Soldier Summit, at 2,279 m (7,447 feet), is in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah. The nearby town of Helper, UT derives its name from the helper engines needed to clear the summit.
@flyrock45 I would say pretty tuff. Probably the best way is to have the midtrain helpers start to push the slack into the head in units, then the head end start to slowly notch it out until they get it moving pretty good.
@Haggman66 All train crews .. normally have radio_telephones .. ON_BOARD .. such that they communicate instantly .. with the crews further down the train .. unlike the oldtime twin header & pusher STEAM LOCO CREWS .. whom relied ONLY on a code of WISTLE TOOTS (and often didn't hear these ... through tunnels .. or high levels of other noises)
@Haggman66 Remote control. The mid train locos are radio controlled automatically by the front end locos so the "engineer" only has to drive one loco regardless of how many sets are on the train.
8 years ago about some unfortunate fellah checkin the back end knuckle well the train ended up adding one more car. and well he ended up being part of the train.
@outlawcountryman: 8 years ago about some unfortunate fellah checkin the back end knuckle well the train ended up adding one more car. and well he ended up being part of the train.
JM: Same thing happened to my grandfather. Train cars can be very silent. Same thing almost happened to my father. He had a helper watching his back....literally, and being on watch is boring right? So like a ten year old in the outfield, this look-out got distracted. Train clipped my father hurt him bad.
@1jackdk Oh & if one listens very carefully- it's about 1min14 that the 1st "screech" of applied brakes occurs- & EVEN THOUGH- the 1st set of loco's was already shutting down- the second "mid_point" loco's were still "push-pulling" at high power & then- about 1min22- the midpoint loco's come under MORE "backpressure" from the effect of the lead loco's NO_LONGER puling (before the airhose fully separated) and thus- even AFTER the brakes started "emergency_stop" -- these were still grunting along.
They are bad for not taking the tape measure with them? Real railroaders, I guess, just get on with the job knowing that their experience will see them right... Cut them a break and don't film them if you think they're committing some minor, technical, rule infringement. It's real life out there - not sitting in front of a computer trying to score points!
@machapu Yeah, great idea, tie down the train and pump up the air just to pull ahead a few dozen feet, waste the better part of an hour in the process. No officer would write them up for changing a knuckle like they did.
@fyadcorp Its interesting how many railroad experts seem to post on YouTube. I have been working for UP as a train crew since 2008 I know how it’s supposed to work; violating a rule is violating a rule. Rule 81.2.2 says equipment must be separated 100 feet. I think it used to be 50 though. The only exception is if they had "prior approval" which is possible.
I do not film trains but i have a massive collection of videos of trains, all kinds, steam diesel.... I'm curious to know in what manner they were alerted to a pulled knuckle situation from their vantage point. thank you
@sparks1504 When the knuckle pulls apart, so do the cars. In this case, the lead locomotives where pulling harder then the locomotives in the middle. The cars come apart, and the air hoses disconnects, causing the train to lose air preasure setting the brakes. Its nothing the engineer has to do. The train just goes into emergency. Thanks for watching...
@1jackdk Yep- accidental separation of train rolling stock (where the westinghouse airbrake system is used) causes the air hose 2 pull apart & instantly locks the brakes of all following vehicles (away from the loco) whereas the LOCO section of the train suffers immediate losss of pressure causing alarms to operate inside the cab as well as applying the brakes slightly later (thereby causing the seperation gap)- unfortunately- slow train speeds result in reduced FIXED emergency STOPPED positions
@sparks1504 Also, on many occasions...it's just a cracked knuckle that finally gave way from many hard trips under it's belt...lol. They don't last forever! Great vid, I love the sound of the locomotives. I hope UP picks up the coal contract on the Houston, Tx. side so I get handle coal trains again!
@sparks1504 Fortunately. Westinghouse brake system's operate- such that any accidental separation which pulls apart the OPEN_FLOW airhose connections- results in immediate LOSS of hold_open "pressure" (which causes the brakes to close ON ALL CARS- in the emergency position).
However- that in itself- is a MAJOR FAULT.
Especially when some "twit" forgets to fully open the "air_cocks" when cars are coupled.
(OR when some criminal "deliberately" closes them- before separating the train- at speed)
@sparks1504 As soon as the cars separate the "train-line" (air that runs through all the cars from the locomotives) would break, causing the train to go into emergency. The train-line is supposed to be 90 psi if it drops fast enough it acts like a big rig would if it lost its air pressure.
I'm guessing these monsters have three phase geny's and motors with frequency controllers? This is coming from a guy who knows bugger-all about trains!
when was this filmed b/c correct me if im worng (nicley that is) but i got a model of an sd 90 up and the second unit does not look like an ac. it has the hood and the extension on the back ad the door is on the right side in the front. thats an sd 90. the only other locomotive to have the fan extension towards the rear of the train was the sd 80 and up didn't have the 80 model. conrail, and ns had the 80 model. the only other thing i can say is it is a 70 and i know for a fact thats its not.
OK, I'll correct you. LOL! The 2nd unit is an SD90/43MAC, (non 6000 HP SD90 rated at 4300 HP) It's an AC unit. All of the UP 90 type SD units are AC units.
We don't cut out traction motors on that hill,not on loaded coal trains anyway.Soldier Summit isn't a straight pull it has parts that are "less of a grade" thats why you keep your head end power a notch or two less than the helps and your DPU power that way your head end doesn't run away from the rest of the train resulting in a broken knuckle.I worked that hill as an engineer for a couple of fyears.
I concur. No way I cut out a tracktion motor when I'm pulling tonnage up a grade. No way.
WIth 14000 tons I want as much of everything as I can get. LOL.
Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on point of view) I haven't had that much experience with tonnage on serious grades. Used to pull a lot of grain in IL, IN, OH...but no serious hills.
We cut out traction motors do having too much power for the knuckles in the portion of train being pulled - why just go up a grade with more power than need, well that falls back to the what if? better to have that not to right :) Stuff happens just as you see in this video - great video
Actually, I thought that was because someone bottled the string. Fact of the matter is, those are NOT reserve tanks. They serve as mechanical amplifiers to help pressure the string to release brakes. Loss of pressure still applies brakes.
No Pressure = Brakes!
My source? A couple training films by Union Pacific, one called "Bottling the Air" and another that if I remember right was called "Introducing EBS" . I do believe that trumps whatever ill-informed news source you got that from.
So you are tellling everyone that if a train goes into emergency on a hill due to a broken train line, the brakes will remain applied forever and ever and they will not release when the air leaks out???
Only so long as there is air in the reservoir on each car. Once that bleeds away, there is nothing to hold the brakes applied, so the whole thing just kinda starts rolling and if you're quick enough, you might get handbrakes set on one or two cars. Hopefully, with this being the case, there is not any significant grade or you will have a runaway.
If the air in the trainline has been 'pissed out', i.e. the engineer has applied significant reduction for a long time, there might not be enough->
air left in the reservoirs to apply the brakes in emergency mode, and then things get dicy fast! That's why it's important to have functional dynamic brakes on your locomotives. For reference to this, research the Southern Pacific derailment at Cajon Pass in 1990.
Comparing apples to oranges, the SP derailment was due to a heavy train for what the locomotives could reasonably handle and the engineer should have applied emergency brakes as soon as the train started to feel out of control not piss away the air, dynamics would never have controlled that train
Yes there were a number of reasons that happened - the train was about 2,000 tons heavier than reported, dynamics were out on two units, and the engineer pissed away the air.
Not sure if all railroads are the same, but CP Rails GOI(General Operation Instructions) for this states the following. This being a 2 part thing, the first is for trains that are at or less then 1.8% and trains over 1.8% Trains or transfer of air on grades 1.8% or less have 1hr to resupply the air and train/transfers 1.2% or more have 30 mins to resupply. After that hand brakes must be supplied.
One thing to add, being a Conductor who runs the Big Hill(Spiral Tunnels/Kicking Horse Pass) If a train were to go into Emergency at MP 125.5, I would be putting on 65% retainers. And if you were to go into Emergency again you would be putting on 100% handbrakes and 65% HP retainers.
Thank you very much for your informed reply. By listening to the scanner, I came to understand that all trains leak air and there there is an air flow gauge in the cab unit which measure the rate of leakage. (the amount of air supplied from the compressor necessary to keep the pressure at 80 or 90 psi at the end of the train)
The helpers in the middle are manned the rear helper is DPU,as far as the traction motors being cut out I doubt that you can have all the motors cut in cause it's a bulk train and still be legal
Call me crazy, maby it is just me, this could be a good argument for maned helpers, put a crew in there and they can manage the rear, or middle of the train. Besides there are certin areas that just don't work for DPU because of Curves and tunnels.
no you can't cut off "on the fly". They are not manned helpers they are DPU. Remote linked. Also half the trains traction motors are probably cut out so you are not using 26000 hp.
couple of thoughts. One, It is a very general statement to say "you can't cut off 'on the fly' ". You are correct in saying that DPU can't, no one home to do it, operate the helper. But MRL, for one, has manned helpers that "cut and run" on Bozeman pass several times a day. Curious, why would traction motors be "cut out" on a train with 3 lead and 3 helpers struggling up a notoriously steep grade with such heavy tonnage? I am just asking. It isn't saving fuel, locos are clearly in run 7 or 8.
usually a traction motor is cut out if it is broken. has short circuited or otherwize electrically damaged. The locomotive can still be used though, just with one less traction motor.
I am not sure, they may, but never went to the top to see if thats what they did. I have been on the old Clinchfield, and I know the CSX has that system. Back in the 70's, I caught early Conrail cutting off on the fly at the top of Readings Emaus Hill in PA. It was against the law then, as the conductor actually had to climb down to pull the pin while moving. The crew wasn't happy when they spotted me with movie camera. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294
I worked that hill as an engineer for about 2 years.The hill goes up in steps so you keep the head end power a notch or two lower than the helps,that way you don't get a knuckle
We where going to the next photo location when we heard it go into emergency, and climbing that steep of a grade, it didn't take to long to stop. So we just pulled to the side of the road to see what was going on. The only forces I can think of was that the headend was out pulling the helper units...
US freight railroading is pretty awesome by European standards. We don't have anything remotely this massive in the UK. Imagine the forces involved here! Great video and a good location. Thanks.
one time there was a coal drag on the sunbury sub (CP Rail) with NS 8838 uphill we were sittin there and all of a sudden a real loud PING CHinG PISSTTTSSHHHTT and a loun BOOM it was really loud and it just pulled right in front of us
you know what would be good on this grade? a bigboy
koopastompin 5 days ago
Soldier Summit, at 2,279 m (7,447 feet), is in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah. The nearby town of Helper, UT derives its name from the helper engines needed to clear the summit.
hb2019 4 weeks ago
Wow. What was the grade on that hill? Nice Video!
TrainfanCasey8 1 month ago
Its hard to imagine it can pull 25,999 horses side by side...!
ICU2P 2 months ago
Aint those SP units Beautiful!!!
MrGarrett223 2 months ago 2
looks like they need to ballast the track to
chlyon 2 months ago
If only you foamers really new about the rail road.
chubb123321 3 months ago
@chubb123321 no kiddin
fyadcorp 1 month ago
3 DPU's and they still broke a knuckle? They must be doing something wrong...
brycsoccer 3 months ago
So, how difficult would it be to start a train in a grade like this one???
flyrock45 3 months ago
@flyrock45 I would say pretty tuff. Probably the best way is to have the midtrain helpers start to push the slack into the head in units, then the head end start to slowly notch it out until they get it moving pretty good.
1jackdk 3 months ago
The AC6000 for horse power, the sd90 for weight and the AC4400 for backup! That's a cool consist! Good video BTW!
madbeastification 4 months ago
videos*
alexvanloon111081 4 months ago
jack your ideos are awsome!!!! really!!!!
alexvanloon111081 4 months ago
;-)
I like Ur fluent USE -- of the americanised "umglish" language .. with.?
A UP TRAIN ...
That's almost as bad as saying...
Someone called ?
AN 1jackdk .. carnt spail
QUIX4U 8 months ago
not good the engineer did too much draft on the Loop too much draft always brakes knuckles
geomodelrailroader 8 months ago
Good video. Do the locomotives lurch forward after the knuckle breaks?
okzoia 9 months ago
are those AC6000's and an SD90?
MrZkr123 9 months ago
That looks like pretty rugged countryside. I'd be packing heat if I worked out there.
JetMechMA 9 months ago
Are all of the loco's controlled from the front loco? how does the driver control the loco's half way down the train?
Haggman66 10 months ago
@Haggman66 All train crews .. normally have radio_telephones .. ON_BOARD .. such that they communicate instantly .. with the crews further down the train .. unlike the oldtime twin header & pusher STEAM LOCO CREWS .. whom relied ONLY on a code of WISTLE TOOTS (and often didn't hear these ... through tunnels .. or high levels of other noises)
QUIX4U 8 months ago
@Haggman66 Remote control. The mid train locos are radio controlled automatically by the front end locos so the "engineer" only has to drive one loco regardless of how many sets are on the train.
kealoa9 3 weeks ago
@kealoa9 THank you
Haggman66 3 weeks ago
extension cords and zip ties should do the trick
ArT2Oo0 11 months ago
how often do knuckles break? is it when the train is too heavy?
lukasfols1 11 months ago
just curiosity, it has 3 locs pulling and 3 pushing, so about how many cars were those locs hauling?
nice video, thanks
alfonsinho74 11 months ago
@alfonsinho74 A lot.
QUIX4U 8 months ago
8 years ago about some unfortunate fellah checkin the back end knuckle well the train ended up adding one more car. and well he ended up being part of the train.
outlawcountryman 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@outlawcountryman: 8 years ago about some unfortunate fellah checkin the back end knuckle well the train ended up adding one more car. and well he ended up being part of the train.
JM: Same thing happened to my grandfather. Train cars can be very silent. Same thing almost happened to my father. He had a helper watching his back....literally, and being on watch is boring right? So like a ten year old in the outfield, this look-out got distracted. Train clipped my father hurt him bad.
JetMechMA 9 months ago
is that SP unit (the last one) unpatched at 1:36?
celica825 1 year ago
Good Video, you handled JBOMB1414 's comment well and politely.
muzzavideos 1 year ago
cant even begin to imagine how heavy that train mustve been.great catch
GhostFearMe 1 year ago
riveting footage........
drtrotter74 1 year ago
Nice of it to occur near the engine. No fun lugging those things.
Dockshund 1 year ago
wheres the dd40x
FatSeal45 1 year ago
there lucky they had 3 more locos mid way. That would be one hell of a runaway.
BUNCHofxs 1 year ago
Comment removed
JBOMB1414 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 Well! Thanks for watching anyway. I guess the grass would be better deal than watching paint dry. LOL. Take care. Jack
1jackdk 1 year ago 10
@JBOMB1414 then why post? Lack attention else where so you're making up for the deficit here?
6V92TA 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 LMFAO Yes same here.
nitrousboy0311 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 Queer. Mind your own business.
7822welshsteam 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 Hmm.Kinda like watching cars go around a race track or watching endless football games.One mans meat is another mans poison.
gebass6 1 year ago
Comment removed
Motorcycliste 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@JBOMB1414,
Better than watching your mother menstruate.
Motorcycliste 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 your a asshole you know that? a real asshole
DarkHour404 1 year ago
@JBOMB1414 fuck you
CSX8663 1 year ago
they are suposed to have 100 ft separation between those cars to replace a knuckle. or 50 feet if it was a few years ago.
machapu 1 year ago
@machapu This was 2001 if I remember correctly, but it apears to be, MAYBE 20' seperation between them. Thanks for watching...
1jackdk 1 year ago
@1jackdk Oh & if one listens very carefully- it's about 1min14 that the 1st "screech" of applied brakes occurs- & EVEN THOUGH- the 1st set of loco's was already shutting down- the second "mid_point" loco's were still "push-pulling" at high power & then- about 1min22- the midpoint loco's come under MORE "backpressure" from the effect of the lead loco's NO_LONGER puling (before the airhose fully separated) and thus- even AFTER the brakes started "emergency_stop" -- these were still grunting along.
QUIX4U 8 months ago
@machapu
They are bad for not taking the tape measure with them? Real railroaders, I guess, just get on with the job knowing that their experience will see them right... Cut them a break and don't film them if you think they're committing some minor, technical, rule infringement. It's real life out there - not sitting in front of a computer trying to score points!
lonesomewhistle 4 months ago
Comment removed
fyadcorp 1 month ago
@machapu Yeah, great idea, tie down the train and pump up the air just to pull ahead a few dozen feet, waste the better part of an hour in the process. No officer would write them up for changing a knuckle like they did.
fyadcorp 1 month ago
@fyadcorp Its interesting how many railroad experts seem to post on YouTube. I have been working for UP as a train crew since 2008 I know how it’s supposed to work; violating a rule is violating a rule. Rule 81.2.2 says equipment must be separated 100 feet. I think it used to be 50 though. The only exception is if they had "prior approval" which is possible.
machapu 2 days ago
@machapu Who doesn't love armchair railroaders?? Answer: real railroaders!
fyadcorp 2 days ago
I do not film trains but i have a massive collection of videos of trains, all kinds, steam diesel.... I'm curious to know in what manner they were alerted to a pulled knuckle situation from their vantage point. thank you
sparks1504 1 year ago
@sparks1504 When the knuckle pulls apart, so do the cars. In this case, the lead locomotives where pulling harder then the locomotives in the middle. The cars come apart, and the air hoses disconnects, causing the train to lose air preasure setting the brakes. Its nothing the engineer has to do. The train just goes into emergency. Thanks for watching...
1jackdk 1 year ago
@1jackdk thats almost as cool as chocolate pudding
benspreen 1 year ago
@1jackdk Yep- accidental separation of train rolling stock (where the westinghouse airbrake system is used) causes the air hose 2 pull apart & instantly locks the brakes of all following vehicles (away from the loco) whereas the LOCO section of the train suffers immediate losss of pressure causing alarms to operate inside the cab as well as applying the brakes slightly later (thereby causing the seperation gap)- unfortunately- slow train speeds result in reduced FIXED emergency STOPPED positions
QUIX4U 8 months ago
@sparks1504 Also, on many occasions...it's just a cracked knuckle that finally gave way from many hard trips under it's belt...lol. They don't last forever! Great vid, I love the sound of the locomotives. I hope UP picks up the coal contract on the Houston, Tx. side so I get handle coal trains again!
thundercats36 1 year ago
@sparks1504 Fortunately. Westinghouse brake system's operate- such that any accidental separation which pulls apart the OPEN_FLOW airhose connections- results in immediate LOSS of hold_open "pressure" (which causes the brakes to close ON ALL CARS- in the emergency position).
However- that in itself- is a MAJOR FAULT.
Especially when some "twit" forgets to fully open the "air_cocks" when cars are coupled.
(OR when some criminal "deliberately" closes them- before separating the train- at speed)
QUIX4U 8 months ago
@sparks1504 As soon as the cars separate the "train-line" (air that runs through all the cars from the locomotives) would break, causing the train to go into emergency. The train-line is supposed to be 90 psi if it drops fast enough it acts like a big rig would if it lost its air pressure.
machapu 20 hours ago
i think those are 6000hp apeice
petersbilt101 1 year ago
"Pulled a knuckle"? Coupler broke?
How does that occur on a moving train? (I can imagine that happening from slack yanking a stationary car.)
What did it sound like? Happened after you stopped filming?
Is that how far the cars separated? Or did they back closer. Spare knuckles on the engines? Thank you.
robertgift 1 year ago
Nice catch on the CW-44/60AC!
BWyrick 2 years ago
Could be worse, could be snowing!
turnoutjim 2 years ago 2
Good stuff. 5* Sucks about the knuckle though.
clinton984 2 years ago 3
cool an unpatched sp unit sweet
Bartman1764 2 years ago 13
Awesome scenery.
I'm guessing these monsters have three phase geny's and motors with frequency controllers? This is coming from a guy who knows bugger-all about trains!
peanuts2105 2 years ago
Comment removed
sneadfootball 2 years ago
man that was loud
Railfan88 2 years ago
Nice, those GE's sound great!
SWPrrFanA1 2 years ago
Not a Grande fan obviously. The only true sound is that put out by an EMD prime mover.
emmasweeny 2 years ago 3
2 words:
Run 8.
Hiei2k7 2 years ago
That was one word and one number btw :P
produKtNZ 2 years ago
when was this filmed b/c correct me if im worng (nicley that is) but i got a model of an sd 90 up and the second unit does not look like an ac. it has the hood and the extension on the back ad the door is on the right side in the front. thats an sd 90. the only other locomotive to have the fan extension towards the rear of the train was the sd 80 and up didn't have the 80 model. conrail, and ns had the 80 model. the only other thing i can say is it is a 70 and i know for a fact thats its not.
justin0185 2 years ago
It was filmed in 2000. The second unit, UP#8206 is a SD9043MAC, which leads me to believe its a 4300 hp ac unit. 70 its not for sure.
1jackdk 2 years ago
@1jackdk not dash 9`s?
kernelsac 11 months ago
@1jackdk The last loco on the head end is an AC6000CW built by GE.
sd70m2man 4 months ago
OK, I'll correct you. LOL! The 2nd unit is an SD90/43MAC, (non 6000 HP SD90 rated at 4300 HP) It's an AC unit. All of the UP 90 type SD units are AC units.
spcascades 2 years ago
No those two engines put out 4400 horsepower. They are modified and I believe are called CW44AC?
graysonator123 2 years ago
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FGLK1751 2 years ago
sorry bro didnt see the 3 middle dpu's. my apologies! they say when you become and engineer you lose half your brain. guess they were right =)
Krause12689 2 years ago
how do you get 26000 horsepower? ge units only generate 4500
Krause12689 2 years ago
the first 2 GE units were AC6000CWs which out put 6000hp
FGLK1702 2 years ago
no unit UP uses puts out 6000 horsepower
Krause12689 2 years ago
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FGLK1751 2 years ago
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xxxDeath9572xxx 2 years ago
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FGLK1751 2 years ago
We don't cut out traction motors on that hill,not on loaded coal trains anyway.Soldier Summit isn't a straight pull it has parts that are "less of a grade" thats why you keep your head end power a notch or two less than the helps and your DPU power that way your head end doesn't run away from the rest of the train resulting in a broken knuckle.I worked that hill as an engineer for a couple of fyears.
0352 2 years ago
I concur. No way I cut out a tracktion motor when I'm pulling tonnage up a grade. No way.
WIth 14000 tons I want as much of everything as I can get. LOL.
Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on point of view) I haven't had that much experience with tonnage on serious grades. Used to pull a lot of grain in IL, IN, OH...but no serious hills.
I am though one hell of a yard engineer. LOL
charlieb640 2 years ago
We cut out traction motors do having too much power for the knuckles in the portion of train being pulled - why just go up a grade with more power than need, well that falls back to the what if? better to have that not to right :) Stuff happens just as you see in this video - great video
chromebullitts 2 years ago
Try searching google for "Bottling the Air" WITH quotes. It was the first response for me.
zaphodb777 2 years ago
Mind you, it wasn't a movie, but a very good description of how and why closing petcocks at both ends of a string is a BAD idea.
zaphodb777 2 years ago
Actually, I thought that was because someone bottled the string. Fact of the matter is, those are NOT reserve tanks. They serve as mechanical amplifiers to help pressure the string to release brakes. Loss of pressure still applies brakes.
No Pressure = Brakes!
My source? A couple training films by Union Pacific, one called "Bottling the Air" and another that if I remember right was called "Introducing EBS" . I do believe that trumps whatever ill-informed news source you got that from.
zaphodb777 2 years ago
If there is a trainline separation (with no helpers), how long do they have to reattach air before any leaks cause the brakes to release?
Eng8492 3 years ago
US Railroads operate on a pressure release system.
Loss of pressure causes brake application, so the safest mode is without air in the lines.
zaphodb777 3 years ago
Comment removed
Eng8492 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
So you are tellling everyone that if a train goes into emergency on a hill due to a broken train line, the brakes will remain applied forever and ever and they will not release when the air leaks out???
Eng8492 3 years ago
Only so long as there is air in the reservoir on each car. Once that bleeds away, there is nothing to hold the brakes applied, so the whole thing just kinda starts rolling and if you're quick enough, you might get handbrakes set on one or two cars. Hopefully, with this being the case, there is not any significant grade or you will have a runaway.
If the air in the trainline has been 'pissed out', i.e. the engineer has applied significant reduction for a long time, there might not be enough->
silicon212 2 years ago
air left in the reservoirs to apply the brakes in emergency mode, and then things get dicy fast! That's why it's important to have functional dynamic brakes on your locomotives. For reference to this, research the Southern Pacific derailment at Cajon Pass in 1990.
silicon212 2 years ago
Or 1989.
silicon212 2 years ago
Comparing apples to oranges, the SP derailment was due to a heavy train for what the locomotives could reasonably handle and the engineer should have applied emergency brakes as soon as the train started to feel out of control not piss away the air, dynamics would never have controlled that train
chromebullitts 2 years ago
Yes there were a number of reasons that happened - the train was about 2,000 tons heavier than reported, dynamics were out on two units, and the engineer pissed away the air.
silicon212 2 years ago
The air discharge is instantaneous and the brakes go into emergency right away.
charlieb640 2 years ago
Not sure if all railroads are the same, but CP Rails GOI(General Operation Instructions) for this states the following. This being a 2 part thing, the first is for trains that are at or less then 1.8% and trains over 1.8% Trains or transfer of air on grades 1.8% or less have 1hr to resupply the air and train/transfers 1.2% or more have 30 mins to resupply. After that hand brakes must be supplied.
CPRailConductor 2 years ago
One thing to add, being a Conductor who runs the Big Hill(Spiral Tunnels/Kicking Horse Pass) If a train were to go into Emergency at MP 125.5, I would be putting on 65% retainers. And if you were to go into Emergency again you would be putting on 100% handbrakes and 65% HP retainers.
CPRailConductor 2 years ago
Thank you very much for your informed reply. By listening to the scanner, I came to understand that all trains leak air and there there is an air flow gauge in the cab unit which measure the rate of leakage. (the amount of air supplied from the compressor necessary to keep the pressure at 80 or 90 psi at the end of the train)
Eng8492 2 years ago
Pretty much. You got it.
charlieb640 2 years ago
The helpers in the middle are manned the rear helper is DPU,as far as the traction motors being cut out I doubt that you can have all the motors cut in cause it's a bulk train and still be legal
0352 3 years ago
Call me crazy, maby it is just me, this could be a good argument for maned helpers, put a crew in there and they can manage the rear, or middle of the train. Besides there are certin areas that just don't work for DPU because of Curves and tunnels.
joshjefflawn 3 years ago
what a beautiful site, an unpatched SP AC4400cw.
joshjefflawn 3 years ago
no you can't cut off "on the fly". They are not manned helpers they are DPU. Remote linked. Also half the trains traction motors are probably cut out so you are not using 26000 hp.
1sloconductor 3 years ago
couple of thoughts. One, It is a very general statement to say "you can't cut off 'on the fly' ". You are correct in saying that DPU can't, no one home to do it, operate the helper. But MRL, for one, has manned helpers that "cut and run" on Bozeman pass several times a day. Curious, why would traction motors be "cut out" on a train with 3 lead and 3 helpers struggling up a notoriously steep grade with such heavy tonnage? I am just asking. It isn't saving fuel, locos are clearly in run 7 or 8.
BudmanPackfan 3 years ago
I agree. Very general statement. I've pushed (or have been pushed) many times and cut off the rear units 'on the fly'.
And seriously, why would you cut out your traction motors. That makes no sense. Why drag excess tonnage up the hill if they are not assisting?
charlieb640 2 years ago
usually a traction motor is cut out if it is broken. has short circuited or otherwize electrically damaged. The locomotive can still be used though, just with one less traction motor.
randknu 2 years ago
True. I read the post to mean that all traction motors on a unit were out. I probably read that wrong.
charlieb640 2 years ago
Comment removed
1sloconductor 3 years ago
hello, i am from France, (so my english maybe not very sharp)
i want to know what is the system used for brakes, ElectroPneumatical ? or simple air underpression ? i think E/P ?
great video, i am fan of US freight train :D
danisim9 3 years ago
@danisim9 For diesel and electric locomotives, the braking types are air and dynamic braking. For steam locomotives, the braking type is air.
Jemalacane 1 year ago
Does UP use that system where the helpers can cut off on the fly? (Meaning the train end ones obviously)
darkyoda 3 years ago
I am not sure, they may, but never went to the top to see if thats what they did. I have been on the old Clinchfield, and I know the CSX has that system. Back in the 70's, I caught early Conrail cutting off on the fly at the top of Readings Emaus Hill in PA. It was against the law then, as the conductor actually had to climb down to pull the pin while moving. The crew wasn't happy when they spotted me with movie camera. Thanks for watching. Jackmp294
1jackdk 3 years ago
I worked that hill as an engineer for about 2 years.The hill goes up in steps so you keep the head end power a notch or two lower than the helps,that way you don't get a knuckle
0352 3 years ago
not too smart going between the cars to change the knuckle with so little space... that looked like about 1 car...
nickleinonen 3 years ago
All the crew is safe, and three step protection was inforced. Thanks for looking. Jack
1jackdk 3 years ago
Did you capture the train going into full emergency?
Would like to hear and see that and see how long it took to stop.
I didn't know they could break a knuckle just from pulling.
Were there other forces involved, such as slack action waves or something?
Thank you.
robertgift 3 years ago
We where going to the next photo location when we heard it go into emergency, and climbing that steep of a grade, it didn't take to long to stop. So we just pulled to the side of the road to see what was going on. The only forces I can think of was that the headend was out pulling the helper units...
1jackdk 3 years ago
WOW! Great Video!
xxxDeath9572xxx 3 years ago
US freight railroading is pretty awesome by European standards. We don't have anything remotely this massive in the UK. Imagine the forces involved here! Great video and a good location. Thanks.
SteffanLlwyd 3 years ago
AC4400, 90-43MAC, AC6000 on the point and another 4400 and a couple of SD70MAC's mid-train?
UP4012 3 years ago
oops, the last 2 are GE's a 4400 and either a 4400 or a dash 9? (didn't look carefully enough at the trucks)
UP4012 3 years ago
Both SP units are AC4400CWs, they never had any -9s.
silicon212 2 years ago
how do you pull a knuckle with helpers!
NJT4111 3 years ago
Helpers not pushing hard enough, causing to much stain on the knuckles.
1jackdk 3 years ago
Well, at least it was only 2 cars behind the engine. Not too much walking.
silicon212 3 years ago 2
That helps!!! Thanks for looking. Jack...
1jackdk 3 years ago
anytime there is a separation, you have to walk the whole train anyway.
railheadwillie 3 years ago
But not with a 90lb knuckle!
silicon212 2 years ago
one time there was a coal drag on the sunbury sub (CP Rail) with NS 8838 uphill we were sittin there and all of a sudden a real loud PING CHinG PISSTTTSSHHHTT and a loun BOOM it was really loud and it just pulled right in front of us
RRYankfan 3 years ago
SO MUCH HORSEPOWER!! :O Makes me want to cry just looking at it. AWESOME vid! I wish I was there! Sucks about the knuckle, though...
brookstempel 4 years ago