradicts what the Bible says!
@shteve77 .RE:.It is an accurate Historical record of their conversation ... WOW... So you would rather believe that an error is in the bible than to admit to being being. So your really saying, "The gospel author LIED about what was said" I only pointed out the CONTEXT is important when trying to understand the ALL THE DIVINELY INSPIRED WORD OF GOD...
@rbmath Where did I say there is an error in the Bible? Listen very carefully. The Bible records the fact that the Pharisees said to one another "see the whole world has gone after Him".
God is not saying that the whole world has gone after Him, God recorded in scripture the Words of the Pharisees and they exagerated.
Scripture records Peter at the trial say "He denied it again, with an oath: "I don’t know the man!""
Does that mean He didn't know Christ? No! He lied and scripture recorded it.
@shteve77 the CONTEXT in Mat_2:16 clarifies the word "all" and LIMITES IT MEANING..We have "all kinds, all in the house, all these things, all the city, all that district, For they all had her, All authority in heaven, And they were all amazed.. Its the CONTEXT of the passage in question that give the meaning. So "ALL" does NOT mean "ALL" all the time....
@rbmath Yes, in Mat2:16 it is limited to all the boys in Bethlehem. The text clarifies it is all of a particular group.
In 1Tim2:4 is does no such thing.
In Hebrews 2:9 it says "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE."
NIV, EVERYONE
NASB, EVERYONE
KJV, EVERYMAN
NKJV, EVERYMAN
ESV, EVERYONE
Pretty clear isn't it. It doesn't say some, it says everyone!
@shteve77 Hebrews 2:9... WHO is the author writing too.? To Christians... so once again it comes to your view NON-BIBLICAL view of Jesus being the perfect savior. YOUR NON-BIBLICAL view. "jesus is perfectly WILLING but his ACTIONS ARE NOT PERFECT"
@rbmath Who else is the author going to write his letter to. "To the non elect".
Just because He is writing to Christians does that mean whenever He writes "all men" or "everyone" it's only talking about Christian? No!
He says "Hebrews 2:9 (NIV84)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
@shteve77 you ignore the context of 1Ti 2:1-4... I clearly showed the word "ALL" in scriptures does NOT ALWAYS MEAN ALL. Your view leads to BIG contradictions in the bible. your view. Jesus is the perfect savior ONLY IN WANTING to save people NOT IN HIS DIVINE ACTIONS OF ACTUALLY SAVING PEOPLE.
@rbmath Oh the context clealry does mean ALL MEN. It doesn't say ALL KINDS as it could have.
Where does it say in scripture that is Jesus wants to save someone but they refuse to believe then He is not the perfect Saviour? You definition of a "perfect saviour" is not Biblical and is purely man made.
Your view. Jesus CANNOT perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father Joh 6:37-40, example. god the father gives jesus 100 of his children to save and says to jesus, I want you to lose NOTHING. jesus sets out to save them having a perfect WILL to save all 100 but saves 25 of them and loses 75 of. exactly HOW is that obeying the will of God "that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me"
@shteve77 PART 2... I'm trying to understand how much you really think of Jesus. if you think that Jesus is the PERFECT savior or not since this will go along way to answering your own question....
Dr. Norman Geisler Can Jesus LOSE? Was Jesus correct in John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
but He also says in vs 40: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” So you see, all who look to Jesus are the ones the Father gives to Him... That's the system.
Do you love one who perpetuates suffering, murder, rape and mayhem? Does this sound like a loving being? Does allowing such things, and creating beings that can ONLY do such things bring glory to God? The Bible teaches MAN chooses his own sin (and he DOES). But if the greatest sin is the rejection of God, and God built a man so as that this can be his ONLY response to Jesus, then how can God punish man for this or for the sins he was BUILT unable to escape?
@philipatoz Look at Acts 2:23. Did men make real sinful decisions to crucify Jesus? Yes. Did God predestine them to sinfully crucify Jesus? Yes. God predestined that they would sin.
@elderaps, Yes, God handed over Jesus to sinful men. Yes, He foreknew crucifixion is how the Jews, their leaders and Romans would carry out the evil, hatred, and rebellion towards God, ALREADY within their hearts TO BEGIN WITH - IF He gave them the circumstances and ability to do so. Did God CAUSE their evil? NO! Did God CAUSE this hideous, unthinkable SIN? NO! Did those responsible HAVE to do this? NO! But God knew before time, with HIS manipulation, THEIR sin would do the rest, as He desired.
@philipatoz Hey man, good to hear from you again. I've been on Evolution sites arguing Creation Theory
Please allow me to do some free-association thinking here. I know I have not yet really studied it out, but this is what is on my mind. You always hear hippies and liberals saying things about "free love." Freedom and love are these nebulous terms to them and they justify whatever they want with those terms. Kill a baby; it's freedom. Commit adultery; it's love
@philipatoz I was just telling them about polystrate fossils, and it's just amazing to see their level of denial. So, I just kept trying to show them, and they just kept arguing back.
@RomansGalatians, it's never a bad thing to make unbelievers aware that life on earth, the existence of the universe, necessitates there was, and is, a Creator. As for me, of course, I believe that IF one wants to know the truth, God will provide it, and if they will respond positively to the truth He gives them, He will provide even more (and up until knowing they need to repent), but if they refuse to respond to the truth, and for some that's merely the general revelation, He will do no more!
@philipatoz Exaltation of the FORCE of LOVE and FREEDOM is prevalent in the world. Respected humanist thinkers like Oprah and Dr. Phil perpetuate it, and it even influences otherwise strong Christian thinkers like Dr. Geisler.
Humanist "love" and "freedom" are exalted above GOD!
God no longer is the King of our hearts. No, now He is subject to that same FORCE and must operate within it. He cannot "turn our heart of stone to flesh" nor "turn the heart of fathers towards their children"
@philipatoz The problem is this: We are trying to reason with our own logic by comparing a God relationship with what we know about human relationships.
Bad idea.
No human on earth loves unconditionally. So, if we used human relations, rather than Word revealed truth, we would never arrive at knowing a true unconditional love from our Heavenly Father. We would think that He is just like us. His ways are like our ways, we think.
@philipatoz Well, His ways aren't like our ways. And many truths about human relationships are not true when applied to God. In fact, many truths about human relationships if applied to God would be blasphemous.
For example: You should never worship another person. But it would be blasphemous to refuse to worship God, to whom all prais is due.
TRUTHS ABOUT HORIZONTAL RELATIONSHIPS FAIL TO COMPARE TO OUR VERTICAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. For that, we need revelation, not comparing and logic
@philipatoz What I hear you saying is this: There is a force called LOVE. (I would say at this point that it imperative to distinguish between God Love and human love, but I am afraid that distinction is lost on many Christians today).
Under the definition of LOVE, FREE WILL is required, according to the mantra. (Can you see already that it is circular reasoning to try to prove "free will" by appealing to a definition of "love" that has "free will" as a necessary requisite?).
@philipatoz Wait, did you just say in your last response "Does ALLOWING such things . . ."? Is it your contention that God CANNOT prevent such things?
The Bible says that God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. He makes us love, just like He made us in the first place.
But you think that God CANNOT make us love Him, because He is powerless without man's consenting will. Your god must comply with the FORCE of ALMIGHTY LOVE.
@RomansGalatians, long time no arguments!? To clarify my comment below, yes, God obviously ALLOWS sin to happen, even very serious ones, which I think we agree he will severely punish the unrepentant of. And yes, God can and does use sins and unbelievers as tools. But what I meant was God may manipulate, but does not CAUSE, sin, as the sinful INTENT was already there. And it's not that I believe God CAN'T make us love Him, it's that He WON'T force us to love or obey Him.
@RomansGalatians In short, "Love" is not a force to which God must comply. He is the MAKER of Love (Hippie humanists think that man "makes love" with sex).
He turns our hearts. He is the ONLY one who can change our hearts. He is the King of our hearts, the King of Love. Love does not lord it over God.
OK, I'll let you reply before I write a whole book.
OK, Calvinists, let me get this straight. God is sovereign, but somehow His sovereignty is limited to only what Five Point theology will allow? So God is sovereign, but His sovereignty prevents Him from doing something, mainly, offering man the GIFT of salvation. HUH? Whut's dat you sey? God's sovereignty has limits? Oh, really? If God wants to offer man ANYTHING, then what is that to ANYONE???!!!
@philipatoz Why would God offer salvation to people the scripture says will never want or accept?I can offer my dog lettuce to eat all day,but I know that it's not his nature to want or eat it.To make my dog want to eat lettuce would require some super natural power that I don't have.God tells us that every thought is evil all the time, that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God..NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM..." (1Cor.2:14).So how as a natural man can you receive salvation?
@CBALLEN, you didn't answer my question: Why can God not be sovereign and also give man a choice to accept or reject salvation? For discussion's sake, let's leave out the question of whether or not this is what He has done, but IF He had so decided to offer us salvation, COULD HE HAVE DONE SO?
@philipatoz If God just let people choose Him after all the other things that He has said about man and his nature,not one single individual would see Heaven,we would all go to Hell just like we wanted.
@philipatoz Romans 11:8 says GOD gave the Jews a spirit of stupor,eyes that can't see and ears that can't hear.This was concerning who Jesus was.If God is not effecting our" free will"then why did God effect the Jews in this way?Why didn't He just leave them alone and see if they would choose Jesus or not on their own?Was this unfair of God?
@philipatoz Everyone is born wanting and headed for Hell,everybody! Is it wrong of God to change the will of some and give them Heaven? Look at it like this,there are 10 billion wrecked cars,all the same make model and yr.,they are all totaled out and are headed for the crusher,God takes 3 billion out and restores them better than NEW,what harm has been done here?
@philipatoz God is not turning people away who want salvation,everyone who calls on His name gets saved,that's what He says,right?Of course God is certainly not giving everyone justice or He'd have to let everyone go to Hell for justice to be done,He is just exercising His free will in saving some from His wrath and I praise God for it.
@CBALLEN, let's unpack the implications of your last sentence: "He is just exercising His free will in saving some from His wrath and I praise God for it." Can you also praise God for what your statement also implies? That we should also praise God for damning MOST to horrific suffering, evil, torture, mayhem, rape, and murder - all of which impacts ALL of humanity now, and their eternal agony later (ALL because they had NO choice), especially as He supposedly damned them BEFORE their births.
@philipatoz Look Phil,I didn't write the Bible nor can I do one thing about the way God does things,nor can you,so if you have a problem with the God of the Bible,that's between you and Him.If you can't love God for who He is,then you have a big problem.
@CBALLEN, do YOU have a problem with horrible, unimaginable suffering, rape, murder and mayhem? If YOU had a solution that would solve this, would YOU provide it? Would YOU show the world love and mercy, in addition to justice, or would YOU just let billions suffer in agony now, and plunge towards horrific eternal punishment later?Do YOU think these evil things are in ANY way good for ANYONE? In my Bible God says these things are ALL horrible - so are YOU saying God DESIRES them?
@philipatoz Arminians look at salvation merely as a "HUMAN DECISION",when it's actually a supernatural miracle of God! God says we can't choose Jesus but Arminians say,yes we can.The shephard chooses his sheep,not the other way around.
Certainly, the word "world" in 1John 2:2 is used in a DIFFERENT context than in verse 15!
How right you are that v. 15 could not possibly mean "Christian world" But, if "world" in the context of v. 15 is imposed on v. 2, then v. 15 is commanding us to NOT LOVE other people for whom Christ was crucified!
You sneak. You say, "we must read in the broader context" as a ruse to take v 2 and pull it into the context of v 15. Taking out of context is the very thing that you are doing.
The pond analogy was terrible.God finds us dead,floating in the pond and has to send His SON to make us alive knowing He will die in the process.Geisler is a trained Jesuit agent,whose bringing PROTESTANTS BACK TO ROME WITH HIS TEACHINGS.
@CBALLEN, YOU well know Geisler has called out Catholicism on its false, heretical teachings. He's written two books specifically challenging these. Have you read either? Obviously NOT! And I can guarantee that YOU have at least some beliefs that Catholics do - but does that make YOU a Catholic or Roman sympathizer? Geisler's earliest training was well over 50 years ago, only the first of his understandings of the Bible. And even most Calvinist theologians respect him on other topics!
@philipatoz The reformation, that we Protestants came out of, was because of the very thing that you now side with the Catholics about.They too believed that man either chose or did not choose God and God had to sit back wringing HIS HANDS hoping man would make the right choice.The reformers brought back the knowledge of GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY and Grace and that God was the only one with FREE WILL! Of course man wouldn't put up with sound doctrine for long,so lets go back to ROME PROTESTANTS!
@CBALLEN, You know quite well that the many millions of truly saved Christians who disagree with Five Point theology also, without a doubt, believe in God's sovereignty. The question is NOT is God sovereign - He most definitely is - the real question is what has God done within His sovereignty. If, as I say, God has chosen to offer a freely given, totally unmerited offer of salvation to man, and with very specific eternal consequences for rejection - then what is that TO YOU?
@philipatoz The truth is all that matters,there can only be 1 truth about a single issue,not many truths.Man is unable to come to Jesus unless the Father draws him or DRAGS him, the better translation,this means with a force to overcome all resistance.So once one is brought to Jesus with a force that breaks down all resistance,man is helpless to fight against it and God changes them into one who loves Jesus instead of hating Him.If you are saved God did the same thing to you, believe it or not.
@philipato..The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God..NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM..." (1Cor.2:14).You say,"Yes he can,anyone can understand the things of God,that's why he can choose Jesus if he wants to." The Bible says WE MUST FIRST BE BORN AGAIN to understand the things of God.You say,"No we don't,we as natural men come to Jesus after being invited and then we make ourselves BORN AGAIN after we make our choice as natural men to be Christians.IMPOSSIBLE.
@CBALLEN Romans 9-29 As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
None of these people were saved before God did this,with the exception of just a few,the only ones Nation that GOD CHOSE for salvation in the O.T. were Jews,but now we Gentiles can also know the Lord and have salvation,this is what is meant in the N.T.by ALL MEN or WHOLE WORLD when speaking of salvation,not every person head for head.
@philipatoz Ez.11:19 20And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
The New Birth that God gives us causes us to believe and repent.Just like Paul,who was on his way to arrest Christians,was stopped cold in his tracks,he was told by Jesus who HE was and then told to go preach His word. Paul's NEW BIRTH , repentance and belief ,all happened within the time frame between being blinded and Jesus telling him to go preach His word,because Jesus doesn't send lost people out to preach His word.Jesus made him born again,gave him God's word and Paul believed.
Just like with eph 2:8-10 Paul here rights in the next verse about works, so just like with eph you should read from Romans4:3to8 to get the proper context and see that just like in eph Paul was trying to say grace is a gift received by faith not received based of merit or works but it come from god as a free Gift. That if You believe(like David mosses and everyone else) belief=faith, and confess with your tongue you will be saved.
The scripture will reveal the needed information. The other major standout is....You guessed it Gen 15:6. Abraham. As Paul puts it, his faith in God was accredited to him as righteousness Romans 4:3. O Wait whats this another important distinction,
The only people who cannot chose God are those Who have a reprobate mind(and Paul in Romans 2:28 says that He gave them over to that life,HE LET THEM CHOSE) and the only ones we see in abundance are those who are pre flood. which is why god destroyed the world. but what did he find amongst the reprobate like in Sodom? someone righteous enough to be saved. Someone to respond to his goodness. He found two Noah and Lot(plus family) I will not explain further at the presant as a through reading of_
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.." (Heb.12:2). Again, if Arminians claim that fallen man can have faith on his own, and is expected to do so, they wrestle against the clear teachings of Scripture. And this is the fundamental dividing line: can man have faith by his own CHOICE? or does God bestow upon His elect, the GIFT of faith.
Remember, this is not about "receiving" the gift. The gift is REPENTANCE (a change of heart/mind). There is NO "receiving" of that gift.
i explained in my previous post how you took Ephesians out of context, and how you didn't continue to read the letter, if you had you would have no problems with my statement. because Paul words qualify what I'm saying, because its what he said. Again when he says not of your doing hes breaking the Ephesians of their works mind state.
I appreciate your reverence for god's words, but we have a choice, and if you take that choice away you take away love, and if you take away love you kill God. God is love before we existed he was its his nature. You must understand what you believe, and its consequences.
No one is saying that man doesn't make choices on a daily basis. What Scripture is telling us (and what Calvinists support), is that SALVIFIC FAITH is NOT something man can "make a choice to do/have". Fallen man is incapable of making a decision for God. Christ found US; we didn't find Him. Every believer is a walking miracle of God. Why? Because God regenerates the dead sinner to spiritual life. God drew the sinner to His Son (Jn.6:44). Yours is a man-centered Gospel; mine=theo-centric.
Wow I know we disagree and we probably both think that we are never going to get through to the other! please understand in my attempt to get my point across I don't wanna sound arrogant but I'm afraid i have I'm not intending to, so for that I apologize. I believe to illustrate my point further we will have to go back to the begging, to the old testament in fact. Before we can both agree that the terms in the new testament are tricky, but not defined as Calvin defined them.
I hate to continue to reiterate this point but you have to understand the implications of your account of the word love. Love cannot exists without a choice can it? Tell me when in life it can? Please. If you are blessed enough to be married you know this. If you went up to your perspective wife and said "I'm giving you the means to love me now do it", is that love? NO by NO means love is a choice without it their is no love. I understand im asking you to change your very cemented view of God.
But its the only way. If you can deny the language you use, the terms we have gone over, and the fundamental principles of love, trust, and faith I can do no further to bring you to right understanding. I can only of my own accord tell you I love you, and so does God, You ever hear of the term "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink"? Shockingly simple but its the exact point trying to be made.
Gods Gift that He gives us, its the opportunity to have faith in someone that results in salvation through faith. we are lucky to have it. See faith is nothing if the faith we have is not founded. Faith is not the Gift being referred to, its the Savior. Faith is the way, the choice, he leads the horse to water and says "I'm the living water now drink". Its up to us do do that.
truth before us, you and I. Please look past the indoctrination and see that a loving god cannot fake love because then his very nature collapses on its self and you have killed truth in your heart with a lie.
Blessings, and may you acknowledge the truth before you!
-create faith, faith cannot be implanted but earned from one to another. so we see clearly that god leads us to faith and repentance through his good and loving nature, he doesn't force us, he doesn't choose for us if he did then it wouldn't be faith. This is truth. (I mean what I'm about to say with the up most respect) If you deny these words, the definitions, the scripture, the inspired word of God and the apostle Paul, then I cannot but watch you deny clear evidence conclusively pointing
The clear evidence is that God not only expects His people to have Faith and Repentance, but that it is He and He alone who actually bestows these gifts upon His elect. God not only decrees the effect of faith and repentance, which is salvation, but He gives us the tools for the "cause" of salvation, namely, faith and repentance (Eph.2:8-10; Acts11:18; 2Tim.2:25).
And God does not give these gifts to every single human being.
First Scripture NKJ because it translates the most close from the original greek. (Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance Rom 2:4). Notice the word paul uses, "leadeth" huh? keep that in mind. now lets look at the very definition of the word faith. "confidence or trust in a person or thing" Confidence trust these are not things that can be implanted but earned, that is why they, together-
"..This is to be understood not of a spiritual and evangelical repentance, which is a free grace gift, and which none but the Spirit of God can lead, or bring persons to; but of a natural and legal repentance, which lies in an external sorrow for sin, and in an outward cessation from it, and reformation of life and manners..."
[John Gill's Exposition of the New Testament, Rom.2:4]
*Notice that Romans 2 is talking about the universal sinfulness of man's deeds before God.
This is a response to you r Ephesians reference you sent me. You have done a fantastic job of ignoring context and obviously not reading the verses above or below the verse you gave me,Eph 2:8. Verse 8; And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of god,(9) NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST. Grace and salvation are unmerited gifts from god for sure but faith is in and of its self an independent reaction/belief in response to an act, in the case grace and salvation from our
@Novus-- you say I, "have done a fantastic job of ignoring context.."? Eph.2:8-10 clearly tells us that not only are Grace and Salvation gifts from God, but so is Faith. "But God...when we were DEAD IN SINS, HATH QUICKENED US..." (v.4-5). Notice that this is something God does, not man.
I have pointed out that the word "that" in v.8 is a "wrap up" term that includes everything that came before it as a gift: Grace, Salvation, AND FAITH!
"philipatoz is claiming that repentance and faith are something man must do by his own free will." I absolutely without doubt know and confess that repentance and faith our both things that must come from us, if not they aren't authentic, and it isn't repentance or faith. Do i believe the loving nature of Christ leads us to repent? Absolutely! Truth exsists we all know that and truth helps us to construct laws to understand so we may solve problems. lets look at some truth
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves: IT is the gift of God." (Eph.2:8).
Question: What is the "that" referring to? Grace, Salvation, or Faith?
Answer: "that" is the neuter gender in the Greek. And both Grace and Faith are feminine. The term "that" is used as a "wrap up" term to include everything that came before it: Grace, Salvation, and Faith. These are gifts from God alone.
i say thank God we can disagree on this! the important thing is that we do believe in the Lord, regardless of if we think it was our choice or not. nobody here wether calvanist or arminian thinks that they will make it to heaven on their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. the rest of this stuff will be settled in heaven! God bless you all!
I love this beautiful teaching .Praise God !
TheHumbuckerboy 2 months ago
John 3:16 continued: Ephesians 2 gives commentary on these verses because we find that salvation is by the grace of God through faith. Thus faith is by the grace of God. So we can only have faith by grace. So we choose or not to have faith but we can only have make the chocie of faith b/c of the grace of God.
MrBlackhaw 2 months ago
Geisler- God has to love all.
God's word:
Malachi 1 2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Bible: Romans 9:3"as it is written Jacob I loved and EsauI hated."
MrBlackhaw 3 months ago
@MrBlackhaw - Sir, the Bible is the best commentary on the Bible. Read Luke 14:26. Is Jesus really telling us to hate our Father and Mother or saying to love them less? Gen. 25:23 - You have two NATIONS in your womb. So, the Calvinist understanding of Romans 9 is false and therefore the whole of their (your) logic is built on a false premise.
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 Okay what does Luke 14:26 mean? Romans 9 and Malachi surely are not talking hating in the way we think about it. Ok. But it is not saying that God has to love all either. And it is about God choosing Jacob over Esau. So God does not love everyone in the way we think of love either. And BTW the verses in Malachi and Romans do not address nations. they adress people. Although there are national consequences.
MrBlackhaw 2 months ago
@MrBlackhaw - Actually, the Bible does say God loves everyone: John 3:16. It's just a pity Calvinists deny its meaning as well as so many other passages. When Paul quotes Gen., he is most definitely quoting in its context: nations.
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 Why do you not address what I spoke about in my last post? What does Luke 14:26 mean? What does the passage I quoted from Romans and Malachi mean?
MrBlackhaw 2 months ago
@MrBlackhaw - why so argumentative? Romans 9 in the context of Luke 14:26 means that God didn't hate Esau, but loved him less than Jacob. So what does John 3:16 mean?
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 Not argumenative. Just do not want you to dodge questions. So God loved Jacob less? So he loves some less than others? He loves you more than someone who lives in a worse situation. How much less? How is this less love demonstrated in real life? Maybe he did not die for those he loved less. Confusing answer. Brings up more questions than answers.
MrBlackhaw 2 months ago
@MrBlackhaw - No sir. You are making it confusing. Jesus said the Gospel is easy for a little child to understand. Jesus loves all-died for all. Those that believe will be saved. Those that believe not will not be in the Kingdom.
msb0000 2 months ago
@msb0000 John 3:16 means God demonstrated His love for the world that he he sent His Son to die for the world and that whoever chooses to believe in him has a chance at eternal life. If you read the next verses it is clear that some will not have faith and will be damned.
MrBlackhaw 2 months ago
M. Luthers "WRATH THEORY" of the Atonement came out of the 1500's... If Jesus took the WRATH of everyone who ever lived, then unbelievers should NOT take the WRATH a 2nd time, otherwise u have "Double Jeopardy".
Yet it says He is a Ransom for ALL (1 Tim.2:6), he is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (1 Jn.2:2), that one act of righteousness leads to justification & life for ALL MEN (Rom.5:18)...
So the Atonement has to be properly defined or "ALL" & "WORLD" have to be redefined.
apollos6640 6 months ago
1 John 2:2 is a generic term referring to mankind, not all individuals on earth. If Christ paid the price for the sins of those who won't believe, why will they then pay the penalty for their own sins? Doesn't really make sense to pay for the same thing twice, does it? I love how this guy continues to speak of the Calvinist viewing things through their preconceived doctrinal glasses. He obviously isn't doing that at all.
metanoeo1 7 months ago
@metanoeo1 Oh for crying out loud... 1 John 2:2 is a generic term???? How far are you calvinists willing to go to make out all words that mean 'all' and 'world', 'not all' and 'elect'?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Hi, I'm basic Greek grammar, have we met? Didn't think so.
Yes, this is a generic term. If Christ died for the sins of everyone one earth, why then do people go to hell? How can you logically believe that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of those who would go to hell, but the then go to hell and again pay the penalty for their sins? Talk about forcing your beliefs into the Scriptures. See John 10:11, 15; 17:9, 20; Acts 20:28; Rom. 8:32, 37; Eph. 5:25.
metanoeo1 6 months ago
@metanoeo1 I don't believe people go to hell. As you are so learned in biblical exegesis, please explain to me the meaning of the word 'gehenna'. I have a hunch I'm in for a whopper of a fire-and-brimstone interpretation.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@metanoeo1 By the way, if people do go to hell, that makes your theology even more disgusting, as your god has then specifically created people to be damned for eternity and suffer forever. I can just feel the 'Good' part of the 'Good News' in calvinism...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@metanoeo1 Furthermore, the letters of Paul make mention of the word 'world' 69 times in 61 verses. It refers to several meanings, but NEVER to the word 'elect'. The same is the case with 1 John 2:2. In no way, shape or form could you possibly read the word 'world' here as 'the elect', NOR as 'the non-Jews/Gentiles'.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@shteve77 John 20:30-31 explains the Entire Purpose for the Gospel of John.
The ONLY consistent logical rebuttal a Calvinist can give is this:
"Man is Totally Depraved and CANNOT Believe the writings of John, it should read; 'but these are written that God may regenerate His ELECT into Believing in Jesus & that By Believing, His ELECT WILL have life in His name"
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 Yes, sometime I think that Calvinists should just do what the JW's have done and re-do their own translation. That way they can just remove all the pesky verses that declare that Christ died for all men, loves all men and wants all men to believe.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 , rkg62976 Declares that Jesus drank the "Cup of Gods WRATH", he is blindly following the teachings of his Reformed fathers, I've heard Paul Washer say the same... but they're WRONG.
Jesus said to James & John the sons of Zebedee, "You WILL DRINK MY CUP.."
What is Jesus saying? That James & John will taste Gods WRATH as well? No. "The Cup" is the Persecution from men, NOT "Gods WRATH"
apollos6640 7 months ago
@shteve77 there are DOZENS of scriptural examples.
Paul quotes God from the Old Testament regarding the Jews REFUSING to "obey the gospel", "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient & obstinant people"
Why is God holding out his hands to obstinant Jews to REPENT, whom Jesus DIDNT DIE for?
Calvinism is in opposition to the Work of God on the Cross.
Calvinism glorifies SATAN by crediting God for the Sins of the World.
Calvinism is unbiblical.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@rbmath... "Please provide ANY scripture in proper context that shows God's grace in awakening a dead sinner comes SECOND..."
The Prodigal son DIED then he himself returned to the Father when he "came to himself" Luke 15:17-18 "But when he came to himself, he said, '...I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you." Then the father said celebrated declaring that the son "was DEAD & is ALIVE AGAIN".
You should stop following men.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 I was just about to post that verse! Great example!! Good to hear from you too.
shteve77 7 months ago
Dr. Giesler story of the farmer and the 3 drowning boys is a funny one at the end of this video. He says that God is able to save them but Man is able to resist the will of GOD!
Did this "Dr" forget to read the Book of Jonah? Jonah "Resisted" the Will of God until he was swallowed by a Fish, then after he accepted the Will of God. This Dr. Geisler needs to understand that When God wants a man to do something, he forces him to do it and...."HIS WILL BE DONE!"
Judgement220 8 months ago
If Christ didn't die for the unsaved then there is no reason for them to go to Hell!
Joyce4Christ 10 months ago
God does love everyone, but He has a special, unique love for the elect. He loves them in a way where He guarantees forgiveness and salvation to them. That redemptive love does not apply to the reprobate/goats who are destined for hell.
I'm saved not because I chose God or loved God, but I am saved because you chose me and loved me.
MJOLNIRVII 11 months ago
1Jn.2:2-- Dr. Geisler should be focusing on the meaning of the word "propitiation", as the word "world" is used in many different ways in Scripture.
Propitiation: Gk. ἱλάσμος, ilasmos); means: an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party.
In other words, Jesus took upon Himself the wrath of God in the place of His people. So, in Geisler's theology, God has no more wrath upon the wicked, because Christ took everyone's judgment..this leads to UNIVERSAL SALVATION!
Simple enough?
rkg62976 11 months ago
Some reject the idea that Christ took upon Himself God's wrath, this is an error!
Jesus prays to the Father: "remove this CUP from me" (Lk.22:42; Mt.26:42; Mk.14:36).
What does the "cup" symbolize?
Ps.11:6, 75:8; Is.51:17,22; Jer.25:15, 49:12; Rev.14:10, 16:19, 18:6...all speak of "the cup" of God's wrath.
If Jesus drank of the "cup" of God's wrath for every human being, then there is no wrath left for the wicked...this leads to the error of UNIVERSAL SALVATION!
Simple enough?
rkg62976 11 months ago
RE: pond...Dr. Norman Geisler FALSE illustration of what Calvinism is... WHY does he continue to use this false illustration when he has been corrected more than once. He is once again misrepresenting what Calvinism is.
rbmath 1 year ago
@rbmath you're right. He misrepresents what Calvinism says. It doesn't say that the farmer would just not save the drowning boys, but that the farmer would make sure there was no other option but that they swim in his pond, then the farmer would cause them to fall in, cause them to drown, not just refuse to hand them a preserver. Then, the farmer would take pleasure and glory in their drowning. You're right. Dr. Geisler should have better represented Calvinism.
sketchbook1 7 months ago
@sketchbook1 ... So you believe "dead people" can swim?
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Can "dead people" sin? Your problem is you confuse spiritually dead people with physically dead. A dead person can't do anything including sin. Those that are dead in their sins are like men on death row. They are allready condemned. The death sentance has been passed. The second death at the great white throne in Rev20 awaits and there is nothing they can do to escape. That doesn't mean that they can't simply believe the message of the gospel, that Christ is Lord, died and was raised.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 ..NO... Pointing out that the story Geisler uses, and your's are both fatally flawed...The people are not "drowning" they are DEAD. The men on "death row" are already dead as well, the death sentence was already carried out. Your problem is that you dishonestly represent what Calvinism really is...Please provide ANY scripture in proper context that shows God's grace in awakening a dead sinner comes SECOND.. FIRST they repent. THAN God applies his grace. Which is works salvation...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You didn't answer. Can 'dead people' sin?
They're LIKE drowning men. They're not in hell (2nd death) yet.... but it's only a matter of time.
God's Spirit convicts men, but doesn't force them to believe. People "resist the Holy Spirit"Ac7:51 & "grieve the Holy Spirit".
"these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING you may have life in his name. "Jn20:31
We are dead in sin until we believe. We only receive life WHEN we believe.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 Its sad to see that you disagree with the divinely inspired scriptures.. You do answer understand the point I was making but you chose to ignore it.. scripture does NOT say, "men are DROWNING IN SIN" it say they are DEAD IN SIN. They cannot do ANYTHING SPIRITUALLY to save themselves. Ac7:51 was already answered.. If you believe people are dead in sin. THAN WHY DO YOU USE THE FALSE REASONING USED BY Geisler "DROWNING MEN"... You are inconsistent in your views...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You still didn't answer. Can a dead man sin?????
You are trying to apply the characteristics of a physically dead person to a spiritually dead one.
Rev20:14"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
Are people alive on Earth right now who are not believers in the lake of fire? Of course not. But they will be, it's just a matter of time. It is you who are inconsistent in your views..
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:Jn20:31.. So know you believe that people can believe WITHOUT the work of God in their life. Tell me please, WHICH comes FIRST... HUMAN BELIEVE or God's enabling grace? You know those scriptures that teach that its GOD who grants repentance...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELEIVING you may have life in his name."Jn20:31
Read this very carefully. It is BY believing someone has life. This means that before someone believes they are DEAD. You believe God regenerated someone and makes them born again BEFORE they have believed. There is not such thing as a born again, regenerated unbeliever. Belief comes first then God gives life.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77... I already know of very inconsistent your views are... You believe that people can repent WITHOUT GOD FIRST WORKING in their lives...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I have allready told you that it is God who works in mens hearts, by convicting them of their sins by the Holy Spirit. This grace is NOT Irresistible.
You wrongly believe that a person is born again and regenerated BEFORE they believe. John 20:31 proves you wrong. Please explain what you think this verse is actually saying????
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: John 20:31.... NO....I dismiss your eisegesis as very inconsistent...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath OK. So explain what this verse is saying
"John 20:30–31
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELIEVING you may HAVE LIFE in his name."
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 already been over this with you. You will only get the same answers I already gave.....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Another NON answer. You really have no idea how to answer it do you?
You say men are born again, have new life and are regenerated before they believe.
The Bible say the opposite, but instead of believing what the Bible says you have decided to ignore it and you will believe your own man made doctrine instead. You won't even attempt to try and address this verse either!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 I know you believe in "works salvation" I know you can "proudly" say that you defied the clear scriptures as 1Co 2:14, Eph 2:8-10. You say it WAS ME BEFORE God's saving grace awoke me from spiritual death. You say it WAS ME BEFORE God's saving grace awoke me from spiritual death that submitted myself to God's laws even though scriptures teach its impossible. WE WENT THOUGH THIS ALREADY...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Show me anywhere I have said anything of the sort?
No one would ever believe if not for the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God makes the first move towards men, not the other way around. Men are free to respond to or reject God's offer of salvation.
You are just running away because you have been asked about verses you can't reconcile with Calvinism.
Isa5:3-4, Jn20:31. Why don't you tell me what they are saying?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77. if you believe that God makes the first move.. Than it comes naturally that man cannot repent on his own 2Ti 2:25. Now why do you believe that Jesus can FAIL to perfectly obey God the Father's will for him in John 6:37-40.. I LOSE NOTHING. along with Heb 7:25..able to save to the uttermost..he always lives to make intercession for them... You do believe that Jesus is PERFECT savior? Or how about what John said in his Divinely Inspired letter 1Jn 2:19. And I DID answer you...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If God makes the first move towards men it does not follow that He Irresistibly saves men. Yes Jesus is perfect, I have never said He is not. Scripture declares God "wants all men to be saved"2Tim2:4. We see in Matt23:37 that Jesus LONGED for the people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they didn't. God makes the first move. He loves all men, He wants all men to be saved but He does not make them believe. He ALLOWS them to go against His will and refuse His gift of salvation.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: If God makes the first move towards men it does not follow that He Irresistibly saves men)) So you're saying that when John who was Divinely Inspired to write 1Jn 2:19 he was WRONG.. Your view of Jesus perfection is not biblical. your basically saying. "Jesus is perfect in WANTING all men to be save BUT HE CANNOT save ALL the men He perfectly wants to save, His WANTING to save is perfect BUT HIS ACTIONS ARE NOT PERFECT" does NOT match with the context of Joh 6:37-40...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath What has 1Jn2:19 got to do with Irresistible Grace?
Jesus wants all men to be saved (as scripture declares), but Jesus does not want to force men to receive salvation.
shteve77 7 months ago
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@shteve77 RE:Jesus wants... I already understand you UNbiblical view of Jesus. RE:What has 1Jn2:19 got to do with Irresistible Grace?.... it clearly shows that those who you say can resist grace were NEVER CHRISTIANS in the first place...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Of course those resist God never become Christians. How does that support Irresistible Grace?
shteve77 7 months ago
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@shteve77 RE: Of course those resist God never become Christians. How does that support Irresistible Grace?.... So we come down to bottom issue once again, that is YOU think Jesus is the "perfect" savior ONLY IN WANTING others to be saved. When I think and scriptures teaches that Jesus is the PERFECT savior in WANTING AND HIS ACTIONS OF SAVING HIS SHEEP from the foundation of the world...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You still haven't explained what 1Jn2:19 has supposedly got do to with Irresistible Grace?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:"2Tim2:4. We see in Matt 23:37...I'm sure you already heard the answers to these scriptures... RE: He ALLOWS them to go against His will and refuse His gift of salvation..... So you DENY what God said. Isa 46:10...'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' ... Your very inconsistent in your views...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Again, you simply ignore the verses you don't like. Mat23:37 which ever way you try and spin it shows that people that Christ LONGED to have them come to Him did not come.
So either, Christ wanted them to come but would not force them, or Christ lied and said He wanted them to come, but by His actions showed that He didn't.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: Mat23:37... We see in Matt23:37 that Jesus LONGED for the people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they didn't... You MISQUOTED the passage..."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! OH LOOK GOD DID GATHER THE CHILDREN SEE Act 2:41. Act 4:4 Act 13:48..as many as were APPOINTED to eternal life believed.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I misquoted which part? "Mat23:37(NIV)"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
So Jesus was lamenting saying (HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED BUT...) meaning that now as in the past He wanted them to come to Him but THEY WERE NOT WILLING. I guess Jesus forgot they did really come and all would come! RUBBISH!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: (HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED BUT...) WOW you still MISQUOTE Mat23:37 NIV, NASB, HCSB, ASV, KJV, NKJV, LEB, ESV (How often would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN together). Of course the "NATURAL MAN" will NOT come to God, scriptures DO teach this.1Co 2:14, Rom 8:7. They also teach WHAT God HIMSELF does 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4, Act_13:48.. they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath How could I possibly have MISQUOTED the verse when I copied and pasted it from the NIV online bible in it's entirety?
This is another verse you are simply ignoring. Jesus weeps over Jerusalem. He says "how often I have longed". That means as He is speaking and many times in the paste He has longed for the "children" of Jerusalem to come to him, but they "were not willing".
This shows that people that Jesus wanted to save were not saved. Irresistible Grace is a LIE!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 ITS . "how often I have longed TO GATHER YOUR CHILDREN TOGETHER,... The rest I already answered...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You just keep quoting TO GATHER YOUR CHILDREN TOGETHER as though that actually answers something. Jesus says He has often (in the past and now) LONGED to gather the children to Jerusalem, but He laments because He wants them to come to Him but they are not willing!
shteve77 7 months ago
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@shteve77 once again this WAS ANSWERED.. AGAIN what to expect of men who are dead in sin, hostile to God, cannot submit to God's law, have a deceitful heart, all the thoughts of his heart is evil, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin, cannot set himself free. AND THE CHILDREN WERE GATHERED AS I ALREADY POINTED OUT.. OLD TESTAMENT 1Ki_19:18, Rom_11:4, NEW TESTAMENT Act_4:4, Act_2:41.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath So Jesus was lamenting over the fact that He had OFTEN LONGED to gather the children, but they were not willing.....but He just forgot that they were really gathered? Why on earth was Jesus lamenting saying "how often I have longed to gather your children together..."?
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath And as I pointed out from John 20:31. It is BY BELIEVING that we have life. Until the point we believe we are dead in our sins. WHEN we believe, God makes us born again and adopts us as children into His family.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: WHEN we believe, God makes us born again and adopts us as children into His family.... MEANING.. GOD HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIRST TO AWAKEN US TO BELIEVE... So Once again I'm right to say that you're VERY inconstant in your views. when you did say that its the work of the Holy Spirit...
rbmath 7 months ago
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@rbmath I think you are determined to try and change what I am saying. Listen very carefully. God makes the first move. No one would repent and turn to God with out the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so obviously for you to say I think quote "GOD HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FIRST TO AWAKEN US TO BELIEVE" is NONSENSE!
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath As I have allready showed in Jn20:31. Men are dead until they believe. It is only when they believe that they recieve life. The Calvinist believe men are given life, born again and regenerated BEFORE they believe. Scripture says you are wrong.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:Jn20:31. Men are dead until they believe. It is only when they believe that they recieve life .. So you're saying that these verses that are divinely Inspired are WRONG 1Co 2:14. Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, IT CANNOT... Your saying that spiritually dead/ hostile towards God/ CANNOT submit to God's law. CAN SUBMIT TO God's LAW TO REPENTANCE... your view is eisegesis...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If I am reading John20:31 wrong please correct me and explain where I am in error. SIlly me, I guess when it said "AND THAT BY BELEIVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE" it must mean something other than, a person is dead until they believe and that when they believe they recieve life! Fell free to explain what this verse is actually saying then?
The story of the prodigal also shows a man described as DEAD who is says "when he came to his senses He said 'I will set out and go back to my father'"
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: prodigal. Why do you bring up issues that were gone over before. Do you really think that I have changed my mind? You already admitted that its the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin or do you think that this one prodigal son (which is a story since no evidence exists that says that is a REAL TRUE LIFE STORY) is the lone exception. That the Holy Spirit had 100% NOTHING to do with this son's conversion. THIS IS what your saying, which is works salvation.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Why do you think Jesus told this story? I see a pattern with your explanation of the Bible. If a verse contradicts Calvinism we just ignore it. It's just a song, or it's just a story. All doesn't really mean "all". World really means some!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 Where did I IGNORE IT...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I have brought up the story of the prodigal son several times. Your response was to say it's a story.
True, it's a story Jesus told and surely Jesus had a reason and wants us to learn from the story. Jesus carefully tells the story about a DEAD man who "came to His senses" and "went back to His Father".
If I am interpreting this story wrongly then please explain what Jesus did mean by this story and what we can learn from it?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: prodigal son... ALREADY ANSWERED... I answered more than saying this.."it's a story".. You continue to be dishonest in what I answer. you need to deal with this BYE...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You are being dishonest. You're "answer" to the prodigal son (words that Jesus spoke Himself) is that "it's a story". So tell me what was Jesus trying to teach us in this story?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 as a teaching tool. its YOUR understanding that contradicts the bible. So when the Pharisees said in Joh_12:19. the world has gone after him. It MUST mean the ancient Chinese were then entire Roman empire and other ancient people who at that time NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST.. or does the CONTEXT give the proper meaning?
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Oh, context is certainly important, and you are guilty of taking this verse out of context to try and support your unbiblical view that Christ only died for some men and so limit the use of the word World in other passages.
Jn12:19"So the Pharisees said to one another, 'See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!' "
Is the Bible saying the whole world went after Him? No! Scripture records what these evil men said to one another...cont...
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath ...It is an accurate Historical record of their conversation. There Words are not inspired, they are recorded in scripture, and clearly the Pharisees were exagerating! It is your understanding that contradicts what the Bible says!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 .RE:.It is an accurate Historical record of their conversation ... WOW... So you would rather believe that an error is in the bible than to admit to being being. So your really saying, "The gospel author LIED about what was said" I only pointed out the CONTEXT is important when trying to understand the ALL THE DIVINELY INSPIRED WORD OF GOD...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Where did I say there is an error in the Bible? Listen very carefully. The Bible records the fact that the Pharisees said to one another "see the whole world has gone after Him".
God is not saying that the whole world has gone after Him, God recorded in scripture the Words of the Pharisees and they exagerated.
Scripture records Peter at the trial say "He denied it again, with an oath: "I don’t know the man!""
Does that mean He didn't know Christ? No! He lied and scripture recorded it.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 the CONTEXT in Mat_2:16 clarifies the word "all" and LIMITES IT MEANING..We have "all kinds, all in the house, all these things, all the city, all that district, For they all had her, All authority in heaven, And they were all amazed.. Its the CONTEXT of the passage in question that give the meaning. So "ALL" does NOT mean "ALL" all the time....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Yes, in Mat2:16 it is limited to all the boys in Bethlehem. The text clarifies it is all of a particular group.
In 1Tim2:4 is does no such thing.
In Hebrews 2:9 it says "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE."
NIV, EVERYONE
NASB, EVERYONE
KJV, EVERYMAN
NKJV, EVERYMAN
ESV, EVERYONE
Pretty clear isn't it. It doesn't say some, it says everyone!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 Hebrews 2:9... WHO is the author writing too.? To Christians... so once again it comes to your view NON-BIBLICAL view of Jesus being the perfect savior. YOUR NON-BIBLICAL view. "jesus is perfectly WILLING but his ACTIONS ARE NOT PERFECT"
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Who else is the author going to write his letter to. "To the non elect".
Just because He is writing to Christians does that mean whenever He writes "all men" or "everyone" it's only talking about Christian? No!
He says "Hebrews 2:9 (NIV84)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath "we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. "1Tim4:10
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 So in 1Ti 2:1-4. Paul makes clear what he says...and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions..
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath More than 40 times in scripture the phrase "all kinds" or "all types" is used.
If Paul wanted to say Christ wants "all kinds" of men to be saved He could have just said so.
Here He says God "WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED"
God gives a very stern warning about adding to His Word. God did not say "ALL KINDS".
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 you ignore the context of 1Ti 2:1-4... I clearly showed the word "ALL" in scriptures does NOT ALWAYS MEAN ALL. Your view leads to BIG contradictions in the bible. your view. Jesus is the perfect savior ONLY IN WANTING to save people NOT IN HIS DIVINE ACTIONS OF ACTUALLY SAVING PEOPLE.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Oh the context clealry does mean ALL MEN. It doesn't say ALL KINDS as it could have.
Where does it say in scripture that is Jesus wants to save someone but they refuse to believe then He is not the perfect Saviour? You definition of a "perfect saviour" is not Biblical and is purely man made.
shteve77 7 months ago
Your view. Jesus CANNOT perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father Joh 6:37-40, example. god the father gives jesus 100 of his children to save and says to jesus, I want you to lose NOTHING. jesus sets out to save them having a perfect WILL to save all 100 but saves 25 of them and loses 75 of. exactly HOW is that obeying the will of God "that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me"
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 PART 2... I'm trying to understand how much you really think of Jesus. if you think that Jesus is the PERFECT savior or not since this will go along way to answering your own question....
rbmath 7 months ago
Tell me WHO was John writing to. The WORLD or Christians??.. Tell me Please. do LOVE other women in the very same way you LOVE your wife?
rbmath 1 year ago
Dr. Norman Geisler Can Jesus LOSE? Was Jesus correct in John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
rbmath 1 year ago
but He also says in vs 40: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” So you see, all who look to Jesus are the ones the Father gives to Him... That's the system.
sketchbook1 7 months ago
Do you love one who perpetuates suffering, murder, rape and mayhem? Does this sound like a loving being? Does allowing such things, and creating beings that can ONLY do such things bring glory to God? The Bible teaches MAN chooses his own sin (and he DOES). But if the greatest sin is the rejection of God, and God built a man so as that this can be his ONLY response to Jesus, then how can God punish man for this or for the sins he was BUILT unable to escape?
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Look at Acts 2:23. Did men make real sinful decisions to crucify Jesus? Yes. Did God predestine them to sinfully crucify Jesus? Yes. God predestined that they would sin.
elderaps 1 year ago
@elderaps, Yes, God handed over Jesus to sinful men. Yes, He foreknew crucifixion is how the Jews, their leaders and Romans would carry out the evil, hatred, and rebellion towards God, ALREADY within their hearts TO BEGIN WITH - IF He gave them the circumstances and ability to do so. Did God CAUSE their evil? NO! Did God CAUSE this hideous, unthinkable SIN? NO! Did those responsible HAVE to do this? NO! But God knew before time, with HIS manipulation, THEIR sin would do the rest, as He desired.
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Hey man, good to hear from you again. I've been on Evolution sites arguing Creation Theory
Please allow me to do some free-association thinking here. I know I have not yet really studied it out, but this is what is on my mind. You always hear hippies and liberals saying things about "free love." Freedom and love are these nebulous terms to them and they justify whatever they want with those terms. Kill a baby; it's freedom. Commit adultery; it's love
Freedom and love are god.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, before I go any further on this "love" issue, just curious - are you a YOUNG earth creationist (I have no desire to debate that).
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Yes, I'm a Young Earth creationist.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
I see.
philipatoz 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians lol
madmaxxp1 1 year ago
@philipatoz Do you believe in Evolution Theory?
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, NO, I do not.
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz OK, maybe I jumped to conclusions a little. I've been arguing with athiests too much lately.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, also I am an OLD Earth, progressive creationist. Just curious, why are you ARGUING with atheists?
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz I was just telling them about polystrate fossils, and it's just amazing to see their level of denial. So, I just kept trying to show them, and they just kept arguing back.
I guess it was just for fun.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, it's never a bad thing to make unbelievers aware that life on earth, the existence of the universe, necessitates there was, and is, a Creator. As for me, of course, I believe that IF one wants to know the truth, God will provide it, and if they will respond positively to the truth He gives them, He will provide even more (and up until knowing they need to repent), but if they refuse to respond to the truth, and for some that's merely the general revelation, He will do no more!
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz It certainly would go along with your other Humanist tendancies.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, I am an inerrancy believing, saved by faith Christian - if you equate that with humanism, something is seriously wrong!
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Exaltation of the FORCE of LOVE and FREEDOM is prevalent in the world. Respected humanist thinkers like Oprah and Dr. Phil perpetuate it, and it even influences otherwise strong Christian thinkers like Dr. Geisler.
Humanist "love" and "freedom" are exalted above GOD!
God no longer is the King of our hearts. No, now He is subject to that same FORCE and must operate within it. He cannot "turn our heart of stone to flesh" nor "turn the heart of fathers towards their children"
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@philipatoz The problem is this: We are trying to reason with our own logic by comparing a God relationship with what we know about human relationships.
Bad idea.
No human on earth loves unconditionally. So, if we used human relations, rather than Word revealed truth, we would never arrive at knowing a true unconditional love from our Heavenly Father. We would think that He is just like us. His ways are like our ways, we think.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@philipatoz Well, His ways aren't like our ways. And many truths about human relationships are not true when applied to God. In fact, many truths about human relationships if applied to God would be blasphemous.
For example: You should never worship another person. But it would be blasphemous to refuse to worship God, to whom all prais is due.
TRUTHS ABOUT HORIZONTAL RELATIONSHIPS FAIL TO COMPARE TO OUR VERTICAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. For that, we need revelation, not comparing and logic
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@philipatoz Yes, yes, yes, it would be horrible for one person to change the heart and thus the will of another person to love him.
But when we are talking about the CREATOR of our hearts, those rules are not applicable. The God relationship is NOT COMPARABLE.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@philipatoz What I hear you saying is this: There is a force called LOVE. (I would say at this point that it imperative to distinguish between God Love and human love, but I am afraid that distinction is lost on many Christians today).
Under the definition of LOVE, FREE WILL is required, according to the mantra. (Can you see already that it is circular reasoning to try to prove "free will" by appealing to a definition of "love" that has "free will" as a necessary requisite?).
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@philipatoz Wait, did you just say in your last response "Does ALLOWING such things . . ."? Is it your contention that God CANNOT prevent such things?
The Bible says that God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. He makes us love, just like He made us in the first place.
But you think that God CANNOT make us love Him, because He is powerless without man's consenting will. Your god must comply with the FORCE of ALMIGHTY LOVE.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians, long time no arguments!? To clarify my comment below, yes, God obviously ALLOWS sin to happen, even very serious ones, which I think we agree he will severely punish the unrepentant of. And yes, God can and does use sins and unbelievers as tools. But what I meant was God may manipulate, but does not CAUSE, sin, as the sinful INTENT was already there. And it's not that I believe God CAN'T make us love Him, it's that He WON'T force us to love or obey Him.
philipatoz 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians In short, "Love" is not a force to which God must comply. He is the MAKER of Love (Hippie humanists think that man "makes love" with sex).
He turns our hearts. He is the ONLY one who can change our hearts. He is the King of our hearts, the King of Love. Love does not lord it over God.
OK, I'll let you reply before I write a whole book.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
OK, Calvinists, let me get this straight. God is sovereign, but somehow His sovereignty is limited to only what Five Point theology will allow? So God is sovereign, but His sovereignty prevents Him from doing something, mainly, offering man the GIFT of salvation. HUH? Whut's dat you sey? God's sovereignty has limits? Oh, really? If God wants to offer man ANYTHING, then what is that to ANYONE???!!!
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Why would God offer salvation to people the scripture says will never want or accept?I can offer my dog lettuce to eat all day,but I know that it's not his nature to want or eat it.To make my dog want to eat lettuce would require some super natural power that I don't have.God tells us that every thought is evil all the time, that the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God..NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM..." (1Cor.2:14).So how as a natural man can you receive salvation?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN, you didn't answer my question: Why can God not be sovereign and also give man a choice to accept or reject salvation? For discussion's sake, let's leave out the question of whether or not this is what He has done, but IF He had so decided to offer us salvation, COULD HE HAVE DONE SO?
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz God could do or could have done anything that He wanted to do within His nature,that's just not how He said He did it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipatoz If God just let people choose Him after all the other things that He has said about man and his nature,not one single individual would see Heaven,we would all go to Hell just like we wanted.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipatoz Romans 11:8 says GOD gave the Jews a spirit of stupor,eyes that can't see and ears that can't hear.This was concerning who Jesus was.If God is not effecting our" free will"then why did God effect the Jews in this way?Why didn't He just leave them alone and see if they would choose Jesus or not on their own?Was this unfair of God?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipatoz Everyone is born wanting and headed for Hell,everybody! Is it wrong of God to change the will of some and give them Heaven? Look at it like this,there are 10 billion wrecked cars,all the same make model and yr.,they are all totaled out and are headed for the crusher,God takes 3 billion out and restores them better than NEW,what harm has been done here?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipatoz God is not turning people away who want salvation,everyone who calls on His name gets saved,that's what He says,right?Of course God is certainly not giving everyone justice or He'd have to let everyone go to Hell for justice to be done,He is just exercising His free will in saving some from His wrath and I praise God for it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN, let's unpack the implications of your last sentence: "He is just exercising His free will in saving some from His wrath and I praise God for it." Can you also praise God for what your statement also implies? That we should also praise God for damning MOST to horrific suffering, evil, torture, mayhem, rape, and murder - all of which impacts ALL of humanity now, and their eternal agony later (ALL because they had NO choice), especially as He supposedly damned them BEFORE their births.
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Look Phil,I didn't write the Bible nor can I do one thing about the way God does things,nor can you,so if you have a problem with the God of the Bible,that's between you and Him.If you can't love God for who He is,then you have a big problem.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN, do YOU have a problem with horrible, unimaginable suffering, rape, murder and mayhem? If YOU had a solution that would solve this, would YOU provide it? Would YOU show the world love and mercy, in addition to justice, or would YOU just let billions suffer in agony now, and plunge towards horrific eternal punishment later?Do YOU think these evil things are in ANY way good for ANYONE? In my Bible God says these things are ALL horrible - so are YOU saying God DESIRES them?
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz Arminians look at salvation merely as a "HUMAN DECISION",when it's actually a supernatural miracle of God! God says we can't choose Jesus but Arminians say,yes we can.The shephard chooses his sheep,not the other way around.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Certainly, the word "world" in 1John 2:2 is used in a DIFFERENT context than in verse 15!
How right you are that v. 15 could not possibly mean "Christian world" But, if "world" in the context of v. 15 is imposed on v. 2, then v. 15 is commanding us to NOT LOVE other people for whom Christ was crucified!
You sneak. You say, "we must read in the broader context" as a ruse to take v 2 and pull it into the context of v 15. Taking out of context is the very thing that you are doing.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
The pond analogy was terrible.God finds us dead,floating in the pond and has to send His SON to make us alive knowing He will die in the process.Geisler is a trained Jesuit agent,whose bringing PROTESTANTS BACK TO ROME WITH HIS TEACHINGS.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN, YOU well know Geisler has called out Catholicism on its false, heretical teachings. He's written two books specifically challenging these. Have you read either? Obviously NOT! And I can guarantee that YOU have at least some beliefs that Catholics do - but does that make YOU a Catholic or Roman sympathizer? Geisler's earliest training was well over 50 years ago, only the first of his understandings of the Bible. And even most Calvinist theologians respect him on other topics!
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz The reformation, that we Protestants came out of, was because of the very thing that you now side with the Catholics about.They too believed that man either chose or did not choose God and God had to sit back wringing HIS HANDS hoping man would make the right choice.The reformers brought back the knowledge of GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY and Grace and that God was the only one with FREE WILL! Of course man wouldn't put up with sound doctrine for long,so lets go back to ROME PROTESTANTS!
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN, You know quite well that the many millions of truly saved Christians who disagree with Five Point theology also, without a doubt, believe in God's sovereignty. The question is NOT is God sovereign - He most definitely is - the real question is what has God done within His sovereignty. If, as I say, God has chosen to offer a freely given, totally unmerited offer of salvation to man, and with very specific eternal consequences for rejection - then what is that TO YOU?
philipatoz 1 year ago
@philipatoz The truth is all that matters,there can only be 1 truth about a single issue,not many truths.Man is unable to come to Jesus unless the Father draws him or DRAGS him, the better translation,this means with a force to overcome all resistance.So once one is brought to Jesus with a force that breaks down all resistance,man is helpless to fight against it and God changes them into one who loves Jesus instead of hating Him.If you are saved God did the same thing to you, believe it or not.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipato..The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God..NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM..." (1Cor.2:14).You say,"Yes he can,anyone can understand the things of God,that's why he can choose Jesus if he wants to." The Bible says WE MUST FIRST BE BORN AGAIN to understand the things of God.You say,"No we don't,we as natural men come to Jesus after being invited and then we make ourselves BORN AGAIN after we make our choice as natural men to be Christians.IMPOSSIBLE.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Romans 9-29 As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
None of these people were saved before God did this,with the exception of just a few,the only ones Nation that GOD CHOSE for salvation in the O.T. were Jews,but now we Gentiles can also know the Lord and have salvation,this is what is meant in the N.T.by ALL MEN or WHOLE WORLD when speaking of salvation,not every person head for head.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@philipatoz Ez.11:19 20And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
I don't see man making any choice here,do you?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
The New Birth that God gives us causes us to believe and repent.Just like Paul,who was on his way to arrest Christians,was stopped cold in his tracks,he was told by Jesus who HE was and then told to go preach His word. Paul's NEW BIRTH , repentance and belief ,all happened within the time frame between being blinded and Jesus telling him to go preach His word,because Jesus doesn't send lost people out to preach His word.Jesus made him born again,gave him God's word and Paul believed.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
Just like with eph 2:8-10 Paul here rights in the next verse about works, so just like with eph you should read from Romans4:3to8 to get the proper context and see that just like in eph Paul was trying to say grace is a gift received by faith not received based of merit or works but it come from god as a free Gift. That if You believe(like David mosses and everyone else) belief=faith, and confess with your tongue you will be saved.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
The scripture will reveal the needed information. The other major standout is....You guessed it Gen 15:6. Abraham. As Paul puts it, his faith in God was accredited to him as righteousness Romans 4:3. O Wait whats this another important distinction,
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
The only people who cannot chose God are those Who have a reprobate mind(and Paul in Romans 2:28 says that He gave them over to that life,HE LET THEM CHOSE) and the only ones we see in abundance are those who are pre flood. which is why god destroyed the world. but what did he find amongst the reprobate like in Sodom? someone righteous enough to be saved. Someone to respond to his goodness. He found two Noah and Lot(plus family) I will not explain further at the presant as a through reading of_
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
Dr. White's and Dr. Grudem's PhD are worthy of notice unlike yours "Dr." Geisler!!!!!
denn034 1 year ago
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.." (Heb.12:2). Again, if Arminians claim that fallen man can have faith on his own, and is expected to do so, they wrestle against the clear teachings of Scripture. And this is the fundamental dividing line: can man have faith by his own CHOICE? or does God bestow upon His elect, the GIFT of faith.
Remember, this is not about "receiving" the gift. The gift is REPENTANCE (a change of heart/mind). There is NO "receiving" of that gift.
rkg62976 1 year ago
i explained in my previous post how you took Ephesians out of context, and how you didn't continue to read the letter, if you had you would have no problems with my statement. because Paul words qualify what I'm saying, because its what he said. Again when he says not of your doing hes breaking the Ephesians of their works mind state.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
I appreciate your reverence for god's words, but we have a choice, and if you take that choice away you take away love, and if you take away love you kill God. God is love before we existed he was its his nature. You must understand what you believe, and its consequences.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
No one is saying that man doesn't make choices on a daily basis. What Scripture is telling us (and what Calvinists support), is that SALVIFIC FAITH is NOT something man can "make a choice to do/have". Fallen man is incapable of making a decision for God. Christ found US; we didn't find Him. Every believer is a walking miracle of God. Why? Because God regenerates the dead sinner to spiritual life. God drew the sinner to His Son (Jn.6:44). Yours is a man-centered Gospel; mine=theo-centric.
rkg62976 1 year ago
Wow I know we disagree and we probably both think that we are never going to get through to the other! please understand in my attempt to get my point across I don't wanna sound arrogant but I'm afraid i have I'm not intending to, so for that I apologize. I believe to illustrate my point further we will have to go back to the begging, to the old testament in fact. Before we can both agree that the terms in the new testament are tricky, but not defined as Calvin defined them.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
I hate to continue to reiterate this point but you have to understand the implications of your account of the word love. Love cannot exists without a choice can it? Tell me when in life it can? Please. If you are blessed enough to be married you know this. If you went up to your perspective wife and said "I'm giving you the means to love me now do it", is that love? NO by NO means love is a choice without it their is no love. I understand im asking you to change your very cemented view of God.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
But its the only way. If you can deny the language you use, the terms we have gone over, and the fundamental principles of love, trust, and faith I can do no further to bring you to right understanding. I can only of my own accord tell you I love you, and so does God, You ever hear of the term "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink"? Shockingly simple but its the exact point trying to be made.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
Gods Gift that He gives us, its the opportunity to have faith in someone that results in salvation through faith. we are lucky to have it. See faith is nothing if the faith we have is not founded. Faith is not the Gift being referred to, its the Savior. Faith is the way, the choice, he leads the horse to water and says "I'm the living water now drink". Its up to us do do that.
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
truth before us, you and I. Please look past the indoctrination and see that a loving god cannot fake love because then his very nature collapses on its self and you have killed truth in your heart with a lie.
Blessings, and may you acknowledge the truth before you!
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
-create faith, faith cannot be implanted but earned from one to another. so we see clearly that god leads us to faith and repentance through his good and loving nature, he doesn't force us, he doesn't choose for us if he did then it wouldn't be faith. This is truth. (I mean what I'm about to say with the up most respect) If you deny these words, the definitions, the scripture, the inspired word of God and the apostle Paul, then I cannot but watch you deny clear evidence conclusively pointing
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
The clear evidence is that God not only expects His people to have Faith and Repentance, but that it is He and He alone who actually bestows these gifts upon His elect. God not only decrees the effect of faith and repentance, which is salvation, but He gives us the tools for the "cause" of salvation, namely, faith and repentance (Eph.2:8-10; Acts11:18; 2Tim.2:25).
And God does not give these gifts to every single human being.
rkg62976 1 year ago
First Scripture NKJ because it translates the most close from the original greek. (Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance Rom 2:4). Notice the word paul uses, "leadeth" huh? keep that in mind. now lets look at the very definition of the word faith. "confidence or trust in a person or thing" Confidence trust these are not things that can be implanted but earned, that is why they, together-
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
"..This is to be understood not of a spiritual and evangelical repentance, which is a free grace gift, and which none but the Spirit of God can lead, or bring persons to; but of a natural and legal repentance, which lies in an external sorrow for sin, and in an outward cessation from it, and reformation of life and manners..."
[John Gill's Exposition of the New Testament, Rom.2:4]
*Notice that Romans 2 is talking about the universal sinfulness of man's deeds before God.
rkg62976 1 year ago
This is a response to you r Ephesians reference you sent me. You have done a fantastic job of ignoring context and obviously not reading the verses above or below the verse you gave me,Eph 2:8. Verse 8; And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of god,(9) NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST. Grace and salvation are unmerited gifts from god for sure but faith is in and of its self an independent reaction/belief in response to an act, in the case grace and salvation from our
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
@Novus-- you say I, "have done a fantastic job of ignoring context.."? Eph.2:8-10 clearly tells us that not only are Grace and Salvation gifts from God, but so is Faith. "But God...when we were DEAD IN SINS, HATH QUICKENED US..." (v.4-5). Notice that this is something God does, not man.
I have pointed out that the word "that" in v.8 is a "wrap up" term that includes everything that came before it as a gift: Grace, Salvation, AND FAITH!
You say, "but faith is...self dependent"-WRONG!
rkg62976 1 year ago
Quoting rkg62976
"philipatoz is claiming that repentance and faith are something man must do by his own free will." I absolutely without doubt know and confess that repentance and faith our both things that must come from us, if not they aren't authentic, and it isn't repentance or faith. Do i believe the loving nature of Christ leads us to repent? Absolutely! Truth exsists we all know that and truth helps us to construct laws to understand so we may solve problems. lets look at some truth
NovusCreatio 1 year ago
Grace, Salvation, and Faith are a gift from God.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and THAT not of yourselves: IT is the gift of God." (Eph.2:8).
Question: What is the "that" referring to? Grace, Salvation, or Faith?
Answer: "that" is the neuter gender in the Greek. And both Grace and Faith are feminine. The term "that" is used as a "wrap up" term to include everything that came before it: Grace, Salvation, and Faith. These are gifts from God alone.
rkg62976 1 year ago
i say thank God we can disagree on this! the important thing is that we do believe in the Lord, regardless of if we think it was our choice or not. nobody here wether calvanist or arminian thinks that they will make it to heaven on their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. the rest of this stuff will be settled in heaven! God bless you all!
philliphitt 1 year ago