If the protest had stay peaceful and not turn into violence lives would have been saved. Don't you think we should all can forget about this and look to a better future. If we work hard China can be a proud nation.
We should look for a better future in the development of China.
The protests in Beijing in 1989 were organized by many different groups. On the streets were not only students but also common Beijing residents. Although some students had radical views, the demonstrations were, for the most part, peaceful.
For China to be a proud, powerful nation, it must remember its history, even in its darkest hours. It must firmly oppose the use of machine guns and tanks to solve domestic problems.
The dilemma with our Chinese people is we never forget what Chinese do to Chinese.
Ok in this case both are to blame. Is this vigil necessary to be held every year or even up to now? Is the atrocity of the Japanese did in wwII lest important?
Its easy to say we should never forget the history, yes we should never forget history but do we need to vigil every case? If we do every year and every moment will need to be remembered.
No, I believe we should remember the horrific events in Nanjing. We should demand a more thorough investigation of the events in 1937-1938 and demand an official written apology from Japan.
No, people remember milestones in history. Events like the Japanese occupation, the Cultural Revolution, and Tiananmen Square have greatly affected the culture and consciousness of Chinese people. We should understand and honor our predecessors, even if the subject matter is uncomfortable.
A prefer govern in China will happen just need time. Transformation will happen a need to deal in dialogue and in stages, respect each other we don't want a chaotic society.
In my opinion this vigil should be stop and left in textbooks we need to move on to a better future. Its doing our nation no good. Lets just remember and learn from our mistakes.
Hong Kong is an such an amazing place with amazing people!
The Chinese government have exposed themselves as a deadly cancer on the face of humanity, and the people of Hong Kong, just as those brave students and workers had done a lifetime ago, are showing the world that they can rise up and challenge this tyranny.
Without a doubt, the people of Hong Kong have proven themselves to be "the conscience of China." To them and the rest of China that fight for freedom and justice, I stand with you.
The HK goverment has never opposed any decision of the central goverment and it has always passed the central govt's initiatives. That means that the HK majority are the Beijing supporters and the opposition is only the opposition
Power without responsiblity is the perogative of the harlot through the ages. The communists thugs are just that, whores. They wielded total power: "land reform," obliteration of "landlord class," persecution of intellectural, the "Great Leap Forward," the "Cultrual Revolution," one child policy, the Yantze Dam, agricultural "reforms" that destroy the environment etc,etc. Destruction of everything without building anything. Just like the rabid dog yapping here. But we build, educate, are kind.
The judge, lawyer, court officials at her divorce proceeding said they never met a smarter girl. Her first hubby and mother-in-law who treated her badly were demolished by her in court. She never envy us, never show bitterness that she had to fight all her life with no family at all. She sent moeny tand food o China to her dad who never showed any interest in her. Again, no bitterness. Ordered my parents to her marital home to be her character witness when accused of steadling by in-laws.
She went to night school and worked in factory, , earning a fat salary ($1,400 per month in the 1950s.) doing machine knitting which she learned in about 5 minutes. Very smart. When she got married, she wrote all her inviitatioons herself. Dumped her hubby with the help of legal aid (and we did not even know what lega aid was.) in the late 60s. Talnted in knitting, cooking, and landed a civil service job. Adopted a baby with second hubby, forcing hubby to say baby is product of his "affiar"
OH, the servant girl of our family. We are scared to death of her. She escaped a few years later than us. From the start, I remember her bossing my mom around, telling us off, order me to bathe her baby (and I did.) What not us the class enemy who exploited her? Why are we so adoring and loving to her? Because we see her as a brave, honest, hardworking person. My mom had always treated her well back in China and she came straight to her in Hong Kong. We love her to this day and still afraid.
So many prisoners shot dead for organ harvesting to sell to overseas rich people or party scums. The offence could be minor, the charges trumped up; or it is just for "thought crimes" or for speaking out against injustice. Chinese people are thrown in dungeons or labor camps, worked to death, or cut open in perfect health for their hearts, livers etc. Ah, the glory of the motherland indeed. Do they steal children for that purpose too? Who are involved in abudcting women and children? Commies!
Oh yes, "qualities" they have: using sports as a propaganda tool and sickening inteviews of stupid gymnasts ad nausea. God, they look so stupid talking about bathing in an ice bucket to gain strength. And all those spring festival shows, so over -blown, and "patriotic,"
pass the sick bag. Covering up the poisoned baby powder story because of the Olympics while babies died. And the Olympics, what a load of tosh, wasting people's money like that while not even basic health care is provided.
My family would never survive (and many did not.) Cos we are too good and honest. They are people with real talents, generations of hard work and achievement and remain that way to this day. Most of our relatives and friends are the same. The commies kill, kill and kill so many talents in China. Those in power are nothing but thugs and children of thugs and whores. No wonder they can lie and have no shame, no humanity. Instead of attacking us, why don't they show their "qualities" here?
Who is a "capatalist?" Evidently, even if you had 2 chickens, a tiny plot of farmland, a piano or a few dresses. The "commies" were grabbing anything and everything from the start. One of our family's servant girl was beaten nearly to death cos the commines thought she might have some gold given by my mom. She escaped to Hong Kong. My aunt had to jump into the pond to prove she had no jewellery left to give. My grandma hanged on a lamp post for hours until the servants begged for her life.
How many brilliant scholar, scientists, musicians etc have they murdered. How many "landlords" and "capitalists" have they persuected and destroyed. 40 million starved to death, millions of lives destoryed. An entire people gripped with fear and brutalized by lies, threats, stupid propaganda, violence, and spying. The people on top have special food supply, spacious villas, any woman they want, money, power while the masses starve, commit suicide, slave away and waiting for the next blow.
If Tiananmen if a "counter revolunary" act resulting in deaths of many soldiers, as the "CCP" claims, why at least do they not comemorate their "brave" sacrifices, why do they blank the whole episode out? And why do those rabid dogs want to come to a video like this and spit venom and hate? For the latter, I suppose that the product of 2 generations of thugs and whores who know and worship murder, treachery , back-stabbing, exploitation, money, power, and blood lust can do nothing else.
I blame myself. Look at the first few postings by this deprived rabid dog. Just single stupid sentences. Then I demolisehd every one of his no brain, rote-learned, undigested bitter attack on the good people of Hong Kong and China. They are something he can never be, people of dignity and honesty and compassion. But I came back like an avenging angel for my people. Boy, he showed his colors and his inbecility and cruelty. He wants to kill, kill, kill Chinese people like his old man and woman did
I am surprised at my fountain of ideas, all sparkling, invigorating, cleansing, re-newing, and reflecting all the wonderful qualities of the people of Hong Kong and China. I have hope for China when I see ordinary China people who despite all the hell and destruction wreaked on them, still maintain many Chinese virtues and are so brave to fight for a better life. We owe it to them to tell them they are not alone. Good Chinese all over will listen to their plight and tell murderers to back off
And this "one child policy" demographic timebomb leads to massive female infanticide, baby (esp. girls) abandonment, women dragged to be cut open at late late pregnancy, their intimate biological deteail invaded, fines imposed or babies becoming persona-non-grata. Not to mention gender inbalance, party officials able to produce 10 children if they want by assuming false names for the children, as those scumbags often do. What dignity could one be left with? What about the aging population?
In Hong Kong, I cannot remember any of our friends of relatives stabbed people in the back to destroy lives, had to look over the shoulder when saying anything, or lived in fear of spies and reprisals. But that is what Chinese people have had to live under for 60 years. Women got raped by party scumbags, scholars driven to suicide, intellectuals had their work and talents destroyed and wasted, stupid "campaigns" squandered money and poison the environment and workers live in utter porvery.
Many people think that gangsters are interesting, colorful. The fact is that they are just mostly boring. Whether armed with machine guns, tanks, gulags, toture chambers or with broadband and a keyboard, they are just tedious. In "Communist China," the old men stayed in China robbing and killing; their sprogs and mistressed escaped to the west with the loot. The exitcement from killing and persecuting is denied to the blighted "exiles," so they clinged to the internet to let off steam. Poor scum
LOL, there is just such a character right here. Seems like a demented rabid pit-bull with typing diarrhoea. I don't read garbage of course; people should just spam that scum.
You have been using personal attacks and assumptions that cannot be proved. You claimed that you had extensive knowledge about what had happened historically in China, but you never showed what had actually happened. At most, you used personal stories to support your ridiculous arguments. "my mother is whore" won't get you anyway in the conversation. "hiding in the US" won't get you anywhere either. I don't see how you can survive in more formal debates.
Another thing, when you discuss real problems in China with them, they all have this rehearsed and arrogant patter: everything is under control; people responsible are punished; China is a big country and have to "feed" a large populace etc etc. You would think that they are in charge, those illiterate "students" who care only about themselves. Perhaps their parents are top dogs and by osmosis, these awful spawns of the devil think that THEY are in charge too. I wonder who is feeding whom, LOL!!
You see them all over, a strange breed. Those spoilt and arrogant children of those corrupt and wicked Chinese "communists." On May 13, after the earthquake in China, they were laughing and screaming in my town. They spend money like water, buying bags and bags of designer gear. They are supposed to be "students" but they speak crab English and only know how to shop. These by-product of the scums of the earth, the progeny of the devil. How different from us when we studied abroad.
In 1989, Hong Kong people were aghasted at the blood lust of Chinese Communists against Chinese people Killing 70 million was not enough for them. They want to commit mass murder periodically and systemically as an instrument of terro, control, as a key to their absolute power and priviledge. So another Tiananmen Masscare is almost inevitable. By remembering June 4, it is almost like wearing a charm to ward off evil spirits. but in the age of global communications, the devil cannot be immune.
Corruption took place for reason and they are historically specific. US capitalist and the democrats exploit more and committed more crimes than all the CCP communists combined. We cannot assumed the causes for events like June4th. Human rights activities have been ignoring workers' rights and focuses only on bourgeois politics. We as working people should reject them and reject any liberals democratic politics. Stop liberal reforms and equal rights for both native and migrant workers!
Hong Kong people must fight to prevent the insidious corruption of the communists. If not, WE would end up with tofu school buildings and poisoned everything. Women could be raped by party officials without readdressand life destroyed for no reason. And please, don't copy the sickening exploitation of children for "the glory of the motherland." Chinese media must find a less stilted, phony, overblown, and propagandizing style and substance. And we must want no part of it.
You also see colonialism narrowly as well. If you look at scholars in the post-colonialism camp, you find people like Fanon and Spivak talk about colonialism very differently than the post-June 4th HK bourgeois democrats and other big shot liberal scholars. Putting Fanon in general terms, he argued that white colonists had not only invaded black men and took their land, but invaded them mentally. You then found black men who desired for white culture.
If you use Fanon's analysis to look at June 4th, the movement became a colonial force that was trying to invade the people on a very different level. The goal is to liberalize the market. Of course, the liberal bourgeois student leaders failed to look at that. The HK bourgeois failed to look at that. "Hong Kong became the conscious of China." No, you are far away from being the conscious of China. The colonial mentality is still in you, not to talk about liberation.
"they just want to be top dogs with their jackboots on the people, stealing their property, money, human rights and dignity."
It is not "jackboots" on people. If working class's interest is not represented, they will be represented by the liberals (i.e. the June 4th bourgeois students who never did shit for the workers). It is not stealing but redistribution and reduce the income gap. You have a very narrow notion of money, human rights, and dignity.
I have already argued what it means to be human and have human rights. Some groups are not human at all. Human rights are to recreate inequality among the workers. Money has always been with human transaction activities throughout history. To ask for equal pay for equal work does not address exploitation. This was not addressed in June 4th. Students did not have the interests to represent the workers, not to mention representing them and fight exploitation.
Before Mao died, Deng was called a liberal given his pragmatic style. Not all movements can address all social inequalities. Cultural Revolution cannot escape as well. But, the June 4th student leaders were heavily influenced by Chicago school's liberal economic teachings. They had absolutely no interest in presenting the workers but the intellectuals from city areas. So, not all Marxists don't want state. Only the liberals don't. Deng actually wanted to hold on to some aspects of the state
Marxists don't want state. This is only partial true. Some Leninists do want state. New political economists following the 1968s NY-based student movements may not want the state, and they can be found in the World Social Forum. I don't think you can associate the so called CCP communists with Marxism.
You mentioned the suppressed colonial subjects and the soul and its corresponded needs for a nation-state. During the 1920s, there were union activities in HK way before the Communists in China had become active. There demands were equal rights for workers. The demands were different from democratization and having a independent national structure. It is to show you that the so called suppressed colonial subject may not lead to a democratic nationalist movement.
We have a polititcain here called George Galloway who always claims to fight for the oppressed. On June 5, on his talk show, he said he had never seen ONE picture of a dead person in the Tiananmen Masscare. Go to "George Galloway Denies Tiananmen." And I thought he was one of the good guys always defending minorities and the downtrodden. Why? Are Chinese less than human in his eyes? He does always speak glowingly of the rulers in China though. What is worm, I am writing to the House of Commons.
We feek this indebtness to those fallen and those who are still persecuted and intimadated. They give us back our national dignity and sense of responsilbity. Communists Chinese don't care about China. They are a bunch of frauds who don't need a country, just money and power and free to kill and harrass. Those Marxists never believe in a state anyway; they just want to be top dogs with their jackboots on the people, stealing their property, money, human rights and dignity.
Surprise at the turnout! I recall back in 1989, Hong Kong people from all strata of society kept saying that the student and workers' demonstration in Beijing "cleanse their soul." We are not prone to such flowery expression, believe you me. But something did happen to our souls. Maybe it was the suppressed shame and hurt of being colonial subjects; the long-tern obliviousness or impotence to the suffering in the mainland; the deep need for us to have our own country... I don't know.
I had similar experiences with you, but I don't see it as the communists' failure in anyway such way that would denounce their merits. Historically, capitalistic economic structures DO create jobs and increase production and consumption. No doubt it is a way to reduce unemployment and to get rid of famine. That was the case during the 70s. From the 30s to 50s and early 60s, the US was in a Keynesian state, and this corresponded with big government, large production, and large consumption.
US hegemony went into crisis in the 70s, and this led to Reagan's reform period, corresponding with Thatcher's and Deng's reform. This meant deregulation, privatization, internal/external migration, exploitation of ethno-racialized laborers, and the emergence of US transnational corporations. The reform period also led to the restoration of class power. Real estate tycoons, sweatshop bosses, and former officials became really rich over night.
It was a restoration of class power because in the US and the UK, and more in China, before the reform, labor had more or less power in the state through various means (unions, movements, and etc). The reform period get rid of this power. It is then to place your experience within such conditions. Was it really the communists who built the tofu schools? Partially, they did, but they did only under a liberalized government and under a decentralized national economy.
So, your personal stories started in the 50s. This corresponded to the reemergence of the world wide crisis. I don't think it is to blame the mainland but the capitalist world economy. What you described did not happen in isolation. People tended to support each other historically. Just like you described, your relative helped out each other. The idea that individuals should have freedom and doing what they want to do and uplift themselves in the social strata is unheard of through history.
It is on that point that I disagree with you and the democrats who went on to the June 4th March. They never questioned the liberal reform period, and never looked at the famine within the pre and post reform period. Democratization, freedom, and equal rights all went hand in hand with the liberal reforms during the 70s. This happened not only in the 70s but also during British's invasion of other countries through the 19th century. You see, June 4th student called for the very same things.
Beautiful, breathtaking, a sea of flickering candles symbolizing the compassion of their hearts and courage of their souls. The whole world salute you!
One old schoolmate of my dad went blind in his 40s. My dad and seven others chipped in $200 each month to feed his family until all 3 children were grown up. My family was the poorest but we gave the same. My dad said a number of rich contruction bosses offered to send us abroad. We did even consider it for 1 second. No way would be accept if we could clean toilets to pay ourselves which we did. How brave Hong Kong people were when communists planted bombs all over Hong Kong. We pulled together.
I cannot remember any of our relatives or friends in Hong Kong whinging or beating themselves up cos things were so hard. One girl told my mother that their family of eight subsisted on plain noodles sprinkled with soy sauce and oil every day. 5 out of 6 children went to Taiwan Universities on scholarship. The father died. and my dad promised to send the youngest to uni. The girl said, "thank you but I cannot accept that. I will go to work." What dignity and character for a young girl
One brother travelled on the bottom tier of the YMT Ferry with chickens and ducks everyday on the way to Hong Kong university. He was so hungry that he gatecrashed cocktail parties and weddings of total strangers. LOL. Now he helps hundreds of people using his own money. Another brother of mine rode his bike in snowstorms at midnight to wash dishes. He got a full scholarship to Harvard. Now he gives 10% of his wage to help the poor. How did we hang on to our virtue and honesty?
One relative had just a few basic tools upon arriving in Hong Kong. He became a multi-millionaire constructor. Another had a few dolloars and ended up running big factories producing paper products. One cousin lost both parents, had ONE pair of pants, living in sqatts, became a PHD in Physics. I remember sneaking a few oranges into his rucksack (in order not to embarrass him.) A former servant taught herself to read and write and became a civil servant. We adore her and still are afraid of her
Every year around the major festivals, you would see an army of mostly poor working peopole carrying huge piles and crates of basic necessities and more at the train stations. Even our familes had never dont that; we just sent by posts. Articles in newspapers had asked why did they bother so much. I now believe that it is the same thing as migrant workers struggling to go home during New Year no matter how difficult. This pilgimmage give them back their dignity no matter their station in socity
The honesty of my parents also impressed me. We never thought of enriching ourselves, always helping others to find jobs, givving them money even though we had to borrow ourselves. We all wash dishes and clean toilets to send ourselves thru universities. In retirement, my father use all his pension to send over 10 young kids in China to university and my brothers chip in. I never thought we were special until I see some of the vileness and cruelty from the product of the so called "new society"
I remember my family have more than fifty of our closest relatives starving in China all thru the 50s, 60s and 70s. We had very little ourselves, always hungry; but every month, my grandmother and I would pack and send beans, rice, etc in towels (so they can be used for other things) All our clothes were sent back as well. We did not call it love or anything, never think of it. Now I know it is what make us human. My relatives are so grateful to us but we just feel humbled by their suffering
I saltue the Tiananmen Mothers. Your maternal grace and love of your children will be a spur for us to bring the rule of law and accountability to Chinese politics.
A neat and beautifuly symmetry: Hong Kong was awakened to her national identity by the brave people of mainland China. Now, Hong Kongers have become the conscience of China. They have the best of both worlds. They came from all strata of society, from all provinces, started from scratch in Hong Kong, work hard, send money and food to their starving relatives in China, don't complain, value traditional Chinese virtues, honesty, compassion. I know them so well because my family are among them.
"Now, Hong Kongers have become the conscience of China. " - I have argued and will do so again. The "conscience" is imposing a westernized/eurocentric developmental stage between HK and Mainland. It is racist.
"end money and food to their starving relatives in China" - Money circulation was one way to breakdown the centralized economy, and it accompanied with the reform, which led to the migration that is the source of exploitation.
One small thing i'd like to say: The point of spreading a nonviolent movement is to sway the people who have not yet joined you. Saying the words "commie bastards" may convey your emotion, but ultimately strengthens the barriers to change. My video of this has a different perspective you should maybe check out some time.
1 What is the name of the song they are singing from about the 3 minute point?
2. Very pleased to see that freedom of speech and the rule of law are still very much alive in HK.
3. China is a great country. Unfortunately it has a rotten Government. We have a poor government in the UK but nothing as bad as China - sense of perspective. Brown is an idiot but next to the Chinese shower he is a saint.
Stop it, the ppl that died are not chinese, they are traitors. CCP has the right to attack them, YEAH! Go CCP, strike down those who goes against you.
Be careful when you use sarcasm in a foreign language. A lot of people will assume that you are being sincere. I can see the sarcasm behind your poor English but others won't.
The song is "Noble Blood Embellishing our Beloved Flag of China." The lyrics says that our heroes and martyrs might fall at the the barricade and make the utlmate sacrifice, but not to be said because their noble blood would adorn the flag of our people. LOL, Brown is a giant and a scholar and and incorruptible patriot compared to those ruthless, treacherous, and arrogant dictators.
I've been reading all the comments on this video with great interest, and I must say the two main views are being expressed passionately here....good job to all of you.
As an outsider trying to get a sense of what China really represents, not just to the Chinese, people, but also the world community.
I use the word 'expressed' deliberately here. Why? Because everyone wants to "express' their views....and no matter what, that's always a good thing.
i love china. but i hate communism. thnk u HK 4being the true voice of china. never forget june 4th. never 4get r brothers and sisters hu died on that day
I see that you are in the United States. China not good enough for you? What do you know about Hong Kong? People there created one of the most astouding miracle of the 20th Century. I have relatives running factories, construction, educational establishment etc, etc, that made Hong Kong rich, well-educated, humane, peacful and stable, a beacon of human enterprise and hope around the world. Don't be silly and got hanged up on "anglo" names which a lot of mainland Chinese are also taking up.
Lest we forget! I wished i was there too! In 1989 I was 17 and a high school student then! 20 years had past and unfortunately there was still no justice nor punishment for those who had involved!
I am proud of you Hong Kong people!!! Keep it up!!! The burden of fighting for democracy and freedom in China is rested on Hong Kong's shoulders. This road is hard, but this is the only way to go. Freedom is Priceless!!!
On the shoulders of all overseas Chinese too!! We are at one with the brave people in China and Hong Kong. Salute the Tiananmen Mothers!!! Salute Professor Ding Zilin and Madam Zhang who refuse to give up truth about their sons' murder at the hands of the state. How courageous!! The world now knows about them and I am very proud of them.
Hongkong is the only place which were allowed to memorize the massacre in 1989,but now the chinese young generation have no idea about this democratic movement.
As long as Hong Kong people refuse to give up and continue to fight for the truth of June 4th, one day , ALL Chinese people and their children will know the bravery and contribution of our June 4 heroes. Don't give up hope ever!!
Daling, Hong Kong people do want they want to do. They are marvelous in holding aloft the flame of freedom for China. They sure got a lot of coverage worldwide for their moving and breathtaking vigil on June 4, 2009. Get over it and sort out the mess in Egypt first. Are you still torturing people for the US? Poor lamekin, and you so worked up about Chinese problems.
India is a developing country and still very poor. Her democracy is vibrant but also very young. Most people would want to escape to Europe or the US if they have a choice. They certainly don't want to go to Egypt darling, a dictatorship, a US running dog and dirt poor.
Hong Kong people created one of the most astouding economic miracles of the 20 Century. We are hard working, smart, flexible, comprised of Chinese people from all provicnes, all getting along just fine. Try not to bore us with our supposed shortcomings. Look to your utter failure instead. We are bloody marvelous; put it in your pipe and smoke it.
You a the vilest citiznen and repetitive like a lonely old git. Do you dare to bore the US with your shopping list of demand? Nobody will pay any attention to you there either. You must try to get a life or maybe a job or you will go crazy with your grievances.
The problem is not the so call communist party in China, but rather the Chinese Leaders in the communist party. Chinese leaders are notorious with having an imperial mentality where they rule the country and the rest of the people has to follow their orders regardless. Lets face it communism is dead. It died when the Soviet Union cease to exist. You can love China, but hate the CCP..... I am still waiting for the KMT to return.
I have to point out that communist and communism are very different things given the lessons of our human history. Communism is an ideology which emphasize on equal share of economic welfare and political power of individuals. While most communist do not run that.
I think KMT has changed a lot, they are kissing chinese ass alot these days
these are people that yearn to have a voice in how their government is run...much like others whose voices are silenced by the guns of their governments...take care america that you do not become one of them...the first thing that fascist or communist governments do....is to take your guns....then your voice....then your freedom....then your life...God bless the chinese people that stand up against tyrany....and hope for a better future
Same here. And there are so many babies in the crowd. Why they weren't even eggs in 1989. Their parents are right in encouraging them not to forget about the truth of history.
Even though I support democratic movement in China...I don't think over-throwing gov. over night is going to solve anything except put the whole country into chaos and ending up like the post soviet-union Russia. I believe there are problems but freedom can be achieved with one party system. Just look at the past 30 years!
No one want to over throw the Chinese government overnight. The students and chinese people back in 1989 wanted the government to reform, NOT anti revolution, it was a peaceful protest but ended in violence by the gov.
I think you should read the history book more carefully. The demand of the students are overly idealistic and impossible to achieve. Of course that doesn't make anything right...but Im saying that it's not easy for anyone.
History Book? ??? I really hope that they are recorded clearly in history book. Sadly they are not. Oh do you know that the Chinese governement do not allowed even the mention of number 6 and 4 in China? The students only want two things from the government, one they want the governement to correct their comment on a newsapaper article, second they want to talk to the government. I don't understand why these two requests are so hard??????
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i remember watching a documentary film about june 4th. one of the student leader said something like 'i want to have more time to take my girlfriend to bars'. that is just ridiculous.
On the contrary, that is very important to have more time to take his honey out to bars. Why, one student leader even got married on Tiananmen Square, that god awful slab of concrete that does not even have a bench for people to sit on and not a single tree for shades. Those students and workers were peacefull, loveable, reasonable, idealistic and imaginative. They don't want the dead hand of a dictatorship over every facet of their lives. Bottoms up and be free!!
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bottoms up and you will be enslaved. look at mainland workers now and migrated workers in hong kong. workers under your so called democratic society are in a worse condition than someone working for a state enterprise in China
Surely there are someone in the better condition working for a state enterprise in China... better than you and me. I really don't understand how you get such an impression. The migrated workers you mentioned (like every hongkonger) are free to go back mainland if they want --but they choose to stay?
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if you can pay the migrated workers lower than others natives, why would you want them to go back? the democratic bourgeois wants them to stay. one way to do this is by saying they want (or we want them to want) freedom. doing so will allow a less restricted border. freedom does not mean but allowing greedy bosses to exploited both the migrated population and the HK working class.
You digress. There are bourgeois who want them to stay (the boss?), there are bourgeois who want them to go (the "native toilet washers"?), and there are bourgeois who don't care. I don't see your logic of your conspiracy theroy.
Read my commet above and see that you are having this tunnel vision of "exploitatation" without addressing the legitimate aspriations of the migrant workers who choose to stay and fight for a better future. There is a large contigent of cheap labor here in the UK. Racists want to chase them out despite their "usefullness." So your logic is all over the place. Better working conditions and pay, yes, fight for the underpriviledged. Don't deny brace folks their own choice and a better tomorrow.
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you impose/assume an "economic man" mentality into these workers, without looking into the historical specificity of how and why they migrated. this is to ethno-racialized an entire population of laborers by saying they want to be exploited, and your point on social mobility is to justify an reproduction of this population of workers.
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Of course, the second generation can move up, what about a shift in the underclass population? I didn't say it was to fight for better "pay." do so will commodify one's labor
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SOEs and TVEs broke down during Deng's reform, creating a large laboring population. China didn't have the capital to mobilize this population but the HK bourgeois did. This triggered a huge internal migration to coastal cities. Deng's lower restriction and reform came as god sent to Korean, Japanese, Singapore, and Hong Kong petite bourgeois. Foreign investments came during the 70s and 80s, and intensified during the 90s, which led to a huge bubble and the 97/98 crisis.
the 89 student movement should be viewed within such context. of course you have your liberal views on how the liberalization would create more jobs and create better conditions. no denials to that, but the protection that you see now in the U.S. and across the core states reflects the earlier liberal period. the student movement was a call to liberalize further.
No crisis is as murderous of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution or the non-stop persecution and exploitation of poor ordinary Chinese people in China. And you wonder why EVERY Chinese want to escape to the west.
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"escape" only in a sense of a particular time period. Why there was no external migration during the mid Ching dynasty? The "crisis" you are speaking of need to be seen in a time period. the strict maoist control followed by Deng's liberal reform. they wanted marketization and get rid of the state's involvement within the market (hong kong bourgeois came in).
On the other hand, they need to secure a condition (laws, certain labor regulation) for such "free market" to operate. workers suffered under foreign capital (from HK and Japan particularly later US's transnational corporation). then of course "EVERY Chinese" wanted to escape. The "poison podwer and the tofu school" you mentioned need to be seen within the contemporary political/economic condition. you cannot put these historically specific events together and make a generalizing argument
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cont.
the liberal reform kicked off in the 60s and strengthened during the 70s had restored class power. of course, some had "escaped" China and doing pretty well in HK through investments. the number of this bourgeois population is tiny. During the reform, the chinese central bank gave out loans (bad loans). the result was the constant state bail outs. the SOEs and the TVEs were in the hand of the corrupted state officials you mentioned. they transformed state money into their own assets
the state had a large working population. Deng's reform broke down these structures. to maintain a stabilized liberal structure, he had to build shit loads of air ports, high ways, and etc stated funded projects. this eventually reached a limit and you saw the internal/external migration inside and outside of China. The external migration to the U.S. had to do with their lack of cheap labor sources corresponded with the deregulation period.
Both China and U.S. responded to each other's liberalization. China had the the labor sources and U.S. needed them (also the Hong Kong bourgeois initially). I don't know what your definition for "corruption" is. If the "tofu school" you mentioned is one example, there are tofu schools in Hong Kong or the U.S. as well, in qualitative terms (ranking, etc). depicting "tofu school" as a special mainland Chinese product is not fair to the people. it is racist as well.
Commie bastards are not Chinese because they sell out their own people and poison their own citizens. They are anti-Chinese. You are a racist too if you think that Chinese children deserve to be buried by tofu school buildings. You are in the west, the least you can do is to fight for the oppressed and suffering people of China. But instead you turn something so beautiful and noble as the Hong Kong vigil into something to condemn and belittle. Where is your humanity? You English is rubbish.
I suppose that beats the red prince and princesses who spend money like water in the UK and the US and everywhere; those ill-gotten gains that resulted from colluding with murderous people who poison baby powder and build tofu school buildings. The total collapse of morality and conscience on top will finish China off. In Hong Kong, my dad has power over construction. He would NEVER harm people in order to make money for himself or his children. I wash dishes to put myself thru university.
taking away surplus values from workers is harm and violence. again, whatever happened before/during cultural revolution and other movements needed to be situated within a larger historical economic/political context. "Some want aritistic and intellectural freedom. Others have dreams to conquer the world." this is precisely the "economic man" mentality, and it is also your underlying assumption within all your arguments.
i don't see arguing with you will go anywhere. you can retreat to your own subjective bourgeois family example to argue against the objective violence that liberals have done to the masses, the day will go on, workers (women workers, child laborers, unpaid laborers, and the ethno-racialized population in general) are still being exploited in one way or other. you and your family can enjoy your bourgeois life styles while a large population of people are still sweating to serve your lifestyle.
You are the one doing the exploiting, doing no work and living on welfare. You don't understand the meaning of hard work and ambition. Violence is done by the commie bastards who murdered 70 million Chinese people. Viiolence to done to ordinary Chinese who are perseucated, starved, spied on and intimidated if they dare to complain about tofu school buildings and poisionous baby powder. Yes, you cannot argue with me because you are a product and stooge of the commies who hide in the west.
"Violence is done by the commie bastards who murdered 70 million Chinese people" - Capitalists are killing people EVERYDAY, through exploitation, privatization of health care, water, land, money, and labor power. Not to mention externalities you motherfuckers create. I don't know why you keep going back to the tofu school example. such events have to be placed in a historical context, which you don'
Why are you hiding in the west then? Using money gotten by your corrupt parents? Money stone from the poor ordinary people of China? You are a waster hiding in the west, doing nothing. People in Hong Kong are staying there, working there, fighting for a better China. You are the lowest of the low. A scumbag. How many people have your parents killed?
haha, well I guess you associate me with socialists now? I am sure HK people are fighting really hard. I am sure there maybe HK organizers who shared different visions than people who went on june 4 march. You don't mention them? why? I had already defended myself on why people migrate, why people fight back, why communists failed, and pointed out that you have been making argument with assumptions. I don't need to repeat them. You can attack me personally, but that won't get you anywhere.
A human being must have morality, conscience, ethics and shame as fondation before you can even say anything. I have run across people like you in the past from communist China. They seem to have no shame, no human feeling except to grab what they can for themselves. For you to criticize Hong Kong people taking part in a vigil is like a serial killer criticizing Joan of Arc. You belong in prison if there is any justice but you will burn in hell for your utter depravity. Where do you get your $?
yes of course, "morality, conscience, ethics and shame as fondation before you can even say anything." But you have never questioned where these categories come from. I argued in the previous responses that they had to do with world historical development, politically and economically. "human feeling" - please define this! You called for freedom, and I argued freedom led to exploitation, which is not free at all to the workers. You ignored that again!
How exactly do you intend to earn a living then? You eithe start a business, be employed by someone, go into government. Not everybody can be like you: stealing money from Chinese people to hide in the west, living as an illegal forever. Who will explain love and ethics and morality to you? Why, we learn it at our mothers' knee. But your mother is a whore.
No, historically speaking people tend to help each other. it is a recent belief that people should live on their own feet. Liberal economic historians tend to selectively look at parts of the history and ignored other social structures that were co-existed with the market. Your assumptions of me are false and I have no needs to defend your racist attacks. I think other people who have been reading your comments know that.
"criticize Hong Kong people" - No, I had only criticized the ones who had liberal bourgeois democratic demands. I had already explained what I meant by that in earlier responses. Exploitations/commodification of laborers and their labor power went hand in hand with democratization in the 19th century. Again, this is in my earlier responses to you.
"You belong in prison" - why there is prison to begin with had to do with the neoliberal reform in the 70s. Blacks were criminalized and exploited in US state prison. The same criminalization happened when Deng saw an larger rural labor power in urban areas. He took advantage of it. Put it in simple terms, prison equals to cheap labor to out compete small business, creating good conditions for monopolies.
Workers' demands were never represented in the June 4th event. In fact, many rural workers who were there side by side with these bourgeois student supported them, and they helped them to coordinated the events (i.e. distributed foods, clean up and etc). What they wanted were very different from your heroes' bourgeois freedom demands (more time for girl friends, more time to hand out, more freedom to for bourgeois entertainments). They were simply asking for more exploitation of these workers
That is right, Chinese people are not human beings in the eyes of people like you. They are there for you to exploit, murder, persecute and spied on. It is hard for you, I know, to have grown up thinking like that to accept any different version of life. You illegal bastard.
well, you don't need to be angry. I am trying to point out to you that the demands during the June 4th movements were nothing new. The concepts of "human" and the declaration of human rights were bourgeois concepts. Some people were simply not considered as human. I really do want you to understand that, even when you disagree with my other points. I treated your responses sincerely without any personal attack. I hope you can do the same.
You are an illegal hilding in the US. I am going to get iimmigration to track you down. Everything I argue is based on facts and profound knowledge. You use empty phrases, brush every evil under the carpet and try to "hide the sun with one hand." You are jeaous of Hong Kong people because they act like human beings and they have their own country and they will fight for a better China. I don't think you are a socialist or anything. You use your corrupt parents' money to hide in the west.
"Everything I argue is based on facts and profound knowledge" - What is profound for you? None of your comments are historically correct. You have had assumptions about the "goodness" of such terms like freedom, human, and democracy. None of your responses referred back to historical evidence.
"better China." - You never define what is better. What is free and liberal is good for you. I have already explained the impacts of liberal reforms, please read my comments carefully
Chinese communists kill Chinese people. Americans, British, Spanish etc only kill foreigners. That is the difference. The parents of the children buried under tofu schools want corrupt governement officials and greedy contruction companies to be punished. Don't you keep saying that you are on the side of the oppressed. Oh, yes, if it is not in your interest, you want to put it in a "historical context." I suppose all the people your parents kill and you want to kill will be put in that "context"
Well, you never explained what you mean by helping the poor and keep making generalized ahistorical arguments. I was trying to put June 4th in a situation that is different from your liberal views. You have been putting words in my mouth. Things i have never wrote in my responses. "people your parents kill and you want to kill" - capitalists are killing people everyday. of course corrupted officials killed too, but liberals who share your views killed way more people historically speaking.
Dreams have many diimensions. It could be about morality, ethics, love, friendship. In a free country, you are more free to pursue those human aspirations. It is the communist bastards who reduce everthing to class struggle and economics. Yet Marxists etc never can asnswer the question: when all the "landlords" and "explioters" are murdered, who is supposed to be on top and are we to trust them not to turn exploiters themselves? Of course not, the commuies are every bit as greedy and evil.
Well, you are free to find a job, and the bosses are free to exploit you. The bottom layer will serve the exploited and the bosses at the same time. For the first, it is to lower the means of subsistence. For the latter, it creates competition between segments of workers and pit them against each other
"Yet Marxists etc never can asnswer the question: when all the "landlords" and "explioters" are murdered, who is supposed to be on top and are we to trust them not to turn exploiters themselves?"
ttt
vuilacuoi19 3 days ago
We will never forget.
Idude893 2 months ago
This year.... more people join and to be protesters against government control freedom of speech in Hong Kong.
DT5236 1 year ago
I supposed if one of your loved ones was murdered, you should stop trying to seek justice if enough time as passed? Why seek justice at all then?
madhoyden 1 year ago
If the protest had stay peaceful and not turn into violence lives would have been saved. Don't you think we should all can forget about this and look to a better future. If we work hard China can be a proud nation.
CaringKingdom 1 year ago
We should look for a better future in the development of China.
The protests in Beijing in 1989 were organized by many different groups. On the streets were not only students but also common Beijing residents. Although some students had radical views, the demonstrations were, for the most part, peaceful.
For China to be a proud, powerful nation, it must remember its history, even in its darkest hours. It must firmly oppose the use of machine guns and tanks to solve domestic problems.
codexaenir 1 year ago
@codexaenir
The dilemma with our Chinese people is we never forget what Chinese do to Chinese.
Ok in this case both are to blame. Is this vigil necessary to be held every year or even up to now? Is the atrocity of the Japanese did in wwII lest important?
Its easy to say we should never forget the history, yes we should never forget history but do we need to vigil every case? If we do every year and every moment will need to be remembered.
CaringKingdom 1 year ago
No, I believe we should remember the horrific events in Nanjing. We should demand a more thorough investigation of the events in 1937-1938 and demand an official written apology from Japan.
No, people remember milestones in history. Events like the Japanese occupation, the Cultural Revolution, and Tiananmen Square have greatly affected the culture and consciousness of Chinese people. We should understand and honor our predecessors, even if the subject matter is uncomfortable.
codexaenir 1 year ago
@codexaenir
A prefer govern in China will happen just need time. Transformation will happen a need to deal in dialogue and in stages, respect each other we don't want a chaotic society.
CaringKingdom 1 year ago
@CaringKingdom there is never a time ....
biklikbala 1 year ago
@codexaenir
In my opinion this vigil should be stop and left in textbooks we need to move on to a better future. Its doing our nation no good. Lets just remember and learn from our mistakes.
CaringKingdom 1 year ago
The problem is that the events of 1989 are not in textbooks. In many places of the world, public discussion on this matter is not even allowed.
codexaenir 1 year ago
@CaringKingdom This IS the way to remember it... you think the government will allow this to be put into textbooks??? Good luck with that one.
rushius 4 weeks ago
The Chinese government is the Nazi of 21th century. They are producing a nation of brainwashed zombies. It will be the biggest threat of our time.
ashutoshmikku 2 years ago 3
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most of these protestors are just taiwanese agents and Asian American spies.
PRCForever 2 years ago
Hong Kong is an such an amazing place with amazing people!
The Chinese government have exposed themselves as a deadly cancer on the face of humanity, and the people of Hong Kong, just as those brave students and workers had done a lifetime ago, are showing the world that they can rise up and challenge this tyranny.
Without a doubt, the people of Hong Kong have proven themselves to be "the conscience of China." To them and the rest of China that fight for freedom and justice, I stand with you.
krislyttle 2 years ago 10
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The MIGHTY People's Republic of China will stand for eternity
If our CPC falls, we will take the WHOLE world with us. We will throw our nation's nukes in all directions.
Imperialist westerners with fake intentions to help only want to steal our natural resources.
PRCForever 2 years ago
Comment removed
krislyttle 2 years ago
@krislyttle They are not as brave as those in 1989 at all. There is no threat to them in HK. There are laws in HK. They are protected.
Ask them to cross the border and do it in China, and you will see how brave they are to those in 1989...
rushius 4 weeks ago
wo die methoden der kommunistischen partei chinas nicht greifen, sind die köpfe nicht vergiftet und die gedanken sind frei
Freiheit für China!!
Nieder mit der Kommunistischen Partei Chinas!!!!
TheMightyGuri 2 years ago
Die Gedanken sind immer FREI!!!!!
Ganeschar 2 years ago
nicht bei köpfen die vergiftet und unter kontrolle sind
TheMightyGuri 2 years ago
Ich will weder jemanden noch die Welt verbessern !!!!!!!!!
Gandhi: Wer sich wie ein Wurm verhält - wird auch dementsprechend behandelt !!!!
Ganeschar 2 years ago
i have a new found Respect for HongKong.
they don't deny what happen & are Free to exspress themselves.
Great video
Communists Lie & say it was exagerated
BreezyBrisbane 2 years ago 15
Thank you.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
共产主义及社会主义是注定失败!现在全世界只有五个名字叫共产主义国家的国家.有多少个正在搞资本主义呢?大家心照明白!在共产国家的人民.个个做牛做马.共产党的幹部就大鱼大肉.当年毛泽东的肚子那麽大.中国人民个个都骨瘦如柴. 大家心里就明白了.西方的共产主义和社会主义是不适合中国的!中国共产党应该取消共党专政! 中国才有希望! 人权! 民主! 自由! 平等!
brokensocialism 2 years ago 4
The HK goverment has never opposed any decision of the central goverment and it has always passed the central govt's initiatives. That means that the HK majority are the Beijing supporters and the opposition is only the opposition
timfidotru 2 years ago 2
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奴隶制(共产主义)，奴隶主(共产党)拥有奴隶(人民)的制度。奴隶(人民)须为奴隶主(共产党)干活，无报酬，且无人身自由。法律确认奴隶为奴隶主的私有财产，共产主义跟奴隶制也一样，国家所有财产归共产党。人民跟本不可能享受自己生产所得的回报。奴隶主(共产党)对奴隶(人民)握有生杀予夺的权力，可随意奴役、杀害。奴隶(人民)没有独立的人格，没有任何自由和权利。
antisocialism 2 years ago
这就是爱国这就是爱人民爱生命！
19ya66su 2 years ago
Power without responsiblity is the perogative of the harlot through the ages. The communists thugs are just that, whores. They wielded total power: "land reform," obliteration of "landlord class," persecution of intellectural, the "Great Leap Forward," the "Cultrual Revolution," one child policy, the Yantze Dam, agricultural "reforms" that destroy the environment etc,etc. Destruction of everything without building anything. Just like the rabid dog yapping here. But we build, educate, are kind.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
The judge, lawyer, court officials at her divorce proceeding said they never met a smarter girl. Her first hubby and mother-in-law who treated her badly were demolished by her in court. She never envy us, never show bitterness that she had to fight all her life with no family at all. She sent moeny tand food o China to her dad who never showed any interest in her. Again, no bitterness. Ordered my parents to her marital home to be her character witness when accused of steadling by in-laws.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
She went to night school and worked in factory, , earning a fat salary ($1,400 per month in the 1950s.) doing machine knitting which she learned in about 5 minutes. Very smart. When she got married, she wrote all her inviitatioons herself. Dumped her hubby with the help of legal aid (and we did not even know what lega aid was.) in the late 60s. Talnted in knitting, cooking, and landed a civil service job. Adopted a baby with second hubby, forcing hubby to say baby is product of his "affiar"
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
OH, the servant girl of our family. We are scared to death of her. She escaped a few years later than us. From the start, I remember her bossing my mom around, telling us off, order me to bathe her baby (and I did.) What not us the class enemy who exploited her? Why are we so adoring and loving to her? Because we see her as a brave, honest, hardworking person. My mom had always treated her well back in China and she came straight to her in Hong Kong. We love her to this day and still afraid.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
So many prisoners shot dead for organ harvesting to sell to overseas rich people or party scums. The offence could be minor, the charges trumped up; or it is just for "thought crimes" or for speaking out against injustice. Chinese people are thrown in dungeons or labor camps, worked to death, or cut open in perfect health for their hearts, livers etc. Ah, the glory of the motherland indeed. Do they steal children for that purpose too? Who are involved in abudcting women and children? Commies!
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Oh yes, "qualities" they have: using sports as a propaganda tool and sickening inteviews of stupid gymnasts ad nausea. God, they look so stupid talking about bathing in an ice bucket to gain strength. And all those spring festival shows, so over -blown, and "patriotic,"
pass the sick bag. Covering up the poisoned baby powder story because of the Olympics while babies died. And the Olympics, what a load of tosh, wasting people's money like that while not even basic health care is provided.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
My family would never survive (and many did not.) Cos we are too good and honest. They are people with real talents, generations of hard work and achievement and remain that way to this day. Most of our relatives and friends are the same. The commies kill, kill and kill so many talents in China. Those in power are nothing but thugs and children of thugs and whores. No wonder they can lie and have no shame, no humanity. Instead of attacking us, why don't they show their "qualities" here?
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Who is a "capatalist?" Evidently, even if you had 2 chickens, a tiny plot of farmland, a piano or a few dresses. The "commies" were grabbing anything and everything from the start. One of our family's servant girl was beaten nearly to death cos the commines thought she might have some gold given by my mom. She escaped to Hong Kong. My aunt had to jump into the pond to prove she had no jewellery left to give. My grandma hanged on a lamp post for hours until the servants begged for her life.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
How many brilliant scholar, scientists, musicians etc have they murdered. How many "landlords" and "capitalists" have they persuected and destroyed. 40 million starved to death, millions of lives destoryed. An entire people gripped with fear and brutalized by lies, threats, stupid propaganda, violence, and spying. The people on top have special food supply, spacious villas, any woman they want, money, power while the masses starve, commit suicide, slave away and waiting for the next blow.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
If Tiananmen if a "counter revolunary" act resulting in deaths of many soldiers, as the "CCP" claims, why at least do they not comemorate their "brave" sacrifices, why do they blank the whole episode out? And why do those rabid dogs want to come to a video like this and spit venom and hate? For the latter, I suppose that the product of 2 generations of thugs and whores who know and worship murder, treachery , back-stabbing, exploitation, money, power, and blood lust can do nothing else.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I blame myself. Look at the first few postings by this deprived rabid dog. Just single stupid sentences. Then I demolisehd every one of his no brain, rote-learned, undigested bitter attack on the good people of Hong Kong and China. They are something he can never be, people of dignity and honesty and compassion. But I came back like an avenging angel for my people. Boy, he showed his colors and his inbecility and cruelty. He wants to kill, kill, kill Chinese people like his old man and woman did
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I am surprised at my fountain of ideas, all sparkling, invigorating, cleansing, re-newing, and reflecting all the wonderful qualities of the people of Hong Kong and China. I have hope for China when I see ordinary China people who despite all the hell and destruction wreaked on them, still maintain many Chinese virtues and are so brave to fight for a better life. We owe it to them to tell them they are not alone. Good Chinese all over will listen to their plight and tell murderers to back off
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
And this "one child policy" demographic timebomb leads to massive female infanticide, baby (esp. girls) abandonment, women dragged to be cut open at late late pregnancy, their intimate biological deteail invaded, fines imposed or babies becoming persona-non-grata. Not to mention gender inbalance, party officials able to produce 10 children if they want by assuming false names for the children, as those scumbags often do. What dignity could one be left with? What about the aging population?
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
In Hong Kong, I cannot remember any of our friends of relatives stabbed people in the back to destroy lives, had to look over the shoulder when saying anything, or lived in fear of spies and reprisals. But that is what Chinese people have had to live under for 60 years. Women got raped by party scumbags, scholars driven to suicide, intellectuals had their work and talents destroyed and wasted, stupid "campaigns" squandered money and poison the environment and workers live in utter porvery.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Many people think that gangsters are interesting, colorful. The fact is that they are just mostly boring. Whether armed with machine guns, tanks, gulags, toture chambers or with broadband and a keyboard, they are just tedious. In "Communist China," the old men stayed in China robbing and killing; their sprogs and mistressed escaped to the west with the loot. The exitcement from killing and persecuting is denied to the blighted "exiles," so they clinged to the internet to let off steam. Poor scum
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
LOL, there is just such a character right here. Seems like a demented rabid pit-bull with typing diarrhoea. I don't read garbage of course; people should just spam that scum.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
You have been using personal attacks and assumptions that cannot be proved. You claimed that you had extensive knowledge about what had happened historically in China, but you never showed what had actually happened. At most, you used personal stories to support your ridiculous arguments. "my mother is whore" won't get you anyway in the conversation. "hiding in the US" won't get you anywhere either. I don't see how you can survive in more formal debates.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Another thing, when you discuss real problems in China with them, they all have this rehearsed and arrogant patter: everything is under control; people responsible are punished; China is a big country and have to "feed" a large populace etc etc. You would think that they are in charge, those illiterate "students" who care only about themselves. Perhaps their parents are top dogs and by osmosis, these awful spawns of the devil think that THEY are in charge too. I wonder who is feeding whom, LOL!!
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
You see them all over, a strange breed. Those spoilt and arrogant children of those corrupt and wicked Chinese "communists." On May 13, after the earthquake in China, they were laughing and screaming in my town. They spend money like water, buying bags and bags of designer gear. They are supposed to be "students" but they speak crab English and only know how to shop. These by-product of the scums of the earth, the progeny of the devil. How different from us when we studied abroad.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
In 1989, Hong Kong people were aghasted at the blood lust of Chinese Communists against Chinese people Killing 70 million was not enough for them. They want to commit mass murder periodically and systemically as an instrument of terro, control, as a key to their absolute power and priviledge. So another Tiananmen Masscare is almost inevitable. By remembering June 4, it is almost like wearing a charm to ward off evil spirits. but in the age of global communications, the devil cannot be immune.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Corruption took place for reason and they are historically specific. US capitalist and the democrats exploit more and committed more crimes than all the CCP communists combined. We cannot assumed the causes for events like June4th. Human rights activities have been ignoring workers' rights and focuses only on bourgeois politics. We as working people should reject them and reject any liberals democratic politics. Stop liberal reforms and equal rights for both native and migrant workers!
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Hong Kong people must fight to prevent the insidious corruption of the communists. If not, WE would end up with tofu school buildings and poisoned everything. Women could be raped by party officials without readdressand life destroyed for no reason. And please, don't copy the sickening exploitation of children for "the glory of the motherland." Chinese media must find a less stilted, phony, overblown, and propagandizing style and substance. And we must want no part of it.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
5.
You also see colonialism narrowly as well. If you look at scholars in the post-colonialism camp, you find people like Fanon and Spivak talk about colonialism very differently than the post-June 4th HK bourgeois democrats and other big shot liberal scholars. Putting Fanon in general terms, he argued that white colonists had not only invaded black men and took their land, but invaded them mentally. You then found black men who desired for white culture.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
If you use Fanon's analysis to look at June 4th, the movement became a colonial force that was trying to invade the people on a very different level. The goal is to liberalize the market. Of course, the liberal bourgeois student leaders failed to look at that. The HK bourgeois failed to look at that. "Hong Kong became the conscious of China." No, you are far away from being the conscious of China. The colonial mentality is still in you, not to talk about liberation.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
4.
"they just want to be top dogs with their jackboots on the people, stealing their property, money, human rights and dignity."
It is not "jackboots" on people. If working class's interest is not represented, they will be represented by the liberals (i.e. the June 4th bourgeois students who never did shit for the workers). It is not stealing but redistribution and reduce the income gap. You have a very narrow notion of money, human rights, and dignity.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
I have already argued what it means to be human and have human rights. Some groups are not human at all. Human rights are to recreate inequality among the workers. Money has always been with human transaction activities throughout history. To ask for equal pay for equal work does not address exploitation. This was not addressed in June 4th. Students did not have the interests to represent the workers, not to mention representing them and fight exploitation.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
3.
Before Mao died, Deng was called a liberal given his pragmatic style. Not all movements can address all social inequalities. Cultural Revolution cannot escape as well. But, the June 4th student leaders were heavily influenced by Chicago school's liberal economic teachings. They had absolutely no interest in presenting the workers but the intellectuals from city areas. So, not all Marxists don't want state. Only the liberals don't. Deng actually wanted to hold on to some aspects of the state
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
2.
Marxists don't want state. This is only partial true. Some Leninists do want state. New political economists following the 1968s NY-based student movements may not want the state, and they can be found in the World Social Forum. I don't think you can associate the so called CCP communists with Marxism.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
1.
You mentioned the suppressed colonial subjects and the soul and its corresponded needs for a nation-state. During the 1920s, there were union activities in HK way before the Communists in China had become active. There demands were equal rights for workers. The demands were different from democratization and having a independent national structure. It is to show you that the so called suppressed colonial subject may not lead to a democratic nationalist movement.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
We have a polititcain here called George Galloway who always claims to fight for the oppressed. On June 5, on his talk show, he said he had never seen ONE picture of a dead person in the Tiananmen Masscare. Go to "George Galloway Denies Tiananmen." And I thought he was one of the good guys always defending minorities and the downtrodden. Why? Are Chinese less than human in his eyes? He does always speak glowingly of the rulers in China though. What is worm, I am writing to the House of Commons.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
We feek this indebtness to those fallen and those who are still persecuted and intimadated. They give us back our national dignity and sense of responsilbity. Communists Chinese don't care about China. They are a bunch of frauds who don't need a country, just money and power and free to kill and harrass. Those Marxists never believe in a state anyway; they just want to be top dogs with their jackboots on the people, stealing their property, money, human rights and dignity.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Surprise at the turnout! I recall back in 1989, Hong Kong people from all strata of society kept saying that the student and workers' demonstration in Beijing "cleanse their soul." We are not prone to such flowery expression, believe you me. But something did happen to our souls. Maybe it was the suppressed shame and hurt of being colonial subjects; the long-tern obliviousness or impotence to the suffering in the mainland; the deep need for us to have our own country... I don't know.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
1.
I had similar experiences with you, but I don't see it as the communists' failure in anyway such way that would denounce their merits. Historically, capitalistic economic structures DO create jobs and increase production and consumption. No doubt it is a way to reduce unemployment and to get rid of famine. That was the case during the 70s. From the 30s to 50s and early 60s, the US was in a Keynesian state, and this corresponded with big government, large production, and large consumption.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
2.
US hegemony went into crisis in the 70s, and this led to Reagan's reform period, corresponding with Thatcher's and Deng's reform. This meant deregulation, privatization, internal/external migration, exploitation of ethno-racialized laborers, and the emergence of US transnational corporations. The reform period also led to the restoration of class power. Real estate tycoons, sweatshop bosses, and former officials became really rich over night.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
3.
It was a restoration of class power because in the US and the UK, and more in China, before the reform, labor had more or less power in the state through various means (unions, movements, and etc). The reform period get rid of this power. It is then to place your experience within such conditions. Was it really the communists who built the tofu schools? Partially, they did, but they did only under a liberalized government and under a decentralized national economy.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
4.
So, your personal stories started in the 50s. This corresponded to the reemergence of the world wide crisis. I don't think it is to blame the mainland but the capitalist world economy. What you described did not happen in isolation. People tended to support each other historically. Just like you described, your relative helped out each other. The idea that individuals should have freedom and doing what they want to do and uplift themselves in the social strata is unheard of through history.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
5.
It is on that point that I disagree with you and the democrats who went on to the June 4th March. They never questioned the liberal reform period, and never looked at the famine within the pre and post reform period. Democratization, freedom, and equal rights all went hand in hand with the liberal reforms during the 70s. This happened not only in the 70s but also during British's invasion of other countries through the 19th century. You see, June 4th student called for the very same things.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Can you show me some 1989 May 21 and 28th, million people March in Hong Kong film clip . I could not find any of those march of 1989 in HK. Thank you
erwyle 2 years ago
Beautiful, breathtaking, a sea of flickering candles symbolizing the compassion of their hearts and courage of their souls. The whole world salute you!
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
One old schoolmate of my dad went blind in his 40s. My dad and seven others chipped in $200 each month to feed his family until all 3 children were grown up. My family was the poorest but we gave the same. My dad said a number of rich contruction bosses offered to send us abroad. We did even consider it for 1 second. No way would be accept if we could clean toilets to pay ourselves which we did. How brave Hong Kong people were when communists planted bombs all over Hong Kong. We pulled together.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I cannot remember any of our relatives or friends in Hong Kong whinging or beating themselves up cos things were so hard. One girl told my mother that their family of eight subsisted on plain noodles sprinkled with soy sauce and oil every day. 5 out of 6 children went to Taiwan Universities on scholarship. The father died. and my dad promised to send the youngest to uni. The girl said, "thank you but I cannot accept that. I will go to work." What dignity and character for a young girl
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
One brother travelled on the bottom tier of the YMT Ferry with chickens and ducks everyday on the way to Hong Kong university. He was so hungry that he gatecrashed cocktail parties and weddings of total strangers. LOL. Now he helps hundreds of people using his own money. Another brother of mine rode his bike in snowstorms at midnight to wash dishes. He got a full scholarship to Harvard. Now he gives 10% of his wage to help the poor. How did we hang on to our virtue and honesty?
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
One relative had just a few basic tools upon arriving in Hong Kong. He became a multi-millionaire constructor. Another had a few dolloars and ended up running big factories producing paper products. One cousin lost both parents, had ONE pair of pants, living in sqatts, became a PHD in Physics. I remember sneaking a few oranges into his rucksack (in order not to embarrass him.) A former servant taught herself to read and write and became a civil servant. We adore her and still are afraid of her
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Every year around the major festivals, you would see an army of mostly poor working peopole carrying huge piles and crates of basic necessities and more at the train stations. Even our familes had never dont that; we just sent by posts. Articles in newspapers had asked why did they bother so much. I now believe that it is the same thing as migrant workers struggling to go home during New Year no matter how difficult. This pilgimmage give them back their dignity no matter their station in socity
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
The honesty of my parents also impressed me. We never thought of enriching ourselves, always helping others to find jobs, givving them money even though we had to borrow ourselves. We all wash dishes and clean toilets to send ourselves thru universities. In retirement, my father use all his pension to send over 10 young kids in China to university and my brothers chip in. I never thought we were special until I see some of the vileness and cruelty from the product of the so called "new society"
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I remember my family have more than fifty of our closest relatives starving in China all thru the 50s, 60s and 70s. We had very little ourselves, always hungry; but every month, my grandmother and I would pack and send beans, rice, etc in towels (so they can be used for other things) All our clothes were sent back as well. We did not call it love or anything, never think of it. Now I know it is what make us human. My relatives are so grateful to us but we just feel humbled by their suffering
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I saltue the Tiananmen Mothers. Your maternal grace and love of your children will be a spur for us to bring the rule of law and accountability to Chinese politics.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
A neat and beautifuly symmetry: Hong Kong was awakened to her national identity by the brave people of mainland China. Now, Hong Kongers have become the conscience of China. They have the best of both worlds. They came from all strata of society, from all provinces, started from scratch in Hong Kong, work hard, send money and food to their starving relatives in China, don't complain, value traditional Chinese virtues, honesty, compassion. I know them so well because my family are among them.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
"Now, Hong Kongers have become the conscience of China. " - I have argued and will do so again. The "conscience" is imposing a westernized/eurocentric developmental stage between HK and Mainland. It is racist.
"end money and food to their starving relatives in China" - Money circulation was one way to breakdown the centralized economy, and it accompanied with the reform, which led to the migration that is the source of exploitation.
"value traditional " - you are generalizing again
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
One small thing i'd like to say: The point of spreading a nonviolent movement is to sway the people who have not yet joined you. Saying the words "commie bastards" may convey your emotion, but ultimately strengthens the barriers to change. My video of this has a different perspective you should maybe check out some time.
eortmyers 2 years ago
We support you in your time of sorrow..
Bodgyalo319 2 years ago
FREE CHINA!!!!
TheMightyGuri 2 years ago 2
Makes me proud to be a Hong Konger.
madhoyden 2 years ago
1 What is the name of the song they are singing from about the 3 minute point?
2. Very pleased to see that freedom of speech and the rule of law are still very much alive in HK.
3. China is a great country. Unfortunately it has a rotten Government. We have a poor government in the UK but nothing as bad as China - sense of perspective. Brown is an idiot but next to the Chinese shower he is a saint.
Courtmount 2 years ago
Stop it, the ppl that died are not chinese, they are traitors. CCP has the right to attack them, YEAH! Go CCP, strike down those who goes against you.
PakistaniisPower 2 years ago
Be careful when you use sarcasm in a foreign language. A lot of people will assume that you are being sincere. I can see the sarcasm behind your poor English but others won't.
Courtmount 2 years ago
The song is "Noble Blood Embellishing our Beloved Flag of China." The lyrics says that our heroes and martyrs might fall at the the barricade and make the utlmate sacrifice, but not to be said because their noble blood would adorn the flag of our people. LOL, Brown is a giant and a scholar and and incorruptible patriot compared to those ruthless, treacherous, and arrogant dictators.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I've been reading all the comments on this video with great interest, and I must say the two main views are being expressed passionately here....good job to all of you.
As an outsider trying to get a sense of what China really represents, not just to the Chinese, people, but also the world community.
I use the word 'expressed' deliberately here. Why? Because everyone wants to "express' their views....and no matter what, that's always a good thing.
I thank you all for "expressing" your views.
krislyttle 2 years ago
i love china. but i hate communism. thnk u HK 4being the true voice of china. never forget june 4th. never 4get r brothers and sisters hu died on that day
ChanHoHin 2 years ago
thats a good point xterraman
when u have a kid call him Chinese :> or China :>
long live the Chinese.
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
轰孔是个很畸形的地方，除了会计，律师，地产中介，卖证卷和保险的骗子，投机倒把
炒股票的，似乎没有任何别的真正创造价值和财富的职业。轰孔精英们都以做洋奴为荣
，明明是chinese, 非要给自己取些anglo的名字，donnald, raymond, jennifer,
cathy,真TMD下贱。
Xterraman 2 years ago
I see that you are in the United States. China not good enough for you? What do you know about Hong Kong? People there created one of the most astouding miracle of the 20th Century. I have relatives running factories, construction, educational establishment etc, etc, that made Hong Kong rich, well-educated, humane, peacful and stable, a beacon of human enterprise and hope around the world. Don't be silly and got hanged up on "anglo" names which a lot of mainland Chinese are also taking up.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Tiananment 6-4 was truly an inescapable tragedy.
lets forgive and move on.
let the Dragon awake !!!
don not let China fall asleep again.
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
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mediumwell06 2 years ago
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mediumwell06 2 years ago
Lest we forget! I wished i was there too! In 1989 I was 17 and a high school student then! 20 years had past and unfortunately there was still no justice nor punishment for those who had involved!
ernest72 2 years ago
I am proud of you Hong Kong people!!! Keep it up!!! The burden of fighting for democracy and freedom in China is rested on Hong Kong's shoulders. This road is hard, but this is the only way to go. Freedom is Priceless!!!
eee4309 2 years ago
On the shoulders of all overseas Chinese too!! We are at one with the brave people in China and Hong Kong. Salute the Tiananmen Mothers!!! Salute Professor Ding Zilin and Madam Zhang who refuse to give up truth about their sons' murder at the hands of the state. How courageous!! The world now knows about them and I am very proud of them.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Hongkong is the only place which were allowed to memorize the massacre in 1989,but now the chinese young generation have no idea about this democratic movement.
xijuntian1984 2 years ago
As long as Hong Kong people refuse to give up and continue to fight for the truth of June 4th, one day , ALL Chinese people and their children will know the bravery and contribution of our June 4 heroes. Don't give up hope ever!!
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
HK people are Tough enough to Demonstrate on these Forgotten Holocaust!!!!
Opium War 1 n 2??
-Eight-Nation Alliance against China : Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, --Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States???
-Japanese Vacation Tour in Najing???
-Lost of Siberia to Russia??
-Spratly islands in the South China Sea ????
-China's National treasure that were looted to Western countries???
-British did not issue all HK citizens British Citizenship???
Etc etc etc.
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
Daling, Hong Kong people do want they want to do. They are marvelous in holding aloft the flame of freedom for China. They sure got a lot of coverage worldwide for their moving and breathtaking vigil on June 4, 2009. Get over it and sort out the mess in Egypt first. Are you still torturing people for the US? Poor lamekin, and you so worked up about Chinese problems.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago 3
help me out guys
India is the biggest Democratic society !!!!
so how come people do not immigrate to India with Daila Lama???
thx
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
India is a developing country and still very poor. Her democracy is vibrant but also very young. Most people would want to escape to Europe or the US if they have a choice. They certainly don't want to go to Egypt darling, a dictatorship, a US running dog and dirt poor.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago 3
HK people are Tough enough to Demonstrate on those above Forgotten Holocaust!!!!
When HK people gain back these things, Oil, National treasure, Territory and Chinese pride; The Gain will out weight 6-4 issue million times....
Political and Diplomatic Intelligence
Noble
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
Hong Kong people created one of the most astouding economic miracles of the 20 Century. We are hard working, smart, flexible, comprised of Chinese people from all provicnes, all getting along just fine. Try not to bore us with our supposed shortcomings. Look to your utter failure instead. We are bloody marvelous; put it in your pipe and smoke it.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago 2
Lets also demonstrate on:
-Opium War 1 n 2??
-Eight-Nation Alliance against China : Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, --Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States???
-Japanese Vacation Tour in Najing???
-Lost of Siberia to Russia??
-Spratly islands in the South China Sea ????
-China's National treasure that were looted to Western country???
-British did not issue all HK citizens British Citizenship???
Etc etc etc.
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
You a the vilest citiznen and repetitive like a lonely old git. Do you dare to bore the US with your shopping list of demand? Nobody will pay any attention to you there either. You must try to get a life or maybe a job or you will go crazy with your grievances.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago 2
Forgotten Holocaust
wow...Demonstration in HK !!!!
well HK should also Demonstrate on the following issues:
lastnoblegmail 2 years ago
The problem is not the so call communist party in China, but rather the Chinese Leaders in the communist party. Chinese leaders are notorious with having an imperial mentality where they rule the country and the rest of the people has to follow their orders regardless. Lets face it communism is dead. It died when the Soviet Union cease to exist. You can love China, but hate the CCP..... I am still waiting for the KMT to return.
theagent3 2 years ago
I have to point out that communist and communism are very different things given the lessons of our human history. Communism is an ideology which emphasize on equal share of economic welfare and political power of individuals. While most communist do not run that.
I think KMT has changed a lot, they are kissing chinese ass alot these days
EC306 2 years ago
these are people that yearn to have a voice in how their government is run...much like others whose voices are silenced by the guns of their governments...take care america that you do not become one of them...the first thing that fascist or communist governments do....is to take your guns....then your voice....then your freedom....then your life...God bless the chinese people that stand up against tyrany....and hope for a better future
yetitracker 2 years ago 3
those kids should not go on hunger strike, they look famished already
PhosChild 2 years ago
I am proud of being a hong kong born Chinese!!!
VIIV!!!!!!!!!!!
henryngan 2 years ago 7
Same here. And there are so many babies in the crowd. Why they weren't even eggs in 1989. Their parents are right in encouraging them not to forget about the truth of history.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Even though I support democratic movement in China...I don't think over-throwing gov. over night is going to solve anything except put the whole country into chaos and ending up like the post soviet-union Russia. I believe there are problems but freedom can be achieved with one party system. Just look at the past 30 years!
google2com 2 years ago
No one want to over throw the Chinese government overnight. The students and chinese people back in 1989 wanted the government to reform, NOT anti revolution, it was a peaceful protest but ended in violence by the gov.
eee4309 2 years ago 3
I think you should read the history book more carefully. The demand of the students are overly idealistic and impossible to achieve. Of course that doesn't make anything right...but Im saying that it's not easy for anyone.
google2com 2 years ago
History Book? ??? I really hope that they are recorded clearly in history book. Sadly they are not. Oh do you know that the Chinese governement do not allowed even the mention of number 6 and 4 in China? The students only want two things from the government, one they want the governement to correct their comment on a newsapaper article, second they want to talk to the government. I don't understand why these two requests are so hard??????
eee4309 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
i remember watching a documentary film about june 4th. one of the student leader said something like 'i want to have more time to take my girlfriend to bars'. that is just ridiculous.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
On the contrary, that is very important to have more time to take his honey out to bars. Why, one student leader even got married on Tiananmen Square, that god awful slab of concrete that does not even have a bench for people to sit on and not a single tree for shades. Those students and workers were peacefull, loveable, reasonable, idealistic and imaginative. They don't want the dead hand of a dictatorship over every facet of their lives. Bottoms up and be free!!
cabbagemintor 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
bottoms up and you will be enslaved. look at mainland workers now and migrated workers in hong kong. workers under your so called democratic society are in a worse condition than someone working for a state enterprise in China
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Surely there are someone in the better condition working for a state enterprise in China... better than you and me. I really don't understand how you get such an impression. The migrated workers you mentioned (like every hongkonger) are free to go back mainland if they want --but they choose to stay?
mediumwell06 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
if you can pay the migrated workers lower than others natives, why would you want them to go back? the democratic bourgeois wants them to stay. one way to do this is by saying they want (or we want them to want) freedom. doing so will allow a less restricted border. freedom does not mean but allowing greedy bosses to exploited both the migrated population and the HK working class.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
You digress. There are bourgeois who want them to stay (the boss?), there are bourgeois who want them to go (the "native toilet washers"?), and there are bourgeois who don't care. I don't see your logic of your conspiracy theroy.
mediumwell06 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
if you do it cheap, who want you to go? read carefully again.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Read my commet above and see that you are having this tunnel vision of "exploitatation" without addressing the legitimate aspriations of the migrant workers who choose to stay and fight for a better future. There is a large contigent of cheap labor here in the UK. Racists want to chase them out despite their "usefullness." So your logic is all over the place. Better working conditions and pay, yes, fight for the underpriviledged. Don't deny brace folks their own choice and a better tomorrow.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
you impose/assume an "economic man" mentality into these workers, without looking into the historical specificity of how and why they migrated. this is to ethno-racialized an entire population of laborers by saying they want to be exploited, and your point on social mobility is to justify an reproduction of this population of workers.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Of course, the second generation can move up, what about a shift in the underclass population? I didn't say it was to fight for better "pay." do so will commodify one's labor
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
SOEs and TVEs broke down during Deng's reform, creating a large laboring population. China didn't have the capital to mobilize this population but the HK bourgeois did. This triggered a huge internal migration to coastal cities. Deng's lower restriction and reform came as god sent to Korean, Japanese, Singapore, and Hong Kong petite bourgeois. Foreign investments came during the 70s and 80s, and intensified during the 90s, which led to a huge bubble and the 97/98 crisis.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
the 89 student movement should be viewed within such context. of course you have your liberal views on how the liberalization would create more jobs and create better conditions. no denials to that, but the protection that you see now in the U.S. and across the core states reflects the earlier liberal period. the student movement was a call to liberalize further.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
No crisis is as murderous of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution or the non-stop persecution and exploitation of poor ordinary Chinese people in China. And you wonder why EVERY Chinese want to escape to the west.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
"escape" only in a sense of a particular time period. Why there was no external migration during the mid Ching dynasty? The "crisis" you are speaking of need to be seen in a time period. the strict maoist control followed by Deng's liberal reform. they wanted marketization and get rid of the state's involvement within the market (hong kong bourgeois came in).
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
cont.
On the other hand, they need to secure a condition (laws, certain labor regulation) for such "free market" to operate. workers suffered under foreign capital (from HK and Japan particularly later US's transnational corporation). then of course "EVERY Chinese" wanted to escape. The "poison podwer and the tofu school" you mentioned need to be seen within the contemporary political/economic condition. you cannot put these historically specific events together and make a generalizing argument
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
cont.
the liberal reform kicked off in the 60s and strengthened during the 70s had restored class power. of course, some had "escaped" China and doing pretty well in HK through investments. the number of this bourgeois population is tiny. During the reform, the chinese central bank gave out loans (bad loans). the result was the constant state bail outs. the SOEs and the TVEs were in the hand of the corrupted state officials you mentioned. they transformed state money into their own assets
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
cont.
the state had a large working population. Deng's reform broke down these structures. to maintain a stabilized liberal structure, he had to build shit loads of air ports, high ways, and etc stated funded projects. this eventually reached a limit and you saw the internal/external migration inside and outside of China. The external migration to the U.S. had to do with their lack of cheap labor sources corresponded with the deregulation period.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
cont.
Both China and U.S. responded to each other's liberalization. China had the the labor sources and U.S. needed them (also the Hong Kong bourgeois initially). I don't know what your definition for "corruption" is. If the "tofu school" you mentioned is one example, there are tofu schools in Hong Kong or the U.S. as well, in qualitative terms (ranking, etc). depicting "tofu school" as a special mainland Chinese product is not fair to the people. it is racist as well.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Commie bastards are not Chinese because they sell out their own people and poison their own citizens. They are anti-Chinese. You are a racist too if you think that Chinese children deserve to be buried by tofu school buildings. You are in the west, the least you can do is to fight for the oppressed and suffering people of China. But instead you turn something so beautiful and noble as the Hong Kong vigil into something to condemn and belittle. Where is your humanity? You English is rubbish.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
I suppose that beats the red prince and princesses who spend money like water in the UK and the US and everywhere; those ill-gotten gains that resulted from colluding with murderous people who poison baby powder and build tofu school buildings. The total collapse of morality and conscience on top will finish China off. In Hong Kong, my dad has power over construction. He would NEVER harm people in order to make money for himself or his children. I wash dishes to put myself thru university.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
taking away surplus values from workers is harm and violence. again, whatever happened before/during cultural revolution and other movements needed to be situated within a larger historical economic/political context. "Some want aritistic and intellectural freedom. Others have dreams to conquer the world." this is precisely the "economic man" mentality, and it is also your underlying assumption within all your arguments.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
i don't see arguing with you will go anywhere. you can retreat to your own subjective bourgeois family example to argue against the objective violence that liberals have done to the masses, the day will go on, workers (women workers, child laborers, unpaid laborers, and the ethno-racialized population in general) are still being exploited in one way or other. you and your family can enjoy your bourgeois life styles while a large population of people are still sweating to serve your lifestyle.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
You are the one doing the exploiting, doing no work and living on welfare. You don't understand the meaning of hard work and ambition. Violence is done by the commie bastards who murdered 70 million Chinese people. Viiolence to done to ordinary Chinese who are perseucated, starved, spied on and intimidated if they dare to complain about tofu school buildings and poisionous baby powder. Yes, you cannot argue with me because you are a product and stooge of the commies who hide in the west.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
"Violence is done by the commie bastards who murdered 70 million Chinese people" - Capitalists are killing people EVERYDAY, through exploitation, privatization of health care, water, land, money, and labor power. Not to mention externalities you motherfuckers create. I don't know why you keep going back to the tofu school example. such events have to be placed in a historical context, which you don'
t.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Why are you hiding in the west then? Using money gotten by your corrupt parents? Money stone from the poor ordinary people of China? You are a waster hiding in the west, doing nothing. People in Hong Kong are staying there, working there, fighting for a better China. You are the lowest of the low. A scumbag. How many people have your parents killed?
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
haha, well I guess you associate me with socialists now? I am sure HK people are fighting really hard. I am sure there maybe HK organizers who shared different visions than people who went on june 4 march. You don't mention them? why? I had already defended myself on why people migrate, why people fight back, why communists failed, and pointed out that you have been making argument with assumptions. I don't need to repeat them. You can attack me personally, but that won't get you anywhere.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
A human being must have morality, conscience, ethics and shame as fondation before you can even say anything. I have run across people like you in the past from communist China. They seem to have no shame, no human feeling except to grab what they can for themselves. For you to criticize Hong Kong people taking part in a vigil is like a serial killer criticizing Joan of Arc. You belong in prison if there is any justice but you will burn in hell for your utter depravity. Where do you get your $?
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
yes of course, "morality, conscience, ethics and shame as fondation before you can even say anything." But you have never questioned where these categories come from. I argued in the previous responses that they had to do with world historical development, politically and economically. "human feeling" - please define this! You called for freedom, and I argued freedom led to exploitation, which is not free at all to the workers. You ignored that again!
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
How exactly do you intend to earn a living then? You eithe start a business, be employed by someone, go into government. Not everybody can be like you: stealing money from Chinese people to hide in the west, living as an illegal forever. Who will explain love and ethics and morality to you? Why, we learn it at our mothers' knee. But your mother is a whore.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
No, historically speaking people tend to help each other. it is a recent belief that people should live on their own feet. Liberal economic historians tend to selectively look at parts of the history and ignored other social structures that were co-existed with the market. Your assumptions of me are false and I have no needs to defend your racist attacks. I think other people who have been reading your comments know that.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
"criticize Hong Kong people" - No, I had only criticized the ones who had liberal bourgeois democratic demands. I had already explained what I meant by that in earlier responses. Exploitations/commodification of laborers and their labor power went hand in hand with democratization in the 19th century. Again, this is in my earlier responses to you.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
"You belong in prison" - why there is prison to begin with had to do with the neoliberal reform in the 70s. Blacks were criminalized and exploited in US state prison. The same criminalization happened when Deng saw an larger rural labor power in urban areas. He took advantage of it. Put it in simple terms, prison equals to cheap labor to out compete small business, creating good conditions for monopolies.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Workers' demands were never represented in the June 4th event. In fact, many rural workers who were there side by side with these bourgeois student supported them, and they helped them to coordinated the events (i.e. distributed foods, clean up and etc). What they wanted were very different from your heroes' bourgeois freedom demands (more time for girl friends, more time to hand out, more freedom to for bourgeois entertainments). They were simply asking for more exploitation of these workers
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
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kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
That is right, Chinese people are not human beings in the eyes of people like you. They are there for you to exploit, murder, persecute and spied on. It is hard for you, I know, to have grown up thinking like that to accept any different version of life. You illegal bastard.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
well, you don't need to be angry. I am trying to point out to you that the demands during the June 4th movements were nothing new. The concepts of "human" and the declaration of human rights were bourgeois concepts. Some people were simply not considered as human. I really do want you to understand that, even when you disagree with my other points. I treated your responses sincerely without any personal attack. I hope you can do the same.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
You are an illegal hilding in the US. I am going to get iimmigration to track you down. Everything I argue is based on facts and profound knowledge. You use empty phrases, brush every evil under the carpet and try to "hide the sun with one hand." You are jeaous of Hong Kong people because they act like human beings and they have their own country and they will fight for a better China. I don't think you are a socialist or anything. You use your corrupt parents' money to hide in the west.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
"Everything I argue is based on facts and profound knowledge" - What is profound for you? None of your comments are historically correct. You have had assumptions about the "goodness" of such terms like freedom, human, and democracy. None of your responses referred back to historical evidence.
"better China." - You never define what is better. What is free and liberal is good for you. I have already explained the impacts of liberal reforms, please read my comments carefully
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Chinese communists kill Chinese people. Americans, British, Spanish etc only kill foreigners. That is the difference. The parents of the children buried under tofu schools want corrupt governement officials and greedy contruction companies to be punished. Don't you keep saying that you are on the side of the oppressed. Oh, yes, if it is not in your interest, you want to put it in a "historical context." I suppose all the people your parents kill and you want to kill will be put in that "context"
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Well, you never explained what you mean by helping the poor and keep making generalized ahistorical arguments. I was trying to put June 4th in a situation that is different from your liberal views. You have been putting words in my mouth. Things i have never wrote in my responses. "people your parents kill and you want to kill" - capitalists are killing people everyday. of course corrupted officials killed too, but liberals who share your views killed way more people historically speaking.
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago
Dreams have many diimensions. It could be about morality, ethics, love, friendship. In a free country, you are more free to pursue those human aspirations. It is the communist bastards who reduce everthing to class struggle and economics. Yet Marxists etc never can asnswer the question: when all the "landlords" and "explioters" are murdered, who is supposed to be on top and are we to trust them not to turn exploiters themselves? Of course not, the commuies are every bit as greedy and evil.
cabbagemintor 2 years ago
Well, you are free to find a job, and the bosses are free to exploit you. The bottom layer will serve the exploited and the bosses at the same time. For the first, it is to lower the means of subsistence. For the latter, it creates competition between segments of workers and pit them against each other
"Yet Marxists etc never can asnswer the question: when all the "landlords" and "explioters" are murdered, who is supposed to be on top and are we to trust them not to turn exploiters themselves?"
kantimmanuel05 2 years ago