Violence Begets Violence: Violent Elements in the ALF

[fetus2genius1]

Put my burner in the air so the pacifists know

[MrSnitchkilla187]

Why is everybody crying about "violence". The ONLY thing wrong with ELF is they DONT use enough violence. These abusers of life on our planet deserve to burn with their buildings! Fuck anyone who doesn't support the heroic actions of the ALF/ELF!

[TheVeganerd]

active members in the A.L.F. aren't announcing themselves in online forums because the work they do is punishable under the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, which labels any action causing over $10,000 losses or damage to an animal enterprise is terrorism, whether or not anyone has been injured. Oh, by Black Hebrew movement do you mean the African Hebrew Israelite community?

[TheVeganerd]

To considering spiders and rodents who might be harmed in an arson....let's say a million dollar ski lodge, play the tape forward if the lodge is built. Spiders and rodents would be killed in perpetuity for the lifespan of the lodge. With a fire the mammals have much better chance to escape instead of dying from poisoning or in traps later.

[kimberlily1983]

Hmm, I don't think you're being fair to the ALF's ideology. It's perfectly consistent to believe in human rights and non-violence, but to think that in some circumstances violence is necessary: namely, when violence is being done to people, it's perfectly legitimate to use violence against the perpetrators in order to stop that violence from happening. If it's okay to do it for people, but not okay to do it for animals, doesn't that say something about how seriously we take animal rights?

[kimberlily1983]

@kimberlily1983 If I were to say "It's okay to harm the rapist who's molesting a child, in order to get him to stop, but not okay to harm this other person who's sadistically torturing animals.", wouldn't I reveal myself to be valuing humans more than animals?

[kimberlily1983]

@kimberlily1983 If humans and animals have equal claims, equal rights, etc. then the only consistent positions I can take are these: (1) violence is never justified to remove someone else from harm, human or non-human, & (2) violence is justified to remove someone, whether non-human or human, from harm. It's one or the other, people.

[kimberlily1983]

@kimberlily1983 (Just to correct myself, I implied the ALF supports violence, when they do not. They support other illegal means - property destruction, etc. The ARM, etc. support violence.)

[NiceGuyCody]

@kimberlily1983

""doesn't that say something about how seriously we take animal rights?"

No, it just demonstrates that you're crazed sociopaths who think nothing of using violence and terrorism to push an extremist and nonsensical life philosophy on other people.

[NotSoOldHippy]

The ALF and the ELF do not employ violence. Never have. Never will. What do you think the ALF has ever done that was violent?

[dawagget]

@NotSoOldHippy so burning down buildings stalking and harassing people and threatening their children isint violent. you need to wake up saladbrain, before your extreme stupidity gets you killed. im surprised how people who are so profoundly brainwashed and delusional manage to survive its amazing

[TheChoujinVirus]

@gqpadillac

and you are a sick individual. This is why many Vegans are actually against this ideology of Animal Rights. This is the kind of rhetoric that is why you have the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, why the Government sends agents and snitches into the movement, and why Operation Backfire exposed the true ideology of the ALF

These kinds of groups are Anti-Human.

Real people, like Theodore Roosevelt, Jacque Cousteau, and many others never had to resort to violence to care for animals

[Grew2Strong]

PlanetDestroyers Should NOT be Allowed to Live in Peace For 1 Second!!!

DEATH TO ALL PLANET DESTROYERS!!!

Yor a fukhead... U can still eat animals so long as u Kill them with Respect..... but tipical Modern Civilized EgoHeads like U insist everyone be like U! that is an egoDriven act.

tribal people Respected Diversity, walked with respect n still ate animals.

n im a Fukn vegan u dickHead.

Plus... Modern Civilized egoHeads are obsessed with over breeding.. n need to be culled!!!

[untilallarefree]

Seriously though, even if it took an hour for them to be raped or killed, would you just stand there, and plead?

Most people would realise that they are not a pacificist in that situation (if they were previously, not that most people are), as the reality is pacifism is a great method to gain supporters and public attention, and therefore further the movement, but does little to save lives there and then.

I refere you back to the first question.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I did answer, I said I would feel compelled to act. I become suddenly brave when placed in situations where others are in danger and often instinctively step in to do something. I haven't had to use violence yet however, usually words are enough. But this is different, isn't it.

One-off acts of violence are different to those that are systemic and completely accepted by society. Most people would applaud me for stopping the guy beating the dog, and definately for stopping the rape...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...but stopping ground breaking cancer treatments (as they see it, with all the sentimentality attached) by threatening to burn down a scientists home or whatever they would find reprehensible. It doesn't do anything to change public opinion or the law either, any changes will be negative. You can have great big huge wins in your area of the world, labs closing, breeders of animals for testing going out of business etc...but the industry still rolls on. We have to think about how systemic...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...violence in other areas of our society has been stopped, how rights were won for vulnerable people such as women, children and people with disabilities, and perhaps the abolition of slavery too.

I just think that if we don't focus on public opinion and act violently (most of it is treatened violence mind you, not real) we will just be driving the vivisectors overseas to third world nations where the surrounding public couldn't give a crap. We need to get people caring about where their...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...drugs, food, clothing etc comes from so they will act with their consciences, this would consititute a massive blow to these industries. Then, when a significant number of people understand where we are coming from, we can make life impossible for businesses that exploit and kill animals :-)

I really do think we need to be in for the long haul on this issue, I don't imagine it will be over in my lifetime :(

[untilallarefree]

Sorry, i was just playing a game :p

Wanted to see anything you said would be different to what I would of written some months back when I was a pacifist...

Turns out not much difference, because you failed to answer the question! (Like I always did)

If somebody was being raped, or beaten in front of you, who you were close to, would you try and intervene using the minimal amount of force necessary to save their life or allow them to die bearing witness because you are a pacafist?

[untilallarefree]

*plead with the owner -- what i meant

[untilallarefree]

If men are allowd to fight back for women who mabybe too vulnerable to, then the same logic must apply to animals, unless there is a matter of new-speciesist thinking going on.

Would you physically stop somebody abusing a dog if you saw it happen or would you continue to lead with the abuser until the individual has died?

Protect the Innocent.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I totally totally understand where you are coming from...so much :-( The problem is that we need to make this a mainstream movement in order to really help the animals long term and if people think we are the crazy people in balaclavas who are acting in a violent manner that doesn't help the cause. People see us, they don't generally see the horror of vivisection so they see liberation actions as the greater evil, unfortunately :-( This is a hard one but we need public support which you don't...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...get if people see you as a criminal. Most ALF actions are peaceful liberations with some economic sabotage, I am 100% for that and could not give a shit what anyone thinks of me for that. The lives of sentient beings are ALWAYS more important then things or money, anyone who believes otherwise has a screw loose. I have unfortuntaley heard about ALF members threatening the lives of children of lab workers, that is not civil behaviour and wont win any public approval ever. It can actually...

[TheVeganicWitch]

...turn people off who would otherwise be interested in learning about animal liberation and a cruelty free lifestyle. Get the animals out by all means but physical violence or threats of violence will damage the cause long term and doesn't match up with the central message. Although I totally understand and if in a room watching a vivisector at work I would feel the same way most would feel seeing those things done to a baby e.g. I would be compelled to act :-(

*'Us' refers to all AR activists

[untilallarefree]

Good stuff about the peter singer stuff. Although regarding violence; activists believe it is wrong to use any form of violence against innocent individuals. However animal abusers are guilty, and for example Jews in the Nazi Resistance torched gas chambers to save themselves, even resulted in killing Nazis to save their own lives. Violence is merely extensional self-defense in many regards, whether its from rape, racism, homophobia, speciesism, etc, etc.

[ecstatica23]

great video

[DivaMakeup]

Hypocrites. I think you're exactly right. It makes no sense to expect humans to stop acts of violence against animals and at the same time committing acts of violence toward humans in the name of that cause. It's ludicrous.

[TheVeganicWitch]

I think veganism has to include compassion and non-violence to ALL animals, including humans.

[winterwinwin]

An ALF member should definitely be vegan. Otherwise, it's hypocritical.

Now, I'm all for active liberation. I'm not for all the extra defacing of property that some of the hardcore do. I would honestly be part of the ALF if I could without the stupid legal ramifications in America now. I would totally break into labs and free them... but I wouldn't be violent, etc.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Me too Winter, I'm just too jumpy for liberation missions, and too clumsy. I would knock something over and make a big noise and the jig would be up! LOL

[DigigirlAshley]

I feel that same about what you are saying, Violence certainly achieves nothing.

I think we as a species, need to learn that killing each-other, the animals, and the environment around us, is not a good direction to be going in...

and how can anyone who isn't vegan, be an ALF activist? that's just total Hypocrisy.

[montgonova]

fighting with the same weopons they use you won't get anywhere... that in everything

love you JESS! your so wise!

[porolita22]

AWESOME STATEMENT! I love this video, this is how I feel 100% the same about this issue.

Oh and...

ALF activists who are not Vegan = Hypocrites!

:-/

[hererightnow6]

I think vegans are focusing on evolution and not revolution, which is a good thing. If they really were dragging everyone kicking and screaming they would be petitioning the government to ban meat and holding protests outside shops, as an example. Rather they are just putting the information out there and educating people. The information isn't in peoples faces either. *Part 1*

[hererightnow6]

*Part 2* Most of the time you will really only come across vegan and animal rights info if you are specifically looking for it. Then if you don't like what you see its your own responsibility to emotionally deal with that.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Excellent comment!!!!! Thanks for your input :-)

[sapperbloggs]

Great video, I really enjoyed it.

Violence is very much against what veganism stands for. Your approach is a lot better than the violent approach. That said, I'm still an 'omnivore'. I wish your movement all the best, but I don't think you're going to make great headway going completely against the grain. Maybe if you work in small steps towards your ideal solution, you'll get there faster than just dragging everyone there kicking and screaming

[TheVeganicWitch]

How are we dragging anyone??? I really do not understand at all where this impression comes from? I am an abolitionist, I live abolition and I encourage others to do the same by removing as much cruelty from their lifestyles as possible. If they aren't interested they can just press the 'X' at the top right hand side of the page and turn me off! LOL XD

Watch my next vid and perhaps you may understand slightly better where I am coming from regarding tactics, strategies etc :-)

[sapperbloggs]

I think that was more referring to seperate videos you did on the topic, where you referred to non-vegans as 'ignorant', as well as your 'anti-veganism' is pro animal cruelty video. Both are pretty harsh on people who don't follow your lead. And apologies, those comments really should stay on those videos.

[TheVeganicWitch]

It is ignorance that makes people I meet on here and in real life claim that you need to consume animal products to be healthy, or just even to remain ALIVE. And that is the main counter argument I recieve. Dispariging veganism and encouraging people NOT to consider a vegan diet and instead remain as omnivores is pro cruelty in my opinion. I don't mean that your average person is pro animal cruelty. Your average diet is pretty heavy on cruelty and for people who know that to advocate...

[TheVeganicWitch]

(cont) for it I think is pretty reprehensible.

[sapperbloggs]

I think those making an opposing claim could be called ignorant, and rightly so. And to be honest, many of those who aren't making a claim at all, but have an opposing view to yours may be ignorant, but calling them that (true as it may be) really is counterproductive, and by not making the distinction, omnivores may seem comments aimed at those promoting meat-eating as being aimed at them as well.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Ignorance is a constant state for humans, there are a lot of things I am ignorant of. The only truely offensive ignorance is when people are intentionally ignorant of something and then make accusations at people based on that lack of knowledge. Ignorance is not even an insult in my opinion, all it really means is a state of not knowing. It is also something people can change very easily. Re people misinterpreting: I'm sorry if people cannot understand what I say, I really am :(

[sapperbloggs]

You've got a very good point. As an atheist, I deal with people who are ignorant to reality quite a lot. I don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a god... but I know the bible isn't literally true, that's not hard to prove... I know evolution happened, that's pretty easy to prove... but some people just don't want to see.

I think I mistook your meaning of 'ignorance' as an attack on meat eaters, rather than the statement of fact it was intended as. My bad.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Case in point of the stuff I am talking about are some new comments on my 'Ignorance is NOT cool video'. This woman has come on and is basically stating that vegans who raise their children vegan are child abusers based on ONE case in America where a 'vegan' couple starved their tiny baby to death by feeding him only tiny amounts of soy milk and apple juice. Then she claimed that vegans couldn't breastfeed because human milk is an animal product!!! That is the kinda shit I am talking about.

[sapperbloggs]

We looked at that exact case at uni, discussing the morality of belief. The people who starved their kid thought they were doing the right thing, though it had the worst result. The result of the discussion was that belief can be immoral, if it has no basis in reality and/or it causes harm.

But by using this one example as the basis for all vegans is crazy. Your veganism is based on fact. Her claim about vegans is less accurate and just as dumb as saying everyone of german descent is a Nazi

[TheVeganicWitch]

When I was at uni I met a girl who was doing a social work degree. She was doing some work experience in a very underpriveleged area and came across a young mother who was feeding her baby a diet that consisted entirely of cows milk. This girl had no idea what she was doing could harm her baby. If, hypothetically, HER child had died of starvation would we have read a headline of "death by omnivorism"? NO WAY. The press on this issue is entirely politically motivated.

[sapperbloggs]

I disagree a bit with that. I think that mother's harm would be based on what she believed. If catholocism led her to feed her baby only cow's milk, then catholocism would be blamed. If it was a particular belief (rather than just not knowing) then that belief would come under scrutiny. Just like the couple in Sydney, Scientologists, who refused medication for their severely scizophrenic daughter, who had an 'episode' and killed them both. The belief put into play what led to the event

[sapperbloggs]

^^^ that's not to say that veganism is wrong, just that it's the belief (and I believe they were religious too) that caused the events, so it's the belief that's scrutinised for the result^^^

[TheVeganicWitch]

Yeah, I read some of the weird stuff they said in court...the whole thing is pretty freaky, one wonders what planet they were on. But the thing that is always overlooked is that everyone has an ideology, not just people who stand out as different. Veganism is no more of an ideology then meat eating is, the things we consider a normal part of our culture become invisible. BUT as you said, that would not be picked up by the press.

[TheVeganicWitch]

Ok, the above comment is just my musings and entirely out of context LOL I must be tired XD

[sapperbloggs]

Everyone has an ideology, but when that ideology causes obvious harm, it is scrutinised. If that ideology isn't as common as others, it's scrutinised even more. If the ideology is solid, it will withstand the scrutiny. While these people were vegan, and they killed their child, I'm sure you can give mounds of evidence pointing out the benefits of veganism (if it's done right), and point out that many people are raised vegan, and they don't die

[TheVeganicWitch]

They were more crackpots then they were anything else...the whole thing is so unfortunate for everyone :( I am uploading a video on this very subject right now...I just had to say something, and give a little sampling of that evidence that you pointed to above. Man, that case makes me so sad, those people were evidently not equipt to care for a child no matter what they did or didn't eat themselves :(

[sapperbloggs]

You've hit the nail on the head there. They were vegan, they were religious, and they were nuts. None of those leads to another, they're all independent. My mum works in child protection, my gf is a paediatric nurse and I'm studying psych... I'm thinking more and more that some people just don't have the brains to raise kids. They just shouldn't have children left in their care, they're incapable of raising them. The couple charged with murder in Bris recently are an unfortunate example of this

[TheVeganicWitch]

I don't watch the telly (cos I'm a crazy vegan LOLZ) what did the couple in Bris do?

[sapperbloggs]

I'm not much of a fan of TV... the news is on when I eat dinner, so I normally get that. A couple in Bris have been charged with neglect, torture and murder after their 18 month old twins were found dead, starved to death. The other 4 kids have gone into the care of rellies. There's a lot to this story that isn't out yet. Dad reckons he's not liable, as he had nothing to do with them. I'm sure whatever strange thing is found about this, will be seen as the 'reason' why it all happened

[TheVeganicWitch]

OMG that is soooo sad :*(

[TheVeganicWitch]

Oh btw Sapps i had heard they weren't even vegan (although they may have referred to themselves as such) but I couldn't remember what the offending substance was. One of my subs mentioned it on another video, it was fish oil. They also fed fish oil to their baby, which obviously isn't vegan. I think they may have been part of the Black Hebrew movement, which is completely crackers. They believe blacks are god's chosen people and follow Genesis word for word, not supplimenting B12 etc.