Blocking Reform: The Public Sector Union Monster

[krisawchuk]

I couldn't finish watching this video- it is such bullshit!

[RICENBEANS64]

bullshit I am a public sector worker and my employer is stopping my rise. their offer is

0 -1st year, 0 - 2nd year, 0 - 3rd year, and that we pay our own health care. plus some other give back to... the problem isn’t us it's the political system.

[antonahill]

I'll assume all that you say is true, so are you suggesting to get rid of unions entirely?

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill Not necessarily, no. What I'm suggesting in general is to get rid of systems that require force to operate. Private sector unions *can* be completely voluntary and provide legitimate services to both members and prospective employers. Public unions, by contrast, operate in a different environment and hold hostage taxpayers who have no choice but to pay up or go to jail. That is a very big problem.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone Yeah, I don't necessarily DIS-agree with you there. And I'm not about to claim that unions, public or private, are flawless. But having worked in industries without unions, at the whim of management, I definitely support their existence.

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill The Wagner Act makes virtually all union activities involuntary to some degree, but some are worse than others in terms of acquiring legally sanctioned monopolies on labor within different industries. An example of a private union I tend to think is alright are virtually any of the entertainment unions, SAG, DGA, AFM, etc... You can still make non-union movies, but if you want a certain caliber of talent, unions are a good place to look.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone Yeah, I know all about the SAG, WGA, and DGA monopolies. At the same time, when writers had no union, a producer could pay literally whatever he wanted for a writer's services. With the Basic Minimum Agreement, there's a guaranteed minimum.

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill "pay literally whatever he wanted" - not so... The cost of labor is based on supply and demand just like everything else. Unfortunately a lot of "artistic" jobs, like screen writing are over-supplied, partially due to dreams of fantastic multi-million dollar salaries and life-long royalties for a big "hit", and mostly because it seems glamorous to so many. Sadly, that takes its toll on all the struggling folks. I've been there myself in Hollywood as a producer & composer.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone Right after I'd responded to that, I realized my fallacy. Yes. I agree that pre-union writer's fees were subject to supply and demand. I currently, though, support the idea that just because I might be an untested writer, I'm not forced to accept less than a standard minimum. I'm curious as to your producer experience and I agree with your composer experience. It seems if one isn't Newman, Williams, Elfman, or Horner, one doesn't get paid.

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill Composers have no union, which is generally fine by me, but you have to understand that there's a major threshold you need to get across if you think you are going to make a living writing music... and breaking that threshold requires a very specific type of personality - schmoozing and networking is king. Ultimately, I don't have that skill, so my eventual path was to make my own projects and create my own work. That I have been relatively successful at.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone I agree and I've had similar issues in becoming a professional writer. Congrats on your success. Feel free to send samples..

[seanwmalone]

Private sector unions have economic issues as well, and it's certainly worth noting that almost all unions and guilds developed as a way of protecting certain groups from competition in labor. The history of trade unions in general has been filled with some of the worst institutionalized racism and some astonishing levels of violence/thuggery beating up competing laborers and vandalizing non-unionized businesses. It's not a pleasant history at all.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone I think all your criticism is valid, though it can be applied to other revered institutions as well, such as the legal system and the government. And yet, you don't advocate the abolishment of those. Hmmm, then again, I don't recall your advocating the abolishment of unions either.

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill I do apply a lot of my comparable criticisms to other "revered" institutions, but no I haven't advocated banning unions if they're voluntary. I make an exception to an extent with respect to the public sector simply because the whole institution is involuntary. If cops go on strike, I'm not legally allowed in most places to do the cop's job instead. I wouldn't care that much if cops were unionized if there was a legal, private market for alternative for protection, but there isn't.

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone I understand your criticism, but do you sincerely believe that a private cop alternative would be that great of an idea? It seems like one standard, regulated police force, flawed as it might be, is preferable to a public option in addition to private corporations who would, in the very least, be motivated by profit. I dunno. Seems like a very ugly potential can o' worms.

[seanwmalone]

@antonahill The more I see what the police force is like, the less I think we could do any worse. Furthermore, it's entirely a mistake to think that current police forces do not seek "profit". I even wrote music for a video exposing a major issue of exactly this as part of an Institute for Justice lawsuit. Search "Policing for Profit" on YouTube, and you'll find it.

[DeniabilityPlausible]

What a right wing nutbag...

[seanwmalone]

@DeniabilityPlausible Nice argument... Here's a hilarious twist. I'm neither "nuts" nor "right wing". Care to make a real point?

[antonahill]

@seanwmalone I never get people like Deniability. You expressed your opinion. You backed it up. I don't have to agree with you. If I do, all the smoother between us. But to call you a "right wing nutbag" with no articulated argument or evidence to support that accusation, it's just irritating.

[Veshgard]

So let me get this straight: Private sector workers have lower wages, more unemployment, and fewer benefits than public sector workers... and the solution is to bring down the public sector workers and make sure all workers are equally miserable? This is the worst case of misguided envy I have ever seen. No, the solution is to bring the PRIVATE sector workers UP to the same standard as the public ones. We need more unions in the private sector, not less unions in the public sector.

[seanwmalone]

@Veshgard So... You really didn't understand what's being pointed out here, at all... Do you?

Public Sector Union wages & benefits exist *at the expense* of private sector workers. It's not about "envy", it's about fiscal reality, and basic economics/logic. Unions in the public sector are electing their own bosses and using their political power to bilk the American taxpayer - and that, in turn, makes less money available for private investment and decreases jobs & pay for everyone.

[seanwmalone]

Bringing up the wages & benefits of the private sector would be fabulous, but you cannot do it by mandates! Unions are only capable of bringing up the wages of a small group while actually *hurting* the broader economy. This part is just arithmetic. Imagine having $1,000 a day to pay workers. If the market rate for labor was $100 per person, you could hire 10 people. But if a Union or the law demands that you pay double that, then you pay 5 people $200 a day, and the other 5 are out of work.