the problem with rationalism is that it was suppose to do away with all the mystification.. instead this same characteristic has evolved along with rationalism..
I'm afraid not, Marcuse! Unfortunately, most of the sane people think that you're an utter prat! Ask them who they'd prefer to meet: Marcuse or the man who cleans out the public toilets in Aberdeen, and they'd go for Wee Jock "Poo-Pong" McPlop, every time.
@GreatGrumbledook It is undeniablly true that most people would prefer to meet Wee Jock McPlop to Macuse. But this is not because they have formed their judgement of him (Marcuse, that is, not McPlop) by reading him, but because they have formed it by reading ABOUT him and what has been written about him has been written, with honourable exceptions, by those who have deliberately set out to misrepresent and demonise him.
@archdeaconj: First, heaven be the record to my speech! Now, Marcuse, do I turn to thee, and mark my greeting well; for what I speak my body shall make good upon this earth, or my divine soul answer it in heaven. Thou art a traitor and a miscreant, too good to be so and too bad to live, since the more fair and crystal is the sky, the uglier seem the clouds that in it fly. Once more, the more to aggravate the note, with a foul traitor's name stuff I thy throat!
@archdeaconj: And wish, ere I move, what my tongue speaks my right drawn sword may prove. Let not my cold words here accuse my zeal: 'Tis not the trial of a woman's war, the bitter clamour of two eager tongues, can arbitrate this cause betwixt us twain; the blood is hot that must be cool'd for this: Setting aside my high blood's royalty, I do defy Marcuse, and I spit at him; call him a slanderous coward and a villain!
@archdeaconj: Which to maintain I would allow him odds, and meet him, were I tied to run afoot Even to the frozen ridges of the Alps, or any other ground inhabitable, where ever Englishman durst set his foot. Mean time let this defend my loyalty, by all my hopes, most falsely doth he lie. Pale trembling coward, there I throw my gage, and lay aside my high blood's royalty, which fear, not reverence, makes thee to except.
@archdeaconj: If guilty dread have left thee so much strength as to take up mine honour's pawn, then stoop: By that and all the rites of knighthood else, will I make good against thee, arm to arm, What I have spoke, or thou canst worse devise. And by that sword I swear which gently laid my knighthood on my shoulder, I'll answer thee in any fair degree, or chivalrous design of knightly trial: And when I mount, alive may I not light, If I be traitor or unjustly fight!
@archdeaconj: Look, what I speak, my life shall prove it true; besides I say and will in battle prove, or here or elsewhere to the furthest verge that ever was survey'd by English eye, that all the treasons for these eighteen years complotted and contrived in this land fetch from false Marcuse their first head and spring.
@GreatGrumbledook Doth call Mowbray, Marcuse? / Then Marcuse, Bolingbroke? / Methinks high-stomached is the wench / And full of ire / In rage, deaf as the sea, hasty of fire.
@archdeaconj: Well, you are right: Marcuse is the Mowbray of this age; and to its eternal shame the German government failed to put him to execution, for discipline ought to be used!
@GreatGrumbledook Yes, but why call Bolingbroke (i.e. the soon to be king, Henry IV) Marcuse?
Anyway, why do you say Marcuse should have been executed? Marcuse saw man as not in the most fundamental sense free. He held that social conditioning alienates man from his authentic self. He was not alone in thinking this. Heidegger, Nietzsche, Marx, Sartre, all of the Frankfurt School philosophers, including Habermas, and many others thought the same. Why so harsh a judgement?
@archdeaconj: Why! Thou protector of this damned strumpet, talk'st thou to me of "whys"? Thou art a traitor: Off with his head! Now, by Saint Paul I swear, I will not dine until I see the same (yes: There is an unfitting Shakespeare quote for every occasion in life). Besides: To put the noble name of Nietzsche (and partly Heidegger) in line with these vile, peace mongering sophisters, these arch-enemies of both the Gods and the State is a heinous insolence! But Nietzsche may defend himself here:
"For these little prigs miscalculate precisely where it matters most. They attack, but everything they attack is distinguished thereby. To be attacked by a "first Christian" is not to be soiled. On the contrary: it is an honor to be opposed by "first Christians." One does not read the New Testament without a predilection for that which is maltreated in it not to speak of "the wisdom of this world," which an impudent windmaker tries in vain to ruin with "foolish preaching." ...
@archdeaconj: Well, you are right: Marcuse is the Mowbray of this age; and to its eternal shame the German government failed to put him to execution, for discipline ought to be used!
@archdeaconj: O, God defend my soul from such deep sin! Shall I seem crest-fall'n in my enemy's sight? Or with pale beggar-fear impeach my height before this out-dared dastard? Ere my tongue shall wound my honour with such feeble wrong, or sound so base a parle, my teeth shall tear the slavish motive of recanting fear, and spit it bleeding in his high disgrace, where shame doth harbour, even in Marcuse's face.
@GreatGrumbledook Oh do come out from behind those literary quotations . Why do you think Marcuse should have been executed? Would you burn his books as well? In a democracy, there is a more effective way of killing ideas than executing s/he who holds them. That is to let the mainstream media savage them using well-tested linguistic techniques of manipulation. Marcuse was and is a threat to the established order of things, but not for reasons the masses have been led to believe.
@archdeaconj: Nope; I am into the old fashion: Sweet Jesus was nailed to the cross for the fault of merely not knowing what truth is by stern and upright Pilate; so how can he hope to escape crucifixion?
prefer war over peace? It depends on the circmstances. If i'm foced to live under an orwellian slave society, and be in perpetual peace or to chose between that or a rational free state in war... I would chose war.
The fact is that war/conflict is a natural concomitant of human affairs. And because it is natural it is necessary. To indulge in pipe dreams about "peace" is as nugatory as deciding that humans should sprout wings and fly... attractive but not in our nature.
nature? that's shit is socially and culturally constructed. nature has been lost, no one knows where to find it. what's natural? is racism natural? is imperialism natural? you are making the biggest assumption. you think that this way of living has been the only one that ever existed. very narrow way of seeing the world. primitive asshole.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I see, i suppose if you teach a chimpanzee according to Das Kapital... that'll make him a good communist ...
NONSENSE! There is no culture without biology... no societies without people, BIOLOGY IS THE FULCRUM of human relations. We can't think or teach ourselves to grow wings, or to be equals as communists would like, communism is a misreading of human nature: and look at how poorly it worked! how much more proof does one need?
diversity exists for a reason. we all can't look the same, adaptation/evolution demands differences, but culture gives these differences greater meaning.
...standards of beauty have changed through time. what is attractive today wasn't a few decades or centuries ago.
your emotionality shouldn't be taken as objectivity. human rights are a social construction. deal with it.
So what? a child learns to take a shit because it is socialised into learning this? That is the pipe dream mate. Although I agree, the socialisation factor is generally overlooked.
now that you're talking about excrement, you should research how people dispose of their shit, apparently the French, Germans and British and Americans have different types of toilets. So yeah, even when it comes taking a shit humans have cultural preferences. The German toilet is particularly interesting.
Americans unfortunatly are systematically brainwashed from birth and have no understanding of socialism. I know the English speaking West especially are not much better due to American influence but as long as American consumerism is all powerful the world is doomed.I believe it has taken the internet for Americans to realise the extent to which the rest of the world hates their guts.
@leezabeeza Well, I don't know about 'Americans' but the US regime certainly. There's deep hated all over the world for its brutal foreign policy. And isn't this 'brainwashing', this social conditioning, which alienates individuals from their authentic selves, exactly what Marcuse was on about? No wonder he's deliberately misrepresented and demonised.
Thanks! Real great video. The part about 'it's people's property, it can be broken when needed, but also should be fixed' speaks directly to the Thailand situation....
"All of us have been propagandised and brought into a system which they did not chose to create. We have been inadvertently forced to share the same opinions, dispositions, impulses and even the physical habits which adapt us to life in an advanced industrial society. Our pleasures have become consumer goods and our lives have been devoted to alienated work. Sadly, all this takes place in a society that is so rich and prosperous that it could offer us all a much better life."
I don't see your reason? It would be easier to understand your point if you made it! Oddly enough many of those people would agree with you in one way or another. Plato wanted to ban poets altogether and many of those Marxist were not particularly keen on being the rulers of the world. Its mostly fascist and capitalist who are big on ruling everyone else for the reasons that silly old Plato developed thousands of years ago.
And so on and on. The big deal is, if people could only undestand it, that there's not a single truth that will come straight out from anyone. That's why epistemology, or any other discipline within philosophy for that matter, won't ever go to or fro.
If you look at it plainly, Plato wanted an static society , a way of life in which people couldn't leave their country unless they had a certain age or social status an promissed not to introduce any sort of new ideas at their return. Marx's vision of a future society (if you manage to find such a thing in his writtings) is equally restrictive, and only sourvives working as an amphibious between models.
The Frankfurt philosopher's were the most balanced in their analysis, for they did not give a rule model or an expectation for years to come, they gave just a number of posibilities: Marcuse's vision of technology and capitalist society as means to develop a new way of freedom for human kind or horkheimer's future society where production and men reach two possible endings, to fulfil their dreams or to be subject of slavery to fulfil somebody else's
Comment removed
russianpostman 5 months ago
A great lecture, spoilt by a comments section of idiots.
niriop 6 months ago 3
An excellent talk.
johann23 1 year ago
Why american nation can not learn from history, from Vietnam for example!
Marat9043 1 year ago
17.15 sexual liberation essential. Note to self.
BritNet001 1 year ago
3 interesting points in Q-A:
1. Today critique of technology has been eclipsed.
2. Book has Marcuse's comments on Heidegger's philosophy as fascist, authoritarian. Not criticisms of Heidegger throughout Marcuse's career.
3. Note that Feenberg disagrees with Marcuse on Heidegger.
bertzork 2 years ago
the problem with rationalism is that it was suppose to do away with all the mystification.. instead this same characteristic has evolved along with rationalism..
kutthroat84 2 years ago
I'm afraid not, Marcuse! Unfortunately, most of the sane people think that you're an utter prat! Ask them who they'd prefer to meet: Marcuse or the man who cleans out the public toilets in Aberdeen, and they'd go for Wee Jock "Poo-Pong" McPlop, every time.
GreatGrumbledook 2 years ago
@GreatGrumbledook It is undeniablly true that most people would prefer to meet Wee Jock McPlop to Macuse. But this is not because they have formed their judgement of him (Marcuse, that is, not McPlop) by reading him, but because they have formed it by reading ABOUT him and what has been written about him has been written, with honourable exceptions, by those who have deliberately set out to misrepresent and demonise him.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: First, heaven be the record to my speech! Now, Marcuse, do I turn to thee, and mark my greeting well; for what I speak my body shall make good upon this earth, or my divine soul answer it in heaven. Thou art a traitor and a miscreant, too good to be so and too bad to live, since the more fair and crystal is the sky, the uglier seem the clouds that in it fly. Once more, the more to aggravate the note, with a foul traitor's name stuff I thy throat!
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: And wish, ere I move, what my tongue speaks my right drawn sword may prove. Let not my cold words here accuse my zeal: 'Tis not the trial of a woman's war, the bitter clamour of two eager tongues, can arbitrate this cause betwixt us twain; the blood is hot that must be cool'd for this: Setting aside my high blood's royalty, I do defy Marcuse, and I spit at him; call him a slanderous coward and a villain!
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Which to maintain I would allow him odds, and meet him, were I tied to run afoot Even to the frozen ridges of the Alps, or any other ground inhabitable, where ever Englishman durst set his foot. Mean time let this defend my loyalty, by all my hopes, most falsely doth he lie. Pale trembling coward, there I throw my gage, and lay aside my high blood's royalty, which fear, not reverence, makes thee to except.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: If guilty dread have left thee so much strength as to take up mine honour's pawn, then stoop: By that and all the rites of knighthood else, will I make good against thee, arm to arm, What I have spoke, or thou canst worse devise. And by that sword I swear which gently laid my knighthood on my shoulder, I'll answer thee in any fair degree, or chivalrous design of knightly trial: And when I mount, alive may I not light, If I be traitor or unjustly fight!
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Look, what I speak, my life shall prove it true; besides I say and will in battle prove, or here or elsewhere to the furthest verge that ever was survey'd by English eye, that all the treasons for these eighteen years complotted and contrived in this land fetch from false Marcuse their first head and spring.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook Doth call Mowbray, Marcuse? / Then Marcuse, Bolingbroke? / Methinks high-stomached is the wench / And full of ire / In rage, deaf as the sea, hasty of fire.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Well, you are right: Marcuse is the Mowbray of this age; and to its eternal shame the German government failed to put him to execution, for discipline ought to be used!
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook Yes, but why call Bolingbroke (i.e. the soon to be king, Henry IV) Marcuse?
Anyway, why do you say Marcuse should have been executed? Marcuse saw man as not in the most fundamental sense free. He held that social conditioning alienates man from his authentic self. He was not alone in thinking this. Heidegger, Nietzsche, Marx, Sartre, all of the Frankfurt School philosophers, including Habermas, and many others thought the same. Why so harsh a judgement?
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Why! Thou protector of this damned strumpet, talk'st thou to me of "whys"? Thou art a traitor: Off with his head! Now, by Saint Paul I swear, I will not dine until I see the same (yes: There is an unfitting Shakespeare quote for every occasion in life). Besides: To put the noble name of Nietzsche (and partly Heidegger) in line with these vile, peace mongering sophisters, these arch-enemies of both the Gods and the State is a heinous insolence! But Nietzsche may defend himself here:
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
"For these little prigs miscalculate precisely where it matters most. They attack, but everything they attack is distinguished thereby. To be attacked by a "first Christian" is not to be soiled. On the contrary: it is an honor to be opposed by "first Christians." One does not read the New Testament without a predilection for that which is maltreated in it not to speak of "the wisdom of this world," which an impudent windmaker tries in vain to ruin with "foolish preaching." ...
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Well, you are right: Marcuse is the Mowbray of this age; and to its eternal shame the German government failed to put him to execution, for discipline ought to be used!
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook I gather, then, that you don’t think very highly of Marcuse, only you don’t say why. Enlighten me (please).
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: O, God defend my soul from such deep sin! Shall I seem crest-fall'n in my enemy's sight? Or with pale beggar-fear impeach my height before this out-dared dastard? Ere my tongue shall wound my honour with such feeble wrong, or sound so base a parle, my teeth shall tear the slavish motive of recanting fear, and spit it bleeding in his high disgrace, where shame doth harbour, even in Marcuse's face.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
@GreatGrumbledook Oh do come out from behind those literary quotations . Why do you think Marcuse should have been executed? Would you burn his books as well? In a democracy, there is a more effective way of killing ideas than executing s/he who holds them. That is to let the mainstream media savage them using well-tested linguistic techniques of manipulation. Marcuse was and is a threat to the established order of things, but not for reasons the masses have been led to believe.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
@archdeaconj: Nope; I am into the old fashion: Sweet Jesus was nailed to the cross for the fault of merely not knowing what truth is by stern and upright Pilate; so how can he hope to escape crucifixion?
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
prefer war over peace? It depends on the circmstances. If i'm foced to live under an orwellian slave society, and be in perpetual peace or to chose between that or a rational free state in war... I would chose war.
The fact is that war/conflict is a natural concomitant of human affairs. And because it is natural it is necessary. To indulge in pipe dreams about "peace" is as nugatory as deciding that humans should sprout wings and fly... attractive but not in our nature.
lictor313 3 years ago
At last an intellectually minded person who actually has some brains! :)
JohananRaatz 3 years ago
nature? that's shit is socially and culturally constructed. nature has been lost, no one knows where to find it. what's natural? is racism natural? is imperialism natural? you are making the biggest assumption. you think that this way of living has been the only one that ever existed. very narrow way of seeing the world. primitive asshole.
TurdSnatcher777 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
"social constructivism" is a favorite in the patter of communists and leftists alike...
Racism is natural, and yes statecraft and the organization of human societies is NATURAL (man is a social animal).
nature doesn't change (only an iota every 15 000 years) The record of history hasn't changed, human affairs, like animal affairs - do not change.
And you're the one who is indulging in pipe dreams and seeing the world for what you would LIKE IT to be, rather then how it IS. your deluded
lictor313 2 years ago
there's no biological reality without social context.
I would say that culture has a bigger influence than nature over human behavior.
Saying that something is natural is not enough to justify its existence, but I guess you think it is.
your return to nature is also a pipe dream.
tristanXIV 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I see, i suppose if you teach a chimpanzee according to Das Kapital... that'll make him a good communist ...
NONSENSE! There is no culture without biology... no societies without people, BIOLOGY IS THE FULCRUM of human relations. We can't think or teach ourselves to grow wings, or to be equals as communists would like, communism is a misreading of human nature: and look at how poorly it worked! how much more proof does one need?
lictor313 2 years ago
you sound like a Nazi. and you also know how their theories of nature turned out?
isn't the other way around? we are born equal and it is culture, society, the economy that creates the significant differences between peoples.
you want people to be ruled by their instincts? what a new and bright idea!!
tristanXIV 2 years ago
born equal? I'm not sure I follow?
are we all as bright, as talented for everything, as good looking, as tall ... etc ? or legally equal (which depends on the culture)
either way again: nonsense
lictor313 2 years ago
diversity exists for a reason. we all can't look the same, adaptation/evolution demands differences, but culture gives these differences greater meaning.
...standards of beauty have changed through time. what is attractive today wasn't a few decades or centuries ago.
your emotionality shouldn't be taken as objectivity. human rights are a social construction. deal with it.
tristanXIV 2 years ago
the great thing about standards is that there are many.
tristanXIV 2 years ago
!?!?
lictor313 2 years ago
So what? a child learns to take a shit because it is socialised into learning this? That is the pipe dream mate. Although I agree, the socialisation factor is generally overlooked.
MrCyberGJnr 2 years ago
now that you're talking about excrement, you should research how people dispose of their shit, apparently the French, Germans and British and Americans have different types of toilets. So yeah, even when it comes taking a shit humans have cultural preferences. The German toilet is particularly interesting.
tristanXIV 2 years ago
Hahaha the toilets may be different, look at Asia but the poop action is the same ;-)
MrCyberGJnr 2 years ago
@MrCyberGJnr , yeah, you have to learn to take a shit. Its called potty training. Do you have kids?
JimBowie1133 1 month ago
maccarthy was right after all
lictor313 3 years ago
Guys you have to drop Karl Marx and Herbert Marcuse and pick up some Leo Strauss and Carl Schmitt instead.
JohananRaatz 3 years ago
as well as some Revilo P Oliver and Madison Grant, Lothrop Stoddard, and other rational and learned men....
lictor313 3 years ago
@JohananRaatz What aspects of Leo Strauss's philosophy exactly do you have in mind?
archdeaconj 1 year ago
Someone needs to go back in time and terminate Marcuse. (before the 60's hopefully)
JohananRaatz 3 years ago
Americans unfortunatly are systematically brainwashed from birth and have no understanding of socialism. I know the English speaking West especially are not much better due to American influence but as long as American consumerism is all powerful the world is doomed.I believe it has taken the internet for Americans to realise the extent to which the rest of the world hates their guts.
leezabeeza 3 years ago
"I believe it has taken the internet for Americans to realise the extent to which the rest of the world hates their guts."
Duh they hate our guts. They're fucking scum.
JohananRaatz 3 years ago
@leezabeeza Well, I don't know about 'Americans' but the US regime certainly. There's deep hated all over the world for its brutal foreign policy. And isn't this 'brainwashing', this social conditioning, which alienates individuals from their authentic selves, exactly what Marcuse was on about? No wonder he's deliberately misrepresented and demonised.
archdeaconj 1 year ago
The bankers and economists are doing a great job aren't they?
mravka9 3 years ago
Thanks! Real great video. The part about 'it's people's property, it can be broken when needed, but also should be fixed' speaks directly to the Thailand situation....
inkonwater 3 years ago
His position is well worth considering. No straw mans here.
cristenroyce 4 years ago
"All of us have been propagandised and brought into a system which they did not chose to create. We have been inadvertently forced to share the same opinions, dispositions, impulses and even the physical habits which adapt us to life in an advanced industrial society. Our pleasures have become consumer goods and our lives have been devoted to alienated work. Sadly, all this takes place in a society that is so rich and prosperous that it could offer us all a much better life."
WSRobinson 4 years ago
I don't see your reason? It would be easier to understand your point if you made it! Oddly enough many of those people would agree with you in one way or another. Plato wanted to ban poets altogether and many of those Marxist were not particularly keen on being the rulers of the world. Its mostly fascist and capitalist who are big on ruling everyone else for the reasons that silly old Plato developed thousands of years ago.
FuriousBataille 4 years ago
And so on and on. The big deal is, if people could only undestand it, that there's not a single truth that will come straight out from anyone. That's why epistemology, or any other discipline within philosophy for that matter, won't ever go to or fro.
federicowaissmann 4 years ago
If you look at it plainly, Plato wanted an static society , a way of life in which people couldn't leave their country unless they had a certain age or social status an promissed not to introduce any sort of new ideas at their return. Marx's vision of a future society (if you manage to find such a thing in his writtings) is equally restrictive, and only sourvives working as an amphibious between models.
federicowaissmann 4 years ago
The Frankfurt philosopher's were the most balanced in their analysis, for they did not give a rule model or an expectation for years to come, they gave just a number of posibilities: Marcuse's vision of technology and capitalist society as means to develop a new way of freedom for human kind or horkheimer's future society where production and men reach two possible endings, to fulfil their dreams or to be subject of slavery to fulfil somebody else's
federicowaissmann 4 years ago