@jotathenoble The Wrights didn't like flying as Wilbur was only interested in the technical aspects of aircraft design (not configuration, but airfoil performance and control handling). After Wilbur demonstrated the world's first airplane in France (1908), the Wrights received over 35 awards (mostly engineering) from 8 different countries, not including Wilbur's nomination for a Nobel. They also received 15 engineering docurates (UofMunich, MIT, Yale, Harvard, UofParis, London University, etc.)
Who invented the television? Who invented the internet?
Almost every invention is collective. The Wright brothers contributed much to aviation and aircraft control, as well as Santos Dumond.
The Writghts build a glider and put an engine. When the glider became autoproper is uncertain. Otto Lilienthal had done 2000 controllable glider flights between 1891 and 1896.
Dumond has shown that you can take off without launchers or track.
@Maracangaia1 You make a good point about "who" invented the television or "who" invented the internet, but that doesn't apply to the airplane. Who was the original developers of the technology for accurately predicting airfoil performance and perfecting the concept of "Inherent Instability" allowing others to design successful flyable airplanes is very clear and precise and without question the Wrights. They developed ALL of the most important base line technology almost entirely on their own.
@Maracangaia1 What you may not know or realize, but the Wrights worked in private (not secret) to protect their technology nothing more. There had been a number of individuals that had gotten airborne for a short distance before them, but until 8Aug1908, no one in Europe had ever seen someone takeoff and actually "fly" in a machine that was under the full control of the operator, until Wilbur did that day at LeMans, France.
@Maracangaia1 My statements concerning the Wright brothers is NOT one of personal opinion or anything of the sort. It is an ABSOLUTE proveable certainty, end of story. Everything the Wrights did, as engineers, was well documented and duly registered with a variety of scientific organizations. Their US Patent #821,393 issued on 22May1906 was and is the "Grandfather" patent for the airplane (soaring or dynamic).
@BARUNIZ Actually, my facts are correct my friend. Santos Dumont, of all the active members of the ACdeF during the years 1905 through 1910, was the least active and the least successful. The first "actual" flight of an airplane, as we know them today occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France with Wilbur Wright at the controls of his Flyer III "A". 3 Weeks following his brother, Orville started with the 2nd Flyer III "A" over in the USA. Dumont's 1st first flight was on 13Feb1910.
@BARUNIZ Actually, my facts are correct my friend. Santos Dumont, of all the active members of the ACdeF during the years 1905 through 1910, was the least active and the least successful. The first "actual" flight of an airplane, as we know them today occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France with Wilbur Wright at the controls of his Flyer III "A". 3 Weeks following his brother, Orville started with the 2nd Flyer III "A" over in the USA. Dumont's 1st first flight was on 13Feb1910.
@jotathenoble But who Frances recognize as the first to fly? as far as I know Dumond is considered the first by France, and that is what really matters.
@jotathenoble For anyone to continue to consider that Santos Dumont was somehow connected to the development of the airplane, they are disgracing the memory of those that were not only involved, but in several cases lost their lives in the process. The ONLY successful aviators in France during 1907, were Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Bleriot, Viula, Ferber, and de Pischoff. Paris newspapers (Le Matin, Le Journal, NY Herald Paris etc) only list Dumont's failures in 1907, Dumont quit until 1909.
@jotathenoble OFFICIALLY, only the FAI can record aviation flights for the purpose of "records". The FAI lists the first flight (taking off from level ground, unassisted) as Clement Ader (FR) on 14Oct1897 for 300m. The first flight (level ground unassisted) of a powered aircraft demonstrating sustained and controlled flight was Orville Wright on 17Dec1903, The FAI also states the first circle flown (dynamic) was Wilbur Wright on 20Sept1904 (4 turns covering 4.43 km).
@jotathenoble The first "aircraft" actually designed by Dumont was his little Model 15 biplane and in Feb1907, on his first attempt at flight, his M15 was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when he tried to taxi. In April (07), Dumont tried again with the 14bis, but after 2 days of trying he could nothing but bounce across the ground. Same with his M17 biplane and his 1st mono-wing M18 (copied from Bleriot's TypeIII MWing and later, in 1909, called the "Demosielle").
@jotathenoble The Wrights (specifically Wilbur) spent 6 years working on all aspects of the HTA and in that time (after building 7 progressively advanced prototypes) developed the world's first practical airplane and the first "true" flight of an airplane in Europe, as we know them today, occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France. The Wright's invented the first "high efficiency" propeller, developed the foundation for Aeronautical Engineering, then developed and patented the 3-axis control system.
@jotathenoble There is lots of video of Wilbur demonstrating their technology in France from 1908. The biplane Wilbur is using (Wright Flyer III "A") is nothing other than the platform they used to demonstrate their technology. The Wrights DID NOT build upon others, as Wilbur was the first to understand the inter-relationship of CoL/CoD, and how aspect ratio/cord-line camber effected either (CoL/CoD), all in relation to airfoil performance predictability.
@Verdelufe I'm not an American, but regardless, try all you might, you can't change history. Soon a new book called from the "From The Ground Up" will be released and its going to change everything. Based on Era official records, letters, newspaper accounts, official documents, etc. etc. etc.. Santos Dumont had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the airplane. Dumont's first "actual" flight didn't occur until 13Feb1909 and then only after Bleriot and Wilbur Wright fixed his M19 for him.
the wright brothers used wing warping since 1899, in their first kites. and they patented it before 1906, and the u.s. court ruled that they had been copied by dumont. yes, i didnt give him a capital because he dosent deserve it. how old are you by the way? adult or kid?
@liamtobyaus actually Wilbur Wright copied the wing-warping from Edson F. Gallaudet . Take a look to his hydro-bike of 1898 and the wright wing-warping kite of 1899
@liamtobyaus First off Dumont and not dumont, he deserves right ? Second you have to read more about aviation you are not ripe yet. No major aviation pioneer that I am aware used wing warping, they used ailerons and didn't have any idea there was a patent from WB that covers any kind of control movement in the air, in other words they had a patent for any control in the air, like God, the space is mine.That was an obstacle for advancement, later that patent was dropped. Did you understand ?
@luisc4444 Santos Dumont DID NOT design the 14bis, Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie did and the 14bis was "officially" called a "Type du Wright" by the Aero Club de France in 1906. Voisin/Pelterie "officially" stated the 14bis design was a cross between the Wright's 1902 glider and one of L.Hargrave's box kites. In Jan1907, Dumont LIED to a Paris newspaper report (falsely claiming he had designed the 14bis) and was very nearly ejected from the ACdeF for his missconduct.
It does not matter who flew before Nov 12, 1906. The official first flight by a HTA
flying machine was 14 Bis by Dumont PERIOD !!! That was at Bagatelli France a super power at that time. It does not matter how many helped to have a final product like we have today. Don't try to take away the merits the Dumont deserves.
The first "airplane", ok, fine, but after Hiram Maxim's flight with the Aerodrome in 1894, Vuia's flight in his monoplane in march 1906, The Wright brother's flights in their Flyers in 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1906. You are probably right in claiming that it was the first flight in something called an "airplane", but Dumont was not the first to fly, not even the first to fly in Europe, but probably the first Brazilian to fly.
@Verdelufe oh shut it. The Wright Flyer flew in 1903. The proof is in the details. They could have only have achieved what they had by the time they made their achievements public without many years of experimentation. Everyone knows this and you are ridiculous for somehow implying that they copied anyone. Unlike the aristocrats of Europe who took up aviation, the Wright brothers were not wealthy and saw the airplane as a business which is why they were secretive about their technology.
@Verdelufe Europe saw the world's first airplane actually fly on 8Aug1908 (with Wilbur flying) and then North America on 3Sept1908 (Orville at the controls). The Wrights had flown before that, but those flights (157 total test flights) were engineering developmental test flights only, as the Wrights worked through 7 test mules before they built their first production "practical" airplanes (Flyer III "A"), the first was built in the spring of 1907 and serial no. 2 was built in June-July of 1908.
@Verdelufe You have harped at me for claiming the Wrights did this and the Wrights did that, well....., you want to know why I keep harping on it? Its because its the truth, sorry! The accomplishments of the Wrights, from their being the 1st to establish the concept of "Inherent Instability", then developing the 1st accurate method to predict airfoil performance, then designing the world's 1st propeller, and finally patenting the world's 1st 3-axis control system is all well documented.
@Verdelufe I say "last" propeller as the Wright's original propellers and subsequent propellers have all been found to have been 86% efficient and here we are 100 years later, with the advantage of CAD systems and the advanced form of airfoil calculation called Vector Analysis and there has been NO improvement made over the Wrights original designs. By searching through photos of their machines, with different hp ratings and you'll note each have propellers re-calibrated to the engine used.
@Verdelufe Probably of more interest, is to read through the lift/drift calculations for their propeller designs, written in Wilbur's own hand writing in the spring of 1903. WW wrote to several groups, mostly maritime sources for information on prop calculations, but nothing existed, even Chanute wrote to WW claiming it wasn't necessary. Fortunately, the Wrights understood aerodynamics far beyond Chanute and after 3 months of testing and calculations, they had the world's 1st and last propeller.
@Verdelufe The Wrights developed a stack of journals to record the data, recorded from each of the over 200 different airfoil shapes and then through a series of calculations, math formulas based on basic triginometry values and they could, from this test data, tell you how a given shape would perform at a low speed. (you can view these journals on the net) With their full size 1902 glider, Orville designed a unique method of where they could change their airfoil cam equally from top to bottom.
@Verdelufe From there, Wilbur and Orville began the tedious task of measuring an airfoil at a set AoA, calculate its performance value, then increase the AoA by 3°, then do it all over again, increase the AoA by 3° and do it again, and again and again. Then shape a new airfoil and start the whole process over, again and again, then re-shape a new airfoil and test it again and again, for hours and hours everyday for 3 months. After testing over 200 airfoils, they chose 2 for their next glider.
@Verdelufe Wilbur realized that the forces working on an airfoil moving through the air were at 90° angles to each other, so he developed the formula of sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k), which was only a start, first he had to re-calculate the true value of "k", which Smeathon had stated was 0.0054, but Wilbur had designed "2" balance scales for his wind tunnel that worked 90° to each other, so it was a pretty simple thing to calculate the true value of "k" to be 0.0033.
@Verdelufe A month later, Chanute asked Wilbur to speak at the Western Society of Engineers on his experiments and Wilbur did so on 18Sept1901, but not until after he performed a couple of experiments with a little wind tunnel his mechanic Charlie Taylor built for him. Wilbur made 4 little 6"² metal wings, but all 4 had different cambers and different aspect ratios and his initial test for lift and drift showed they were all different. Like a lightbulb, Wilbur realized everyone's error at once.
@Verdelufe The following year, still using Lilienthal's lift tables, Wilbur designed a new glider, he increased the wing area from 165² ft to 290² ft, but when they tethered it in the wind, his scales read the exact lift numbers as the 1900 glider? Wilbur was confounded and confused. Chanute showed up at Kitty Hawk and noted that their 1901 glider actually performed better than any in history and claimed Lilienthal's tables were 100%, but Wilbur was perplexed as to why the numbers were wrong?
@Verdelufe Wilbur had done something no one before had done. He, based on Chanute's suggestion, used Lilienthal's published lift tables to design the wings on his first glider (1900), but when his little glider failed to work as expected, Wilbur walked over to Kitty Hawk and bought a couple of spring scales, tethered them to his little glider an flew like a kite in the wind. When he read the scales, his "actual" lift was only 30% of what Lilienthal's tables said they should be?
@Verdelufe By the way, Smeathon's factor of 0.0054 for CoP was not the formula for determining lift, it is simply a conversion number for converting measured CoP from a small test airfoil into a predetermined airfoil "size" for your intended application. Lilienthal's mistake was that he "assumed" (as did Cayley and Phillips) that "drift" was linear and was more based on AoA than anything. You can see this when you study Lilienthal's Polar Scale. Wilbur discovered something all together different
@Verdelufe Actually, you're wrong about everyone was flying in Europe. No one had flown until Wilbur Wright started his demonstration flights on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France. Yes, there had been a number of individuals that had managed to power themselves across the ground for a short distance, but nobody had flown as we today know flight. Of the ACdeF members, Delagrange and Farman were far and away the most successful, but none of them could actually demonstrate sustained or controlled flight.
@Verdelufe The reason Orville's machine had those specifications applied (short cord and span) was because they had increased Orville's Flyer III "A" camber by 1 point, but they reduced the wing area by that amount to increase their speed by 7 mph. One of the specifications required of the US Signal Corp was that the machine had to successful demonstrate it could maintain a min 40 mph over an oval course, in all wind conditions up to 30mph. Orville's machine was precisely 7mph faster than Wil's.
Why the WB would receive the Nobel Prize if everybody was flying, and they made no peace only war with other aviators Why? Where is it? I know Al Gore & Yasset Arafat received and Thomas Edison did not. Weird. Again Lilienthal took formulas from Smeaton. I want to know where in a book or reference says that all the details of Lift forces, airfoil performance and all the variables pertaining to aerodynamics was WB discoveries with their own mathematical researchs, if you prove it. IT IS THE END.
@Verdelufe The Wright's propellers should tell you something about the Wrights, but to further show you, do you know the difference between the Wright Flyer III "A" Wilbur flew at LeMans (FR) in 1908 and the Wright Flyer III "A" Orville flew at Ft Myer (USA) a month later? Everyone always says they were identical machines, but they weren't. Orville's machine had a 3" shorter cord-line and a 6" shorter span, do you know why?
@Verdelufe After reading through that, then you can next start with the data base at the Wright State University and then move over to the United States National Archives, where over 30,000 individuals papers from the Wrights are stored. Also of great interest to you would be Fred C. Kelly's (a close friend of Orville's) book "Miracle at Kitty Hawk" which chronicles the letters written by and to the Wrights beginning in 1890. Most included letters are between Wilbur and Octave Chanute.
@Verdelufe You are absolutely correct on one thing, every single aviation pioneer up until 1908, had no understanding of the relationship of CoL to CoD ratio, but Wilbur, along with his brother and Dr. George Spratt had done extensive testing in this area and Wilbur's application of his formulas were within 3% accuracy of modern aerodynamics using "Vector Analysis" and CAD systems. Just look what they did with their 1911 glider! From a 30m high sand dune, Orville stayed aloft for 9m 45sec.
I had enough of WB being the first in everything regarding aviation. So Chanute was not their mentor,they found out about the Smeaton formula by their own.Only in 1915 NACA( then NASA) started making wind tunnel test extensively to come to a predictable performance with wings performance. It is so complex you have angle of attack viscosity of liquids(air) Reynolds Numbers never stop, I have no idea where you got all this about WB being the first, can you tell me where to consult to see that.
@Verdelufe Start by first reading Lilienthal's science book "Birdflight as the Basis of Aviation". Then take note of Lilienthal's "polar lfit scale" and his published lift tables (Lilienthal mistakenly used Smeathon's CoP factor of 0.0054 which was over 40% in error). Once you begin to understand that, then read Wilbur Wright's paper called "Some Aeronautical Experiments", dated 18Sept1901. This was the text of his presentation to the Western Society of Engineers on that date. There's more.
@Verdelufe Why do you think the Wrights received 15 honorary docurates in engineering from universities around the world (included MIT in America and the University of Munich in Germany, among several others) and Wilbur was nominated for the Nobel prize in engineering, by the Science Institute of France, in 1909?
Wilbur's Nobel prize nomination was primarily for his work in aerodynamic research by the way, not for his patents.
@Verdelufe Testing here in England, show that Dumont's 14bis propeller was only 19% efficient, meaning only 9.5 hp from his 50 hp engine was converted into thrust, while the Wright's first test platform (Flyer I) only had a 12.5 hp engine, but their propellers were so efficient, 10.4 hp was converted into thrust. The Wright's orginal Flyer I they flew on 17Dec1903 produced more thrust than Dumont's 14bis with an engine that had 4 times the power. Direct power Flyer I = 135lbs, 14bis=92lbs.
Every major aviation pioneer was flying unaware of CoL & CoD even the WB did not apply airfoil performance on their Flyer, their patent focus was for controls specially wing warping. I would be glad to give credit to WB for their contribution to determine airfoil performance but first you have to accept that Dumont was the officially first to fly and not WB even if he made a turn or not, and he also contributed to HTA, even if was not in a mathmatical manner, like many others pioneers. Deal ?
@Verdelufe Sorry my friend, you are COMPLETELY wrong, not only did the Wrights originate the foundation for all aerodynamic research, Wilbur published his findings on aerodynamics as an official science paper in 1902, world wide. That is established scientific fact. Their patents were for completely unrelated engineering and application design, namely, their Patent #821,393 was for the cause & effect of a 3-axis control system for a flying machine based on "Inherent Instability".
@Verdelufe The Wrights so understood the dynamics behind airfoil design, the original propellers they used on Flyer I have been tested several times, both over in America at the AMES reseach center wind tunnels (NASA) and by two different advanced engineering groups in Europe and those original propellers were found to be 86% efficient at power to thrust conversion. There has been no improvement on that in over one hundred years. Modern props on a typical turboprop are only 83%-86% efficient.
I tried to stay away from the complexity of aerodynamics but you insist on it. Another monster physicist from the 1700's John Smeaton developed the equation for LIFT, came with his K constant after many wind tunnel test but WB made more wind tunnels tests than Smeaton then K was changed from 0.005 to 0.0033 but the WB had no idea why the V is squared in the equation. Modern LIFT equation is based on Bernoulli & Third Law of Newton depending on many factors. WB were not monsters like those guys.
@Verdelufe Actually you're totally wrong. Smeathon's CoP of factor of "k" was 0.0054 and that was established by him in 1759 to calculate the torque applied to a shaft attached to a windmill or waterwheel. Lilienthal used this value of "k" for his lift tables in 1891. They were both wrong. Wilbur Wright corrected the value of "k" to its actual value of 0.0033 in 1901 and he published his findings at the time. Modern Vector Analysis has corrected "k" to a more accurate 0.00329 for lowspeed wings.
@Verdelufe In 1902, Wilbur published his new formula of sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k) in 1902 as an official scientific paper and it would have been rather difficult to have done that without knowing that "V" equalled the velocity of air flow over an airfoil. Want to know just how good the Wrights were with understanding aerodynamics? Check out what they did at KH in 1911 with an experimental glider of theirs.
@Verdelufe In the summer of 1911, Orville flew an experimental glider that Wilbur had designed. The purpose of the experiment was to test a new idea on airfoil design of theirs. Their 1911 glider had the world's first laminer flow wings with high root to tip taper. The aspect ratio of their wings was 10.3. Orville recorded one flight with an endurance of 9m 46sec, which included 3 complete circles starting from a 30m high sand dune. That record stood for over 10 years by the way.
@Verdelufe At the very least, if you're going to quote something from history, you had better get your facts straight. John Smeathon was an 18th century (UK) engineer that NEVER once used a wind tunnel. He simply applied some basic math formulas allowing a mill owner (wind or water) to decide on paddle size. His CoP factor was useless for calculating lift of an airfoil. There were several people in the late 19th century that used a wind tunnel, but the Wrights were the first to use it correctly.
@Verdelufe The Wrights revolutionized the science of aerodynamics. Wilbur's conceptual & original idea on "Inherent Instability" led to them developing the world's first 3-axis control system, for which the Wright's were issued the USPatent #821,393 where lines 45-100 section 3 relate to the cause and effect of lateral control. There were 37 different courts in 5 differents countries that also supported and found in the Wright's favor, regardless of your baseless claims, even after a 100 years.
@Verdelufe Following the Wright's extraordinary flight demonstrations in 1908, the Wright's were given 15 honorary PhDs in science and engineering from universities around the world, including MIT in the USA and the University of Munich in Germany and the Science Institute of France nominated Wilbur for the 1909 Nobel prize for advanced engineering, but Wilbur asked they remove his name because the nomination failed to recognize his brother Orville and his friend and collaborator, Dr. Spratt.
@Verdelufe I just noticed you claim "modern lift equation is based on Bernoulli & 3rd Law of Newton depending on many factors." Well, you're right, but you STILL DON'T GET IT! The Wrights didn't discover the process of "how" lift is generated, Wilbur developed the 1st "accurate" method to measure/calculate the effect of air over an airfoil. With their WT results & original math formulas, you could design a full size airfoil with predictable performance, proven to be within a 3%+/- window.
@Verdelufe All of you Dumonters are arguing something you cannot win. Every aeronautical and aerospace engineer in the world can tell exactly who was first to not only conceive of the idea of how the CoL relates to the CoD, but who developed the orginal math formulas for determining airfoil performance based on the effect that camber, camber to cord-line ratio, and an airfoil's aspect ratio and that, with absolutely NO QUESTION, was Wilbur Wright. Everything Wilbur discovered was documented.
It did not matter then any ratio it was trial and error and could be canvas or paper
it did not matter then. If anyone had enough LIFT to overcome WEIGHT and enough THRUST to overcome DRAG that is it they would fly, they were not worry about making turns then, later they start developing controls but needed strong planes. WB made the Flyer strong enough to withstand strong winds because they're primary gliders then themselves had a peculiar own way to maneuver it
@Verdelufe See, you're suffering from the same problems that Dumont, Delagrange, Farman, and all the others had. They just didn't know what to do. Their biggest mistake was they all ignored the obvious, forget about an engine, start with a glider first so you can figure it out, like the Wrights did, then add an engine once you're ready. Why do you think it seemed that the Wrights could fly right from the beginning (8Aug1908) while no one else could????
@Verdelufe You shape a wing a specific way, with known camber, a known aspect ratio, and a known camber to cord-line ratio, it will produce a predictable CoL to CoD ratio, predetermined for whatever performance you're looking for and Wilbur Wright was the first to discover and establish that science. THE SCIENCE OF AERODYNAMICS IS AN ABSOLUTE, YOU CANNOT ARGUE IT AND IT IS HISTORICALLY BEYOND QUESTION THAT WILBUR WRIGHT WAS THE FIRST TO DISCOVER AND ESTABLISH THE FOUNDATION OF THAT SCIENCE!!!!!
@Verdelufe Strangley, you have a very peverted idea of just what happened back then, and its even more odd how you have some idea or belief that Santos Dumont had anything to do with it. Do you know how many different aircraft were designed between 1906 and 1909? No one really knows the actual no., but I have photos of 242 different powered aircraft, by different I mean totally different. Oh, and those 242 we know about, that doesn't count anything the Wrights had nor does it count orthinopters.
You make a big deal about the airfoil's aspect ratio. Just by looking the shape of a wing without any calculation anybody can guess which wing will perform better.
a short length and wide width certainly will perform badly just by looking the shape of it. With or without Wrights tunnel trials everything would fall in place no matter what. It is a continuous work that I said before had been worked up to get a better performance up to this day and scientists to this day still analyse variables.
@Verdelufe Thanks for making my point. The Wrights also discovered that using WAG to design an airfoil simply didn't work, their first two gliders proved that and Wilbur discovered that Lilienthal's lift charts were wrong. What he then developed was an accurate method to measure an airfoil's CoL & CoD and then you could also measure the effect of camber, cord-line camber ratio, and aspect ratio. With Wil's new math formula you could then design a full size airfoil with predictable performance.
Thanks for the, APPARENTLY SO, meaning the french people are ignorant laypersons like myself. Do not keep saying that I said Dumont invented the plane, I never said that, what I always said was that he was the first officially PERIOD. Now do not tell me Wrights did everything and nobody else count. You just says nice things of accomplishemt about Gliders Wrights and want to take away from Dumont accomplishments witnessed by the French people who put his face in 1973 in a post stamp who deserved.
@Verdelufe Aspect ratio is critical as it relates to airfoil performance. The Wright's 1900/1901 gliders had a wing area of 165sqft and 290sqft respectfully, with an aspect ratio of 3.5 for the 1900 glider and 3.0 for the 1901. Their 1900 glider actually performed better than their 1901. After a winter of wind tunnel testing, their 1902 glider's airfoil no.'s were 305sqft area but had an aspect ratio of 6.5 and it produced 97% of lift prediction, and 3.7 times the lift of their 1901 glider.
@Verdelufe The gang of four could only fly in calm wind because they had no control system, but after Wilbur arrived and started demonstrating his machine, he could fly in wind as high as 48kph, perform complete circles and then safely land, which he did on numerous occasions. On 31Dec1908, Wilbur flew large circles (4 km diameter circles) over a field near LeMans, all during a wind and freezing rain storm, with recorded gusts as high as 60kph. He stayed up for 2h18m, but the cold got to him.
@Verdelufe Do you know what problems the Aero Club (France) members were having with their machines in 1907 and 1908? I'm talking about Delagrange, Pelterie, Bleriot, & Farman (Dumont failed after trying 4 different machines of his during 1907, so he just gave up and went back to his No. 16 airship and didn't try to fly an HTA again until 1909). The gang of four (listed already) were each having some success, but only in the most calm of wind, as even 5-7kph would ground them, did you know that?
@Verdelufe Its nice to have heroes and if you were to say, Santos Dumont was a real gentleman and treated all he knew as equals, well, that's an opinion and from all I've read its probably accurate, but I can't argue that one way or another because I didn't know the man. You try tell me that Dumont invented the airplane and was the first to fly, well, that's something totally different. I'm pragmatic about my study of the technology of the first airplanes and there it was all Wilbur Wright.
@Verdelufe Wilbur Wright, was not only the first to understand the interrelationship of the Coefficient of Lift and the Coefficient of Drag and how airfoil camber, the ratio of camber to cordline, and an airfoil's aspect ratio effect performance, he was the first to develop an accurate method of measuring a test wing in a wind tunnel and he wrote a new series of math formulas so you convert your readings into a full size wing. His science provided for +-2% accuracy of predicted wing performance.
@Verdelufe All I'm trying to do is get you to think for yourself and quit just blindly following what someone has told you. Peformance of an airfoil, as used on a low speed aircraft (↓250kts), is an exact science, most of which is known in total today. Guess what, at the turn of the century, no one understood it, some thought a flat wing was acceptable (like Dumont) while the majority thought a curved wing was better, but in reality they were all wrong. Trail & error was the best they could do.
@Verdelufe I keep repeating myself because you're either naive, fanatically nationalistic, or you just don't like the idea that an American beat the entire world by not only having developed the world's first practical and flyable airplane, they patented the most important part, the control system. After 1906, if you wanted to design an airplane and fly, successfully, you could have done it, no problem, but if you did want to fly, then you had to pay a royalty to the inventors first.
@Verdelufe Part 4: ..devise the apparatus by which it has been reduced to successful practice of flight. Your discovery of Lilienthal's errors, and their correction as you have listed as the Wright lift tables will remain in the minds of all who fly from this day. I hope upon my return from Europe that we will be able to resume our former relations." (if you're curious, Chanute died before he and Wilbur could get together)
You always write what you read in a book and never stops like a machinegun from a Kamikasi, with all due respect you sound like a NUT because you never answer the major question, always dodge them, and only answer the easy ones that suits you, and EXTREMELY REPEATITIVE. I am going to ask again is the french people ignorant laypersons like myself.
@Verdelufe To answer your question, about the French, apparantly so, but why don't you read what the French people had to say after seeing Wilbur fly at LeMans in 1908? Why don't you check that out? Read the quote that the editor of L'Aerophile magazine (official magazine of the Aero Club de France) , Georges Besancon, had to say about Wilbur Wright after his first demo flight on 8Aug1908 at LeMans. Don't believe me, go look it up for yourself.
@Verdelufe Part 3: ..made mountains out of mole hills. I am sure that in my own case there has never been a mole hill of disparagement of your tremendous achievements of claim that I am entitled to even a small part of credit for what you have done. Whatever other impressions have got aboard originated with persons who knew of our intimate relations or others who may have felt jealousy at your renowned success. Hopefully, you and Orville will arise, deservedly, as the first in history to
@Verdelufe Part 2: Chanute continues in his 14May1910 letter: "....I have always written and spoken of you as the original investigators and worthy of the highest praise for what you have given me and the world. How much I may have been of help I am afraid has been so little I fear I have only been a hindrance to your experiments and discoveries...I have never made any claims to the opposite. I gave no credence to the newspapers...being aware how newspaper reporters
@Verdelufe Part 1: You also stated that Wilbur Wright was just a student of Octave Chanute, but I suggest you read the letters from Chanute to Wilbur dated: 23Jan1910 and 14May1910. It seems that Octave Chanute himself says YOU ARE WRONG. In the second letter, Chanute said and I quote: "I have never given out the impression, either in writing or in speech that you had taken up aeronautics at my instance or were, as you put it, pupils of mine!.....
@Verdelufe Sorry, but you still can't argue the facts. The question of rather Dumont had anything to do with the HTA is not in question, as the science and engineering of a working airplane is now fully understood. We have the technology (CAD) to use photo/film of the early pioneer's aircraft and we can demonstrate why different individuals failed to fly, but with Dumont's machines we've never needed to use that technology, as causal observation of his machines proves why they all failed.
How can you take 4 decades of laypersons like myself claiming irrational idea that Dumont has something to do with HTA. Almost 4 decades ago the french people released a stamp in 1973 with Dumont face, Dirigible, 14 Bis & Demoiselle on it. You missed that one. That is where FAI is, I ask you now, are the french people ignorant laypersons like myself.
@Verdelufe You keep stating that Dumont never bothered with "patents", which is true, but do you know why? The reason Dumont never bothered with any patents was because he NEVER developed anything associated with the airplane that he could have considered to have patented, that's why! You even once claimed Dumont was a genius for his Demoiselle, but it was just a copy of his buddy's (Bleriot) little mono-wing from several months before anyone saw the Demoiselle. Bleriot's machine was better.
@Verdelufe If you want to know what my agenda is, well, I have spent the last 10 years as a student of aviation history, I want to know the "truth" of how the airplane was invented. But, for 4 decades I've heard laypersons, like yourself, claim this irrational and erroneous idea or concept that somehow Dumont had anything to do with the invention of the airplane. Dumont had absolutely NOTHING to do with the invention of the airplane and the first time he flew wasn't until 13Feb1909, not before.
@Verdelufe After dozens of attempts at flight, powered or otherwise, made before Wilbur's first demonstration flight on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, several people had struggled to get off the ground and the few that did, just couldn't stay there. A couple had managed to make a partial turn (Henri Farman was the only person to have actually completed a 360° turn, but he only did it once). Try as they might, they couldn't fly, then Wilbur showed the world what they had taken 9 years to develop on 8/8/08.
@Verdelufe The reality is that Dumont really had absolutely nothing to offer in the way of HTA flight, he wasn't first (we know of at least 11 people who had gotten off the ground with a powered machine before him, not counting the Wrights) and officially the FAI states that Clement Ader was first, but we aviation historians know it was actually the French experimenter Felix du Temple that was first in 1874. The first modern era glider flight was Sir Cayley of England in 1847.
@Verdelufe All of you Dumonters are all hung up on this idea of "who" flew first and how far they powered themselves across the ground crap, the Wright's discoveries WERE and NEVER have been about any of that. Wilbur Wright NEVER claimed he flew first, as he felt their early test flights were just that, tests only to work through the technical problems assoicated with practical and controlled flight of a heavier-than-air flying machine, something once developed they could sell for a profit.
@Verdelufe After Wilbur discovered the basic mistakes of everyone before them, more specifically, the interrelationship of CoL & CoD, they then could get back to developing Wilbur's idea on "Inherent Instability" and his lateral control idea. It took 3 years to get through the lift/drift problems first, then another 3 months of field testing to perfect their control system. Once their patents were secure in Europe and North America, they offered it and their lift tables to anyone who wished it.
All Wrights fans are arrogant, to deny Chanute as the mentor for the Wright brothers really shows what agenda you have. Chanute was PURE TRUE PIONEER in aviation
he was the one who encouraged everyone to work on a huge project that need the help of every mind, he did not seek patents nor hide any techinical information, he said, it all belong to the public, same vision like Dumont and others. Airfoil performance has been worked up even today. WHAT IS YOU POINT ???
@Verdelufe Octave Chanute was the one person encouraging everyone to share information, even Wilbur Wright appriecated him for that and said so many times, but the Wrights were competing against many forces over themselves, particularly Samuel Langley and Glenn Curtiss. When Wilbur discovered where everyone had failed to understand the dynamics involved with airfoil design, they offered to share that information as they saw fit.
The only thing that you trying to do is to save the Wrights by talking only on predict performance because they have nothing else, cheating with a picture and being a gliders experts. Already told you that up to this day the interpretation of lift force depends on many variables as scientists discuss it. Wrights never applied airfoil performance on their Flyer, it remained the same for years, first off they would eliminate biplane if they were brilliant reducing drag & weight.
@Verdelufe I find it kind of interesting that even after they cheated and designed a moderized replica of Dumont's 14bis, in the video above (the original was designed by Voisin-Pelterie) , and even after adding a light modern engine, an actual propeller, and even with lift producing airfoils the replica 14bis still can't fly!!! Kind of proves my point about Dumont doesn't it?
@Verdelufe You mentioned that the Wright's Flyers as being just powered "gliders", well I've got news for you, "ALL" successful airplanes since the Wright Flyers are gliders if you shut the engine off! Do you know what happened to Dumont on 24Nov1907 when his engine quit on his M18? His machine just stopped in mid-air, dropped like a rock, and he crashed, luckily Dumont's injuries were minor. Wilbur purposely shut his engine off, LeMans (Flyer A), then performed figure-8 maneuvers to a landing.
@Verdelufe The Wright's understanding of aerodynamics was years ahead of anyone else and their work was NOT built upon the work of others. It was Wilbur's idea to measure his machine's actual lift, something that had never been done before, so Wilbur walked to Kitty Hawk, bought a pair of fish scales, then attached them to his 1900 glider, tethered in the wind of Kill Devil Hills. So when his glider's lift was less than 30% of Lilienthal's lift tables, he asked the scientific question of WHY?
@Verdelufe Chanute had no understanding of aerodynamics, he even suggested to Wilbur to try building an orthinopter as late as 1906 . Source: Chanute letter to Wilbur Wright, 15Oct1906; "...there are many shapes of birds, each flying after a system of their own....I cheerfully acknowledge that I have little idea of how difficult the flying problem really is and that its solution is beyond my powers, but not yours Wil....maybe flapping wings may work too do you think this possible?"
@Verdelufe Chanute was an accomplished "civil" engineer and understood engineering as it applied to mechanical devices and the structural strength of the railroad bridges he had designed&built in his lifetime, but aerodynamics was something he didn't even have the most basic understanding of. Regardless that many had experimented during the 19th century on the subject, Wilbur Wright was the first to finally develop an accurate and useable method for measuring and predicting airfoil performance.
@Verdelufe Because of Wilbur's balance scale, he could shape a small model airfoil of 6in², measure its pressure and then rotate it 90°, retest it with his second balance scale, then with the application of a basic triginometry formula (formulated by Wilbur) produce a working number. Wilbur corrected Lilienthal's "CoP=SV²kCL" to "sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k)" (Wil corrected the CoP facter of k=0.0054 to k=0.0033). This translated into 97% accuracy of lift prediction to a full size airfoil.
Issac Newton, Daniel Bernoulli were already pretty advance for the 17th centuries.
Are you saying that trigonometry of the Wrights were the solution for the lift problem, you might be kidding me. It is hard for you to accept that Chanute who made the brothers as far as thinking. Do not forget that they kept their Flyer stale for many years, if they had an extraordinary brilliance they should had done something about it, truth they registered a Glider in 1904 then attorney turned to plane 1906.
@Verdelufe Actually, Chanute offered nothing to the Wrights, at least as far as what Wilbur Wright discovered in his wind tunnel in 1901/1902. I have copies of the letters between Wilbur and Chanute from that time and Chanute simply couldn't comprehend the details of the Wright's discovery. It was Wilbur's understanding of the relationship (cause&effect) between the CoL&CoD based from his measurements made with his small balance scale he designed, which revolutionized advanced aerodynamics.
FAI conceded recently the world record to an Ultra Light called CEA-308 that flies with a total of 300Kg including Plane + Fuel+ Refig. Water + Pilot Weight from a University in Brazil to see Google " bol1288 " Do not forget that Embraer sells Exec. Jets to Canada & USA - Brazil has tradition in building planes Dumont is not a lone figure.
@Verdelufe With an extraordinary act of brillance, Wilbur Wright realized that an airfoil's camber, aspect ratio, and camber-cordline ratio, as well as AoA, would all have an effect on the Coefficient of Lift. Until that moment, no one, let me repeat that NOT ONE SINGLE SCIENTIST or ENGINEER had ever even considered that possibility. Wilbur also convieved of the idea that the forces acted in a 90° angle to each other, which allowed him to use basic triginometry to develop accurate lift tables.
Wright Brothers Part 1 -5 Animated clips: To make Alberto Santos Dumont to look like a sinister Captain Hook with a very dark skin is laughble, how racist and ridiculous way to depict Dumont, He went to the best school in Paris to study Science with devotion not a High School dropped outs like the Wright Brothers. His father had a brazilian coffe plantation, very rich Brazilian and his mother also a Brazilian and they were both white. PROPAGANDA MACHINE does not work anymore after Internet.
@Verdelufe You're a bit naive about someone going to school. The science & engineering for aerodynamics, as it applies to airfoil design, was a complete and total unknown until 1901. You couldn't go to school to learn it in other words. There had been a few scientists that tested parts of the overall, but the theories of the early engineers was either incomplete or just simply wrong. Wilbur Wright was the first to understand it and he alone established the correct science of airfoil design.
@Verdelufe Most early pioneers believed that a cambered wing was the way to go, but there were a small number of early experimenters that believed the flat or uncambered wing would be sufficient, Santos Dumont believed in the latter. After the Wrights measured the actual lift of their 1900 & 1901 while tethered in the wind,they discovered Lilienthal's lift tables were wrong. Testing by trial & error would be too expensive and take too long, so Wilbur developed his balance scale fora wind tunnel.
Cont. It has been known that "Wings with cambered airfoil are unstable but perform the best by tests" regardless of any mathematical conclusion. A complete analyses w/angle of attack will need Reynolds, Bernoulli, Newton & Calculus.
What Wilbur Wright discovered was a method by which you could accurately measure an airfoil's performance in a wind-tunnel. It was his balance gauge and mathematical formulation for converting measured information into a full size airfoil with predictable performance. You are WRONG BearFlight !!! Cont.
Santos Dumont grandfather was french Francois Dumont, his father Henri Dumont was born in Brazil then moved back to France to study Engineering then returned to Brazil. His mother Francisca Paula Santos ( she was white, for the racists )
@Verdelufe While back down at Kitty Hawk in 1911, the Wrights along with an extended number of other engineers, tested a new glider that was equipped with their latest patent for a deflective horizontal elevator, rather than a "flying" elevator. This glider was equipped with their most efficient airfoil they had ever designed, which had an AR of 11.5 with a tapered main airfoil set. Orville set a world gliding endurance record of 11 minutes 35 seconds, starting from a 30m high sand dune.
@Verdelufe Part 20: Personally, I think the greatest irony that all of you have missed, is that had the Wrights not been so successful with their test machines (1900-1905) names like Ferber, Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, etc. would have been little known or remembered. Dumont certainly would have been remembered, but only because of his dirigibles. The ACdeF members struggled and tried, but they couldn't understand why the Wrights were so successful and they were not. 8Aug1908 changed everything.
@Verdelufe Part 19: Santos Dumont was an interesting character, as he became world famous for his dirigible flights over Paris at the turn of the century, but its no secret he firmly believed that HTA flight wasn't possible (its all a matter of record with the ACdeF). After Archdeacon and Ferber learned of the Wright's extraordinary success with their Flyer III test bed, Archdeacon knew they (ACdeF) had to do something to save the Honor of France, at least in his mind.
@Verdelufe Part 18: It should also be noted that the Wrights never went after anyone in court, if those people were not a business threat to them, which is why Wilbur Wright personally requested that the LCGdeNA drop their lawsuit against Santos Dumont. Yes, Dumont had illegally used the Wright's patented technology, but Wilbur thought that the LCGdeNA's claim that Dumont was "criminal" in his actions (for using it to make money) was a stretch. Finally, in 1910, the LCGdeNA agreed.
@Verdelufe Part 17: The Clement-Bayard Co. was licensed by the Wrights to build the Vert4 engine, but they also had paid LCGdeNA for the user's license for the Wright USP #821,393 as well. So excited by the Dumont co-designed (Bleriot, Saulnier, and Wright) M19 Demosielle, C-B pre-built 50 M19 air frames, offering the option of adding any one of three engines, including the Vert4, but after only selling 15 in a year, they scraped the remained 35 and used the parts to build Farman III biplanes.
@Verdelufe Part 16: So you see my friend, when the Wrights showed up in Europe in 1908, it was for the singular purpose of selling their machine and if you happened to be an aviator experimenter and didn't want a Wright Flyer, then you could purchase a user's license from the Wrights to use their technology, if you wanted to develop your own machine, like Henri Farman, Louis Bleriot, or Leon Delagrange did. Or do like Clement-Bayard did, who built Demosielle's under license from the Wrights.
@Verdelufe Part 15: When Wilbur designed his wind tunnel balance scale set, to directly measure lift and the ratio of drag, that wasn't enough you do realize, as Wilbur then had to also devise an entirely new set of math formulas that would convert these recorded numbers into something useful. Lilienthal had used John Smeathon's CoP conversion factor of 0.0054 (Wil corrected it to its true value 0.0033), which only further rendured Lilienthal's lift table numbers of no value in airfoil design.
@Verdelufe Part 14: Finally, in January of 1909, Wilbur's brother and sister showed up, so they moved their operations even further from Paris (Pau), hoping they would finally get some peace so they could start their flight school and have the opportunity to build 2 more machines to use in Italy and Germany. Wilbur took care of Italy (where a passenger took the 1st movie film from an airplane while in flight). Then Farman, Delagrange, the Zens, Lambert, & Bleriot came to Pau too.
@Verdelufe Part 13: You should read the private letters of Wilbur's to his family back in Dayton, between May and December of 1908. All of the attention he was getting from the European newspapers and then when all of Europe's Royalty began showing up, Wilbur was overwhelmed and was looking for any excuse just to go home. There were mornings when he would leave his room in LeMans and 2,000 to 3,000 people would be waiting outside, hoping he was going to fly that day, most often he did not.
@Verdelufe Part 12: While the Wrights were in Europe (1908-1909), they spent that time trying to set up manufacturing/marketing of their machine in France-UK-Italy and Germany, which they did. Their marketing in Europe was handled by the CR Flint Co of New York. Wilbur only flew for the purpose of demonstrating their machine and unlike anyone else, their machine actually worked, where no one elses did, plus they could fly in wind and rain, it didn't matter. All ACdeF machines required calm.
@Verdelufe Part 11: After 8Aug1908, the Wrights not only established the base technology so others could develop machines that were actually capable of flight, they became very rich, as they should have been for what they had given the world. I do find the number of individuals that tried to steal their work to be interesting, considering it was pretty easy to get a license from them for their control system and most honest people did, but there were a few who didn't, so they took them to court.
@Verdelufe Part 10: When Wilbur finally started his demo flights at LeMans in 1908, they didn't care about any records or who flew first or not, they simply didn't care. If you wanted to fly an airplane, they had the only machine in the world that could fly, just as everyone had hoped, especially the ACdeF members, as they were astonished and amazed by Wilbur's machine. There were two things the Wrights offered, you could buy one of their machines or buy a users license and design your own.
@Verdelufe Part 9: After 1905, the Wrights didn't need to fly, because they knew what they had, so they spent the next 3 years trying to land contracts with various governments. It was Wil and Orv's original intent to sell their machine to governments, to recoup their investment and provide for their families, after they were going to give it all free to the aviator experimenters out there, but there were so many who lied to the French-German-British governs, they had to change their direction.
@Verdelufe Part 8: After they redesigned their 1902 glider to handle the increased weight of an engine and transmission, they flew it on 5 test flights, proving their base technology was sound, so then the real work began. They spent 1904 going through numerous configural changes with the Flyer II, finally ending with the more evenly balanced Flyer III in 1905. They ended all their testing after their endurance tests established fuel use, it was months before notified of their patents in Mrh'06.
@Verdelufe Part 7: After nearly 3 months of testing over 200 different wing shapes, some with radial camber, others with hyperbolical camber, then he tried different ARs and on and on, then after 100s of hours of testing, they found two shapes that when built full size, he knew exactly how their airfoil would perform. Of course this wasn't until after he developed a new math formula so this could be done, proving everyone before them was wrong. Once this was fixed, then they worked on control.
@Verdelufe Part 6: Wilbur knew that trying to experiment with a full size machine, to go through the process of "trial & error" as you correctly noted before, just wasn't possible. They had neither the time or money to do that, so Wil devised a scale measuring instrument that would directly measure the lift and drag generated by a scale model wing in a wind tunnel. There was an exception though, Wil correctly figured out drag was not linear, but dynamic, as camber, AR, all effected lift too.
@Verdelufe Part 5: In 1901, Wil increased his wing area from 165² ft to 290² ft, yet the actual measured (true) lift was exactly the same as the year before! Wilbur was both confused and intrigued at the same time. Chanute showed up, but he had no answers, but despite their early disappointment, Wilbur rebuilt the wings on his 1901 glider (decreased the camber) and eventually did have numerous successful flights. Despite this, Wilbur was more interested in why their numbers were so far off.
@Verdelufe Part 4: After their first trip down to KH in 1900, Wilbur was disappointed because his glider wouldn't fly very well, at least with him on board and according to the wings he had designed (based on Lilienthal's lift charts which Chanute had provided to Wil) they should have easily lifted him in a minimum of headwind. So, Wilbur did something unusual, he went into town and bought a pair of spring scales and actually measured the pull (lift) of his machine and it only had 30% lift.
@Verdelufe Part 3: Wilbur at first designed (on paper) a method of lateral control, but everything he designed was simply too heavy (ailerons, wing AoA variation with a set of gears to operate it, even a single spoiler rise, etc..). It wasn't until he found that by simply twisting a rectanglar shaped box, that he could effectively get the reaction he wanted with something that would be sufficiently light enough for their glider, but it would require symetrical wings and Chanute/Herring had one.
@Verdelufe Part 2: The scientist/engineers were Cayley, Lilienthal, Maxim, Langley, and then the Wright brothers. Wilbur Wright was the first to suggest that "Inherent Stability" was maybe incorrect, at least for a low speed aircraft and that maybe "Inherent Instability" would be more successful, after all, that's how birds fly, by being "....aggressive at maintaining their equilibrium..". So he needed to come with a practical way to vary lateral lift (left to right) of the main lifting planes.
@Verdelufe Part 1: There were two camps during that time, there were the aviators, each attempting to gain fame from their flight records, with Henri Farman being the most successful of that group. Other notable HTA aviators of that era were Louis Bleriot, Leon Delagrange, Robert Esnault-Pelterie, De Pischoff, Gastambide-Mengin, Captain Ferber, Gabriel Voisin, Moore Brabazon, Charles Rolls, Hubert Latham, and certainly Glenn Curtiss.The other group were the scientist/engineers.
@Verdelufe In that film of Dumont on 13Nov1906, the film is absolute proof of Dumont's conceptional failure. Yes, toward the end you do see some ballooning of his covering, but that was only because of the physical reaction between his CoP and AoA combined with his forward speed. That "flight" of his was nothing more than a forced power "jump", it still couldn't fly and there is no evidence it ever did fly. ALL of the period documents show that Dumont never flew the Voisin-Pelterie 14bis.
Code V0vZWo5gE1U you can see the airfoils when he reached 220m. Everything was made by trial and error, no worries about patent or mathematical calculation.
@Verdelufe You say the 14bis above was not improved abit???? You've got to be kidding me, who do you think you're posting to?? OPEN YOUR EYES! The so-called "replica" above has airfoils, Dumont's 14bis DID NOT, it had flat non-lift producing stretched cloth panels, there dozens of photographs and even a movie film of Dumont trying and trying to fly, but it was a no go, why do you think it never flew. This is ABSOLUTE, there is no question that the machine Dumont called the 14bis was a failure.
What Wilbur Wright discovered was a method by which you could accurately measure an airfoil's performance in a wind-tunnel. It was his balance gauge and mathematical formulation for converting measured information into a full size airfoil with predictable performance. " It has been known that "Wings with cambered airfoil are unstable but perform the best by tests" regardless of any mathematical conclusion. A complete analyses w/angle of attack will need Reynolds, Bernoulli, Newton & Calculus.
@Verdelufe Or is it that you just can't stand the idea that two common men, from humble beginnings, could just happen to be smarter than all those who believed they were, above others, due to their education and the wealthy families they just happened to be from and the social station they were in. On 8Aug1908 at LeMans, Leon Delagrange said it best: (direct quote) "..he has beaten us, Monsieur Wright has beaten us all, I am humbled by his true knowledge and understanding of this endeavor!"
@Verdelufe So, you say the Wrights were evil, why is that? Is it because they refused to accept the assumptions of those before them, that they refused to rely on WAGing for their research or because they spent years working on a concept that just happened to be opposed to all their peers, proving they were right all along? They, in a true scientific approach to a highly technical and totally misunderstood problem, developed the original basis of a technology through tedious emperical testing?
@Verdelufe Re-read the Wright's original patent, their patent is NOT for a glider and it is NOT for wingwarping, why don't you open your eyes and brain and read the patent! You say it was unfair and whatever, but you can't argue the fact that 37 different courts and judges in 5 different countries say you are WRONG my friend. The Wrights encouraged others to use their technology, it was to their benefit, just pay for it that was all, it wasn't like others like Dumont couldn't afford it you know.
@Verdelufe After they got their patent, they told everyone interested they could use their technology, no problem, the Wrights were not interested in flying, they were engineer/scientists that only wanted to work in the background developing new ideas. All they asked is if you wanted your machine to work and you wanted to fly, maybe set records or you wanted to design new airplanes to sell, fine, just pay the Wrights the minimal royalty fee for the use of their work and go ahead.
@Verdelufe I suggest you read the original USP #821,393, Section 3, lines 45-100 my friend, Wilbu was the first to even consider the concept of Inherent Instability and their development of the control system to fly an HTA (soaring or powered) in this fashion was completely the opposite of all other experimenters of that era. Just because they thought of it first, tested it, then built the world's first successful flying machine is just the way it is.
Wright brothers first attempt to register their P failed, then they hired an attorney to go around the bush. Their patent finally registered said Flying Machine with or without motor,Ailerons of any kind that might be created based on their wing warping theory. That was evil and that is why they lost the admiration of many, even americans. That was crystal clear that their goal was their pockets, not Dumont, usually the rich do not work hard with their own hands HE WAS SPECIAL, you think not.
@Verdelufe Dumont entered his last Demoiselle (M22), but it never got past the 2nd day's qualifying events, as his machine was way too slow (almost 10 mph slower than the top 19 qualifiers), but Dumont's main problem was that he was just too inexperienced with powered HTAs and he couldn't handle his machine. Wilbur Wright and Louis Bleriot had modified Dumont's machine back in January for him, but Dumont still failed to understand the difference between "I Instability" and "I Stability" flight.
@Verdelufe Earlier I was telling you about what happened at the Reims Air Meeting in 1909, when the final round of the event for the Gordon Bennett Trophy was a three way battle between Curtiss, Levbvre, and Bleriot. Curtiss and Levbvre were flying biplanes, both of which had airfoils that had been designed and developed on Wi
We Brazilians understand, The airplane is the most invention of the world, so no wonder by the desperation of American authorship...
fxmcloud 4 days ago
Com catapulta até pedra voa!!! Santos Dumont Pai da aviação!!
marcelocasarin 1 month ago
@jotathenoble The Wrights didn't like flying as Wilbur was only interested in the technical aspects of aircraft design (not configuration, but airfoil performance and control handling). After Wilbur demonstrated the world's first airplane in France (1908), the Wrights received over 35 awards (mostly engineering) from 8 different countries, not including Wilbur's nomination for a Nobel. They also received 15 engineering docurates (UofMunich, MIT, Yale, Harvard, UofParis, London University, etc.)
BearFlight 2 months ago
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@BearFlight I won't argue with you, you won't ever get my point.
jotathenoble 2 months ago
Who invented the television? Who invented the internet?
Almost every invention is collective. The Wright brothers contributed much to aviation and aircraft control, as well as Santos Dumond.
The Writghts build a glider and put an engine. When the glider became autoproper is uncertain. Otto Lilienthal had done 2000 controllable glider flights between 1891 and 1896.
Dumond has shown that you can take off without launchers or track.
They, like many others, are heroes of aviation.
Maracangaia1 3 months ago
@Maracangaia1 were the wisest words I ever heard on this matter, muito obrigado !!
Daniel260289 2 months ago
@Maracangaia1 You make a good point about "who" invented the television or "who" invented the internet, but that doesn't apply to the airplane. Who was the original developers of the technology for accurately predicting airfoil performance and perfecting the concept of "Inherent Instability" allowing others to design successful flyable airplanes is very clear and precise and without question the Wrights. They developed ALL of the most important base line technology almost entirely on their own.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@Maracangaia1 What you may not know or realize, but the Wrights worked in private (not secret) to protect their technology nothing more. There had been a number of individuals that had gotten airborne for a short distance before them, but until 8Aug1908, no one in Europe had ever seen someone takeoff and actually "fly" in a machine that was under the full control of the operator, until Wilbur did that day at LeMans, France.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@Maracangaia1 My statements concerning the Wright brothers is NOT one of personal opinion or anything of the sort. It is an ABSOLUTE proveable certainty, end of story. Everything the Wrights did, as engineers, was well documented and duly registered with a variety of scientific organizations. Their US Patent #821,393 issued on 22May1906 was and is the "Grandfather" patent for the airplane (soaring or dynamic).
BearFlight 2 months ago
@BearFlight Stop commenting. Get the facts right before looking like a patriot freak.
BARUNIZ 6 days ago
@BARUNIZ Actually, my facts are correct my friend. Santos Dumont, of all the active members of the ACdeF during the years 1905 through 1910, was the least active and the least successful. The first "actual" flight of an airplane, as we know them today occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France with Wilbur Wright at the controls of his Flyer III "A". 3 Weeks following his brother, Orville started with the 2nd Flyer III "A" over in the USA. Dumont's 1st first flight was on 13Feb1910.
BearFlight 5 days ago
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@BARUNIZ Actually, my facts are correct my friend. Santos Dumont, of all the active members of the ACdeF during the years 1905 through 1910, was the least active and the least successful. The first "actual" flight of an airplane, as we know them today occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France with Wilbur Wright at the controls of his Flyer III "A". 3 Weeks following his brother, Orville started with the 2nd Flyer III "A" over in the USA. Dumont's 1st first flight was on 13Feb1910.
BearFlight 5 days ago
who are those "wright brothers"?
imtv 4 months ago
@imtv They made a GLIDER, but the North Americans think that it was a plane. So now they THINK that they are badasses.
jotathenoble 4 months ago
@jotathenoble But who Frances recognize as the first to fly? as far as I know Dumond is considered the first by France, and that is what really matters.
imtv 4 months ago
@imtv Not only France, baiscly the whole world consideres Dumont, only the americans think that was the brothers wright
jotathenoble 4 months ago
@jotathenoble For anyone to continue to consider that Santos Dumont was somehow connected to the development of the airplane, they are disgracing the memory of those that were not only involved, but in several cases lost their lives in the process. The ONLY successful aviators in France during 1907, were Delagrange, Farman, Pelterie, Bleriot, Viula, Ferber, and de Pischoff. Paris newspapers (Le Matin, Le Journal, NY Herald Paris etc) only list Dumont's failures in 1907, Dumont quit until 1909.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@jotathenoble OFFICIALLY, only the FAI can record aviation flights for the purpose of "records". The FAI lists the first flight (taking off from level ground, unassisted) as Clement Ader (FR) on 14Oct1897 for 300m. The first flight (level ground unassisted) of a powered aircraft demonstrating sustained and controlled flight was Orville Wright on 17Dec1903, The FAI also states the first circle flown (dynamic) was Wilbur Wright on 20Sept1904 (4 turns covering 4.43 km).
BearFlight 2 months ago
@jotathenoble The first "aircraft" actually designed by Dumont was his little Model 15 biplane and in Feb1907, on his first attempt at flight, his M15 was so poorly designed and constructed, it simply fell apart when he tried to taxi. In April (07), Dumont tried again with the 14bis, but after 2 days of trying he could nothing but bounce across the ground. Same with his M17 biplane and his 1st mono-wing M18 (copied from Bleriot's TypeIII MWing and later, in 1909, called the "Demosielle").
BearFlight 2 months ago
@jotathenoble The Wrights (specifically Wilbur) spent 6 years working on all aspects of the HTA and in that time (after building 7 progressively advanced prototypes) developed the world's first practical airplane and the first "true" flight of an airplane in Europe, as we know them today, occurred on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France. The Wright's invented the first "high efficiency" propeller, developed the foundation for Aeronautical Engineering, then developed and patented the 3-axis control system.
BearFlight 2 months ago
@jotathenoble There is lots of video of Wilbur demonstrating their technology in France from 1908. The biplane Wilbur is using (Wright Flyer III "A") is nothing other than the platform they used to demonstrate their technology. The Wrights DID NOT build upon others, as Wilbur was the first to understand the inter-relationship of CoL/CoD, and how aspect ratio/cord-line camber effected either (CoL/CoD), all in relation to airfoil performance predictability.
BearFlight 2 months ago
Father Santos Dumont aviation *****
TiconofubaKKK 5 months ago 9
wow. lots of experts below me. ask anyone who isn't retarded who made the first airplane and they will all give you the same answer.
taterfamine 5 months ago
all the people here that think the wrights made the first plane are normal
liamtobyaus 5 months ago
@liamtobyaus All the people here that thing the Wrights made the first plane are not normal , they are just brainwashed Americans
Verdelufe 4 months ago
@Verdelufe I'm not an American, but regardless, try all you might, you can't change history. Soon a new book called from the "From The Ground Up" will be released and its going to change everything. Based on Era official records, letters, newspaper accounts, official documents, etc. etc. etc.. Santos Dumont had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the airplane. Dumont's first "actual" flight didn't occur until 13Feb1909 and then only after Bleriot and Wilbur Wright fixed his M19 for him.
BearFlight 2 months ago
the wright brothers used wing warping since 1899, in their first kites. and they patented it before 1906, and the u.s. court ruled that they had been copied by dumont. yes, i didnt give him a capital because he dosent deserve it. how old are you by the way? adult or kid?
liamtobyaus 5 months ago
@liamtobyaus actually Wilbur Wright copied the wing-warping from Edson F. Gallaudet . Take a look to his hydro-bike of 1898 and the wright wing-warping kite of 1899
vlatu 5 months ago
@liamtobyaus "I didn't give him a capital because he doesn't deserve it" what a sadly immature way of trying to disparage. Grow up a little?
luisc4444 2 months ago
dumont does deserve merits, it just the wrights made the first fight, and HE copied their wing warping ideas.
liamtobyaus 5 months ago
Comment removed
luifever 5 months ago
@liamtobyaus First off Dumont and not dumont, he deserves right ? Second you have to read more about aviation you are not ripe yet. No major aviation pioneer that I am aware used wing warping, they used ailerons and didn't have any idea there was a patent from WB that covers any kind of control movement in the air, in other words they had a patent for any control in the air, like God, the space is mine.That was an obstacle for advancement, later that patent was dropped. Did you understand ?
Verdelufe 5 months ago
@liamtobyaus you are aware that this plane does NOT use wing warping right? Dumont borrowed nothing from the bros in making the 14 bis.
luisc4444 4 months ago
@luisc4444 Santos Dumont DID NOT design the 14bis, Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie did and the 14bis was "officially" called a "Type du Wright" by the Aero Club de France in 1906. Voisin/Pelterie "officially" stated the 14bis design was a cross between the Wright's 1902 glider and one of L.Hargrave's box kites. In Jan1907, Dumont LIED to a Paris newspaper report (falsely claiming he had designed the 14bis) and was very nearly ejected from the ACdeF for his missconduct.
BearFlight 2 months ago
It does not matter who flew before Nov 12, 1906. The official first flight by a HTA
flying machine was 14 Bis by Dumont PERIOD !!! That was at Bagatelli France a super power at that time. It does not matter how many helped to have a final product like we have today. Don't try to take away the merits the Dumont deserves.
Verdelufe 6 months ago
The first "airplane", ok, fine, but after Hiram Maxim's flight with the Aerodrome in 1894, Vuia's flight in his monoplane in march 1906, The Wright brother's flights in their Flyers in 1903, 1904, 1905 and 1906. You are probably right in claiming that it was the first flight in something called an "airplane", but Dumont was not the first to fly, not even the first to fly in Europe, but probably the first Brazilian to fly.
sablatnic 6 months ago
The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) recognizes the Santos Dumont as the patron of aviation... =)
nathanmdo 6 months ago
Everything you claiming about WB are red roses. But these facts will remain:
1) Did not participate for the Prize of 1906 that Dumont won after had a patent
2) Showed a picture as the first to fly a machine going down a sand dune.
3) Never improved the design of the Flyer only in 1911 start copying Europeans.
4) Never eliminate the biplane knowing all about performance.
5) Refuse to compete in crossing the English Channel if their Flyer was the best.
6) Their 1903 Replica never flew.
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe oh shut it. The Wright Flyer flew in 1903. The proof is in the details. They could have only have achieved what they had by the time they made their achievements public without many years of experimentation. Everyone knows this and you are ridiculous for somehow implying that they copied anyone. Unlike the aristocrats of Europe who took up aviation, the Wright brothers were not wealthy and saw the airplane as a business which is why they were secretive about their technology.
fvgdfbdokd 6 months ago
@Verdelufe Europe saw the world's first airplane actually fly on 8Aug1908 (with Wilbur flying) and then North America on 3Sept1908 (Orville at the controls). The Wrights had flown before that, but those flights (157 total test flights) were engineering developmental test flights only, as the Wrights worked through 7 test mules before they built their first production "practical" airplanes (Flyer III "A"), the first was built in the spring of 1907 and serial no. 2 was built in June-July of 1908.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe You have harped at me for claiming the Wrights did this and the Wrights did that, well....., you want to know why I keep harping on it? Its because its the truth, sorry! The accomplishments of the Wrights, from their being the 1st to establish the concept of "Inherent Instability", then developing the 1st accurate method to predict airfoil performance, then designing the world's 1st propeller, and finally patenting the world's 1st 3-axis control system is all well documented.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe I say "last" propeller as the Wright's original propellers and subsequent propellers have all been found to have been 86% efficient and here we are 100 years later, with the advantage of CAD systems and the advanced form of airfoil calculation called Vector Analysis and there has been NO improvement made over the Wrights original designs. By searching through photos of their machines, with different hp ratings and you'll note each have propellers re-calibrated to the engine used.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Probably of more interest, is to read through the lift/drift calculations for their propeller designs, written in Wilbur's own hand writing in the spring of 1903. WW wrote to several groups, mostly maritime sources for information on prop calculations, but nothing existed, even Chanute wrote to WW claiming it wasn't necessary. Fortunately, the Wrights understood aerodynamics far beyond Chanute and after 3 months of testing and calculations, they had the world's 1st and last propeller.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The Wrights developed a stack of journals to record the data, recorded from each of the over 200 different airfoil shapes and then through a series of calculations, math formulas based on basic triginometry values and they could, from this test data, tell you how a given shape would perform at a low speed. (you can view these journals on the net) With their full size 1902 glider, Orville designed a unique method of where they could change their airfoil cam equally from top to bottom.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe From there, Wilbur and Orville began the tedious task of measuring an airfoil at a set AoA, calculate its performance value, then increase the AoA by 3°, then do it all over again, increase the AoA by 3° and do it again, and again and again. Then shape a new airfoil and start the whole process over, again and again, then re-shape a new airfoil and test it again and again, for hours and hours everyday for 3 months. After testing over 200 airfoils, they chose 2 for their next glider.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Wilbur realized that the forces working on an airfoil moving through the air were at 90° angles to each other, so he developed the formula of sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k), which was only a start, first he had to re-calculate the true value of "k", which Smeathon had stated was 0.0054, but Wilbur had designed "2" balance scales for his wind tunnel that worked 90° to each other, so it was a pretty simple thing to calculate the true value of "k" to be 0.0033.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe A month later, Chanute asked Wilbur to speak at the Western Society of Engineers on his experiments and Wilbur did so on 18Sept1901, but not until after he performed a couple of experiments with a little wind tunnel his mechanic Charlie Taylor built for him. Wilbur made 4 little 6"² metal wings, but all 4 had different cambers and different aspect ratios and his initial test for lift and drift showed they were all different. Like a lightbulb, Wilbur realized everyone's error at once.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The following year, still using Lilienthal's lift tables, Wilbur designed a new glider, he increased the wing area from 165² ft to 290² ft, but when they tethered it in the wind, his scales read the exact lift numbers as the 1900 glider? Wilbur was confounded and confused. Chanute showed up at Kitty Hawk and noted that their 1901 glider actually performed better than any in history and claimed Lilienthal's tables were 100%, but Wilbur was perplexed as to why the numbers were wrong?
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Wilbur had done something no one before had done. He, based on Chanute's suggestion, used Lilienthal's published lift tables to design the wings on his first glider (1900), but when his little glider failed to work as expected, Wilbur walked over to Kitty Hawk and bought a couple of spring scales, tethered them to his little glider an flew like a kite in the wind. When he read the scales, his "actual" lift was only 30% of what Lilienthal's tables said they should be?
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe By the way, Smeathon's factor of 0.0054 for CoP was not the formula for determining lift, it is simply a conversion number for converting measured CoP from a small test airfoil into a predetermined airfoil "size" for your intended application. Lilienthal's mistake was that he "assumed" (as did Cayley and Phillips) that "drift" was linear and was more based on AoA than anything. You can see this when you study Lilienthal's Polar Scale. Wilbur discovered something all together different
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Actually, you're wrong about everyone was flying in Europe. No one had flown until Wilbur Wright started his demonstration flights on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, France. Yes, there had been a number of individuals that had managed to power themselves across the ground for a short distance, but nobody had flown as we today know flight. Of the ACdeF members, Delagrange and Farman were far and away the most successful, but none of them could actually demonstrate sustained or controlled flight.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The reason Orville's machine had those specifications applied (short cord and span) was because they had increased Orville's Flyer III "A" camber by 1 point, but they reduced the wing area by that amount to increase their speed by 7 mph. One of the specifications required of the US Signal Corp was that the machine had to successful demonstrate it could maintain a min 40 mph over an oval course, in all wind conditions up to 30mph. Orville's machine was precisely 7mph faster than Wil's.
BearFlight 7 months ago
Why the WB would receive the Nobel Prize if everybody was flying, and they made no peace only war with other aviators Why? Where is it? I know Al Gore & Yasset Arafat received and Thomas Edison did not. Weird. Again Lilienthal took formulas from Smeaton. I want to know where in a book or reference says that all the details of Lift forces, airfoil performance and all the variables pertaining to aerodynamics was WB discoveries with their own mathematical researchs, if you prove it. IT IS THE END.
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The Wright's propellers should tell you something about the Wrights, but to further show you, do you know the difference between the Wright Flyer III "A" Wilbur flew at LeMans (FR) in 1908 and the Wright Flyer III "A" Orville flew at Ft Myer (USA) a month later? Everyone always says they were identical machines, but they weren't. Orville's machine had a 3" shorter cord-line and a 6" shorter span, do you know why?
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe After reading through that, then you can next start with the data base at the Wright State University and then move over to the United States National Archives, where over 30,000 individuals papers from the Wrights are stored. Also of great interest to you would be Fred C. Kelly's (a close friend of Orville's) book "Miracle at Kitty Hawk" which chronicles the letters written by and to the Wrights beginning in 1890. Most included letters are between Wilbur and Octave Chanute.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe You are absolutely correct on one thing, every single aviation pioneer up until 1908, had no understanding of the relationship of CoL to CoD ratio, but Wilbur, along with his brother and Dr. George Spratt had done extensive testing in this area and Wilbur's application of his formulas were within 3% accuracy of modern aerodynamics using "Vector Analysis" and CAD systems. Just look what they did with their 1911 glider! From a 30m high sand dune, Orville stayed aloft for 9m 45sec.
BearFlight 7 months ago
I had enough of WB being the first in everything regarding aviation. So Chanute was not their mentor,they found out about the Smeaton formula by their own.Only in 1915 NACA( then NASA) started making wind tunnel test extensively to come to a predictable performance with wings performance. It is so complex you have angle of attack viscosity of liquids(air) Reynolds Numbers never stop, I have no idea where you got all this about WB being the first, can you tell me where to consult to see that.
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Start by first reading Lilienthal's science book "Birdflight as the Basis of Aviation". Then take note of Lilienthal's "polar lfit scale" and his published lift tables (Lilienthal mistakenly used Smeathon's CoP factor of 0.0054 which was over 40% in error). Once you begin to understand that, then read Wilbur Wright's paper called "Some Aeronautical Experiments", dated 18Sept1901. This was the text of his presentation to the Western Society of Engineers on that date. There's more.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Why do you think the Wrights received 15 honorary docurates in engineering from universities around the world (included MIT in America and the University of Munich in Germany, among several others) and Wilbur was nominated for the Nobel prize in engineering, by the Science Institute of France, in 1909?
Wilbur's Nobel prize nomination was primarily for his work in aerodynamic research by the way, not for his patents.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Testing here in England, show that Dumont's 14bis propeller was only 19% efficient, meaning only 9.5 hp from his 50 hp engine was converted into thrust, while the Wright's first test platform (Flyer I) only had a 12.5 hp engine, but their propellers were so efficient, 10.4 hp was converted into thrust. The Wright's orginal Flyer I they flew on 17Dec1903 produced more thrust than Dumont's 14bis with an engine that had 4 times the power. Direct power Flyer I = 135lbs, 14bis=92lbs.
BearFlight 7 months ago
Every major aviation pioneer was flying unaware of CoL & CoD even the WB did not apply airfoil performance on their Flyer, their patent focus was for controls specially wing warping. I would be glad to give credit to WB for their contribution to determine airfoil performance but first you have to accept that Dumont was the officially first to fly and not WB even if he made a turn or not, and he also contributed to HTA, even if was not in a mathmatical manner, like many others pioneers. Deal ?
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Sorry my friend, you are COMPLETELY wrong, not only did the Wrights originate the foundation for all aerodynamic research, Wilbur published his findings on aerodynamics as an official science paper in 1902, world wide. That is established scientific fact. Their patents were for completely unrelated engineering and application design, namely, their Patent #821,393 was for the cause & effect of a 3-axis control system for a flying machine based on "Inherent Instability".
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The Wrights so understood the dynamics behind airfoil design, the original propellers they used on Flyer I have been tested several times, both over in America at the AMES reseach center wind tunnels (NASA) and by two different advanced engineering groups in Europe and those original propellers were found to be 86% efficient at power to thrust conversion. There has been no improvement on that in over one hundred years. Modern props on a typical turboprop are only 83%-86% efficient.
BearFlight 7 months ago
I tried to stay away from the complexity of aerodynamics but you insist on it. Another monster physicist from the 1700's John Smeaton developed the equation for LIFT, came with his K constant after many wind tunnel test but WB made more wind tunnels tests than Smeaton then K was changed from 0.005 to 0.0033 but the WB had no idea why the V is squared in the equation. Modern LIFT equation is based on Bernoulli & Third Law of Newton depending on many factors. WB were not monsters like those guys.
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Actually you're totally wrong. Smeathon's CoP of factor of "k" was 0.0054 and that was established by him in 1759 to calculate the torque applied to a shaft attached to a windmill or waterwheel. Lilienthal used this value of "k" for his lift tables in 1891. They were both wrong. Wilbur Wright corrected the value of "k" to its actual value of 0.0033 in 1901 and he published his findings at the time. Modern Vector Analysis has corrected "k" to a more accurate 0.00329 for lowspeed wings.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe In 1902, Wilbur published his new formula of sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k) in 1902 as an official scientific paper and it would have been rather difficult to have done that without knowing that "V" equalled the velocity of air flow over an airfoil. Want to know just how good the Wrights were with understanding aerodynamics? Check out what they did at KH in 1911 with an experimental glider of theirs.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe In the summer of 1911, Orville flew an experimental glider that Wilbur had designed. The purpose of the experiment was to test a new idea on airfoil design of theirs. Their 1911 glider had the world's first laminer flow wings with high root to tip taper. The aspect ratio of their wings was 10.3. Orville recorded one flight with an endurance of 9m 46sec, which included 3 complete circles starting from a 30m high sand dune. That record stood for over 10 years by the way.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe At the very least, if you're going to quote something from history, you had better get your facts straight. John Smeathon was an 18th century (UK) engineer that NEVER once used a wind tunnel. He simply applied some basic math formulas allowing a mill owner (wind or water) to decide on paddle size. His CoP factor was useless for calculating lift of an airfoil. There were several people in the late 19th century that used a wind tunnel, but the Wrights were the first to use it correctly.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The Wrights revolutionized the science of aerodynamics. Wilbur's conceptual & original idea on "Inherent Instability" led to them developing the world's first 3-axis control system, for which the Wright's were issued the USPatent #821,393 where lines 45-100 section 3 relate to the cause and effect of lateral control. There were 37 different courts in 5 differents countries that also supported and found in the Wright's favor, regardless of your baseless claims, even after a 100 years.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Following the Wright's extraordinary flight demonstrations in 1908, the Wright's were given 15 honorary PhDs in science and engineering from universities around the world, including MIT in the USA and the University of Munich in Germany and the Science Institute of France nominated Wilbur for the 1909 Nobel prize for advanced engineering, but Wilbur asked they remove his name because the nomination failed to recognize his brother Orville and his friend and collaborator, Dr. Spratt.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe I just noticed you claim "modern lift equation is based on Bernoulli & 3rd Law of Newton depending on many factors." Well, you're right, but you STILL DON'T GET IT! The Wrights didn't discover the process of "how" lift is generated, Wilbur developed the 1st "accurate" method to measure/calculate the effect of air over an airfoil. With their WT results & original math formulas, you could design a full size airfoil with predictable performance, proven to be within a 3%+/- window.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe All of you Dumonters are arguing something you cannot win. Every aeronautical and aerospace engineer in the world can tell exactly who was first to not only conceive of the idea of how the CoL relates to the CoD, but who developed the orginal math formulas for determining airfoil performance based on the effect that camber, camber to cord-line ratio, and an airfoil's aspect ratio and that, with absolutely NO QUESTION, was Wilbur Wright. Everything Wilbur discovered was documented.
BearFlight 7 months ago
It did not matter then any ratio it was trial and error and could be canvas or paper
it did not matter then. If anyone had enough LIFT to overcome WEIGHT and enough THRUST to overcome DRAG that is it they would fly, they were not worry about making turns then, later they start developing controls but needed strong planes. WB made the Flyer strong enough to withstand strong winds because they're primary gliders then themselves had a peculiar own way to maneuver it
like no one else very well.
Verdelufe 7 months ago
@Verdelufe See, you're suffering from the same problems that Dumont, Delagrange, Farman, and all the others had. They just didn't know what to do. Their biggest mistake was they all ignored the obvious, forget about an engine, start with a glider first so you can figure it out, like the Wrights did, then add an engine once you're ready. Why do you think it seemed that the Wrights could fly right from the beginning (8Aug1908) while no one else could????
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe You shape a wing a specific way, with known camber, a known aspect ratio, and a known camber to cord-line ratio, it will produce a predictable CoL to CoD ratio, predetermined for whatever performance you're looking for and Wilbur Wright was the first to discover and establish that science. THE SCIENCE OF AERODYNAMICS IS AN ABSOLUTE, YOU CANNOT ARGUE IT AND IT IS HISTORICALLY BEYOND QUESTION THAT WILBUR WRIGHT WAS THE FIRST TO DISCOVER AND ESTABLISH THE FOUNDATION OF THAT SCIENCE!!!!!
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe Strangley, you have a very peverted idea of just what happened back then, and its even more odd how you have some idea or belief that Santos Dumont had anything to do with it. Do you know how many different aircraft were designed between 1906 and 1909? No one really knows the actual no., but I have photos of 242 different powered aircraft, by different I mean totally different. Oh, and those 242 we know about, that doesn't count anything the Wrights had nor does it count orthinopters.
BearFlight 7 months ago
You make a big deal about the airfoil's aspect ratio. Just by looking the shape of a wing without any calculation anybody can guess which wing will perform better.
a short length and wide width certainly will perform badly just by looking the shape of it. With or without Wrights tunnel trials everything would fall in place no matter what. It is a continuous work that I said before had been worked up to get a better performance up to this day and scientists to this day still analyse variables.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Thanks for making my point. The Wrights also discovered that using WAG to design an airfoil simply didn't work, their first two gliders proved that and Wilbur discovered that Lilienthal's lift charts were wrong. What he then developed was an accurate method to measure an airfoil's CoL & CoD and then you could also measure the effect of camber, cord-line camber ratio, and aspect ratio. With Wil's new math formula you could then design a full size airfoil with predictable performance.
BearFlight 7 months ago
Thanks for the, APPARENTLY SO, meaning the french people are ignorant laypersons like myself. Do not keep saying that I said Dumont invented the plane, I never said that, what I always said was that he was the first officially PERIOD. Now do not tell me Wrights did everything and nobody else count. You just says nice things of accomplishemt about Gliders Wrights and want to take away from Dumont accomplishments witnessed by the French people who put his face in 1973 in a post stamp who deserved.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Aspect ratio is critical as it relates to airfoil performance. The Wright's 1900/1901 gliders had a wing area of 165sqft and 290sqft respectfully, with an aspect ratio of 3.5 for the 1900 glider and 3.0 for the 1901. Their 1900 glider actually performed better than their 1901. After a winter of wind tunnel testing, their 1902 glider's airfoil no.'s were 305sqft area but had an aspect ratio of 6.5 and it produced 97% of lift prediction, and 3.7 times the lift of their 1901 glider.
BearFlight 7 months ago
@Verdelufe The gang of four could only fly in calm wind because they had no control system, but after Wilbur arrived and started demonstrating his machine, he could fly in wind as high as 48kph, perform complete circles and then safely land, which he did on numerous occasions. On 31Dec1908, Wilbur flew large circles (4 km diameter circles) over a field near LeMans, all during a wind and freezing rain storm, with recorded gusts as high as 60kph. He stayed up for 2h18m, but the cold got to him.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Do you know what problems the Aero Club (France) members were having with their machines in 1907 and 1908? I'm talking about Delagrange, Pelterie, Bleriot, & Farman (Dumont failed after trying 4 different machines of his during 1907, so he just gave up and went back to his No. 16 airship and didn't try to fly an HTA again until 1909). The gang of four (listed already) were each having some success, but only in the most calm of wind, as even 5-7kph would ground them, did you know that?
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Its nice to have heroes and if you were to say, Santos Dumont was a real gentleman and treated all he knew as equals, well, that's an opinion and from all I've read its probably accurate, but I can't argue that one way or another because I didn't know the man. You try tell me that Dumont invented the airplane and was the first to fly, well, that's something totally different. I'm pragmatic about my study of the technology of the first airplanes and there it was all Wilbur Wright.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Wilbur Wright, was not only the first to understand the interrelationship of the Coefficient of Lift and the Coefficient of Drag and how airfoil camber, the ratio of camber to cordline, and an airfoil's aspect ratio effect performance, he was the first to develop an accurate method of measuring a test wing in a wind tunnel and he wrote a new series of math formulas so you convert your readings into a full size wing. His science provided for +-2% accuracy of predicted wing performance.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe All I'm trying to do is get you to think for yourself and quit just blindly following what someone has told you. Peformance of an airfoil, as used on a low speed aircraft (↓250kts), is an exact science, most of which is known in total today. Guess what, at the turn of the century, no one understood it, some thought a flat wing was acceptable (like Dumont) while the majority thought a curved wing was better, but in reality they were all wrong. Trail & error was the best they could do.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe I keep repeating myself because you're either naive, fanatically nationalistic, or you just don't like the idea that an American beat the entire world by not only having developed the world's first practical and flyable airplane, they patented the most important part, the control system. After 1906, if you wanted to design an airplane and fly, successfully, you could have done it, no problem, but if you did want to fly, then you had to pay a royalty to the inventors first.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 4: ..devise the apparatus by which it has been reduced to successful practice of flight. Your discovery of Lilienthal's errors, and their correction as you have listed as the Wright lift tables will remain in the minds of all who fly from this day. I hope upon my return from Europe that we will be able to resume our former relations." (if you're curious, Chanute died before he and Wilbur could get together)
BearFlight 8 months ago
You always write what you read in a book and never stops like a machinegun from a Kamikasi, with all due respect you sound like a NUT because you never answer the major question, always dodge them, and only answer the easy ones that suits you, and EXTREMELY REPEATITIVE. I am going to ask again is the french people ignorant laypersons like myself.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe To answer your question, about the French, apparantly so, but why don't you read what the French people had to say after seeing Wilbur fly at LeMans in 1908? Why don't you check that out? Read the quote that the editor of L'Aerophile magazine (official magazine of the Aero Club de France) , Georges Besancon, had to say about Wilbur Wright after his first demo flight on 8Aug1908 at LeMans. Don't believe me, go look it up for yourself.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 3: ..made mountains out of mole hills. I am sure that in my own case there has never been a mole hill of disparagement of your tremendous achievements of claim that I am entitled to even a small part of credit for what you have done. Whatever other impressions have got aboard originated with persons who knew of our intimate relations or others who may have felt jealousy at your renowned success. Hopefully, you and Orville will arise, deservedly, as the first in history to
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 2: Chanute continues in his 14May1910 letter: "....I have always written and spoken of you as the original investigators and worthy of the highest praise for what you have given me and the world. How much I may have been of help I am afraid has been so little I fear I have only been a hindrance to your experiments and discoveries...I have never made any claims to the opposite. I gave no credence to the newspapers...being aware how newspaper reporters
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 1: You also stated that Wilbur Wright was just a student of Octave Chanute, but I suggest you read the letters from Chanute to Wilbur dated: 23Jan1910 and 14May1910. It seems that Octave Chanute himself says YOU ARE WRONG. In the second letter, Chanute said and I quote: "I have never given out the impression, either in writing or in speech that you had taken up aeronautics at my instance or were, as you put it, pupils of mine!.....
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Sorry, but you still can't argue the facts. The question of rather Dumont had anything to do with the HTA is not in question, as the science and engineering of a working airplane is now fully understood. We have the technology (CAD) to use photo/film of the early pioneer's aircraft and we can demonstrate why different individuals failed to fly, but with Dumont's machines we've never needed to use that technology, as causal observation of his machines proves why they all failed.
BearFlight 8 months ago
How can you take 4 decades of laypersons like myself claiming irrational idea that Dumont has something to do with HTA. Almost 4 decades ago the french people released a stamp in 1973 with Dumont face, Dirigible, 14 Bis & Demoiselle on it. You missed that one. That is where FAI is, I ask you now, are the french people ignorant laypersons like myself.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe You keep stating that Dumont never bothered with "patents", which is true, but do you know why? The reason Dumont never bothered with any patents was because he NEVER developed anything associated with the airplane that he could have considered to have patented, that's why! You even once claimed Dumont was a genius for his Demoiselle, but it was just a copy of his buddy's (Bleriot) little mono-wing from several months before anyone saw the Demoiselle. Bleriot's machine was better.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe If you want to know what my agenda is, well, I have spent the last 10 years as a student of aviation history, I want to know the "truth" of how the airplane was invented. But, for 4 decades I've heard laypersons, like yourself, claim this irrational and erroneous idea or concept that somehow Dumont had anything to do with the invention of the airplane. Dumont had absolutely NOTHING to do with the invention of the airplane and the first time he flew wasn't until 13Feb1909, not before.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe After dozens of attempts at flight, powered or otherwise, made before Wilbur's first demonstration flight on 8Aug1908 at LeMans, several people had struggled to get off the ground and the few that did, just couldn't stay there. A couple had managed to make a partial turn (Henri Farman was the only person to have actually completed a 360° turn, but he only did it once). Try as they might, they couldn't fly, then Wilbur showed the world what they had taken 9 years to develop on 8/8/08.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe The reality is that Dumont really had absolutely nothing to offer in the way of HTA flight, he wasn't first (we know of at least 11 people who had gotten off the ground with a powered machine before him, not counting the Wrights) and officially the FAI states that Clement Ader was first, but we aviation historians know it was actually the French experimenter Felix du Temple that was first in 1874. The first modern era glider flight was Sir Cayley of England in 1847.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe All of you Dumonters are all hung up on this idea of "who" flew first and how far they powered themselves across the ground crap, the Wright's discoveries WERE and NEVER have been about any of that. Wilbur Wright NEVER claimed he flew first, as he felt their early test flights were just that, tests only to work through the technical problems assoicated with practical and controlled flight of a heavier-than-air flying machine, something once developed they could sell for a profit.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe After Wilbur discovered the basic mistakes of everyone before them, more specifically, the interrelationship of CoL & CoD, they then could get back to developing Wilbur's idea on "Inherent Instability" and his lateral control idea. It took 3 years to get through the lift/drift problems first, then another 3 months of field testing to perfect their control system. Once their patents were secure in Europe and North America, they offered it and their lift tables to anyone who wished it.
BearFlight 8 months ago
All Wrights fans are arrogant, to deny Chanute as the mentor for the Wright brothers really shows what agenda you have. Chanute was PURE TRUE PIONEER in aviation
he was the one who encouraged everyone to work on a huge project that need the help of every mind, he did not seek patents nor hide any techinical information, he said, it all belong to the public, same vision like Dumont and others. Airfoil performance has been worked up even today. WHAT IS YOU POINT ???
WRIGHTS HAD A PATENT? WHAT'S?
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Octave Chanute was the one person encouraging everyone to share information, even Wilbur Wright appriecated him for that and said so many times, but the Wrights were competing against many forces over themselves, particularly Samuel Langley and Glenn Curtiss. When Wilbur discovered where everyone had failed to understand the dynamics involved with airfoil design, they offered to share that information as they saw fit.
BearFlight 8 months ago
The only thing that you trying to do is to save the Wrights by talking only on predict performance because they have nothing else, cheating with a picture and being a gliders experts. Already told you that up to this day the interpretation of lift force depends on many variables as scientists discuss it. Wrights never applied airfoil performance on their Flyer, it remained the same for years, first off they would eliminate biplane if they were brilliant reducing drag & weight.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe I find it kind of interesting that even after they cheated and designed a moderized replica of Dumont's 14bis, in the video above (the original was designed by Voisin-Pelterie) , and even after adding a light modern engine, an actual propeller, and even with lift producing airfoils the replica 14bis still can't fly!!! Kind of proves my point about Dumont doesn't it?
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe You mentioned that the Wright's Flyers as being just powered "gliders", well I've got news for you, "ALL" successful airplanes since the Wright Flyers are gliders if you shut the engine off! Do you know what happened to Dumont on 24Nov1907 when his engine quit on his M18? His machine just stopped in mid-air, dropped like a rock, and he crashed, luckily Dumont's injuries were minor. Wilbur purposely shut his engine off, LeMans (Flyer A), then performed figure-8 maneuvers to a landing.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe The Wright's understanding of aerodynamics was years ahead of anyone else and their work was NOT built upon the work of others. It was Wilbur's idea to measure his machine's actual lift, something that had never been done before, so Wilbur walked to Kitty Hawk, bought a pair of fish scales, then attached them to his 1900 glider, tethered in the wind of Kill Devil Hills. So when his glider's lift was less than 30% of Lilienthal's lift tables, he asked the scientific question of WHY?
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Chanute had no understanding of aerodynamics, he even suggested to Wilbur to try building an orthinopter as late as 1906 . Source: Chanute letter to Wilbur Wright, 15Oct1906; "...there are many shapes of birds, each flying after a system of their own....I cheerfully acknowledge that I have little idea of how difficult the flying problem really is and that its solution is beyond my powers, but not yours Wil....maybe flapping wings may work too do you think this possible?"
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Chanute was an accomplished "civil" engineer and understood engineering as it applied to mechanical devices and the structural strength of the railroad bridges he had designed&built in his lifetime, but aerodynamics was something he didn't even have the most basic understanding of. Regardless that many had experimented during the 19th century on the subject, Wilbur Wright was the first to finally develop an accurate and useable method for measuring and predicting airfoil performance.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Because of Wilbur's balance scale, he could shape a small model airfoil of 6in², measure its pressure and then rotate it 90°, retest it with his second balance scale, then with the application of a basic triginometry formula (formulated by Wilbur) produce a working number. Wilbur corrected Lilienthal's "CoP=SV²kCL" to "sinθ1=SV²kCL/(SV²kCD)+(SV²k)" (Wil corrected the CoP facter of k=0.0054 to k=0.0033). This translated into 97% accuracy of lift prediction to a full size airfoil.
BearFlight 8 months ago
Issac Newton, Daniel Bernoulli were already pretty advance for the 17th centuries.
Are you saying that trigonometry of the Wrights were the solution for the lift problem, you might be kidding me. It is hard for you to accept that Chanute who made the brothers as far as thinking. Do not forget that they kept their Flyer stale for many years, if they had an extraordinary brilliance they should had done something about it, truth they registered a Glider in 1904 then attorney turned to plane 1906.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Actually, Chanute offered nothing to the Wrights, at least as far as what Wilbur Wright discovered in his wind tunnel in 1901/1902. I have copies of the letters between Wilbur and Chanute from that time and Chanute simply couldn't comprehend the details of the Wright's discovery. It was Wilbur's understanding of the relationship (cause&effect) between the CoL&CoD based from his measurements made with his small balance scale he designed, which revolutionized advanced aerodynamics.
BearFlight 8 months ago
FAI conceded recently the world record to an Ultra Light called CEA-308 that flies with a total of 300Kg including Plane + Fuel+ Refig. Water + Pilot Weight from a University in Brazil to see Google " bol1288 " Do not forget that Embraer sells Exec. Jets to Canada & USA - Brazil has tradition in building planes Dumont is not a lone figure.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe With an extraordinary act of brillance, Wilbur Wright realized that an airfoil's camber, aspect ratio, and camber-cordline ratio, as well as AoA, would all have an effect on the Coefficient of Lift. Until that moment, no one, let me repeat that NOT ONE SINGLE SCIENTIST or ENGINEER had ever even considered that possibility. Wilbur also convieved of the idea that the forces acted in a 90° angle to each other, which allowed him to use basic triginometry to develop accurate lift tables.
BearFlight 8 months ago
Wright Brothers Part 1 -5 Animated clips: To make Alberto Santos Dumont to look like a sinister Captain Hook with a very dark skin is laughble, how racist and ridiculous way to depict Dumont, He went to the best school in Paris to study Science with devotion not a High School dropped outs like the Wright Brothers. His father had a brazilian coffe plantation, very rich Brazilian and his mother also a Brazilian and they were both white. PROPAGANDA MACHINE does not work anymore after Internet.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe You're a bit naive about someone going to school. The science & engineering for aerodynamics, as it applies to airfoil design, was a complete and total unknown until 1901. You couldn't go to school to learn it in other words. There had been a few scientists that tested parts of the overall, but the theories of the early engineers was either incomplete or just simply wrong. Wilbur Wright was the first to understand it and he alone established the correct science of airfoil design.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Most early pioneers believed that a cambered wing was the way to go, but there were a small number of early experimenters that believed the flat or uncambered wing would be sufficient, Santos Dumont believed in the latter. After the Wrights measured the actual lift of their 1900 & 1901 while tethered in the wind,they discovered Lilienthal's lift tables were wrong. Testing by trial & error would be too expensive and take too long, so Wilbur developed his balance scale fora wind tunnel.
BearFlight 8 months ago
Cont. It has been known that "Wings with cambered airfoil are unstable but perform the best by tests" regardless of any mathematical conclusion. A complete analyses w/angle of attack will need Reynolds, Bernoulli, Newton & Calculus.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
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What Wilbur Wright discovered was a method by which you could accurately measure an airfoil's performance in a wind-tunnel. It was his balance gauge and mathematical formulation for converting measured information into a full size airfoil with predictable performance. You are WRONG BearFlight !!! Cont.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Code 3MXvAaxS8ok you can see the man who built the 14 Bis exactly equal, then he taught his daughter how to fly it.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
Santos Dumont grandfather was french Francois Dumont, his father Henri Dumont was born in Brazil then moved back to France to study Engineering then returned to Brazil. His mother Francisca Paula Santos ( she was white, for the racists )
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe While back down at Kitty Hawk in 1911, the Wrights along with an extended number of other engineers, tested a new glider that was equipped with their latest patent for a deflective horizontal elevator, rather than a "flying" elevator. This glider was equipped with their most efficient airfoil they had ever designed, which had an AR of 11.5 with a tapered main airfoil set. Orville set a world gliding endurance record of 11 minutes 35 seconds, starting from a 30m high sand dune.
BearFlight 8 months ago
It is so fascinating the way you describe the Wright Brothers history that I think I am going to cry.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 20: Personally, I think the greatest irony that all of you have missed, is that had the Wrights not been so successful with their test machines (1900-1905) names like Ferber, Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, etc. would have been little known or remembered. Dumont certainly would have been remembered, but only because of his dirigibles. The ACdeF members struggled and tried, but they couldn't understand why the Wrights were so successful and they were not. 8Aug1908 changed everything.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 19: Santos Dumont was an interesting character, as he became world famous for his dirigible flights over Paris at the turn of the century, but its no secret he firmly believed that HTA flight wasn't possible (its all a matter of record with the ACdeF). After Archdeacon and Ferber learned of the Wright's extraordinary success with their Flyer III test bed, Archdeacon knew they (ACdeF) had to do something to save the Honor of France, at least in his mind.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 18: It should also be noted that the Wrights never went after anyone in court, if those people were not a business threat to them, which is why Wilbur Wright personally requested that the LCGdeNA drop their lawsuit against Santos Dumont. Yes, Dumont had illegally used the Wright's patented technology, but Wilbur thought that the LCGdeNA's claim that Dumont was "criminal" in his actions (for using it to make money) was a stretch. Finally, in 1910, the LCGdeNA agreed.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 17: The Clement-Bayard Co. was licensed by the Wrights to build the Vert4 engine, but they also had paid LCGdeNA for the user's license for the Wright USP #821,393 as well. So excited by the Dumont co-designed (Bleriot, Saulnier, and Wright) M19 Demosielle, C-B pre-built 50 M19 air frames, offering the option of adding any one of three engines, including the Vert4, but after only selling 15 in a year, they scraped the remained 35 and used the parts to build Farman III biplanes.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 16: So you see my friend, when the Wrights showed up in Europe in 1908, it was for the singular purpose of selling their machine and if you happened to be an aviator experimenter and didn't want a Wright Flyer, then you could purchase a user's license from the Wrights to use their technology, if you wanted to develop your own machine, like Henri Farman, Louis Bleriot, or Leon Delagrange did. Or do like Clement-Bayard did, who built Demosielle's under license from the Wrights.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 15: When Wilbur designed his wind tunnel balance scale set, to directly measure lift and the ratio of drag, that wasn't enough you do realize, as Wilbur then had to also devise an entirely new set of math formulas that would convert these recorded numbers into something useful. Lilienthal had used John Smeathon's CoP conversion factor of 0.0054 (Wil corrected it to its true value 0.0033), which only further rendured Lilienthal's lift table numbers of no value in airfoil design.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 14: Finally, in January of 1909, Wilbur's brother and sister showed up, so they moved their operations even further from Paris (Pau), hoping they would finally get some peace so they could start their flight school and have the opportunity to build 2 more machines to use in Italy and Germany. Wilbur took care of Italy (where a passenger took the 1st movie film from an airplane while in flight). Then Farman, Delagrange, the Zens, Lambert, & Bleriot came to Pau too.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 13: You should read the private letters of Wilbur's to his family back in Dayton, between May and December of 1908. All of the attention he was getting from the European newspapers and then when all of Europe's Royalty began showing up, Wilbur was overwhelmed and was looking for any excuse just to go home. There were mornings when he would leave his room in LeMans and 2,000 to 3,000 people would be waiting outside, hoping he was going to fly that day, most often he did not.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 12: While the Wrights were in Europe (1908-1909), they spent that time trying to set up manufacturing/marketing of their machine in France-UK-Italy and Germany, which they did. Their marketing in Europe was handled by the CR Flint Co of New York. Wilbur only flew for the purpose of demonstrating their machine and unlike anyone else, their machine actually worked, where no one elses did, plus they could fly in wind and rain, it didn't matter. All ACdeF machines required calm.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 11: After 8Aug1908, the Wrights not only established the base technology so others could develop machines that were actually capable of flight, they became very rich, as they should have been for what they had given the world. I do find the number of individuals that tried to steal their work to be interesting, considering it was pretty easy to get a license from them for their control system and most honest people did, but there were a few who didn't, so they took them to court.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 10: When Wilbur finally started his demo flights at LeMans in 1908, they didn't care about any records or who flew first or not, they simply didn't care. If you wanted to fly an airplane, they had the only machine in the world that could fly, just as everyone had hoped, especially the ACdeF members, as they were astonished and amazed by Wilbur's machine. There were two things the Wrights offered, you could buy one of their machines or buy a users license and design your own.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 9: After 1905, the Wrights didn't need to fly, because they knew what they had, so they spent the next 3 years trying to land contracts with various governments. It was Wil and Orv's original intent to sell their machine to governments, to recoup their investment and provide for their families, after they were going to give it all free to the aviator experimenters out there, but there were so many who lied to the French-German-British governs, they had to change their direction.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 8: After they redesigned their 1902 glider to handle the increased weight of an engine and transmission, they flew it on 5 test flights, proving their base technology was sound, so then the real work began. They spent 1904 going through numerous configural changes with the Flyer II, finally ending with the more evenly balanced Flyer III in 1905. They ended all their testing after their endurance tests established fuel use, it was months before notified of their patents in Mrh'06.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 7: After nearly 3 months of testing over 200 different wing shapes, some with radial camber, others with hyperbolical camber, then he tried different ARs and on and on, then after 100s of hours of testing, they found two shapes that when built full size, he knew exactly how their airfoil would perform. Of course this wasn't until after he developed a new math formula so this could be done, proving everyone before them was wrong. Once this was fixed, then they worked on control.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 6: Wilbur knew that trying to experiment with a full size machine, to go through the process of "trial & error" as you correctly noted before, just wasn't possible. They had neither the time or money to do that, so Wil devised a scale measuring instrument that would directly measure the lift and drag generated by a scale model wing in a wind tunnel. There was an exception though, Wil correctly figured out drag was not linear, but dynamic, as camber, AR, all effected lift too.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 5: In 1901, Wil increased his wing area from 165² ft to 290² ft, yet the actual measured (true) lift was exactly the same as the year before! Wilbur was both confused and intrigued at the same time. Chanute showed up, but he had no answers, but despite their early disappointment, Wilbur rebuilt the wings on his 1901 glider (decreased the camber) and eventually did have numerous successful flights. Despite this, Wilbur was more interested in why their numbers were so far off.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 4: After their first trip down to KH in 1900, Wilbur was disappointed because his glider wouldn't fly very well, at least with him on board and according to the wings he had designed (based on Lilienthal's lift charts which Chanute had provided to Wil) they should have easily lifted him in a minimum of headwind. So, Wilbur did something unusual, he went into town and bought a pair of spring scales and actually measured the pull (lift) of his machine and it only had 30% lift.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 3: Wilbur at first designed (on paper) a method of lateral control, but everything he designed was simply too heavy (ailerons, wing AoA variation with a set of gears to operate it, even a single spoiler rise, etc..). It wasn't until he found that by simply twisting a rectanglar shaped box, that he could effectively get the reaction he wanted with something that would be sufficiently light enough for their glider, but it would require symetrical wings and Chanute/Herring had one.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 2: The scientist/engineers were Cayley, Lilienthal, Maxim, Langley, and then the Wright brothers. Wilbur Wright was the first to suggest that "Inherent Stability" was maybe incorrect, at least for a low speed aircraft and that maybe "Inherent Instability" would be more successful, after all, that's how birds fly, by being "....aggressive at maintaining their equilibrium..". So he needed to come with a practical way to vary lateral lift (left to right) of the main lifting planes.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Part 1: There were two camps during that time, there were the aviators, each attempting to gain fame from their flight records, with Henri Farman being the most successful of that group. Other notable HTA aviators of that era were Louis Bleriot, Leon Delagrange, Robert Esnault-Pelterie, De Pischoff, Gastambide-Mengin, Captain Ferber, Gabriel Voisin, Moore Brabazon, Charles Rolls, Hubert Latham, and certainly Glenn Curtiss.The other group were the scientist/engineers.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe In that film of Dumont on 13Nov1906, the film is absolute proof of Dumont's conceptional failure. Yes, toward the end you do see some ballooning of his covering, but that was only because of the physical reaction between his CoP and AoA combined with his forward speed. That "flight" of his was nothing more than a forced power "jump", it still couldn't fly and there is no evidence it ever did fly. ALL of the period documents show that Dumont never flew the Voisin-Pelterie 14bis.
BearFlight 8 months ago
Code 3MXvAaxS8ok you can see the man who built the 14 Bis exactly equal, then he taught his daughter how to fly it.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
Code V0vZWo5gE1U you can see the airfoils when he reached 220m. Everything was made by trial and error, no worries about patent or mathematical calculation.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe You say the 14bis above was not improved abit???? You've got to be kidding me, who do you think you're posting to?? OPEN YOUR EYES! The so-called "replica" above has airfoils, Dumont's 14bis DID NOT, it had flat non-lift producing stretched cloth panels, there dozens of photographs and even a movie film of Dumont trying and trying to fly, but it was a no go, why do you think it never flew. This is ABSOLUTE, there is no question that the machine Dumont called the 14bis was a failure.
BearFlight 8 months ago
The 14 Bis above was not improved a bit, you are mistaken, the person who built this
said that he followed precisely the original.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What Wilbur Wright discovered was a method by which you could accurately measure an airfoil's performance in a wind-tunnel. It was his balance gauge and mathematical formulation for converting measured information into a full size airfoil with predictable performance. " It has been known that "Wings with cambered airfoil are unstable but perform the best by tests" regardless of any mathematical conclusion. A complete analyses w/angle of attack will need Reynolds, Bernoulli, Newton & Calculus.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Or is it that you just can't stand the idea that two common men, from humble beginnings, could just happen to be smarter than all those who believed they were, above others, due to their education and the wealthy families they just happened to be from and the social station they were in. On 8Aug1908 at LeMans, Leon Delagrange said it best: (direct quote) "..he has beaten us, Monsieur Wright has beaten us all, I am humbled by his true knowledge and understanding of this endeavor!"
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe So, you say the Wrights were evil, why is that? Is it because they refused to accept the assumptions of those before them, that they refused to rely on WAGing for their research or because they spent years working on a concept that just happened to be opposed to all their peers, proving they were right all along? They, in a true scientific approach to a highly technical and totally misunderstood problem, developed the original basis of a technology through tedious emperical testing?
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Re-read the Wright's original patent, their patent is NOT for a glider and it is NOT for wingwarping, why don't you open your eyes and brain and read the patent! You say it was unfair and whatever, but you can't argue the fact that 37 different courts and judges in 5 different countries say you are WRONG my friend. The Wrights encouraged others to use their technology, it was to their benefit, just pay for it that was all, it wasn't like others like Dumont couldn't afford it you know.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe After they got their patent, they told everyone interested they could use their technology, no problem, the Wrights were not interested in flying, they were engineer/scientists that only wanted to work in the background developing new ideas. All they asked is if you wanted your machine to work and you wanted to fly, maybe set records or you wanted to design new airplanes to sell, fine, just pay the Wrights the minimal royalty fee for the use of their work and go ahead.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe I suggest you read the original USP #821,393, Section 3, lines 45-100 my friend, Wilbu was the first to even consider the concept of Inherent Instability and their development of the control system to fly an HTA (soaring or powered) in this fashion was completely the opposite of all other experimenters of that era. Just because they thought of it first, tested it, then built the world's first successful flying machine is just the way it is.
BearFlight 8 months ago
Wright brothers first attempt to register their P failed, then they hired an attorney to go around the bush. Their patent finally registered said Flying Machine with or without motor,Ailerons of any kind that might be created based on their wing warping theory. That was evil and that is why they lost the admiration of many, even americans. That was crystal clear that their goal was their pockets, not Dumont, usually the rich do not work hard with their own hands HE WAS SPECIAL, you think not.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Dumont entered his last Demoiselle (M22), but it never got past the 2nd day's qualifying events, as his machine was way too slow (almost 10 mph slower than the top 19 qualifiers), but Dumont's main problem was that he was just too inexperienced with powered HTAs and he couldn't handle his machine. Wilbur Wright and Louis Bleriot had modified Dumont's machine back in January for him, but Dumont still failed to understand the difference between "I Instability" and "I Stability" flight.
BearFlight 8 months ago
@Verdelufe Earlier I was telling you about what happened at the Reims Air Meeting in 1909, when the final round of the event for the Gordon Bennett Trophy was a three way battle between Curtiss, Levbvre, and Bleriot. Curtiss and Levbvre were flying biplanes, both of which had airfoils that had been designed and developed on Wi