Will is mental. It's the only comprehensive understanding of the concept. The mass of the brain is not mental but may perhaps produce mentality, and if so, some connotation of the word physical may be ascribed to mentality and also will. But I think that obscures it. If physical is everything, then the concept has no specific feature to distinguish it from non-physical. So I use physical for things with mass etc and mental for the mental, but bear in mind I'm no dualist. It's just practical.
cont... so with that in mind, with experiments it seems time duration between neurons and thoughts suggest that it is the physical that dictate the mind and not the mind that dictates the movement of neurons. But even knowing this, I have a hard time believing the mind has no impact at all. Why would something so vivid have no impact? How could it come about without evolutionary selection pressure, and why would merely neurons motivate discussion if meaning of a discussion is an epiphenomenon?
Perhaps 'will' is the reactions or responses in biological creatures that are dependent on physical circumstances and understanding. I'm still unsure what 'will power' is. The brain is always active unless it's dead. By 'will power' do u mean that part or process of one's brain that is active when one uses 'will'?
To me the idea the self is an "illusion"does make scenes. If their is no self then their is no body being fooled. The idea of will being totally free can't exist so their has to be some limt to the will can do.
@Darkwolverine06 I believe the 'self' must be a real object, in as far as we are separate brain/minds. For it is clear that I can not use my 'will' to directly control the environment or others, unlike my own body which I do directly influence, or at least have the feeling of control. And others can't cause me to move unless through physical force or persuasion. But i know the 'self' is far more complicating than that.
Frankly to me that debate really is one of two false choices. "Free will" is ill-descriptive given what we know and "determinist" is also. Even a fully classically mechanical system can have extreme levels of unpredictability due to non-linear effects and unstable bifurcations. And QM of course just pushes that even further. But even if we admit indeterminancy into the mix I don't think "free" is clearly the right word. So to me this debate is just bound up in a wrong semantic game.
yay for research, but how could it possibly help your "free" will idea. What could it find to support it? I don't think that idea qualifies as a hypothesis or theory.
@esaman : I don't have a free will idea of the kind you mean. I just want to know how it all works more than I know now. Informing me on how will works will help my idea of will be better constructed. I don't have a free will idea, I believe will is a real phenomenon, and so people think that.
...the theory was that the mind, or will, with all of it's memories and traits, coyuld be transferred to a CPU, and placed in a virtual reality environment....forever, or until a suitable biosynthesoid body could be constructed to hous the intellect. The operation is known as a Corpus Collosum Transfer. The project directors did not doubt the existence of "self", but they perceived it as the product of physical being, and it is organic, mechanical (can be tweaked), and self aware: worth saving.
@Qntkka I have this feeling that by the time we figure out how do this kind of memory backup we won't be worth saving, we'll be the regretted cultures of 2012 hahaha. I wonder who would be chosen if the procedure was rare or hard.
@pyrrho314 - Four: Let me just make it clearer... by maths and imagery... when you see a child in danger and lift a car up... and have super human strength... so you would put a picture of someone you really loved in front of you photo-shopped as hurt and see if it makes you act... get stronger will power... and so on. I believe there are things that come from deep in the spiritual consciousness, and from the environment that power the will to do things. Another example is music, and wise words.
Please, excuse my typos, and tortuous writing style. :) At least twenty years ago, there was a group of scientists dedicated to creating a type of immortality. There were the people who engaged in attempts to preserve living tissue in stasis, and a group that saw the body as inferior...but the mind as salvageable. One of the methods of saving the "mind", was to physically wire the corpus collosum (sometime close to death) to a type of "blank slate" collector that would digitize the mind ...
Hey, Pyrrho! The conversaion has moved back into physical laws, functions, machinery...BUT, your opponents are not addressing the organic machinery, or how it works. The right and left hemispheres can function separately, or in cooperation with each other. Each hemisphere can display all of the traits of personality, though the neural pathways must be reworked to restore/emulate some cognitive functions normally designated to it's opposite. The Corpus Collosum connects the two, to become one.
@Qntkka : the divisibility of consciousness is pretty fascinating and that's a big example. It seems to me that consciousness is made of subconsciousness, which is consciousness of the parts on their own scale.
@pyrrho314 - Three: why is this relevant to will... because you then know if emotions and thoughts in the body create the will power to do things. If they don't then you would have to work out how strongly environment and what you watched encouraged your will, and created will power and what the will came from... IE: food, if you eat certain foods did it make you more inclined to follow your own will, or more intelligent to determine things better. Smells... maths... images... and so on.
@pyrrho314 - Two: once you work out if atoms are affect by thoughts or feelings... because it could also be the feeling or belief in feeling that affected them. You could then work out how this was done. Use it in music... films... and so on to create the atmosphere you wanted. (is this done now?) - Any ways once you work out this you would then determine if it comes out of just he brain and some area in the brain (pineal gland) - or if it comes from heart or whole body.
@pyrrho314 - One: Well it depends what you mean by meta physics... if you could some how interact with the atomic structures around you with thinking... or lets say if you looked the atomic structures round the mind when thinking and see if they was affected by thinking you might be able to determine if telepathy was possible... This would help with understanding instinct and feelings better because it would show that the thinks we think affect the environment we was in. Creating atmosphere.
Will is mental. It's the only comprehensive understanding of the concept. The mass of the brain is not mental but may perhaps produce mentality, and if so, some connotation of the word physical may be ascribed to mentality and also will. But I think that obscures it. If physical is everything, then the concept has no specific feature to distinguish it from non-physical. So I use physical for things with mass etc and mental for the mental, but bear in mind I'm no dualist. It's just practical.
Censeo 1 month ago
cont... so with that in mind, with experiments it seems time duration between neurons and thoughts suggest that it is the physical that dictate the mind and not the mind that dictates the movement of neurons. But even knowing this, I have a hard time believing the mind has no impact at all. Why would something so vivid have no impact? How could it come about without evolutionary selection pressure, and why would merely neurons motivate discussion if meaning of a discussion is an epiphenomenon?
Censeo 1 month ago
I shall look up anaesthesia and draw my conclusions
sausage4mash 1 month ago
What does the Biblè™ say about this?
thesoundengine 1 month ago
Perhaps 'will' is the reactions or responses in biological creatures that are dependent on physical circumstances and understanding. I'm still unsure what 'will power' is. The brain is always active unless it's dead. By 'will power' do u mean that part or process of one's brain that is active when one uses 'will'?
enfomy 1 month ago
To me the idea the self is an "illusion"does make scenes. If their is no self then their is no body being fooled. The idea of will being totally free can't exist so their has to be some limt to the will can do.
Darkwolverine06 1 month ago
@Darkwolverine06 I believe the 'self' must be a real object, in as far as we are separate brain/minds. For it is clear that I can not use my 'will' to directly control the environment or others, unlike my own body which I do directly influence, or at least have the feeling of control. And others can't cause me to move unless through physical force or persuasion. But i know the 'self' is far more complicating than that.
enfomy 1 month ago
Frankly to me that debate really is one of two false choices. "Free will" is ill-descriptive given what we know and "determinist" is also. Even a fully classically mechanical system can have extreme levels of unpredictability due to non-linear effects and unstable bifurcations. And QM of course just pushes that even further. But even if we admit indeterminancy into the mix I don't think "free" is clearly the right word. So to me this debate is just bound up in a wrong semantic game.
socrates856 1 month ago
@socrates856 : that's what I've been saying... about discussing will power instead of will freedom.
pyrrho314 1 month ago
yay for research, but how could it possibly help your "free" will idea. What could it find to support it? I don't think that idea qualifies as a hypothesis or theory.
esaman 1 month ago
@esaman : I don't have a free will idea of the kind you mean. I just want to know how it all works more than I know now. Informing me on how will works will help my idea of will be better constructed. I don't have a free will idea, I believe will is a real phenomenon, and so people think that.
pyrrho314 1 month ago
...the theory was that the mind, or will, with all of it's memories and traits, coyuld be transferred to a CPU, and placed in a virtual reality environment....forever, or until a suitable biosynthesoid body could be constructed to hous the intellect. The operation is known as a Corpus Collosum Transfer. The project directors did not doubt the existence of "self", but they perceived it as the product of physical being, and it is organic, mechanical (can be tweaked), and self aware: worth saving.
Qntkka 1 month ago
@Qntkka I have this feeling that by the time we figure out how do this kind of memory backup we won't be worth saving, we'll be the regretted cultures of 2012 hahaha. I wonder who would be chosen if the procedure was rare or hard.
TekLok 1 month ago
@TekLok Chosen? Such a thing would be ceased by todays Caesars. Corpulent cats. Bush and his superiors and all them ‘orrible devils.
Charlesdance 1 month ago
@Charlesdance Yeah I'm sure the Vatican will get their hands on the technology too, never need a new pope again, just a new operating system.
TekLok 1 month ago
@pyrrho314 - Four: Let me just make it clearer... by maths and imagery... when you see a child in danger and lift a car up... and have super human strength... so you would put a picture of someone you really loved in front of you photo-shopped as hurt and see if it makes you act... get stronger will power... and so on. I believe there are things that come from deep in the spiritual consciousness, and from the environment that power the will to do things. Another example is music, and wise words.
TheaDragonSpirit 1 month ago
Please, excuse my typos, and tortuous writing style. :) At least twenty years ago, there was a group of scientists dedicated to creating a type of immortality. There were the people who engaged in attempts to preserve living tissue in stasis, and a group that saw the body as inferior...but the mind as salvageable. One of the methods of saving the "mind", was to physically wire the corpus collosum (sometime close to death) to a type of "blank slate" collector that would digitize the mind ...
Qntkka 1 month ago
Hey, Pyrrho! The conversaion has moved back into physical laws, functions, machinery...BUT, your opponents are not addressing the organic machinery, or how it works. The right and left hemispheres can function separately, or in cooperation with each other. Each hemisphere can display all of the traits of personality, though the neural pathways must be reworked to restore/emulate some cognitive functions normally designated to it's opposite. The Corpus Collosum connects the two, to become one.
Qntkka 1 month ago
@Qntkka : the divisibility of consciousness is pretty fascinating and that's a big example. It seems to me that consciousness is made of subconsciousness, which is consciousness of the parts on their own scale.
pyrrho314 1 month ago
@pyrrho314 - Three: why is this relevant to will... because you then know if emotions and thoughts in the body create the will power to do things. If they don't then you would have to work out how strongly environment and what you watched encouraged your will, and created will power and what the will came from... IE: food, if you eat certain foods did it make you more inclined to follow your own will, or more intelligent to determine things better. Smells... maths... images... and so on.
TheaDragonSpirit 1 month ago
@pyrrho314 - Two: once you work out if atoms are affect by thoughts or feelings... because it could also be the feeling or belief in feeling that affected them. You could then work out how this was done. Use it in music... films... and so on to create the atmosphere you wanted. (is this done now?) - Any ways once you work out this you would then determine if it comes out of just he brain and some area in the brain (pineal gland) - or if it comes from heart or whole body.
TheaDragonSpirit 1 month ago
@pyrrho314 - One: Well it depends what you mean by meta physics... if you could some how interact with the atomic structures around you with thinking... or lets say if you looked the atomic structures round the mind when thinking and see if they was affected by thinking you might be able to determine if telepathy was possible... This would help with understanding instinct and feelings better because it would show that the thinks we think affect the environment we was in. Creating atmosphere.
TheaDragonSpirit 1 month ago