@741rjohnson The man himself makes the decisions; they are influenced somewhat by external forces but are made by the man or woman who is the free moral agent held responsible by God, to exactly the extent that it is true, no more, no less.
The logic of universalism:If God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian Theology; 1Timothy2:3-4)and he has the power to accomplish his desires(Calvinist Theology;Isaiah55:11)then he will save everyone. Obviously the Church doesn't agree with this,but I hope you see the logic in it. One thing the Church should consider is this--The combination of the two theologies gets you universalism plain and simple.
@741rjohnson Except of course that both theologies teach judgment and eternal Hell for them that don't believe. Besides, one has to accept the Calvinist notion that God will force people to be saved, which I for one, based on very Biblical grounds, completely reject. God gave man the free will to choose life or death. The Bible is very clear about that.
@preacherman777God does not{force men}to himself.He will{draw all men}to himself through his Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross(John12:32).Once man has been delivered from his bondage to corruption,everyone will willingly choose God(Romans8:21-22Isaiah45:23;Philippians2:10-11).Did God force you to repent?No.Did you make a decision to repent?Yes.But what{lead}you to make that decision? It was God's goodness(Romans2:4).He will do the same for everyone(1Cor15:22-23)
@741rjohnson You are practicing a theological no no, which we like to call reductionism in order to try and establish your theology. You're upholding certain scriptures outside of their proper context and understanding to use against other scriptures that clearly teach an opposing doctrine. Namely the fact there will be people who are condemned eternally. I know the Bible way to well, for you to convince me ignore the parts of it that don't fit your belief system.
@preacherman777 You are correct. We should always use scriptures in their proper context.But it isn't about context, it's about interpretation.Take for instance 1Timothy2:3-4;Isaiah55:11,and Matthew25:46. Each theological system whether it be Arminian,Calvinist or Universalist will interpret these scriptures and any scripture according to their belief system. And let me be clear:although I may disagree with your comments,they are thought provoking and logical. God Bless.
@741rjohnson Well, then, let's agree to disagree. If you are convinced by your beliefs, I'm ok with that and if I am convinced by mine, I hope you can be ok with that. Besides, if your beliefs are true, then I have nothing to worry about if I am wrong now do I?
@preacherman777 We can sometimes be quite proud (in our own evaluation) of our submission to the Word of God.
This is not a veiled attempt to suggest and I'm not suggesting that you're proud. I'm simply saying that I think your argument against pride (because of submission to God's Word) is entirely illegitimate.
I've seen in myself and others quite a bit of pride in spiritual matters. Unfortunately, we all have difficulty seeing our own pride and I've seen extreme spiritual pride before.
@741rjohnson Yes, I do believe it's heretical. The reason would be that there so much in the scriptures that speaks against the idea. I know there are some who have tried to make arguments for it for scripture, but it required some pretty creative hermeneutics, which I don't think stand up under scrutiny.
@preacherman777 I'm just trying to understand why the Calvinist and the Arminians believe that Christian Universalism is heretical.Here's my point:Point A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminianism);Point B-God is Sovereign,therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinism/Reformed Theology).If Point A is a true biblical statement and Point B is a true biblical statement,why is it considered heretical for the Universalist to believe in both these true statements?
@741rjohnson Because the Bible also teaches judgment and eternal Hell for them that don't believe. And let's be clear, God desires all to be saved, but his its His purposes that will be accomplished. Jesus grieved over the Israelists who would not come to him. He wanted them to, but they would not. The free will of man within the framework of God's plan is expressed throughout the Bible. The Universalist is not unlike the Calvinist in that he removes the free will of man.
@preacherman777 The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies.The tragedy is both the Calvinist and the Arminians adhere to Augustine's theory of judgment(eternal punishment).They are forced to reject or explain away the glorious side of each other's theology.But if they embraced each other's theology there would be nothing to reject or explain away.They could then harmonize the scriptures of judgment and mercy for all and unite the body of Christ.Thanks for the comments.
1st, Calvinism & Arminianism are totally opposite belief systems & can't be reconciled with each other - they can't both be "beautiful theologies" when one (Calvinism) is completely false. 2nd, God's judgment against unrpentant sinners is one of the most fundamental doctrines found in the bible, The wages of sin is death - those destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Rev21:8) won't be returning, it's the 2nd death. 3rd, you're welcome - repent & accept the truth.
@JackMWolfe "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".1Cor15:26 If eternal death is true then death claims a huge victory over millions possibly billions of people in the lake of fire.1Cor15:26 ceases to have any meaning.How can death be eternal if death is destroyed(abolished) by Christ(2Tim1:10;1Cor15:26).Jesus Christ destroys(abolishes)death by making everyone alive(1Cor15:22-23).And the bible makes it plain that the 2nd is not another death:The second death is the lake of fire.
@rjohnson Fallacious arguments The reality is that death came into the world thru Adam's transgression & although God supplies a remedy thru Christ, only those who avail themselves of it by choosing to repent & accept Him will be raised to eternal life. Those who refuse will only be raised for final judgment & then face their final & permanent destruction. They CHOSE death over life & God honors their decision - He doesnn't force anyone to have a relationship with Himself they don't want.
@JackMWolfe You're not using scripture to back up your comments.You can't because eternal death and free will are not biblical doctrines: Free will--The power of{directing our actions}without influence; God's Will--"A man's heart deviseth his way:but the Lord{directs his steps}."Proverbs16:9. We have the ability to make choices,but choices are influenced by circumstances beyond our control. Peter didn't want to deny Jesus but something influenced his will---The Roman Legions.
@rjohnson 1st, I've given you scriptures but you reject them for your fantasy. 2nd, biblical free will doesn't proclaim man is autonomous but that he can make choices between right & wrong when God calls him 3rd, Pr16:9 says God "directs" man's steps not "forces" them. 4th, Peter's denial was based on his unrepentant rebellion against Christ's intention of going to the cross (Mt16:22) - the circumstances just exposed it. 5th, your false gospel is condemned with an eternal curse by Gal1:7-9
@JackMWolfe you're proving my point.The biblical definition of man's will says that man's will is not autonomous(free),but directed by God(Pr16:9).The arminian definition of man's will says that man's will is free from any direction, or influence.The arminian definition of man's will contradicts the biblical definition of man's will. The arminian definition of free will is a contradiction in terms. Restrictive free will is like square circles.
@rjohnson Ridiculous, ignorant comments. 1st, Arminians acknowledge man's free will has a lot of restrictions - man can't flap his arms & fly whenever he wants & it's influenced in many directions - but man still has the capacity to choose between right & wrong, otherwise there's no basis for God to judge them. 2nd, AGAIN: being "directed" by God does NOT mean being FORCED by God. 3rd, your problem is you have a fixed agenda & you have no intention to let the truth or reality get in the way.
@JackMWolfe How can man's will be free and restricted at the same time.Free and restricted have opposite meanings.Man's will can't be both.You're not using common sense.Man has the ability to make choices but those choices are influenced and caused by internal and external forces therefore not free.
@rjohnson More gibberish. If someone wants to travel to Europe from the US they have the freedom to choose between flying or sailing but they don't have the freedom to walk - man's free will decisions are always limited or restricted by many factors. Your arguments aren't just juvenile, they're asinine - but that's what these false doctrines do to their adherents, makes bufoons out of them. I don't have time for your delusions - God has no delight in witless fools & neither do I.
That is not true when Moses asked God to show me your glory while His Spirit passed by God declared His Virtue My goodness, mercy etc. God told Moses My glory is My essence . My self existing Life is My perpetual unsuspended Virtue.The video you showed is dis ingenuous by your comments if God revealed Himself a certain way I cannot treat Him different.Christ in the burning bush declared I Am that I Am not eternal, perpetual.All free will is self righteous having original good nature
@polopowers1 The fault lies in the conclusion you draw. You are attempting to box God into an assumption you are making as if you, a finite person can fully understand God. This is why the truth between sovereign choice and human responsibility is a mystery not unlike the Trinity in the sense that it is beyond our ability to define. The Bible teaches both God's choice and man's choice and somehow the two work together in savlation. Denying that is reductionism.
@preacherman777 How can God be free if man can has power or knowledge not His own.It is you who box God in. My God is free not held by man's will to infringe by personal choice.God is free because there is no will that has independent virtue or power. How can anyone not realize free will is self righteous. Declaring will before choosing has virtue innate to choose. Not to mention will having power innate but where does it come from ? Man.? Does everyone have equal power equal virtue to choose.?
@polopowers1 You spend too much time choosing to think your own thoughts instead of submitting to the Spirit of God. Preacherman777 tried to bring you back to the Bible but you just want to use the Bible as a springboard to elaborate on spurious, specious and unscriptural verbiage. You clearly don't value God's Word the way you *should*. I strongly recommend that you divest yourself of your opinions and learn to abide in the Word and ask God to minister to you by His Spirit, who EXALTS the Word.
@polopowers1 You are obviously not paying attention to what I have said. Free will comes from God and exists on His terms. Go back and re-read my previous comments. Man cannot have free will independant of God for he is created by God, but the Word of God shows us that free will has indeed been given to man and the refusal to accept that, as I stated, is to practice reductionism with the scriptures since it's so obvious. Don't deny the sciptures for the sake of your doctrine.
@preacherman777 You are obviously not paying attention>? You mean I obviously dis agree with your saying I'm in some reductionism theory. Not so, I believe God has ordained all things though it appears I have choice. And because it appears that way I pray to accept all God has ordained.You pray with hope of changing a will or choices in people in order to to be like God's.All free will believes God can be marred His glory can be stepped upon, impossible.God is never in suspense of anothers will.
@preacherman777 Please don't think I'm desiring to be adversarial for I'm not. But I think that as Believers, we have a loyalty to God's Word even beyond our understanding.
"Free will comes from God and exists on His terms."
Would you like to defend those two points with Scripture? I think you're obligated to do so. I find "free will" to be a "manufactured" truth. It rationally appears obvious, so people pretend it's "truth," yet I find no scriptural support for it.
What is denied is the Nature of God. Which came first God's Spirit or God's Virtue.? His goodness, truth, love, mercy, or attribute of knowledge or power.They are simultaneous of course You cannot say God's Spirit was first and His Virtue came later. What makes God perpetual self existing life.? Answer; His Spirit substance, and Virtue.His Substance Spirit and Virtue are His perpetual self existing life. Free will must suspend a virtue of God's Life in order to exist, which is impossible.
@polopowers1 First of all, your argument has nothing to do with scripture and is based solely on philosophical reasoning, which basically boils down to eisegesis. Second, man has a free will because God, in his sovereignty gives him one. God can do that if he wants to and obviously he did. This is what the scriptures actually do show us.
@torvasal We already know from God's word & what Christ said in Jn17:3 what will happen to you. "This is eternal life: to know You, the only true & real God & Jesus the Christ, Whom You have sent." You instead follow a counterfeit god & Christ - a Bad Shepherd who comes to save a few arrogant sheep & kicks the rest of the flock off the nearest cliff. Your "gospel" (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) is just BAD NEWS, & cursed by Gal1:7-9 - & so are those who promote it.
@torvasal Save your hypocritical sermons for yourself. You're the one who's been shown to be ignorant of God's word & if you don't repent of your apostasy & rebellion you'll be destroyed by it. Calvinists promote a false gospel, blaspheme God by accusing Him of creating helpless people solely to cast them into hell, change, manipulate, & add to God's word, cause division in the Body, cause others to stumble, & falsley accuse their detractors - these are all DEATH PENALTY offenses.
@torvasal Lunacy.1st, Acts7:51 is a reference to resisting the gospel which is the means the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. The only one you "got" was YOURSELF - & you resist the Holy Spirit just like they did. 2nd, the raising of Lazarus doesn't support your abominations. Resurrection is by decree & will happen to ALL people but salvation is a GIFT not by decree - it can be rejected. Whether someone takes part in the 1st or the 2nd resurrection depends on whether they accept Christ or not.
@torvasal 1st, resisting God's drawing is seen in Acts7:51 "You stubborn & stiff-necked people..you're always actively resisting the Holy Spirit" & Lk7:30 "the Pharisees rejected God's purpose concerning themselves" 2nd, the ENTIRE 1st generation of Israelites lost their salvation & Paul uses it to warn NT believers in 1Cor10 & Heb3&4 the same will happen to them if also guilty of disobedience & unbelief. 3rd, Lazarus typifies resurrection NOT salvation - ALL are resurrected, not all are saved.
@torvasal 3rd, Deut30:11 clearly says they CAN obey God's commandments & Paul affirms this in Rom10 for NT believers by quoting it. 4th, the Ninevites weren't regenerated before believing God's message & choosing to repent. Fallen man has no trouble whatsoever understanding that if they don't turn from their sins then God will destroy them - the message doesn't require any great spiritual insight to understand. Those who choose to obey it will then be regenerated in Christ.
@torvasal You're all over the map.1st, like all God's promises & covenants Jer31:18-19 is conditional & based on faith & obedience eg, in Ex6:6-8 God also promised to bring the 1st generation of Israelites into the Promised Land, but instead they all died in the desert because of disobedience & unbelief. 2nd, Jn15:16 merely says what's already been stated - salvation is based on God choosing & calling man, but that doesn't negate the fact that man must also choose to accept & obey His call.
@torvasal You're wrong. 1st, man can't save himself. He cannot & will not come to God on his own - God must intervene by convicting him of his sin & need for a Savior & calls him to repentance - those who CHOOSE to obey His call are then regenerated in Christ. 2nd, read the next verse in Josh24 - they can't "IFyou forsake the Lord & serve strange gods THEN He will turn & do you harm..(vs20). 3rd, God allows no one to be tempted beyond their ability to resist. 4th, read Deut30:11 - man CAN obey.
@torvasal What else but your own free will explains how your posts got on this video? Did some mysterious force make you type them out? Do you think they were foreordained to be written from the foundation of the world - did God directly inspire them? Do you have a choice to respond to my post or not? Will whatever you decide be God's will? How DO you come up with the idea that there's no such thing as free will - it's all around you & you use it yourself hundreds of times daily!
@JackMWolfe I agree. For some, their understanding of it is within the Gospel, but for others, it is another Gospel. If I believe that I am saved by something that happened in eternity past, and that believing was just going through the motions God demands, where is the actual good news for anyone, myself included? I might as well have "slept in."
@mcfirefly3 I have wrestled with this issue for many years. Deep down I want to call it heresy, but I can't ignore the agreement that exists on those fundamentals and the genuine love for Christ and the Word of God that I have seen in many of my Calvinist friends. I'm not willing to set myself up as their judge. I speak the truth of the whole Word of God to them, but I will leave judgement on such matters to God.
Having said that, I also really don't think that most Calvinists realize what an insult to God Calvinism really is. I think for most they see it as the only way to really give all glory to God, but what they forget is that you can't glorify God by human reasoning, you must glorify God within the confines of the system he designed and revealed in His Word, whether you like it or not.
These people want to tell everyone that God doesn't love everyone, that God doesn't want to save everyone, in fact, is glorified by making people he deliberately withholds grace from just to send them to hell "to his glory." And the nature of the God who saves is not irrelevant to the Gospel.
See, God looks at the heart. If what Calvinists mean in their hearts by the words of the Gospel is what the Spirit of God intends, then the "small" variations are truly small and din't matter in their case. Meanwhile, rockribbed (!) Clalvinism as an orthodox position works to keep people thinking church membership is the mark of election and salvation,and by its nature blicks the truth of God from those who don't want a God who doesn't love everyone.
Those words that you say that they agree on mean radically different things to them. I don't call myself an Arminian but I cannot see how, if I believe it is anathema to say that I could choose to believe, that that doen't imply another gospel. It isn't about promoting controversy; it's about the good news, itself..
There are people who have called themselves Calvinists for various reasons who are no doubt believing Christians, Dr McGee and Spurgeon for example. But true Calvinist, monergists, are extreme. The implications of TULIP are very damaging. It lies about God.
They say that the elect receive "Irresistable Grace" and so are saved against their will, and "prevenient grace" which means God brings with conviction the grace to obey, is despised. But how can believing that I have no choice not be another Gospel? It sure is not good news.
@mcfirefly "But how can believing that I have no choice not be another Gospel? It sure is not good news"
Calvinism does have a different gospel - "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you" & blasphemes God with their "salvation by force" heresy. Salvation is a gift, God neither forces Himself on anyone & certainly doesn't deny salvation to anyone as they claim. They have a different gospel, a different "god", change dozens of verses & evade hundreds more to promote their aberrations.
You hate the controversy, but it really is not something to be apathetic about, either. The Calvinists I've been reading and responding to on a forum despise "prevenient grace," meaning that the Holy Spirit convicts and then you have a choice of whether to receive salvation or not.
The Synod Of Dort declared the Remonstrants, the Arminians to be heretics. There has never been a synod since to declare otherwise. Calvinists are Monergists and Arminians are Synergists. Someone has to be wrong. If the Church as Ephesians 3, says is the mystery that the mind of God is known then which of these thoughts is from the mind of God?
@mindlessnirvanaa Well, I would tend to agree with you that one is truth (or at least closer to truth) and one is not. I know what the Synod of Dort did, but that was an act of man that I think holds little meaning to any but the most extreme Calvinists. The fact is, Calvinists and Arminians both agree on the fundamentals of the faith so really neither side has any business condemning the other as a heretic. That is my point and I think most on both sides know that.
@preacherman777 I choose not to argue with anyone. In the context that one is closer to the truth then there must be a truth. If Dort was a synod of men then one has to trace the elements of both, ie Calvinism and Armenianism as acts of men. This brings into question the ever fallible men making fallible doctrines that does not emanate from The Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, through which the mind of God is known as Paul says. This is true.
I am a 5 point Calvinist and I want to thank you for being respectful when discussing this. I noticed a lot of hostility towards Calvinists like myself, and sometimes towards Arminianists.
@StopFear Calvinists falsely accuse God of creating helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to "glorify himself" - that He sends out FAKE calls of repentance to some, withholds the ability for them to respond, & then destroys them for disobeying! Wouldn't you ALSO take offense at someone depicting your father as a liar & murderer? Calvinists are like the family dog who's dug up some dead remains in the backyard & wonders why no one will let him back in the house!
No no no! It's *Trollvanism* (Calvanism) in other words you keep SPAM SPAMing the other side until they repent to your way of thinking. THEN they start "trolling"
One thing I must add. I do have to disagree with those who teach that one can loose ones salvation, this is one subject that the bible is overwhelmingly clear on. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Those who teach otherwise may still be saved (as Wesley surely was). But I do believe that teaching is clearly contrary to Scripture.
@Koonethboy I'm afraid I would have to argue that the Bible is overwhelmingly clear that eternal security is in fact conditional upon our remaining in Christ, not by our works, but by faith.
Amen brother!!! Interesting historical fact, Arminius actually considered himself a Calvinist. A calm rational discussion with sound biblical teaching, a rarity today. I believe the most important thing is that we remember that salvation is God's work, not man's. Calvin understood this as did Wesley.
@preacherman777 I would like to hear what scriptures you would point to, I have studied this, as best as I am able from an unbiased perspective (I was not raised in a church, so that actually helps in this situation), and I just don't see it. I keep being drawn to Galatians 3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" How can I maintain or loose, what God has wrought?
@Koonethboy You (and Galatians) are talking about being justified and retained by works. That's not what I am talking about. Here's a few scriptures to get you started, but there are many more if you study the whole counsel of God with an open mind. Colossians 1:21-23, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1 Timothy 4:13-16, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-29, James 1:12, James 5:19-20, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:16-17 (this one will be especially important for you to read)
@roaring Don't waste your time, lasvegastroll is a phony - a notorious troll & predator with many sock accounts such as lasvegasdaril & rebeccagillespie, sometimes using his real name Daril Lev. He's been thrown out of churches in Vegas such as New Community Church for falsely posting on YouTube that he was the youth pastor there & from Fellowship Christian, accused by the pastor of pedophilia, & see the vile racial slurs he posts on videos such as "Is this racist? Song of the South clip" Avoid!
@JackMWolfe... why call it "the Doctrines of Grace" when Calvinism teaches the Doctrines of DAMNATION? that the vast majority are created in the womb DEAD, and purposely manufactured DEFECTIVE created in the image of Satan lacking ALL ability to repent or beg for MERCY BEFORE having done anything either good or bad from the moment of conception-- the truth is, there is NO GRACE, just an INJUST selection of individuals for DAMNATION by a Cold-Hearted Fatalistic Cosmic Tyrant
It's all part of Calvinism's deceptive doublespeak - even Calvinists are repulsed by their own doctrines & spend most of their time putting lipstick on the filthy pig they've embraced. It's a doctrine of demons that's diametrically opposed to the real gospel & blasphemes the true God of the bible.
One thing I would disagree with in the video is that you say both sides believed that we are saved by grace. On the Arminian wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they believe in works based salvation since they believe in freewill. I used to have the Arminian view towards Christianity but what I see from it is now is people giving glory to man instead of God and what is worse is that they reject scriptures about God being in control. Arminians just dont seem to know the Bible very well
@Risen1s Well, and I could say that Calvinists often seem arrogant, but neither generalization does the situation any good. The fact is, if you know your Bible, you'll find that it speaks both of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility when it comes to salvation. The whole truth of exactly how that works is really a mystery, but the fact remains that both are taught. Regardless, it's all about God's grace and Arminians do not teach works based salvation. Thinking they do is shortsighted.
@preacherman777 I thought that Arminians reject the doctrines of Grace? all arminians I have encountered reject any Biblical teachings of Grace and always resort to their free will choice. I don't see how that would not be considered works based beliefs since they give glory to man instead of God.
@Risen 1st, Arminians reject Calvinism's condemned, limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which has nothing to do with any "grace" in the bible - it's a "gospel" that's just Bad News for the great majority of mankind. 2nd, Arminians don't believe that man saves himself - a drowning man who reaches out to grasp a lifeline doesn't walk away boasting how he saved himself by his free will. That's a ludicrous misrepresentation - ALL the glory goes to God, none to man.
@Risen1s Well then, you've been talking to people who don't understand Arminianism. They reject the "doctrines of grace" as defined by Calvinists, but they in no way reject grace. They affirm that man is dead in sin and unable to save himself, they affirm that man can only come to faith by aid of the Holy Spirit and they affirm that man is saved by grace through faith and not by any works that he may do. But, they do not affirm that faith is a work or that man plays no role in coming to faith.
I do have one question. When you're speaking of Paul and agreeing in the Lord, how should I react when I read that Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement? I agree that we should be one unified body of Christ because it's Biblical. But how do we know when it's okay to have a disagreement?
@musicianactor22 It's always ok to have disagreements and we can discuss and debate, there's nothing wrong with that. The issue is whether or not to divide over things. When we agree in Christ, we agree on the fundamentals of the faith and base our unity on the fact that we can agree on those fundamentals. Calvinism or Arminianism is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. You can believe either and still be within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.
Thank you for this video. I'm really on the fence between the two theologies because I've always believed that certain attributes for both sides are definitely true. But I agree with you 100% that this is not that relevant of an issue as we are not to lean on our own understanding. It's a shame that these things have caused such division in the church.
You're right, Calvinists and Arminians agree on far more than we disagree. But the debate between the two groups has been going on since the time of Christ. Both sides believe the other side demeans God. Calvinists also get tired of hearing Arminians say that Calvinists worship John Calvin, while they worship Christ, but nothing could be further from the truth. Both sides can quote scripture to supposedly support their side, but the real question is this: What did Jesus say?
@DougCameraMan Jesus said, "All that the Father gives to me shall come to me". Jesus said: "You have not chosen me, I have chosen you". Jesus said: "I give my life a ransom for many". "I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life for my sheep". When speaking to disbelievers, He said "You cannot hear me because you are children of the Devil, and it is his will that you do". Jesus clearly had no problem distinguishing between his sheep that he was going to save... and all others.
@Natester27 But you would agree that not all men are saved, right? so then if not all men are saved, but yet God "isn't willing that any should perish" then something is out of whack. On one hand we k now that there are people going to Hell, unsaved, but God apparently is unable to save them even though it is his will that they be saved? That must be the only thing in the universe that God can't do ... save all men if that is his desire and will.
@DougCameraMan you are right, therefore predestination is false, if he wants all men to be saved, and those who are saved are predestined, Then the concept of predestination is false, think about it....God cant make us choose, Rom 1 says all me can see God in creation & are with out excuse.
For those whom He Foreknew, He predestinded[to be conformed to the image of his Son] Not salvation. , God had a preset plan for those who would choose Him. If I am not chosen why do I have a desire for God?
@Natester27 or maybe what is meant by "God isn't willing that any should perish" means that God isn't willing that any of the chosen ones given to Christ should perish. Jesus said this when he said that he would not lose any that the Father has given to him. He never said he was saving Judas Iscariot, or Herod, or Pilote. Not "all" are saved because it is not God's will that all be saved. If it was, then all would be saved.
@DougCameraMan , God isnt willing that any should persish right? Well, if they are predestined, then THEY WONT. Think about it, It makes sense. 1 John 2:2 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
John Calvin was a murderer, by their fruits ye shall know them
@Natester27 Yes, and the predestined elect wont perish. "Whole world" does not mean every person who has ever lived, or even every person in the world at that time. If it did, it would contradict far more scripture that is perfectly clear that not all are saved, and that Jesus has his sheep, and that not all people are his sheep. "Whole world" means all of the saints in all generations who have been chosen by the Father, and saved by the Son. No more, no less.
@DougCameraMan 1 Peter 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve
Jesus died for all, Heb 2:9, it is up to them to accept it. What you are saying is the God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell. If that is the case and we are all predestined, why are you or any other calvinist making videos or even preaching the word?
@DougCameraMan Are you telling me that I am not Saved because I dont believe what a murderer like John Calvin taught. Not to boast, but I read the Bible every day, pray to God, listen to Christian radio, love to hear sermons, it is food for the soul. Now according to a Calvinist I met earlier, God does not love me and even HATES me and there is nothing I can do about it. Now, I ask my you, what is making me love God then? Jesus said I stand at the door and knock,
@DougCameraMan Take these two statements side by side, "God desires ALL men to be saved."
" All who are saved are predestined to be." Now, if both of those statements were true, then everyone would be saved, but not all men are saved, so, one of them is false. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHICH ONE IS FALSE? Don't add any commentary, any other verses, or any opinion, just tell me which statement is false.
@Natester27 Neither verse is false. I'd suggest you do a Google search of the verse: 'God is not willing that any should perish". you will then be able to click on any number of explanations to what might appear to be a conflict. to put it simple, even the most influential and powerful man may not do everything he desires as reason and purpose may carry more weight than just desire alone. Google it for some interesting explanations.
@DougCameraMan That wasnt the verse I gave, it was God desires all men to be saved, and why google it? I can read the Bible. Calvinism teaches a lot of things, one is that no man can come to God of his own will, and another is you have to accept that you are predestined. But, then explain arminians by the way I am a Christian, not arminian, Or explain any other denomination that believes in free will, how are they believing then? But really, really though, I dont wish to argue anymore, God Bless
@theembracedofgod "The five points of Calvinism was a response to the five points Arminianism which were attacking a biblical view of how sovereign God is"
Historical revisionism - Arminianism is a response to John Calvin's heresy which didn't exist until he systemized it in the 1500's. Arminius was just the first to refute & expose it as a false gospel. Calvinism is composed ENTIRELY of manipulated prooftexts & changing or ignoring the dozens, even hundreds, of verses that contradict it.
@JackMWolfe I think you need to hit the books my friend because you are incorrect on your dating. The five points of Calvinism didn't exist when Mr Calvin was walking around.
I've read some of your resent comments to others and have i yet to find one subject you are willing to prove. yes you give out scripture but we also give out scripture- I pray that you'll find the joy of the Lord that He is God and we aren't.
@embraced 1st, take your own advice & you'll find that Calvin published his Instituttes in 1536, they're summarized by the acronym TULIP or "the 5 points" & Arminius & the Remonstrants opposed his teachings as unbiblical - that's basic history. 2nd, the scriptures I just cited directly refute Calvinism - Lk7:30, Acts7:51, 1Cor10, Heb3&4 and there are hundreds more 3rd, Calvinism uses prooftexts they've ripped from the bible & twisted - they've all been proven to be just Satanic manipulations.
No, I'm sorry if this offends you but you are just an error about your facts. Calvin died in 1564 while having published his institutes of the christian religion in 1536 which by the way has no where the teachings of "5 points of calvinism". What is amazing to me is that you don't acknowledge the debate going back to Augustine and Pelagius's debate about original sin and other "calvinist" concepts. seems that you just hate calvin and wanting to blow some cultic steam.
@embraced Are you saying that TULIP or the "5 points" don't summarize Calvin's Institutes? And the fact that some of his heresies were held previously by others is totally irrelevant, Calvin was the first to put them into a systematic belief system. Next time, try to have a point. I noticed you didn't deal with any scriptures I cited - just the phrase in Lk7:30 "they rejected God's will for themselves" totally refutes Calvinism, which instead claims God's will can NEVER be set aside by man.
@JackMWolfe -- just a "FYI" which you probably already know, but shortening anyone's user name means they won't get notification of your message to them and will have to initiate the search for your comment. Notification is very convenient to all how roam YouTube and don't daily "squat" on just a few videos.
I believe in all the Gospel. Not just pick a part here or pick a part there only to fit my own religion. You either reject all of Gods word or accept all of Gods word. I will not make Christ a pauper and say he is a God of love only. Christ Jesus' office is of Prophet, Priest and King of all mankind and those who reject Him he will cast into the Lake of Fire.
@Surfxeo I haven't read any of your other remarks and therefore don't know what, if any, point you're trying to support or make beyond those simple words, but standing alone, they sound very good to me, and that's why I gave them a "thumbs up." :-)
@Surfxeo ... in fact, your point is one which far more people seem to need to understand. So many fail to grasp that the Word of God is just as multifaceted as all of life and narrow focuses invariably lead to error and deception. We have a great God and life demonstrates to us that the more we focus on any issue, the more we learn and understand about *that issue*, but because we're time-limited, that "strength" becomes a weakness in an overall balance of truth.
If the Lord leads a man to a strong focus and examination of a certain Biblical truth, it will lead to wisdom and revelation to share with the Body, but if that "focus" is a man-made doctrine, it's not likely that it's the Lord doing the leading. I marvel that the Body has no greater wisdom than to polarize on various doctrines, failing to see God's desire for fellowship, patience, graciousness and love. He rewards the humility of forbearance with brothers' differences w/ wisdom.
I think you are on the right track - I have seen this arminianism verses calvinism debate lead to each side calling the other heretics as well and I must say for a while I was quite confused by it - because I recognized truth on both sides of the argument. You are so right about what you are saying - the main points are both agreed on so we don't need to get nasty with each other. I am thankful that I am not polarized onto either side myself but i tend to believe truths from both sides,
@fernieboy100 I'd would advocate that one of the position horribly misrepresents the other for their argument. A truth in debate would be to understand both position correctly and respect each other even when things get heated.
Calvinist believe in free will. who is the one saying they don't?
With this reasoning we stop talking about all our differences between virtually every denomination (with little exception) and thus the gospel becomes the leftover fragment we can all agree with. It becomes a couple sentences, ambiguous and resistant to understanding. It becomes the pronouncement of scripture without any meaning being grasped.
Only Arminians would posit something so stupid. Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian.
With this reasoning we stop talking about all our differences between virtually every denomination (with little exception) and thus the gospel becomes the leftover fragment we can all agree with. It becomes a couple sentences, ambiguous and resistant to understanding. It becomes the pronouncement of scripture without any meaning being grasped.
Only Arminians would posit something so stupid. Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian.
@HeavyHeart0 "Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian."
This is not true. I'm neither because neither show the wisdom of God, but they both polarize.
This is common for people lacking wisdom in the Word of God, which God has ordained with a multitude of seeming paradoxes and dichotomies, the truth of which He graciously shares with His beloved. Ps. 25:14, 68:6
I think you were predestined and chosen to show how well balanced Arminian thinking is. Ok so a little humor, I'm just amazed that I basically think the same way. After many years of growing in Grace and knowledge, I have a moderate view and trying to avoid labels. I've attended a Presbyterian, Lutheran and other churches for several years and it's great to Learn , Grow and fellowship with Gods People, Christians.
@preacherman777 what is a work if it's not something you choose to do like an arminian would say you do to to believe. if it involves the "will" then it is a work. the will isn't involved in "believing" .
@canucksteel Yeah, well, the problem is you can't make that case biblically. Our will is very much involved in our salvation. It's all over the place in the Bible. So trying to say that our will to believe amounts to works doesn't add up. Having said that, this video is not for debating between the two theologies. I've allowed myself to be pulled in that already and I won't do it again. This video is about unity not division so if you want to argue, take it elsewhere.
@preacherman777 There can be unity but Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree on the five points because they are in opposite contrast to each other. One side says God is sovereign and chooses who is saved, the other side says that man's free will is what determines salvation. The debate has been going on for a long time and was really escalated during the Reformation and when people began to get their own Bibles after the printing press was invented.
@DougCameraMan I would agree with you. This debate has been around since Augustine. Arminians make many assumptions about Calvinism. For example the issue of "Free will", the Arminians believe to be a strong argument through scripture assumes that Calvinist don't believe that God gives free will. This issue has been put to rest hundreds of years ago with THose Reformers who taught in the influence of John Calvin.
@preacherman777 Its impossible to be unified... you assumes that both sides are misrepresenting each other therefore we need to get along. It is impossible for calvinist and arminians to believe in the same things given that there are very strong biblical evidence that God does not "draw" all man in a universal sense.
@theembracedofgod It's not impossible to be unified. The only requirements are humility, honesty and an ear to God. The errors of both sects are both misunderstanding some Scriptures and ignoring others. The answer to both are humility, love of the brothers and learning to hear the voice of the Lord, which He gives to those who are humble and walk in love and forgiveness.
The guaranteed way to avoid unity is for both groups to remain proud and stubborn and insist that, "We're right!"
@911dispatcher I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship. I would agree with your assertion about respecting one another in any conversation thus treating each other with brotherly love. amen.
I would dismiss that assumption that there are errors of calvin's systematic theology because of its full understanding of scripture in a whole. But others would extremely disagree and I would be glad to address where there is misunderstanding but they have to want to understand.
@theembracedofgod I don't think I used the word "respect." I don't respect lies, or the promotion of them. I hate hearing them and I don't even enjoy bearing with twisted explanations of them, but I recognize the need to love my brother even if and when he is wrong. So does everyone else for the most part. The problem mostly is the pride of Believers when they only have a partial understanding (MOST of our understanding is partial) and yet we pretend we're authorities on a doctrinal balance.
@911dispatcher I didnt say you respected lies or the promotion of them. it seems that you read in to things in my comments that aren't there. You make these assertions on basic authority then you condemn others for taking doctrinal stands on them. seems kinda contradictory
@theembracedofgod "I didnt say you respected lies or the promotion of them"
I didn't think you did.
"seems kinda contradictory"
I can understand that. It's difficult to grasp anything where we're limited in knowledge/understanding.
I'm very inquisitive by nature. I became a Believer almost 40 years ago. I've spent much time examining divergent views among Christians and the reasons for them because I saw early on that answers from God are not hard to get.
@theembracedofgod "you read in to things in my comments that aren't there"
I'm not trying to get into a discussion or debate on this issue and I say this just for your consideration:
I think when people speak, the range of hearing is phenomenally large, from those who "just don't get it," to those who understand far more was revealed than the speaker ever intended or considered. Much is communicated that's not plainly articulated -- sometimes intentional, sometimes not, sometimes unknown.
@theembracedofgod "I don't think I used the word "respect." I don't respect lies, or the promotion of them. I hate hearing them and I don't even enjoy bearing with twisted explanations of them, but I recognize the need to love my brother even if and when he is wrong."
Please understand that those remarks were not a subtle indictment of anything you said at all. I was just trying to express how accurately I like communication to be. I very rarely try to be obtuse.
The stark reality is that it's OBVIOUS to me that God has FILLED His Word with paradoxes and the problem that presents is that it requires GETTING WISDOM FROM GOD to put together diametrically opposed doctrines, over which "Christians" prefer polarization rather than God's way of humility, love and HEARING HIM. In virtually all doctrinal disagreements, just like philosophical arguments, both sides have truth and error.
@theembracedofgod Disagreement is part of life. It's also the way reasonable men start out who eventually come to see eye to eye. If you'll remember, Moses disagreed with God on destroying Israel and God adjusted His perspective to agree with Moses. Right or wrong?
Remember I said, "I suggest God COULD have put the Bible in Calvin's words." This is true, yet He didn't. Yet, it's not the Scripture you prefer but Calvin.
@theembracedofgod Allow me to remind you that I am not Arminian and predestination is so clearly presented in the Word of God that anyone who denies it is simply being dishonest with Scripture.
Furthermore, when one compares Rev. 13:8 and Eph. 1:4 with Rev. 20:15, how can they not see the evident fallacy of Arminianism?
So, for a moment, you're happy, but what happens when I show you the Scriptures that expose the errors of Calvinism?
Ever consider loyalty to ANY other than God is idolatry?
@911dispatcher I'm sorry but your creating a strawman fallacy, and to be quite honest... I don't like to speak to dishonest and irrational people. You assume that no one can speak in inspiration of the holy spirit thus confirming scripture. I believe that you are in error. Calvin had very good theology, The man knew what he was talking about when all Context of scripture is applied.
I am? Is it possible that you're mistaken? Is it possible that pride of theology has darkened your understanding?
I think you and your opponents are exceptionally proud of your very biased doctrines which both lack the wisdom and clear teaching of the Word of God in favor of men's.
Your contention towards one another is evidence both of your pride and your disobedience to God's Word in the area of love of the brethren.
@theembracedofgod "You assume that no one can speak in inspiration of the holy spirit thus confirming scripture."
Not only do I not assume such, I don't believe such. Why would you jump to such a conclusion? The anointing of the HS is precious and the primary way we should initially learn truth when we're in darkness in any area.
Plus you accuse me of being irrational and dishonest? I point back to my earlier remarks about love and relationships. Would you say those things to your father?
We're all in error. Do you really think you know someone who is not in error? If you do, then I suggest that shows you're brainwashed by something and someone other than the Holy Spirit.
If we're agreed there, why is my error worse than yours and why is my error so severe that you don't even bother to address it specifically but just dismiss me out of hand?
Remember what I said about pride and relationships?
@theembracedofgod "Calvin had very good theology, The man knew what he was talking about when all Context of scripture is applied."
So now, we've gone from God's Spirit confirming someone's words to your confirming all of Calvin's theology. Where do you find that deed justified by "two or three witnesses"?
Can you give me "two or three witnesses" to justify that? Can you, before your brothers, present any legitimate evidence that I was "irrational" or dishonest?
Are you familiar with, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"? James 1:19
@theembracedofgod "I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship."
I challenge you to show me ANY Scriptural support that any such difference even exists. If ALL the law is contained in two commandments and the second is like the first, then nothing is outside of relationship. We treat everyone the way we do because of relationship. There are no exceptions. If you think there are, show me (of *course* I mean "in the Bible").
@theembracedofgod "I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship."
I would say, "In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's completely obvious that ALMOST all the conflict between these two factions is because of unloving relationships," but I've already said it, haven't I? ;-)
@canucksteel Quite a DUMB remark. If believing is a choice, then the will is MOST DEFINITELY involved in believing. If believing isn't a choice, then there's no reason to preach the Gospel.
@741rjohnson The man himself makes the decisions; they are influenced somewhat by external forces but are made by the man or woman who is the free moral agent held responsible by God, to exactly the extent that it is true, no more, no less.
Mcfirefly2 1 month ago
"Latest Controversies" ... hahaha... latest? only a few hundred years old, huh?
uswestons 1 month ago
The logic of universalism:If God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminian Theology; 1Timothy2:3-4)and he has the power to accomplish his desires(Calvinist Theology;Isaiah55:11)then he will save everyone. Obviously the Church doesn't agree with this,but I hope you see the logic in it. One thing the Church should consider is this--The combination of the two theologies gets you universalism plain and simple.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson Except of course that both theologies teach judgment and eternal Hell for them that don't believe. Besides, one has to accept the Calvinist notion that God will force people to be saved, which I for one, based on very Biblical grounds, completely reject. God gave man the free will to choose life or death. The Bible is very clear about that.
preacherman777 2 months ago
@preacherman777God does not{force men}to himself.He will{draw all men}to himself through his Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross(John12:32).Once man has been delivered from his bondage to corruption,everyone will willingly choose God(Romans8:21-22Isaiah45:23;Philippians2:10-11).Did God force you to repent?No.Did you make a decision to repent?Yes.But what{lead}you to make that decision? It was God's goodness(Romans2:4).He will do the same for everyone(1Cor15:22-23)
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson You are practicing a theological no no, which we like to call reductionism in order to try and establish your theology. You're upholding certain scriptures outside of their proper context and understanding to use against other scriptures that clearly teach an opposing doctrine. Namely the fact there will be people who are condemned eternally. I know the Bible way to well, for you to convince me ignore the parts of it that don't fit your belief system.
preacherman777 2 months ago
@preacherman777 You are correct. We should always use scriptures in their proper context.But it isn't about context, it's about interpretation.Take for instance 1Timothy2:3-4;Isaiah55:11,and Matthew25:46. Each theological system whether it be Arminian,Calvinist or Universalist will interpret these scriptures and any scripture according to their belief system. And let me be clear:although I may disagree with your comments,they are thought provoking and logical. God Bless.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson Well, then, let's agree to disagree. If you are convinced by your beliefs, I'm ok with that and if I am convinced by mine, I hope you can be ok with that. Besides, if your beliefs are true, then I have nothing to worry about if I am wrong now do I?
preacherman777 2 months ago
@preacherman777 "very clear" - support with text.
uswestons 1 month ago
Comment removed
741rjohnson 2 months ago
pride comes before destruction and a haughtyspirit before a fall
polopowers1 3 months ago
@polopowers1 Pride has nothing to do with it. It's submission to the Word of God. Rather the opposite of pride actually.
preacherman777 3 months ago
@preacherman777 We can sometimes be quite proud (in our own evaluation) of our submission to the Word of God.
This is not a veiled attempt to suggest and I'm not suggesting that you're proud. I'm simply saying that I think your argument against pride (because of submission to God's Word) is entirely illegitimate.
I've seen in myself and others quite a bit of pride in spiritual matters. Unfortunately, we all have difficulty seeing our own pride and I've seen extreme spiritual pride before.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@preacherman777 Do you believe that universalism is a heretical doctrine? If so explain why. Thanks and God bless
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson Yes, I do believe it's heretical. The reason would be that there so much in the scriptures that speaks against the idea. I know there are some who have tried to make arguments for it for scripture, but it required some pretty creative hermeneutics, which I don't think stand up under scrutiny.
preacherman777 2 months ago
@preacherman777 I'm just trying to understand why the Calvinist and the Arminians believe that Christian Universalism is heretical.Here's my point:Point A-God desires the salvation of everyone(Arminianism);Point B-God is Sovereign,therefore he will accomplish all that he desires(Calvinism/Reformed Theology).If Point A is a true biblical statement and Point B is a true biblical statement,why is it considered heretical for the Universalist to believe in both these true statements?
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@741rjohnson Because the Bible also teaches judgment and eternal Hell for them that don't believe. And let's be clear, God desires all to be saved, but his its His purposes that will be accomplished. Jesus grieved over the Israelists who would not come to him. He wanted them to, but they would not. The free will of man within the framework of God's plan is expressed throughout the Bible. The Universalist is not unlike the Calvinist in that he removes the free will of man.
preacherman777 2 months ago
@preacherman777 The Arminians and Calvinist have beautiful theologies.The tragedy is both the Calvinist and the Arminians adhere to Augustine's theory of judgment(eternal punishment).They are forced to reject or explain away the glorious side of each other's theology.But if they embraced each other's theology there would be nothing to reject or explain away.They could then harmonize the scriptures of judgment and mercy for all and unite the body of Christ.Thanks for the comments.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@rjohnson "Thanks for the comments"
1st, Calvinism & Arminianism are totally opposite belief systems & can't be reconciled with each other - they can't both be "beautiful theologies" when one (Calvinism) is completely false. 2nd, God's judgment against unrpentant sinners is one of the most fundamental doctrines found in the bible, The wages of sin is death - those destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Rev21:8) won't be returning, it's the 2nd death. 3rd, you're welcome - repent & accept the truth.
JackMWolfe 2 months ago
@JackMWolfe "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".1Cor15:26 If eternal death is true then death claims a huge victory over millions possibly billions of people in the lake of fire.1Cor15:26 ceases to have any meaning.How can death be eternal if death is destroyed(abolished) by Christ(2Tim1:10;1Cor15:26).Jesus Christ destroys(abolishes)death by making everyone alive(1Cor15:22-23).And the bible makes it plain that the 2nd is not another death:The second death is the lake of fire.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@rjohnson Fallacious arguments The reality is that death came into the world thru Adam's transgression & although God supplies a remedy thru Christ, only those who avail themselves of it by choosing to repent & accept Him will be raised to eternal life. Those who refuse will only be raised for final judgment & then face their final & permanent destruction. They CHOSE death over life & God honors their decision - He doesnn't force anyone to have a relationship with Himself they don't want.
JackMWolfe 2 months ago
@JackMWolfe You're not using scripture to back up your comments.You can't because eternal death and free will are not biblical doctrines: Free will--The power of{directing our actions}without influence; God's Will--"A man's heart deviseth his way:but the Lord{directs his steps}."Proverbs16:9. We have the ability to make choices,but choices are influenced by circumstances beyond our control. Peter didn't want to deny Jesus but something influenced his will---The Roman Legions.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@rjohnson 1st, I've given you scriptures but you reject them for your fantasy. 2nd, biblical free will doesn't proclaim man is autonomous but that he can make choices between right & wrong when God calls him 3rd, Pr16:9 says God "directs" man's steps not "forces" them. 4th, Peter's denial was based on his unrepentant rebellion against Christ's intention of going to the cross (Mt16:22) - the circumstances just exposed it. 5th, your false gospel is condemned with an eternal curse by Gal1:7-9
JackMWolfe 2 months ago
@JackMWolfe you're proving my point.The biblical definition of man's will says that man's will is not autonomous(free),but directed by God(Pr16:9).The arminian definition of man's will says that man's will is free from any direction, or influence.The arminian definition of man's will contradicts the biblical definition of man's will. The arminian definition of free will is a contradiction in terms. Restrictive free will is like square circles.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@rjohnson Ridiculous, ignorant comments. 1st, Arminians acknowledge man's free will has a lot of restrictions - man can't flap his arms & fly whenever he wants & it's influenced in many directions - but man still has the capacity to choose between right & wrong, otherwise there's no basis for God to judge them. 2nd, AGAIN: being "directed" by God does NOT mean being FORCED by God. 3rd, your problem is you have a fixed agenda & you have no intention to let the truth or reality get in the way.
JackMWolfe 2 months ago
@JackMWolfe How can man's will be free and restricted at the same time.Free and restricted have opposite meanings.Man's will can't be both.You're not using common sense.Man has the ability to make choices but those choices are influenced and caused by internal and external forces therefore not free.
741rjohnson 2 months ago
@rjohnson More gibberish. If someone wants to travel to Europe from the US they have the freedom to choose between flying or sailing but they don't have the freedom to walk - man's free will decisions are always limited or restricted by many factors. Your arguments aren't just juvenile, they're asinine - but that's what these false doctrines do to their adherents, makes bufoons out of them. I don't have time for your delusions - God has no delight in witless fools & neither do I.
JackMWolfe 2 months ago
"God knows we're all pretty much idiots."
What's amazing is how much God loves idiots.and wants us to become child idiots. Child idiots have much more humility than mature, educated idiots.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
That is not true when Moses asked God to show me your glory while His Spirit passed by God declared His Virtue My goodness, mercy etc. God told Moses My glory is My essence . My self existing Life is My perpetual unsuspended Virtue.The video you showed is dis ingenuous by your comments if God revealed Himself a certain way I cannot treat Him different.Christ in the burning bush declared I Am that I Am not eternal, perpetual.All free will is self righteous having original good nature
polopowers1 3 months ago
@polopowers1 The fault lies in the conclusion you draw. You are attempting to box God into an assumption you are making as if you, a finite person can fully understand God. This is why the truth between sovereign choice and human responsibility is a mystery not unlike the Trinity in the sense that it is beyond our ability to define. The Bible teaches both God's choice and man's choice and somehow the two work together in savlation. Denying that is reductionism.
preacherman777 3 months ago
@preacherman777 How can God be free if man can has power or knowledge not His own.It is you who box God in. My God is free not held by man's will to infringe by personal choice.God is free because there is no will that has independent virtue or power. How can anyone not realize free will is self righteous. Declaring will before choosing has virtue innate to choose. Not to mention will having power innate but where does it come from ? Man.? Does everyone have equal power equal virtue to choose.?
polopowers1 3 months ago
@polopowers1 You spend too much time choosing to think your own thoughts instead of submitting to the Spirit of God. Preacherman777 tried to bring you back to the Bible but you just want to use the Bible as a springboard to elaborate on spurious, specious and unscriptural verbiage. You clearly don't value God's Word the way you *should*. I strongly recommend that you divest yourself of your opinions and learn to abide in the Word and ask God to minister to you by His Spirit, who EXALTS the Word.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@polopowers1 You are obviously not paying attention to what I have said. Free will comes from God and exists on His terms. Go back and re-read my previous comments. Man cannot have free will independant of God for he is created by God, but the Word of God shows us that free will has indeed been given to man and the refusal to accept that, as I stated, is to practice reductionism with the scriptures since it's so obvious. Don't deny the sciptures for the sake of your doctrine.
preacherman777 3 months ago
@preacherman777 You are obviously not paying attention>? You mean I obviously dis agree with your saying I'm in some reductionism theory. Not so, I believe God has ordained all things though it appears I have choice. And because it appears that way I pray to accept all God has ordained.You pray with hope of changing a will or choices in people in order to to be like God's.All free will believes God can be marred His glory can be stepped upon, impossible.God is never in suspense of anothers will.
polopowers1 3 months ago
@preacherman777 Please don't think I'm desiring to be adversarial for I'm not. But I think that as Believers, we have a loyalty to God's Word even beyond our understanding.
"Free will comes from God and exists on His terms."
Would you like to defend those two points with Scripture? I think you're obligated to do so. I find "free will" to be a "manufactured" truth. It rationally appears obvious, so people pretend it's "truth," yet I find no scriptural support for it.
Go ahead; I'm listening.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@polopowers1 Ok, whatever, this is a pointless debate. You have your opinion, but I'm going to believe what I see in the Bible. Enough said.
preacherman777 3 months ago
What is denied is the Nature of God. Which came first God's Spirit or God's Virtue.? His goodness, truth, love, mercy, or attribute of knowledge or power.They are simultaneous of course You cannot say God's Spirit was first and His Virtue came later. What makes God perpetual self existing life.? Answer; His Spirit substance, and Virtue.His Substance Spirit and Virtue are His perpetual self existing life. Free will must suspend a virtue of God's Life in order to exist, which is impossible.
polopowers1 3 months ago
@polopowers1 First of all, your argument has nothing to do with scripture and is based solely on philosophical reasoning, which basically boils down to eisegesis. Second, man has a free will because God, in his sovereignty gives him one. God can do that if he wants to and obviously he did. This is what the scriptures actually do show us.
preacherman777 3 months ago
@torvasal We already know from God's word & what Christ said in Jn17:3 what will happen to you. "This is eternal life: to know You, the only true & real God & Jesus the Christ, Whom You have sent." You instead follow a counterfeit god & Christ - a Bad Shepherd who comes to save a few arrogant sheep & kicks the rest of the flock off the nearest cliff. Your "gospel" (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) is just BAD NEWS, & cursed by Gal1:7-9 - & so are those who promote it.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal Save your hypocritical sermons for yourself. You're the one who's been shown to be ignorant of God's word & if you don't repent of your apostasy & rebellion you'll be destroyed by it. Calvinists promote a false gospel, blaspheme God by accusing Him of creating helpless people solely to cast them into hell, change, manipulate, & add to God's word, cause division in the Body, cause others to stumble, & falsley accuse their detractors - these are all DEATH PENALTY offenses.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal Lunacy.1st, Acts7:51 is a reference to resisting the gospel which is the means the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. The only one you "got" was YOURSELF - & you resist the Holy Spirit just like they did. 2nd, the raising of Lazarus doesn't support your abominations. Resurrection is by decree & will happen to ALL people but salvation is a GIFT not by decree - it can be rejected. Whether someone takes part in the 1st or the 2nd resurrection depends on whether they accept Christ or not.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal 1st, resisting God's drawing is seen in Acts7:51 "You stubborn & stiff-necked people..you're always actively resisting the Holy Spirit" & Lk7:30 "the Pharisees rejected God's purpose concerning themselves" 2nd, the ENTIRE 1st generation of Israelites lost their salvation & Paul uses it to warn NT believers in 1Cor10 & Heb3&4 the same will happen to them if also guilty of disobedience & unbelief. 3rd, Lazarus typifies resurrection NOT salvation - ALL are resurrected, not all are saved.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal 3rd, Deut30:11 clearly says they CAN obey God's commandments & Paul affirms this in Rom10 for NT believers by quoting it. 4th, the Ninevites weren't regenerated before believing God's message & choosing to repent. Fallen man has no trouble whatsoever understanding that if they don't turn from their sins then God will destroy them - the message doesn't require any great spiritual insight to understand. Those who choose to obey it will then be regenerated in Christ.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal You're all over the map.1st, like all God's promises & covenants Jer31:18-19 is conditional & based on faith & obedience eg, in Ex6:6-8 God also promised to bring the 1st generation of Israelites into the Promised Land, but instead they all died in the desert because of disobedience & unbelief. 2nd, Jn15:16 merely says what's already been stated - salvation is based on God choosing & calling man, but that doesn't negate the fact that man must also choose to accept & obey His call.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal You're wrong. 1st, man can't save himself. He cannot & will not come to God on his own - God must intervene by convicting him of his sin & need for a Savior & calls him to repentance - those who CHOOSE to obey His call are then regenerated in Christ. 2nd, read the next verse in Josh24 - they can't "IFyou forsake the Lord & serve strange gods THEN He will turn & do you harm..(vs20). 3rd, God allows no one to be tempted beyond their ability to resist. 4th, read Deut30:11 - man CAN obey.
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@torvasal What else but your own free will explains how your posts got on this video? Did some mysterious force make you type them out? Do you think they were foreordained to be written from the foundation of the world - did God directly inspire them? Do you have a choice to respond to my post or not? Will whatever you decide be God's will? How DO you come up with the idea that there's no such thing as free will - it's all around you & you use it yourself hundreds of times daily!
JackMWolfe 6 months ago
@JackMWolfe I agree. For some, their understanding of it is within the Gospel, but for others, it is another Gospel. If I believe that I am saved by something that happened in eternity past, and that believing was just going through the motions God demands, where is the actual good news for anyone, myself included? I might as well have "slept in."
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
@mcfirefly3 I have wrestled with this issue for many years. Deep down I want to call it heresy, but I can't ignore the agreement that exists on those fundamentals and the genuine love for Christ and the Word of God that I have seen in many of my Calvinist friends. I'm not willing to set myself up as their judge. I speak the truth of the whole Word of God to them, but I will leave judgement on such matters to God.
preacherman777 7 months ago
Having said that, I also really don't think that most Calvinists realize what an insult to God Calvinism really is. I think for most they see it as the only way to really give all glory to God, but what they forget is that you can't glorify God by human reasoning, you must glorify God within the confines of the system he designed and revealed in His Word, whether you like it or not.
preacherman777 7 months ago
These people want to tell everyone that God doesn't love everyone, that God doesn't want to save everyone, in fact, is glorified by making people he deliberately withholds grace from just to send them to hell "to his glory." And the nature of the God who saves is not irrelevant to the Gospel.
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
See, God looks at the heart. If what Calvinists mean in their hearts by the words of the Gospel is what the Spirit of God intends, then the "small" variations are truly small and din't matter in their case. Meanwhile, rockribbed (!) Clalvinism as an orthodox position works to keep people thinking church membership is the mark of election and salvation,and by its nature blicks the truth of God from those who don't want a God who doesn't love everyone.
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
Those words that you say that they agree on mean radically different things to them. I don't call myself an Arminian but I cannot see how, if I believe it is anathema to say that I could choose to believe, that that doen't imply another gospel. It isn't about promoting controversy; it's about the good news, itself..
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
There are people who have called themselves Calvinists for various reasons who are no doubt believing Christians, Dr McGee and Spurgeon for example. But true Calvinist, monergists, are extreme. The implications of TULIP are very damaging. It lies about God.
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
They say that the elect receive "Irresistable Grace" and so are saved against their will, and "prevenient grace" which means God brings with conviction the grace to obey, is despised. But how can believing that I have no choice not be another Gospel? It sure is not good news.
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
@mcfirefly "But how can believing that I have no choice not be another Gospel? It sure is not good news"
Calvinism does have a different gospel - "Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you" & blasphemes God with their "salvation by force" heresy. Salvation is a gift, God neither forces Himself on anyone & certainly doesn't deny salvation to anyone as they claim. They have a different gospel, a different "god", change dozens of verses & evade hundreds more to promote their aberrations.
JackMWolfe 7 months ago
You hate the controversy, but it really is not something to be apathetic about, either. The Calvinists I've been reading and responding to on a forum despise "prevenient grace," meaning that the Holy Spirit convicts and then you have a choice of whether to receive salvation or not.
mcfirefly3 7 months ago
The Synod Of Dort declared the Remonstrants, the Arminians to be heretics. There has never been a synod since to declare otherwise. Calvinists are Monergists and Arminians are Synergists. Someone has to be wrong. If the Church as Ephesians 3, says is the mystery that the mind of God is known then which of these thoughts is from the mind of God?
mindlessnirvanaa 7 months ago
@mindlessnirvanaa Well, I would tend to agree with you that one is truth (or at least closer to truth) and one is not. I know what the Synod of Dort did, but that was an act of man that I think holds little meaning to any but the most extreme Calvinists. The fact is, Calvinists and Arminians both agree on the fundamentals of the faith so really neither side has any business condemning the other as a heretic. That is my point and I think most on both sides know that.
preacherman777 7 months ago
@preacherman777 I choose not to argue with anyone. In the context that one is closer to the truth then there must be a truth. If Dort was a synod of men then one has to trace the elements of both, ie Calvinism and Armenianism as acts of men. This brings into question the ever fallible men making fallible doctrines that does not emanate from The Church, the mystery hidden for all ages, through which the mind of God is known as Paul says. This is true.
mindlessnirvanaa 7 months ago
@mindlessnirvanaa I can agree with that.
preacherman777 7 months ago
I do NOT believe in either one!!!!!!
jbmanish 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jbmanish "I do NOT believe in either one!!!!!!"
Very deep & enlightening - thanks for sharing.
JackMWolfe 7 months ago
I am a 5 point Calvinist and I want to thank you for being respectful when discussing this. I noticed a lot of hostility towards Calvinists like myself, and sometimes towards Arminianists.
StopFear 7 months ago
@StopFear Calvinists falsely accuse God of creating helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell in order to "glorify himself" - that He sends out FAKE calls of repentance to some, withholds the ability for them to respond, & then destroys them for disobeying! Wouldn't you ALSO take offense at someone depicting your father as a liar & murderer? Calvinists are like the family dog who's dug up some dead remains in the backyard & wonders why no one will let him back in the house!
JackMWolfe 7 months ago
Extremists? This video serves the Pope well.
hisfreewill 7 months ago
No no no! It's *Trollvanism* (Calvanism) in other words you keep SPAM SPAMing the other side until they repent to your way of thinking. THEN they start "trolling"
The LOL trollacon begins!
LampPlaceThing 8 months ago
Calvinism Is CORRECT theology! Do Your Research! Arminian Theology is Mainly for evangelical churches
lasvegasdaril 8 months ago
thank you I will study these scriptures.
Koonethboy 8 months ago
One thing I must add. I do have to disagree with those who teach that one can loose ones salvation, this is one subject that the bible is overwhelmingly clear on. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Those who teach otherwise may still be saved (as Wesley surely was). But I do believe that teaching is clearly contrary to Scripture.
Koonethboy 8 months ago
@Koonethboy I'm afraid I would have to argue that the Bible is overwhelmingly clear that eternal security is in fact conditional upon our remaining in Christ, not by our works, but by faith.
preacherman777 8 months ago
Amen brother!!! Interesting historical fact, Arminius actually considered himself a Calvinist. A calm rational discussion with sound biblical teaching, a rarity today. I believe the most important thing is that we remember that salvation is God's work, not man's. Calvin understood this as did Wesley.
Koonethboy 8 months ago
@preacherman777 I would like to hear what scriptures you would point to, I have studied this, as best as I am able from an unbiased perspective (I was not raised in a church, so that actually helps in this situation), and I just don't see it. I keep being drawn to Galatians 3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" How can I maintain or loose, what God has wrought?
Koonethboy 8 months ago
@Koonethboy You (and Galatians) are talking about being justified and retained by works. That's not what I am talking about. Here's a few scriptures to get you started, but there are many more if you study the whole counsel of God with an open mind. Colossians 1:21-23, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1 Timothy 4:13-16, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-29, James 1:12, James 5:19-20, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:16-17 (this one will be especially important for you to read)
preacherman777 8 months ago
Calvinism Is CORRECT Theology. Do Your Research!
lasvegastroll 9 months ago
@lasvegastroll Well, I guess that settles it then. Why didn't I just ask you to begin with?
preacherman777 9 months ago
@lasvegastroll what research tools would you suggest. oh, you don't mean Calvinist works do you?
roaringwaterbay 8 months ago
@roaring Don't waste your time, lasvegastroll is a phony - a notorious troll & predator with many sock accounts such as lasvegasdaril & rebeccagillespie, sometimes using his real name Daril Lev. He's been thrown out of churches in Vegas such as New Community Church for falsely posting on YouTube that he was the youth pastor there & from Fellowship Christian, accused by the pastor of pedophilia, & see the vile racial slurs he posts on videos such as "Is this racist? Song of the South clip" Avoid!
JackMWolfe 8 months ago
@JackMWolfe thanks for the tip.
roaringwaterbay 8 months ago
@JackMWolfe... why call it "the Doctrines of Grace" when Calvinism teaches the Doctrines of DAMNATION? that the vast majority are created in the womb DEAD, and purposely manufactured DEFECTIVE created in the image of Satan lacking ALL ability to repent or beg for MERCY BEFORE having done anything either good or bad from the moment of conception-- the truth is, there is NO GRACE, just an INJUST selection of individuals for DAMNATION by a Cold-Hearted Fatalistic Cosmic Tyrant
apollos6640 9 months ago
@apollos "why call it "the Doctrines of Grace""
It's all part of Calvinism's deceptive doublespeak - even Calvinists are repulsed by their own doctrines & spend most of their time putting lipstick on the filthy pig they've embraced. It's a doctrine of demons that's diametrically opposed to the real gospel & blasphemes the true God of the bible.
JackMWolfe 9 months ago
One thing I would disagree with in the video is that you say both sides believed that we are saved by grace. On the Arminian wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they believe in works based salvation since they believe in freewill. I used to have the Arminian view towards Christianity but what I see from it is now is people giving glory to man instead of God and what is worse is that they reject scriptures about God being in control. Arminians just dont seem to know the Bible very well
Risen1s 9 months ago
@Risen1s Well, and I could say that Calvinists often seem arrogant, but neither generalization does the situation any good. The fact is, if you know your Bible, you'll find that it speaks both of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility when it comes to salvation. The whole truth of exactly how that works is really a mystery, but the fact remains that both are taught. Regardless, it's all about God's grace and Arminians do not teach works based salvation. Thinking they do is shortsighted.
preacherman777 9 months ago
@preacherman777 I thought that Arminians reject the doctrines of Grace? all arminians I have encountered reject any Biblical teachings of Grace and always resort to their free will choice. I don't see how that would not be considered works based beliefs since they give glory to man instead of God.
Risen1s 9 months ago
@Risen 1st, Arminians reject Calvinism's condemned, limited gospel (Repent, for Christ MIGHT have died for you) which has nothing to do with any "grace" in the bible - it's a "gospel" that's just Bad News for the great majority of mankind. 2nd, Arminians don't believe that man saves himself - a drowning man who reaches out to grasp a lifeline doesn't walk away boasting how he saved himself by his free will. That's a ludicrous misrepresentation - ALL the glory goes to God, none to man.
JackMWolfe 9 months ago
@Risen1s Well then, you've been talking to people who don't understand Arminianism. They reject the "doctrines of grace" as defined by Calvinists, but they in no way reject grace. They affirm that man is dead in sin and unable to save himself, they affirm that man can only come to faith by aid of the Holy Spirit and they affirm that man is saved by grace through faith and not by any works that he may do. But, they do not affirm that faith is a work or that man plays no role in coming to faith.
preacherman777 9 months ago
I do have one question. When you're speaking of Paul and agreeing in the Lord, how should I react when I read that Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement? I agree that we should be one unified body of Christ because it's Biblical. But how do we know when it's okay to have a disagreement?
musicianactor22 1 year ago
@musicianactor22 It's always ok to have disagreements and we can discuss and debate, there's nothing wrong with that. The issue is whether or not to divide over things. When we agree in Christ, we agree on the fundamentals of the faith and base our unity on the fact that we can agree on those fundamentals. Calvinism or Arminianism is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. You can believe either and still be within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy.
preacherman777 11 months ago
Thank you for this video. I'm really on the fence between the two theologies because I've always believed that certain attributes for both sides are definitely true. But I agree with you 100% that this is not that relevant of an issue as we are not to lean on our own understanding. It's a shame that these things have caused such division in the church.
BrizzinX 1 year ago
You're right, Calvinists and Arminians agree on far more than we disagree. But the debate between the two groups has been going on since the time of Christ. Both sides believe the other side demeans God. Calvinists also get tired of hearing Arminians say that Calvinists worship John Calvin, while they worship Christ, but nothing could be further from the truth. Both sides can quote scripture to supposedly support their side, but the real question is this: What did Jesus say?
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan Jesus said, "All that the Father gives to me shall come to me". Jesus said: "You have not chosen me, I have chosen you". Jesus said: "I give my life a ransom for many". "I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life for my sheep". When speaking to disbelievers, He said "You cannot hear me because you are children of the Devil, and it is his will that you do". Jesus clearly had no problem distinguishing between his sheep that he was going to save... and all others.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan God desires all men to be saved, and isnt willing that any should perish.
Natester27 1 year ago
@Natester27 But you would agree that not all men are saved, right? so then if not all men are saved, but yet God "isn't willing that any should perish" then something is out of whack. On one hand we k now that there are people going to Hell, unsaved, but God apparently is unable to save them even though it is his will that they be saved? That must be the only thing in the universe that God can't do ... save all men if that is his desire and will.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan you are right, therefore predestination is false, if he wants all men to be saved, and those who are saved are predestined, Then the concept of predestination is false, think about it....God cant make us choose, Rom 1 says all me can see God in creation & are with out excuse.
For those whom He Foreknew, He predestinded[to be conformed to the image of his Son] Not salvation. , God had a preset plan for those who would choose Him. If I am not chosen why do I have a desire for God?
Natester27 1 year ago
@Natester27 or maybe what is meant by "God isn't willing that any should perish" means that God isn't willing that any of the chosen ones given to Christ should perish. Jesus said this when he said that he would not lose any that the Father has given to him. He never said he was saving Judas Iscariot, or Herod, or Pilote. Not "all" are saved because it is not God's will that all be saved. If it was, then all would be saved.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan , God isnt willing that any should persish right? Well, if they are predestined, then THEY WONT. Think about it, It makes sense. 1 John 2:2 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
John Calvin was a murderer, by their fruits ye shall know them
Natester27 1 year ago
@Natester27 Yes, and the predestined elect wont perish. "Whole world" does not mean every person who has ever lived, or even every person in the world at that time. If it did, it would contradict far more scripture that is perfectly clear that not all are saved, and that Jesus has his sheep, and that not all people are his sheep. "Whole world" means all of the saints in all generations who have been chosen by the Father, and saved by the Son. No more, no less.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan 1 Peter 5:2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve
Jesus died for all, Heb 2:9, it is up to them to accept it. What you are saying is the God creates people for the purpose of sending them to hell. If that is the case and we are all predestined, why are you or any other calvinist making videos or even preaching the word?
Natester27 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan Are you telling me that I am not Saved because I dont believe what a murderer like John Calvin taught. Not to boast, but I read the Bible every day, pray to God, listen to Christian radio, love to hear sermons, it is food for the soul. Now according to a Calvinist I met earlier, God does not love me and even HATES me and there is nothing I can do about it. Now, I ask my you, what is making me love God then? Jesus said I stand at the door and knock,
Natester27 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan Take these two statements side by side, "God desires ALL men to be saved."
" All who are saved are predestined to be." Now, if both of those statements were true, then everyone would be saved, but not all men are saved, so, one of them is false. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHICH ONE IS FALSE? Don't add any commentary, any other verses, or any opinion, just tell me which statement is false.
Natester27 1 year ago
@Natester27 Neither verse is false. I'd suggest you do a Google search of the verse: 'God is not willing that any should perish". you will then be able to click on any number of explanations to what might appear to be a conflict. to put it simple, even the most influential and powerful man may not do everything he desires as reason and purpose may carry more weight than just desire alone. Google it for some interesting explanations.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan That wasnt the verse I gave, it was God desires all men to be saved, and why google it? I can read the Bible. Calvinism teaches a lot of things, one is that no man can come to God of his own will, and another is you have to accept that you are predestined. But, then explain arminians by the way I am a Christian, not arminian, Or explain any other denomination that believes in free will, how are they believing then? But really, really though, I dont wish to argue anymore, God Bless
Natester27 1 year ago
The five points of Calvinism was a response to the five points Arminianism which were attacking a biblical view of how sovereign God is.
God redeems believers... not everyone is believing.
theembracedofgod 1 year ago
@theembracedofgod "The five points of Calvinism was a response to the five points Arminianism which were attacking a biblical view of how sovereign God is"
Historical revisionism - Arminianism is a response to John Calvin's heresy which didn't exist until he systemized it in the 1500's. Arminius was just the first to refute & expose it as a false gospel. Calvinism is composed ENTIRELY of manipulated prooftexts & changing or ignoring the dozens, even hundreds, of verses that contradict it.
JackMWolfe 4 months ago
@JackMWolfe I think you need to hit the books my friend because you are incorrect on your dating. The five points of Calvinism didn't exist when Mr Calvin was walking around.
I've read some of your resent comments to others and have i yet to find one subject you are willing to prove. yes you give out scripture but we also give out scripture- I pray that you'll find the joy of the Lord that He is God and we aren't.
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
@embraced 1st, take your own advice & you'll find that Calvin published his Instituttes in 1536, they're summarized by the acronym TULIP or "the 5 points" & Arminius & the Remonstrants opposed his teachings as unbiblical - that's basic history. 2nd, the scriptures I just cited directly refute Calvinism - Lk7:30, Acts7:51, 1Cor10, Heb3&4 and there are hundreds more 3rd, Calvinism uses prooftexts they've ripped from the bible & twisted - they've all been proven to be just Satanic manipulations.
JackMWolfe 4 months ago
@JackMWolfe
No, I'm sorry if this offends you but you are just an error about your facts. Calvin died in 1564 while having published his institutes of the christian religion in 1536 which by the way has no where the teachings of "5 points of calvinism". What is amazing to me is that you don't acknowledge the debate going back to Augustine and Pelagius's debate about original sin and other "calvinist" concepts. seems that you just hate calvin and wanting to blow some cultic steam.
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
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JackMWolfe 4 months ago
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@embraced Are you saying that TULIP or the "5 points" don't summarize Calvin's Institutes? And the fact that some of his heresies were held previously by others is totally irrelevant, Calvin was the first to put them into a systematic belief system. Next time, try to have a point. I noticed you didn't deal with any scriptures I cited - just the phrase in Lk7:30 "they rejected God's will for themselves" totally refutes Calvinism, which instead claims God's will can NEVER be set aside by man.
JackMWolfe 4 months ago
@JackMWolfe -- just a "FYI" which you probably already know, but shortening anyone's user name means they won't get notification of your message to them and will have to initiate the search for your comment. Notification is very convenient to all how roam YouTube and don't daily "squat" on just a few videos.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
how do you spell that work "isogenisis" --is that right?
roaringwaterbay 1 year ago
@roaringwaterbay eisegesis
911dispatcher 1 year ago
I believe in all the Gospel. Not just pick a part here or pick a part there only to fit my own religion. You either reject all of Gods word or accept all of Gods word. I will not make Christ a pauper and say he is a God of love only. Christ Jesus' office is of Prophet, Priest and King of all mankind and those who reject Him he will cast into the Lake of Fire.
Proof is found in Revelation (20:11-15)
Surfxeo 1 year ago
@Surfxeo I haven't read any of your other remarks and therefore don't know what, if any, point you're trying to support or make beyond those simple words, but standing alone, they sound very good to me, and that's why I gave them a "thumbs up." :-)
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@Surfxeo ... in fact, your point is one which far more people seem to need to understand. So many fail to grasp that the Word of God is just as multifaceted as all of life and narrow focuses invariably lead to error and deception. We have a great God and life demonstrates to us that the more we focus on any issue, the more we learn and understand about *that issue*, but because we're time-limited, that "strength" becomes a weakness in an overall balance of truth.
continued
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@Surfxeo cont2
If the Lord leads a man to a strong focus and examination of a certain Biblical truth, it will lead to wisdom and revelation to share with the Body, but if that "focus" is a man-made doctrine, it's not likely that it's the Lord doing the leading. I marvel that the Body has no greater wisdom than to polarize on various doctrines, failing to see God's desire for fellowship, patience, graciousness and love. He rewards the humility of forbearance with brothers' differences w/ wisdom.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
I think you are on the right track - I have seen this arminianism verses calvinism debate lead to each side calling the other heretics as well and I must say for a while I was quite confused by it - because I recognized truth on both sides of the argument. You are so right about what you are saying - the main points are both agreed on so we don't need to get nasty with each other. I am thankful that I am not polarized onto either side myself but i tend to believe truths from both sides,
fernieboy100 1 year ago
@fernieboy100 I'd would advocate that one of the position horribly misrepresents the other for their argument. A truth in debate would be to understand both position correctly and respect each other even when things get heated.
Calvinist believe in free will. who is the one saying they don't?
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
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With this reasoning we stop talking about all our differences between virtually every denomination (with little exception) and thus the gospel becomes the leftover fragment we can all agree with. It becomes a couple sentences, ambiguous and resistant to understanding. It becomes the pronouncement of scripture without any meaning being grasped.
Only Arminians would posit something so stupid. Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian.
HeavyHeart0 1 year ago
With this reasoning we stop talking about all our differences between virtually every denomination (with little exception) and thus the gospel becomes the leftover fragment we can all agree with. It becomes a couple sentences, ambiguous and resistant to understanding. It becomes the pronouncement of scripture without any meaning being grasped.
Only Arminians would posit something so stupid. Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian.
HeavyHeart0 1 year ago
@HeavyHeart0 Only a true "Calvinist" would call "Christians" stupid for not becoming completely polarized into "isms".
pedroinaustin 1 year ago
@pedroinaustin But a true calvinist doesnt understand the love of the truth.....
tgillspy 1 year ago
@tgillspy hows that? Calvin came up with the term "doctrines of Grace" how is that not love of the truth?
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
@pedroinaustin You don't think anyone part of any "ism" would do the same? ;-)
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@HeavyHeart0 THat seems to be the case with a majority of perspectives.
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
@HeavyHeart0 "Only Arminians would say they aren't really Calvinist or Arminian."
This is not true. I'm neither because neither show the wisdom of God, but they both polarize.
This is common for people lacking wisdom in the Word of God, which God has ordained with a multitude of seeming paradoxes and dichotomies, the truth of which He graciously shares with His beloved. Ps. 25:14, 68:6
911dispatcher 3 months ago
I think you were predestined and chosen to show how well balanced Arminian thinking is. Ok so a little humor, I'm just amazed that I basically think the same way. After many years of growing in Grace and knowledge, I have a moderate view and trying to avoid labels. I've attended a Presbyterian, Lutheran and other churches for several years and it's great to Learn , Grow and fellowship with Gods People, Christians.
Blessings,
Pedro
pedroinaustin 1 year ago
Thank you preacherman, It's about time I found something positive in regards to these two different views. May I add also Biblical.
free044 1 year ago
faith plus works is heresy.
canucksteel 1 year ago
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LovePuppyCutie 1 year ago
@canucksteel Well, neither one of these theological systems teaches that, so I don't see your point.
preacherman777 1 year ago
@preacherman777 what is a work if it's not something you choose to do like an arminian would say you do to to believe. if it involves the "will" then it is a work. the will isn't involved in "believing" .
canucksteel 1 year ago
@canucksteel Yeah, well, the problem is you can't make that case biblically. Our will is very much involved in our salvation. It's all over the place in the Bible. So trying to say that our will to believe amounts to works doesn't add up. Having said that, this video is not for debating between the two theologies. I've allowed myself to be pulled in that already and I won't do it again. This video is about unity not division so if you want to argue, take it elsewhere.
preacherman777 1 year ago 4
@preacherman777 There can be unity but Calvinists and Arminians cannot agree on the five points because they are in opposite contrast to each other. One side says God is sovereign and chooses who is saved, the other side says that man's free will is what determines salvation. The debate has been going on for a long time and was really escalated during the Reformation and when people began to get their own Bibles after the printing press was invented.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan I would agree with you. This debate has been around since Augustine. Arminians make many assumptions about Calvinism. For example the issue of "Free will", the Arminians believe to be a strong argument through scripture assumes that Calvinist don't believe that God gives free will. This issue has been put to rest hundreds of years ago with THose Reformers who taught in the influence of John Calvin.
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
@preacherman777 Its impossible to be unified... you assumes that both sides are misrepresenting each other therefore we need to get along. It is impossible for calvinist and arminians to believe in the same things given that there are very strong biblical evidence that God does not "draw" all man in a universal sense.
theembracedofgod 4 months ago
@theembracedofgod It's not impossible to be unified. The only requirements are humility, honesty and an ear to God. The errors of both sects are both misunderstanding some Scriptures and ignoring others. The answer to both are humility, love of the brothers and learning to hear the voice of the Lord, which He gives to those who are humble and walk in love and forgiveness.
The guaranteed way to avoid unity is for both groups to remain proud and stubborn and insist that, "We're right!"
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@911dispatcher I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship. I would agree with your assertion about respecting one another in any conversation thus treating each other with brotherly love. amen.
I would dismiss that assumption that there are errors of calvin's systematic theology because of its full understanding of scripture in a whole. But others would extremely disagree and I would be glad to address where there is misunderstanding but they have to want to understand.
theembracedofgod 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod I don't think I used the word "respect." I don't respect lies, or the promotion of them. I hate hearing them and I don't even enjoy bearing with twisted explanations of them, but I recognize the need to love my brother even if and when he is wrong. So does everyone else for the most part. The problem mostly is the pride of Believers when they only have a partial understanding (MOST of our understanding is partial) and yet we pretend we're authorities on a doctrinal balance.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@911dispatcher I didnt say you respected lies or the promotion of them. it seems that you read in to things in my comments that aren't there. You make these assertions on basic authority then you condemn others for taking doctrinal stands on them. seems kinda contradictory
theembracedofgod 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I didnt say you respected lies or the promotion of them"
I didn't think you did.
"seems kinda contradictory"
I can understand that. It's difficult to grasp anything where we're limited in knowledge/understanding.
I'm very inquisitive by nature. I became a Believer almost 40 years ago. I've spent much time examining divergent views among Christians and the reasons for them because I saw early on that answers from God are not hard to get.
The bottom line is pride.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "you read in to things in my comments that aren't there"
I'm not trying to get into a discussion or debate on this issue and I say this just for your consideration:
I think when people speak, the range of hearing is phenomenally large, from those who "just don't get it," to those who understand far more was revealed than the speaker ever intended or considered. Much is communicated that's not plainly articulated -- sometimes intentional, sometimes not, sometimes unknown.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I don't think I used the word "respect." I don't respect lies, or the promotion of them. I hate hearing them and I don't even enjoy bearing with twisted explanations of them, but I recognize the need to love my brother even if and when he is wrong."
Please understand that those remarks were not a subtle indictment of anything you said at all. I was just trying to express how accurately I like communication to be. I very rarely try to be obtuse.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod cont2
The stark reality is that it's OBVIOUS to me that God has FILLED His Word with paradoxes and the problem that presents is that it requires GETTING WISDOM FROM GOD to put together diametrically opposed doctrines, over which "Christians" prefer polarization rather than God's way of humility, love and HEARING HIM. In virtually all doctrinal disagreements, just like philosophical arguments, both sides have truth and error.
Pride says, "No. I KNOW!"
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@911dispatcher
then again I would have to disagree.
theembracedofgod 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod Disagreement is part of life. It's also the way reasonable men start out who eventually come to see eye to eye. If you'll remember, Moses disagreed with God on destroying Israel and God adjusted His perspective to agree with Moses. Right or wrong?
Remember I said, "I suggest God COULD have put the Bible in Calvin's words." This is true, yet He didn't. Yet, it's not the Scripture you prefer but Calvin.
What's wrong with this picture?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod Allow me to remind you that I am not Arminian and predestination is so clearly presented in the Word of God that anyone who denies it is simply being dishonest with Scripture.
Furthermore, when one compares Rev. 13:8 and Eph. 1:4 with Rev. 20:15, how can they not see the evident fallacy of Arminianism?
So, for a moment, you're happy, but what happens when I show you the Scriptures that expose the errors of Calvinism?
Ever consider loyalty to ANY other than God is idolatry?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "then again I would have to disagree."
With what EXACTLY did you disagree in *that* post?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I would dismiss that assumption that there are errors of calvin's systematic theology."
I wonder if you understand that you've said, "Calvin explains the Bible better than God."
No, I'm sure you don't. I'll tone it down. "Calvinism communicates what the Bible doesn't." Better? No?
How about, "Calvinism is clearer than the Bible."
It that's not true, then why do we need Calvin? That's not intended to be rhetorical. I suggest God COULD have put the Bible in Calvin's words.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@911dispatcher I'm sorry but your creating a strawman fallacy, and to be quite honest... I don't like to speak to dishonest and irrational people. You assume that no one can speak in inspiration of the holy spirit thus confirming scripture. I believe that you are in error. Calvin had very good theology, The man knew what he was talking about when all Context of scripture is applied.
please stop responding to my comments.
theembracedofgod 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I'm sorry but your creating a strawman fallacy"
I am? Is it possible that you're mistaken? Is it possible that pride of theology has darkened your understanding?
I think you and your opponents are exceptionally proud of your very biased doctrines which both lack the wisdom and clear teaching of the Word of God in favor of men's.
Your contention towards one another is evidence both of your pride and your disobedience to God's Word in the area of love of the brethren.
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "You assume that no one can speak in inspiration of the holy spirit thus confirming scripture."
Not only do I not assume such, I don't believe such. Why would you jump to such a conclusion? The anointing of the HS is precious and the primary way we should initially learn truth when we're in darkness in any area.
Plus you accuse me of being irrational and dishonest? I point back to my earlier remarks about love and relationships. Would you say those things to your father?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I believe that you are in error."
We're all in error. Do you really think you know someone who is not in error? If you do, then I suggest that shows you're brainwashed by something and someone other than the Holy Spirit.
If we're agreed there, why is my error worse than yours and why is my error so severe that you don't even bother to address it specifically but just dismiss me out of hand?
Remember what I said about pride and relationships?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
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@theembracedofgod "Calvin had very good theology, The man knew what he was talking about when all Context of scripture is applied."
So now, we've gone from God's Spirit confirming someone's words to your confirming all of Calvin's theology. Where do you find that deed justified by "two or three witnesses"?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "please stop responding to my comments."
Can you give me "two or three witnesses" to justify that? Can you, before your brothers, present any legitimate evidence that I was "irrational" or dishonest?
Are you familiar with, "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"? James 1:19
Do you think you're being obedient to it?
Or proud?
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship."
I challenge you to show me ANY Scriptural support that any such difference even exists. If ALL the law is contained in two commandments and the second is like the first, then nothing is outside of relationship. We treat everyone the way we do because of relationship. There are no exceptions. If you think there are, show me (of *course* I mean "in the Bible").
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@theembracedofgod "I'm speaking in the sense of theology not in personal relationship."
I would say, "In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's completely obvious that ALMOST all the conflict between these two factions is because of unloving relationships," but I've already said it, haven't I? ;-)
911dispatcher 3 months ago
@canucksteel Quite a DUMB remark. If believing is a choice, then the will is MOST DEFINITELY involved in believing. If believing isn't a choice, then there's no reason to preach the Gospel.
911dispatcher 1 year ago