@christoferL I can't really comment on religious jargon. Language manipulation and "in-group" thinking are a nasty hurdle to jump for an outsider. How do you define "relationship with Christ"?
@JustBusiness17 I was serious about that question. It seems to me, "relationship with Christ" has abstract meaning attached to it beyond what we would normally ascribe to the word 'relationship'. From observing others who use this phrase, they are usually describing something completely benign like the thoughts evoked while reading the bible or an appreciation for nature... How do you define "relationship with Christ"?
@christoferL Well I'm not going to go looking through 500 videos looking for a particular instance when you clearly articulate what your "relationship with Christ" consists of. Implied I was "selling short your relationship with Christ" and I'm curious what that even means.
If you can't describe it, that's fine. It just strengthens my belief that the phrase is nothing more than an irrational construct which lacks any significant meaning. Sorry for selling short your self induced goose bumps!
@JustBusiness17 My relationship with Christ is like that of a father to a son, a brother to a brother, student to His master... He lives in me and through me and through all that is. He holds everything to together and allows all things to fall apart... He is the light and the Way - a voice that speaks to the heart - He is empowering and uplifting. Loving and forgiving. bold and beautiful. He is the One who accepts my despite myself because I am humbled by His Gospel - eternally grateful
@christoferL Can anything in that description be taken literally? It sounds more like a poem than anything truly meaningful...
Let me ask you this, have you ever used any of the 5 senses to communicate with Christ. Sight, sound, touch, taste, smell? If not, how do you communicate?
@JustBusiness17 Thats hard to communicate - because He I have seen Him work - heard His voice to lead - felt His touch to move - but I don't know that i have ever smelled Him... then, of course - there is the Spirit - who communicates through indescribable ways - combining all 6 senses like a orchestra playing its passage...
Also the image of Jesus with long hair, its actually dionysus. Its pagan and blasphemous.. such a tragedy that we hang up a pagan God as our own precious LORD.
And don't forget to start studying up on Sabbath. That's one thing that though the book doesn't delve into very much has several lasting implications on the Christian Church and God's eternal purpose.
...does the Bible describe a way to do church or rather describe what it looks like when a person is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the gospel of Jesus Christ and BECOMES THE CHURCH. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT IF WE ALL MOVE OUT INTO A BUNCH OF HOUSES THATS GOING TO ALL OF THE SUDDEN MAKE US THE CHURCH? We must be born again by God not by man. One who is born again becomes the body of Christ becomes the church and does not limit his experience to a building or a house..peace
@MrSpiritBorn Amen! I would like to put it this way, if I may. One who is born again by the Spirit of God is adopted into the Body of Christ and is a stone in that Church. They are the Church. I can worship the Lord where ever I am be it in my apartment, outdoors in the woods, I do not need a "building" or Temple to go to. We are now the body of Christ, believers of the Cross, crucified with Christ and raised with Him in the Heavenlies. WE ARE THE BODY, no tradition, no 'ism's to bind us.
There is so much more to it than this. Pagan Christianity just scratches the surface. I recommends checking out Lew White's articles on fossilizedcustoms[dot]com and his youtube videos under username torahinstitute. Shalom truth seekers!
In order to really search for our Lord Jesus Christ, we habe to question everything and check it according to the word of GOD. If we do that, we will end up being the enemies of so called 'christianity'.
True love for the Lord will not allow any kind of tolerance and the respect fot 'tradition'. Keep moving on my brother and don't let these churchies bother you too much - look up and live!
The Church is Christ's Bride. He is the One that takes care of her. Read Ephesians 5.
There needs to be organization within any group that meets, elsewise you have nothing but chaos. I cannot worship God amidst chaos.
Barna should stick with his poll taking. At least with that he has a bit more credibility. It's obvious Barna and Viola do not have a good understanding of history and scripture. Just another Christian fad that I hope passes sooner than later.
Pagan Christianity nails it. I left the institutional church and didn't know why till I read PC. Followers of Christ are small, churchians and religous people are numerous.
The only error I might point out in your initial analysis is the presumption that God or the Holy Spirit needs proper conditions in order to move through the Christian Body. Perhaps a looser worship style would be best. I just don't think God is limited by our faults in any way, shape or form. And I'm sure you didn't mean to give that impression either.
Edge - actually I agree with you - the Holy Spirit will move where ever and when ever He wishes - but I do believe that when we live by a boxed in schedule- a formatted service plan - it can change things... condition people - train them... even diminish their very ability to grow and thrive
One issue I've found in the book however is the mentioning of there being no leader. Ask any group of people who their leader is. The one who says "we have no leader"... There's your leader.
Another thing I want to point out is Viola (Barna never wrote the original, he was added in a more recent edition however), has a new book out called "Reimagining Church: Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity".
Chris, you are fighting years and years of ingrained indoctrination with a lot of these people. You won't be able to answer all of the questions. These people have to read the book, agree or disagree with it, and move on. You'll kill yourself trying to justify yourself. Go with what God gives you and pray that their eyes will be opened to it as well.
I told you that you'd be opening up a can of worms reviewing this on YT. Some people love their man-made traditions more than truth.
I bought the book and started to read it. I didn't get far before I realised I already knew all the things it contained. This is why I left the brick and morter church in the first place. In church, our worship is directed away from Jesus and tward the world. I came out years ago. If you are looking for Jesus,He's not in there.
Chris, I don't need a book (besides the Bible) to show me what is wrong with the church.
As you know though, the Christian Church in China is largely made up of underground home churches. Now I ask you is this because they want it this way or is it because of necessity? In other words would they still go to home churches if they could go to churches?
NUd - I didn't need the book to show me what was wrong - but it was facinating to learn where it all came from and to read their perspectives on how it is crippling our churches today... as for China and home churches - I am sure they would 'rather' go to a building to worship - its human nature to hide our true natures (homes) from others... one of the reasons people don't bond in Christianity as we should is because we aren't going to each other's homes... so I believe. Things are in the dark.
I have no plans of leaving my current church as of yet. PastorJF is an awesome brother - and I am waiting on him to read the book - so we can discuss it - and hopefully make some changes to our congregation. I know its unlikely - but I have to see this through with him - as he is a true blue brother.
The house church movement is rife with heresies precisely because they tend to think that they can ignore 2000 years of theological development. I don't fear house churches because they usually implode within 5 years. The are usually full of lone ranger biblicists who can't submit to any authority other than themselves. The concern is the shipwrecked lives that are left in the wake. Many simply leave the faith altogether.
prem - if by 2000 yrs of development you are referring to the Catholic Religion - or the Protestant adaptations of Catholicism - then it should be ignored... thats the entire point. Its funny how you make it a question of submitting to authority when all this book is doing is questioning why we ceased following our one True authority in favor of 2000yrs of theological development.
This is why the Reformers were right in seeking Reformation, and not revolution, and why they were justifiably as hard on the Anabaptists as they were the Papists.
The last thing the Church needs is a group of Me-And-My-Bible house churches reinventing every heresy that has been addressed in the last 2000 years.
'What' is why? Can you not see with your own eyes and ears what is an isn't the Way? Why re-invent a heresy when you can simply do what was done in the beginning? What is so bad about that? It seems that the most religious Christians really fear idea of home churches...
Read your new testament closer Chris. The churches had tons of problems, in which the apostles were running around from church to church addressing some very serious issues... I don't fear home churches because they are largely irrelevant. They think they are relevant because they somehow repristinated themselves, but the fact is, it's just another Fad being fed American Evangelicals by Christian Authors who themselves refuse to hold to orthodoxy.
So the answer to those old problems was to create a new regime modeled after pagan systems (or even the Pharisees at best) - thus creating far more troubling heresies? This isn't even about the 'home church movement' - though thats an interesting distraction - its about the heresies that have perverted the truth.
The problem with all restorationist movements is that they believe that Acts was some golden age of the Church to which we need to return. Perhaps you would like us to emulate the church at Corinth, or maybe those in Galatia who had accepted another Gospel?
The bride of Christ is being made complete throughout history. God intends for her to grow and mature until Christ's return.
Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. It has had its ups and downs but the overall trajectory is toward completeness. At this moment in time, thanks to folks like Barna, evangelicalism is in a mess, but not for the reasons that you cite. Rather, it is because it has abandoned sound theology, has not discipled its members, diluted the sacraments, and has adopted superficial worship.
premoderne - I'm amazed what you call ups and downs... and how you judge overall trajectories - and what you then turn around and blame Barna for... the fact is the whole religion is messed up... and the roots of most of it spawn from the 4th century... and those roots have held fast ever since...
Even during the darkest years during the Middle Ages, the Church was still a significant force for truth goodness and beauty and transformed barbarian cultures all over Europe with the Gospel. Further, the explosion of Christianity in the 200 years following the Reformation cannot be denied. Every aspect of culture was dominated by Christian influence.
The West is in a period of decline which began at the beginning of the 20th century in Europe but not because pastors, elders and deacons exist, and not because we meet in houses of worship. Rather, it is because of bad theology which has led to bad worship. Willow Creek, George Barna's brainchild is exhibit A.
I would have to adamantly disagree with you - if not for the Holy Spirit there would be no Christianity - and while the 'explosion' is undeniable - the quality of the religion is questionable at best. And whether or not we can look at the influence the homogenized Christianity with any pride is also questionable at best. The church has not been teaching the Way in many many instances which I'll cover in future videos. GBU permoderne
Are you aware that the early Christians only met in homes where they were kicked out of the synagogues, and otherwise continued to meet in the synagogues on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week.
from Strong's - 1) a bringing together, gathering (as of fruits), a contracting 2) in the NT, an assembling together of men, an assembly of men 3) a synagogue (Jewish)
I agree that its a word with multiple meaning - just as church means multiple things today - and in the days of the Apostles - one such meaning was synagog - but that apparently wasn't the most popular meaning of the word... according to Strong's Concordance...
The "Lord's day" is NOT the first day of the week. There is no Scripture backing this heresy up. Biblically, the "Lord's day" is the "day of the LORD" spoken by the prophets concerning the return of Christ and by Peter as well.
2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of YHWH will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
Also, your "feelings" about the Reformation don't matter. Now that you've checked this out, you owe it to yourself to check out what the reformation was about. Don't be like Jeff and his bunch and simply refuse or disregard this.
Walt - what's your problem with Barna? He is a well respected Christian researcher! And I have checked out what the reformation was all about - and all it did was scrape away the worst of the Catholic Church - doing very little to actually return to the original Church Jesus left us...
George Barna wrote in his book, "marketing the church", that "the audience is sovereign, not the message". You have to understand Chris, that George Barna is a master marketer, and he's picked up on the latest Christian Fad and he's feeding off of it.
Whatever Mr Barna may be - his research lines right up with mine - and he didn't write it alone - and home churching isn't a fad - its a movement... and its happening because the modern churches are not capable of functioning as 'churches' were meant to...
As waltherchemnitz has pointed out, Barna was heavily involved in creating the Seeker Sensitive Business Model Mega Church Growth Strategies that were implemented all over the U.S. in the 80's and 90's. Now, we are to accept his highly revisionist version of church history in order to fuel the current emergent church fad. Please....read some real church history like Philip Schaff or Kenneth Latourette before you toss out 2000 years of Christian practice.
'highly revised'? I have studied church history for years - it was one of the things that I've always been drawn to... and if you guys think that the churches of today are the same as what Jesus and the Apostles left us - than all I can say is God bless you - I hope its working for you.
Again, please tell me about the pure, unadulterated church at Corinth, and about those churches in Galatia which Paul rebuked for forsaking the Gospel.
Uh....are you telling me that Corinth was practicing communion as the Apostles intended? People were actually sick and dying from how they were approaching the Table. Was Peter doing things as the Apostles intended when he refused to eat with the Gentiles?
Chris... I'm an LCMS Lutheran. Have you been to one of our churches so you can know what we do? Are you familiar with the Liturgy of St. James? Or Chrysotom's? Or any historic Liturgy?
And what's more, you say you studied church history, but you've repeatedly told me you don't know about the historic confessions of the church. How can that be? How would you know if someone's historical presentation was revised or not?
Confessions are little more than long worded rationalizations and have little to do with historical dates, facts, and happenings... I have been to Lutherian church - its not too dif than a Catholic Church...
unbiblical? I really wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth. I am fully aware the man has always been able to make just about and doctrine Biblical in one sense or another.
Please re-read what I wrote. I was not putting words in your mouth. I was asking you a question. I was seeking clarification. Have you looked into LCMS liturgy and if so, what parts do you find biblical and what parts unbiblical?
Chris, have you read the Nicene Creed, Definition of Chalcedon, Athanasian Creed, Augsburg Confession, Second Helvetic Confession, Belgic Confession, and Westminster Confession? You are calling these long worded rationalizations? These were written to address the very ditches that you want to re-invent.
ummm - listen -if you want to follow these 'creeds and confessions' go for it... but much of it is NOT in line with the Way of Jesus and the Apostles - should I break it down for you?
Chris, I would appreciate it if you would answer my question. Have you read and studied these creeds and confessions and the context of what they were addressing historically? If so, which ones?
Let's ask a very basic question. Do you agree with the Nicene Creed?
Alright... What a moron. The Augsburg confession was written on occasion of the Smalcadic Churches and princes being summoned before the Holy Roman Emperor. The confession addresses the accusations made against the reformational churches by Rome. This "long worded rationalization" was instrumental in convincing the Holy Roman Emperor to allow the princes to keep their heads. There were two copies, one in Latin, the other in German. The confession was allowed to be read (More)
In German so that the people could readily understand it. It's a concise statement of the Christian Faith intended to stand against the Pope, the Devil and the World. Date of the confession: June 25, 1530. Has everything to do with history, date and facts.
Christians don't NEED a concise statement of faith - the more specific a statement we make the more prone we are to be wrong when it comes to the almighty God - we need faith in the Son of God - period...
"and home churching isn't a fad - its a movement... "
That is what IHOP claims to be as well, Chris. Use caution here. These people who are responding to your video (waltherchemnitz and Hetgow in particular) are not like the Jeffy crowd. You would do well to listen to them.
Hetgow's video especially screams warning because of what I know of both the "prophetic" crowd and the Emergent Church. Look at my channel and watch a playlist called "An Insiders Warning - The Lakeland Revival" (Cont)
(Cont) I will send you a video with some information on IHOP that you should find alarming if you don't know it already. If Hetgow is right in what he says then there's danger indeed. Be careful.
Have you ever tried to ask a question during most sermons - or to share a word given from God at the moment you got it during a sermon? The whole thing is designed to silence the congregation... additionally - have you ever participated in an organic meeting led by the Holy Spirit? I assure you it is anything but disorderly...
No. I have more respect for the one called to teach then to interupt. I have, however, asked questions afterward, and at other appointed times of study.
There is truly only One teacher (Mt 23) - but we should respect all brothers the same in my opinion... asking after feeds you well enough - but not the entire body who may have benefitted from your question and answer...
I always felt like there should be a Q&A period after the sermon, while everyone is still in attendence - so everybody benifits - that would also surely weed out those whose first priority wasn't God (can't miss the football game :) ).
Upon more thought on this matter, I believe it is a matter of congregation size.
I have had opportunities to preach. I don't do it in a dominating fashion, though. I involve the congregation, asking them questions, and am willing to answer questions from them. But this is due to the small size of the congregation. Such a thing would not be feasible in many of today's churches.
prom - same here - but I have to say - I don't think most of the large churches should be that large - they can do very little to connect with the majority of the congregation - so it becomes more like a show - where people attend...
In my opinion, some churches are large because the people are entertained (like seeker driven churches) Their GOAL is numbers.
But some are large because it's getting harder and harder to find good Bible teaching, and when one is found, people flock to them. Those hungry for the word, at least.
So are the authors saying that because the institutional Christian church incorporates elements also used by pagans, this is somehow keeping people from Christ?
Of course not - pagans used doors - chairs - food - etc... what we have to be careful of is when paganism changes the function of the church... such as with the pulpit and sermons (vs. full participation of all)... if you mess with the workings of a clock too much - the clock stops working...
There are several problems with it - while the book points to the pagan origin of the pulpit - the real problem is that it exalts the speaker - and makes the congregation spectators instead of participators... the point being - there is nothing 'special' about the clergy - they are no better or worse than anyone else - and all the pulpit does is glorify them...
Ezra used a pulpit to read the book of the law to the people. Nehemiah chapter 8
Surely some congregations exalt the speaker, but I cannot agree that "all the pulpit does is glorify them" If one's purpose is to teach or bring the Word to the flock, what is wrong with using a platform so that he is seen by those being addressed?
Clergy are no better than anyone else, but unless others are forbidden to step upon it, how is it a place of exaltation?
Ezra was a Jew, not a Christian. The problem with using a platform is it does prohibit the interaction that was in the original churches. As far as clergy goes - you and I may know they are no better than anyone else - they may even state it repeatedly - but the title - the robes (in many instances) - the implied 'honor' - it is all aimed at making the 'priest - pastor - reverend' exalted.
I fail to see the difference. It would have been unholy for the Jews to incorporate a pagan tool, would it not? The purpose for it's use should be the same now as it was then. If it is not, then it is the fault of the people, not the object.
How does it prohibit interaction?
No, clergy are no better than anyone else. Not in God's eyes. They are exercising their gifts just as all should.
But again, it is PEOPLE who exalt them, not objects.
um - they were still homes - some with large rooms (gutted) for meetings - but not a building dedicated exclusively as a 'house of God' - as for 'ordained' anything - it never meant then what it means today.
They had icons on the walls in the tradition of the synagogues. Of course they were churches. If there were any reason for someone to continue living there it would have been to keep up appearances. They do the same thing today where the Church is persecuted. The furniture is for liturgical purposes, but it's hidden in a house. A priest will arrive and hear confessions before they have Mass, and then they'll flip it back into a house so nobody is the wiser. People disperse at varied times.
Do u have references to back this statement up? 'They had icons on the walls?' - and what priest? we are all priests if we are in Christ! Do you not see that?
Yes. If you google - dura europos good shepherd - you should find it, although the city was seiged in middle of the 3rd century. The third result is a wikipedia image of the icon of Christ the Good Shepherd.
Yes we are all priests, but St Paul Rom 15:15-17 was proud to offer sacrifice of the gentiles in priestly service of the liturgy. Acts they ordained men for special tasks. Not all priests are the same or the Apostles would not have had authority to rule at the first council.
Did you also Google the paleochristian art, some of which may be 1st cent, or consider that Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism, which did have liturgical vestments and garb. Even the phylactery is mentioned in the new testament. 2000 years later it's still worn. The Liturgy is recognizable. The Scripture is recognizable. We still have baptisteries.
we are getting off the path here... they did not have dedicated church buildings - people lived in houses that held meetings of Christians... and the meetings were not formatted services that restricted the flow of the Holy Spirit... art is art... not a church
I'm not off the path. It's not just art. It's Iconography. It's in the catacombs where they would celebrate Mass over the bones of the saints. They didn't just drive down to kmart and pick up a pretty picture and frame. When an icon is written the person engaged in the task fasts and prays throughout the entire process.
You might might consider going to an Orthodox Divine liturgy.
It's a complete tradition. That book is doing more harm than good by catering to such prejudices.
Icons - you know - have just about completely given up the art of drawing because I do not believe in 'icons' - celebrating Mass over bones? Thats not what Jesus taught - and thats one of the focuses of this book - getting to the truth of the matter - not the legends and traditions...
Chris, they had THE House of God, the Temple in Jerusalem.
That is where the origional church (Jerusalem, not Rome) congregated. It's all through the book of Acts.
In fact, you could make the case that persecution came upon the church because they were DISOBEYING God because Jesus told them to go forth in all of the world preaching the Gospel and they stayed in the Temple in Jerusalem.
That is also perhaps why God ended up destroying the Temple. God had moved on from that.
It was prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed in Daniel 9. Even Christ told the pharisees that their house(the temple) would be left desolate in Matthew 23.
Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet"
Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands"
SirTheistDRF - I think you are assuming that was why they worshipped in their homes. The individual home churches had about 30-35 people per church - but there were several homes with meetings in a city or a town - but they considered themselves one church and if they wanted to meet ALL together they would go to a larger facility able to accommodate them - such as Solomon's Porch (Acts 5:12). There was no interest in building churches until Constantine.
Not according to archeology. St Georgeous Church in Jordan dates to 230 AD, and it's built upon an even older church that could date back to 33-45 AD. There were plenty of Churches built before Constantine.
Yes- Acts tells us- it has become Churchianity the way it is-and so much infighting-We are to be cheerful and generous givers but the way it is with the one-man show it is corrupt- God has appointed Servant-leadship in the five-fold Ministry which is ordained by the God-See Ephesians and Corinthians-ordained elders-but these are the mature and Champion folks in to their callings-This setup we now have is way off and it does not cause growth of the members-which God wants!!!The Lord is moving-end
I grew up in a church that was against paying pastors , im sure they werent perfect either but we had elders instead . along with guest speakers . the donation money went to the utility bills , no staff at all .
very true in my old church we were spectators and payers until there was work to be done in the comunity then the pastors became the spectators , it a real shock to discover what ive been involved in was paganism , but thank God he opened my eyes
So incredibly true. In these last days the flock should quickly remove itself from "churchianity" and start organizing home fellowships where the Word Of YAH is read and everyone prays,praises YAH by singing His Word and not secular "strange fire" styles and communes with a meal and then everyone joins in in expounding the scripture with a main focus on TORAH in which Yeshua is the Living Torah and start honoring YAH's command to keep Shabbat and not the Roman apostacy of changing YAH's Torah
Now you see a glimpse of why I continue to rebel against mainstream Christianity & speak against several traditional beliefs held by the "church system"... and why I encourage people to seek the Lord in everything, instead of assuming what they have been told is the correct interpretation as taught by the church system.
I praise God for His enlightening you Chris... I look forward with joy as He continues to enlighten you in the weeks and months ahead!
But everything you said here I found out just by reading the bible.
Now you did not go into christmas but I'm sure it might be in the book and many other thing
To be a true christian and one that makes it to the end is not easy as so many let on
Like I said before we don't even know how evil we are. Isa 64:6 people try to say we can't please God but that is not what it is really saying. We are so evil that when we think we are doing
this is silly. the original church was the Catholic Church and the original church service has always involved the Eucharist and the distinction between the priest and laity.
He is responsible for the first known use of the Greek word katholikos (καθολικός), meaning "universal," "complete" and "whole" to describe the church,
you just said that the Catholic church didn't exist till later. i gave you a quote where ignatius calls the church catholic in 110 AD. The Early Church beleived in all catholic teaching. the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, the priesthood, Marian doctrines ect.
The early church was also anti-semitic. They disgarded writings such as Hebrews, Jude, Peter, Jude, John, James and Revelation because it had a "Jewish" audience.
That anti-semitism still exists today in the Greco-Roman churches.
The early church believed the teachings of the Apostles.
The early church did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary? Being that they had Jesus half brothers there that would be hard for them to believe in.
They also didnt perform rituals as seen in most churches today. The bread and wine yes. That was commanded by Christ but Chris is right on with his assessment
Catholic merely means Universal. Ignatius calls the Church Universal. He does not mean the incarnation of what we call the 'Catholic Church' today. There was a consolidation of the Church after 325 when Christianity was nationalized by Rome. This immediately caused a Schism between the Greek and Latin Church creating the Papacy and Patriachate of Constantinople as we know them today. There is absolutely nothing Biblical about a Papacy, a celibate Priesthood, or deification of Mary.
Those didn't come in till MUCH later, OTC. Marian doctrines? You mean the Queen of Heaven? Look in the scriptures and the ONLY place you see any reference to the Queen of Heaven is in Jeremiah, a reference to a pagan goddess. That is YOUR Mary. Those visions of Mary that the Catholics buy into which pormote the Ecumenism are demonic.
Mary was only a virgin until after Jesus was born. Jesus had brothers. James and Jude were Jesus's BROTHERS.
One - This isn't silly. The 'Catholic Church' was not the first church - in the sense that that neither Jesus (or Peter) wore ornate robes - the Eurcharist wasn't a wafer held in a sun disc staff - and we are ALL of the priesthood in Christ... men created a distinction between clergy and laity - not Jesus.
vlado - it truly is interesting. Its not that there shouldn't be preaching - as Paul said to Timothy - Preach the Word - but in the original church - all preached as God led them... it wasn't a paid position - and it wasn't from a stage - but amongst the brothers and sisters in Christ. We have only One master - and that is Christ... Amen!
The pagans are not and never were at fault as a whole. It was the greedy church leaders, both then and now who are behind it all. Wanna know why I feel this way? Read the parable of the 10 minas in Luke.
I never said anything about the pagans being at fault. Everyone knows it was the "church" leaders who introduced paganism into Christianity to bolster its numbers.
Christianity began as Hebraic, but now has become Greco-Roman.
Oddly enough it's true. What makes it worse is that any knowledge held by the ancient pagans has either been destroyed or hidden away from us, and those who held that knowledge were slaughtered. Eventually this was also bred out of the common folk like common house pets, which made them all the easier to control. Evidence of this is all around us.
Is it Domingo? Beyond that - is it free of the problems that have been brought into the religion? The problem isn't that those add-ons are 'evil' - its that they changed how the church should be. Its like adding filler to hamburger. If you add too much - the burger is no longer beef at all - and it no longer capable of doing what beef does... if you can - read the book... it will bring u closer to Jesus than you realize.
To answer your question, not completely. But the body of believers I fellowship with have a Christ-centered ministry. It's more relationship with people than religion that's for sure. I'll certainly look into that book for more insight! Blessings
There is quite a distortion with how the church was before. The church I go to doesn't emphasize on tithing. The place I go to is about spiritual growth. I agree with this message, because going through the motions truly doesn't allow for the holy spirit to enter. I'm just blessed that the church is more about Jesus and not about the ways of the world. Get fueled for life.
Wow... You're almost an atheist. Welcome to the world of critical thinking. A few more steps and you'll question the authority of the bible itself ;)
JustBusiness17 1 year ago
@JustBusiness17 don't sell short my relationship with Christ...
christoferL 1 year ago
@christoferL I can't really comment on religious jargon. Language manipulation and "in-group" thinking are a nasty hurdle to jump for an outsider. How do you define "relationship with Christ"?
JustBusiness17 1 year ago
@JustBusiness17 I was serious about that question. It seems to me, "relationship with Christ" has abstract meaning attached to it beyond what we would normally ascribe to the word 'relationship'. From observing others who use this phrase, they are usually describing something completely benign like the thoughts evoked while reading the bible or an appreciation for nature... How do you define "relationship with Christ"?
JustBusiness17 1 year ago
@christoferL Anxiety? Cognitive dissonance? Why no response to my responses?
JustBusiness17 11 months ago
@JustBusiness17 I dunno - there isn't much point in them - and the answers to your questions are in abundance throughout my videos...
christoferL 11 months ago
@christoferL Well I'm not going to go looking through 500 videos looking for a particular instance when you clearly articulate what your "relationship with Christ" consists of. Implied I was "selling short your relationship with Christ" and I'm curious what that even means.
If you can't describe it, that's fine. It just strengthens my belief that the phrase is nothing more than an irrational construct which lacks any significant meaning. Sorry for selling short your self induced goose bumps!
JustBusiness17 11 months ago
@JustBusiness17 My relationship with Christ is like that of a father to a son, a brother to a brother, student to His master... He lives in me and through me and through all that is. He holds everything to together and allows all things to fall apart... He is the light and the Way - a voice that speaks to the heart - He is empowering and uplifting. Loving and forgiving. bold and beautiful. He is the One who accepts my despite myself because I am humbled by His Gospel - eternally grateful
christoferL 11 months ago
@christoferL Can anything in that description be taken literally? It sounds more like a poem than anything truly meaningful...
Let me ask you this, have you ever used any of the 5 senses to communicate with Christ. Sight, sound, touch, taste, smell? If not, how do you communicate?
JustBusiness17 11 months ago
@JustBusiness17 Thats hard to communicate - because He I have seen Him work - heard His voice to lead - felt His touch to move - but I don't know that i have ever smelled Him... then, of course - there is the Spirit - who communicates through indescribable ways - combining all 6 senses like a orchestra playing its passage...
christoferL 11 months ago
Also the image of Jesus with long hair, its actually dionysus. Its pagan and blasphemous.. such a tragedy that we hang up a pagan God as our own precious LORD.
advocateforchrist 1 year ago
And don't forget to start studying up on Sabbath. That's one thing that though the book doesn't delve into very much has several lasting implications on the Christian Church and God's eternal purpose.
cocampro 1 year ago
Good response.
cocampro 1 year ago
...does the Bible describe a way to do church or rather describe what it looks like when a person is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the gospel of Jesus Christ and BECOMES THE CHURCH. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT IF WE ALL MOVE OUT INTO A BUNCH OF HOUSES THATS GOING TO ALL OF THE SUDDEN MAKE US THE CHURCH? We must be born again by God not by man. One who is born again becomes the body of Christ becomes the church and does not limit his experience to a building or a house..peace
MrSpiritBorn 1 year ago
@MrSpiritBorn Amen! I would like to put it this way, if I may. One who is born again by the Spirit of God is adopted into the Body of Christ and is a stone in that Church. They are the Church. I can worship the Lord where ever I am be it in my apartment, outdoors in the woods, I do not need a "building" or Temple to go to. We are now the body of Christ, believers of the Cross, crucified with Christ and raised with Him in the Heavenlies. WE ARE THE BODY, no tradition, no 'ism's to bind us.
ez2seeu2 1 year ago
There is so much more to it than this. Pagan Christianity just scratches the surface. I recommends checking out Lew White's articles on fossilizedcustoms[dot]com and his youtube videos under username torahinstitute. Shalom truth seekers!
rsims87 1 year ago
In order to really search for our Lord Jesus Christ, we habe to question everything and check it according to the word of GOD. If we do that, we will end up being the enemies of so called 'christianity'.
True love for the Lord will not allow any kind of tolerance and the respect fot 'tradition'. Keep moving on my brother and don't let these churchies bother you too much - look up and live!
fool99 1 year ago
The Church is Christ's Bride. He is the One that takes care of her. Read Ephesians 5.
There needs to be organization within any group that meets, elsewise you have nothing but chaos. I cannot worship God amidst chaos.
Barna should stick with his poll taking. At least with that he has a bit more credibility. It's obvious Barna and Viola do not have a good understanding of history and scripture. Just another Christian fad that I hope passes sooner than later.
JJB300 1 year ago
Pagan Christianity nails it. I left the institutional church and didn't know why till I read PC. Followers of Christ are small, churchians and religous people are numerous.
Pfsif 2 years ago
The only error I might point out in your initial analysis is the presumption that God or the Holy Spirit needs proper conditions in order to move through the Christian Body. Perhaps a looser worship style would be best. I just don't think God is limited by our faults in any way, shape or form. And I'm sure you didn't mean to give that impression either.
TheEdge012 2 years ago
Edge - actually I agree with you - the Holy Spirit will move where ever and when ever He wishes - but I do believe that when we live by a boxed in schedule- a formatted service plan - it can change things... condition people - train them... even diminish their very ability to grow and thrive
christoferL 2 years ago
One issue I've found in the book however is the mentioning of there being no leader. Ask any group of people who their leader is. The one who says "we have no leader"... There's your leader.
Another thing I want to point out is Viola (Barna never wrote the original, he was added in a more recent edition however), has a new book out called "Reimagining Church: Pursuing the Dream of Organic Christianity".
Kisk79 2 years ago
(Cont.)
And it seems to me, that he's trying to break things down and then conveniently writes another book about how to do it (his way it seems).
Kisk79 2 years ago
Right. The first to take any initiative is the leader. The one who says "let's pray", or "We can begin now"
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Chris, you are fighting years and years of ingrained indoctrination with a lot of these people. You won't be able to answer all of the questions. These people have to read the book, agree or disagree with it, and move on. You'll kill yourself trying to justify yourself. Go with what God gives you and pray that their eyes will be opened to it as well.
I told you that you'd be opening up a can of worms reviewing this on YT. Some people love their man-made traditions more than truth.
CajunPunk 2 years ago
hey this was great! Thanks for sharing the review.
ReligionThink 2 years ago
I bought the book and started to read it. I didn't get far before I realised I already knew all the things it contained. This is why I left the brick and morter church in the first place. In church, our worship is directed away from Jesus and tward the world. I came out years ago. If you are looking for Jesus,He's not in there.
lifeseeker51 2 years ago
Chris, I don't need a book (besides the Bible) to show me what is wrong with the church.
As you know though, the Christian Church in China is largely made up of underground home churches. Now I ask you is this because they want it this way or is it because of necessity? In other words would they still go to home churches if they could go to churches?
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
NUd - I didn't need the book to show me what was wrong - but it was facinating to learn where it all came from and to read their perspectives on how it is crippling our churches today... as for China and home churches - I am sure they would 'rather' go to a building to worship - its human nature to hide our true natures (homes) from others... one of the reasons people don't bond in Christianity as we should is because we aren't going to each other's homes... so I believe. Things are in the dark.
christoferL 2 years ago
ooops - NUd should've been Bud - sorry about that
christoferL 2 years ago
Forget the Steeple - FEED the People !
ThirdProverb 2 years ago
Chris - glad to see you had an open mind about reading the book. It was an eye opener for me at the time.
Do you think/feel you might be leaving your present church now ?
ThirdProverb 2 years ago
I have no plans of leaving my current church as of yet. PastorJF is an awesome brother - and I am waiting on him to read the book - so we can discuss it - and hopefully make some changes to our congregation. I know its unlikely - but I have to see this through with him - as he is a true blue brother.
christoferL 2 years ago
The house church movement is rife with heresies precisely because they tend to think that they can ignore 2000 years of theological development. I don't fear house churches because they usually implode within 5 years. The are usually full of lone ranger biblicists who can't submit to any authority other than themselves. The concern is the shipwrecked lives that are left in the wake. Many simply leave the faith altogether.
premoderne 2 years ago
prem - if by 2000 yrs of development you are referring to the Catholic Religion - or the Protestant adaptations of Catholicism - then it should be ignored... thats the entire point. Its funny how you make it a question of submitting to authority when all this book is doing is questioning why we ceased following our one True authority in favor of 2000yrs of theological development.
christoferL 2 years ago
This is why the Reformers were right in seeking Reformation, and not revolution, and why they were justifiably as hard on the Anabaptists as they were the Papists.
The last thing the Church needs is a group of Me-And-My-Bible house churches reinventing every heresy that has been addressed in the last 2000 years.
premoderne 2 years ago
'What' is why? Can you not see with your own eyes and ears what is an isn't the Way? Why re-invent a heresy when you can simply do what was done in the beginning? What is so bad about that? It seems that the most religious Christians really fear idea of home churches...
christoferL 2 years ago
Read your new testament closer Chris. The churches had tons of problems, in which the apostles were running around from church to church addressing some very serious issues... I don't fear home churches because they are largely irrelevant. They think they are relevant because they somehow repristinated themselves, but the fact is, it's just another Fad being fed American Evangelicals by Christian Authors who themselves refuse to hold to orthodoxy.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
So the answer to those old problems was to create a new regime modeled after pagan systems (or even the Pharisees at best) - thus creating far more troubling heresies? This isn't even about the 'home church movement' - though thats an interesting distraction - its about the heresies that have perverted the truth.
christoferL 2 years ago
The problem with all restorationist movements is that they believe that Acts was some golden age of the Church to which we need to return. Perhaps you would like us to emulate the church at Corinth, or maybe those in Galatia who had accepted another Gospel?
The bride of Christ is being made complete throughout history. God intends for her to grow and mature until Christ's return.
premoderne 2 years ago
so you are saying you believe the current 'church' is viable and true and Holy?
christoferL 2 years ago
Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. It has had its ups and downs but the overall trajectory is toward completeness. At this moment in time, thanks to folks like Barna, evangelicalism is in a mess, but not for the reasons that you cite. Rather, it is because it has abandoned sound theology, has not discipled its members, diluted the sacraments, and has adopted superficial worship.
premoderne 2 years ago
premoderne - I'm amazed what you call ups and downs... and how you judge overall trajectories - and what you then turn around and blame Barna for... the fact is the whole religion is messed up... and the roots of most of it spawn from the 4th century... and those roots have held fast ever since...
christoferL 2 years ago
Even during the darkest years during the Middle Ages, the Church was still a significant force for truth goodness and beauty and transformed barbarian cultures all over Europe with the Gospel. Further, the explosion of Christianity in the 200 years following the Reformation cannot be denied. Every aspect of culture was dominated by Christian influence.
premoderne 2 years ago
The West is in a period of decline which began at the beginning of the 20th century in Europe but not because pastors, elders and deacons exist, and not because we meet in houses of worship. Rather, it is because of bad theology which has led to bad worship. Willow Creek, George Barna's brainchild is exhibit A.
premoderne 2 years ago
I would have to adamantly disagree with you - if not for the Holy Spirit there would be no Christianity - and while the 'explosion' is undeniable - the quality of the religion is questionable at best. And whether or not we can look at the influence the homogenized Christianity with any pride is also questionable at best. The church has not been teaching the Way in many many instances which I'll cover in future videos. GBU permoderne
christoferL 2 years ago
Are you aware that the early Christians only met in homes where they were kicked out of the synagogues, and otherwise continued to meet in the synagogues on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week.
premoderne 2 years ago
premo - I have not read any record of that - I wonder - whats your reference?
christoferL 2 years ago
Try James 2:2. The word translated "assembly" is the greek word "sunagoge", and the same world is translated synagogue in Acts 13:43 (ESV).
premoderne 2 years ago
from Strong's - 1) a bringing together, gathering (as of fruits), a contracting 2) in the NT, an assembling together of men, an assembly of men 3) a synagogue (Jewish)
christoferL 2 years ago
So you agree that synagogue is a likely meaning for the greek sunagogue. Good.
premoderne 2 years ago
I agree that its a word with multiple meaning - just as church means multiple things today - and in the days of the Apostles - one such meaning was synagog - but that apparently wasn't the most popular meaning of the word... according to Strong's Concordance...
christoferL 2 years ago
The "Lord's day" is NOT the first day of the week. There is no Scripture backing this heresy up. Biblically, the "Lord's day" is the "day of the LORD" spoken by the prophets concerning the return of Christ and by Peter as well.
2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of YHWH will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
theheat151 2 years ago
Chris... Don't trust George Barna.
Also, your "feelings" about the Reformation don't matter. Now that you've checked this out, you owe it to yourself to check out what the reformation was about. Don't be like Jeff and his bunch and simply refuse or disregard this.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
Walt - what's your problem with Barna? He is a well respected Christian researcher! And I have checked out what the reformation was all about - and all it did was scrape away the worst of the Catholic Church - doing very little to actually return to the original Church Jesus left us...
christoferL 2 years ago
George Barna wrote in his book, "marketing the church", that "the audience is sovereign, not the message". You have to understand Chris, that George Barna is a master marketer, and he's picked up on the latest Christian Fad and he's feeding off of it.
I'll put up a video soon.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
Whatever Mr Barna may be - his research lines right up with mine - and he didn't write it alone - and home churching isn't a fad - its a movement... and its happening because the modern churches are not capable of functioning as 'churches' were meant to...
christoferL 2 years ago
As waltherchemnitz has pointed out, Barna was heavily involved in creating the Seeker Sensitive Business Model Mega Church Growth Strategies that were implemented all over the U.S. in the 80's and 90's. Now, we are to accept his highly revisionist version of church history in order to fuel the current emergent church fad. Please....read some real church history like Philip Schaff or Kenneth Latourette before you toss out 2000 years of Christian practice.
premoderne 2 years ago
'highly revised'? I have studied church history for years - it was one of the things that I've always been drawn to... and if you guys think that the churches of today are the same as what Jesus and the Apostles left us - than all I can say is God bless you - I hope its working for you.
christoferL 2 years ago
Again, please tell me about the pure, unadulterated church at Corinth, and about those churches in Galatia which Paul rebuked for forsaking the Gospel.
premoderne 2 years ago
prem - who said they didn't have problems? the point wasn't they didn't have problems - it was that they were doing it as the Apostles intended...
christoferL 2 years ago
Uh....are you telling me that Corinth was practicing communion as the Apostles intended? People were actually sick and dying from how they were approaching the Table. Was Peter doing things as the Apostles intended when he refused to eat with the Gentiles?
premoderne 2 years ago
Chris... I'm an LCMS Lutheran. Have you been to one of our churches so you can know what we do? Are you familiar with the Liturgy of St. James? Or Chrysotom's? Or any historic Liturgy?
And what's more, you say you studied church history, but you've repeatedly told me you don't know about the historic confessions of the church. How can that be? How would you know if someone's historical presentation was revised or not?
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
Confessions are little more than long worded rationalizations and have little to do with historical dates, facts, and happenings... I have been to Lutherian church - its not too dif than a Catholic Church...
christoferL 2 years ago
Chris...how much study have you done on the history of Christian liturgy? Are you saying that the elements found in a LCMS liturgy are unbiblical?
premoderne 2 years ago
unbiblical? I really wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth. I am fully aware the man has always been able to make just about and doctrine Biblical in one sense or another.
christoferL 2 years ago
Please re-read what I wrote. I was not putting words in your mouth. I was asking you a question. I was seeking clarification. Have you looked into LCMS liturgy and if so, what parts do you find biblical and what parts unbiblical?
premoderne 2 years ago
Chris, have you read the Nicene Creed, Definition of Chalcedon, Athanasian Creed, Augsburg Confession, Second Helvetic Confession, Belgic Confession, and Westminster Confession? You are calling these long worded rationalizations? These were written to address the very ditches that you want to re-invent.
premoderne 2 years ago
ummm - listen -if you want to follow these 'creeds and confessions' go for it... but much of it is NOT in line with the Way of Jesus and the Apostles - should I break it down for you?
christoferL 2 years ago
Chris, I would appreciate it if you would answer my question. Have you read and studied these creeds and confessions and the context of what they were addressing historically? If so, which ones?
Let's ask a very basic question. Do you agree with the Nicene Creed?
premoderne 2 years ago
Alright... What a moron. The Augsburg confession was written on occasion of the Smalcadic Churches and princes being summoned before the Holy Roman Emperor. The confession addresses the accusations made against the reformational churches by Rome. This "long worded rationalization" was instrumental in convincing the Holy Roman Emperor to allow the princes to keep their heads. There were two copies, one in Latin, the other in German. The confession was allowed to be read (More)
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
In German so that the people could readily understand it. It's a concise statement of the Christian Faith intended to stand against the Pope, the Devil and the World. Date of the confession: June 25, 1530. Has everything to do with history, date and facts.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
Christians don't NEED a concise statement of faith - the more specific a statement we make the more prone we are to be wrong when it comes to the almighty God - we need faith in the Son of God - period...
christoferL 2 years ago
moron - huh?
christoferL 2 years ago
"and home churching isn't a fad - its a movement... "
That is what IHOP claims to be as well, Chris. Use caution here. These people who are responding to your video (waltherchemnitz and Hetgow in particular) are not like the Jeffy crowd. You would do well to listen to them.
Hetgow's video especially screams warning because of what I know of both the "prophetic" crowd and the Emergent Church. Look at my channel and watch a playlist called "An Insiders Warning - The Lakeland Revival" (Cont)
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
(Cont) I will send you a video with some information on IHOP that you should find alarming if you don't know it already. If Hetgow is right in what he says then there's danger indeed. Be careful.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
Can sermons not be part of the full participation of all? There is one body with many different functions, and not all can be the head.
Surely you are not advocating disorder in the church.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Have you ever tried to ask a question during most sermons - or to share a word given from God at the moment you got it during a sermon? The whole thing is designed to silence the congregation... additionally - have you ever participated in an organic meeting led by the Holy Spirit? I assure you it is anything but disorderly...
christoferL 2 years ago
No. I have more respect for the one called to teach then to interupt. I have, however, asked questions afterward, and at other appointed times of study.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Let me add that I do not believe the sermon should be the highlight of the service, not should it be long and tedious.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
There is truly only One teacher (Mt 23) - but we should respect all brothers the same in my opinion... asking after feeds you well enough - but not the entire body who may have benefitted from your question and answer...
christoferL 2 years ago
I always felt like there should be a Q&A period after the sermon, while everyone is still in attendence - so everybody benifits - that would also surely weed out those whose first priority wasn't God (can't miss the football game :) ).
OlySezHey 2 years ago
Upon more thought on this matter, I believe it is a matter of congregation size.
I have had opportunities to preach. I don't do it in a dominating fashion, though. I involve the congregation, asking them questions, and am willing to answer questions from them. But this is due to the small size of the congregation. Such a thing would not be feasible in many of today's churches.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
prom - same here - but I have to say - I don't think most of the large churches should be that large - they can do very little to connect with the majority of the congregation - so it becomes more like a show - where people attend...
christoferL 2 years ago
In my opinion, some churches are large because the people are entertained (like seeker driven churches) Their GOAL is numbers.
But some are large because it's getting harder and harder to find good Bible teaching, and when one is found, people flock to them. Those hungry for the word, at least.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
So are the authors saying that because the institutional Christian church incorporates elements also used by pagans, this is somehow keeping people from Christ?
Should we get rid of anything pagans have used?
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Of course not - pagans used doors - chairs - food - etc... what we have to be careful of is when paganism changes the function of the church... such as with the pulpit and sermons (vs. full participation of all)... if you mess with the workings of a clock too much - the clock stops working...
christoferL 2 years ago
What's wrong with having a pulpit?
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
There are several problems with it - while the book points to the pagan origin of the pulpit - the real problem is that it exalts the speaker - and makes the congregation spectators instead of participators... the point being - there is nothing 'special' about the clergy - they are no better or worse than anyone else - and all the pulpit does is glorify them...
christoferL 2 years ago
Ezra used a pulpit to read the book of the law to the people. Nehemiah chapter 8
Surely some congregations exalt the speaker, but I cannot agree that "all the pulpit does is glorify them" If one's purpose is to teach or bring the Word to the flock, what is wrong with using a platform so that he is seen by those being addressed?
Clergy are no better than anyone else, but unless others are forbidden to step upon it, how is it a place of exaltation?
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Ezra was a Jew, not a Christian. The problem with using a platform is it does prohibit the interaction that was in the original churches. As far as clergy goes - you and I may know they are no better than anyone else - they may even state it repeatedly - but the title - the robes (in many instances) - the implied 'honor' - it is all aimed at making the 'priest - pastor - reverend' exalted.
christoferL 2 years ago
"Ezra was a Jew, not a Christian."
I fail to see the difference. It would have been unholy for the Jews to incorporate a pagan tool, would it not? The purpose for it's use should be the same now as it was then. If it is not, then it is the fault of the people, not the object.
How does it prohibit interaction?
No, clergy are no better than anyone else. Not in God's eyes. They are exercising their gifts just as all should.
But again, it is PEOPLE who exalt them, not objects.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
I'll start reading it once Cajun gets around to sending me my copy lol ... Seriously though, I'm looking forward to it.
WaitingforChrist 2 years ago
lol - I'm working on it.
CajunPunk 2 years ago
lol - No worries man, it's all good.
WaitingforChrist 2 years ago
House churches were gutted homes of wealthy citizens with a baptistry and religious iconography.
The earliest that I'm aware of is dura europos, which was conquered in the middle 3rd century.
As for clergy distinctions, there is in Acts the ordaining of men to serve as deacons.
BeingBob 2 years ago
um - they were still homes - some with large rooms (gutted) for meetings - but not a building dedicated exclusively as a 'house of God' - as for 'ordained' anything - it never meant then what it means today.
christoferL 2 years ago
They had icons on the walls in the tradition of the synagogues. Of course they were churches. If there were any reason for someone to continue living there it would have been to keep up appearances. They do the same thing today where the Church is persecuted. The furniture is for liturgical purposes, but it's hidden in a house. A priest will arrive and hear confessions before they have Mass, and then they'll flip it back into a house so nobody is the wiser. People disperse at varied times.
BeingBob 2 years ago
Do u have references to back this statement up? 'They had icons on the walls?' - and what priest? we are all priests if we are in Christ! Do you not see that?
christoferL 2 years ago
Yes. If you google - dura europos good shepherd - you should find it, although the city was seiged in middle of the 3rd century. The third result is a wikipedia image of the icon of Christ the Good Shepherd.
Yes we are all priests, but St Paul Rom 15:15-17 was proud to offer sacrifice of the gentiles in priestly service of the liturgy. Acts they ordained men for special tasks. Not all priests are the same or the Apostles would not have had authority to rule at the first council.
BeingBob 2 years ago
Googled it - wikipedia claims it dates back to 235 A.D... 200 years after Christ... lots of things can change in 200 years.
christoferL 2 years ago
Did you also Google the paleochristian art, some of which may be 1st cent, or consider that Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism, which did have liturgical vestments and garb. Even the phylactery is mentioned in the new testament. 2000 years later it's still worn. The Liturgy is recognizable. The Scripture is recognizable. We still have baptisteries.
BeingBob 2 years ago
we are getting off the path here... they did not have dedicated church buildings - people lived in houses that held meetings of Christians... and the meetings were not formatted services that restricted the flow of the Holy Spirit... art is art... not a church
christoferL 2 years ago
I'm not off the path. It's not just art. It's Iconography. It's in the catacombs where they would celebrate Mass over the bones of the saints. They didn't just drive down to kmart and pick up a pretty picture and frame. When an icon is written the person engaged in the task fasts and prays throughout the entire process.
You might might consider going to an Orthodox Divine liturgy.
It's a complete tradition. That book is doing more harm than good by catering to such prejudices.
BeingBob 2 years ago
Icons - you know - have just about completely given up the art of drawing because I do not believe in 'icons' - celebrating Mass over bones? Thats not what Jesus taught - and thats one of the focuses of this book - getting to the truth of the matter - not the legends and traditions...
christoferL 2 years ago
Chris, they had THE House of God, the Temple in Jerusalem.
That is where the origional church (Jerusalem, not Rome) congregated. It's all through the book of Acts.
In fact, you could make the case that persecution came upon the church because they were DISOBEYING God because Jesus told them to go forth in all of the world preaching the Gospel and they stayed in the Temple in Jerusalem.
That is also perhaps why God ended up destroying the Temple. God had moved on from that.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
It was prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed in Daniel 9. Even Christ told the pharisees that their house(the temple) would be left desolate in Matthew 23.
Acts 7:48 "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet"
Acts 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands"
theheat151 2 years ago
Orthodoxy is the only true Church, the original Church established by Christ and His apostles. Anything else is anathematized and heresy.
OrthodoxyIsTruth 2 years ago
What Orthodoxy? Eastern?
christoferL 2 years ago
Yes sir, Eastern.
OrthodoxyIsTruth 2 years ago
pagans are a joke, they barely exist.
emuholic 2 years ago
will look into reading the book, thanks again for the good insights Blessings!
LizardWings 2 years ago
SirTheistDRF - I think you are assuming that was why they worshipped in their homes. The individual home churches had about 30-35 people per church - but there were several homes with meetings in a city or a town - but they considered themselves one church and if they wanted to meet ALL together they would go to a larger facility able to accommodate them - such as Solomon's Porch (Acts 5:12). There was no interest in building churches until Constantine.
christoferL 2 years ago
Not according to archeology. St Georgeous Church in Jordan dates to 230 AD, and it's built upon an even older church that could date back to 33-45 AD. There were plenty of Churches built before Constantine.
waltherchemnitz 2 years ago
thx CL - I have just ordered the book and will have a read.
4096x 2 years ago
Yes- Acts tells us- it has become Churchianity the way it is-and so much infighting-We are to be cheerful and generous givers but the way it is with the one-man show it is corrupt- God has appointed Servant-leadship in the five-fold Ministry which is ordained by the God-See Ephesians and Corinthians-ordained elders-but these are the mature and Champion folks in to their callings-This setup we now have is way off and it does not cause growth of the members-which God wants!!!The Lord is moving-end
RebeccaMichael7 2 years ago
I told you that PaganChristianity would be very eye opening for you... I'm glad you enjoyed it. I know I did..
SisterSunnshine 2 years ago
Never read the book but God lead me to this understanding. Good to hear He lead you to this as well.
purplepixelations 2 years ago
I grew up in a church that was against paying pastors , im sure they werent perfect either but we had elders instead . along with guest speakers . the donation money went to the utility bills , no staff at all .
kingbrandor 2 years ago
very true in my old church we were spectators and payers until there was work to be done in the comunity then the pastors became the spectators , it a real shock to discover what ive been involved in was paganism , but thank God he opened my eyes
tonythatjesusloves 2 years ago
You must be a Greco-Roman. It was the Greco-Romans who created these buildings/cathedrals you call "church" in the first place.
Now, these "churches" are under the control of the gov't.
theheat151 2 years ago
Halleluyah Our Father.
Amen!!!!!!!!!
Wisdomcalls1 2 years ago
Hey brother. I was wondering what your views would be. I have an audio version and it is a great book. It made me realize much of the same things
rencal45 2 years ago
So incredibly true. In these last days the flock should quickly remove itself from "churchianity" and start organizing home fellowships where the Word Of YAH is read and everyone prays,praises YAH by singing His Word and not secular "strange fire" styles and communes with a meal and then everyone joins in in expounding the scripture with a main focus on TORAH in which Yeshua is the Living Torah and start honoring YAH's command to keep Shabbat and not the Roman apostacy of changing YAH's Torah
LosAngeleno1959 2 years ago
Now you see a glimpse of why I continue to rebel against mainstream Christianity & speak against several traditional beliefs held by the "church system"... and why I encourage people to seek the Lord in everything, instead of assuming what they have been told is the correct interpretation as taught by the church system.
I praise God for His enlightening you Chris... I look forward with joy as He continues to enlighten you in the weeks and months ahead!
Glory to JESUS!
ChristianNewsWatch 2 years ago
where can I get tis book
obiwankanobi675 2 years ago
AMazon has it as does ebay
christoferL 2 years ago
(cont'd)
The Bible needs to be read in context, not as a jigsaw puzzle.
We need to be like Jesus - revolutionaries who are ready to turn aside all tradition.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Halleluyah Our Father.
Amen!!!
Wisdomcalls1 2 years ago
(cont'd)
Dressing up for church is a leftover from paganism and hypocritical for Christians.
No one should lead in singing. To have a worship leader picking songs is an affront to freedom in Christ.
Tithing is completely unbiblical and now serves to prop up the unbiblical institutionalized church and the salaries of unbiblical clergy.
Baptism and the Lords Supper have been coopted by pagan mysticism.
Christian education doesnt work because everything is mind-focused.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Major arguments of this book:
The church should not contain any hierarchy at all.
The senior pastor is actually an obstacle to the fully-functioning body of Christ.
The idea of a sermon in a church gathering is pagan (after all, that brings about a clergy/laity distinction).
Church buildings take away from the biblical teaching that the Church is a people.
Any routine in worship is wrong. All liturgy, whether Protestant, Catholic or free church is misguided and stifling to the Holy Spirit.
TheotherPrometheus 2 years ago
Halleluyah.
I have not read the book but I think I might.
But everything you said here I found out just by reading the bible.
Now you did not go into christmas but I'm sure it might be in the book and many other thing
To be a true christian and one that makes it to the end is not easy as so many let on
Like I said before we don't even know how evil we are. Isa 64:6 people try to say we can't please God but that is not what it is really saying. We are so evil that when we think we are doing
Wisdomcalls1 2 years ago
Good our rightousness are as filthy rags.
Really think about it and how things have got out of hand that even the poor can't trust each other.....
Brother Phil.
Wisdomcalls1 2 years ago
I will give you my opinion later, God bless you.
RJL738 2 years ago
this is silly. the original church was the Catholic Church and the original church service has always involved the Eucharist and the distinction between the priest and laity.
OneTrueChurch 2 years ago
HAHA!!! The original Church was Jewish and not Greco-Roman pagans like yourself.
theheat151 2 years ago
Nope sorry. The Catholic Church was not around for years later. I kow you believe Peter was the first pope but nuh uh
rencal45 2 years ago
"where Christ is there is the catholic church"
-Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
you were saying?
OneTrueChurch 2 years ago
lol.
way to pull a quote out of your butt.
repentNOWunbelievers 2 years ago
Catholicism = fail
Sorry, try again!
moahspeaks 2 years ago
catholic = universal YOU were saying.
He is responsible for the first known use of the Greek word katholikos (καθολικός), meaning "universal," "complete" and "whole" to describe the church,
rencal45 2 years ago
you just said that the Catholic church didn't exist till later. i gave you a quote where ignatius calls the church catholic in 110 AD. The Early Church beleived in all catholic teaching. the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, the priesthood, Marian doctrines ect.
OneTrueChurch 2 years ago
The early church was also anti-semitic. They disgarded writings such as Hebrews, Jude, Peter, Jude, John, James and Revelation because it had a "Jewish" audience.
That anti-semitism still exists today in the Greco-Roman churches.
theheat151 2 years ago
110 years later may be years later to me lol
The early church believed the teachings of the Apostles.
The early church did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary? Being that they had Jesus half brothers there that would be hard for them to believe in.
They also didnt perform rituals as seen in most churches today. The bread and wine yes. That was commanded by Christ but Chris is right on with his assessment
rencal45 2 years ago
Catholic merely means Universal. Ignatius calls the Church Universal. He does not mean the incarnation of what we call the 'Catholic Church' today. There was a consolidation of the Church after 325 when Christianity was nationalized by Rome. This immediately caused a Schism between the Greek and Latin Church creating the Papacy and Patriachate of Constantinople as we know them today. There is absolutely nothing Biblical about a Papacy, a celibate Priesthood, or deification of Mary.
thehistorysage 2 years ago
Amen! You are right on the money there.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
Those didn't come in till MUCH later, OTC. Marian doctrines? You mean the Queen of Heaven? Look in the scriptures and the ONLY place you see any reference to the Queen of Heaven is in Jeremiah, a reference to a pagan goddess. That is YOUR Mary. Those visions of Mary that the Catholics buy into which pormote the Ecumenism are demonic.
Mary was only a virgin until after Jesus was born. Jesus had brothers. James and Jude were Jesus's BROTHERS.
BudManInChrist 2 years ago
BTW that is only a portion of the quote. If you are going to make a quote use the whole quote and in context.
rencal45 2 years ago
One - This isn't silly. The 'Catholic Church' was not the first church - in the sense that that neither Jesus (or Peter) wore ornate robes - the Eurcharist wasn't a wafer held in a sun disc staff - and we are ALL of the priesthood in Christ... men created a distinction between clergy and laity - not Jesus.
christoferL 2 years ago
excellent 5 stars
EyeGates 2 years ago
Thanks for the info, Christofer.
I heard about that book before, and i was going to find it and check it out, but it sort of slipped of my mind, so this time i must remember :)
Really interesting about the pulpit not supposed to be here.
Great video,
Vlado
vlado1306 2 years ago
vlado - it truly is interesting. Its not that there shouldn't be preaching - as Paul said to Timothy - Preach the Word - but in the original church - all preached as God led them... it wasn't a paid position - and it wasn't from a stage - but amongst the brothers and sisters in Christ. We have only One master - and that is Christ... Amen!
christoferL 2 years ago
yes, that is true :)
Amen!
vlado1306 2 years ago
AMEN! So true!
VersatileMind4Christ 2 years ago
Yes, it is time that the two houses wake up from the paganism that has desensitized so many.
Shalom & Ahavah
theheat151 2 years ago
The pagans are not and never were at fault as a whole. It was the greedy church leaders, both then and now who are behind it all. Wanna know why I feel this way? Read the parable of the 10 minas in Luke.
Homer177 2 years ago
I never said anything about the pagans being at fault. Everyone knows it was the "church" leaders who introduced paganism into Christianity to bolster its numbers.
Christianity began as Hebraic, but now has become Greco-Roman.
theheat151 2 years ago
Oddly enough it's true. What makes it worse is that any knowledge held by the ancient pagans has either been destroyed or hidden away from us, and those who held that knowledge were slaughtered. Eventually this was also bred out of the common folk like common house pets, which made them all the easier to control. Evidence of this is all around us.
Homer177 2 years ago
To add on, I mean the church that I go to is all about Jesus
Domingo0022 2 years ago
Is it Domingo? Beyond that - is it free of the problems that have been brought into the religion? The problem isn't that those add-ons are 'evil' - its that they changed how the church should be. Its like adding filler to hamburger. If you add too much - the burger is no longer beef at all - and it no longer capable of doing what beef does... if you can - read the book... it will bring u closer to Jesus than you realize.
christoferL 2 years ago
To answer your question, not completely. But the body of believers I fellowship with have a Christ-centered ministry. It's more relationship with people than religion that's for sure. I'll certainly look into that book for more insight! Blessings
Domingo0022 2 years ago
There is quite a distortion with how the church was before. The church I go to doesn't emphasize on tithing. The place I go to is about spiritual growth. I agree with this message, because going through the motions truly doesn't allow for the holy spirit to enter. I'm just blessed that the church is more about Jesus and not about the ways of the world. Get fueled for life.
Domingo0022
Domingo0022 2 years ago