@ArchaelogistPhil Well I meant similarly... Confucius seems to occasionally be associated with Shang-Di or Tien (ancient China's absolute supreme God/being over all!) in terms of the relation of beliefs. I'm not the one who's crazy beyond medical help.
Shang Di, as I know of, is not a deity at all. It is just a personification of the physical sky, the stars, the celestials. Ancient Chinese were intrigued by the stars, they were the first to discover supernovae, lunar/solar eclipses, constellations, etc. This concept describes the awe they had towards the stars, and the Mandate of Heaven (Emperor of China) was given so much respect, because he was thought to be the one who could truly decipher the message of the stars.
I believe some of you are just using this as a way to tie Shang Di to the Abrahamic religions. Note this, there are other entities that were worshipped before Shang Di, such as Nuwa, the creator goddess, Pangu, and the Jade Emperor. This is just one deity that fits into the description of your "God" out of thousands, which is no surprise really due to the huge probability. I am Chinese, born into a traditional Shenist background. And this is a fallacy.
@nomarjr3 Well the first and foremoest prime God in the ancient chinese folk religion is and always has been Shang-Di (or Tien), since He is in my view for all intents and purposes, absolute, eternal, infinite, omnipotent (to the prime degree), omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, and supreme above all and everything else and is the origin/creator of the universe (or as some mystics, philosophers, or metaphysicists would say omniverse).
@nomarjr3 But yeah if you believe in strictly the Taoist stuff, then it's either Tian or Pangu.... or the Dao (depending on your interpretation)... the Three Pure Ones are the highest aspects of the supreme being or princple like the indian trimurti is to Brahman/Ishvara (God) in hinduism. Pangu is more like a demiurgic creator.
The absolute supreme or highest of the religious or philosophical Chinese gods/beings/entities watch over the universe and all 72 layers of heaven and hell.
@eelco2012 if by "obsessed", you mean "rightly fascinated with his the richness of his own heritage and if you don't like it's none of your business", then yes I am.
@eelco2012 cause they're gods and absolute divine beings/entities, they're for all intents and purposes MEANT to be praised and loved like art and stuff? that's the purpose of most if not all gods and such figures/icons/symbols/beings/entities out there! it just absolutely bamboozles the hell out of me as to why anyone can ask such a question as to why anyone would praise a "god", especially when it's a part of their own culture and heritage. <_<
@eelco2012 eff you man, that is the silliest fucking question I have ever been asked. Yeah sure, they're about as much attention whores are your parents, your favorite basketball player, your favorite philosopher, your favorite writer, your favorite singer or idol, your favorite dancer, your favorite historical figure, etc. Gods are sacred beings that we all love, respect, admire, appreciate, and enjoy in every way just like art, culture, poetry, music, and other such expressions or things.
I am a Han Chinese. If Chinese go back to abt 400BC there is none all of the above goddess that you mentioned. It's only confucianism. It is much later( 250AD) that other man-created gods were created. gods that are created for lesson purpose like goddess of mercy and many more. Sometime it's strange that even we know the author of the book and we still worship and believe the character in the story book, i.e monkey god, & pray to the moon.
Shang Di is China's first and absolute supreme and greatest God ever! He is also oen of the world's oldest monotheistic Gods/traditions ever! Praise be to Him forever and ever! The Chinese shall show the world that their country's technology, economy, inventions, and arts aren't the only things that have dominated, but also their God, Shang Di! And his prophet Confucius!
I do not have a religion. But has anyone considered that Buddha, Jesus, prophet Mohd and other religious human-form representations could actually be that Almighty God manifestation in human form in different eras? You see, it appears to me Buddha, Jesus, Prophet etc didn't co-exist but the basic teachings of all these so-called religions have a common thread through them.
Jesus is unique. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but by me." He's the only one that dared to say, I am the one.
You can believe what he said, or not. Just realize he is unique among the world religious figures.
I am sooo happy to hear this,,,I am now studying Chinese history and am happy that they are an ancient society that truelly recognize the one God. The Most High...just like the Abrahamic faiths.
this is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo old tradition
cause all that time there was buddhim, Confucianism and Taoism and all that jazz, the emperor would sit down and read to shang di once a year, for 2100 years we had all those other religions, WTF?
Buddhism is non-theistic, it's all got to do with the Pali cannon, Jainism and Buddhism came from that branch, buddhism ended up non-theistic while Jainism became A-theistic.
Buddha was not an atheist, Buddhism is really a philosophy and you gotta understand that, some buddhists believe in god, the point is that preaching god wasn't necceasary since people there already believed in god Buddha's teachings were use just a guide, infact anyone can have another religion and add buddhism to it,
Anyway, its not pronounced sh-hang-dee, but more like the past tense of hang, hung. Like william hung. Sh-hung-dee. Ang in chinese is always ung and not the american ang sound.
Shangdi, to the ancient chinese bears a strong resemblance to the God of the jews, Yahweh. Shangdi has a personality and character, but no real form, and Shangdi created the world and man and has a relationship with man. How this god-figure arised in isolated ancient China warrants looking into. I'm chinese, and christian, and i believe the ancient chinese knew the one true God, God of abraham, isaac and jacob, and they called him Shangdi.
Throughout history, God sent prophets and messengers to every nation to guide mankind. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise us that even China (which most today think is irreligious) had a monotheistic past. Since our father Adam's creation, religion has always been for God.
"For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), 'Serve God, and eschew Evil'." (Quran, 16:36)
('We' is used instead of 'I' as a plural of respect in Semitic languages.)
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
a greek pagan told me that he wasnt really a pagan and that just because the 12 greek gods were called god , they werent really gods, they were like imaginative like beings but believe that they actually exists. they were benevolent demons but demon is a degratory meaning therefore it wasnt used
the greek pagan said that zeus and co. believed in a one high god and they called him the unknown.
Shang di is used by Chinese-speaking Christians to call the Almighty. However, the interesting thing is that nearly every person in the Chinese world believes that Tian (Heaven) is real, some using an even more intimate name, Lao Tian Ye (Old Heaven Grandfather). All without form and image.
Sorry if that was too generalizing a bit but it's not that far from the truth.
most of humanity believed in dragons. so does this mean dragoins exist?or must have existed? even the bible mentions dragons..so Where are all of the dragons???just because most of humanity has a similar mythology does not make it real it just means we are all humans and more alike than we want to admit despite of cultural differences.
Maybe man's desire for a true God is proof itself that a God exists? I believe T.S Elliot said something like this. But of course, many Atheists would say that the need for God would be replaced once the unknown becomes known. (i.e, Science). IDK man. just an agnostic asking question.
"And certainly We sent messengers before you: there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you..."[Qur'an 40:78]
"For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger..."[Qur'an 16:36]
Muslims believe god has sent 124,000 prophets. No nation has not had a prophet pass through them. So all peoples have some of that message still present in their religion. This is the only religion in the world that states this. Believe people. Believe
God has eyes, nose, mouth, fingers, feet, knees an anus and a penis?
If god has a mouth and he creates though his word then his mouth must get dry and in need a water. So he drinks some. It goes through gods stomach and urinary system until he has to let it out from somewhere right?
Is that your god?
Sure isn't mine.
The creator of this infinite universe is not limited by this monkey form.
P.s. Islam doesn't reject genesis. It only says it has errors.
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "
The basis of the entire christian religions is based on the veracity of these claims, yet there are no historical documents of the dead returning to life?
Basically what it comes down to is that a tribe of jews recorded a "holy text handed down to them from God's prophets" but it is filled with errors and isn't much more appealing nor impressive than other religious texts.
It's probably a group of stories written by an ancient people, and you are grasping at straws and pulling out deep meaning from it when in actuality probably not that much thought was put into in the first place.
Everyone .....don't just list to this Gentle man....read for yourself....Search Wikipedia for "Shang Di" and "Xin Dynasty" and all the other dynasties...and you'll get the whole picture...and for those of you who know Scripture...you Will see the God we know as the JEHOVAH God being revealed...and one other thing, that is y Jesus said "go ye into ALL the earth and preach the good news that mankind is redeemed"
You really think that the bible was written by the Mind that conceived of the universe considering that its linguistic style is exactly like similar religous texts(greek, hindu, etc)?
just a question...have you ever truly read the Bible...especially Genesis? then you'll realise that no other 'religion' even comes close to the awe of the Creation account...& why is it that another old recorded culture testify of the same GOD...ask yourself...Dude, humanity was confused at the Tower of Babel...but they all knew who GOD was, they just had different names for Him...but after a few centuries some lost Him...but the JEWS never did, thats y we hav the Bible...but China also testify
I know you're going to come up with excuses for why your god's holy book is imperfect but it's just more logical that God would create an immaculate document rather than an understandably human text.
Your entire premise is flawed. This is like saying Science is all rubbish because, you can look back throughout scientific history and see a multitude of mistakes that have been made.
Theology is mankinds ordered attempt at understanding special revelation.
Sciences are mankinds ordered attempt at understanding common revelation.
Both have to alter their theories when proved inacurate, both move forward and improve their understanding over time.
It makes no sense to you because your a bad student of christianity.
Theology has verifiable experiments too. Its seen and lived in the lives of the saints, the experiences of the apostles, this is the divine inspiration accumulated throughout history and stored in the sacred texts of christianity. All verifiable, all true, and only a few of these collections of texts is what you would know as the "bible". Christianity is far broader, that your limited experience of it.
Genesis is a joke and isn't even consistent with itself.
Actually I studied christianity a lot, and in fact I've studied every major religion and I see them for what they truly are, expressions of human consciousness and not manifestations of a magical divine being.
Some religions may deal with a mystical void though which may or may not exist but I wouldn't qualify it as "conscious".
Also, saints produce "miracles" because humans have untapped potential not because God helped them.
Your understanding of Christianity is a joke you mean. Genesis is a highly intricate and useful theological text, and I pity your lack of proper understanding. But your not christian, so it doesnt matter.
Putting the terms magical and divine together is a bit of an oxymoron, and shows you dont understand the nature of either.
Stamping secular "opinions" on what God does or doesn't do onto christian teachings is just plain fantasy.
Your talking bullshit. Genesis is a creation myth invented by a tribe of jews about as intricate as the mayans or native americans. Unfortunately the jews aren't consistent with their own made up facts (THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE in SIX DAYS? RIGHT! NO SEVEN! LOL!) and contradict themselves.
Your arguing semantics which just proves your lack of a grasp on the English language. Magic breaks the laws of nature, Divinity breaks the laws of nature, look it up.
You didnt seem to notice that I said Genesis was a theological text, not a historical one. There are two creation stories, they both speak of fundamental and complex truths about reality, but are not historical or scientific.
Its not a sematic to use correct methodologies for correct categories of study. It is however, highly stupid to rely on category fallacies and ad hominem and ad absurdium fallacies as you have .
Lastly divine "Super"nature superceeds nature, and does not "break" it.
magic : "the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature."
read the dictionary please.
Also, I don't think you understand Genesis. It's a symbolic retelling of creation. If it is a truthful recount of what happened, even though it may be told through metaphor it is scientific. I studied every major branch of Christianity(well Gnosticism and Catholicism)
"You didnt seem to notice that I said Genesis was a theological text, not a historical one. There are two creation stories, they both speak of fundamental and complex truths about reality, but are not historical or scientific.
Its not a sematic to use correct methodologies for correct categories of study. It is however, highly stupid to rely on category fallacies and ad hominem and ad absurdium fallacies as you have .
Lastly divine "Super"nature superceeds nature, and does not "break" it."
I have not removed anything I have said. I do not normally respond rashly. Another argumentium ad hominem from someone who has nothing meaningful to say.
This is your assertion, not the assertion of Christianity. It is a story that is designed to give people their first and fundamental understanding about the relationship between mankind and God.
I pity you if you think genesis describes your relationship to your God.
"Oh adam! Where art thou!"
lol... he's God... he's supposedly inside of your soul.
whatever, believe what you want.
Technically I have been arguing ad hominem since I'm attacking your beliefs, but we are arguing about your beliefs in the first place.
Anyway, genesis was a creation story made by a bunch of ancient jews, interpret it however you want, but you honestly think it was inspired by an eternal mind? I mean clearly
Yes I do think it was inspired by an eternal mind, and so does other greater minds than yourself, like Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project.
Again, your infantile comments show you have not given anything more than a cursoity and glance to what is actually a very subtle form of literature with huge historical and litarary context which MUST be applied to gain understanding.
Irregardless of what we are talking about you should not be using any logical fallacies.
How do you measure whether or not someone has a greater mind than someone else? If he believes in the catholic dogma then I highly doubt the superiority of his intelligence. Unfortunately I can't speak with him and make a fool of him personally. And that's what bugs me.
Also that's not a very strong case because none of the greatest minds throughout history have been christian.
It's not a logical fallacy if we are arguing about what you believe. If we were arguing about abortion then itwouldbe
Great minds do great things, and make the world better. Some are: Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Galileo Galilei, John F Kennedy, Salvador Dali, Rosa Parks, Father George Lemaitre, CS Lewis, Andy Warhol, Oscar Schindler, Oscar Widle, GK Chesterton, Isaac Newton, Pope John Paul II, Martin Luther Kin, Jr., King Alfred the Great, Michelangelo Buonarroti, the cosmologist Arthur Eddington, noted chemist Michael Polanyi, nobel prise winner William Phillips & my favourite Rustram Roy!
That is an assertion that is based totally on your own authority. Making a list of scientists over the last 500 years would reveal a huge percentage of priests and monks. This does not even take into account the number of artists who have inspired makind and changed the world for the better.
You have no arguments to stand on, and even your logic has failed. Too bad sparky! lol
The greatest and most influential minds of our time have been atheists or agnostic with a very small minority being Christian, and most of those that were Christian were raised that way and didn't convert after magically realizing the inherent logic or intelligence in the bible and those that did convert never had scholars tell them about the flaws in their religion or if they did I've never seen popular arguments by them defending their case.
Example : "C.S. Lewis had full faith in the inherent consistency in scripture and believed that if we actively sought the truth that all these problems would evaporate."
Didn't happen. Pulling at strings based on imagination and faith instead of inherent logic.
The problems didn't evaporate, the bible never explained itself. People concocted they own explanations based on their own imaginings and not the uncovering of a grand design scheme.
It didn't happen, as in C.S. Lewis never found those answers and was never able to explain himself.
Once again, simply stating it is so, does not make it so.
Lewis found a complete and logical answer for all philosophical and moral issues through christian teaching. Its in his own words. I think you are simply a bad student.
Lewis said that eventually people would figure out the inherent logic in the bible, instead of admitting that the bible doesn't prove itself, and that people have to make up notions that aren't mentioned in the bible at all to explain it away or simply admit that it is filled with errors and isn't a perfect document.
It's obvious really when you realize how it was put together.
You are simply showing your blind faith in your own flawed sense of logic. The bible is not the source of christianity, it is merely the core-teaching aid of the church. The bible is the product of Christianity, not its ultimate source.
He didnt admit it didnt prove itself because your argument is a strawman. You fail.
It isnt filled with errors, you are making this conclusion without showing your logic on what and how exactly - Appeal to authority, you fail.
I am merely observing reality, I don't think you even understand what is going on because you're still misled by your beliefs.
You need to look at this from both angles.
I used to be a staunch gnostic and used Richard Dawkins arguments quite frequently to vehemently defend my side, but since I've done more research and looked deeper into all of the world's religion I've come to understand that none of them are undeniably divine, and there is little to no evidence or logic behind any of them.
Anyway, if you want to know about my search for God I can tell you.
Basically there are only 3 ways we can learn of or know of God: 1) Through direct revelation for a spiritual source. 2) Direct mystical experience in which the mystic has insight into the divine or nature. 3) Observation of the natural world in which we look for evidence of Intelligent Design or Signs from God.
1) The problem is there is no evidence that any of these books were written by an omniscient mind. There are no facts of existence that only God would know but that humans of their time wouldn't be able to guess. If the bible casually mentioned protons and neutrons and electrons then I would be sold. Often however, they get the facts of existence incorrect, and make up their own mythology. In worse case scenarios they get their own history wrong and the God within the book contradicts itself.
2) The problem is that while many of these experiences are similar, the ones that are seemingly legitimate end up being hallucinations, and then there is no way to discriminate between a hallicunation and the real thing. For instance, 30 people have a near death experience where they see their dead relatives, then meet a being of light and have a review of their life. All sounds very convincing doesn't it? Unfortunately one of those persons will someone who will see someone who isn't even dead.
(continued)... during their reunion with deceased relatives. It becomes very clear that that person had a typical experience, but also hallucinated some aspects of it. This person had exactly the same experience as the others, but half of it was false. We can assume that it was the exact type of altered mystical experience that the others were perceiving, but now we understand it's nature better, as a creation of the human mind and not it's own independent reality.
3) Finally we can perceive God through his work in creation. This was probably the best argument for God because there are so many cases of mind blowing beauty or intricate design but unfortunately even all of this can be explained without an omniscient father figure. The popular scientific explanation is blind chance and if you're a biologist then natural selection certainly helps. If you're more open minded you may consider quantum wholeness, molecular intelligence or a mystical order (Tao).
... and also you would figure a God would be able to create a flawless creation. All of these other possibilities explain these apparent flaws quite easily without bringing "God just wanted it that way" into the argument.
Yeah, it's nice to have an image of God as the Perfect, Flawless, Infallible, Brilliant, Fashioner but all you need to do is look at all these failed biological mutations and see why this just isn't the case.
you never really answered anything, you just keep telling me I am a bad student when in actuality I just see the things that normal logical people see. And honestly, what do you not understand about there being no evidence of omniscience?
There's no evidence of an omniscient author. There's no evidence that the beings met in mystical experiences are real. There's no evidence that the beautiful patterns in nature are caused by a deity.
Its simple really. Your intellect isnt working correctly. Christianity when studied fully, is the only religion that stands up to critical analysis. Assuming you dont have a cynical disposition which will distort findings as & when they come your way. This unfortunately is what you do. One example is the inaccurate understanding of why the bible is the word of God, which you have mentioned above. If you are gettings stuff like this wrong, it explains a lot.
By the way, since you are so wise and understanding, please share your expertise on these incredibly brilliant concepts that only a omniscient mind could create.
Anyway there is logic in the bible, and it gives a general moral outline, but it is hardly proof of omniscience. No holy book is.
You can tell that the Koran is made by man by one glaring fact: it contains a historical error because the writers of the Koran received their information about history from other cultures and not from an Omniscient God. It's such a shame that their "flawless" holy book that was sent down directly from God is proved to be a fraud with one human error.
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13 " ... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." - 2 Kings 2:11
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water." - Leviticus 26:11 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them." - Exodus 25:18
" God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent." - Numbers 23:19 " And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:14
"I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:30 "No man hath seen God at any time." - John 1:18
Everything you have mentioned is simply proof of your own inaccurate understanding of Christianity, and your inability to either understand of accept what you have bene taught.
Richard Dawkins is easy to dismiss. He is a good example of what happens when you let a lab tech outta the lab. He is a bigot and a moral idiot.
Christianity has complete logic behind it. Its the same logic that developed modern science, law, human rights and the free market economy. It has given us every great institution, and kept us safe and secure to the point where we can produce indolent and ungrateful children who dont know logic from unfounded opinion. You have no argument.
God cannot do anything he wants. He cannot be unjust, and he cannot sin. When you understand Gods nature better, you relaise why he is limited in this fashion.
Unless you talk about specifics, this simple formula thing means nothing. There are only things that seem, to the uneducated, to be contradictions. There are no contradictions. There are mysteries to do with the nature of God, but then He wouldnt be much of a God if we could understand him fully!
And now you strawman, because have failed. IF you are arguing that there are contradictions, you have to go on the assumtion that there is a God, simply for the purpose of the discussion.
IF you are arguing for the non-existence of God, then you cannot be making a chriticism on its teachings, which is based on the premise that this God exists.
You're illogical.
More people have converted to christianity than any other relgion, because its not based on crasy excuses. Unlike atheism.
First it was more just to take revenge upon someone and later it is more just to forgive someone.
Unfortunately you are a christian and thus can't have a legitimate philosophical discussion about the nature of justice, but anyway: Justice does truly exist as an ideal, but there is no such thing as absolute justice
Listen, you are outside the box. You have no say on what christianity teaches or how the church practices its faith. I have explained christian teaching, out of the goodness of my heart, because as an incredibly bad student or an intellectual moron (ill let you choose), you have been getting it wrong! Your response to this, is that I, who am christian are illogical?
Simply stating something is illogical does not make it so, show it.
God is immutable. He has unchanging qualities, such as his justness.
God is absolutely just, what he deems is right is always right.
Then in the bible his sense of justice changes.
It's a clear contradiction. This isn't mixing old teachings with new teachings, it's changing the basis of what is considered right and what is considered wrong.
Christians always backpedal and come up with crazy shit that doesn't really answer the problem.
Yeah he made a covenant with Jews, that he also breaks.
"an eye for an eye, a life for a life" vs "turn the other cheek, love your enemy"
In reality this translates to two opposing moral view points. "Kill him so that justice may be served" vs "no forgive him so that justice may be served".
Try and get this in your thick head. God was trying to de-program the jews which came out of the egyptian nihilistic culture of "an eye for an eye". Turn the other cheek is based on jewish culture at jesus' time. Love (imprecise term) your enemy means show charity to those even when they do wrong to you. Not be chummy with them and give them what they want.
It is opposing because you DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
I can control my personal morality which is different to state ethics.
FAIL. Everything that happend in the OT was so that Israel would have its own homeland, and would be free from the influence of evil and sadistic barabarians. Once Israel was stable they never expanded beyond that region, unlike EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world.
An Eye for an eye was the humanist standard of justice since human prehistory. God did not tell them to take revenge on one another. Gods law were given to moses, the priests extrapolated everything from them to suit the culture.
You made this up man, that logic isn't contained in the bible and God never explains it from his own side.
So your saying that it's ok for Jews to take revenge upon one another because there were barbarians who commited evil, even though there were always men who commit evil?
Its contained in christian teaching, which was the basis for the bible. The bible is the product of christianity not the source.
I have not said any such thing. Your ansestors at this time were far more barbaric and worshipped pantheistic deities, who thought the universe would end if they didnt have sex with babies and then slaughter them on an altar to make the sun come up.
The God you are talking about is not my God. Its a god of your own devising, which even you recognise is a retard!
Also, he told people to do exactly that, "if a man asks you for your cloak give him your shirt as well... " etc
True christians would do anything that wouldn't cause evil. If a man asked them to give him their house, then they would, for Christ, but if a man was doing something like taking all the houses and performing the sin of greed by doing so, then yeah they probably shouldn't.
Ok, Ill take the time to explain this one to you ...
In Christ Jesus' time, it was not seen as shameful to be naked, however it WAS seen as shameful to SEE someone naked. People would have to hide their faces in shame. They would wear an over garment and an undergarment, translated as cloak and shirt. If someone sued you, you should submit to the law, but force the person to feel shame at the action. Conftonting them in a non hostile manner... cont.
There are similar necesary cultural teachngs on the two previous examples given as well RE: walking the extra mile and turning the cheek.
Jesus was not tell us, be pacifistic and never stick up for yourself. He was telling us "Do not confront the evildooer" the correct understanding would have been not to confront in violent action. Then he gives these examples, wherein we are to be morally intelligent.
"Ok guys, if anyone wrongs you or hurts you you should wrong them or hurt them back because you know I don't want barbarians to influence how you behave. Also, in about 1000 years I'm going to send my son to tell you to do the exact opposite and treat them with kindness. Also I'm going to hand your land over to a bunch of Romans anyway. LOL"
Its simple. Why dont you stop being an ass, and ask him yourself when you die?
As for me, I know that God had a covenant, the ancient version of what we know as an international peace treaty with Israel. That was the terms of the agreement. God was always faithful to the jews, they eventually always failed God, and had to be recalled on many occasions.
You keep failing at every point, yet you still keep persisting in trying to destroy christian credibility? How sad.
When I die I'll probably cease to have consciousness because as far as we can tell consciousness is solely a product of brain activity(ever hear of brain damage? I think you may suffer from it actually.)
I'm merely making fun of your "INFALLIBLE AND JUST GOD!!!!"
Lol yeah right. "Forgive everyone!" yet God doesn't forgive the Jews but instead blames them for their fathers mistakes... truly logical bro. Very logical indeed. I'm surprised I don't believe in God.
Yes you have; failed to understand scripture, Gods nature, the relationship between God and the Jews. Everything.
Making fun (mocking) always serves the purpose of trying to destroy credibility, you even fail on this point!
Again the RABBINICAL laws are not Gods Laws, but come under and are part of Gods Covenant; the Mosaic Law.
There is NO vicarious forgiveness in Chrsitianity OR Judaism. I am not suprised you dont believe, you seem too cynical & untrusting of anyone but your self-god.
Ahh the famous atheist logic eh? You claim my statements are false based on the presuposition that God does not exist, which you have not proven, and cant prove, in an effort to convince me god does not exist? lol rediculous.
Gods Law was the 10 commandments. Rabbinical law was based on the ten commandments and was developd by the priesthood of the trive of levi & Moses.
You are a cynic, not accepting the explainations when they are presented. You are the joke.
God told humans to behave according to his law, which was an insight into Gods NATURE.
God continually refined mankinds understanding of his law and his nature through the prophets.
God ultimately came to earth as Christ Jesus to complete the contract made between humanity and God through Abraham. To show humanity Gods nature, face to face. Jesus confronted rabbinical law, and corrected their misunderstandings about His nature.
I don't think I can make it any more simple than that so I guess I'll have to elaborate.
You're saying that God's justice never changes and the best expression of justice is THE LAW. Much like our current society.
God wrote down several laws which EXPRESS HIS JUSTICE for a group of jews many of thousands years ago. You say that he was trying to condition jews etc but why didn't he explain that then? Why not just have legions of angels prevent barbarians from influencing the jews?
Why? Because he already has one creature as numerous as the stars who feel the heavy hand of his presence, they are the angels. God ha a purpose and a goal for mankind that places them ABOVE the angels. That Goal requires mankind to be free from all but the lightest touches to our free will. God had a covenant with them, an agreement which required trust and a willfulness to be in accord with Gods nature.
We cant grasp at divinity, which is an interesting concept that philosophy deals with.
He was really telling jews how to behave JUSTLY with one another or as how he behaves similarly (he did do all those things didn't he? he repayed evil etc)
Then you have an entirely NEW branch of teachings which now describes an entirely NEW form of justice which involves not paying back wrongs but entirely forgiving someone and infact loving them even if they are evil.
It's like One God would want you to kill someone who murdered your sister, and One God would want you to help them out. See?
This is a common mistake. Mankinds prime goal is to change his nature to be in accord with Gods nature. OUT of that change comes naturally social development and morality, not the other way around.
I can finally get where you are coming from on this, but I am genuine when I say you are mistaken. It is a perspective that may be logical to you, but is not accurate. You are missing a large chuck of the pie here.
You are dictating to God how he chooses to do waht he does? Outstanding lol!
IF barbaric humans are pushed too hard, they will revolt in their entirity and Christ Jesus would have never been born. God brought people along a path of refinement, just as parents do with their children. Expecting a child to behave, in full as an adult would be as impossible as what you are advocating.
God did not change his commandments, not even once. You dont have a leg to stand on sparky. lol
He's God. He could have sent Jesus down on a purple boat powered by flying unicorns.
He could have used angels to govern his laws instead of jewish officials so he wouldn't have to worry about barbaric influence.
It's not about changing commandments it's about a just nature changing.
Uhh he did change his commandments, in one chapter he says "thou shalt not erect an idol in likeness to heaven" and then he has Moses erect two statues of golden cherubim.
So your entire argument is based on these "what if" scenarios extrapolated to absurd proportions?
Lastly, you do not get to dictate what christianity teaches. YOUR fantasy interpretation is just that, a fantasy. All of mainstream christianity is laughing at you.
Mainstream Christianity is a group of modern people that don't understand the implications of neurobiology and still haven't realized they have been deceived by primitive jews.
My argument is based on the ilogical and contradictory nature of your "god."
You say he acts like a fool because "jews can't handle the truth" and I see no reason to believe why he couldn't be honest besides your irrational reasoning.
Besides, your entire belief system is based on the assumption "what if?"
You failed pulsexx by trying to argue - because you are being inconsistent. If you're a materialist you do not believe in thought... you can only have conditioned cascading chemical reactions.
Reason and rationality belong to those with a psyche (Greek for soul). Materialists don't have souls, they only have firing synapses.
You can't deny mind and then try to persuade.
You can mock other ideas (weak).
Sadly, I can't reason with you because in your view you're behavior is conditioned.
Who ever said that because I believe that consciousness is a materially dependent thing that there is no thought?
Are you an idiot?
We can't even define consciousness properly, but it very apparently is produced by chemical reactions. I would say it that human consciousness is far from pre-determined because it has the capability to understand it's conditions and transcend those factors.
If I say you're going to walk through a door, you could walk out a window
@ArchaelogistPhil Well I meant similarly... Confucius seems to occasionally be associated with Shang-Di or Tien (ancient China's absolute supreme God/being over all!) in terms of the relation of beliefs. I'm not the one who's crazy beyond medical help.
HamonLord 2 months ago
i believe there was a time when all nations worshiped the true God but eventually turned away.
falcomera22 7 months ago
Shang Di, as I know of, is not a deity at all. It is just a personification of the physical sky, the stars, the celestials. Ancient Chinese were intrigued by the stars, they were the first to discover supernovae, lunar/solar eclipses, constellations, etc. This concept describes the awe they had towards the stars, and the Mandate of Heaven (Emperor of China) was given so much respect, because he was thought to be the one who could truly decipher the message of the stars.
Graymoths 7 months ago
I believe some of you are just using this as a way to tie Shang Di to the Abrahamic religions. Note this, there are other entities that were worshipped before Shang Di, such as Nuwa, the creator goddess, Pangu, and the Jade Emperor. This is just one deity that fits into the description of your "God" out of thousands, which is no surprise really due to the huge probability. I am Chinese, born into a traditional Shenist background. And this is a fallacy.
Graymoths 7 months ago
@Graymoths I am doing a research about Chinese folk religion.
May I ask, who is the Supreme Deity in the Chinese folk religion?
I am confused between The Three Pure Ones, Pangu, and Tian.
nomarjr3 4 months ago
@nomarjr3 Well the first and foremoest prime God in the ancient chinese folk religion is and always has been Shang-Di (or Tien), since He is in my view for all intents and purposes, absolute, eternal, infinite, omnipotent (to the prime degree), omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, and supreme above all and everything else and is the origin/creator of the universe (or as some mystics, philosophers, or metaphysicists would say omniverse).
HamonLord 2 months ago
@nomarjr3 But yeah if you believe in strictly the Taoist stuff, then it's either Tian or Pangu.... or the Dao (depending on your interpretation)... the Three Pure Ones are the highest aspects of the supreme being or princple like the indian trimurti is to Brahman/Ishvara (God) in hinduism. Pangu is more like a demiurgic creator.
The absolute supreme or highest of the religious or philosophical Chinese gods/beings/entities watch over the universe and all 72 layers of heaven and hell.
HamonLord 2 months ago
@HamonLord obsessed?
eelco2012 3 weeks ago
@eelco2012 if by "obsessed", you mean "rightly fascinated with his the richness of his own heritage and if you don't like it's none of your business", then yes I am.
HamonLord 3 weeks ago
@HamonLord are you chinese?
eelco2012 3 weeks ago
@eelco2012 yes... otherwise why would I even be admiring and supporting the Chinese God almighty, the Dao, and all His/Their Pretties?
HamonLord 3 weeks ago
@HamonLord dunno why would anyone would want to praise a "god" anyway?
eelco2012 3 weeks ago
@eelco2012 cause they're gods and absolute divine beings/entities, they're for all intents and purposes MEANT to be praised and loved like art and stuff? that's the purpose of most if not all gods and such figures/icons/symbols/beings/entities out there! it just absolutely bamboozles the hell out of me as to why anyone can ask such a question as to why anyone would praise a "god", especially when it's a part of their own culture and heritage. <_<
HamonLord 3 weeks ago
@HamonLord are "gods" attention whores?
eelco2012 3 weeks ago
@eelco2012 eff you man, that is the silliest fucking question I have ever been asked. Yeah sure, they're about as much attention whores are your parents, your favorite basketball player, your favorite philosopher, your favorite writer, your favorite singer or idol, your favorite dancer, your favorite historical figure, etc. Gods are sacred beings that we all love, respect, admire, appreciate, and enjoy in every way just like art, culture, poetry, music, and other such expressions or things.
HamonLord 3 weeks ago
I am a Han Chinese. If Chinese go back to abt 400BC there is none all of the above goddess that you mentioned. It's only confucianism. It is much later( 250AD) that other man-created gods were created. gods that are created for lesson purpose like goddess of mercy and many more. Sometime it's strange that even we know the author of the book and we still worship and believe the character in the story book, i.e monkey god, & pray to the moon.
fcstupid 2 months ago
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Graymoths 7 months ago
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confucius is not a prophet, he is a teacher
johnnyf1ve 8 months ago
in all seriousness, Shang Di as a God Himself really deserves some good respect from the non-Sinophone world.
HamonLord 8 months ago
Shang Di is China's first and absolute supreme and greatest God ever! He is also oen of the world's oldest monotheistic Gods/traditions ever! Praise be to Him forever and ever! The Chinese shall show the world that their country's technology, economy, inventions, and arts aren't the only things that have dominated, but also their God, Shang Di! And his prophet Confucius!
HamonLord 8 months ago
I do not have a religion. But has anyone considered that Buddha, Jesus, prophet Mohd and other religious human-form representations could actually be that Almighty God manifestation in human form in different eras? You see, it appears to me Buddha, Jesus, Prophet etc didn't co-exist but the basic teachings of all these so-called religions have a common thread through them.
minghan05 1 year ago
@minghan05
Jesus is unique. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but by me." He's the only one that dared to say, I am the one.
You can believe what he said, or not. Just realize he is unique among the world religious figures.
biggbaddjohn 1 year ago
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this is stupid, they just wanted to explane their existance, just like the rest of the world... it's all bullsh*t.
of course they recognize one god.. they wanted to have a leader..
MrWaddefak 1 year ago
this is stupid, they just wanted to explane their existance, just like the rest of the world... it's all bullshit.
of course they recognize one god.. they wanted to have a leader..
MrWaddefak 1 year ago
I am sooo happy to hear this,,,I am now studying Chinese history and am happy that they are an ancient society that truelly recognize the one God. The Most High...just like the Abrahamic faiths.
GoldenChom23 1 year ago
this is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo old tradition
cause all that time there was buddhim, Confucianism and Taoism and all that jazz, the emperor would sit down and read to shang di once a year, for 2100 years we had all those other religions, WTF?
IWillRushYou 1 year ago
Bravo, Bravo, great video...
StopPanSlavicLies 1 year ago
Buddhism is non-theistic, it's all got to do with the Pali cannon, Jainism and Buddhism came from that branch, buddhism ended up non-theistic while Jainism became A-theistic.
BeamSurfer 1 year ago
Buddha was not an atheist, Buddhism is really a philosophy and you gotta understand that, some buddhists believe in god, the point is that preaching god wasn't necceasary since people there already believed in god Buddha's teachings were use just a guide, infact anyone can have another religion and add buddhism to it,
BeamSurfer 1 year ago
Anyway, its not pronounced sh-hang-dee, but more like the past tense of hang, hung. Like william hung. Sh-hung-dee. Ang in chinese is always ung and not the american ang sound.
89jcwh 1 year ago
@89jcwh
Good point, that didn`t even click for me until you said it. For example `Hangzhou` is pronounced `Hung Joe`, but foreigners always say `Hang zow`.
RaymondCorrigan 1 year ago
Shangdi, to the ancient chinese bears a strong resemblance to the God of the jews, Yahweh. Shangdi has a personality and character, but no real form, and Shangdi created the world and man and has a relationship with man. How this god-figure arised in isolated ancient China warrants looking into. I'm chinese, and christian, and i believe the ancient chinese knew the one true God, God of abraham, isaac and jacob, and they called him Shangdi.
89jcwh 1 year ago
Throughout history, God sent prophets and messengers to every nation to guide mankind. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise us that even China (which most today think is irreligious) had a monotheistic past. Since our father Adam's creation, religion has always been for God.
"For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), 'Serve God, and eschew Evil'." (Quran, 16:36)
('We' is used instead of 'I' as a plural of respect in Semitic languages.)
MrRandomflow 1 year ago
God Bless you Randall Niles.
HamonLord 1 year ago
I am Chinese (and a Christian), but I believe Shang Di is the supreme overgod of my heritage's collective religions and is almighty. :D
HamonLord 1 year ago
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
draphaelc 1 year ago
a greek pagan told me that he wasnt really a pagan and that just because the 12 greek gods were called god , they werent really gods, they were like imaginative like beings but believe that they actually exists. they were benevolent demons but demon is a degratory meaning therefore it wasnt used
the greek pagan said that zeus and co. believed in a one high god and they called him the unknown.
this was also proposed by aristotles
and Persians werent pagans
they were zoroastrians.
papasmurfXXX 1 year ago 2
i thought buddhists were atheist......
is this china before buddha?
papasmurfXXX 1 year ago
Shang di is used by Chinese-speaking Christians to call the Almighty. However, the interesting thing is that nearly every person in the Chinese world believes that Tian (Heaven) is real, some using an even more intimate name, Lao Tian Ye (Old Heaven Grandfather). All without form and image.
Sorry if that was too generalizing a bit but it's not that far from the truth.
tung2sai 1 year ago
did buddhism affect shangdi in any way?
TheSuperItalian123 1 year ago
@TheSuperItalian123
Satan always want to become god, so Satan plan Buddha is bigger than god.
Every human being can become Buddha which is greater than god.
So Buddhism is direct affect Shang Di The Highest Position.
We can become god, I think you love it, go eat the evil apple LOL (DNA)
fightforfair 1 year ago
most of humanity believed in dragons. so does this mean dragoins exist?or must have existed? even the bible mentions dragons..so Where are all of the dragons???just because most of humanity has a similar mythology does not make it real it just means we are all humans and more alike than we want to admit despite of cultural differences.
cjfilmproductions 1 year ago
Without water there can be no thirst.
Maybe man's desire for a true God is proof itself that a God exists? I believe T.S Elliot said something like this. But of course, many Atheists would say that the need for God would be replaced once the unknown becomes known. (i.e, Science). IDK man. just an agnostic asking question.
Lobotomick 1 year ago
I think that Shang Di is the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But he has a wife, and her name is Kwai-Yin. This ruined my belief.
anythingnew 2 years ago
"And certainly We sent messengers before you: there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you..."[Qur'an 40:78]
"For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger..."[Qur'an 16:36]
Muslims believe god has sent 124,000 prophets. No nation has not had a prophet pass through them. So all peoples have some of that message still present in their religion. This is the only religion in the world that states this. Believe people. Believe
01frosts 2 years ago
@01frosts
Angels and Satan (Allah) send Prophets too.
Islam reject Book of Genesis, this include Reject Prophet Moses.
Islam say God have no image, Jesus say we are image of God.
fightforfair 2 years ago
We are the image of god in what way?
God has eyes, nose, mouth, fingers, feet, knees an anus and a penis?
If god has a mouth and he creates though his word then his mouth must get dry and in need a water. So he drinks some. It goes through gods stomach and urinary system until he has to let it out from somewhere right?
Is that your god?
Sure isn't mine.
The creator of this infinite universe is not limited by this monkey form.
P.s. Islam doesn't reject genesis. It only says it has errors.
01frosts 2 years ago
@01frosts
Don't trick by Satan LOL
Genesis got a lot version with error include
NIV, ASV, RSV and Quran.
The real Genesis version without error:
KJV and coded in Chinese writing system.
fightforfair 2 years ago
Doesn't Islam reject the old testament?
Then where was God's message to man before Mohammad?
designedsayer 2 years ago
@fightforfair never knew china had monthesim
TheSuperItalian123 1 year ago
Cool Video! Thanks for making this.
ScrapGoldBass 2 years ago
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Elyon and Shang Di may have very well been the same.
Uzzielaa 2 years ago
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Uzzielaa 2 years ago
"I am the Lord I change not." -
Malachi 3:6
"You have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I say turn the other cheek"
-Matthew 5:38
pulsexx 2 years ago
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people. "
Matthew 27:50-53
The basis of the entire christian religions is based on the veracity of these claims, yet there are no historical documents of the dead returning to life?
pulsexx 2 years ago
So basically you believe a historically inaccurate book that is full of contradictions was written by a perfect immutable being.
I am suppose to believe this?
So far your only evidence is that you believe it and so do others and then you proceed to make up ambiguous excuses for your made-up God.
I could make up things about my God as well.
He can contradict himself and still be perfect. Just cause he's God.
Yeah, beat that.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Basically what it comes down to is that a tribe of jews recorded a "holy text handed down to them from God's prophets" but it is filled with errors and isn't much more appealing nor impressive than other religious texts.
It's probably a group of stories written by an ancient people, and you are grasping at straws and pulling out deep meaning from it when in actuality probably not that much thought was put into in the first place.
And your only logic is that you believe it.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Everyone .....don't just list to this Gentle man....read for yourself....Search Wikipedia for "Shang Di" and "Xin Dynasty" and all the other dynasties...and you'll get the whole picture...and for those of you who know Scripture...you Will see the God we know as the JEHOVAH God being revealed...and one other thing, that is y Jesus said "go ye into ALL the earth and preach the good news that mankind is redeemed"
kadjach 2 years ago
God is made up bro.
If there was a god don't you think he'd have an eternity to write a perfect book?
Don't you think that book would be infinitely more complex than the bible that is filled with errors and inconsistencies?
pulsexx 2 years ago
First off calling God made up is just pure ignorant, U cant prove or disprove the existence of God,
Second the Bible isnt filled with errors , this show ur lack of bible understanding, because u dont understand it doesnt mean its filled with errors
kmjansen83 2 years ago
for some reason i cant reply to you with a lengthy post
pulsexx 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
So I'm going to have to break it down line by line. lol soryr.
pulsexx 2 years ago
God? What God? There has been a different "God" imagined by every culture through history.
pulsexx 2 years ago
I can't disprove the existence of God but I can prove that your religion was created by fallible men and not a perfect intelligence.
pulsexx 2 years ago
You really think that the bible was written by the Mind that conceived of the universe considering that its linguistic style is exactly like similar religous texts(greek, hindu, etc)?
pulsexx 2 years ago
just a question...have you ever truly read the Bible...especially Genesis? then you'll realise that no other 'religion' even comes close to the awe of the Creation account...& why is it that another old recorded culture testify of the same GOD...ask yourself...Dude, humanity was confused at the Tower of Babel...but they all knew who GOD was, they just had different names for Him...but after a few centuries some lost Him...but the JEWS never did, thats y we hav the Bible...but China also testify
kadjach 2 years ago
The bible is full of historical errors, inconsistencies and contradictions :
Do a google search for "krysstal bible contradictions" and see for your self if you don't believe me.
pulsexx 2 years ago
I know you're going to come up with excuses for why your god's holy book is imperfect but it's just more logical that God would create an immaculate document rather than an understandably human text.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Your entire premise is flawed. This is like saying Science is all rubbish because, you can look back throughout scientific history and see a multitude of mistakes that have been made.
Theology is mankinds ordered attempt at understanding special revelation.
Sciences are mankinds ordered attempt at understanding common revelation.
Both have to alter their theories when proved inacurate, both move forward and improve their understanding over time.
Thats the way human understanding works.
havock89 2 years ago
What your saying makes no god damn sense. What I'm saying is that if an experiment were flawed then you would no longer believe it's results.
It's simple : Religions receive their message from a "divine source."
Science tries to produce theories based on verifiable experiments. Science is human.
They aren't related at all really besides the fact that they are supposedly both based on truth.
One is inspired by mankind's imagination and one is supposedly an accurate, unbiased observation.
pulsexx 2 years ago
It makes no sense to you because your a bad student of christianity.
Theology has verifiable experiments too. Its seen and lived in the lives of the saints, the experiences of the apostles, this is the divine inspiration accumulated throughout history and stored in the sacred texts of christianity. All verifiable, all true, and only a few of these collections of texts is what you would know as the "bible". Christianity is far broader, that your limited experience of it.
havock89 2 years ago
Genesis is a joke and isn't even consistent with itself.
Actually I studied christianity a lot, and in fact I've studied every major religion and I see them for what they truly are, expressions of human consciousness and not manifestations of a magical divine being.
Some religions may deal with a mystical void though which may or may not exist but I wouldn't qualify it as "conscious".
Also, saints produce "miracles" because humans have untapped potential not because God helped them.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Your understanding of Christianity is a joke you mean. Genesis is a highly intricate and useful theological text, and I pity your lack of proper understanding. But your not christian, so it doesnt matter.
Putting the terms magical and divine together is a bit of an oxymoron, and shows you dont understand the nature of either.
Stamping secular "opinions" on what God does or doesn't do onto christian teachings is just plain fantasy.
havock89 2 years ago
Your talking bullshit. Genesis is a creation myth invented by a tribe of jews about as intricate as the mayans or native americans. Unfortunately the jews aren't consistent with their own made up facts (THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE in SIX DAYS? RIGHT! NO SEVEN! LOL!) and contradict themselves.
Your arguing semantics which just proves your lack of a grasp on the English language. Magic breaks the laws of nature, Divinity breaks the laws of nature, look it up.
Lastly, what are you trying to say?
pulsexx 2 years ago
You didnt seem to notice that I said Genesis was a theological text, not a historical one. There are two creation stories, they both speak of fundamental and complex truths about reality, but are not historical or scientific.
Its not a sematic to use correct methodologies for correct categories of study. It is however, highly stupid to rely on category fallacies and ad hominem and ad absurdium fallacies as you have .
Lastly divine "Super"nature superceeds nature, and does not "break" it.
havock89 2 years ago
magic : "the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature."
read the dictionary please.
Also, I don't think you understand Genesis. It's a symbolic retelling of creation. If it is a truthful recount of what happened, even though it may be told through metaphor it is scientific. I studied every major branch of Christianity(well Gnosticism and Catholicism)
pulsexx 2 years ago
"You didnt seem to notice that I said Genesis was a theological text, not a historical one. There are two creation stories, they both speak of fundamental and complex truths about reality, but are not historical or scientific.
Its not a sematic to use correct methodologies for correct categories of study. It is however, highly stupid to rely on category fallacies and ad hominem and ad absurdium fallacies as you have .
Lastly divine "Super"nature superceeds nature, and does not "break" it."
pulsexx 2 years ago
that was havoks post that i replied to that he probably removed because it made him look so utterfly foolish.
pulsexx 2 years ago
I have not removed anything I have said. I do not normally respond rashly. Another argumentium ad hominem from someone who has nothing meaningful to say.
havock89 2 years ago
This is your assertion, not the assertion of Christianity. It is a story that is designed to give people their first and fundamental understanding about the relationship between mankind and God.
You are a bad student.
havock89 2 years ago
I pity you if you think genesis describes your relationship to your God.
"Oh adam! Where art thou!"
lol... he's God... he's supposedly inside of your soul.
whatever, believe what you want.
Technically I have been arguing ad hominem since I'm attacking your beliefs, but we are arguing about your beliefs in the first place.
Anyway, genesis was a creation story made by a bunch of ancient jews, interpret it however you want, but you honestly think it was inspired by an eternal mind? I mean clearly
pulsexx 2 years ago
Yes I do think it was inspired by an eternal mind, and so does other greater minds than yourself, like Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project.
Again, your infantile comments show you have not given anything more than a cursoity and glance to what is actually a very subtle form of literature with huge historical and litarary context which MUST be applied to gain understanding.
Irregardless of what we are talking about you should not be using any logical fallacies.
havock89 2 years ago
How do you measure whether or not someone has a greater mind than someone else? If he believes in the catholic dogma then I highly doubt the superiority of his intelligence. Unfortunately I can't speak with him and make a fool of him personally. And that's what bugs me.
Also that's not a very strong case because none of the greatest minds throughout history have been christian.
It's not a logical fallacy if we are arguing about what you believe. If we were arguing about abortion then itwouldbe
pulsexx 2 years ago
Great minds do great things, and make the world better. Some are: Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Galileo Galilei, John F Kennedy, Salvador Dali, Rosa Parks, Father George Lemaitre, CS Lewis, Andy Warhol, Oscar Schindler, Oscar Widle, GK Chesterton, Isaac Newton, Pope John Paul II, Martin Luther Kin, Jr., King Alfred the Great, Michelangelo Buonarroti, the cosmologist Arthur Eddington, noted chemist Michael Polanyi, nobel prise winner William Phillips & my favourite Rustram Roy!
Just a few...
havock89 2 years ago
That's nice, unfortunately most of those great minds had a incomplete understanding of the bible and christianity in general.
Also, would you say someone who taught the world about physics, biology, philosophy, religion, and spirituality would be considered a great mind?
pulsexx 2 years ago
That is an assertion that is based totally on your own authority. Making a list of scientists over the last 500 years would reveal a huge percentage of priests and monks. This does not even take into account the number of artists who have inspired makind and changed the world for the better.
You have no arguments to stand on, and even your logic has failed. Too bad sparky! lol
havock89 2 years ago
What is your argument exactly?
The greatest and most influential minds of our time have been atheists or agnostic with a very small minority being Christian, and most of those that were Christian were raised that way and didn't convert after magically realizing the inherent logic or intelligence in the bible and those that did convert never had scholars tell them about the flaws in their religion or if they did I've never seen popular arguments by them defending their case.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Example : "C.S. Lewis had full faith in the inherent consistency in scripture and believed that if we actively sought the truth that all these problems would evaporate."
Didn't happen. Pulling at strings based on imagination and faith instead of inherent logic.
pulsexx 2 years ago
CS Lewis is quite clear on his thinking, and you simply stating "didnt happen!" does not make it so.
You tend to rely on this type of argument (if it can be called that) and you do not engage the flaws in your argument. You play logical hopscotch.
havock89 2 years ago
The problems didn't evaporate, the bible never explained itself. People concocted they own explanations based on their own imaginings and not the uncovering of a grand design scheme.
It didn't happen, as in C.S. Lewis never found those answers and was never able to explain himself.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Once again, simply stating it is so, does not make it so.
Lewis found a complete and logical answer for all philosophical and moral issues through christian teaching. Its in his own words. I think you are simply a bad student.
havock89 2 years ago
Lewis said that eventually people would figure out the inherent logic in the bible, instead of admitting that the bible doesn't prove itself, and that people have to make up notions that aren't mentioned in the bible at all to explain it away or simply admit that it is filled with errors and isn't a perfect document.
It's obvious really when you realize how it was put together.
pulsexx 2 years ago
You are simply showing your blind faith in your own flawed sense of logic. The bible is not the source of christianity, it is merely the core-teaching aid of the church. The bible is the product of Christianity, not its ultimate source.
He didnt admit it didnt prove itself because your argument is a strawman. You fail.
It isnt filled with errors, you are making this conclusion without showing your logic on what and how exactly - Appeal to authority, you fail.
Who's idea of perfect btw?
havock89 2 years ago
I am merely observing reality, I don't think you even understand what is going on because you're still misled by your beliefs.
You need to look at this from both angles.
I used to be a staunch gnostic and used Richard Dawkins arguments quite frequently to vehemently defend my side, but since I've done more research and looked deeper into all of the world's religion I've come to understand that none of them are undeniably divine, and there is little to no evidence or logic behind any of them.
pulsexx 2 years ago
The best way I can describe the world's religion is like using a metaphor.
"Mr. President, if you understand what is going on, why don't you tell us?
Because I don't want to."
"Why did you leave a mess of your office?
Because I wanted to."
Very logical indeed.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Anyway, if you want to know about my search for God I can tell you.
Basically there are only 3 ways we can learn of or know of God: 1) Through direct revelation for a spiritual source. 2) Direct mystical experience in which the mystic has insight into the divine or nature. 3) Observation of the natural world in which we look for evidence of Intelligent Design or Signs from God.
pulsexx 2 years ago
1) The problem is there is no evidence that any of these books were written by an omniscient mind. There are no facts of existence that only God would know but that humans of their time wouldn't be able to guess. If the bible casually mentioned protons and neutrons and electrons then I would be sold. Often however, they get the facts of existence incorrect, and make up their own mythology. In worse case scenarios they get their own history wrong and the God within the book contradicts itself.
pulsexx 2 years ago
2) The problem is that while many of these experiences are similar, the ones that are seemingly legitimate end up being hallucinations, and then there is no way to discriminate between a hallicunation and the real thing. For instance, 30 people have a near death experience where they see their dead relatives, then meet a being of light and have a review of their life. All sounds very convincing doesn't it? Unfortunately one of those persons will someone who will see someone who isn't even dead.
pulsexx 2 years ago
(continued)... during their reunion with deceased relatives. It becomes very clear that that person had a typical experience, but also hallucinated some aspects of it. This person had exactly the same experience as the others, but half of it was false. We can assume that it was the exact type of altered mystical experience that the others were perceiving, but now we understand it's nature better, as a creation of the human mind and not it's own independent reality.
pulsexx 2 years ago
3) Finally we can perceive God through his work in creation. This was probably the best argument for God because there are so many cases of mind blowing beauty or intricate design but unfortunately even all of this can be explained without an omniscient father figure. The popular scientific explanation is blind chance and if you're a biologist then natural selection certainly helps. If you're more open minded you may consider quantum wholeness, molecular intelligence or a mystical order (Tao).
pulsexx 2 years ago
... and also you would figure a God would be able to create a flawless creation. All of these other possibilities explain these apparent flaws quite easily without bringing "God just wanted it that way" into the argument.
Yeah, it's nice to have an image of God as the Perfect, Flawless, Infallible, Brilliant, Fashioner but all you need to do is look at all these failed biological mutations and see why this just isn't the case.
pulsexx 2 years ago
You see no evidence because you are a bad student and cant grasp the concepts therein. This I am already aware of about you.
havock89 2 years ago
you never really answered anything, you just keep telling me I am a bad student when in actuality I just see the things that normal logical people see. And honestly, what do you not understand about there being no evidence of omniscience?
There's no evidence of an omniscient author. There's no evidence that the beings met in mystical experiences are real. There's no evidence that the beautiful patterns in nature are caused by a deity.
Please prove me wrong, I've done my research man.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Its simple really. Your intellect isnt working correctly. Christianity when studied fully, is the only religion that stands up to critical analysis. Assuming you dont have a cynical disposition which will distort findings as & when they come your way. This unfortunately is what you do. One example is the inaccurate understanding of why the bible is the word of God, which you have mentioned above. If you are gettings stuff like this wrong, it explains a lot.
PM me if you want to continue this.
havock89 2 years ago
By the way, since you are so wise and understanding, please share your expertise on these incredibly brilliant concepts that only a omniscient mind could create.
pulsexx 2 years ago
what rubbish.
havock89 2 years ago
Anyway there is logic in the bible, and it gives a general moral outline, but it is hardly proof of omniscience. No holy book is.
You can tell that the Koran is made by man by one glaring fact: it contains a historical error because the writers of the Koran received their information about history from other cultures and not from an Omniscient God. It's such a shame that their "flawless" holy book that was sent down directly from God is proved to be a fraud with one human error.
pulsexx 2 years ago
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." - John 3:13 " ... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." - 2 Kings 2:11
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water." - Leviticus 26:11 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them." - Exodus 25:18
pulsexx 2 years ago
" God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent." - Numbers 23:19 " And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:14
"I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:30 "No man hath seen God at any time." - John 1:18
pulsexx 2 years ago
"God is not a man, that he should lie" - Numbers 23:19
"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." - Ezekiel 24:9
"... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." - Jeremiah 3:12
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." - Jeremiah 17:4
pulsexx 2 years ago
I can go on C.S. Lewis, I can go on...
pulsexx 2 years ago
You could, but you would be wasting your time.
Everything you have mentioned is simply proof of your own inaccurate understanding of Christianity, and your inability to either understand of accept what you have bene taught.
Poor theology rests on poor philosophy.
havock89 2 years ago
Richard Dawkins is easy to dismiss. He is a good example of what happens when you let a lab tech outta the lab. He is a bigot and a moral idiot.
Christianity has complete logic behind it. Its the same logic that developed modern science, law, human rights and the free market economy. It has given us every great institution, and kept us safe and secure to the point where we can produce indolent and ungrateful children who dont know logic from unfounded opinion. You have no argument.
havock89 2 years ago
Ah, I meant Francis Collins, not Richard Dawkins, their names sound similar... my bad.
I was just saying I was familiar with authors you were talking about and was using them to prove my own case: that God exists.
After thorough research I have come to a different conclusion, like many gnostics/christians/hindus/jews/muslims/etc...
Buddhism isn't really a religion, it's more of a way of life...
pulsexx 2 years ago
Thats what christianity is supposed to be. Originally we were simply called followers of the Way. Jesus is The Way, The Truth, and The Light.
Buddism is a religion, and a very useful one too - within a given scope. Its a better position to be in than being an atheist.
havock89 2 years ago
I don't think you understand what I mean by logic.
It doesn't make sense unless you make stuff up to suit your own doubts.
"God is perfect and almighty and never changes"
"God wants A."
"God wants B."
"A and B contradict one another"
"Oh well... God can change his mind, HE IS GOD AFTER ALL LOL!!!"
pulsexx 2 years ago
This is embarassingly simple.
God cannot do anything he wants. He cannot be unjust, and he cannot sin. When you understand Gods nature better, you relaise why he is limited in this fashion.
Unless you talk about specifics, this simple formula thing means nothing. There are only things that seem, to the uneducated, to be contradictions. There are no contradictions. There are mysteries to do with the nature of God, but then He wouldnt be much of a God if we could understand him fully!
havock89 2 years ago
Explain any of those contradictions with your great intellect, won't you sir?
pulsexx 2 years ago
As I said, as someone who has studied christianity PROPERLY, there are no contradictions. Give me a specific to discuss and I will obligue.
Beyond this I have made my point that you are commenting from ignorance or proper christian philosophy and theology.
havock89 2 years ago
You see the problem is all that stuff is made up and you can tell it's made up because it doesn't have any self-contained logic.
It's more like "anything goes if you can think of a crazy excuse!!"
pulsexx 2 years ago
And now you strawman, because have failed. IF you are arguing that there are contradictions, you have to go on the assumtion that there is a God, simply for the purpose of the discussion.
IF you are arguing for the non-existence of God, then you cannot be making a chriticism on its teachings, which is based on the premise that this God exists.
You're illogical.
More people have converted to christianity than any other relgion, because its not based on crasy excuses. Unlike atheism.
havock89 2 years ago
Malachi 3:6-Matthew 5:38
God's immutable sense of justice has changed.
First it was more just to take revenge upon someone and later it is more just to forgive someone.
Unfortunately you are a christian and thus can't have a legitimate philosophical discussion about the nature of justice, but anyway: Justice does truly exist as an ideal, but there is no such thing as absolute justice
pulsexx 2 years ago
Malachi 3:6 - "Surely I, the LORD, do not change, nor do you cease to be sons of Jacob."
This is God declaring He is ever faithful to the covenant that binds him and the sons of jacob together.
Matthew 5:28 - This here is heavily dependent on your understanding of jewish like and custom..
There is no contrditions here at all! Once again your prejudice has been shown to be based on ignorance.
havock89 2 years ago
You interpret it in an illogical fashion to support it's logical flaws.
Good job.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Are you really that dim? The arrogance!
Listen, you are outside the box. You have no say on what christianity teaches or how the church practices its faith. I have explained christian teaching, out of the goodness of my heart, because as an incredibly bad student or an intellectual moron (ill let you choose), you have been getting it wrong! Your response to this, is that I, who am christian are illogical?
Simply stating something is illogical does not make it so, show it.
havock89 2 years ago
God is immutable. He has unchanging qualities, such as his justness.
God is absolutely just, what he deems is right is always right.
Then in the bible his sense of justice changes.
It's a clear contradiction. This isn't mixing old teachings with new teachings, it's changing the basis of what is considered right and what is considered wrong.
Christians always backpedal and come up with crazy shit that doesn't really answer the problem.
Yeah he made a covenant with Jews, that he also breaks.
pulsexx 2 years ago
You will have to give me some examples of this ficticious changing, I am unaware of what you are talking about.
God did not break the covenant with the Jews. He fullfilled it through Christ Jesus. Christ made the new covenant with the apostles. Hence His church.
Christians who have a simple faith may backpedal becayse they are not prepared for your innane level of cynical scrutany, I however am.
God is always faithful to his agreements.
havock89 2 years ago
"an eye for an eye, a life for a life" vs "turn the other cheek, love your enemy"
In reality this translates to two opposing moral view points. "Kill him so that justice may be served" vs "no forgive him so that justice may be served".
pulsexx 2 years ago
Try and get this in your thick head. God was trying to de-program the jews which came out of the egyptian nihilistic culture of "an eye for an eye". Turn the other cheek is based on jewish culture at jesus' time. Love (imprecise term) your enemy means show charity to those even when they do wrong to you. Not be chummy with them and give them what they want.
It is opposing because you DONT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
I can control my personal morality which is different to state ethics.
havock89 2 years ago
You're making that "social deprogramming" up again to conform with today's way of thinking.
To put it simply, "God" instructed them on how to run their societies by taking revenge on one another.
Then later Jesus told them to forgive one another.
So you're saying God's justness is no longer immutable or unconditioinal? Once again you contradict your self.
Christians make up wild batshit instead of admitting they were deceived by ancient jews. LOL
pulsexx 2 years ago
FAIL. Everything that happend in the OT was so that Israel would have its own homeland, and would be free from the influence of evil and sadistic barabarians. Once Israel was stable they never expanded beyond that region, unlike EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world.
An Eye for an eye was the humanist standard of justice since human prehistory. God did not tell them to take revenge on one another. Gods law were given to moses, the priests extrapolated everything from them to suit the culture.
havock89 2 years ago
You made this up man, that logic isn't contained in the bible and God never explains it from his own side.
So your saying that it's ok for Jews to take revenge upon one another because there were barbarians who commited evil, even though there were always men who commit evil?
OK buddy... your God is a retard.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Its contained in christian teaching, which was the basis for the bible. The bible is the product of christianity not the source.
I have not said any such thing. Your ansestors at this time were far more barbaric and worshipped pantheistic deities, who thought the universe would end if they didnt have sex with babies and then slaughter them on an altar to make the sun come up.
The God you are talking about is not my God. Its a god of your own devising, which even you recognise is a retard!
havock89 2 years ago
Also, he told people to do exactly that, "if a man asks you for your cloak give him your shirt as well... " etc
True christians would do anything that wouldn't cause evil. If a man asked them to give him their house, then they would, for Christ, but if a man was doing something like taking all the houses and performing the sin of greed by doing so, then yeah they probably shouldn't.
pulsexx 2 years ago
WRONG again. Hahaha this is pathetic!
Ok, Ill take the time to explain this one to you ...
In Christ Jesus' time, it was not seen as shameful to be naked, however it WAS seen as shameful to SEE someone naked. People would have to hide their faces in shame. They would wear an over garment and an undergarment, translated as cloak and shirt. If someone sued you, you should submit to the law, but force the person to feel shame at the action. Conftonting them in a non hostile manner... cont.
havock89 2 years ago
There are similar necesary cultural teachngs on the two previous examples given as well RE: walking the extra mile and turning the cheek.
Jesus was not tell us, be pacifistic and never stick up for yourself. He was telling us "Do not confront the evildooer" the correct understanding would have been not to confront in violent action. Then he gives these examples, wherein we are to be morally intelligent.
havock89 2 years ago
It's simple, why wouldn't God just tell the jews to exile barbarians instead of taking revenge upon them?
One form of your god's justice is brutal and one form of your god's justice is kind.
Are you that blind?
I think it's easier for most christians to lie to themselves instead of admitting they've been deceived by a group of primitive jews.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Let me paraphrase for your God :
"Ok guys, if anyone wrongs you or hurts you you should wrong them or hurt them back because you know I don't want barbarians to influence how you behave. Also, in about 1000 years I'm going to send my son to tell you to do the exact opposite and treat them with kindness. Also I'm going to hand your land over to a bunch of Romans anyway. LOL"
pulsexx 2 years ago
Its simple. Why dont you stop being an ass, and ask him yourself when you die?
As for me, I know that God had a covenant, the ancient version of what we know as an international peace treaty with Israel. That was the terms of the agreement. God was always faithful to the jews, they eventually always failed God, and had to be recalled on many occasions.
You keep failing at every point, yet you still keep persisting in trying to destroy christian credibility? How sad.
havock89 2 years ago
I havent' failed at any point.
When I die I'll probably cease to have consciousness because as far as we can tell consciousness is solely a product of brain activity(ever hear of brain damage? I think you may suffer from it actually.)
I'm merely making fun of your "INFALLIBLE AND JUST GOD!!!!"
Lol yeah right. "Forgive everyone!" yet God doesn't forgive the Jews but instead blames them for their fathers mistakes... truly logical bro. Very logical indeed. I'm surprised I don't believe in God.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Yes you have; failed to understand scripture, Gods nature, the relationship between God and the Jews. Everything.
Making fun (mocking) always serves the purpose of trying to destroy credibility, you even fail on this point!
Again the RABBINICAL laws are not Gods Laws, but come under and are part of Gods Covenant; the Mosaic Law.
There is NO vicarious forgiveness in Chrsitianity OR Judaism. I am not suprised you dont believe, you seem too cynical & untrusting of anyone but your self-god.
havock89 2 years ago
You don't understand God's nature or relationship between God and the Jews either because it's all bogus and you can't admit you got deceived. :}
What does it matter that it was "Mosaic law" as opposed to God's law if this was God's sense of justice?
I mean do you speak english?
You propose your "God" is always just but that his morality (the difference between right and wrong behavior) changes.
It's a joke really, you try to dress it up with excuses like "Well when God makes covenants "...
pulsexx 2 years ago
Ahh the famous atheist logic eh? You claim my statements are false based on the presuposition that God does not exist, which you have not proven, and cant prove, in an effort to convince me god does not exist? lol rediculous.
Gods Law was the 10 commandments. Rabbinical law was based on the ten commandments and was developd by the priesthood of the trive of levi & Moses.
You are a cynic, not accepting the explainations when they are presented. You are the joke.
havock89 2 years ago
You seem to have poor comprehension skills. I will try to dumb it down for you.
GOD'S JUSTICE DOES NOT CHANGE
GOD TOLD HUMANS HOW TO BEHAVE JUSTLY
GOD TOLD HUMANS TO BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY
pulsexx 2 years ago
Gods justice does not change. True
God told humans to behave according to his law, which was an insight into Gods NATURE.
God continually refined mankinds understanding of his law and his nature through the prophets.
God ultimately came to earth as Christ Jesus to complete the contract made between humanity and God through Abraham. To show humanity Gods nature, face to face. Jesus confronted rabbinical law, and corrected their misunderstandings about His nature.
havock89 2 years ago
I don't think I can make it any more simple than that so I guess I'll have to elaborate.
You're saying that God's justice never changes and the best expression of justice is THE LAW. Much like our current society.
God wrote down several laws which EXPRESS HIS JUSTICE for a group of jews many of thousands years ago. You say that he was trying to condition jews etc but why didn't he explain that then? Why not just have legions of angels prevent barbarians from influencing the jews?
pulsexx 2 years ago
Why? Because he already has one creature as numerous as the stars who feel the heavy hand of his presence, they are the angels. God ha a purpose and a goal for mankind that places them ABOVE the angels. That Goal requires mankind to be free from all but the lightest touches to our free will. God had a covenant with them, an agreement which required trust and a willfulness to be in accord with Gods nature.
We cant grasp at divinity, which is an interesting concept that philosophy deals with.
havock89 2 years ago
He was really telling jews how to behave JUSTLY with one another or as how he behaves similarly (he did do all those things didn't he? he repayed evil etc)
Then you have an entirely NEW branch of teachings which now describes an entirely NEW form of justice which involves not paying back wrongs but entirely forgiving someone and infact loving them even if they are evil.
It's like One God would want you to kill someone who murdered your sister, and One God would want you to help them out. See?
pulsexx 2 years ago
This is a common mistake. Mankinds prime goal is to change his nature to be in accord with Gods nature. OUT of that change comes naturally social development and morality, not the other way around.
I can finally get where you are coming from on this, but I am genuine when I say you are mistaken. It is a perspective that may be logical to you, but is not accurate. You are missing a large chuck of the pie here.
havock89 2 years ago
What are you even talking about?
God is telling people how to behave justly and then his view of justice changes.
pulsexx 2 years ago
No you are still wrong, you havent understood what I have said at all. Read my comments again.
If you are not capable of keeping up with the conversation. Dont worry about it.
havock89 2 years ago
You are saying God has a nature which is just, and that God asks human beings to change to match his nature.
How convenient for you that God never clearly states his sense of justice then?
Oh wait he did, he expressed it through laws and behavior which changed throughout the bible.
pulsexx 2 years ago
You are dictating to God how he chooses to do waht he does? Outstanding lol!
IF barbaric humans are pushed too hard, they will revolt in their entirity and Christ Jesus would have never been born. God brought people along a path of refinement, just as parents do with their children. Expecting a child to behave, in full as an adult would be as impossible as what you are advocating.
God did not change his commandments, not even once. You dont have a leg to stand on sparky. lol
havock89 2 years ago
He's God. He could have sent Jesus down on a purple boat powered by flying unicorns.
He could have used angels to govern his laws instead of jewish officials so he wouldn't have to worry about barbaric influence.
It's not about changing commandments it's about a just nature changing.
Uhh he did change his commandments, in one chapter he says "thou shalt not erect an idol in likeness to heaven" and then he has Moses erect two statues of golden cherubim.
Oh yeah, you're God doesn't exist.
pulsexx 2 years ago
So your entire argument is based on these "what if" scenarios extrapolated to absurd proportions?
Lastly, you do not get to dictate what christianity teaches. YOUR fantasy interpretation is just that, a fantasy. All of mainstream christianity is laughing at you.
havock89 2 years ago
Mainstream Christianity is a group of modern people that don't understand the implications of neurobiology and still haven't realized they have been deceived by primitive jews.
My argument is based on the ilogical and contradictory nature of your "god."
You say he acts like a fool because "jews can't handle the truth" and I see no reason to believe why he couldn't be honest besides your irrational reasoning.
Besides, your entire belief system is based on the assumption "what if?"
pulsexx 2 years ago
I do not say he acts like a fool. You do, and that is derogatory.
Many christians are scientists and neurologists so you are wrong there too,
Your assertion that we have been decieved by jews is an assuption you are going to have to back up or drop.
Overall you come across as a hateful and prejudiced person. A poster child for modern day humanists. I am glad I do not know you.
Conversation over I think.
havock89 2 years ago
What's more likely?
There is a omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God who wrote a poor "holy book" and then decided to hide from humanity...
or the jews wrote a holy scripture like many other cultures and a lot of people were deceived.
also, I like how you avoid the problem of your God having no evidence whatsoever besides inconsistent scripture.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Also you are pulling at strings instead of using logic.
God tells people contradictory rules because "they can't handle the truth."
Sure.
pulsexx 2 years ago
Good glad we agree finally. :)
I have enjoyed this joke of yours.
havock89 2 years ago
You failed pulsexx by trying to argue - because you are being inconsistent. If you're a materialist you do not believe in thought... you can only have conditioned cascading chemical reactions.
Reason and rationality belong to those with a psyche (Greek for soul). Materialists don't have souls, they only have firing synapses.
You can't deny mind and then try to persuade.
You can mock other ideas (weak).
Sadly, I can't reason with you because in your view you're behavior is conditioned.
reformationboy 2 years ago
Why are you being so presumptious?
Who ever said that because I believe that consciousness is a materially dependent thing that there is no thought?
Are you an idiot?
We can't even define consciousness properly, but it very apparently is produced by chemical reactions. I would say it that human consciousness is far from pre-determined because it has the capability to understand it's conditions and transcend those factors.
If I say you're going to walk through a door, you could walk out a window
pulsexx 2 years ago
Is being presumptuous BAD?
Your argument is: "Pulsexx's chemical reactions are better than havock89's chemical reactions."
You don't get angry at baking soda for reacting with vinegar. But you hurl insults at people for having different chemical reactions than you?
Sounds like you have a standard of right and wrong behavior and right and wrong thinking.
Where did you get that standard from?
I don't find your ideas the least bit persuasive, but MY POINT here is that NEITHER DO YOU.