@fistfulofknowledge True but unlike Nazism and Fascism and many other isms, Zionism is not intended to hurt anyone. It is intended to right an historical wrong and give the Jews back their one country to end a cycle of 2000 years of oppression. This video deals with Zionism from a religious point of view and the Bible says that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-requisite for world peace. You may or may not agree but Christians, Muslims and Jews believe the Bible is the word of God.
@voncello Fascism didn't intend to harm people. Its intent was to help the nordic race for the perceived wrongs done to it. They still commited evil however, even if it wasn't their first intention (deportion was sought before genocide as I'm sure you already know) So although Zionism may not intend to directly harm the many palestinians, it still has/does. I don't think the fact that millions of people believing something makes it true. sanity isn't statistical.
@fistfulofknowledge Fascism - " a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". Compare to Isaiah's vision: "they shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain". Judaism proposes a world of free nations living in peace and cooperation with each other.
@voncello Yet Isaiah didn’t invent the Zionist movement. Zionism didn’t exist until the 19th century, and many of the Zionists believed themselves racially superior. Indeed in Germany many welcomed the idea of segregation as they didn’t wish to mix with the ‘unclean’ Aryans. Israel has used forcible repression against opposition, not only the Islamist resistance, but people who simple want a home not in a gheto. Sound similar somewhat?
@fistfulofknowledge What sources do you have for these ideas? My video proves that Zionism began 1000 years before Isaiah in the Torah! Did you hear the quotes of God giving Israel to the Jews forever? There is no Jewish doctrine of racial superiority. In fact, Jews are not a race. There are black, white, red and yellow Jews. The Jews didn't welcome the ghettos. This sounds like Nazi propaganda. And Arabs in Israel are not ghettoized but live all over the country. They are full citizens.
@voncello The idea that God gave Israel to the Jews is a fallacy. A debate about the existence of God would take too long, however I seriously doubt that God would choose any certain people . I agree that the Jews aren't a race, however zionism presents them as such. Stating that the Jews are Gods chosen people is a racist notion, as it shows them as being a superior race. Nor did the Jews welcome ghettos, just like the Palestinians didn't welcome their removal to gaza and the west bank
@fistfulofknowledge Zionism doesn't present the Jews a race. The Jews are a people, a nation, not unlike your nation of England. Are the English racists because they have their own country and prefer it to stay English? And saying the Jews were chosen has nothing to do with claims of superiority. In fact the Torah says they were not chosen because they were better. They were chosen due to Abraham's devotion to God. His children were chosen to represent God and teach His word it to mankind.
@voncello Zionism as it’s a form of nationalism, calls for the needs of a certain national race, the Jewish ‘race‘. Also I’m not English, and yes I think many English people have became racist as a by product of trying to maintain English culture (most notably the BNP) In theology Abraham was the father of the Jews, and as people then generally had a belief in inheritance reflecting a persons character, it is saying that by being loyal to Yahweh unquestionably, they are thus chosen, superior.
@fistfulofknowledge Nations are not races. Anthropologists used to believe there were 3 races: caucaziod, mongoloid and negroid. This theory is discredited as science has shown we all have common ancestors. Jews are a nation just like English, French, Arab. Jews for the most part are decendents of Abraham but there have been converts. Bible says Abraham was the 1st person in history to truly love God and God reciprocated but this in no way implies superiority. We all can love God if we choose.
@voncello Nations are founded on races, or at least a perception of a race. Any nationalist will say that, regardless if their wrong. Also to say that the Jews are descended from Abraham suggest they do in fact perceive themselves as a race. And the fact that it is said that Abraham was the first person to truly love ‘God’ and was also the founder of Judaism shows that there is supremacist feeling. When borders were made they were shaped by which tribe took which.
@fistfulofknowledge You are confusing nationality with race. Race is a discredited notion that people of different complexions are races, black, white, yellow. Ethnic groups are like extended families. Families tend to have a special closeness that strangers don't have. People love their children and their grandchildren. This is not a supremicist thing, but basic human nature. I am glad there are different cultures and nations. A one world culture would stifle creativity and indiviuality.
@voncello Nations are always predominantly made up of one race. Almost all nationalism calls on a form of race to be better and to be roud. You don't have to neccesarily belong to this race to be this nationality, but you are otherwise normaly seen as 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th generartion.
@fistfulofknowledge You are confusing race with ethnicity. Every person is unique but you can usually tell the difference between an English & an Italian. Asians may look the same to you but a Chinaman knows a Japanese. I don't know how these groups first formed but over time groups of people with common ancestry become nations. You seem to want an idealistic world where we are all of one country, but that has never happened and I don't see any evidence it would be better nor that it's possible.
@voncello It seems Zionists want a world where they can live in a utopian Judea in the biblical sense, where they can inhabit a land promised to them thousands of years ago in a largely mythical book. This would be fine except that people were already living there, and expecting them to get up and leave happily is more idealistic than any of a one world govt.
@fistfulofknowledge There are more secular Zionists than religious. They don't want a utopian anything. They want a place where a tiny nation can finally live in peace after 2000 years of hellish persecution. There were 65000 Jews in Palestine in 1948, a substantial minority. Many countries are ruled by the minority such as Jordan with its Arabian dynasty. Why do I never hear complaints about that? Those Arabs who stayed in Israel and were peaceful are still there living better than most Arabs.
@voncello Zionism is founded on a religion and religious texts stating that the Jews should have Israel. If it was secular why would it want the land of Palestine in particular, or indeed Jerusalem, the 'holy city'? Some would argue because it was their home, however no person is still alive to remember this home, as it hasn't been for almost 2000 years before the diaspora.
@fistfulofknowledge You know the original political Zionists wanted a Jewish state in Uganda or Argentina. In fact they were totally secular and even hostile to the religious Jews. Most Orthodox opposed the creation of the state of Israel. Some still oppose it (though very few). No one wanted to give the Jews land! So it was only natural that they asserted their rights to their traditional homeland where they had a kingdom for 1500 years. Jerusalem has never been an Arab capitol but only Jewish.
@voncello If it was secular and Zionism didn't wish to expand then why are Jews all over the world invited to come and stay in Isreal free of charge in largely Palestinian neighbourhoods? Doesn't sound very secular nor anti-expansionist to me. Also dwelling on centuries old acts is a dangerous and banal thing. Being Scottish I could blame the present day English for their ancestors crimes, but I don't.
@fistfulofknowledge Being Scottish your people didn't suffer genocide in the lifespan of people who are still alive. The British didn't evict you from your land and you didn't have to wander for millennia suffering unspeakable humiliations, persecutions and murders. If you had a history like that it would be very easy for you to realize that your people need to return to Scotland and regain your right to defend yourself. This makes perfect sense from a totally secular viewpoint.
@fistfulofknowledge "Jews tended to congregate in particular areas of a town or city. That was a matter of choice. The Nazis eliminated that choice. Dilapidated housing, appalling sanitary conditions, inadequate and poor quality food, absence of medical supplies and facilities was the lot of the ghetto dweller. And most of those ghetto dwellers also shared a common end. They died of starvation, disease and exhaustion within the ghetto, or at shooting pits and death camps outside of it."
@voncello Also although the Jews have suffered horrendous crimes trying to follow the rhetoric of a centuries old idea won't change that, only exacerbate the problem. By seeking to take over the entire land the victim has became the oppressor. I think the wrongs of history must be prevented from happening again, but doing what the state of Israel and the zionists are currently doing isn't helping.
@fistfulofknowledge Have you been to Israel? I met Palestinians there who love Israel. They told me that their children have better education and health care than they would have in any Arab country. Those Palestinians who oppose Israel are overwhelmingly of an Islamic ideology that says that any land that was ever Arab must remain Arab. Just look at the conversation I had previous to yours. The Arab guy finally admitted this. Their belief doesn't end in Israel but extends to the whole world.
@voncello I agree with you, many Palestinians and indeed Muslims of the world like to play the ‘western imperialist’ card, while being just that. I’m not defending the Islamist side, they're imperialistic and repressive. At the same time though there are an overwhelming number of Zionists who want all of Israel to themselves, with the Palestinians out and possibly a theocracy, a land of Jews themselves. Neither side seems very attractive, both making the error of mixing religion and politics.
@fistfulofknowledge Again where are your sources that the "overwhelming number of Zionists want Israel to themselves"? This is patently false. Yet in reality many countries seek to maintain their character. Look at the tensions in Europe over Muslim immigration. The Muslims don't want to accept European ways and the Euros are starting to feel they must protect their own cultures. Judaism calls for a world of diverse nations all living in peace. Islam calls for conversion or murder of all others.
@voncello Zionism wants a Jewish state, not a secular one. If it was secular then Israel in particular wouldn't be the place chosen. They chose there because of relgion. In a theocracy only one relgion is tolerated, therby showing that zionists would want all of Israel to the Jews, with no or few minorities. You're right on islam, however provided secularism is enforced Islam's numbers will drop in the west. Also every religion calls for conversion, otherwise it would never have picked up.
@fistfulofknowledge There are secular Zionists & religious Zionists. Most Israelis, in fact, don't want a religious state. That's why Israel is a secular state. And it is not true that "every religion calls for conversion". Yes, Islam and Christianity do, but Judaism does not! Read the Bible and you'll see that biblical law applies only to the Jews. What Judaism says about the other nations is that they should "beat their swords into plowshares" and not "learn war anymore". Just be good people!
@voncello Yet even the idea of a secular Israel is founded on the belief on a homeland for a religious group, deriving from Jewish tradition and theology. As you said it is the one Jewish country. If it was a secular country it wouldn’t be the land of the Jews, but instead a country neutral on religion. I agree though that the Jewish faith has had a lesser cry on converting foreign peoples, perhaps again showing that many Jews, Zionists in particular, try to portray the Jews as a race.
@fistfulofknowledge Judaism is passed down by birth like Englishism or Arabism. One need not "believe" in Judaism to be a Jew. I believe the English, French and Arab all deserve a country. The Arab has around 30 countries. If the Jews don't deseve even one then the Arabs should certainly give up all of theirs. First you attacked Jews for converting people. When I explained the they don't you attack them for not converting people. This is not being objective. Why not live and let live?
@voncello People should live and let live, but the forcible removal of Palestinians isn’t living and let live. To say that one is still a Jew regardless if they believe in Judaism is a fallacy. How can someone be Jewish without believing it can only be backed up by the lie that the Jews are a race as shown by your assertion that ‘Judaism is passed down‘, otherwise how can they be a Jew?
@fistfulofknowledge The Palestinians left by choice. The surrounding Arab nations told them to leave so they could quickly massacre the Jews and then they would get their homes back. They took the gamble hoping for a genocide and they lost the gamble. Those Arabs who stayed in Israel are still there. Of course you don't have to believe in Judaism to be a Jew. I have many Jewish friends who are atheists but they are still proud of their Jewish heritage and the great contributions of Jews today.
@voncello Somewhere around 50-80% of them left by choice, however only after the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Deir Yassin massacre, not out of voluntary cooperation or happiness but instead out of terror. Those who left were then prevented from returning home or claiming property. Also if Jews are not a race how can someone who does not believe in Judaism be Jewish? That's like me saying I'm Christian even though only my family were and despite the fact I don't believe in it.
@fistfulofknowledge Deir Yassin was unaurthoruzed and was tiny compared to the massacres the Arabs did to the Jews in the 1920's. Those Arabs who fled had much less to fear from the Jews than the Jews did from the Arabs. They wanted to get out of the way so their brothers could commit genocide on the Jews. The Grand Mufti was a close ally of Hitler's and asked him to kill all the Jews of Palestine before 1948. Why would the Jews let back those who left for such a reason? No country would.
@voncello I doubt such a number could organise and leave Israel on the motive of allowing the Arabs to move in. It would be bureaucratically impossible to convince and organise 80% of the people to leave their homeland on the basis of allowing the Jews to be slaughtered. Most, if not almost all left out of fear, not some grand Islamic attack. Even an anti-Islamist like myself wouldn’t accuse them of that.
@fistfulofknowledge I believe your facts are not correct. The surrounding Arab armies flooded the Palestinains with propaganda about how they were going to come in and decimate the Jews. They warned them to leave or be killed. Under such conditions it is totally understandable why the majority of them left. This happened recently in parts of Libya. People will flee before invading armies. Those Arab countries attacked a sovereign Israel voted into life by the UN. They created the refuge crises.
@voncello They excarcerbated the crisis, however they never created it alone. Israel, along with the western powers who helped created it, have a responsability in the refugee crisis. Had it not been for the western powers promising the Jews an already occupied land and the zionists wishing to return there due to an ancient book and then
@fistfulofknowledge Why do you not show similar outrage at the fact that the United Nations allowed an Arabian king to take control of Jordan? Isn't it the same situation of the "western powers promising (the Hasmonian family) an already occupied land"? In fact it is a much worse situation since Israel is a democracy that has Arab MPs while Jordan is a dictatorship ruled by a dynasty of kings selected by birth! What would you say if the Jews turned Israel into a dictatorship? Why the hypocracy?
@voncello Again your presumptions are completly wrong. I by far have more hatred for the various islamic regimes than I do for Isreal. If this was true then I would be defending these regimes. I cannot fathom my hatred enough for islamism or monarchy. This is why I see Isreal as the lesser evil, however the lesser evil is still an evil. The anti-semites have a much greater part in the crisis of Palestine then the zionists, however the zionists have still played a part.
@fistfulofknowledge Israel is no more an "evil" than is Scotland. Every people should have the right to self determination and self rule. In the case of the Palestinians, this is a false construct. There was never a country called Palestine. It was a region in the Ottoman Empire. The Arabs of that area were the same as the Arabs of nearby lands like TransJordan and Lebanon. In fact, Jordan is a majority Palestinian country right now. So why don't we hear calls for THAT to be a Palestinian state?
@fistfulofknowledge I also have many Chrsitian friends who don't believe in Jesus or God. One friend said he believes in Santa Claus but not Jesus. He loves the holidays and the values of giving but he doesn't buy the rising from the dead and the virgin birth. But he still considers himself a Chrsitian. From the way you are talking I assume you are a Muslim because only Islam has a doctrine that those who do not believe in the faith should be killed. Jews believe in free thought.Live & let live.
@voncello You presumed completely wrong. I’m nowhere near Islamic, considering I hold pretty much the opposite ideals of them. Personally I’d rather be Jewish than Muslim, though that doesn’t say much. Also say where I said that anyone who doesn’t have faith should be killed. Considering I’m a non-religious and a free thinker, I think being a Muslim would be pretty hard. Also just because someone has a belief in Christian culture doesn’t necessarily make them a true Christian.
@fistful What is a "true" Christian? Do you have to go to church every sunday? Do you have to take communion? Must you take a vow of poverty? Or do you just have to say "I believe in Jesus"?
You'd rather be Jewish probably because it is much less restrictive. Women can dress as they please and come and go without permission. No call to Jihad or a death penalty for adultery or leaving the faith. Jews don't want to be ruled by Muslims for similar reasons, hence the need for a Jewish state.
@voncello A true Christian would be one who is of adult age, goes to church regularly and believes in the religion. Anyone else isn't really a true Christian, maybye a partial or apathetic Christian. Judaism is more open than Islam, however even Judaism has its fair share of flaws and extremist sects. In the present day I think the Jews should hve a right to remain in Israel, however only if they allow the Palestinians to have some of the land for their own state, something zionism prevents.
@fistfulof Judaism has tiny groups of extremists but overall it is a very open minded religion. Jews are actually taught to question. The whole process of learning the Bible is the student asking questions and trying to stump the teacher. Jews say they learn together rather than study. Reason being that the teacher learns as much as the student! The Palestinians were offered a state by Clinton. Arafat turned it down. Their leaders really want to take over Israel. They keep trying to find a way.
@fistfulofknowledge You do make a good point that mixing Arab and Jewish cultures in one country is difficult. Then again, as we have seen in Europe mixing of Arab and most "Infidel" cultures is problematic. Is there a non-Muslim country that would tolerate an influx of Arabs to over 50% of pop.? Sharia law would follow:. women covered up, death penalty for adultery, 2nd class status for "Infidels". The Muslims have approx. 50 countries. The Jews have one! Israel is not the problem.
@voncello No country would tolerate an influx of 50% of any immigrants, Israel certainly wouldn't. You don't have to convince me of the horribleness of sharia law. And although Muslims have 50 countries their population is over 1 billion, whereas Jews are barely over 13 million. Israel is not the only problem would be a better saying. It has to adapt, cast out the ideas of expanding more and of creating a one relgion nation. Only then can it even begin to solve the other problems.
@fistfulofknowledge The United States is almost 100% immigrant! We have no problem accepting every kind of person except those who want to force us to convert to their beliefs. The concept of expanding and creating a one world religious nation is Islam. Judaism sees a world of many nations living in peace. Just as England and Jordan have a right to exist, so does Israel. The Palestinians were offered a country but turned it down. This situation could be easily solved if they truly wanted peace.
@voncello To say Americans don’t have a problem with excepting immigrants is extremely wrong. Hate crimes against blacks and Hispanics are high, and there are many restrictions against letting people in. Every person has the right to have a nationality, however it’s this urge to follow an ancient vision that is the problem. Also if an immigrant came up to you and said ‘This land is ours now, but you can move to another country’ do you think you would be happy and accepting of it?
@fistfulofknowledge American ARE immigrants. Blacks have been here longer than many whites so they aren't immigrants. If we all lhave the right to follow nationalities why would it matter ancient or modern? If America is around in 1000 years it will be just as valid to be American then as now.
My family was forced out of Poland and Russia. We accepted our fate and moved on. We are now Americans and would never go back. Many Arabs stayed in Israel and are doing very well and are happy.
@voncello Americans may be immigrants, but that doesn’t exclude them from hating other immigrants.I imagine your family wasn’t all to happy about leaving Poland and Russia. It was their home which they were then forced out of. No one’s happy to be removed from their home by force. What if native Americans decided that all the other people in the U.S. should leave because it is their original land. How many Americans would be happy to leave then, a place that was their home for centuries.
@fistfulofknowledge My great grandmother told me stories of how Jews were tortured, even dragged through the streets tied upside down to horse carraiges! She left alone at the age of 12 and came to America not knowing Enlish or a soul. That is how bad it was. But I am not going to fight with the Polish people to give me back my grandmother's house. It's over. We have moved on and we are better off now. In fact had she not left she would have died in the Holocaust. Live & let live & move on.
@voncello People have the right to move migrate to a country they choose. However when natives are persecuted that's a different matter. It wasn't justifiable for the Nazis to invade and annex Poland, persecuting the Polish people. That form of immigration is more forcible conquest than true migration. When Israel was created, on the basis of a much older notion than the 1919 removal of German land which became Poland, the same principal applied, albeit certainly not as brutal.
@fistfulofknowledge The area of Israel & Jordan was a territory in the Ottoman Empire. When they sided with Germany the allies broke up their empire. The British promised all of Transjordan to the Jews who already had a presence there. The Arabs negotiated 80% of it away before the UN vote that gave the Jews 20%. Everything would have been fine but the Arabs attacked the new country. They acted like Germany going into Poland. They attacked a sovereign country even though they already took 80%.
@voncello In the middle east there are few good forces. Both the Arabs and the Jews, when they moved into Jerusalem acted imperialistically. Both had imperialist notions. This wouldn’t be a problem if both sides were only harming each other, unfortunately they’re also harming innocents. You don’t seem to get it that I’m not defending the Arab countries or their motives, I’m saying even though only 20% of the land was took that was still the homeland of a vast multitude of people.
@fistfulofknowledge When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem Jews were banned from going to their holy sites! No Jew could approach the Wailing Wall! When Israel took over they not only allowed Arabs to approach the Temple Mount, they let them continue to rule it! Jews have also allowed Christians unfettered access to their holy sites. In many Arab countries there are no churches allowed. And where they do exist, as in Egypt, the Christians are persecuted. Recently churches were burned down there!
@fistfulofknowledge You say you are "converted about the attrocities and single mindedness of Islamic regimes". It this is true will you state that you understand why the Jews do not want to live under such a regime? And don't forget, for the Jews the European regimes were no better. In fact, in places like Germany and Poland it was decidedly worse for the Jews. For this reason there must be a Jewish country where Jews can rule themselves. The Muslims have 50 countries! They don't need another.
@voncello I meany convinced rather than converted. And yes, not only the Jews but any non-muslim person or secularist wouldn't wish to live under such regimes. And yes as I've said the anti-semites are as much responsible for the creation of Isreal as the zionists. They even done deals together, showing that both wanted a Jewish homeland for rather different reasons.
@fistfulofknowledge People slant the history due to their agendas. As this video demonstrates quite conclusively, the idea that Israel is the land of the Jews goes all the way back 3500 years to the Bible. It predicted that the Jews would lose Israel but get it back. Whatever agendas anyone had, the fact is that the prediction was fulfilled against all odds. And now Israel exists and has as much right to exist as Scotland or any other country. Peace would happen tomorrow if the Arabs wanted it.
In this video I prove beyond a doubt that the call for the Jews to rule themselves in the land of Israel comes originally from the Bible, directly from the mouth of the one the Bible refers to as God. And the prophets state that God's goal is for mankind to create a world of peace, which has as a prerequisite the Jews living in peace under self rule in their homeland, Israel. Many who comment here seek to insult Israel and lay blame on the Jews but they are missing the point of the video.
are you saying the fate of 6,000,000,000 people depend on the Jews and isreal? common man, isreal should stop killing women and children for a debatable idealogy. jews are not special... theyre just like all other humans
the bible also said that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and a lot of other thing that are proven to be wrong. the fact is most people people in the world don't believe in christ (including a lot of jews), so what the bible mentions thousands of years ago should not be used in world politics and to draw borders. your argument for isreal depends on the idea that Jews are special and privilege people... this is of course not true- all human beings are equal.
@hakami89 The Bible does not say the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. If you think it does show me where. Of course Jews don't believe in Jesus. That is from the New Testament not the original Bible.
If you think the Bible should not be used in world politics or borders then should the Koran also not be used?
And if all human beings are equal why do Muslims insist we must all convert to their beliefs and follow their laws? Will you repudiate Islam and the Koran?
@hakami89 I know of Galileo and bringing him up doesn't answer my question. I countered your assertion that the Bible says the world is flat and the sun revolves around it. I asked you to show me where in the Bible it says that. You have not.
You say you repudiate "all religions" when it comes to politics. So do you repudiate the following Muslim concepts:
1. Muslims should expand their territory
2. lands that were once under Muslim control must return to it
@hakami89 Psalm 93:1 "The world also is established that it cannot be moved." doesn't mean the sun revolves around the earth. Other translations say, "the world is established, firm and secure".
Pslam 104 same concept. A human cannot move the earth no matter how hard he jumps or pushes. It is secure and will not suddenly spin out of control.
Isaiah 40 "He stretches out the heavens like a canopy" doesn't mean the earth is flat.
All you have done is portrayed your false interpretations as fact.
@voncello im sure theres is a lot of interpretation. the only fact i stated is that these verses where intrepreted by the catholic church, in galileos time at least, as the earth is flat and its the center of the universe. which reaffirms my point about the danger of mixing religion and politics. now please take the effort to just answer my questions.
@hakami89 I disagree. What this shows is the danger of non-Jews who have not studied the Jewish tradition that was passed down with the Bible making up new interpretations without knowledge. The problem is not with the Bible but with the ignorant Church fathers of Galileo's time who made up false interpretations that were NEVER accepted by the Jews! And THIS is largely what my book is about. Moving Beyond Faith means putting in the time to understand books from the author's point of view.
@voncello i agree with what you say about the interpretation of the church at that time and it danger, but i extend that to all political interpretation of religious text.
@hakami89 But neither Judaism or Islam separate church and state. This is a concept from the Christian world. Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is his". He said "the kingdom is in heaven". By using these concepts the Christian fathers were able to have Christianity become the official religion of Rome thereby increasing its power tremendously. Judaism disagrees. It says that "the kingdom" is on earth. We must make this world better and not allow the powerful to rule and commit evil.
@hakami89 As for your questions, you are trying to engage me in a political debate about Israel. But you don't want to debate things that Arabs are doing. For instance, look at the utter repression and mass murder going on in Syria right now! Do you want to talk about that? Probably not. You just want to say bad things about Israel. Your whole premise is off too. The settlements are not "illegal". And everyone knows that Israel has made peace. If the Palestinians wanted peace it would happen.
@voncello im willing to talk to you about any arab leader and i do agree that whats happening is a disgrace to all humans. i feel that way because im for equality and peace for all. i really dont appreciate the fact that you assumed my position on arab politics before even asking me. im trying to show your viewers that isreal have commited a lot of crimes against palestinians. im not saying that israel is the only one.
@hakami89 I don't believe Zionism says the Jews should have special privileges. The Jews are asking for nothing that the Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis, Pakistanis, Iranians.... on and on for over 30 Arab countries... don't already have. The Muslims have dozens of countries that they control, where they make their own laws and have their own armies to defend their people. The Jews never asked for 30 countries. They have asked for ONE country. I think this is more than fair.
@hakami89 Innocent children aren't dying as a result of Zionism. If you are going to say things like that you are going to lose me. When the United Nations voted to allow the Jews to rule 20% of TransJordan and allow the Muslims to rule 80% the Jews did not attack the Muslims to get the other 80%. It was the Muslims who attacked the Jews to take away their 20%. THAT is where the problem began. So if anyone is dying it is because the Arabs attacked Israel. The ones who have made peace have peace.
@hakami89 You said, "zionism says that the fate of all the people in the world depends on the safety of the jews". Zionism doesn't say that. THE BIBLE says that. "I will surely bless you...Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." The bible says ALL NATIONS ON EARTH will be blessed through the Jews. Your problem is with the Bible. Religious Zionists merely trust in God.
@hakami89 In the Bible God foretells the future of the Jews. He says that they will obtain the land of Israel but will be exiled twice. Then He will gather them "from the four corners of the earth" and bring them back to Zion. The prophets say that once this cycle is complete and the Jews have returned for a third and final timeTHEN the messianic era of peace can begin. Religious Zionism is the Jews believing in God's promise and acting on it to bring the world into balance and peace.
@hakami89 I agree not everyone believes in God, but Christians and Muslims do! And those are the groups, especially Muslims, who are fighting for control of Israel. My book asks, how can we make peace among the God believing community? It seems logical that we compare the Bible, New Testament and Koran. If God promises Israel to the Jews forever, then how can Muslims say it should belong to them? Through logical and rational discussion we can move "Beyond Faith" and determine what God wants.
@hakami89 Do you know why Arafat turned down the Oslo peace plan? According to Carter's negotiator, Dennis Ross, he turned it down because he insisted that the Muslims have ownership of the Temple Mount. The Jews agreed that they could have "de facto" ownership. They could use it as they have been but it would remain under Jewish ownership on paper. This is a purely religious issue and THIS was the issue that launched the intifada. So it is not me but the Palestinians who made it religious.
@hakami89 Actually this happened under Clintion. I can back it up. See the Frontline program "Shattered Dreams of Peace" on PBS. This is a quote from the transcript:
"On the last night of the talks, Clinton offers a new bridging proposal that covers all the issues, including the main stumbling block, East Jerusalem. But Arafat refuses any compromise over the Temple Mount."
There you have it, proof that Arafat made this a religious issue. Then he killed many Jews for his religion with relish.
@hakami89 Before Arafat was born there was no such thing as a Palestinian. Countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Jordan didn't exist. The people living there were all Ottomans, ruled by the Turks. Britain arbitrarily cut the empire into countries. If you have evidence to prove that a group identified as "Palestinians" were revolting against the Turks I would love to see it. If you do not have evidence then you will be shown to be the one "shallow with facts".
please take the time to read the history of the arabs before making such a stupid statement. dont reply until you actually know how arabs gt their independence from the ottomans
@hakami89 "The Arab Revolt (1916–1918) was initiated by the Sherif Hussein bin Ali with the aim of securing independence from the ruling Ottoman Turks and creating a single unified Arab state spanning from Aleppo in Syria to Aden in Yemen." Before you call me stupid why don't you stop acting stupid? Clearly the point of the revolt was to create "a single unified Arab state" NOT a separate Palestinian state. Your call for me to look into history only confirms no independent Palestinian movement.
plus by Palestinian i mean the people who have been living in that region, which was referred to as Palestine since the ancient Egyptians all the till the creation of israel in 1948, before there was no such thing as israel. this is fact, if you cant find the documents and agreement made between the Arabs and British then your not looking hard enough. here one example from many many examples: research 1920 Palestine riots. AND STOP LYING
@hakami89 The people living in what region? Where are the boundaries of this so called Palestine? Do they include only lands that Israel is currently on? Or don't they also include parts of Jordan and Lebanon? Are the people on the east bank of the Jordan really a different people from those on the west bank? I could ask the same about the people east or west of the Mississippi! Either side of the river they are all Americans! Now, stop using insults (i.e. liar) as this is a sing of desperation.
@hakami89 And please cut the anger! In your last posts you called me a liar and stupid. All you are doing is showing yourself to be a bully who wants to force me to accept your view. This is typical of a fundamentalist Koranic mentality: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216), "Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103). I do not want to be the object of your anger and your need to push your beliefs onto others. I seek solutions and a path to peace.
you are stupid because you dont face my points directly i gave you an example of people PALESTINE region revolting before arafat, which you seem to blame him, and not the zionist, for making it a religious issue. you said. How dare say that there was no such thing as Palestine before 1948. examples to prove my point: British Mandate for Palestine and Franco-British boundary agreement. all these mention Palestine. i'll say it again stop lying. Israel was created ON PLASTINIAN LAND!
@hakami89 People in the "Palestine region" revolted, but who were they and what did they want?
Are you saying that the revolt was made only by "Palestinians"?
And are you saying they revolted in order to create a state called Palestine?
And do you think by insulting me and using capital letters you are proving your point?
Has it occurred to you that you are only proving that you are trying to intimidate me and force me to accept your view? I am impressed by reason, not by insults and screams.
the fact is israel was created on our land! imagine person A allows person to stay at his house, person B starts calling all his friends over and the next morning, person B declares the house as his own, any attempt by person A to recover his is considered and act of aggression. this is inhumane and immoral. the Arabs thought that by helping the allies we will be able o be the masters of our own destiny, the British and french back stab the Arabs, read Sykes–Picot Agreement.
@hakami89 So are you finally admitting that you are an Arab? It seems by you saying "Israel was created on our land" you are a Palestinian. Will you finally admit that? And are you a Palestinian from the middle east, or did you grow up in America?
im not palestinian, im arab. i have never said that im not arab. do wanna turn this about me and you now? where you from? where do u live? what do these questions answer or have to do with what where talkingabout? im talking facts, counter my point, made very simply, and stop being so stupid!
@hakami89 You said, "Israel was created on our land", yet you say you are not a Palestinian. You just proved my point that the Palestinians are not a distinct people nor is Palestine a distinct land. They are Arabs just like you and you as an Arab see their land as your land too.
As for your constantly calling me "stupid" all you are doing is demonstrating that you do not know how to carry on a conversation in a civilized manner.
i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land, or our land since were arab, we fought the crusades, Mongolians, brithish, french, italians, the ottomons to free out lands.however Egypt belong to the egyptian, saudi arabia belong to the saudis, sudan belong to the Sudanese,and PALESTINE BELONGS TO THE PALESTINIANS, etc... i called you stupid because you asked stupid questions like wer im from and wer i live... jus focus on the argument and not me. im srry if i hurt your feeling
@hakami89 "i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land, or our land since were arab".
Who gives you that right?
The Arabs have 100 times more land than the Jews. Yet you don't want to give up an inch! Even though you know from your own religion that Israel was given by Allah to the Jews. "Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land. When the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you all together [in Israel]." Koran17:100-104
@voncello going back to religion ha? i dont believe in god, i thought we already establish this. non of what you just said means anything to me. talk facts for a change.
@hakami89 You don't believe in God? So are you willing to say you don't believe in Allah? And will you say that you don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet?
srry for lashing out i guess but please try to counter my point. i'll make it simple, the Palestinian revolt of 1920, British Mandate for Palestine,Franco-British boundary agreement, sykes- picot agreement. prove that the Palestinians (muslim, christian and jews) lived in that region before Israel was created by the allies turning the jews and muslims against each other, while we all know that all the religions existed in harmony for hundred of hundred of years before Israel was even created.
@hakami89 Please let me know if you are a Palestinian. You said "Israel was created on our land". By calling it "our land" you are saying that you are a Palestinian. You accused me of being a liar. Why won't you be honest about your background?
im not palestinian, im arab. i have never said that im not arab. do wanna turn this about me and you now? where you from? where do u live? what do these questions answer or have to do with what where talkingabout? im talking facts, counter my point, made very simply, and stop being so stupid!
@hakami89 And you are wrong about Zionism being bad for Palestinians. I actually went to Israel and met some Arabs who said they loved Israel. They said they had better healthcare and education for the kids than they'd have in any Arab country. I also met Arabs who hated Israel but your generalization is false and destructive. There is no good reason why the Palestinians can't make peace with Israel just as Egypt and Jordan did. It is the extremists, motivated by hate, who prevent peace.
@hakami89 And I know "dear friends and family members" who were killed by Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinians targeted children by blowing up school buses. They targeted families by blowing up a pizza parlor, restaurants, even a Passover Seder at a hotel! They smashed in the head of a child. If you want to compare atrocities the Palestinians lose big time. But what is the point? Do you want to use our time here to try to prove how evil the other side is? Or do you want to find a solution?
@hakami89 The number of atrocities is invalid. What matters is intent. When Palestinians blow up a school bus their intent is to kill children. If they could blow up 100 school buses they would. When Israel fights it is out of self defense. They, in fact, leaflet areas where they are planing to attack terrorists and alert the civilians so they can move out of harms way. But often the terrorists force them to stay as human shields. Then when they die they say "look how many people Israel killed!"
intent ha? what as the intent of haganah lehi and irgun for palestinians? werent they considered terrorist group? werent they very influential in the creation of israel? check the records even the records from israeli sources state that israel killed more people, not only that but the number off youth (people under 18) killed is way higher on the palestinian side. i can back this up if you want the sources. you still didnt answer my: will you admit that Israel and palestine are BOTH at fault?
@hakami89 The intent of those who fought for Israel was the return of the Jews to their homeland after 2000 years of persecution in countries not their own culminating in the Holocaust. While the Arabs were living safely in their own countries and were, in fact, conquering other countries, the Jews were being attacked in country after country. They were persecuted, they were robbed, raped, murdered, and exiled. Finally the U.N. gave them back a tiny part of their homeland and the Arabs attacked.
@hakami89 The intent of a Palestinian terrorist is to force the Jews out of Israel, or at least to force them to come under the rule of the terrorist's people. Many of the so called "Palestinians" are not even from Palestine. Do you know where Arafat came from? Egypt! How can an Egyptian be the "leader" of the "Palestinians"? It all goes back to what you yourself said, "i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land". This is an Islamic doctrine, yet you SAY you don't believe in God.
@hakami89 As for the claim that the Palestinians are the largest displaced population in the world, this is false. There are many larger displaced populations. And don't forget that just as many Jews were displaced out of Arab countries after 1948 as Palestinians. The difference is the Jews have accepted that they had to move on and they don't blow up school buses and hotels where they used to live. When the Jews were in the diaspora they were a much larger displaced population: 14 million!
difference is Israel offered a passport to any Jew in the world, even if they have never seen Israel. while they dont offer a passport to many palestinian families that lived in Palestine, or what use to be called Palestine plus who displaced the 14 million? i thought you said you were in exile by GOD!
@hakami89 You really should read the Bible! As a Muslim you are supposed to believe that Allah and God are one. God said:
“And it shall come to pass, when all these things shall come upon you, the
blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall bethink yourself
among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you ... the Lord your God will ...gather you from all the peoples where the Lord your God scattered you.” Deuteronomy
@hakami89 Even better proof: "Arafat admitted to President Clinton at Camp David that his faith forbade him from recognizing the existence of the Jewish Temple saying, ‘I am a religious man and will not allow it to be written of me that I have . . . confirmed the existence of the so-called temple underneath the mountain.”
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, August 12, 2000.
This was reported in an Arab paper! So, if you are honest, you MUST admit that Arafat made this a religious issue! And he killed for it!
@hakami89 So the question for you is, do you accept the words of the prophets? If not, that is fine. But it is hypocritical to say as a Muslim you accept the words of the prophets and then turn around and not accept the words of Isaiah because you don't like his message.
@voncello how do you know im muslim?! that's is the core of my argument.... for non muslims, what you just wrote doesnt make any sense to me. the world is not just muslims christians and jews. try to use logic to explain your argument for killing innocent civilians. isreal action destabilizing the whole region if not the whole world.
@hakami89 And as a Muslim aren't you saying that the fate of the world depends on Islam? If not, then why are Muslims engaging in Jihad? Why are they fighting all around the world to increase their territory? Why do they insist that any land that ever was Muslim must return to Muslim rule? Why do they convert others? Why do they force people to follow Sharia law? Why do they kill apostates? Why don't they just give up all this Muslim stuff already and act like everyone else?
Anti-Zionism exists primarly because of the internet. Most of these people that have abosrbed Anti-Zionist propaganda are reading web-pages made by people in the Middle East who are Ethno-centric towards the Arab Pan-Ethnicity, and have an extreme hatred towards the Jewish people.
@israelthreatingworld A reasonable dialogue means that each party is entitled to answers to their questions. I have asked you if you will address the apartheid in the Arab world. Will you address this? If not then I will end this conversation. This page is a place for dialogue, not a platform for you to push your one sided view.
@voncello Well what do I care if you block me? You approached me on the zionist topic but apparently you lack knowledge on the subject and would rather shift attention to something else, thats nothing new. I constantly see that method being used by zionists. Go ahead block me and practice my theory and we will see if I am right.
@israelthreatingworld I'm not falling for that. Everyone who will read this will see that I asked you to address the apartheid in the Arab world. I mentioned the FACT that Abbas said he wants a Palestine "empty" of Jews. I mentioned the FACT that Jews were persecuted in many Arab countries and fled to Israel after 1948. I mentioned the FACT that Mecca is off limits to EVERYONE who is not Muslim. We can all see that you are unwilling to address this but only attack Israel. Try again.
@voncello Again you approached ME on the topic of ZIONISM. When you got cornered you tried to shift attention. I would love to have another debate with the topics you brought up though.
@israelthreatingworld I didn't approach you. This is MY video! You posted on MY page. YOU brought up apartheid! So if apartheid is an issue, then let's not be biased and ONLY look at Israel. Let's also look at the Palestinians. You just said you would "love to have another debate" on Palestinian apartheid. So let's begin.
NOW will you address Palestinian apartheid? Or will you keep finding way after way to avoid this?
@israelthreatingworld You are right, you commented to someone else who was commenting to me. It seems to me that you are now using a tactic to avoid answering a difficult question, claiming there are 2 debates going on. IMO there is one debate which is about Zionism but there are two sides. It is unfair to paint Zionists as doing something horrible if the Palestinians are doing the same thing and doing it more extremely. Israel is 20% Arab Palestinian terr. is 0% Jewish. That's real apartheid.
@voncello Again like I said I would be happy to have a debate on other topics than zionism. Regarding zionism, when it was as strongest in the 70-80s it was also one of the staunchest supporter of the apartheid regime in South Africa, thats another threat zionism is posing because when the apartheid arrives inside israel, zionists wont care and will keep on. but hopefully the regime have imploded by that time.
@israelthreatingworld You obviously would not be happy debating Palestinian apartheid because you keep dodging the question. It is also obvious that you are dodging it because we all know that the Palestinians want a total apartheid Palestine without a single Jew. Yet you want to ignore that and keep attacking Israel which is 20% Arab. Now you are reaching back 40 years to find something else to attack Israel about. But you ignore Hamas and Hezbollah which the US labels terrorist organizations.
@hakami89 How many would Hamas kill if they had the power? The fact is that Israel would like to live in peace. Since Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel it hasn't killed any Egyptians or Jordanians. The same would be true if Hamas made peace with Israel. But Hamas has stated that it wants to destroy Israel. So until it decides that it wants peace war will continue and the fault will be on Hamas.
@hakami89 You asked me, "how do you know I'm a muslim?" It is now clear that you are. Aside from your name, which is a Muslim name, you are refusing to repudiate Islam and the Koran. A non-Muslim would have no problem repudiating these. So clearly you are a Muslim and you are looking for a fight. Please go elsewhere to have a fight. My video is about how the Bible says that world peace will come when the Jews live safely in Israel. And the Bible does indeed say that. Period.
@voncello not because i have an ARABIC name does that mean i have to subscribe to a muslim ideology. islam is a religion and not a state, country or tribe. please try to limit your ignorance. im not looking for a fight, these are word and im debating you to understand your views. please try to concentrate on the issue and not me
@hakami89 Islam is in fact a lot more than a "religion". Islam doesn't recognize a difference between religion and politics. That is why in Iran the Mullahs control the state. This is true in many Islamic countries. Islam does in fact call for the conquest of land and the forced institution of Sharia law. Look at the Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia, etc. for evidence of this. You can insult me by calling me ignorant but readers will see that I am quite knowledgable about Islam.
@voncello you still didn't answer my question, or maybe your trying to avoid the answer. how many people did the Palestine government(s) kill and how many did the Israel government kill. the answer to that suggest something different from what you said. in addition, you cant expect to occupy a land, displace its population, expand your illegal settlement, create water shortages, limit humanitarian aid to desperate people and expect the Palestinians not to fight back!
@voncello Well if you remember, the palestinians said jews could live in palestine pre-1947, so its nothing new. Problem is zionists refused to acknowledge that since the goal was a arab-free israel or close to, Ben Gurion put the ammounth to around 20% if I am not misstaken. Problem is though that the settlers dont want to move and dont want to live in a palestinian state.
@israelthreatingworld Too bad. If the agreement is to give those areas to the Palestinians then they will have to live there or move back to Israel. But you haven't produced one quote of a Palestinian leader who would agree to incorporating the Jews into Palestine. From everything I've seen they want Palestine to be 100% Judenrein making them much more into apartheid than Israel.
@voncello I dont have any quote in mind no, palestinians didnt want to divide but the jews could live with the palestinians which they de facto did until jews wanted their own state and thats whats drifting them to apartheid. And in the end a one-state solution.
@israelthreatingworld Here's a quote: "The claim that the Palestinians have abandoned their goal of “liberating” all of Palestine ignores what they themselves keep saying (though, admittedly, in Arabic). On May 28, Mahmud Abbas declared in Doha that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, that he will never give up on the “right of return,” and that the future Palestinian state will be “clean” (or “empty,” depending on the translation) of any Israeli presence (including civilians). "
@voncello if I could continue to my previous comment, its a rather dead-end position israel have put herself in. On the one hand refusing to acknowledge palestinian state, on the other hand, refusing a binational state for the both of people. But again, it will become a 1state solution because when the apartheid have arrived israel will become more isolated and hopefully sanctioned. I think the regime will implode by itself thouggh.
@israelthreatingworld You seem to be retreating from your claim that Palestinians would allow Jews to live in a Palestinian state. I sent you a quote from Abbas stating that a future Palestinian state will be "clean" or "empty" of Jews. Until you can produce a quote to the contrary it is clear that the real apartheid state is the Palestinian. Why don't you spend your efforts speaking to Palestinians about ending their very real apartheid?
@israelthreatingworld Did you read what Abbas said? He will not accept Israel, he will not end his demand to flood Israel with Arabs, and he wants a Palestine "empty" of Jews. So the reality is that he wants a one state of Palestine in Israel and then he wants the Jews to be kicked out. If you don't believe me, just read what he said!
@israelthreatingworld Right but Abbas, not to mention Hamas, would not only like to return the area to the way it was in 1947 but they would like to kick out all of the Jews, in much the same way as the Jews were kicked out of virtually every other Arab country after 1948. Around 800,000 Jews fled from persecution to Israel from Arab countries. And now Palestinian leaders would like to take over Israel and kick the Jews out of there too.
Isn't it also interesting that even though this video is about the biblical foundation for Zionism very few people comment on that. Rather they launch into attacks on Israel, Zionists, and Jews in general. This is an example of not letting the facts get in the way of one's beliefs. If there is ever to be peace in that region people need to understand that the history of what we are seeing th
Yes zionism is good, just like every political ideaolgy. Who it's good for is a different matter.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge True but unlike Nazism and Fascism and many other isms, Zionism is not intended to hurt anyone. It is intended to right an historical wrong and give the Jews back their one country to end a cycle of 2000 years of oppression. This video deals with Zionism from a religious point of view and the Bible says that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-requisite for world peace. You may or may not agree but Christians, Muslims and Jews believe the Bible is the word of God.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Fascism didn't intend to harm people. Its intent was to help the nordic race for the perceived wrongs done to it. They still commited evil however, even if it wasn't their first intention (deportion was sought before genocide as I'm sure you already know) So although Zionism may not intend to directly harm the many palestinians, it still has/does. I don't think the fact that millions of people believing something makes it true. sanity isn't statistical.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Fascism - " a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". Compare to Isaiah's vision: "they shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain". Judaism proposes a world of free nations living in peace and cooperation with each other.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Yet Isaiah didn’t invent the Zionist movement. Zionism didn’t exist until the 19th century, and many of the Zionists believed themselves racially superior. Indeed in Germany many welcomed the idea of segregation as they didn’t wish to mix with the ‘unclean’ Aryans. Israel has used forcible repression against opposition, not only the Islamist resistance, but people who simple want a home not in a gheto. Sound similar somewhat?
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge What sources do you have for these ideas? My video proves that Zionism began 1000 years before Isaiah in the Torah! Did you hear the quotes of God giving Israel to the Jews forever? There is no Jewish doctrine of racial superiority. In fact, Jews are not a race. There are black, white, red and yellow Jews. The Jews didn't welcome the ghettos. This sounds like Nazi propaganda. And Arabs in Israel are not ghettoized but live all over the country. They are full citizens.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello The idea that God gave Israel to the Jews is a fallacy. A debate about the existence of God would take too long, however I seriously doubt that God would choose any certain people . I agree that the Jews aren't a race, however zionism presents them as such. Stating that the Jews are Gods chosen people is a racist notion, as it shows them as being a superior race. Nor did the Jews welcome ghettos, just like the Palestinians didn't welcome their removal to gaza and the west bank
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Zionism doesn't present the Jews a race. The Jews are a people, a nation, not unlike your nation of England. Are the English racists because they have their own country and prefer it to stay English? And saying the Jews were chosen has nothing to do with claims of superiority. In fact the Torah says they were not chosen because they were better. They were chosen due to Abraham's devotion to God. His children were chosen to represent God and teach His word it to mankind.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Zionism as it’s a form of nationalism, calls for the needs of a certain national race, the Jewish ‘race‘. Also I’m not English, and yes I think many English people have became racist as a by product of trying to maintain English culture (most notably the BNP) In theology Abraham was the father of the Jews, and as people then generally had a belief in inheritance reflecting a persons character, it is saying that by being loyal to Yahweh unquestionably, they are thus chosen, superior.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Nations are not races. Anthropologists used to believe there were 3 races: caucaziod, mongoloid and negroid. This theory is discredited as science has shown we all have common ancestors. Jews are a nation just like English, French, Arab. Jews for the most part are decendents of Abraham but there have been converts. Bible says Abraham was the 1st person in history to truly love God and God reciprocated but this in no way implies superiority. We all can love God if we choose.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Nations are founded on races, or at least a perception of a race. Any nationalist will say that, regardless if their wrong. Also to say that the Jews are descended from Abraham suggest they do in fact perceive themselves as a race. And the fact that it is said that Abraham was the first person to truly love ‘God’ and was also the founder of Judaism shows that there is supremacist feeling. When borders were made they were shaped by which tribe took which.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge You are confusing nationality with race. Race is a discredited notion that people of different complexions are races, black, white, yellow. Ethnic groups are like extended families. Families tend to have a special closeness that strangers don't have. People love their children and their grandchildren. This is not a supremicist thing, but basic human nature. I am glad there are different cultures and nations. A one world culture would stifle creativity and indiviuality.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Nations are always predominantly made up of one race. Almost all nationalism calls on a form of race to be better and to be roud. You don't have to neccesarily belong to this race to be this nationality, but you are otherwise normaly seen as 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th generartion.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge You are confusing race with ethnicity. Every person is unique but you can usually tell the difference between an English & an Italian. Asians may look the same to you but a Chinaman knows a Japanese. I don't know how these groups first formed but over time groups of people with common ancestry become nations. You seem to want an idealistic world where we are all of one country, but that has never happened and I don't see any evidence it would be better nor that it's possible.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello It seems Zionists want a world where they can live in a utopian Judea in the biblical sense, where they can inhabit a land promised to them thousands of years ago in a largely mythical book. This would be fine except that people were already living there, and expecting them to get up and leave happily is more idealistic than any of a one world govt.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge There are more secular Zionists than religious. They don't want a utopian anything. They want a place where a tiny nation can finally live in peace after 2000 years of hellish persecution. There were 65000 Jews in Palestine in 1948, a substantial minority. Many countries are ruled by the minority such as Jordan with its Arabian dynasty. Why do I never hear complaints about that? Those Arabs who stayed in Israel and were peaceful are still there living better than most Arabs.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Zionism is founded on a religion and religious texts stating that the Jews should have Israel. If it was secular why would it want the land of Palestine in particular, or indeed Jerusalem, the 'holy city'? Some would argue because it was their home, however no person is still alive to remember this home, as it hasn't been for almost 2000 years before the diaspora.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge You know the original political Zionists wanted a Jewish state in Uganda or Argentina. In fact they were totally secular and even hostile to the religious Jews. Most Orthodox opposed the creation of the state of Israel. Some still oppose it (though very few). No one wanted to give the Jews land! So it was only natural that they asserted their rights to their traditional homeland where they had a kingdom for 1500 years. Jerusalem has never been an Arab capitol but only Jewish.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello If it was secular and Zionism didn't wish to expand then why are Jews all over the world invited to come and stay in Isreal free of charge in largely Palestinian neighbourhoods? Doesn't sound very secular nor anti-expansionist to me. Also dwelling on centuries old acts is a dangerous and banal thing. Being Scottish I could blame the present day English for their ancestors crimes, but I don't.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Being Scottish your people didn't suffer genocide in the lifespan of people who are still alive. The British didn't evict you from your land and you didn't have to wander for millennia suffering unspeakable humiliations, persecutions and murders. If you had a history like that it would be very easy for you to realize that your people need to return to Scotland and regain your right to defend yourself. This makes perfect sense from a totally secular viewpoint.
voncello 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge "Jews tended to congregate in particular areas of a town or city. That was a matter of choice. The Nazis eliminated that choice. Dilapidated housing, appalling sanitary conditions, inadequate and poor quality food, absence of medical supplies and facilities was the lot of the ghetto dweller. And most of those ghetto dwellers also shared a common end. They died of starvation, disease and exhaustion within the ghetto, or at shooting pits and death camps outside of it."
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Also although the Jews have suffered horrendous crimes trying to follow the rhetoric of a centuries old idea won't change that, only exacerbate the problem. By seeking to take over the entire land the victim has became the oppressor. I think the wrongs of history must be prevented from happening again, but doing what the state of Israel and the zionists are currently doing isn't helping.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Have you been to Israel? I met Palestinians there who love Israel. They told me that their children have better education and health care than they would have in any Arab country. Those Palestinians who oppose Israel are overwhelmingly of an Islamic ideology that says that any land that was ever Arab must remain Arab. Just look at the conversation I had previous to yours. The Arab guy finally admitted this. Their belief doesn't end in Israel but extends to the whole world.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello I agree with you, many Palestinians and indeed Muslims of the world like to play the ‘western imperialist’ card, while being just that. I’m not defending the Islamist side, they're imperialistic and repressive. At the same time though there are an overwhelming number of Zionists who want all of Israel to themselves, with the Palestinians out and possibly a theocracy, a land of Jews themselves. Neither side seems very attractive, both making the error of mixing religion and politics.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Again where are your sources that the "overwhelming number of Zionists want Israel to themselves"? This is patently false. Yet in reality many countries seek to maintain their character. Look at the tensions in Europe over Muslim immigration. The Muslims don't want to accept European ways and the Euros are starting to feel they must protect their own cultures. Judaism calls for a world of diverse nations all living in peace. Islam calls for conversion or murder of all others.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Zionism wants a Jewish state, not a secular one. If it was secular then Israel in particular wouldn't be the place chosen. They chose there because of relgion. In a theocracy only one relgion is tolerated, therby showing that zionists would want all of Israel to the Jews, with no or few minorities. You're right on islam, however provided secularism is enforced Islam's numbers will drop in the west. Also every religion calls for conversion, otherwise it would never have picked up.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge There are secular Zionists & religious Zionists. Most Israelis, in fact, don't want a religious state. That's why Israel is a secular state. And it is not true that "every religion calls for conversion". Yes, Islam and Christianity do, but Judaism does not! Read the Bible and you'll see that biblical law applies only to the Jews. What Judaism says about the other nations is that they should "beat their swords into plowshares" and not "learn war anymore". Just be good people!
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Yet even the idea of a secular Israel is founded on the belief on a homeland for a religious group, deriving from Jewish tradition and theology. As you said it is the one Jewish country. If it was a secular country it wouldn’t be the land of the Jews, but instead a country neutral on religion. I agree though that the Jewish faith has had a lesser cry on converting foreign peoples, perhaps again showing that many Jews, Zionists in particular, try to portray the Jews as a race.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Judaism is passed down by birth like Englishism or Arabism. One need not "believe" in Judaism to be a Jew. I believe the English, French and Arab all deserve a country. The Arab has around 30 countries. If the Jews don't deseve even one then the Arabs should certainly give up all of theirs. First you attacked Jews for converting people. When I explained the they don't you attack them for not converting people. This is not being objective. Why not live and let live?
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello People should live and let live, but the forcible removal of Palestinians isn’t living and let live. To say that one is still a Jew regardless if they believe in Judaism is a fallacy. How can someone be Jewish without believing it can only be backed up by the lie that the Jews are a race as shown by your assertion that ‘Judaism is passed down‘, otherwise how can they be a Jew?
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge The Palestinians left by choice. The surrounding Arab nations told them to leave so they could quickly massacre the Jews and then they would get their homes back. They took the gamble hoping for a genocide and they lost the gamble. Those Arabs who stayed in Israel are still there. Of course you don't have to believe in Judaism to be a Jew. I have many Jewish friends who are atheists but they are still proud of their Jewish heritage and the great contributions of Jews today.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Somewhere around 50-80% of them left by choice, however only after the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Deir Yassin massacre, not out of voluntary cooperation or happiness but instead out of terror. Those who left were then prevented from returning home or claiming property. Also if Jews are not a race how can someone who does not believe in Judaism be Jewish? That's like me saying I'm Christian even though only my family were and despite the fact I don't believe in it.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Deir Yassin was unaurthoruzed and was tiny compared to the massacres the Arabs did to the Jews in the 1920's. Those Arabs who fled had much less to fear from the Jews than the Jews did from the Arabs. They wanted to get out of the way so their brothers could commit genocide on the Jews. The Grand Mufti was a close ally of Hitler's and asked him to kill all the Jews of Palestine before 1948. Why would the Jews let back those who left for such a reason? No country would.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello I doubt such a number could organise and leave Israel on the motive of allowing the Arabs to move in. It would be bureaucratically impossible to convince and organise 80% of the people to leave their homeland on the basis of allowing the Jews to be slaughtered. Most, if not almost all left out of fear, not some grand Islamic attack. Even an anti-Islamist like myself wouldn’t accuse them of that.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge I believe your facts are not correct. The surrounding Arab armies flooded the Palestinains with propaganda about how they were going to come in and decimate the Jews. They warned them to leave or be killed. Under such conditions it is totally understandable why the majority of them left. This happened recently in parts of Libya. People will flee before invading armies. Those Arab countries attacked a sovereign Israel voted into life by the UN. They created the refuge crises.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello They excarcerbated the crisis, however they never created it alone. Israel, along with the western powers who helped created it, have a responsability in the refugee crisis. Had it not been for the western powers promising the Jews an already occupied land and the zionists wishing to return there due to an ancient book and then
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Why do you not show similar outrage at the fact that the United Nations allowed an Arabian king to take control of Jordan? Isn't it the same situation of the "western powers promising (the Hasmonian family) an already occupied land"? In fact it is a much worse situation since Israel is a democracy that has Arab MPs while Jordan is a dictatorship ruled by a dynasty of kings selected by birth! What would you say if the Jews turned Israel into a dictatorship? Why the hypocracy?
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Again your presumptions are completly wrong. I by far have more hatred for the various islamic regimes than I do for Isreal. If this was true then I would be defending these regimes. I cannot fathom my hatred enough for islamism or monarchy. This is why I see Isreal as the lesser evil, however the lesser evil is still an evil. The anti-semites have a much greater part in the crisis of Palestine then the zionists, however the zionists have still played a part.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge Israel is no more an "evil" than is Scotland. Every people should have the right to self determination and self rule. In the case of the Palestinians, this is a false construct. There was never a country called Palestine. It was a region in the Ottoman Empire. The Arabs of that area were the same as the Arabs of nearby lands like TransJordan and Lebanon. In fact, Jordan is a majority Palestinian country right now. So why don't we hear calls for THAT to be a Palestinian state?
voncello 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge I also have many Chrsitian friends who don't believe in Jesus or God. One friend said he believes in Santa Claus but not Jesus. He loves the holidays and the values of giving but he doesn't buy the rising from the dead and the virgin birth. But he still considers himself a Chrsitian. From the way you are talking I assume you are a Muslim because only Islam has a doctrine that those who do not believe in the faith should be killed. Jews believe in free thought.Live & let live.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello You presumed completely wrong. I’m nowhere near Islamic, considering I hold pretty much the opposite ideals of them. Personally I’d rather be Jewish than Muslim, though that doesn’t say much. Also say where I said that anyone who doesn’t have faith should be killed. Considering I’m a non-religious and a free thinker, I think being a Muslim would be pretty hard. Also just because someone has a belief in Christian culture doesn’t necessarily make them a true Christian.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistful What is a "true" Christian? Do you have to go to church every sunday? Do you have to take communion? Must you take a vow of poverty? Or do you just have to say "I believe in Jesus"?
You'd rather be Jewish probably because it is much less restrictive. Women can dress as they please and come and go without permission. No call to Jihad or a death penalty for adultery or leaving the faith. Jews don't want to be ruled by Muslims for similar reasons, hence the need for a Jewish state.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello A true Christian would be one who is of adult age, goes to church regularly and believes in the religion. Anyone else isn't really a true Christian, maybye a partial or apathetic Christian. Judaism is more open than Islam, however even Judaism has its fair share of flaws and extremist sects. In the present day I think the Jews should hve a right to remain in Israel, however only if they allow the Palestinians to have some of the land for their own state, something zionism prevents.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulof Judaism has tiny groups of extremists but overall it is a very open minded religion. Jews are actually taught to question. The whole process of learning the Bible is the student asking questions and trying to stump the teacher. Jews say they learn together rather than study. Reason being that the teacher learns as much as the student! The Palestinians were offered a state by Clinton. Arafat turned it down. Their leaders really want to take over Israel. They keep trying to find a way.
voncello 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge You do make a good point that mixing Arab and Jewish cultures in one country is difficult. Then again, as we have seen in Europe mixing of Arab and most "Infidel" cultures is problematic. Is there a non-Muslim country that would tolerate an influx of Arabs to over 50% of pop.? Sharia law would follow:. women covered up, death penalty for adultery, 2nd class status for "Infidels". The Muslims have approx. 50 countries. The Jews have one! Israel is not the problem.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello No country would tolerate an influx of 50% of any immigrants, Israel certainly wouldn't. You don't have to convince me of the horribleness of sharia law. And although Muslims have 50 countries their population is over 1 billion, whereas Jews are barely over 13 million. Israel is not the only problem would be a better saying. It has to adapt, cast out the ideas of expanding more and of creating a one relgion nation. Only then can it even begin to solve the other problems.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge The United States is almost 100% immigrant! We have no problem accepting every kind of person except those who want to force us to convert to their beliefs. The concept of expanding and creating a one world religious nation is Islam. Judaism sees a world of many nations living in peace. Just as England and Jordan have a right to exist, so does Israel. The Palestinians were offered a country but turned it down. This situation could be easily solved if they truly wanted peace.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello To say Americans don’t have a problem with excepting immigrants is extremely wrong. Hate crimes against blacks and Hispanics are high, and there are many restrictions against letting people in. Every person has the right to have a nationality, however it’s this urge to follow an ancient vision that is the problem. Also if an immigrant came up to you and said ‘This land is ours now, but you can move to another country’ do you think you would be happy and accepting of it?
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge American ARE immigrants. Blacks have been here longer than many whites so they aren't immigrants. If we all lhave the right to follow nationalities why would it matter ancient or modern? If America is around in 1000 years it will be just as valid to be American then as now.
My family was forced out of Poland and Russia. We accepted our fate and moved on. We are now Americans and would never go back. Many Arabs stayed in Israel and are doing very well and are happy.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello Americans may be immigrants, but that doesn’t exclude them from hating other immigrants.I imagine your family wasn’t all to happy about leaving Poland and Russia. It was their home which they were then forced out of. No one’s happy to be removed from their home by force. What if native Americans decided that all the other people in the U.S. should leave because it is their original land. How many Americans would be happy to leave then, a place that was their home for centuries.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge My great grandmother told me stories of how Jews were tortured, even dragged through the streets tied upside down to horse carraiges! She left alone at the age of 12 and came to America not knowing Enlish or a soul. That is how bad it was. But I am not going to fight with the Polish people to give me back my grandmother's house. It's over. We have moved on and we are better off now. In fact had she not left she would have died in the Holocaust. Live & let live & move on.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello People have the right to move migrate to a country they choose. However when natives are persecuted that's a different matter. It wasn't justifiable for the Nazis to invade and annex Poland, persecuting the Polish people. That form of immigration is more forcible conquest than true migration. When Israel was created, on the basis of a much older notion than the 1919 removal of German land which became Poland, the same principal applied, albeit certainly not as brutal.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge The area of Israel & Jordan was a territory in the Ottoman Empire. When they sided with Germany the allies broke up their empire. The British promised all of Transjordan to the Jews who already had a presence there. The Arabs negotiated 80% of it away before the UN vote that gave the Jews 20%. Everything would have been fine but the Arabs attacked the new country. They acted like Germany going into Poland. They attacked a sovereign country even though they already took 80%.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello In the middle east there are few good forces. Both the Arabs and the Jews, when they moved into Jerusalem acted imperialistically. Both had imperialist notions. This wouldn’t be a problem if both sides were only harming each other, unfortunately they’re also harming innocents. You don’t seem to get it that I’m not defending the Arab countries or their motives, I’m saying even though only 20% of the land was took that was still the homeland of a vast multitude of people.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem Jews were banned from going to their holy sites! No Jew could approach the Wailing Wall! When Israel took over they not only allowed Arabs to approach the Temple Mount, they let them continue to rule it! Jews have also allowed Christians unfettered access to their holy sites. In many Arab countries there are no churches allowed. And where they do exist, as in Egypt, the Christians are persecuted. Recently churches were burned down there!
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello You're preaching to the converted about the attrocities and single mindedness of Islamic regimes.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge You say you are "converted about the attrocities and single mindedness of Islamic regimes". It this is true will you state that you understand why the Jews do not want to live under such a regime? And don't forget, for the Jews the European regimes were no better. In fact, in places like Germany and Poland it was decidedly worse for the Jews. For this reason there must be a Jewish country where Jews can rule themselves. The Muslims have 50 countries! They don't need another.
voncello 6 months ago
@voncello I meany convinced rather than converted. And yes, not only the Jews but any non-muslim person or secularist wouldn't wish to live under such regimes. And yes as I've said the anti-semites are as much responsible for the creation of Isreal as the zionists. They even done deals together, showing that both wanted a Jewish homeland for rather different reasons.
fistfulofknowledge 6 months ago
@fistfulofknowledge People slant the history due to their agendas. As this video demonstrates quite conclusively, the idea that Israel is the land of the Jews goes all the way back 3500 years to the Bible. It predicted that the Jews would lose Israel but get it back. Whatever agendas anyone had, the fact is that the prediction was fulfilled against all odds. And now Israel exists and has as much right to exist as Scotland or any other country. Peace would happen tomorrow if the Arabs wanted it.
voncello 6 months ago
In this video I prove beyond a doubt that the call for the Jews to rule themselves in the land of Israel comes originally from the Bible, directly from the mouth of the one the Bible refers to as God. And the prophets state that God's goal is for mankind to create a world of peace, which has as a prerequisite the Jews living in peace under self rule in their homeland, Israel. Many who comment here seek to insult Israel and lay blame on the Jews but they are missing the point of the video.
voncello 7 months ago
are you saying the fate of 6,000,000,000 people depend on the Jews and isreal? common man, isreal should stop killing women and children for a debatable idealogy. jews are not special... theyre just like all other humans
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE the fate of the entire world depends on the Jews and Israel.
If you read the words of Isaiah he says, "For out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall
Judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall
beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nations
shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”
(Isaiah 2:2-4)
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello
the bible also said that the world is flat, that the sun revolves around the earth, and a lot of other thing that are proven to be wrong. the fact is most people people in the world don't believe in christ (including a lot of jews), so what the bible mentions thousands of years ago should not be used in world politics and to draw borders. your argument for isreal depends on the idea that Jews are special and privilege people... this is of course not true- all human beings are equal.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 The Bible does not say the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. If you think it does show me where. Of course Jews don't believe in Jesus. That is from the New Testament not the original Bible.
If you think the Bible should not be used in world politics or borders then should the Koran also not be used?
And if all human beings are equal why do Muslims insist we must all convert to their beliefs and follow their laws? Will you repudiate Islam and the Koran?
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 I know of Galileo and bringing him up doesn't answer my question. I countered your assertion that the Bible says the world is flat and the sun revolves around it. I asked you to show me where in the Bible it says that. You have not.
You say you repudiate "all religions" when it comes to politics. So do you repudiate the following Muslim concepts:
1. Muslims should expand their territory
2. lands that were once under Muslim control must return to it
3. Sharia law
These are political.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Psalm 93:1 "The world also is established that it cannot be moved." doesn't mean the sun revolves around the earth. Other translations say, "the world is established, firm and secure".
Pslam 104 same concept. A human cannot move the earth no matter how hard he jumps or pushes. It is secure and will not suddenly spin out of control.
Isaiah 40 "He stretches out the heavens like a canopy" doesn't mean the earth is flat.
All you have done is portrayed your false interpretations as fact.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello im sure theres is a lot of interpretation. the only fact i stated is that these verses where intrepreted by the catholic church, in galileos time at least, as the earth is flat and its the center of the universe. which reaffirms my point about the danger of mixing religion and politics. now please take the effort to just answer my questions.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 I disagree. What this shows is the danger of non-Jews who have not studied the Jewish tradition that was passed down with the Bible making up new interpretations without knowledge. The problem is not with the Bible but with the ignorant Church fathers of Galileo's time who made up false interpretations that were NEVER accepted by the Jews! And THIS is largely what my book is about. Moving Beyond Faith means putting in the time to understand books from the author's point of view.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello i agree with what you say about the interpretation of the church at that time and it danger, but i extend that to all political interpretation of religious text.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 But neither Judaism or Islam separate church and state. This is a concept from the Christian world. Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is his". He said "the kingdom is in heaven". By using these concepts the Christian fathers were able to have Christianity become the official religion of Rome thereby increasing its power tremendously. Judaism disagrees. It says that "the kingdom" is on earth. We must make this world better and not allow the powerful to rule and commit evil.
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 As for your questions, you are trying to engage me in a political debate about Israel. But you don't want to debate things that Arabs are doing. For instance, look at the utter repression and mass murder going on in Syria right now! Do you want to talk about that? Probably not. You just want to say bad things about Israel. Your whole premise is off too. The settlements are not "illegal". And everyone knows that Israel has made peace. If the Palestinians wanted peace it would happen.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello im willing to talk to you about any arab leader and i do agree that whats happening is a disgrace to all humans. i feel that way because im for equality and peace for all. i really dont appreciate the fact that you assumed my position on arab politics before even asking me. im trying to show your viewers that isreal have commited a lot of crimes against palestinians. im not saying that israel is the only one.
hakami89 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 I don't believe Zionism says the Jews should have special privileges. The Jews are asking for nothing that the Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis, Pakistanis, Iranians.... on and on for over 30 Arab countries... don't already have. The Muslims have dozens of countries that they control, where they make their own laws and have their own armies to defend their people. The Jews never asked for 30 countries. They have asked for ONE country. I think this is more than fair.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Innocent children aren't dying as a result of Zionism. If you are going to say things like that you are going to lose me. When the United Nations voted to allow the Jews to rule 20% of TransJordan and allow the Muslims to rule 80% the Jews did not attack the Muslims to get the other 80%. It was the Muslims who attacked the Jews to take away their 20%. THAT is where the problem began. So if anyone is dying it is because the Arabs attacked Israel. The ones who have made peace have peace.
voncello 7 months ago
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@hakami89 or it may be a false interpretation of zionism, What is your interpretation of Zionism exactly?!
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 You said, "zionism says that the fate of all the people in the world depends on the safety of the jews". Zionism doesn't say that. THE BIBLE says that. "I will surely bless you...Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." The bible says ALL NATIONS ON EARTH will be blessed through the Jews. Your problem is with the Bible. Religious Zionists merely trust in God.
voncello 7 months ago
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@voncello you still didnt answer my question, what is the definition of Zionism in your opinion?
hakami89 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 In the Bible God foretells the future of the Jews. He says that they will obtain the land of Israel but will be exiled twice. Then He will gather them "from the four corners of the earth" and bring them back to Zion. The prophets say that once this cycle is complete and the Jews have returned for a third and final timeTHEN the messianic era of peace can begin. Religious Zionism is the Jews believing in God's promise and acting on it to bring the world into balance and peace.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 I agree not everyone believes in God, but Christians and Muslims do! And those are the groups, especially Muslims, who are fighting for control of Israel. My book asks, how can we make peace among the God believing community? It seems logical that we compare the Bible, New Testament and Koran. If God promises Israel to the Jews forever, then how can Muslims say it should belong to them? Through logical and rational discussion we can move "Beyond Faith" and determine what God wants.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Do you know why Arafat turned down the Oslo peace plan? According to Carter's negotiator, Dennis Ross, he turned it down because he insisted that the Muslims have ownership of the Temple Mount. The Jews agreed that they could have "de facto" ownership. They could use it as they have been but it would remain under Jewish ownership on paper. This is a purely religious issue and THIS was the issue that launched the intifada. So it is not me but the Palestinians who made it religious.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Actually this happened under Clintion. I can back it up. See the Frontline program "Shattered Dreams of Peace" on PBS. This is a quote from the transcript:
"On the last night of the talks, Clinton offers a new bridging proposal that covers all the issues, including the main stumbling block, East Jerusalem. But Arafat refuses any compromise over the Temple Mount."
There you have it, proof that Arafat made this a religious issue. Then he killed many Jews for his religion with relish.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Before Arafat was born there was no such thing as a Palestinian. Countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Jordan didn't exist. The people living there were all Ottomans, ruled by the Turks. Britain arbitrarily cut the empire into countries. If you have evidence to prove that a group identified as "Palestinians" were revolting against the Turks I would love to see it. If you do not have evidence then you will be shown to be the one "shallow with facts".
voncello 7 months ago
please take the time to read the history of the arabs before making such a stupid statement. dont reply until you actually know how arabs gt their independence from the ottomans
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 "The Arab Revolt (1916–1918) was initiated by the Sherif Hussein bin Ali with the aim of securing independence from the ruling Ottoman Turks and creating a single unified Arab state spanning from Aleppo in Syria to Aden in Yemen." Before you call me stupid why don't you stop acting stupid? Clearly the point of the revolt was to create "a single unified Arab state" NOT a separate Palestinian state. Your call for me to look into history only confirms no independent Palestinian movement.
voncello 7 months ago
plus by Palestinian i mean the people who have been living in that region, which was referred to as Palestine since the ancient Egyptians all the till the creation of israel in 1948, before there was no such thing as israel. this is fact, if you cant find the documents and agreement made between the Arabs and British then your not looking hard enough. here one example from many many examples: research 1920 Palestine riots. AND STOP LYING
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 The people living in what region? Where are the boundaries of this so called Palestine? Do they include only lands that Israel is currently on? Or don't they also include parts of Jordan and Lebanon? Are the people on the east bank of the Jordan really a different people from those on the west bank? I could ask the same about the people east or west of the Mississippi! Either side of the river they are all Americans! Now, stop using insults (i.e. liar) as this is a sing of desperation.
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 And please cut the anger! In your last posts you called me a liar and stupid. All you are doing is showing yourself to be a bully who wants to force me to accept your view. This is typical of a fundamentalist Koranic mentality: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216), "Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103). I do not want to be the object of your anger and your need to push your beliefs onto others. I seek solutions and a path to peace.
voncello 7 months ago
you are stupid because you dont face my points directly i gave you an example of people PALESTINE region revolting before arafat, which you seem to blame him, and not the zionist, for making it a religious issue. you said. How dare say that there was no such thing as Palestine before 1948. examples to prove my point: British Mandate for Palestine and Franco-British boundary agreement. all these mention Palestine. i'll say it again stop lying. Israel was created ON PLASTINIAN LAND!
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 People in the "Palestine region" revolted, but who were they and what did they want?
Are you saying that the revolt was made only by "Palestinians"?
And are you saying they revolted in order to create a state called Palestine?
And do you think by insulting me and using capital letters you are proving your point?
Has it occurred to you that you are only proving that you are trying to intimidate me and force me to accept your view? I am impressed by reason, not by insults and screams.
voncello 7 months ago
the fact is israel was created on our land! imagine person A allows person to stay at his house, person B starts calling all his friends over and the next morning, person B declares the house as his own, any attempt by person A to recover his is considered and act of aggression. this is inhumane and immoral. the Arabs thought that by helping the allies we will be able o be the masters of our own destiny, the British and french back stab the Arabs, read Sykes–Picot Agreement.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 So are you finally admitting that you are an Arab? It seems by you saying "Israel was created on our land" you are a Palestinian. Will you finally admit that? And are you a Palestinian from the middle east, or did you grow up in America?
voncello 7 months ago
im not palestinian, im arab. i have never said that im not arab. do wanna turn this about me and you now? where you from? where do u live? what do these questions answer or have to do with what where talkingabout? im talking facts, counter my point, made very simply, and stop being so stupid!
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 You said, "Israel was created on our land", yet you say you are not a Palestinian. You just proved my point that the Palestinians are not a distinct people nor is Palestine a distinct land. They are Arabs just like you and you as an Arab see their land as your land too.
As for your constantly calling me "stupid" all you are doing is demonstrating that you do not know how to carry on a conversation in a civilized manner.
voncello 7 months ago
i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land, or our land since were arab, we fought the crusades, Mongolians, brithish, french, italians, the ottomons to free out lands.however Egypt belong to the egyptian, saudi arabia belong to the saudis, sudan belong to the Sudanese,and PALESTINE BELONGS TO THE PALESTINIANS, etc... i called you stupid because you asked stupid questions like wer im from and wer i live... jus focus on the argument and not me. im srry if i hurt your feeling
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 "i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land, or our land since were arab".
Who gives you that right?
The Arabs have 100 times more land than the Jews. Yet you don't want to give up an inch! Even though you know from your own religion that Israel was given by Allah to the Jews. "Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land. When the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you all together [in Israel]." Koran17:100-104
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello going back to religion ha? i dont believe in god, i thought we already establish this. non of what you just said means anything to me. talk facts for a change.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 You don't believe in God? So are you willing to say you don't believe in Allah? And will you say that you don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet?
voncello 7 months ago
srry for lashing out i guess but please try to counter my point. i'll make it simple, the Palestinian revolt of 1920, British Mandate for Palestine,Franco-British boundary agreement, sykes- picot agreement. prove that the Palestinians (muslim, christian and jews) lived in that region before Israel was created by the allies turning the jews and muslims against each other, while we all know that all the religions existed in harmony for hundred of hundred of years before Israel was even created.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Please let me know if you are a Palestinian. You said "Israel was created on our land". By calling it "our land" you are saying that you are a Palestinian. You accused me of being a liar. Why won't you be honest about your background?
voncello 7 months ago
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im not palestinian, im arab. i have never said that im not arab. do wanna turn this about me and you now? where you from? where do u live? what do these questions answer or have to do with what where talkingabout? im talking facts, counter my point, made very simply, and stop being so stupid!
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 And you are wrong about Zionism being bad for Palestinians. I actually went to Israel and met some Arabs who said they loved Israel. They said they had better healthcare and education for the kids than they'd have in any Arab country. I also met Arabs who hated Israel but your generalization is false and destructive. There is no good reason why the Palestinians can't make peace with Israel just as Egypt and Jordan did. It is the extremists, motivated by hate, who prevent peace.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 And I know "dear friends and family members" who were killed by Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinians targeted children by blowing up school buses. They targeted families by blowing up a pizza parlor, restaurants, even a Passover Seder at a hotel! They smashed in the head of a child. If you want to compare atrocities the Palestinians lose big time. But what is the point? Do you want to use our time here to try to prove how evil the other side is? Or do you want to find a solution?
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 The number of atrocities is invalid. What matters is intent. When Palestinians blow up a school bus their intent is to kill children. If they could blow up 100 school buses they would. When Israel fights it is out of self defense. They, in fact, leaflet areas where they are planing to attack terrorists and alert the civilians so they can move out of harms way. But often the terrorists force them to stay as human shields. Then when they die they say "look how many people Israel killed!"
voncello 7 months ago
intent ha? what as the intent of haganah lehi and irgun for palestinians? werent they considered terrorist group? werent they very influential in the creation of israel? check the records even the records from israeli sources state that israel killed more people, not only that but the number off youth (people under 18) killed is way higher on the palestinian side. i can back this up if you want the sources. you still didnt answer my: will you admit that Israel and palestine are BOTH at fault?
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 The intent of those who fought for Israel was the return of the Jews to their homeland after 2000 years of persecution in countries not their own culminating in the Holocaust. While the Arabs were living safely in their own countries and were, in fact, conquering other countries, the Jews were being attacked in country after country. They were persecuted, they were robbed, raped, murdered, and exiled. Finally the U.N. gave them back a tiny part of their homeland and the Arabs attacked.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 The intent of a Palestinian terrorist is to force the Jews out of Israel, or at least to force them to come under the rule of the terrorist's people. Many of the so called "Palestinians" are not even from Palestine. Do you know where Arafat came from? Egypt! How can an Egyptian be the "leader" of the "Palestinians"? It all goes back to what you yourself said, "i believe that any arab territory is part of arab land". This is an Islamic doctrine, yet you SAY you don't believe in God.
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 As for the claim that the Palestinians are the largest displaced population in the world, this is false. There are many larger displaced populations. And don't forget that just as many Jews were displaced out of Arab countries after 1948 as Palestinians. The difference is the Jews have accepted that they had to move on and they don't blow up school buses and hotels where they used to live. When the Jews were in the diaspora they were a much larger displaced population: 14 million!
voncello 7 months ago
difference is Israel offered a passport to any Jew in the world, even if they have never seen Israel. while they dont offer a passport to many palestinian families that lived in Palestine, or what use to be called Palestine plus who displaced the 14 million? i thought you said you were in exile by GOD!
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 You really should read the Bible! As a Muslim you are supposed to believe that Allah and God are one. God said:
“And it shall come to pass, when all these things shall come upon you, the
blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall bethink yourself
among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you ... the Lord your God will ...gather you from all the peoples where the Lord your God scattered you.” Deuteronomy
So why do you fight against Allah?
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 Even better proof: "Arafat admitted to President Clinton at Camp David that his faith forbade him from recognizing the existence of the Jewish Temple saying, ‘I am a religious man and will not allow it to be written of me that I have . . . confirmed the existence of the so-called temple underneath the mountain.”
Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, August 12, 2000.
This was reported in an Arab paper! So, if you are honest, you MUST admit that Arafat made this a religious issue! And he killed for it!
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 So the question for you is, do you accept the words of the prophets? If not, that is fine. But it is hypocritical to say as a Muslim you accept the words of the prophets and then turn around and not accept the words of Isaiah because you don't like his message.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello how do you know im muslim?! that's is the core of my argument.... for non muslims, what you just wrote doesnt make any sense to me. the world is not just muslims christians and jews. try to use logic to explain your argument for killing innocent civilians. isreal action destabilizing the whole region if not the whole world.
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 If you are not a Muslim will you repudiate Islam and the Koran?
voncello 7 months ago
@hakami89 And as a Muslim aren't you saying that the fate of the world depends on Islam? If not, then why are Muslims engaging in Jihad? Why are they fighting all around the world to increase their territory? Why do they insist that any land that ever was Muslim must return to Muslim rule? Why do they convert others? Why do they force people to follow Sharia law? Why do they kill apostates? Why don't they just give up all this Muslim stuff already and act like everyone else?
voncello 7 months ago
I've been to Isreal, and it's not racist at all. I people that were African/Black, and they weren't being seperated from the rest of the community.
disciple666slayer 8 months ago
Anti-Zionism exists primarly because of the internet. Most of these people that have abosrbed Anti-Zionist propaganda are reading web-pages made by people in the Middle East who are Ethno-centric towards the Arab Pan-Ethnicity, and have an extreme hatred towards the Jewish people.
disciple666slayer 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld A reasonable dialogue means that each party is entitled to answers to their questions. I have asked you if you will address the apartheid in the Arab world. Will you address this? If not then I will end this conversation. This page is a place for dialogue, not a platform for you to push your one sided view.
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello Well what do I care if you block me? You approached me on the zionist topic but apparently you lack knowledge on the subject and would rather shift attention to something else, thats nothing new. I constantly see that method being used by zionists. Go ahead block me and practice my theory and we will see if I am right.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld I'm not falling for that. Everyone who will read this will see that I asked you to address the apartheid in the Arab world. I mentioned the FACT that Abbas said he wants a Palestine "empty" of Jews. I mentioned the FACT that Jews were persecuted in many Arab countries and fled to Israel after 1948. I mentioned the FACT that Mecca is off limits to EVERYONE who is not Muslim. We can all see that you are unwilling to address this but only attack Israel. Try again.
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello Again you approached ME on the topic of ZIONISM. When you got cornered you tried to shift attention. I would love to have another debate with the topics you brought up though.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld I didn't approach you. This is MY video! You posted on MY page. YOU brought up apartheid! So if apartheid is an issue, then let's not be biased and ONLY look at Israel. Let's also look at the Palestinians. You just said you would "love to have another debate" on Palestinian apartheid. So let's begin.
NOW will you address Palestinian apartheid? Or will you keep finding way after way to avoid this?
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello Yes you made a reply to my comment, just look for yourself, my first comment wasnt even directed at you.
Yes I would like to have a debate later on on these topics but we havent finished the present debate yet.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld You are right, you commented to someone else who was commenting to me. It seems to me that you are now using a tactic to avoid answering a difficult question, claiming there are 2 debates going on. IMO there is one debate which is about Zionism but there are two sides. It is unfair to paint Zionists as doing something horrible if the Palestinians are doing the same thing and doing it more extremely. Israel is 20% Arab Palestinian terr. is 0% Jewish. That's real apartheid.
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello Again like I said I would be happy to have a debate on other topics than zionism. Regarding zionism, when it was as strongest in the 70-80s it was also one of the staunchest supporter of the apartheid regime in South Africa, thats another threat zionism is posing because when the apartheid arrives inside israel, zionists wont care and will keep on. but hopefully the regime have imploded by that time.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld You obviously would not be happy debating Palestinian apartheid because you keep dodging the question. It is also obvious that you are dodging it because we all know that the Palestinians want a total apartheid Palestine without a single Jew. Yet you want to ignore that and keep attacking Israel which is 20% Arab. Now you are reaching back 40 years to find something else to attack Israel about. But you ignore Hamas and Hezbollah which the US labels terrorist organizations.
voncello 8 months ago
how many did the Hamas kill? How many has isreal killed?
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 How many would Hamas kill if they had the power? The fact is that Israel would like to live in peace. Since Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel it hasn't killed any Egyptians or Jordanians. The same would be true if Hamas made peace with Israel. But Hamas has stated that it wants to destroy Israel. So until it decides that it wants peace war will continue and the fault will be on Hamas.
voncello 7 months ago
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hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 You asked me, "how do you know I'm a muslim?" It is now clear that you are. Aside from your name, which is a Muslim name, you are refusing to repudiate Islam and the Koran. A non-Muslim would have no problem repudiating these. So clearly you are a Muslim and you are looking for a fight. Please go elsewhere to have a fight. My video is about how the Bible says that world peace will come when the Jews live safely in Israel. And the Bible does indeed say that. Period.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello not because i have an ARABIC name does that mean i have to subscribe to a muslim ideology. islam is a religion and not a state, country or tribe. please try to limit your ignorance. im not looking for a fight, these are word and im debating you to understand your views. please try to concentrate on the issue and not me
hakami89 7 months ago
@hakami89 Islam is in fact a lot more than a "religion". Islam doesn't recognize a difference between religion and politics. That is why in Iran the Mullahs control the state. This is true in many Islamic countries. Islam does in fact call for the conquest of land and the forced institution of Sharia law. Look at the Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia, etc. for evidence of this. You can insult me by calling me ignorant but readers will see that I am quite knowledgable about Islam.
voncello 7 months ago
@voncello you still didn't answer my question, or maybe your trying to avoid the answer. how many people did the Palestine government(s) kill and how many did the Israel government kill. the answer to that suggest something different from what you said. in addition, you cant expect to occupy a land, displace its population, expand your illegal settlement, create water shortages, limit humanitarian aid to desperate people and expect the Palestinians not to fight back!
hakami89 7 months ago
@voncello ..not to mention the israel/south african nuclear weapons collab.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld which never happened.
disciple666slayer 8 months ago
@voncello Well if you remember, the palestinians said jews could live in palestine pre-1947, so its nothing new. Problem is zionists refused to acknowledge that since the goal was a arab-free israel or close to, Ben Gurion put the ammounth to around 20% if I am not misstaken. Problem is though that the settlers dont want to move and dont want to live in a palestinian state.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld Too bad. If the agreement is to give those areas to the Palestinians then they will have to live there or move back to Israel. But you haven't produced one quote of a Palestinian leader who would agree to incorporating the Jews into Palestine. From everything I've seen they want Palestine to be 100% Judenrein making them much more into apartheid than Israel.
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello I dont have any quote in mind no, palestinians didnt want to divide but the jews could live with the palestinians which they de facto did until jews wanted their own state and thats whats drifting them to apartheid. And in the end a one-state solution.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld Here's a quote: "The claim that the Palestinians have abandoned their goal of “liberating” all of Palestine ignores what they themselves keep saying (though, admittedly, in Arabic). On May 28, Mahmud Abbas declared in Doha that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, that he will never give up on the “right of return,” and that the future Palestinian state will be “clean” (or “empty,” depending on the translation) of any Israeli presence (including civilians). "
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello if I could continue to my previous comment, its a rather dead-end position israel have put herself in. On the one hand refusing to acknowledge palestinian state, on the other hand, refusing a binational state for the both of people. But again, it will become a 1state solution because when the apartheid have arrived israel will become more isolated and hopefully sanctioned. I think the regime will implode by itself thouggh.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld You seem to be retreating from your claim that Palestinians would allow Jews to live in a Palestinian state. I sent you a quote from Abbas stating that a future Palestinian state will be "clean" or "empty" of Jews. Until you can produce a quote to the contrary it is clear that the real apartheid state is the Palestinian. Why don't you spend your efforts speaking to Palestinians about ending their very real apartheid?
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello No you missunderstand, I wrote that jews could live in a palestinian state.
Also the point by implosion I made above is that it will generate a 1state solution which is the best solution for all.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld Did you read what Abbas said? He will not accept Israel, he will not end his demand to flood Israel with Arabs, and he wants a Palestine "empty" of Jews. So the reality is that he wants a one state of Palestine in Israel and then he wants the Jews to be kicked out. If you don't believe me, just read what he said!
voncello 8 months ago
@voncello You missunderstand again, this has nothing to do with Abbas nor two-state-settlement but the pre-1947 time.
israelthreatingworld 8 months ago
@israelthreatingworld Right but Abbas, not to mention Hamas, would not only like to return the area to the way it was in 1947 but they would like to kick out all of the Jews, in much the same way as the Jews were kicked out of virtually every other Arab country after 1948. Around 800,000 Jews fled from persecution to Israel from Arab countries. And now Palestinian leaders would like to take over Israel and kick the Jews out of there too.
voncello 8 months ago
Isn't it also interesting that even though this video is about the biblical foundation for Zionism very few people comment on that. Rather they launch into attacks on Israel, Zionists, and Jews in general. This is an example of not letting the facts get in the way of one's beliefs. If there is ever to be peace in that region people need to understand that the history of what we are seeing th