Response to Stevesincali - Buddhism, Pantheism

[Voitcu]

Buddhism is highly scientific, not religion nor (least of all) philosophy. Read all Rampa novels, and "the Quantum and the Lotus" (to name a few). As for orgiastic rites, it's no coincidence it was a Global phenomenon for the vast majority of what we consider human existence, nor that they were often associated with (and even involved) gods, another Global Consensus. This had to do (in most parts) with Kundalini. You also seem oblivious of Astral Travel, Reincarnation and seem to ignore ESP.

[ownzjo0]

also, id hit it till it was enlightened

[nickharvey7]

Nice video! With Pantheism the more we can understand our Universe the more we can understand God. I have always felt there is something greater than myself maybe this is Pantheism. Our Universe must be infinite to create such beauty! Infinity is a funny thing you can halve it and you still have infinity, so there is a kind of oneness like nothingness it must also be beautiful!

[Astrologon]

...and time really only happens NOW, "past" and "future" are mostly just projections, apparently alarmingly uncertainly unformed even on the objective, natural level (quantum mechanics seem to suggest that way). Plus NOTHING can ever be physicaly unmade from existence, only transformed. Which all kind of suggests that one way or the other, you will be there to experience the future, because it is just an extension of the here and now which you already firmly occupy and can't be unmade from.

[Astrologon]

Hm, just a little thing about the dread of death and experience of "emptiness" while we're at it, so to speak - experience is something that happens only to a conscious, living being. Which means that while dead, no experience of it at all is the most likely candidate. Just like during sleep. The interesting thing is that sleep has a tendency to end by new awakening, rebooted consciousness. As long as there is time, every end has to transform into a new beginning because nothing is eternal.

[miselaineeous]

I honestly don't know a damned thing about Buddhism or Pantheism and not sure why this video gets so many comments! It's not my area at all. I have almost stopped reading comments here because frankly, I won't have much else to say. It might be worth watching for the pantheist poem at the end.. yes, I'm quite amused by that.

[nayanmalig]

@miselaineeous buddhism has "kalama sutta" which says not to believe in anything unless it satisfies your own reasoning & I'll be damned if any other religion offers such an escape route.

[marianxtreme]

@miselaineeous FUCK BUDDHA WHO WAS A SHIT

FUCK ALL BUDDHISM BELIEVERS

WHO THE FUCK IN 21 CENTURY BELIEVE IN BUDDHISM ??? THE ANSWER IS STUPID PEOPLE(DIE IN HELL ALL BUDDHISM FANS ....)

[ownzjo0]

@marianxtreme lol kids so mad. got caps lock cruise controlled, check, initiate rage, check

[TheUndertakerSaysRIP]

@marianxtreme your comment shows that you are ignorant bigot.... Buddhism is not belief... it's practise... You can't simply born into Buddhism like you do in Christianity or Islam.... Buddhism spirituality .... not blind acceptance of made-up notions....

[ron43140]

people choose to find religion cause we have feeling of self worth and conscience about our own deaths. buddhism doesnt find life as a destraction. Monks charish every living thing and dont inflict harm to anything without meaning. also pantheists dont have policy on how someone should live their life thats all in how you was raised to say that pantheists are generally nymphos is ignorent. they dont believe in nature they embrace nature cause in some form they comeback something else natural

[PeaceOfTruth]

I like this video, but something on Buddhism I like to correct. What Buddhism means life is illusory is not to block out nature. Buddhism harmonized with nature and the cosmic very well. Buddhist illusion means that things we are attached to like greeds, hatred and discrimination toward something or our prejudice mind. Meditation is to understand our true nature which was formed by the universe through natural universal force and materials so we can be one with it, buddhist said there is no two

[niinja2]

im sorry you might think im a freak but all the time your tralking my brain just goes: god she is so pretty.

[utubb100]

meditation is a state of mine , energy can be any form , you are an energy in a form of a body then you pass away into a spirit .

[mysticresistence]

1) Buddhist do have a soul, it is called "the atman"

2) Zen buddhist practice Mindlfulness meditation, which is existing and being in the moment and not the mind, as opposed to a dissociative trance.

3) Buddhist do not see life as an illusion, but simply impermanent.

4) The religions that do value a spiritual world above an illusionary material one are not buddhism, but Gnosticism and Hinduism

5)Pantheism exist in many religions, like the Taoist Tao and the Brahman in Hinduism.

[PeaceOfTruth]

@mysticresistence Actually Buddhism believes in anatman, or anatta which mean there is no eternal soul or soul at all. It is more of a mind consciousness

[Holoverse]

Im a natural pantheist, but also believe in the "spirit/supernatural" element of nature as well.

But only because I went camping alone....for 2-3 days. With a bag of shrooms.

lol

Even though many would say mushrooms bring delusions which obviously arent real. Sometimes its hard to tell, because theyll tell you things you couldnt possibly have known, etc.

Indigenous tribes find different uses for plants by talking to them, through altered states.

After experiencing it myself, theres no doubt

[TaterGumfries]

Tater agrees. He don't want to be settin there with a bunch of pantheists havin them some orgasms.

On the other hand, Tater don't fear death. Leastwise not at the moment. We'll see how he feels about it when that flamin NASCAR engine comes a hurtlin right at him.

[rajsakya009]

No, dear! Buddha's teachings are not to explain cosmology or outer nature but to expalin suffering and to provide remedies of suffering. Yes, cosmology and others came in context of various discourses.

[TheElefaunt]

pantheist have a belief in balanced/un-balanced

rather then Good/Evil,

most pantheist our pantheist in search

for the examples of a balanced life in nature,but don't condemn an un-balanced cause it is only the emotion that is changed not nature itself.

[socialnoocrat]

i don't think buddhists see reality as a disgusting or illusory distraction. i think it's our perception of reality that is twisted because we see it through our illusion of self. and i don't think you are pantheist because you wouldn't be afraid of death

[TheRandomKill]

Hey! Miselaineeous. Fuck you mean you going to be frozen in liquid nitrogen?! Explain! Please! A.S.A.P!

[miselaineeous]

@TheRandomKill - check out Alcor dot org. :)

[Enzo012]

Are you sure that was Pantheism and not Satanism? The two two are fairly similar only one worships the universe as God and the other worships the self as God.

[funkster22657]

panthiest here hey its nice to see a lady that can think,i got seven sisters that cant for fear.i still pray and iam still scared sometimeits alot better than being athiest .aint life a bitch.

[brbubba]

Don't know where the Pantheist orgy perspective is coming from. I've been a Classical Pantheist for a few years now and have never heard of a Pantheist sexual lust, ha ha. Not that I would ever ascribe to that type of a thing.

[miselaineeous]

hey, I just found that poem during my 5 minutes of research on pantheism. I can't believe this totally-uninformed video has gotten so much attention. I really don't know or care much about pantheism! Someone had just told me I was a pantheist, so I figured I should look into it. :)

[pukeachu]

Could you by the same token also marry a man with a background in one of the Bible based faiths who was nonetheless open to a cosmic more expansive than that which could be encompassed in any one faith?

[TheElefaunt]

exactly i get that "orgy" perspective from christians,

don't know why.

finding the balance is a key idea

in pantheism,

things like moderation are one of the most common

lessons that we can learn from nature.

[nusphere]

Soooo, if I become a buddhist....

[miselaineeous]

@nusphere -- haha. What are you now?

[nusphere]

er... you tell me what you are first then I'll show you mine... oop's, I mean I'll tell you what I am. Or something like that! ;)

Hmm, seriously though why do we have to BE anything? Living's enough in itself without having to define ourselves acchording to a predefined set of idea's, is it not?

[miselaineeous]

@nusphere -- LOL. I didn't say we had to BE anything. You're the one who was joking about becoming a Buddhist. I'm nothing.. I say "atheist" but that is a nothing term.. it just means, "no god", and isn't claiming to be anything specific. It's like saying "I'm a non male". Well, you'd assume I'm a female in that case, but hopefully you get my point.

[SexedUpAtheist]

I believe that homo sapiens are polygamous by nature... it is religion that has suppressed this natural urge and supplanted it with an artificial requirement for monogamy.

[miselaineeous]

I don't have time for more than one man.

[SexedUpAtheist]

Yeah, you would have to dedicate at least one hour to me... and that would just be the sex. ;)

[MCTMD1]

I know you know this, but for those that don't, you do not want to be frozen, you want to be cryogenically preserved! Freezing destroys cells.

[miselaineeous]

LOL. Yes of course. I wouldn't be spending all this money to be preserved if I were not studied up on the process.

But even Alcor folks lovingly refer to us as "freeze pops". :)

[SexedUpAtheist]

Eh? How much does it cost to be cryogenically preserved? What sort of oversight is set up to insure that these people aren't simply tossing your bodies into a landfill and keeping your money?

[MCTMD1]

Pantheists are simply mistaken about the attitude to take towards nature. They know what it is, but still feel a need to worship it. Nature is beautiful, yes, but that is our subjective thought, not an aspect of objective reality.

Why add the theist to it at all. I don't know how anyone would say, 'yeah, I'm definitely a pantheist!' It seems more a word that theists like to use to excuse, misrepresent or explain atheists.

[SuperTrooper107]

I am an Panentheist for me I am this because I have always been conflisted with the mind because it cannot physically exist, yes the brain exist but the mind is different. I mean who has ever seen a mind?

The other reason I came to this is because I do think the mind exist and it itself is the supernatural. From the mind we create language I can call a dog a dog, pero, or a hund it is still the same thing. Words have no physical meaning or impact. The mind can also go back in time, while ...

[SuperTrooper107]

the physical world moves forward. Our thoughts of good and bad do not exist in the physical there merely is. So the mind is complicated n itself. I have come to this by studying many Cultures and Parmenides and Hume my two favorite philosophers who were total opposites

For me it is not spiritual as so much as it has to do with our ideas, nonmaterial culture, and the mind.

[impermanentoo]

According to the Buddha, hell does exist. Hell is meant for the evil and wicked. It does not mean when one believes in a religion, one will not go to hell, that;'s a lie.

Only if we practise good, be kind to all beings, then only we will not go to hell.

[awin123]

Thanks for sharing your views, I am an Atheist as well and I believe that atheism gets thrown around a lot with few people having a true understanding of what it means to them. I get asked a lot if I am not afraid of going to hell for example and my response is that it's silly to be afraid of something that doesn't exist, and that should I be wrong about god or hell for example, I am willing to face that punishment. As for when you die, you are dead and that's that, so live life to the fullest.

[linseypiee]

Hey sorry to reply so late, but I have also heard that it isn't safe nor healthy to be an Athiest. It's good to have faith. Pardon me if I offend you, that is not my intension what so ever! But I am pretty uneducated on this stuff and I am very very curious to learn about it. So what do you suppose happens after death?

[miselaineeous]

Hi linseypiee! At first I chuckled when you said you heard it isn't "safe", because I couldn't imagine what you meant. But then I realized you were referring to the fear of going to hell. To an Atheist, believing in things like heaven & hell seems as silly as believing in goblins or that Elvis lives, or that witches need to be burned at the stake. It's clear to me that our self awareness is just a very focused system (our body/brain) and when we die, it simply doesn't exist if the system decays.

[KevinSolway]

Unfortunately, while Buddhism isn't *supposed* to be dogmatic, in the real world it is just about as dogmatic as any other religion. If you criticize a Buddhist teacher then Buddhists can get very angry with you, and likewise if you don't believe in literal rebirth (eg, being reborn as an animal, or in literal hell-realms, etc)

[matreyia]

Come now Kevin, you really should qualify your claims with "some" before you go on accusing the whole of Buddhist followers or any other religion.

Because it is my personal experience that there were much more who didn't give a flip whether anyone criticized their teacher or religion and there were much fewer who got angry.

Which leads me to conclude that it must be the case that your experience was the opposite, but not that to agree with your accusation against (all) Buddhists get angry.

[CultofAlexander]

buddhism believes souls, duh. Ever heard of Reincarnation. Maybe you misspoke.

[miselaineeous]

Some Buddhists do believe in souls, some don't - Theravada Buddhists don't, for instance. As far as I've heard and read, many believe there is no unalterable independent existing thing that is separate from the body, as well as no god separate from the universe itself.

I'm no expert though. I'm an atheist. This was just a video reply. I'm surprised it got any attention at all. People should pay more attention to the videos where I actually know what I'm talking about.

[matreyia]

As for you Alexander, read up on subjects before you comment so confidently. It will prevent you from looking...uh clueless. (sorry if that choice of words offends you).

[linseypiee]

this was interesting, I feel so lost in religion and I have nothing to belive in and it kind of makes me sad. What religion do you perfer or belive in most, I need to find serenity and nirvana..

[miselaineeous]

I'm an atheist, meaning no god. I have no idea what god IS. No one has ever defined god, so one may as well believe in pixie dust or ghosts.

What gives me inner peace and a zest for life is the Great Mystery of the universe. We are curious beings searching for ultimate truth.

You have to find this light within yourself though, and I know it's hard for people with a background in religion. Your higher power is both YOU and EVERYTHING. It's an amazingly peaceful feeling once you grasp it.

[dmguitarist99]

This is my first time watching one of your videos, you're very entertaining =)

[miselaineeous]

haha. Thank you!! I hope you will watch more. :)

[dmguitarist99]

definately =), what's crazy is you said you've had a musical project since '91...

which must be absolutely bogus because you can't be a day over 25.

[miselaineeous]

hahaha. Well, sorta. I'm actually 40 going on 25. I mean, I FEEL 25, but like I've lived two or 3 lives already. lol. It's weird.

Now you have to watch my longevity videos! ;)

[gunnewolfe]

in short, meditation is to wake up. as your friend and buddhist monk, check with me first. love to you.  noel

[miselaineeous]

Noel! I love you! Thank you so much for the explanation. My mind must be clingy. I will keep all of this in mind and try again, when I can find some quiet time. :)

[gunnewolfe]

continued...

also the purpose of meditation is in no way to block out physical reality or any phenomena in any way. meditation first calms the mind and allows it to rest naturally in its own awareness and secondly - more importantly uses that workable mind to examine itself and any phenomena that arises within it, the purpose to realize the transient and "illusory" nature of mind and all phenomena.

[gunnewolfe]

hi elaine - buddhism doesn't assert that physical reality is a distraction or repugnant in anyway. it is how the mind relates to any reality that is the issue, whether it is seemingly part of the inner world or the outer world. it is the clinging mind that is the problem.

[PanDeism]

How about Pandeism (are you familiar with Pandeism?)

[Vonii27]

im a pantheist yet i also am a

Year of the Snake Libra

so according to my zodiac im naturally sexually repressed i don't like to share my intimate feelings too much... :/

it skeezes me :p

[miselaineeous]

No zodiac talk allowed on here... LOL

[gerontodon]

I believe in rebirth and I think the reason why it's not a good idea to jack this life in and start again, is that you go back to square one. Also, I think it shows that you don't realise it's just a game if you do that. I can't control how much I realise that, or when I'll have had enough, except by playing it more whole-heartedly, not clinging. There is plenty of urgency built into the game so a better understanding of it would help me play it better - not worse.

[american]

why do you say that?? " so what is the point of living if you will have other life" , you don't need reasons to live it, the reason is all around us, nature!, love!, growth!, success, need for more knowledge, that's my reason!, and if i die, i will not disappear 100%. your consciousness, what is you needs to go somewhere, and we are reborn!, is very hard for me to think that i don't exist after i die, just imagine that. is impossible! and for me is hopeless!

[american]

no no!!! listing is impossible, energy can't be destroy nor created!! our consciousness lifes for ever!, I had become very spiritual, and i also starting to believe that reincarnation is true!

[american]

the body is the hardware ( the computer, machine)

the soul/consciousness is the sofwtare ( ex. windows vista)

it will work like that for eternity, you will desagree with me and i don't care, i have seen already to much evidence and i'm pretty clear in what i beleive, and i also have a lot of knowledge.

[miselaineeous]

God surely would not approve of you comparing a soul to a poorly written monstrosity like Vista. LOL

Seriously, SOFTWARE IS NOT AN AGENT OUTSIDE OF OUR PHYSICAL REALM. It is temporarily encoded information on some sort of physical medium that is transfered via voltage levels that causes things to happen according to its current programming and outside input.

DNA/genes/neuron-encoding may be the "software", whereas our senses are the "input", and our chemicals/electrical-impulses do the work.

[american]

do you think tha when you die thats it?? very depressing so then why live? , well im not a christian or relegiuos person but i beleive that there is like a spiritual world, or reincarnation atlteast..

[playgrrrr]

i dont see whats so sad about a life without an afterlife. isnt it rather a good thing? that way you have to get the most of your life, instead of throwing it away for the sorry excuse of "that life doesnt matter anyways since the real thing starts after i die".

[american]

i didn't say that the real thing starts after i die!!, and i also disagree with you when you say that is good to have this life an thats it!! boring!!!, abosululty not my way of thinking.. my spirit is for adventure, i will rather kill yself now then just live this life all the way until it ends and thats it! noo way jose, the universe doesn't work like that. energy cannot be destroyed or created, only changed! soul/spirit/consciousness what ever you call > it is energy!

[princessannikki]

if there is no afterlife, then that is all the more reason to live your life, to cherish every day, because life is a gift you will never have again, it is only on loan to you from mother nature. if you believe in an afterlife, then whats the point in living this life, you might as well die and get on with your next life!

[miselaineeous]

princessannikki - I agree. Also, it's not easy for a lot of people to live their lives enthusiastically for the following generations, knowing there is no reward after death. It helps to have a certain pride in being human, or rather, a self love - both as an individual, and a love of being human. Compared to our potential, we are still babies, making all kinds of horrible mistakes, yet at the same time we are peering into the depths of the cosmos and reflecting back on ourselves. It's amazing.

[princessannikki]

yes i think there's a lot more appreciation for life if we realise our time is short, and so we should value life more. the enthusiasm for life should just be in the simple pleasures of love and beauty. why should we need an afterlife punishment/reward to make us do good, when we can just be kind to each other out of the goodness of our hearts. what is the goal of life, to enjoy it and know we are a part of nature, when our consciousness ends, nature continues. live in the now.

[paradirob]

For a long time there was nothing on the shelves in the philosophy section of most book stores other than New Age Religion. There was the burgeoning of fundamentalism with Jerry Falwell, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr, right to life. Muslims were encouraged to fight the Russians because they, at least, believed in God. Later, the same group turned against us.

Yes, we will colonize other planets. No, we will not become extinct before that happens. If there is no God, there is no Pantheistic God.

[miselaineeous]

paradirob - It's good to see some enthusiasm around here, regarding getting into space before we become extinct. I do believe that too - especially now that we have private companies building rockets, and programs like the Haughton-Mars Project. Yay for space!

[katwoman11]

how's it gonna end? Were going to poison ourselves to death through greed for money making and utter lack of respect for the earth which should be our number one priority. People are to stupid to accept that not having clean air, water and untouched natural areas are more important then material goods. Or - war, likely over resources or - as we have seen plenty of - fucking organized religion.

[miselaineeous]

katwoman11 - That reminds me.. I need to do a video about human space travel, because we will need to learn to do the most ultimate recycling in order to survive space travel, and/or life on another planet. I'm around a lot of space researchers, and it seems that everything they learn is directly applicable to green technology. And I do hope you've enjoyed my atheist videos too. :)

[coach10brown]

why are we so involved in our classifications?

[miselaineeous]

Are you kidding? I'm an atheist, which means "not a believer in theism" in other words.. it means NOTHING.. other than that. It's almost like a a NON-classification. lol. I'm just talking about different classifications here, like pantheism and buddhism, because I'm responding to someone who said I was a Pantheist and it's interesting discussion.

[coach10brown]

i apologize if this comment was taken to be condescendingly using "we" to mean "you" as a pedant would use "one" to mean "i".

I was sincerly asking why we, as humans, are so interested in classifying ourselves. Re-read your answer to me. You ask me if i am kinding and then classify yourself as a non-classifiable. i myself straddle many classifications, but i still find people finding new ways of trying to classify me.

also, not a believer in theism doesn't mean... nothing, does it?

[miselaineeous]

Unless I'm remembering wrong, and I don't feel like re-watching it.. but I think I say in this video that perhaps I CAN be classified as a scientific pantheist. I've been scolded since then about saying that, but I did say that, no? I certainly never said I was non-classifiable.

I also didn't say that Atheism means NOTHING. I said it means nothing beyond "not a believer in theism". So it doesn't mean NOTHING, but it means a lot less than most people think.

[coach10brown]

the non-classifiable statement was taken from your first response to my comment, not the video, and even in your comment you never outright say that you are non-classifiable, as such i apologize for misinterpreting your words. As for the NOTHING statement, i think it was your punctuation that drew me off. i apologize.

however, my original comment was not meant as an attack on you.

it is an honest question as to why do humans find it so necessary to classify everything?are we just mentally lazy

[miselaineeous]

Gotcha. :) Yeah, I meant respond to your first apology, but I think I got distracted when I was typing. lol. As far as I can tell, classifying is partly how our brains work. Without categories we could not possibly computer everything. I see a "face" and I know that means this object i see is in the "human" category. I hear a sound and it goes into the "audio" category. Categorizing is natural. We just have to be careful when openly categorizing others. People are touch about that nowadays. ;)

[5avan10]

If pantheists are having orgies, I've never been invited to one. :-( Seriously though, sex is not a part of pantheism except for the fact that it is an integral part of the human experience. It is no more important then sleep, or birth, or breathing, or eating, or thinking, or even death. It's an integral part of us, and we are an integral part of the cosmos, thus is is divine. Whomever wrote the snippets that you read was apparently rather fond of that part of the cosmos.

[alkmie]

I Define pantheism as a simple math equation

simply as the sum of all atomic particals. is this immeasurable sum conscience? probably not (but its immeasurable so I can't defend that as an absolut); yet all systems have a sum. this is what makes algebra and troubleshooting possible!

[TLM80209]

Hey Elaine,

I'd like to comment on one element of this video. I believe I've been a Pantheist all my life, although I have only recently discovered the word. And, the one aspect of Pantheism that I have trouble with is that which you mentioned. It doesn't seem to recognize that which is not yet, and may never be known. The nice part about Pantheism however, is that it is accepting of the individualization of each persons variations of the basic concept. Terry

[miselaineeous]

Can someone please EXPLAIN EXISTENTIALISM to me? I took a whole class in it in college and still don't know what the hell it means.

Yet, so many people tell me I'm an existentialist.

help..

[stevesincali]

Wish I could help with that, but I know exactly what you mean. I've read fscking Kafka and Camus and I still don't know.

Is it supposed to be encapsulated by that Camus line, "the benevolent indifference of the universe"? To me existentialism refers to neurosis, resignation and despair - the furthest things away from what you are.

I think it's basically a garbage philosophy with garbage champions; a pose.

[miselaineeous]

I wonder why the heck people tell me I'm an existentialist.. my roommate squee tells me that all the time and he LIVES with me. hmm.. I'll ask him.

[stevesincali]

Dunno. As a roommate are you constantly giving squee the feeling you're wallowing in a sense of, "dread, boredom, alienation, the absurd, freedom, commitment, and nothingness"? If so, he may have a point!

I think you're a "fundamentalist scientific Pantheist". By this I mean that you cannot tolerate the merest hint of mysticism mixing with your rational yet ecstatic philosophy.

[miselaineeous]

lol. definitely none of the 1st paragraph. ;)

Not sure I'd want to be a "fundamentalist" anything.. and if I call my self a pantheist, people will associate me with the new-agey thing, no? Do you know of any actual INTELLIGENT website about "fundamentalist scientific pantheism"? It would be an interesting read if nothing else.

[stevesincali]

"Fundamentalist" has very negative connotations, but I just coined that phrase! Unlikley to be such a site until you write one! ;)

It's precisely those new-agey aspects that you can't tolerate, but are you asking me if there is anything more to Pantheism than that? I think so, but I lost interest in Pantheism because it's essentially saying nothing much at all. By accepting everything, it can embrace nothing. The moment it moves beyond acceptance and joy it collapses into mysticism.

[sssswwwsssss]

Hi, the most concise formulation of existentialism would turn platonism/essentiaism on its head; so instead of positing classes or truths as really existing in the world, existentialism asserts, 'Existence over essence' i.e. the arbitary over the neccesary. Now if there's no neccesary truths, then a certain nothingness of being becomes an everyday human concern. Satre says we either

(1) run from the spectre of this nothingness, and live in Bad Faith, involving ourselves in the mundane;

[sssswwwsssss]

Or, (2) We enact our freedom to create our own role in this life, for there is no transcendent realm to which we must yield.

This may be of interest: 'Consciousness and Its Place in Nature: Does Physicalism Entail Panpsychism?' by Galen Strawson.

[Jokerice]

I think morals are different from philosophy, they're two different categories in belief.

I think your beliefs are very interesting, i'm a pantheist existential buddhist myself. The future isn't meant to be understood, and the past is meant to be dwelled on, so to make progress towards a better future, we need to work in the present and appreciate things.

Saying that, you are very pretty.

[miselaineeous]

I agree. Making "morals" part of a philosophy makes no sense to me. "Morals" are a built-in mechanism we have as part of our survival skills. In general, to survive and to feel good as part of a society, one may tend toward a basic moral code that society has. I don't think of or discuss morals very often.. it's boring to think about - maybe because I had good parents?

A good philosophy might naturally/inadvertently steer someone in the direction of "morality" if it promotes zest for life, etc.

[miselaineeous]

hmm.. I posted this WAY earlier, but it didn't stick.

The more I read about pantheism, the more new-agey it seems.

"Pantheists believe in Divine Immanence. To the Pantheist, divinity does not transcend reality. It surrounds, and is within. All share divinity. This leads the pantheist to personal ethics of tolerance and understanding."

eww..

[CousinoMacul]

"Sex of Pantheism?" Hmm, I hadn't given pantheism too much thought before, but now ...

;-P

[thinkeatingmachine]

LOL sects/sex same thing.

[burnvictim77]

What "Buddhism" are you talking about here - that doesn't endorse a "soul" and is not dogmatic? This is certainly not the variety practiced by Easterners.

Many Westerners have mistaken it for a philosophy... and certainly a philosophy can be distilled from their BS. But the same can be said for Christianity.

[burnvictim77]

Pantheism is also totally BS. Because it mistakes the need for calling the universe something other than the universe. In short, to me spirituality is nonsense... completely. I don't get it.

[burnvictim77]

And here we reconnect: Anyone who warmly embraces the notion of ceasing to exist is either 1) not able to grasp the concept of ceasing to be conscious or 2) a person with such disturbance in life that they may as well kill themselves presently.

[TheSockWithNoName]

...or 3) someone who sees no reason to freak out about something which is inevitable.

You are a very narrow-minded individual. As it seems, you think anything your limited mind doesn't get MUST fit in either of whatever small amount of explanations you can provide for it.

[miselaineeous]

burnvictim is opinionated (not narrow-minded), but he is one of those people who is.. well.. never wrong. After you think about it for a while, he always makes sense.

The only disagreements we've had are matter-of-opinion-things regarding use of language.

Speaking of which..

Alright, damnit, burnvictim.. I'll use "conditioning" instead of "brainwashing". And yeah, I suppose one can be "conditioned" to be a mathematician or an assassin. It's a more generic word with less emotion attached.

[burnvictim77]

Conditioned. Agreed. Pert Plus 2-in-1.

[miselaineeous]

that shit dries my hair out.

[pirex31]

Mind control or brainwashing is ok with me.

Suppress certain areas of the brain without the use of a scalpel, by rewarding those who use the conscious to delve in fantasies rather than critical thinking.

[miselaineeous]

Ya... as usual, you're absolutely right. I think I kinda randomly read some "different" pantheistic websites that were in the fringes, or written by people with a different notion of what pantheism is. Upon reading more and having my trusty roomie Squee straighten me out, I decided to throw that one out.

hmm.. my zen buddhist friend here and my tibetan buddhist monk friend who resides in upstate NY both explained it to me that way. But they could very well be "different" that most.

[burnvictim77]

Zen Buddhism is actually one of the few branches which used military might to spread itself. And Tibetan Buddhism (I'm assuming your friend is an American derivative and not a native Tibetan, correct me if I'm mistaken) actually has quite an ugly history, involving something very much like a caste system, complete with slaves and an absolute religious ruler. These are actually the two most dogmatic versions.

[miselaineeous]

Eek.. i had no idea. He's an American, yes.. I'll ask him to explain the history of his branch of Buddhism and his monastery, and I'll get back to ya with what he has to say.

We actually have a band interview comin up on the radio. He and another girl and I were in a an electronic industrial band in the early 90s in Boston and some radio station is interviewing bands from that long-lost scene. Should be interesting! I'll ask him stuff off the air. ;)

[burnvictim77]

"I'll ask him stuff off the air. ;)"

Let me know how that goes! Have you seen the Bullshit episode about Mother Teresa, Gandhi and the Dalai Lama?

[TheSockWithNoName]

Your "not getting it" doesn't make pantheism BS.

So, it "mistakes the need for calling the universe something other than the universe"..? What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

"Nature", "reality", "existence", are all alternative names for "universe", and, last time I checked, "god" was an undefined term, so you might as well define it as "universe".

I don't see what's your point. You seem to be rationalizing your personal dislike for this particular idea. Very irrational of you.

[burnvictim77]

"So, it 'mistakes the need for calling the universe something other than the universe'..? What the hell is that even supposed to mean?"

Exactly what it says. The universe is not God. The universe is the universe.

[burnvictim77]

"'Nature', 'reality', 'existence'... alternative names for 'universe', ...'god' was an undefined term, so you might as well define it as 'universe.'"

These terms are hardly synonyms, though there is some overlap.

[burnvictim77]

However, if we want to define God as universe, we would come up with statements like:

"The Sun, with all the planets revolving around it, and depending on it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as though it had nothing else in the God to do."

"There is only one corner of the God you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."

"The creator of the God works in mysterious ways. But he uses a base ten counting system and likes round numbers."

[burnvictim77]

Making the terms the same leads to all kinds of language problems. For instance, if we are debating the existence of God and you define God as the universe, all you have to do is get me to admit that the universe exists. This proves your point - but does it actually answer the question? Of course not. I'm still an atheist whether I believe in the universe or not.

[burnvictim77]

The natural universe also lacks intention and desire. However, if we say that it is God, we are certainly implying that the universe does have intentions.

Questions like - Did God create the universe? - become meaningless.

Need I continue?

[miselaineeous]

Cute. But plenty of people use the universe as an analogy to God, or even think that the universe IS God, and have never come up with statements like that. :P

I don't know about pantheists, but the only reason I EVER use "god" as a (bad) analogy to the universe is when I'm drawing loose parallels to certain religions, either when talking to a religious person about my ideas, or talking ABOUT comparing science/religion to an audience on youtube, etc. And it's only as a bridge to the REAL ideas.

[burnvictim77]

Yeah, I guess in the sense of drawing analogies it can be useful. I find that many times it useful to describe the universe as an apartment complex that won't allow Mexicans to reside in it, and then radical whites come along and protest, but the whole thing gets out of hand and the complex burns to the ground. Of course, most Mexicans were unaware of the prohibition in the first place since it costs so much to live in the place. They were busy having a fiesta. And no whites were invited.

[miselaineeous]

LOL :P

[miselaineeous]

Yes, the universe is the universe. Strangely enough, for many people, the universe doesn't have enough charisma and grandeur and danger and mystery to inspire them. So sometimes I make a loose analogy using their own language - "God" - to get them to make that connection.

Yes, I have more patience with people than you appear to (am I wrong?), and actually try to reach out and help them let go of the nonsense.

[burnvictim77]

Patience? I'm actually one of the most diplomatic mother fuckers on this YouTube. Notice that in this very discussion thread TheSockWithNoName has blatantly attacked me for expressing my point of view. My reaction is to explain, in as many ways as possible, why I find my original position to be tenable.

While I understand the utility of using the word God to appeal to the average listener, you must realize that it is an appeal to irrationality, and brings with it a plethora of connotations.

[miselaineeous]

ya.. I can see how you're diplomatic. Youtube is your arena and you've probably reached out to as many, or more, people on here than I have in real life.. but you would never have the patience to humor them by using their own irrational language to reel them in. That's not a BAD thing! I do make it clear though that I'm using "God" as a "loose analogy" and that once they are comfortable in the new paradigm they should let go of that idea.

[burnvictim77]

Agreement. All around. I just find it personally to be distasteful to use a lure, so to speak. But I'd put that in the realm of aesthetics, not ethics.

[miselaineeous]

I was readin stuff like this...

Do you find it impossible to believe in supernatural beings, and difficult to conceive of anything more worthy of reverence than the beauty of nature or the power of the universe? Are you speechless with awe when you look up at the sky on a clear moonless night and see the Milky Way strewn with stars? Are you uplifted by the energy and creativity of existence? If you answered yes to these questions, then you will feel at home in the World Pantheist Movement.

[burnvictim77]

"Do you find it impossible to believe in supernatural beings... then you will feel at home in the World Pantheist Movement."

I just don't see what the purpose of the movement could possibly be. It's all fine and good to be be amazed sometimes, but why organize?

[miselaineeous]

If the world wasn't overridden with people who still believed in witch burning - excuse me - I mean, God, I don't think it ever would have occurred to me to organize. Organizing as atheists (or agnostics, or christian friends who come as guests, etc.) and talking about the grandeur and mysteries of the universe on the largest and smallest scales, expressing how we don't FEAR the unknown and label it but that it drives us in our quest to live and learn, is a way of reaching out and helping folks.

[burnvictim77]

Just seems to me that tagging -theism on the end is a little counterproductive, is all.

And it seems sort of like the atheists support groups we were talking about earlier. To me, mind you. I'm only saying I don't get it and I will never label myself as a pantheist, no matter how much I love the Universe and invite him into my heart to be my personal savior.

[miselaineeous]

are you referring to pan-theism or a-theism?

as far as a-theism goes, it's obviously just a term to use when relating to religious people.. or to piss off religious people, or make them uncomfortable, or "look, I'm an ATHEIST (scary sounding word) and I'm a nice person", or whathaveyou.

When not in the presence of religious folks, they might call themselves objectivists or rationalists, or something gay sounding like brights. :P

I guess pan-THEISTS really do believe the universe is a God.

[burnvictim77]

But here's the part a pantheist also must ignore: God is also Hitler and the Holocaust, God is Stalin and his 20 million death toll, God is the mount St. Helen's eruption, God is the cancer that kills a 2-year-old girl. The universe is full of all kinds of things - some of which are repugnant to the human mind. Pretending they aren't "nature" and therefore not "god" doesn't seem rational.

[SpiritualAtheist]

There's nothing sexier than watching a beautiful woman think on camera.

[miselaineeous]

*blush*