@smoosav9 I have deleted your lengthy quotations. Once again, I kindly request that you please do not advertise your religious scripture on my YouTube channel. Thank you!
Dear friend, your objection to the Baha'i Faith is baseless, and requires long discussions, IF we are honest and truly want to bring about a sense of understanding to the issue you have brought up. This is not something that I can just throw out a few words and refute a baseless objection you have posted. Also, no sincere scholar or man of intelligence would confuse the statements made by the Supreme Body of the Baha'i Faith with the intention of selling "commercial products" you have posted!!!!
@smoosav9 You haven't even said anything that disagrees with me so far.
We both agree that the Bahá'í Faith judges openly gay people as "against nature" and participating in a "shameful sexual aberration."
We both agree that Bahá'ís are obligated to mindlessly, blindly obey their religious doctrines without question.
My objection is simply that there aren't any good reasons for the Bahá'í Faith's position on homosexuality. How can you call that baseless when you haven't even argued against it?
I have NOT agreed to even a single statement you have mentioned!!! :-) I only posted my sources where I get my information, so you can see that it is not just my opinion. But you consider those sources to be "lengthy" and too long! :-) That's okay my friend!
@smoosav9 Oh sorry! I thought we both agreed that Bahá'ís are obligated to unquestioningly obey the doctrines that their scripture says Bahá'u'lláh prescribed. Although I know it has a negative connotation for you, I think any fair-minded person would agree that counts as "blind obedience."
It is also true the Bahá'í Faith judges openly gay people as "against nature" and participating in a "shameful sexual aberration." So we should be able to agree there.
@smoosav9 By the way, I already know all the sources you quoted. There isn't any need to copy-and-paste them here. You only have to refer to them. Believe me, I have read more scholarship about the Bahá'í Faith and the Bahá'í scripture than you will know in your lifetime. ; )
The quotation I have posted from Baha'u'llah indicates that after (NOT BEFORE) a person recognizes that Divine Physician, he has no right to question him. That is if one understands the infallibility of the Messengers of God. If you decide to take the infallibility under question, then that's a whole different story. I have seen non Bahais who sincerely question things, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's Independent Investigation of Truth!
@smoosav9 I kindly request that you do not SPAM my YouTube video with lengthy quotations from your religion or commercial products. This is a discussion, not an advertisement space.
"The divine Physician hath the pulse of mankind within His almighty grasp. At one time He may well deem fit to sever certain infected limbs, that the disease may not spread to other parts of the body. This would be the very essence of mercy and compassion, and to none is given the right to object, for He is indeed the All-Knowing, the All-Seeing."
@smoosav9 This quotation shows quite clearly — contrary to the religion's rhetoric about "independent investigation" — that Bahá'ís are explicitly required to blindly obey the teachings of their religion. Thank you for pasting here in full.
Independent investigation of truth is the principle in which one uses to find the Divine Teacher for this age. Baha'u'llah is the object of that search....but once we find him and ACCEPT HIM, I can't question His authority. I CAN NO LONGER QUESTION HIM thinking of the Independent Investigation of Truth. Baha'u'llah has come to create a new World, not go along with the norms of the society! The Baha'i Faith is not a buffet that you can pick and choose what like and what you don't like!
@smoosav9 "but once we find him and ACCEPT HIM, I can't question His authority. " Yes, we already agree that Bahá'ís are blindly obedient of their religion. It is commonly accepted knowledge that Bahá'ís are morally obligated to abstain from critically examining their religion once they commit to it. I don't think we need to argue about this!
No dear friend! This quotation shows that after we accept a Divine Messenger we do not sit around and stipulate and question Him ("the All-Knowing, the All-Seeing"). We do not question a competent physician after we have fully and independently investigated His credentials and have agreed to him taking out a deadly tumor out of our body. We have faith in Him and fully trust Him, even though at times, things might NOT be totally clear to us!
@smoosav9 Actually, Bahá'ís are as willing to get second-opinions or file malpractice lawsuits against once-considered "competent" doctors or physicians as non-Bahá'ís.
So you would agree that you are either lying or mistaken about Bahá'ís never questioning the credentials of doctors they have deemed credible, right?
Also, don't you agree that Bahá'ís are only unquestioningly (i.e., blindly) obedient of their religious scripture, not any human authorities?
My friend, where ever you live, whatever organization you belong to, even this youtube that you have signed yourself up with, there are RULES that you have to follow. You cannot run away from it! Say what you like, it doesn't matter! World Religions are no different. They have rules too! Even a jungle has its own rules and laws. You want a religion that conforms to YOU.....then you be happy. :-) Of course it is your right to want such a thing! Just don't impose it on others!
@smoosav9 Relativism is a terrible accusation. And exceptionalism becomes just another relative jungle. Sorry, your new revelation is the old lie.Genesis 3 you little godman you. Spiritually illigitmate spiritual children of a Polygamist, Polytheist, and Pantheist. You would try to instruct the mind of God? yes you do, because your continually acting like you want to be like Him but are lost. Christ Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten son of God has already removed the separation between God...
@smoosav9 Sorry, but the Bahá'í Faith doesn't claim to be making up arbitrary "rules" that you have to follow to be a member. It is claiming to be laying down the irrevokable, undeniable LAWS of a humanity — whether Bahá'í or not.
Are you really so clueless and ignorant about your own religion?!
Whether you decide to sign up in a health club, or register yourself at a university, or decide to get a driver's license or whatever.....there are laws. If you don't like it, then no one is forcing you to be in a certain religion. Baha'u'llah is the Divine Physician for this age. Question him all you want before you become one of his followers (a Baha'i), once a person becomes a Baha'i, he or she does not sit down and question the infallible words of the Author of the Faith!!! :-)
@smoosav9 Yes, this is a very common defence tactic among Bahá'ís: Don't worry! The Bahá'í Faith is like a sports club that you can choose to join or choose to ignore! We aren't demanding other people obey our laws!
However, this is a misrepresentation of the actual religion. Bahá'u'lláh says that his laws "must be faithfully obeyed by all." He also says that "All must diligently observe them."
So you are simply being deceitful by presenting your religion as though it were like a sports club.
Please study the Faith more carefully! Study the covenant of Baha'u'llah! Unfortunately you think God's Faith is some man-made compositions of different things that anyone can come along and change it because some aspects of it might not conform to your desires. There is NO SECRET TACTIC!!!! You are welcome to the faith no matter who you are, but see what the laws are and you are welcomed to leave at any time. NO compulsion! NO TACTICS! :-)
@smoosav9 I didn't say the tactic was secret. I also didn't say that Bahá'ís think of their religion as made of human compositions. Obviously, just like Scientologists, Branch Davidians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and all religious people, Bahá'ís believe they are following the word of God or an infallible prophet. Why do you assume I am unfamiliar with the Bahá'í Faith?
You are unfamiliar with the Baha'i Faith, because with your response, obviously, you don't know the difference between a sect or denomination as suppose to a World Religion. Check the Encyclopedia of Britannica, 1992, and see if it says, Baha'i Faith is a sect like Mormons and etc, or is it a World Religion! Huge difference!
Arguments in the Baha'i Faith are forbidden (another rule), and my conversation with you is becoming exactly just that! I have no further thing to say my friend! Thank you.
@smoosav9 I never claimed that Bahá'ís believe they are a sect. My point was that I know that Bahá'ís believe they are following the word of God — just like those other religions. Makes sense?
I guess English isn't your first language, because you seem to have trouble following what I am writing.
Also, none of the religions I listed claim to be "sects" of any other religion, either. You can look that up in the Encyclopaedia Britannica too!
Dear friend, in my last post, I said, "I have no further thing to say"... Yet you claim, you know and understand English??!!! :-) You have a very hard time following your own reasoning! Please study more and be honest and fair in your statements! Once again, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me.
@smoosav9 I never asked you to keep commenting. One thing you learn when you study English is that a person is free to respond even if the other person says they don't want to respond anymore. See? You don't want to respond doesn't mean I have to stop responding. Best of luck in your education.
@smoosav9 "Arguments in the Baha'i Faith are forbidden (another rule)"
We haven't even disagreed about anything! All you've said is that Bahá'ís are not allowed to think about whether their religion might be wrong, and I agree. Where is the argument??
I did not attempt to list any other racist organizations as I thought the KKK served the purpose fine. LDS did not teach blacks were evil. They taught that they were cursed which I suppose can be construed as racist but does not necessarily have to be. You are again casting aspersions at me. Cartoon version of history? Two dimensional? That is subjective. Debate me on substantive issues.
@thermionic1234567 Right, the LDS were an officially racist organization. If you think it's doubtful whether saying all Black people are "cursed" is racist, then you are clueless.
The fact that you immediately think of the KKK and no other racist organization suggests to me that you have a cartoon version of history.
I never mentioned the KKK. Only you did. This suggests to me a lack of historical awareness on your part.
They were racist insofar as they barred membership to blacks. Please note that I said "(it (being allegedly accursed)) can be construed as racist but does not necessarily have to be." It could have been a ham-fisted explanation as to why blacks suffered. Or it could be something else. All I am saying is that all people involved in this edict did not necessarily have the same reasons for it.. One man's Star Fleet Prime Directive is anothor's apartheid.
@thermionic1234567 They also taught that Black people, being cursed, cannot go to heaven.
However, all this is tangential and irrelevant. The point was just that voluntary membership in an organization does not absolve that organization of the responsibility to be free from misinformation, prejudice, or hatred.
I merely disagree with you and have not called you "stupid" or suggested you are mentally ill. We are discussing the religious aspects of this prohibition. What scriptures do you use to make your point? Bahuillah's writings? Or from the other Bahai prophets? If your arguments are external to Bahaiism I believe they are irrelevant but not invalid. At the very least, the Bahais will have to remove the Abrahamic aspects of their religion to come in line with your desired goal.
Lastly, let me say something positive about the non-sexual aspects of male homosexuality. My best friend in graduate school was homosexual and I loved the way his mind worked, his grace and charm and his sense of humor. And I have two other friends who are also homosexual. One is still practicing and the other is celibate and a member of my church; their company is vastly to be preferred to than my supposed red neck allies.
My final critique has to do with certain types of behavior. Have you ever seen the activities at homosexual marches? Have you noticed how depraved they are? Have you seen the NAMBLA floats?
On a practical level, male homosexuality/sodomy is extremely dangerous behavior from an epidemiological standpoint. The average male homosexual commits sodomy with hundreds of men per year and consumes approximately three pounds of fecal matter in the process. Admittedly this is not the case for female homosexuals.
@thermionic1234567 You are spewing unresearched, imaginary dogma. What are your sources for how much "fecal matter" gay people consume?
Even if it were true (which it is not), not all gay men enjoy anal sex or employ high risk sexual behaviour (no more than straight men).
Besides, people are free to choose to engage in dangerous activities. Being dangerous doesn't make it immoral. They are mutually consenting adults, not hurting anyone any more than "straight" people.
Lastly, I should respond to your ad hominem attacks. You state that something is wrong with me because I disagree with you. You also mentioned stupid somewhere as well. I disagree with you on two, maybe three levels. The author of the Old and New Testaments says that homosexuality/sodomy is malum in se. I do not understand why. I may even disagree with God. But that's what he said and there have been numerous instances wherein I have come to understand something I rejected in the past.
@thermionic1234567 Ad hominem is when you tell someone their wrong because of some personal fault of theirs. I never said you were stupid or something was wrong with you because you disagreed. I concluded that you have some severe reading comprehension disability because you never understood (and still fail to understand) what I wrote.
Ad hominem is not the same as insulting someone. I may have insulted you, but I never committed ad hominem.
What is wrong with me? I am an Orthodox Christian. The Bible is my guide on the issue. If, however, I came to the conclusion that there were a need for a new religion, I would not care about homosexuality/sodomy. I would not promote, but would probably be mute on the subject. There is the MCC church and the Episcopal church. The former promotes homosexuality/sodomy and the latter affirms it. Start a Bahai chapter that affirms it. They have progressive revelation, so it should be easy!
@thermionic1234567 The fact that you cannot think of any racist organizations other than the KKK is your failing, not mine. Many secular institutions (e.g., country clubs) and religions have held and promoted racist ideologies (e.g., The Church of Latter Day Saints taught that Black people were inherently evil until the 1960's). I never mentioned the KKK or implied anything about them. You have a two-dimensional, cartoon version of history of racism in your mind, so you immediately think KKK .
I believe in banning the Burqa and invite you to join my Facebook group, so please do not accuse me of being a misogynist. Your argument is with God-breathed scripture which in Judaism and Christianity is clear on the subject of sodomy. I do not know what else Bahaism adds to this, so there may be more nastiness of which I am not aware.
My wife has black skin which is immutable. God made her that way. God gave me -- or left me over to -- a number of negative personality traits, ie original sin, which I am striving to exorcize. Have you ever embraced your negative qualities as a thought experiment? Have you given vent to your depraved nature? I have and I do not recommend it. As far as women's rights go, I am 90% NOW certified, an A-. I am a strong critic of Islam and do not understand Muhammed's inclusion in the Bahai Pantheon.
@thermionic1234567 The only reason why I mentioned racism or sexism was to refute your totally irrelevant first point, which was that since the Bahá'í Faith is a voluntary organization, its ignorant prejudicial hatred of gay people cannot be wrong. We can agree that your argument was stupid. I never accused you of being sexist or racist. Seriously, what is wrong with you?
The point is that there's nothing depraved or immoral or unnatural about homosexuality. You are ignorant. Learn more.
Last time I checked, none of these religions said anything more than that one should not commit sodomy. I am not aware of any Christian group -- with the exception of the so-called Westboro Bapists -- that uses pejorative terminology against people who have taken the decision to live a sodomy-centered lifestyle. I understand your point regarding voluntary organizations not being exempt from criticism, but please do not equate the KKK with those who reject homosexuality.
@thermionic1234567 Hate can only be in pejorative slurs? Calling gay people's orientation a "shameful sexual aberration" that is "against nature" (as the Bahá'í Faith does) is just as hateful as calling them "fags."
Homosexuality is not "sodomoy centred" any more than heterosexuality is "vaginal penetration centred". Has your religious upbringing rendered you stupid?
I never equated anything to the KKK. What is wrong with you? Voluntary membership does not legitimate misinformation and hatred.
Why do so many of you homosexuals seek inclusion in voluntary organizations that want nothing to do with you? Why don't you form your own religion or join the Episcopal Church. Sodomy is always immoral as when practiced by two same sexers, it cannot be within the context of Holy Matrimony. Every other sin has been practiced since time immemorial. True on sterile marriages.
@thermionic1234567 Are you assuming I'm homosexual? Are you suggesting that non-gay people cannot care about gay people's rights and feelings? Do you not care about any type of people with whom you are not affiliated? Is that your "morality"?
Also, does racism become less vile if it is practiced and taught by organizations whose membership is voluntary?
Does sexism become less vile if it is practiced and taught by organizations whose membership is voluntary?
Yes, I thought you were homosexual; & of course people who are not members of a particular group can be concerned with the fates of others.Homosexuality is considered wrong in Bahaism, Christianity and Judaism.
some of the passages you are reading is about child molestation, not homosexuality. among many gays there are some that are bahais. they maintain celibacy just like an unmarried heterosexual. and since bahaism only recognizes marriage btwn man & woman that can be permanent for any lifestyle. using evolution, fitness is also set by procreation, so that would be why is unnatural. man & woman can adopt. bahai believe what child needs are fulfilled by man and woman. religions have laws. get over it
@sagbbpleasures Which of the passages that I read do you think were about child molestation? Can you specify?
The Bahá'í Faith teaches hateful, shaming and false dogmas about human sexuality. That is wrong even if there are celibate gay Bahá'ís who consent to live by those dogmas.
Your ignorance of biology (evolution) is apparent. Homosexuality is prevalent in every social animal, including more than 500 species other than humans. It's not unnatural in any scientific sense. Educate yourself.
@mavaddat the one that mentions that feeling shame for humanity, and pen wont write because of it. that's the one you are mentioning. besides your insults to bahai is not constructive. if bahai is hateful to you, you just hate all religions, and I find you more intolerant than any religious fanatic. the only difference is you fond your own religion and it starts with intolerance. we live in this world too, we seen so much hate than you can imagine, we have seen hate, including yours.
@sagbbpleasures Shoghi Effendi, who was assigned the role of "infallibly" interpreting Bahá'u'lláh, says that Bahá'u'lláh meant all forms of "sodomy" and homosexuality in that passage, "We shrink for very shame..."
So even though it may have been about child molesting, your religion's authority declared that it was about homosexuality. Are you really that ignorant about your own religion? Or are you just disingenuous? Or dishonest?
I am intolerant of arbitrary bigotry. That's true. And good.
@mavaddat I think it's very good that Bahá'u'lláh established some new laws. I agree with the Bahá'í Faith that humanity's social progress has reached a degree at which old ways of doing things are not adequate to sustain such progress.
@clex19 Bahá'u'lláh didn't establish new laws. He codified the prejudices of his age.
But this is a separate discussion.
The point is that to assume that homophobia is divine because it came from a guy claiming to speak for an invisible sky-deity is no more a reason to blindly obey anti-gay marriage laws than pretending that seeing certain "mystical patterns" in spilled chicken blood is a reason to condemn being gay.
These don't qualify as "reasons" just because they're given as excuses.
@mavaddat "Can you see that rules restricting certain kinds of behaviours should have reasons?" Exactly! The Bahá'í Faith has reasons for its marriage laws. It's just that you don't find the reasons acceptable, and that's okay. You have a different paradigm and different beliefs, and that's perfectly fine. :)
@clex19 Let's be clear about this: The Bahá'í Faith doesn't have reasons for its discrimination against gay people. It has dogmas (e.g., being gay is "against nature") and prejudices (e.g., being gay is "a shameful sexual aberration").
You cannot and will not defend the dogmas and prejudice of the Bahá'í Faith. You simply accept them in spite of their having no rational, ethical, or moral support.
In other words, you have no reason (that you've given) for your obedience of the Bahá'í laws.
@mavaddat That is correct. I do feel comfortable and confident in my point of view. I've been learning about the Bahá'í Faith for nearly twenty years, and although I'm no expert and never will be, it makes sense to me. My brain and my heart both tell me that it's what's right for me. And I'm content with that. :D
@clex19 If your "brain and heart" feel comfortable with arbitrarily discriminating against gay couples, you have a problem. That "makes sense" to you, but you cannot explain why. So, it doesn't really make sense as much as feel comfortable.
When it comes down to it, you're willing to ignorantly trust the commands of a bunch of Middle Eastern dudes who were merely expressing the prejudices of their day.
If that's not blind obedience, I don't know what is.
@mavaddat Again, it all boils down to perspective and what beliefs one accepts. I don’t feel comfortable at all with arbitrary discrimination, and that’s not what I BELIEVE Bahá’í marriage laws are. I believe that the restriction on Bahá’í marriage is spiritually beneficial, just like other restrictions outside the Bahá’í Faith. For example, I hope you agree that limiting the legal driving age is a good idea. But is this limitation discrimination based on age?
@clex19 There's a good reason for restricting the driving age. Again, you seem to be baffled by the point that isn't any reason given for restricting marriage against gay couples.
Can you see that rules restricting certain kinds of behaviours should have reasons? Do you see how they can have reasons? From the way you're writing, it seems like this has never occurred to you — that there might actually be reasons for laws...
@mavaddat Also, I agree that complying with the Bahá’í restriction on marriage between a woman and man is blind obedience. But blind obedience is not necessarily bad. When young children blindly obey their parents, oftentimes the results of this blind obedience are positive for the children. The morality of Bahá’í marriage laws cannot be objectively determined. Not everything can be supported by science or logic; some things are just up to the individual to decide for herself or himself.
That's true: Blind obedience isn't always bad. There is a small fraction of a chance it can be good. It's like forming your beliefs by flipping randomly through a book and picking random sentences to believe.
Otherwise, yeah... it's always bad to believe without reason.
It's particularly ironic because Bahá'u'lláh claimed to have abolished the dogmatism of Islam, but he just reinstituted it in a different form.
@mavaddat I agree. That makes perfect sense, from a non-Bahá'í point of view. But Bahá'ís believe that it is best for the spiritual health of all to limit marriage to a man and a woman. I understand you do not agree with this, and I respect that. Believe what you want to believe. I'm just saying that this whole topic depends on which point of view is taken. :)
@clex19 Right! Except the difference between us is that I think "points of view" should be based on empathy, reason, and reflection whereas you seem to be comfortable choosing your "point of view" like you choose your socks or your underwear.
@mavaddat Well, you must agree that, in a general sense, there should be some restrictions on marriage. Would you say that only allowing certain age groups (e.g. only those who or at or above 18 years of age) to marry is discrimination based on age?
Furthermore, from a Bahá'í perspective, restricting Bahá'í marriage to a man and a woman is best for the spiritual well-being of all and is not meant to be discrimination in any way, shape, or form. However, from a non-Bahá’í perspective, the argument that this restriction is discrimination is sound and logical. From a non-Baha’i perspective, you have been very logical. For that I commend you.
@MrJapilz Except "chastity" is a red herring, isn't it? Since we're talking about whether openly romantic gay relationships (marriages) are allowed in the Bahá'í Faith, pretending that this is an issue of chastity is just disingenuous and dishonest.
@mavaddat The whole purpose of a marriage is to create children (look on the bnasaa web site), so entering a marriage that (willingly by the participants) does not create children is frowned upon. This applies to everyone. A married man and women must be chaste in their own sexual relationship, so how is it possible to occur in a gay relationship since creating a child is obviously not the goal? Search bnasaa on google to access the site with all of the quotes that are there.
@MrJapilz Bahá'ís don't get married just to procreate, but to express their mutual love and commitment. The pretense that marriage requires offspring is an excuse to deny gay relationships.
The Universal House of Justice explicitly states, "A couple who are physically incapable of having children may, of course, marry, since the procreation of children is not the only purpose of marriage" (3 November, 1982). So denying marriage to gay people is clearly arbitrary discrimination — homophobia.
@mavaddat With regard to birth control an individual asked the beloved Guardian a similar question in 1935, and the Guardian’s secretary replied on his behalf on 14 October 1935:
"For Bahá'u'lláh explicitly reveals in His Book of laws that the very purpose of marriage is the procreation of children who, when grown up, will be able to know God and to recognize and observe His Commandments and Laws as revealed through His Messengers."
@MrJapilz With all due respect, you seem confused by the English langauge. I never wrote anything about "birth control." You're swatting at thin air.
I cited an explicit endorsement from the Universal House of Justice of marriages that are INCAPABLE of producing children.
The one and only difference between those infertile marriages and gay marriages is that the couple is of the same sex. That is blatant, bald-faced bigotry. It's just hypocrisy. Simply a fear of gay people — homophobia.
@mavaddat Please read the full letter. In the sentence right before the beginning of your quote, it is clearly stated that "the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation of children." Basically what your quote is saying is that a couple should not be forbidden to marry just because they are not able to procreate. This letter doesn't even mention homosexuals; the topic is "trial marriage."
Even if the primary purpose of marriage is procreation (an utterly asinine injunction to begin with), the Universal House of Justice EXPLICITLY allows marriages that are incapable of producing children ONLY IF THE COUPLE HAVE DIFFERING SEXUAL PARTS.
This is undeniable hypocrisy.
The kind of bits you have under your pants is a completely arbitrarily basis on which to deny people marriage. Do you see this? Can you even understand the argument?
@mavaddat The Writings are clear, as the video says (with quotes from the Bahá'í Writings). Bahá'ís should not marry a person of the same sex, and sex is not allowed outside of marriage regardless of who the partner is. Bahá'ís who are gay just have to follow the rules like everyone else. Being gay is not condoned, and gays have rights. Should anyone have urges to have sex with the same sex, those feelings are to be controlled. It is clear. Ignorance is one of the worst problems humans face.
@ABahaiPointGroup No one is saying the Bahá'í Writings are ambiguous.
The point is that the Bahá'í Writings are clearly bigoted. The Bahá'í marriage laws are invidiously discriminatory.
The Bahá'í Faith has to change its own laws to be a moral religion.
Saying, "if you don't like it, then leave the religion," is like pretending we should accept bigotry as long as the groups that practice it all agree to be bigoted. That's just dumb.
@mavaddat IMHO, having Bahá'í marriage confined to a woman and a man is a condition placed upon marriage itself, not upon a particular group of Bahá'ís. In fact, this restriction indiscriminately applies to all Bahá'ís, regardless of sex or sexual orientation. But you can look at this any way you want; to each his own. :)
@clex19 Your logic is clearly nonsense, though. Do you see this?
It's like creating a racist definition of Bahá'í marriage that only allows marriage between White Bahá'ís and then pretending that it's not racist because it's "a condition placed upon marriage itself, not upon a particular group of Bahá'ís, regardless of skin colour or race."
Do you see how that's the way you're arguing? Do you see how that's a completely stupid way of trying to deny that Bahá'í marriage is discriminatory?
@mavaddat 1. If you wish your words to reach the intellectual audience, I suggest you avoid criticizing others constantly an provide proof from the Bahá'í Writings. It is clear you are upset (if you are not, then please calm down and avoid the name calling).
2. A fundamental reality of religion is the concept of chastity.
3. The definition of a homophobe does not fit what I have mentioned. Homosexuals are not to be mistreated based on their sexuality by anyone - that's justice.
@mavaddat Continuing on that note: "Marriage is thus, according to the Bahá'í Teachings, primarily a social and moral act. It has a purpose which transcends the immediate personal needs and interests of the parties. Birth control, except in certain exceptional cases, is therefore not permissible.” (With regard to birth control an individual asked the beloved Guardian a similar question in 1935, and the Guardian’s secretary replied on his behalf on 14 October 1935)
There's nothing wrong with being gay and in time Bahais will surely come to accept the facts. A fundamental teaching of Bahais is to not judge people based on their gender and sexuality. as a bahai i just like to say that every religion has its flaws and the bahai faith is an extremely progressive religion for the time and the place it flourished... however science has proven to us that homosexuality does exist in nature and gays don't choose their lifestyle.
Holy means Separate from those things that are in opposition to the Hope of God. Gods hope is to have reunion with you. Trade not that which is eternal for that which is transitory. follow not the fate of the world. It shall pass away. Gods hands are stretched out to receive you still. Repent my brother lest you lay down in sorrow. God wishes not that your reunion be at the end of a life lived in waywardness. Sorrow will be your reward. Seek him while he can be yet found that thy days may be sp
@randallhoffman1 You have mistaken the teachings of prejudiced men for the "word of God" and defined "goodness" according to those men's outdated, anachronistic bigotry.
Take your "goodness" with you to the grave on which you rest all your hopes. I won't be following you on that path.
My Brother if you one day seek to be free than herein is thy prayer. Pray. Holy Father I ask you to remove the weed of Desire from the Garden of my heart. I receive this that I ask by faith. I give you Holy Father all the Glory. All the Honor. All the praise. For thou art worthy to be praised. To honor thee in thy truth I ask this of thee in the name of thy Son Christ Jesus. Amen
Again with the warmest of Bahai Love your brother Randall Hoffman a Bahai. Be Thou Holy for I am Holy sayeth the Wo
@randallhoffman1 HOW IN THE HELL (and I do mean HELL) ARE YOU TRYING TO BLEND THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH THAT 5 FEET TALL DEMON-POSSESSED APOSTATE AND DECEIVER === BAHA U LLAH? YOU'RE TOTALLY DECEIVED. You better wake up son. JESUS CHRIST IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH & THE LIFE AND HE DON'T NEED NO "BLENDING" OF THAT DEAD SHORT DUDE BAHA U LLAH. BTW: BAHA U LLAH BODY IS IN HIS GRAVE AND HIS SOUL IS IN HELL! JESUS CHRIST IS THE RISEN, LORD AND SAVIOR AND THE ONLY ONE!
Yes true Baha'is are in agreement with God in regard to Homosexuality. Homosexual behavior is in opposition to the hope of God and if practiced only exposes ones stand against the design of God and if one does not repent of such behavior then indeed God will give the individual over to his homosexual behavior. But know thou this. If you turn from this behavior and love the Lord Your God with your Whole Heart and follow his precepts instead of your fleshly desires He is JUST TO FORGIVE and will
To say to you to get over it.. is one of those things easy to say but very hard to do. I would suggest you to continue to pay attention \o the problem but keep it very secret, never displaying it in public. And go with your life.
mavaddat...we could discuss the minutiae of this subject for a month and neither of us would benefit. From your POV religion, and therefore any system of morality based on one, is crap or at least extremely questionable. If there is some constructive conversation to be had, though, let me ask you a question. Why is it that you choose to attack Switzerland? (figuratively speaking)
@aaronlee75 Haha OK, fair question. I understand your question as, Why criticize the Bahá'í Faith — surely one of the most progressive and (if nothing else) smallest religions in the world?!
There's not just one reason. First, I was a Bahá'í and it's important for me (for my own self-understanding, and for others to better understand me) to vocalize why I am no longer a Bahá'í. Also, I do believe that the Bahá'í Faith is hurting people where it doesn't need to. I should make a video about this.
@mavaddat Ah ha...close enough then. As a former Baha'i you know that the definition of marriage etc was codified 100 years ago and isn't going to change. The Baha'i rules/laws only apply to Baha'is.
Non participation in politics means we'll never try to affect the larger outside societal struggle. There'll never be a Baha'i at any type of anti-gay rally, or supporting one. Likewise, anyone can leave the Faith for any conflict of conscience with it's teachings at any time.
@aaronlee75 Non-involvement with politics is impossible. Everyone votes. The fact that Bahá'í Faith support a bigoted stance on gay marriage means that there's just one more group espousing bigotry. As Carol Hanisch pointed out, there's is no boundary between "personal" and "political." The personal *is* political.
And Bahá'ís do attend anti-gay rallies. Google "Baha Uganda gay," for example.
I want to encourage more people to embrace a humanist stance and gracefully give up this religion.
@mavaddat I should restate myselfe..."There should never be a Baha'i at any type of anti-gay rally, or supporting one." For a Baha'i to do so is openly condemned.
@aaronlee75 You seem to overestimate the extent to which homophobia is propagated by attending anti-gay rallies causes as opposed to community members passively rejecting certain members for theis sexual orientation. You really don't see to understand (or else you grossly underestimate) the psychological damage that family members telling other gay family members that they are "spiritually diseased" can cause.
@aaronlee75 Oh, also Bahá'í laws are meant to apply to all humanity, because they are said to be God's laws for everyone (not just those who accept them).
This old trope that "Bahá'í laws are just for Bahá'ís" is a rhetorical move that the Universal House of Justice adopted (alone) to avoid the embarrassing situation of having to explain why God's laws are apparently so nonsensical.
I've written about this on my Livejournal, which you can find linked from my YouTube profile.
@aaronlee75 Yes, that is precisely my point. The Bahá'í Faith claims to provide laws that benefit all who would follow them, yet there is no reason to believe that prohibiting gay people from marrying is in any way the least bit beneficial. On the contrary, there are a whole host of reasons to believe that it is positively harmful and hateful.
But Bahá'ís want it both ways. They want to be able to say that these laws are beneficial, but that we may not ask why or how upon "becoming Bahá'í."
@mavaddat As a former Baha'i you know that it's difficult for anyone to be permanently expelled unless they want to be by their own actions. You've made a break, fine...why not make it clean?
The Faith makes bridges where it can, and trys to make peace.
People don't have to agree with each other to be at peace with one another.
Did the Baha'is do you some great harm?
If you feel that way, then I apologize as much as I can.
If it's not for you, fine, find another way. Peace
@aaronlee75 Yes, being raised a Bahá'í means I was made to accept philosophically (and psychologically) damaging assumptions.
But more importantly, the Bahá'í Faith is just wrong. Baháú'lláh was not a messenger of God. We have excellent reasons to believe that he wasn't. Moreover, the reasons he gives are often literally nonsensical. It's not just about me getting leaving the faith. It's about helping others (who are interested) see they're involved in something that's actually deeply mistaken.
@mavaddat Well, if you POV is that all religions are, and have allways been garbage anyway then who would be a good candidate for a messenger of God? Or have there simply never been any messengers of God?
If there simply are no valid religions (in your POV) then it would be good to state that.
If someone is wanting to look into religions, well, Independant Investigation of Truth is listed as one of the first principles of the Baha'i Faith. In a way you are supporting that, so thanks.
@aaronlee75 It is too facile to say that religions have been "garbage." That they are based on poor reasoning, superstition or metaphysical dogmas doesn't necessarily make them trash. It means they are expressions of human thinking, good and bad.
Strange as it may sound, "God" is actually not a fully coherent concept. So it is meaningless to speak of standards for identifying who might "speak on behalf of God." How would one identify the true ambassador of the king of Ziabon, land of Ziabons?
@mavaddat "garbage" seemed a good summary at the time; questionable may be more accurate of your POV...
Never advocates open mindedness? It does both..."One hours quiet contemplation is preferable to a lifetime of pious whorship in the eyes of God." -Baha'u'llah- This applies as much to Baha'is as anyone else.
A religion though is not a debate or social club. If you believe it then accept it. If not, or you can't, then leave that faith. Simple, no strings.
@aaronlee75 I repeat: You'll not find a single line of scripture telling Bahá'ís to question the validity of the Bahá'í teachings. Not a single verse that intimates critical thinking.
On the contrary, Bahá'ís are always told to not consider ideas contrary to the Bahá'í teachings.
"Contemplation" implies Bahá'ís searching for ways to accept or apply the Bahá'í law, not critically examine it.
Your assumption that "this is the way religion works" merely shows you've bought into dogmatism.
@aaronlee75 If a religion is advocating blind obedience as sufficient, then that religion is dangerous and (at the very least) false, even if it "allows" its critically thinking members to leave.
@mavaddat to contemplate: to view or consider something, looking at all angles, to get a better understanding of. (This includes questioning, because you cannot look at all angles or POVs without doing so.)
To discuss this fully would require much more space than is allowed in a short video blog.
I have found my faith to be extremely thought provoking and encouraging of critical thinking. I'd love to discuss it in detail further.
It's a bit short sighted to call 1 (or all?) religion false.
@aaronlee75 That's your interpretation, not supported by scripture.
The Universal House of Justice says, for example, that Bahais should try to understand the Bahai laws, but if they cannot understand them (or the laws outright seem bad), then the Bahais should just assume that this conclusion is due to their own limited understanding.
In this way, the dogmatism becomes entrenched.
I am concluding that the Bahai Faith is false after much investigation. Nothing shortsighted about it.
@aaronlee75 You could dismiss it as "subjective," but the fact is that while you have to stretch the meaning of the word "contemplate" to match your values, there are dozens of quotations in the Bahai scripture encouraging Bahais to be close-minded, dogmatic, and blindly obey.
See mavaddat {.} homestead {.} com/files/BahaiDogmatism{.}html
@mavaddat I meant that our individual experiences are subjective...and that likewise we draw our own different interpretations from our own seperate lives and POVs.
I don't think that I do stretch the meaning of the word contemplate...we are still to (continually) seek truth on our own.
As far as laws that we don't yet understand...there are reasons to follow them, things such as unforseen circumstances for not following them. I can provide examples from the last 50 years in US culture.
@aaronlee75 There's no scriptural corroboration of your interpretation of "contemplate."
The fact that we often realize in retrospect that there were good rules for us to follow in the past, which we could not have understood then is not a reason to follow rules *now* that we don't understand.
Religious people often have a very difficult time understanding this:
We aren't warranted in following unexplained rules *now* just because we can see in retrospect it would've been good to do so.
@aaronlee75 The Bahá'í Faith supports investigation of truth for non-Bahá'ís who are interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It never advocates open-mindedness or critical thinking from Bahá'ís themselves toward their own religion. Look at the scripture. You won't find a single verse in which any of the authors suggest that Bahá'ís question anything about the official Bahá'í dogmas. On the contrary, Bahá'ís are repeatedly told not to question or even think too much about the reason for the laws.
What else is found in nature? Canabilizing one's own children is. To say that something is moral because it is mirrored in nature isn't really valid.
To say a faith is "man made" because of a particular teaching...that likewise invalidates all of the other Abrahamic religions.
One thing that makes us human, not animal, is that we choose to follow the urges that we want to...and make our society what we collectively wish it to be.
@aaronlee75 I didn't say that any action is acceptable or moral because it is "found in nature."
I am arguing against that position.
It is the Bahá'í Faith that says (mistakenly) that homosexuality is against nature, and therefore, wrong.
This line of reasoning is not just based on a false premise, but it's totally fallacious. That's my point. You just confirmed it by admitting that nature (by itself) has nothing to do whatever with morality. Thank you!
@grail68 Historically speaking both groups did take part in those activities...early Jews were polygamists...and Christians did practice slavery...even up to the 1800s. It's fine if a faith did those things it condones at some point in it's history. It's not fine if that community does what it condemns after condemning it. That's hypocrasy.
i did not declare being gay to the assembly. no reason for why i should. i have not chosen to be gay. i still practise my faith, my family accept me for who i am and i just want to make it clear to everyone that i was born and raised by a loving family anyone can ask for..... explain to me why/how can someone like me be gay? since i can remember i was attracted to the same sex.. i did try countless of times to "swing the other way" but physically i cudnt!
I want to thank you for this video and for your opinion! Really! Because it provoked a brain storm and a reflection over this theme!!! Sorry if i offend you!!!
Keep on studying the Bahai's writings and meditate over them! The independent search of truth is obligatory for every human!!!
and one more! Even fizics say that two magnets with the same polarity are pushed off one by another!!!! I mean that the nature gives us a lot of prototypes! A magnet can not exist just with one polarity! And these polarities are contrary! Like a man and woman!! Without this the world wood not exist! the reproduction will not be possible! So, as i sad, homosexuality is not naturally, and do not assure a prosperity of Humankind!
But what for you means discrimination!? If i will say that a man with mental disabilities, or corporal disabilities is some like sick it will be the discrimination? if i will say that canibalism is kind of wildness,that is not normal nowdays,or that The killers are sick you will approach me as a discriminator?
This is To all that do not believe there is a GOD.
Pls check this out. This is proof behind a doubtt for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Our differences will be known in the next life! Lets work on our spirituality on this earth. All our differences will be made clear when we pass to the next existence. Don't you want to be ready? May God guide you!
on youtube search for: Near Death Experience of Renee Pasarow
O yeah and the word 'disability?' WHERE? What is a Handicap? HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED HORSE RACING? You have ALL misunderstood the term Handicap. GOD BLESS YOU!
@mavaddat Did you really think that homosexuality is beautiful!? This is not naturaly and the nature of man do not provide the possibility of such couple! Physically is impossible to propagate, more over, a lot of disease are from such couples! is not good to be against nature and it is illogical.
@mavaddat Religion is against nature...it is something that is not found in any other creature other than Man. It is one of our defining characteristics...and perhaps the strongest motivator in building civilizations. Is religion a "bad" thing? If carried to excess, then yes. The same is true of anything else though. When it HASN'T been carried to excess history shows without a doubt that it has been a very positive thing. Science&engineering are also against nature. Man shouldn't fly...
@aaronlee75 Man is not a creature. Man is a gender. Humanity is a species of animals that uniquely achieved religion (and mass genocide, for that matter). Every species has unique characteristics. Humans are not the only unique species.
Religion (moderate or not) is always "bad" in the sense that it is attempted morality or science and based on manifest falsehood.
Anyway, you recognize my point that what is natural (or unnatural) is not the same as what is good (or bad). That is enough...
@mavaddat Man, Human; they were synonyms until sometime in the last 30 years.
Many species are in ways unique. No other species though has attempted anything like going to the moon or discovering the underlying rules of nature.
"manifest falsehood?" To deal with people justly, to give to the poor, to promote harmony, and to work to seek knowledge that is helpful for humanity; I suppose these could be considered bad teachings.
good/bad is an opinion; perhaps a judgement on what's beneficial
@aaronlee75 The fact that men do not represent humanity is the insight missing from the patriarchal pretense that "man" is synonymous with "human."
Every social animal infers underlying rules of nature. Science explores the difference between humans and animals. It turns out, there's no sharp distinction. I suggest looking into it.
The basis for all religions is manifest falsehoods (God, afterlife, soul, where morality comes from), not the actions to which religions motivate people sometimes.
I can't tolerate this video, being that "Errrrrrr..." is the most frequently used word! Sorry but think about scripting, rehearsing and re-recording. I am interested, as a Bisexual and a Baha'i, but please sort this out mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Also at about 3.15 you start to use the word 'wrong.' This is your interpretation. Wrong is an unhealthy word. Think about changing it. Cheers. XX
Baha'is do not discriminate against homosexuals. It's as simple as that; it would go against our main principle which is to "unite all the peoples of the earth".
So when Shoghi Effendi writes, "homosexuality is highly condemned and often a great trial and cause of suffering to a person" and calls homosexuality "spiritually condemned," a "shameful sexual aberration" that is "against nature," he's unifying peoples?
When Shoghi Effendi requires that "flagrantly homosexual" Bahá'ís be "expelled from the community" he's just saying to each his own?
Seems fair to you say you don't know the Bahá'í religion, no?
i am a bahai and reading and hearing all this about being a homosexual is a disease simply sickens me to the bone .... one big lesson i have learnt from baha'ullah's teachings is that we are the leaves of one tree and the fruits of one branch ... and then saying that being gay is unnatural when god has created us is like saying god has created a faulty! its absolutely disgusts me as it has made me feel so expelled and believe u me! us homosexuals are no different to those heterosexuals.
@nidoandme There is an incredible dichotomy between the presentation of the Baha'i Faith by believers and the actual writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah which are really quite violent, sexist, prejudice, and ignorant of science.
@MillerGenuineCraft Very true, Miller. In fairness to Bahá'ís, I think most of them intuitively realize this and are embarrassed by those anti-science, prejudiced, and sexist passages. They try to ignore or interpret them away...
i see this matter is taken very seriously...bahai faith is a solution for the world problems and does not interfere with your personal sexual life..because your sexuality wether deviated to nature. does not thwart the progress of peace on earth but it a matter that you should discuss with a doctor. just like any other psycho disease. since bahai faith s hand in hand with science one should refuge to science too..doctors and 99% of them have firmly explained homosexuality disease and its negative
You are ignorant. Every accredited American medical and psychological institution agrees there's no medical, psychological, or social reason to believe gay sex is immoral or unhealthy. This includes the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the National Association of Social Workers to name a few. Only religious dogmatists think gay sex immoral.
@mavaddat If these people think it is OK for one guy to suck another guys penis or stick his penis up another guys rectum then their credibility just went out the window with the flat earth societies credibility.
@waiotahi52 The fact you think those are remotely comparable suggests your credibility was never even in the window. It's been left outside. In the cold of the Bronze Age. Go back and find it?
Lol
smoosav9 2 days ago
:-)
smoosav9 3 days ago
Thanks for allowing me to frankly share some information with you!!!
Peace!
smoosav9 4 days ago
@smoosav9 I have deleted your lengthy quotations. Once again, I kindly request that you please do not advertise your religious scripture on my YouTube channel. Thank you!
mavaddat 4 days ago
Dear friend, your objection to the Baha'i Faith is baseless, and requires long discussions, IF we are honest and truly want to bring about a sense of understanding to the issue you have brought up. This is not something that I can just throw out a few words and refute a baseless objection you have posted. Also, no sincere scholar or man of intelligence would confuse the statements made by the Supreme Body of the Baha'i Faith with the intention of selling "commercial products" you have posted!!!!
smoosav9 4 days ago
@smoosav9 You haven't even said anything that disagrees with me so far.
We both agree that the Bahá'í Faith judges openly gay people as "against nature" and participating in a "shameful sexual aberration."
We both agree that Bahá'ís are obligated to mindlessly, blindly obey their religious doctrines without question.
My objection is simply that there aren't any good reasons for the Bahá'í Faith's position on homosexuality. How can you call that baseless when you haven't even argued against it?
mavaddat 4 days ago
I have NOT agreed to even a single statement you have mentioned!!! :-) I only posted my sources where I get my information, so you can see that it is not just my opinion. But you consider those sources to be "lengthy" and too long! :-) That's okay my friend!
smoosav9 4 days ago
@smoosav9 Oh sorry! I thought we both agreed that Bahá'ís are obligated to unquestioningly obey the doctrines that their scripture says Bahá'u'lláh prescribed. Although I know it has a negative connotation for you, I think any fair-minded person would agree that counts as "blind obedience."
It is also true the Bahá'í Faith judges openly gay people as "against nature" and participating in a "shameful sexual aberration." So we should be able to agree there.
mavaddat 4 days ago
@smoosav9 By the way, I already know all the sources you quoted. There isn't any need to copy-and-paste them here. You only have to refer to them. Believe me, I have read more scholarship about the Bahá'í Faith and the Bahá'í scripture than you will know in your lifetime. ; )
mavaddat 4 days ago
The quotation I have posted from Baha'u'llah indicates that after (NOT BEFORE) a person recognizes that Divine Physician, he has no right to question him. That is if one understands the infallibility of the Messengers of God. If you decide to take the infallibility under question, then that's a whole different story. I have seen non Bahais who sincerely question things, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's Independent Investigation of Truth!
smoosav9 5 days ago
@smoosav9 I kindly request that you do not SPAM my YouTube video with lengthy quotations from your religion or commercial products. This is a discussion, not an advertisement space.
mavaddat 5 days ago
"The divine Physician hath the pulse of mankind within His almighty grasp. At one time He may well deem fit to sever certain infected limbs, that the disease may not spread to other parts of the body. This would be the very essence of mercy and compassion, and to none is given the right to object, for He is indeed the All-Knowing, the All-Seeing."
---Baha'u'llah
smoosav9 1 week ago
@smoosav9 This quotation shows quite clearly — contrary to the religion's rhetoric about "independent investigation" — that Bahá'ís are explicitly required to blindly obey the teachings of their religion. Thank you for pasting here in full.
mavaddat 6 days ago
Independent investigation of truth is the principle in which one uses to find the Divine Teacher for this age. Baha'u'llah is the object of that search....but once we find him and ACCEPT HIM, I can't question His authority. I CAN NO LONGER QUESTION HIM thinking of the Independent Investigation of Truth. Baha'u'llah has come to create a new World, not go along with the norms of the society! The Baha'i Faith is not a buffet that you can pick and choose what like and what you don't like!
smoosav9 5 days ago
@smoosav9 "but once we find him and ACCEPT HIM, I can't question His authority. " Yes, we already agree that Bahá'ís are blindly obedient of their religion. It is commonly accepted knowledge that Bahá'ís are morally obligated to abstain from critically examining their religion once they commit to it. I don't think we need to argue about this!
mavaddat 5 days ago
No dear friend! This quotation shows that after we accept a Divine Messenger we do not sit around and stipulate and question Him ("the All-Knowing, the All-Seeing"). We do not question a competent physician after we have fully and independently investigated His credentials and have agreed to him taking out a deadly tumor out of our body. We have faith in Him and fully trust Him, even though at times, things might NOT be totally clear to us!
smoosav9 5 days ago
@smoosav9 Actually, Bahá'ís are as willing to get second-opinions or file malpractice lawsuits against once-considered "competent" doctors or physicians as non-Bahá'ís.
So you would agree that you are either lying or mistaken about Bahá'ís never questioning the credentials of doctors they have deemed credible, right?
Also, don't you agree that Bahá'ís are only unquestioningly (i.e., blindly) obedient of their religious scripture, not any human authorities?
mavaddat 5 days ago
My friend, where ever you live, whatever organization you belong to, even this youtube that you have signed yourself up with, there are RULES that you have to follow. You cannot run away from it! Say what you like, it doesn't matter! World Religions are no different. They have rules too! Even a jungle has its own rules and laws. You want a religion that conforms to YOU.....then you be happy. :-) Of course it is your right to want such a thing! Just don't impose it on others!
smoosav9 4 days ago
@smoosav9 Relativism is a terrible accusation. And exceptionalism becomes just another relative jungle. Sorry, your new revelation is the old lie.Genesis 3 you little godman you. Spiritually illigitmate spiritual children of a Polygamist, Polytheist, and Pantheist. You would try to instruct the mind of God? yes you do, because your continually acting like you want to be like Him but are lost. Christ Jesus Christ, The Only Begotten son of God has already removed the separation between God...
TheFisherman57 3 days ago
@TheFisherman57 - and Man. and irregardlees of what you say concerning a worldview is an aberration.
TheFisherman57 3 days ago
@smoosav9 Sorry, but the Bahá'í Faith doesn't claim to be making up arbitrary "rules" that you have to follow to be a member. It is claiming to be laying down the irrevokable, undeniable LAWS of a humanity — whether Bahá'í or not.
Are you really so clueless and ignorant about your own religion?!
mavaddat 3 days ago
Dear friend,
Whether you decide to sign up in a health club, or register yourself at a university, or decide to get a driver's license or whatever.....there are laws. If you don't like it, then no one is forcing you to be in a certain religion. Baha'u'llah is the Divine Physician for this age. Question him all you want before you become one of his followers (a Baha'i), once a person becomes a Baha'i, he or she does not sit down and question the infallible words of the Author of the Faith!!! :-)
smoosav9 1 week ago
@smoosav9 Yes, this is a very common defence tactic among Bahá'ís: Don't worry! The Bahá'í Faith is like a sports club that you can choose to join or choose to ignore! We aren't demanding other people obey our laws!
However, this is a misrepresentation of the actual religion. Bahá'u'lláh says that his laws "must be faithfully obeyed by all." He also says that "All must diligently observe them."
So you are simply being deceitful by presenting your religion as though it were like a sports club.
mavaddat 6 days ago
Please study the Faith more carefully! Study the covenant of Baha'u'llah! Unfortunately you think God's Faith is some man-made compositions of different things that anyone can come along and change it because some aspects of it might not conform to your desires. There is NO SECRET TACTIC!!!! You are welcome to the faith no matter who you are, but see what the laws are and you are welcomed to leave at any time. NO compulsion! NO TACTICS! :-)
smoosav9 5 days ago
@smoosav9 I didn't say the tactic was secret. I also didn't say that Bahá'ís think of their religion as made of human compositions. Obviously, just like Scientologists, Branch Davidians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and all religious people, Bahá'ís believe they are following the word of God or an infallible prophet. Why do you assume I am unfamiliar with the Bahá'í Faith?
mavaddat 5 days ago
You are unfamiliar with the Baha'i Faith, because with your response, obviously, you don't know the difference between a sect or denomination as suppose to a World Religion. Check the Encyclopedia of Britannica, 1992, and see if it says, Baha'i Faith is a sect like Mormons and etc, or is it a World Religion! Huge difference!
Arguments in the Baha'i Faith are forbidden (another rule), and my conversation with you is becoming exactly just that! I have no further thing to say my friend! Thank you.
smoosav9 4 days ago
@smoosav9 I never claimed that Bahá'ís believe they are a sect. My point was that I know that Bahá'ís believe they are following the word of God — just like those other religions. Makes sense?
I guess English isn't your first language, because you seem to have trouble following what I am writing.
Also, none of the religions I listed claim to be "sects" of any other religion, either. You can look that up in the Encyclopaedia Britannica too!
mavaddat 4 days ago
Dear friend, in my last post, I said, "I have no further thing to say"... Yet you claim, you know and understand English??!!! :-) You have a very hard time following your own reasoning! Please study more and be honest and fair in your statements! Once again, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me.
smoosav9 3 days ago
@smoosav9 I never asked you to keep commenting. One thing you learn when you study English is that a person is free to respond even if the other person says they don't want to respond anymore. See? You don't want to respond doesn't mean I have to stop responding. Best of luck in your education.
mavaddat 3 days ago
@smoosav9 "Arguments in the Baha'i Faith are forbidden (another rule)"
We haven't even disagreed about anything! All you've said is that Bahá'ís are not allowed to think about whether their religion might be wrong, and I agree. Where is the argument??
mavaddat 4 days ago
Splendid video.
raulramon2 2 months ago
I did not attempt to list any other racist organizations as I thought the KKK served the purpose fine. LDS did not teach blacks were evil. They taught that they were cursed which I suppose can be construed as racist but does not necessarily have to be. You are again casting aspersions at me. Cartoon version of history? Two dimensional? That is subjective. Debate me on substantive issues.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 Right, the LDS were an officially racist organization. If you think it's doubtful whether saying all Black people are "cursed" is racist, then you are clueless.
The fact that you immediately think of the KKK and no other racist organization suggests to me that you have a cartoon version of history.
I never mentioned the KKK. Only you did. This suggests to me a lack of historical awareness on your part.
mavaddat 6 months ago
They were racist insofar as they barred membership to blacks. Please note that I said "(it (being allegedly accursed)) can be construed as racist but does not necessarily have to be." It could have been a ham-fisted explanation as to why blacks suffered. Or it could be something else. All I am saying is that all people involved in this edict did not necessarily have the same reasons for it.. One man's Star Fleet Prime Directive is anothor's apartheid.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 They also taught that Black people, being cursed, cannot go to heaven.
However, all this is tangential and irrelevant. The point was just that voluntary membership in an organization does not absolve that organization of the responsibility to be free from misinformation, prejudice, or hatred.
mavaddat 6 months ago
You have won the secular argument already. Be happy with that. New York just legalized homosexual marriage.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
I merely disagree with you and have not called you "stupid" or suggested you are mentally ill. We are discussing the religious aspects of this prohibition. What scriptures do you use to make your point? Bahuillah's writings? Or from the other Bahai prophets? If your arguments are external to Bahaiism I believe they are irrelevant but not invalid. At the very least, the Bahais will have to remove the Abrahamic aspects of their religion to come in line with your desired goal.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 You can search the Internet to find all the sources for the scriptures I cite. Google it and learn.
mavaddat 6 months ago
Lastly, let me say something positive about the non-sexual aspects of male homosexuality. My best friend in graduate school was homosexual and I loved the way his mind worked, his grace and charm and his sense of humor. And I have two other friends who are also homosexual. One is still practicing and the other is celibate and a member of my church; their company is vastly to be preferred to than my supposed red neck allies.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
My final critique has to do with certain types of behavior. Have you ever seen the activities at homosexual marches? Have you noticed how depraved they are? Have you seen the NAMBLA floats?
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
On a practical level, male homosexuality/sodomy is extremely dangerous behavior from an epidemiological standpoint. The average male homosexual commits sodomy with hundreds of men per year and consumes approximately three pounds of fecal matter in the process. Admittedly this is not the case for female homosexuals.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 You are spewing unresearched, imaginary dogma. What are your sources for how much "fecal matter" gay people consume?
Even if it were true (which it is not), not all gay men enjoy anal sex or employ high risk sexual behaviour (no more than straight men).
Besides, people are free to choose to engage in dangerous activities. Being dangerous doesn't make it immoral. They are mutually consenting adults, not hurting anyone any more than "straight" people.
mavaddat 6 months ago
Lastly, I should respond to your ad hominem attacks. You state that something is wrong with me because I disagree with you. You also mentioned stupid somewhere as well. I disagree with you on two, maybe three levels. The author of the Old and New Testaments says that homosexuality/sodomy is malum in se. I do not understand why. I may even disagree with God. But that's what he said and there have been numerous instances wherein I have come to understand something I rejected in the past.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 Ad hominem is when you tell someone their wrong because of some personal fault of theirs. I never said you were stupid or something was wrong with you because you disagreed. I concluded that you have some severe reading comprehension disability because you never understood (and still fail to understand) what I wrote.
Ad hominem is not the same as insulting someone. I may have insulted you, but I never committed ad hominem.
mavaddat 6 months ago
What did I fail to comprehend? Restate your question.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
What is wrong with me? I am an Orthodox Christian. The Bible is my guide on the issue. If, however, I came to the conclusion that there were a need for a new religion, I would not care about homosexuality/sodomy. I would not promote, but would probably be mute on the subject. There is the MCC church and the Episcopal church. The former promotes homosexuality/sodomy and the latter affirms it. Start a Bahai chapter that affirms it. They have progressive revelation, so it should be easy!
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
Misinformation and hatred? KKK? You implied a voluntary race-bating organization of which the KKK is the prime example.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 The fact that you cannot think of any racist organizations other than the KKK is your failing, not mine. Many secular institutions (e.g., country clubs) and religions have held and promoted racist ideologies (e.g., The Church of Latter Day Saints taught that Black people were inherently evil until the 1960's). I never mentioned the KKK or implied anything about them. You have a two-dimensional, cartoon version of history of racism in your mind, so you immediately think KKK .
mavaddat 6 months ago
I believe in banning the Burqa and invite you to join my Facebook group, so please do not accuse me of being a misogynist. Your argument is with God-breathed scripture which in Judaism and Christianity is clear on the subject of sodomy. I do not know what else Bahaism adds to this, so there may be more nastiness of which I am not aware.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
My wife has black skin which is immutable. God made her that way. God gave me -- or left me over to -- a number of negative personality traits, ie original sin, which I am striving to exorcize. Have you ever embraced your negative qualities as a thought experiment? Have you given vent to your depraved nature? I have and I do not recommend it. As far as women's rights go, I am 90% NOW certified, an A-. I am a strong critic of Islam and do not understand Muhammed's inclusion in the Bahai Pantheon.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 The only reason why I mentioned racism or sexism was to refute your totally irrelevant first point, which was that since the Bahá'í Faith is a voluntary organization, its ignorant prejudicial hatred of gay people cannot be wrong. We can agree that your argument was stupid. I never accused you of being sexist or racist. Seriously, what is wrong with you?
The point is that there's nothing depraved or immoral or unnatural about homosexuality. You are ignorant. Learn more.
mavaddat 6 months ago
Last time I checked, none of these religions said anything more than that one should not commit sodomy. I am not aware of any Christian group -- with the exception of the so-called Westboro Bapists -- that uses pejorative terminology against people who have taken the decision to live a sodomy-centered lifestyle. I understand your point regarding voluntary organizations not being exempt from criticism, but please do not equate the KKK with those who reject homosexuality.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 Hate can only be in pejorative slurs? Calling gay people's orientation a "shameful sexual aberration" that is "against nature" (as the Bahá'í Faith does) is just as hateful as calling them "fags."
Homosexuality is not "sodomoy centred" any more than heterosexuality is "vaginal penetration centred". Has your religious upbringing rendered you stupid?
I never equated anything to the KKK. What is wrong with you? Voluntary membership does not legitimate misinformation and hatred.
mavaddat 6 months ago
Why do so many of you homosexuals seek inclusion in voluntary organizations that want nothing to do with you? Why don't you form your own religion or join the Episcopal Church. Sodomy is always immoral as when practiced by two same sexers, it cannot be within the context of Holy Matrimony. Every other sin has been practiced since time immemorial. True on sterile marriages.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
@thermionic1234567 Are you assuming I'm homosexual? Are you suggesting that non-gay people cannot care about gay people's rights and feelings? Do you not care about any type of people with whom you are not affiliated? Is that your "morality"?
Also, does racism become less vile if it is practiced and taught by organizations whose membership is voluntary?
Does sexism become less vile if it is practiced and taught by organizations whose membership is voluntary?
If not, then why are you an idiot?
mavaddat 6 months ago
Yes, I thought you were homosexual; & of course people who are not members of a particular group can be concerned with the fates of others.Homosexuality is considered wrong in Bahaism, Christianity and Judaism.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
let's get rid of this idiotic Bahai faith!
marcohorowitz8 6 months ago
some of the passages you are reading is about child molestation, not homosexuality. among many gays there are some that are bahais. they maintain celibacy just like an unmarried heterosexual. and since bahaism only recognizes marriage btwn man & woman that can be permanent for any lifestyle. using evolution, fitness is also set by procreation, so that would be why is unnatural. man & woman can adopt. bahai believe what child needs are fulfilled by man and woman. religions have laws. get over it
sagbbpleasures 6 months ago
@sagbbpleasures Which of the passages that I read do you think were about child molestation? Can you specify?
The Bahá'í Faith teaches hateful, shaming and false dogmas about human sexuality. That is wrong even if there are celibate gay Bahá'ís who consent to live by those dogmas.
Your ignorance of biology (evolution) is apparent. Homosexuality is prevalent in every social animal, including more than 500 species other than humans. It's not unnatural in any scientific sense. Educate yourself.
mavaddat 6 months ago
@mavaddat the one that mentions that feeling shame for humanity, and pen wont write because of it. that's the one you are mentioning. besides your insults to bahai is not constructive. if bahai is hateful to you, you just hate all religions, and I find you more intolerant than any religious fanatic. the only difference is you fond your own religion and it starts with intolerance. we live in this world too, we seen so much hate than you can imagine, we have seen hate, including yours.
sagbbpleasures 6 months ago
@sagbbpleasures Shoghi Effendi, who was assigned the role of "infallibly" interpreting Bahá'u'lláh, says that Bahá'u'lláh meant all forms of "sodomy" and homosexuality in that passage, "We shrink for very shame..."
So even though it may have been about child molesting, your religion's authority declared that it was about homosexuality. Are you really that ignorant about your own religion? Or are you just disingenuous? Or dishonest?
I am intolerant of arbitrary bigotry. That's true. And good.
mavaddat 6 months ago
@mavaddat I think it's very good that Bahá'u'lláh established some new laws. I agree with the Bahá'í Faith that humanity's social progress has reached a degree at which old ways of doing things are not adequate to sustain such progress.
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 Bahá'u'lláh didn't establish new laws. He codified the prejudices of his age.
But this is a separate discussion.
The point is that to assume that homophobia is divine because it came from a guy claiming to speak for an invisible sky-deity is no more a reason to blindly obey anti-gay marriage laws than pretending that seeing certain "mystical patterns" in spilled chicken blood is a reason to condemn being gay.
These don't qualify as "reasons" just because they're given as excuses.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat "Can you see that rules restricting certain kinds of behaviours should have reasons?" Exactly! The Bahá'í Faith has reasons for its marriage laws. It's just that you don't find the reasons acceptable, and that's okay. You have a different paradigm and different beliefs, and that's perfectly fine. :)
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 Let's be clear about this: The Bahá'í Faith doesn't have reasons for its discrimination against gay people. It has dogmas (e.g., being gay is "against nature") and prejudices (e.g., being gay is "a shameful sexual aberration").
You cannot and will not defend the dogmas and prejudice of the Bahá'í Faith. You simply accept them in spite of their having no rational, ethical, or moral support.
In other words, you have no reason (that you've given) for your obedience of the Bahá'í laws.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat That is correct. I do feel comfortable and confident in my point of view. I've been learning about the Bahá'í Faith for nearly twenty years, and although I'm no expert and never will be, it makes sense to me. My brain and my heart both tell me that it's what's right for me. And I'm content with that. :D
Best regards
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 If your "brain and heart" feel comfortable with arbitrarily discriminating against gay couples, you have a problem. That "makes sense" to you, but you cannot explain why. So, it doesn't really make sense as much as feel comfortable.
When it comes down to it, you're willing to ignorantly trust the commands of a bunch of Middle Eastern dudes who were merely expressing the prejudices of their day.
If that's not blind obedience, I don't know what is.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat Again, it all boils down to perspective and what beliefs one accepts. I don’t feel comfortable at all with arbitrary discrimination, and that’s not what I BELIEVE Bahá’í marriage laws are. I believe that the restriction on Bahá’í marriage is spiritually beneficial, just like other restrictions outside the Bahá’í Faith. For example, I hope you agree that limiting the legal driving age is a good idea. But is this limitation discrimination based on age?
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 There's a good reason for restricting the driving age. Again, you seem to be baffled by the point that isn't any reason given for restricting marriage against gay couples.
Can you see that rules restricting certain kinds of behaviours should have reasons? Do you see how they can have reasons? From the way you're writing, it seems like this has never occurred to you — that there might actually be reasons for laws...
mavaddat 7 months ago
@clex19 Frankly I agree...There are other teachings given in which we are told the reasons for them will become manifest in time.
On a side note: It'll be interesting to see if the Iranian govt falls this summer. It's enjoyable watching Baha'i prophecy being fullfilled.
aaronlee75 7 months ago
Comment removed
clex19 7 months ago
@mavaddat Also, I agree that complying with the Bahá’í restriction on marriage between a woman and man is blind obedience. But blind obedience is not necessarily bad. When young children blindly obey their parents, oftentimes the results of this blind obedience are positive for the children. The morality of Bahá’í marriage laws cannot be objectively determined. Not everything can be supported by science or logic; some things are just up to the individual to decide for herself or himself.
clex19 7 months ago
That's true: Blind obedience isn't always bad. There is a small fraction of a chance it can be good. It's like forming your beliefs by flipping randomly through a book and picking random sentences to believe.
Otherwise, yeah... it's always bad to believe without reason.
It's particularly ironic because Bahá'u'lláh claimed to have abolished the dogmatism of Islam, but he just reinstituted it in a different form.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat I agree. That makes perfect sense, from a non-Bahá'í point of view. But Bahá'ís believe that it is best for the spiritual health of all to limit marriage to a man and a woman. I understand you do not agree with this, and I respect that. Believe what you want to believe. I'm just saying that this whole topic depends on which point of view is taken. :)
Peace.
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 Right! Except the difference between us is that I think "points of view" should be based on empathy, reason, and reflection whereas you seem to be comfortable choosing your "point of view" like you choose your socks or your underwear.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat Well, you must agree that, in a general sense, there should be some restrictions on marriage. Would you say that only allowing certain age groups (e.g. only those who or at or above 18 years of age) to marry is discrimination based on age?
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 The objection here is not against "discrimination," per se, but *invidious* discrimination. Do you know what invidious discrimination is?
It is the unfair or arbitrary refusal of some rights to a certain group.
The point is that there's no good reason for denying gay people the right to marry within the Bahá'í Faith.
mavaddat 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Furthermore, from a Bahá'í perspective, restricting Bahá'í marriage to a man and a woman is best for the spiritual well-being of all and is not meant to be discrimination in any way, shape, or form. However, from a non-Bahá’í perspective, the argument that this restriction is discrimination is sound and logical. From a non-Baha’i perspective, you have been very logical. For that I commend you.
clex19 7 months ago
Chastity is mandatory, regardless of sexual tendencies.
Search bnasaa on Google to find out more.
MrJapilz 8 months ago
@MrJapilz Except "chastity" is a red herring, isn't it? Since we're talking about whether openly romantic gay relationships (marriages) are allowed in the Bahá'í Faith, pretending that this is an issue of chastity is just disingenuous and dishonest.
mavaddat 8 months ago
@mavaddat The whole purpose of a marriage is to create children (look on the bnasaa web site), so entering a marriage that (willingly by the participants) does not create children is frowned upon. This applies to everyone. A married man and women must be chaste in their own sexual relationship, so how is it possible to occur in a gay relationship since creating a child is obviously not the goal? Search bnasaa on google to access the site with all of the quotes that are there.
MrJapilz 8 months ago
@MrJapilz Bahá'ís don't get married just to procreate, but to express their mutual love and commitment. The pretense that marriage requires offspring is an excuse to deny gay relationships.
The Universal House of Justice explicitly states, "A couple who are physically incapable of having children may, of course, marry, since the procreation of children is not the only purpose of marriage" (3 November, 1982). So denying marriage to gay people is clearly arbitrary discrimination — homophobia.
mavaddat 8 months ago
@mavaddat With regard to birth control an individual asked the beloved Guardian a similar question in 1935, and the Guardian’s secretary replied on his behalf on 14 October 1935:
"For Bahá'u'lláh explicitly reveals in His Book of laws that the very purpose of marriage is the procreation of children who, when grown up, will be able to know God and to recognize and observe His Commandments and Laws as revealed through His Messengers."
MrJapilz 7 months ago
@MrJapilz With all due respect, you seem confused by the English langauge. I never wrote anything about "birth control." You're swatting at thin air.
I cited an explicit endorsement from the Universal House of Justice of marriages that are INCAPABLE of producing children.
The one and only difference between those infertile marriages and gay marriages is that the couple is of the same sex. That is blatant, bald-faced bigotry. It's just hypocrisy. Simply a fear of gay people — homophobia.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat Please read the full letter. In the sentence right before the beginning of your quote, it is clearly stated that "the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation of children." Basically what your quote is saying is that a couple should not be forbidden to marry just because they are not able to procreate. This letter doesn't even mention homosexuals; the topic is "trial marriage."
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 You really don't get it, do you?
Even if the primary purpose of marriage is procreation (an utterly asinine injunction to begin with), the Universal House of Justice EXPLICITLY allows marriages that are incapable of producing children ONLY IF THE COUPLE HAVE DIFFERING SEXUAL PARTS.
This is undeniable hypocrisy.
The kind of bits you have under your pants is a completely arbitrarily basis on which to deny people marriage. Do you see this? Can you even understand the argument?
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat The Writings are clear, as the video says (with quotes from the Bahá'í Writings). Bahá'ís should not marry a person of the same sex, and sex is not allowed outside of marriage regardless of who the partner is. Bahá'ís who are gay just have to follow the rules like everyone else. Being gay is not condoned, and gays have rights. Should anyone have urges to have sex with the same sex, those feelings are to be controlled. It is clear. Ignorance is one of the worst problems humans face.
ABahaiPointGroup 7 months ago
@ABahaiPointGroup No one is saying the Bahá'í Writings are ambiguous.
The point is that the Bahá'í Writings are clearly bigoted. The Bahá'í marriage laws are invidiously discriminatory.
The Bahá'í Faith has to change its own laws to be a moral religion.
Saying, "if you don't like it, then leave the religion," is like pretending we should accept bigotry as long as the groups that practice it all agree to be bigoted. That's just dumb.
mavaddat 7 months ago
@mavaddat IMHO, having Bahá'í marriage confined to a woman and a man is a condition placed upon marriage itself, not upon a particular group of Bahá'ís. In fact, this restriction indiscriminately applies to all Bahá'ís, regardless of sex or sexual orientation. But you can look at this any way you want; to each his own. :)
clex19 7 months ago
@clex19 Your logic is clearly nonsense, though. Do you see this?
It's like creating a racist definition of Bahá'í marriage that only allows marriage between White Bahá'ís and then pretending that it's not racist because it's "a condition placed upon marriage itself, not upon a particular group of Bahá'ís, regardless of skin colour or race."
Do you see how that's the way you're arguing? Do you see how that's a completely stupid way of trying to deny that Bahá'í marriage is discriminatory?
mavaddat 7 months ago
Comment removed
clex19 7 months ago
@mavaddat 1. If you wish your words to reach the intellectual audience, I suggest you avoid criticizing others constantly an provide proof from the Bahá'í Writings. It is clear you are upset (if you are not, then please calm down and avoid the name calling).
2. A fundamental reality of religion is the concept of chastity.
3. The definition of a homophobe does not fit what I have mentioned. Homosexuals are not to be mistreated based on their sexuality by anyone - that's justice.
That is all.
MrJapilz 7 months ago
@mavaddat Continuing on that note: "Marriage is thus, according to the Bahá'í Teachings, primarily a social and moral act. It has a purpose which transcends the immediate personal needs and interests of the parties. Birth control, except in certain exceptional cases, is therefore not permissible.” (With regard to birth control an individual asked the beloved Guardian a similar question in 1935, and the Guardian’s secretary replied on his behalf on 14 October 1935)
MrJapilz 7 months ago
There's nothing wrong with being gay and in time Bahais will surely come to accept the facts. A fundamental teaching of Bahais is to not judge people based on their gender and sexuality. as a bahai i just like to say that every religion has its flaws and the bahai faith is an extremely progressive religion for the time and the place it flourished... however science has proven to us that homosexuality does exist in nature and gays don't choose their lifestyle.
Delganster 8 months ago
Holy means Separate from those things that are in opposition to the Hope of God. Gods hope is to have reunion with you. Trade not that which is eternal for that which is transitory. follow not the fate of the world. It shall pass away. Gods hands are stretched out to receive you still. Repent my brother lest you lay down in sorrow. God wishes not that your reunion be at the end of a life lived in waywardness. Sorrow will be your reward. Seek him while he can be yet found that thy days may be sp
randallhoffman1 8 months ago
@randallhoffman1 You have mistaken the teachings of prejudiced men for the "word of God" and defined "goodness" according to those men's outdated, anachronistic bigotry.
Take your "goodness" with you to the grave on which you rest all your hopes. I won't be following you on that path.
mavaddat 8 months ago
My Brother if you one day seek to be free than herein is thy prayer. Pray. Holy Father I ask you to remove the weed of Desire from the Garden of my heart. I receive this that I ask by faith. I give you Holy Father all the Glory. All the Honor. All the praise. For thou art worthy to be praised. To honor thee in thy truth I ask this of thee in the name of thy Son Christ Jesus. Amen
Again with the warmest of Bahai Love your brother Randall Hoffman a Bahai. Be Thou Holy for I am Holy sayeth the Wo
randallhoffman1 8 months ago
@randallhoffman1 HOW IN THE HELL (and I do mean HELL) ARE YOU TRYING TO BLEND THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH THAT 5 FEET TALL DEMON-POSSESSED APOSTATE AND DECEIVER === BAHA U LLAH? YOU'RE TOTALLY DECEIVED. You better wake up son. JESUS CHRIST IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH & THE LIFE AND HE DON'T NEED NO "BLENDING" OF THAT DEAD SHORT DUDE BAHA U LLAH. BTW: BAHA U LLAH BODY IS IN HIS GRAVE AND HIS SOUL IS IN HELL! JESUS CHRIST IS THE RISEN, LORD AND SAVIOR AND THE ONLY ONE!
LPATWILLFILM 7 months ago
Yes true Baha'is are in agreement with God in regard to Homosexuality. Homosexual behavior is in opposition to the hope of God and if practiced only exposes ones stand against the design of God and if one does not repent of such behavior then indeed God will give the individual over to his homosexual behavior. But know thou this. If you turn from this behavior and love the Lord Your God with your Whole Heart and follow his precepts instead of your fleshly desires He is JUST TO FORGIVE and will
randallhoffman1 8 months ago
To say to you to get over it.. is one of those things easy to say but very hard to do. I would suggest you to continue to pay attention \o the problem but keep it very secret, never displaying it in public. And go with your life.
Beulah502 9 months ago
Hey man, wondering if you have done any videos on some of the sexist, violent, and fanatical laws in the kitab-i-aqdas?
MillerGenuineCraft 10 months ago
mavaddat...we could discuss the minutiae of this subject for a month and neither of us would benefit. From your POV religion, and therefore any system of morality based on one, is crap or at least extremely questionable. If there is some constructive conversation to be had, though, let me ask you a question. Why is it that you choose to attack Switzerland? (figuratively speaking)
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Haha OK, fair question. I understand your question as, Why criticize the Bahá'í Faith — surely one of the most progressive and (if nothing else) smallest religions in the world?!
There's not just one reason. First, I was a Bahá'í and it's important for me (for my own self-understanding, and for others to better understand me) to vocalize why I am no longer a Bahá'í. Also, I do believe that the Bahá'í Faith is hurting people where it doesn't need to. I should make a video about this.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat Ah ha...close enough then. As a former Baha'i you know that the definition of marriage etc was codified 100 years ago and isn't going to change. The Baha'i rules/laws only apply to Baha'is.
Non participation in politics means we'll never try to affect the larger outside societal struggle. There'll never be a Baha'i at any type of anti-gay rally, or supporting one. Likewise, anyone can leave the Faith for any conflict of conscience with it's teachings at any time.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Non-involvement with politics is impossible. Everyone votes. The fact that Bahá'í Faith support a bigoted stance on gay marriage means that there's just one more group espousing bigotry. As Carol Hanisch pointed out, there's is no boundary between "personal" and "political." The personal *is* political.
And Bahá'ís do attend anti-gay rallies. Google "Baha Uganda gay," for example.
I want to encourage more people to embrace a humanist stance and gracefully give up this religion.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat I should restate myselfe..."There should never be a Baha'i at any type of anti-gay rally, or supporting one." For a Baha'i to do so is openly condemned.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 You seem to overestimate the extent to which homophobia is propagated by attending anti-gay rallies causes as opposed to community members passively rejecting certain members for theis sexual orientation. You really don't see to understand (or else you grossly underestimate) the psychological damage that family members telling other gay family members that they are "spiritually diseased" can cause.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Oh, also Bahá'í laws are meant to apply to all humanity, because they are said to be God's laws for everyone (not just those who accept them).
This old trope that "Bahá'í laws are just for Bahá'ís" is a rhetorical move that the Universal House of Justice adopted (alone) to avoid the embarrassing situation of having to explain why God's laws are apparently so nonsensical.
I've written about this on my Livejournal, which you can find linked from my YouTube profile.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat Baha'i laws are meant for all humanity; yes those who follow them will reap the benefits of them.
"Baha'i laws are just for Baha'is," only Baha'is are oblidged, as part of their faith, to follow those laws.
If society follows those laws there will be benefits. If society dosen't then not. It's societies' choice though.
"Look both ways before crossing a street." Benefit, you won't be hit by a car. Don't follow it, you take your chances.
Laws are beneficial to all, if followed.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yes, that is precisely my point. The Bahá'í Faith claims to provide laws that benefit all who would follow them, yet there is no reason to believe that prohibiting gay people from marrying is in any way the least bit beneficial. On the contrary, there are a whole host of reasons to believe that it is positively harmful and hateful.
But Bahá'ís want it both ways. They want to be able to say that these laws are beneficial, but that we may not ask why or how upon "becoming Bahá'í."
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat As a former Baha'i you know that it's difficult for anyone to be permanently expelled unless they want to be by their own actions. You've made a break, fine...why not make it clean?
The Faith makes bridges where it can, and trys to make peace.
People don't have to agree with each other to be at peace with one another.
Did the Baha'is do you some great harm?
If you feel that way, then I apologize as much as I can.
If it's not for you, fine, find another way. Peace
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Yes, being raised a Bahá'í means I was made to accept philosophically (and psychologically) damaging assumptions.
But more importantly, the Bahá'í Faith is just wrong. Baháú'lláh was not a messenger of God. We have excellent reasons to believe that he wasn't. Moreover, the reasons he gives are often literally nonsensical. It's not just about me getting leaving the faith. It's about helping others (who are interested) see they're involved in something that's actually deeply mistaken.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat Well, if you POV is that all religions are, and have allways been garbage anyway then who would be a good candidate for a messenger of God? Or have there simply never been any messengers of God?
If there simply are no valid religions (in your POV) then it would be good to state that.
If someone is wanting to look into religions, well, Independant Investigation of Truth is listed as one of the first principles of the Baha'i Faith. In a way you are supporting that, so thanks.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 It is too facile to say that religions have been "garbage." That they are based on poor reasoning, superstition or metaphysical dogmas doesn't necessarily make them trash. It means they are expressions of human thinking, good and bad.
Strange as it may sound, "God" is actually not a fully coherent concept. So it is meaningless to speak of standards for identifying who might "speak on behalf of God." How would one identify the true ambassador of the king of Ziabon, land of Ziabons?
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat "garbage" seemed a good summary at the time; questionable may be more accurate of your POV...
Never advocates open mindedness? It does both..."One hours quiet contemplation is preferable to a lifetime of pious whorship in the eyes of God." -Baha'u'llah- This applies as much to Baha'is as anyone else.
A religion though is not a debate or social club. If you believe it then accept it. If not, or you can't, then leave that faith. Simple, no strings.
God is defined as unknowable...
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 I repeat: You'll not find a single line of scripture telling Bahá'ís to question the validity of the Bahá'í teachings. Not a single verse that intimates critical thinking.
On the contrary, Bahá'ís are always told to not consider ideas contrary to the Bahá'í teachings.
"Contemplation" implies Bahá'ís searching for ways to accept or apply the Bahá'í law, not critically examine it.
Your assumption that "this is the way religion works" merely shows you've bought into dogmatism.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 If a religion is advocating blind obedience as sufficient, then that religion is dangerous and (at the very least) false, even if it "allows" its critically thinking members to leave.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat to contemplate: to view or consider something, looking at all angles, to get a better understanding of. (This includes questioning, because you cannot look at all angles or POVs without doing so.)
To discuss this fully would require much more space than is allowed in a short video blog.
I have found my faith to be extremely thought provoking and encouraging of critical thinking. I'd love to discuss it in detail further.
It's a bit short sighted to call 1 (or all?) religion false.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 That's your interpretation, not supported by scripture.
The Universal House of Justice says, for example, that Bahais should try to understand the Bahai laws, but if they cannot understand them (or the laws outright seem bad), then the Bahais should just assume that this conclusion is due to their own limited understanding.
In this way, the dogmatism becomes entrenched.
I am concluding that the Bahai Faith is false after much investigation. Nothing shortsighted about it.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat Different subjective experiences...different interpretations drawn from our seperate experiences...fair enough.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 You could dismiss it as "subjective," but the fact is that while you have to stretch the meaning of the word "contemplate" to match your values, there are dozens of quotations in the Bahai scripture encouraging Bahais to be close-minded, dogmatic, and blindly obey.
See mavaddat {.} homestead {.} com/files/BahaiDogmatism{.}html
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat I meant that our individual experiences are subjective...and that likewise we draw our own different interpretations from our own seperate lives and POVs.
I don't think that I do stretch the meaning of the word contemplate...we are still to (continually) seek truth on our own.
As far as laws that we don't yet understand...there are reasons to follow them, things such as unforseen circumstances for not following them. I can provide examples from the last 50 years in US culture.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 There's no scriptural corroboration of your interpretation of "contemplate."
The fact that we often realize in retrospect that there were good rules for us to follow in the past, which we could not have understood then is not a reason to follow rules *now* that we don't understand.
Religious people often have a very difficult time understanding this:
We aren't warranted in following unexplained rules *now* just because we can see in retrospect it would've been good to do so.
mavaddat 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 The Bahá'í Faith supports investigation of truth for non-Bahá'ís who are interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It never advocates open-mindedness or critical thinking from Bahá'ís themselves toward their own religion. Look at the scripture. You won't find a single verse in which any of the authors suggest that Bahá'ís question anything about the official Bahá'í dogmas. On the contrary, Bahá'ís are repeatedly told not to question or even think too much about the reason for the laws.
mavaddat 10 months ago
What else is found in nature? Canabilizing one's own children is. To say that something is moral because it is mirrored in nature isn't really valid.
To say a faith is "man made" because of a particular teaching...that likewise invalidates all of the other Abrahamic religions.
One thing that makes us human, not animal, is that we choose to follow the urges that we want to...and make our society what we collectively wish it to be.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 I didn't say that any action is acceptable or moral because it is "found in nature."
I am arguing against that position.
It is the Bahá'í Faith that says (mistakenly) that homosexuality is against nature, and therefore, wrong.
This line of reasoning is not just based on a false premise, but it's totally fallacious. That's my point. You just confirmed it by admitting that nature (by itself) has nothing to do whatever with morality. Thank you!
mavaddat 10 months ago
The Bible condones polygamy and slavery, but Jews and Christians don't actually do these things themselves :) the same can be said for any faith!
grail68 10 months ago
@grail68 Historically speaking both groups did take part in those activities...early Jews were polygamists...and Christians did practice slavery...even up to the 1800s. It's fine if a faith did those things it condones at some point in it's history. It's not fine if that community does what it condemns after condemning it. That's hypocrasy.
aaronlee75 10 months ago
i did not declare being gay to the assembly. no reason for why i should. i have not chosen to be gay. i still practise my faith, my family accept me for who i am and i just want to make it clear to everyone that i was born and raised by a loving family anyone can ask for..... explain to me why/how can someone like me be gay? since i can remember i was attracted to the same sex.. i did try countless of times to "swing the other way" but physically i cudnt!
nidoandme 11 months ago
I don't want to motivate you!
I want to thank you for this video and for your opinion! Really! Because it provoked a brain storm and a reflection over this theme!!! Sorry if i offend you!!!
Keep on studying the Bahai's writings and meditate over them! The independent search of truth is obligatory for every human!!!
My best regards!!!!
Calcavura 11 months ago
and one more! Even fizics say that two magnets with the same polarity are pushed off one by another!!!! I mean that the nature gives us a lot of prototypes! A magnet can not exist just with one polarity! And these polarities are contrary! Like a man and woman!! Without this the world wood not exist! the reproduction will not be possible! So, as i sad, homosexuality is not naturally, and do not assure a prosperity of Humankind!
Calcavura 11 months ago
@Calcavura I am sorry. Your ignorance is too overwhelming to motivate me to respond.
"Fizics."
mavaddat 11 months ago
But what for you means discrimination!? If i will say that a man with mental disabilities, or corporal disabilities is some like sick it will be the discrimination? if i will say that canibalism is kind of wildness,that is not normal nowdays,or that The killers are sick you will approach me as a discriminator?
Calcavura 11 months ago
Comment removed
Calcavura 11 months ago
To all, here is another video that will show existence of GOD
search you tube: Spiritual Reality: Near Death Experiences (2010) - FULL LENGTH DOCUMENTARY
pinabarryscott 1 year ago
This is To all that do not believe there is a GOD.
Pls check this out. This is proof behind a doubtt for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Our differences will be known in the next life! Lets work on our spirituality on this earth. All our differences will be made clear when we pass to the next existence. Don't you want to be ready? May God guide you!
on youtube search for: Near Death Experience of Renee Pasarow
pinabarryscott 1 year ago
O yeah and the word 'disability?' WHERE? What is a Handicap? HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED HORSE RACING? You have ALL misunderstood the term Handicap. GOD BLESS YOU!
tashaclaire1 1 year ago
@tashaclaire1 You are seriously confused about the purpose of this video.
I am quoting the Bahá'í scriptures on homosexuality. I'm trying to show that the Bahá'í discriminates against homosexuals in a grotesque way.
I'm not describing my own feelings about homosexuality AT ALL. In my opinion, homosexuality is as beautiful and wonderful as heterosexuality.
mavaddat 1 year ago
@mavaddat Did you really think that homosexuality is beautiful!? This is not naturaly and the nature of man do not provide the possibility of such couple! Physically is impossible to propagate, more over, a lot of disease are from such couples! is not good to be against nature and it is illogical.
Calcavura 11 months ago
@Calcavura You know what is against nature?
Religion.
mavaddat 11 months ago
@mavaddat Religion is against nature...it is something that is not found in any other creature other than Man. It is one of our defining characteristics...and perhaps the strongest motivator in building civilizations. Is religion a "bad" thing? If carried to excess, then yes. The same is true of anything else though. When it HASN'T been carried to excess history shows without a doubt that it has been a very positive thing. Science&engineering are also against nature. Man shouldn't fly...
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 Man is not a creature. Man is a gender. Humanity is a species of animals that uniquely achieved religion (and mass genocide, for that matter). Every species has unique characteristics. Humans are not the only unique species.
Religion (moderate or not) is always "bad" in the sense that it is attempted morality or science and based on manifest falsehood.
Anyway, you recognize my point that what is natural (or unnatural) is not the same as what is good (or bad). That is enough...
mavaddat 10 months ago
@mavaddat Man, Human; they were synonyms until sometime in the last 30 years.
Many species are in ways unique. No other species though has attempted anything like going to the moon or discovering the underlying rules of nature.
"manifest falsehood?" To deal with people justly, to give to the poor, to promote harmony, and to work to seek knowledge that is helpful for humanity; I suppose these could be considered bad teachings.
good/bad is an opinion; perhaps a judgement on what's beneficial
aaronlee75 10 months ago
@aaronlee75 The fact that men do not represent humanity is the insight missing from the patriarchal pretense that "man" is synonymous with "human."
Every social animal infers underlying rules of nature. Science explores the difference between humans and animals. It turns out, there's no sharp distinction. I suggest looking into it.
The basis for all religions is manifest falsehoods (God, afterlife, soul, where morality comes from), not the actions to which religions motivate people sometimes.
mavaddat 10 months ago
I can't tolerate this video, being that "Errrrrrr..." is the most frequently used word! Sorry but think about scripting, rehearsing and re-recording. I am interested, as a Bisexual and a Baha'i, but please sort this out mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Also at about 3.15 you start to use the word 'wrong.' This is your interpretation. Wrong is an unhealthy word. Think about changing it. Cheers. XX
tashaclaire1 1 year ago
@tashaclaire1 I am quoting directly from the Bahá'í scriptures. I didn't add the word "wrong." Try reading your own religion's scriptures?
mavaddat 1 year ago
Comment removed
tashaclaire1 1 year ago
Baha'is do not discriminate against homosexuals. It's as simple as that; it would go against our main principle which is to "unite all the peoples of the earth".
7GeorgiaPeach 1 year ago
@7GeorgiaPeach Bahá'ís don't discriminate, hm?
So when Shoghi Effendi writes, "homosexuality is highly condemned and often a great trial and cause of suffering to a person" and calls homosexuality "spiritually condemned," a "shameful sexual aberration" that is "against nature," he's unifying peoples?
When Shoghi Effendi requires that "flagrantly homosexual" Bahá'ís be "expelled from the community" he's just saying to each his own?
Seems fair to you say you don't know the Bahá'í religion, no?
mavaddat 1 year ago
poeple should try to not project their own thoughts,experiances or attetudes on others.
ginie00 1 year ago
i am a bahai and reading and hearing all this about being a homosexual is a disease simply sickens me to the bone .... one big lesson i have learnt from baha'ullah's teachings is that we are the leaves of one tree and the fruits of one branch ... and then saying that being gay is unnatural when god has created us is like saying god has created a faulty! its absolutely disgusts me as it has made me feel so expelled and believe u me! us homosexuals are no different to those heterosexuals.
nidoandme 1 year ago
@nidoandme Religious laws don't take into account human's feelings, because they pretend that whatever God commands is moral, by definition.
mavaddat 1 year ago
@nidoandme There is an incredible dichotomy between the presentation of the Baha'i Faith by believers and the actual writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah which are really quite violent, sexist, prejudice, and ignorant of science.
MillerGenuineCraft 1 year ago
@MillerGenuineCraft Very true, Miller. In fairness to Bahá'ís, I think most of them intuitively realize this and are embarrassed by those anti-science, prejudiced, and sexist passages. They try to ignore or interpret them away...
mavaddat 1 year ago
Comment removed
999vivo 1 year ago
@nidoandme
If you really are a Baha'i, you should know that Bahá'u'lláh condemns this kind of immoral behavior!
Excuse me, but how the Assembly accepted your declaration?
999vivo 1 year ago 2
@999vivo What is immoral about this presentation?
MillerGenuineCraft 10 months ago
Eventhough who you are we are all one...... because we are all people of God....
yhetcornejo 1 year ago
i see this matter is taken very seriously...bahai faith is a solution for the world problems and does not interfere with your personal sexual life..because your sexuality wether deviated to nature. does not thwart the progress of peace on earth but it a matter that you should discuss with a doctor. just like any other psycho disease. since bahai faith s hand in hand with science one should refuge to science too..doctors and 99% of them have firmly explained homosexuality disease and its negative
Wisdombluetooth 1 year ago
You are ignorant. Every accredited American medical and psychological institution agrees there's no medical, psychological, or social reason to believe gay sex is immoral or unhealthy. This includes the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the National Association of Social Workers to name a few. Only religious dogmatists think gay sex immoral.
mavaddat 1 year ago
@mavaddat If these people think it is OK for one guy to suck another guys penis or stick his penis up another guys rectum then their credibility just went out the window with the flat earth societies credibility.
waiotahi52 1 year ago
@waiotahi52 The fact you think those are remotely comparable suggests your credibility was never even in the window. It's been left outside. In the cold of the Bronze Age. Go back and find it?
mavaddat 1 year ago
Being Religious and Homosexual is NOT a problem;
IRRELIGIOUS HOMOPHOBIA certainly IS.
mavaddat ~
May the heavens shower flowers upon your heart
wherever you are now and always.
In the Eternal Trueness & Boundlessness of Love
Sakshin ~ (ordained Interfaith Minister)
AwakeToTheMystery 1 year ago
@AwakeToTheMystery Thanks Awake!
mavaddat 1 year ago
@mavaddat
Loveliness, you are most welcome.
AwakeToTheMystery 1 year ago
Wait, Wait, isn't the Bahai doctrine as described here, uhm, rather Catholic? Why yes. And as drearily familiar.
Trolldiva1 1 y