Being No One

[JordanTheImpaler69]

"We are systems, so to speak, that look through their own representational structures, as if they were in direct and immediate contact with their content."

....

....

/suicide

[fourpm]

i'm guessing this bloke is talking to 7 year olds as a primer for adult education.

[fourpm]

It seems that Timothy Leary had a far better model than this Thomas Metzinger fellow.

Forty years forward and fifty years behind. The anti-Leary propaganda is obviously still working.

[mangochot]

the intro music sounds like something from a pornmovie

[KurosenvsGrither]

Useful part of the talk begins at 10:20

[heavyz2000]

what is that noise in the background that sounds like a dog barking..... this is seriously starting to annoy me 13 minutes in

[robopsychology]

very interesting approach to cognition... My non existent self is curious to read one of his books. I see the "Ego tunnel" is less than half the size of "being no one", and also it seems to have better reviews. Has anyone read those books? Any opinions?

thanx!

[Gwern0]

@robopsychology 'Ego Tunnel' is *way* easier to understand than 'Being No One'. Definitely a better place to start.

(Unfortunately for me, it was too introductory, so I'm stuck - I can't understand BNO and ET is too easy.)

[atwarwithdust]

is the PMIR "non-conceptual" as well?

[My5tuff4u]

Really interesting video, had to add this to my favs.

[theprophet20]

I don't believe that the subjective Self exists.

But who is this "I" that asks the question...?

[thinkahol]

@theprophet20 the self-referential symbol

[leegee23]

He sounds like a Logical Positivist Buddha. Great stuff - thanks for sharing

I'll get the books now.

[hrantnano]

@leegee23

seems  out of buddha's mouth....

nothing new for a buddhist

[beriukay]

@hrantnano You're starting to sound like an ancient Greek. "Matter is composed of atoms. Nothing new here"

[flowewritharoma]

goad

[Piitsi]

During the past years I have really seen the changing faces of my ego. I have come to see that my ego/the human part is just a part of a bigger process. I now see myself as a part of a whole and not as a separate thing. And the self that I thought was mine/my ego's isn't really, but instead it is something more universal. It really seems that we are the life itself playing the human part in the process of life. Being no one is to say to much. I prefer just Being not being this or being that. :)

[desmondhammond]

As a lay Buddhist, I think Prof. Metzinger has gotten closer to the truth than perhaps anyone in Western science and philosophy, building on Plato's insights in his allegory of the cave, and Descartes' skepticism in the first two meditations in Meditations on First Philosophy. His other book, The Ego Tunnel, is an easier-to-read and more accessible version of this work quite accessible to the lay reader.

[pyrrho314]

lol, black and white ARE colors.

[Piitsi]

@pyrrho314 lol, they are NOT :)

[Bassotronics]

@pyrrho314 Black and white are called shades..not colors.

[pyrrho314]

@Bassotronics : sorry no.

[Bassotronics]

@pyrrho314 /wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_bl­ack_and_white_not_considered_c­olors

[pyrrho314]

@Bassotronics : that's one answer in an internet answer database. Some consider them colors, some don't... if you define color cognitively, as in having it's own color sensation, then yes black and white and grey are colors.

The answer you linked too was inane, but there are others more accurate, that "technically" black is not a color (because it's absence of color) and white is all the colors.

But also no. Colors are things our mind can concieve in color space, and white and black are.

[Bassotronics]

@pyrrho314 I agree! White is the king of all colors. Black is the king of no colors at all...funny thing is that in "paint", (not light)... Black is the mixture of all colors. Its the opposite. lol

[pyrrho314]

@Bassotronics : the thing is as material phenomenon all black light is white, white is black... that is, both are actually 'grey", and grey the color you get when you have all the wavelengths mixed. That is... there is no black, just grey below our sensitivity and no white, just -saturated- grey... thus black is also a mixture of all the colors.

what do you think?

[Bassotronics]

@pyrrho314 That is interesting.. The same way we cant get to absolute zero is the same way we cant get to absolute black because as long as there are pigments belonging to other colors mixed, it will allways be a very dark gray even if our eyes percieve it as tottaly black. ;)

[pyrrho314]

@Bassotronics : that is odd. Also, I've never fully pictured, though I understand the reasons, I think, is the reason pigments have different primary colors than light...

[scotthorlbeck]

I was all geared up for something really mind-blowing, but this went waaaaaaay over my head. A little too technical for my tastes, despite being a technical person. Assuming, I even exist...?

[AMPFEAST]

@scotthorlbeck ofcourse you excist, u just dont have a "self"

[onlyiexist]

Professor Metzinger gives an excellent discription of the perception of self by conscious entity. This is not an explanation of consciouness: in his hypothesis consciouness is the state of mental activity that creates and entertains the self model.

[BscarfaceM]

I wish I had friends that I can sit around with & just have the deepest fukin intellectual, mind fucking, out of the box conversations with & just get into philosophical debates & share theories... where are all these cool/smart/open minded people? Why is everybody a typical Alyssa Lala-ziano & Joey Bro-liano.. I find it so hard to believe that SO MANY people are completely uninterested in anything other than alcohol

[stillmoretocome]

I had the no-self experience. It changed my life.

If you would like to experience it, go to:

NO-SELF.com (It's free)

[reyesorozco]

it's like Plato's cave..hmm..

[YORKNOEL1994]

cunt?

[manjunathpaih]

He often says 'I am a philosopher' - I don't know what he means by that , whether he is a self proclaimed philosopher ?

Talk is good and absorbing.I watched it full. Thanks

[AMPFEAST]

@manjunathpaih well, he works as a philosopher. it is his job an he has published as one.

[DarkLordOfThDoomZone]

Great book. Starts with a clear statement that he doesn't exist, then takes 675 pages to prove he doesn't exist. I like a bit of a larf. As for Noe's book, JJ Gibson...

[lovingboarding]

Thomas Metzinger at 4:23. :)

[Menarson]

That's so interesting, where can i find it in german.

[jayarava]

Watched a second time and took detailed notes and that helped. Some of the jargon still incomprehensible, but usually the examples make clear what he means. Fascinating, if complex, ideas. This seems to me to be the cutting edge of human knowledge.

[gurugeorge]

@jayarava Yes, he's a philosopher working in a tradition that's very much alive at the moment, another great philosopher along similar lines is Dan Dennett, another is Ricardo Manzotti. This is a fairly new tradition, the mark of which is that it's interdisciplinary - it's philosophy, neuroscience, psychology, anthropology, linguistics, etc., etc. Interdisciplinary research is becoming more and more prominent in science nowadays, as the various specialisms come together and pool results.

[jayarava]

I must confess that I find Metzinger difficult to follow on one hand - his jargon is opaque; but on the other I find it very familiar being a Buddhist and used to statements like his closing remark: "... strictly speaking no one is every born and no one dies." But, distinct from Buddhism, Metzinger says the process is transparent - it is implied from neural studies and neural deficits in particular. Buddhists claim to have experience of it. Reading The Ego Tunnel I wish he had better editors.

[sodaslacks]

Not sure what to make of this but it's a very interesting idea. I like what this guy is saying, I just wish it wasn't so "technical." 

[BuBBaGump014]

29:52 Mein Führer, I can walk!

[jayarava]

@BuBBaGump014 Your racism is ugly.

[BuBBaGump014]

@jayarava your lack of pop cultural awareness (in this case classical movies) is ugly

[TheDavidfallon]

After 2500 years western philosophy finally catches up to Buddhist dhamma. Thomas Metzinger exactly describes the process of knowing the arising and falling of phenomena (annica) and non-self (annatta) developed in Theravada and Vipassana meditation. He is a worthy and wise thinker.

[jayarava]

@TheDavidfallon Actually Metzinger appears to be at odds with the Buddhist theory - he is saying that the process of arising of mental phenomena is transparent, and not available to introspection. Though there is a superficial resemblance between Metzinger's conclusions and Buddhism, I don't see Metzinger offering anything like vipassanā or yathābhūta-ñāṇadassana. He seems to say it is not possible.

[TheDavidfallon]

@jayarava I agree on the superficial resemblance. I meant more that the catching up aspect of much cognitive science, even to the use of terms such as "mindfulness." As to transparency and the possibility of introspection I would suggest a reading of the suttas on emptiness implies exactly what Metzinger is reaching for, namely a way to comprehend the transparent.

[TheDavidfallon]

@jayarava The Dhamma difference is one of strategic purpose, namely to eliminate suffering, rather than merely to take a position or view. Thanissaro Bikkhu explains this emptiness concept better than I could. accesstoinsight.

[freyajean]

31:05 32:39 37:00

[freyajean]

20:37

[9aus]

I've got nothing against the idea of living in a brain computed simulation. But after millions of years of development time one would expect way better graphics.

Nature sucks!

[gurugeorge]

It's reminiscent not just of Buddhism but more generally of many mystical systems that involve some moment of "ego dissolution" or abeyance of the ordinary sense of self. No matter their metaphsyics, they all seem to be built on top of that kind of direct experience of the virtuality of the ordinary sense of self. At last we are getting to a stage where we can understand these experiences (and possibly benefit from them) without the religious rubble that's covered them (a la Sam Harris).

[colloredbrothers]

@gurugeorge

you can benefit from these experiences right now no need to first understand them.

[gurugeorge]

@colloredbrothers oh sure, but I think the benefits would reach more people without the religious encrustations and trappings. Those are fine for those who like them, but not everyone likes them, and may be put off from delving into the experiential aspect because of them. Anyway, I hope we can all agree that Metzinger's work (right or perhaps ultimately wrong) is quite important, and friendly to a revisionist, rationalist experiential approach to mysticism, etc. :)

[ikeike2]

I'm thinking about this loooooooong introduction!

[FOBmzunguREPTILICUS]

The freedom of being unknown has served me well...not being in the thoughts of others is good for both me and you

[netaksuvan]

Its nonexistence is the least thing my Self cares about...

[GreatUnwashedMass]

"I will come back to the question of the immortality of the soul (drinks water)"

[AlgeKalipso]

"There is no subject". I figure that an equivalent claim could be that the universe is the subject, at least from an analytic philosophy point of view. Either way the consequences are staggering. It does mean that we are, fundamentally, physical contingencies, and what is more important, we are all the same kind of physical contingency. Realizing this can lead you to truly see yourself in others, or more precisely, seeing humans as the way in which you manifest. I shall celebrate immortality.

[CosmicSisyphus]

To everyone here: I would recommend reading the Wikipedia article "Representational Theory of Mind": "According to the representational theory of mind, thinking occurs within an internal system of representation. The propositional attitudes of the mind are token mental representations (i.e., mental particulars with semantic properties)" (Wikipedia). I realize quoting Wikipedia is not scholarly, but for delivering basic information on Youtube, it suffices.

[CosmicSisyphus]

@williamdecypher I would recommend reading the Wikipedia article "Representational Theory of Mind". Metzinger actually makes more background assumptions than simply assuming a neuro matrix sustains the self. The idea of the self being an inner representation of the system, or simply put "a virtual model", as a whole is nothing new, but Metzinger does an incredible job applying this theory in a scientific context. It's ingenious how he relates the 3 phenomenal target properties to psychology.

[DonAliBaba]

This guy is a genius!!

[CosmicSisyphus]

Here are my notes of this video:

Add sharehub and . and me and / before it.

e0a02

[EdwardGabrielsen]

Sounds like Buddhism...

[CosmicSisyphus]

@EdwardGabrielsen It's a bit different from Buddhism because he states selves do not exist. Rather Phenomenal Self Models exist, a inner representation of the system as a whole, which are not selves. Some of his conclusions are similar to Buddhism, such as consciousness living in a chain of Nows. The Buddha once stated, 'My self certainly existed, but it does not exist now." Please check out the essay on my blog and feel free to PM me questions.

[Kaniki80]

What a wonderful presentation. Can anyone help me with this question--it's driving me crazy? Why does such a complex virtual construct that gives presence to a sense of self exist at all if all actions conducted by the body seem to operate before such operations are present in the virtual construct? In other words, what need is there for a sense self if the body seems to act independent from how the illusory self seems to conduct the body?

[CosmicSisyphus]

@Kaniki80 Let's discuss this from the perspective of PSM. One hypothesis that Metzinger gives is the PSM is a transparent, evolutionary construct. Since we can only "look through" our phenomenal representations, we are all naive realists. We are not aware of the construction process. He gives 2 empirical hypothesis for this. Furthermore, if we buy this is an evolutionary construct, then what he said in the beginning about the neuromatrix (relation of causal properties maintaining PSM) is true.

[Kaniki80]

@CosmicSisyphus Thank you for your reply. I think I get it now. While the brain seems to take care of a multitude of tasks (motor-sensory function, regulation of body temperature, cardio-vascular activity) aside from what is represented in the virtual construct, there is one task that can only be monitored by the brain if and only if it is presented in a virtual theater, and that is symbolic representation. Only in a virtual space can we play with symbols--language, mathematic equations, etc.

[Kaniki80]

@CosmicSisyphus These symbolic representations are archived by the brain and then when it is time to communicate these symbols to another human being or an external interface of some kind, the symbols are executed upon the world through neuro-channels suited for more basic mechanical operations.

[Kaniki80]

@CosmicSisyphus To give and example, in his mind, Salvador Dali could play with images of objects that exist in the world by manipulating their dimensions in a virtual space and then pick up a paint brush, a maneuver no longer dependent upon the virtual construct, and begin to introduce these ideas into the world. Both rote and virtual brain operations are in coordination, in this case.

[CosmicSisyphus]

@Kaniki80 That basically sounds like post-modernism.

[CosmicSisyphus]

Someone had an ego trip when he gave all minus ones to the comments here...

[CosmicSisyphus]

I will make a transcript with diagrams of this speech.

[1888junkteam]

excellent work!

[Psikonort]

Words , ideas, talk all are the Ego's desperate attempts to retain its intrusive intervention. Really, its all very intellectual & almost pompous & indulgent. The very essence of the subject , dwells in the deep silence of Meditation

We all have the wisdom within us, to truly understand this lecture, & true understanding comes through experiencing the trancendance of ones true self with the Cosmos, Divine, Everything else, (See what I mean about the trouble with words)

[ravkes]

@Psikonort : "i" "understand".. words are dualistic. we can't get the idea of awareness across to others because it's not an idea. one needs to suffer greatly within the deluded egoic mindset to realize it for himself.. It's difficult trying to speak about it, the masses will just think of it and their mindset will delude it into a concept.. It's ok, it's not that important anyways.

[ambercobalt]

your ideas engage only half of what the Whole is.....the other part of bringing the Unity into the Dual World for true Wholeness: Nirvana IS Samsara. So please don't be so arrogant yourself - getting the first part that you describe is easy; the real work it holding BOTH worlds in Unity within phenomena within your own Self. Both are True. But Truth just keeps getting larger everytime you look!

[grimmigenoisepimper]

49'00: "systems like us cannot become aware of the construction process"

Obviously mr. Metzinger has not had my famed mushroom soup.

[TonyKaku]

Covet.

[TonyKaku]

Covet.

[anarchonism]

His conclusion is very similar to buddhist views.

[TonyKaku]

Reading his book now (The Ego Tunnel), I came to the same conclusion.

[TonyKaku]

Reading his book now (The Ego Tunnel), I came to the same conclusion.

[ehmmmok]

What is going on outside?

[JChong3]

Wonderful! Thank you very much! Explained a lot to me.

[itsmu]

this youtube wouldn't have been so long

if it hadn't have been so long

[DrAltaica]

It's called 'Somatoparaphrenia' not 'unilateral hemi-neglect'.

Hemispatial neglect, also called hemiagnosia, hemineglect, unilateral neglect, spatial neglect or neglect syndrome is a neuropsychological condition in which, after damage to one hemisphere of the brain, a deficit in attention to and awareness of one side of space is observed.

Though Somatoparaphrenia can be caused by Hemineglect.

[hallcyon]

Brilliant! I highly recommend his book.

[jazatube]

I hope "no one" considers this negative, but I think "Being No One" seems to be a stretch of the 'brain as a computer' metaphor, to the point of the logical conclusion: pull the plug out, and the soul is gone.

The problem is the formal luggage of this simple statement. This reminds me of Wittgenstein's idea of Philosophy as a bewitchment of the mind by means of a language. I see in Metzinger a game of words on steroids.

[beyond1Mind]

The angels have landed, the aliens have unfurled their banner on this planet, and now lets see if information can liberate, and it will be settled in the next 10-15 yrs. Either they'll get a handle on it, whoever "they" are. Whatever a "handle" means, or it will slip from their control and it will be clear that some kind of dialog is now going on betwn individual human beings and the sum total of human knowledge and that nothing can stop it.

[damuero]

Could you be a bit more precise?

[Taors]

lol.

[denkbeeld]

Hmm... the negative comments surprise me, i think the content of the talk is fascinating, and consider the book 'Being no one' quite brilliant. To get an indication about the reception of this work in the fields of neurology and philosophy, check out the positive reviews by people like Antonio Damsio, Chis Frith, the Churchlands, Kai Vogeley and Vittorio Gallese (on the amazon website for example).

[openuniverse2003]

Unfortunately this is all a re-hash of recent discoveries in the SCIENCE of psychology, all wrapped up in a philosopher's "wonder at the mystery of the world and man's small, insignificant role in it". Wow, the brain fools itself to build a model of the world, and consciousness is more than likely an illusion. Congratulations on stating the obvious. Does this guy have a day job? Let's hope.

[fingersjones]

and, he's boring and bored, like hangover apathy; which doesn't help ... He's pinning of his argument on the theory of mind is overdone - i mean who is doing the representation?

[RJMyato]

He states over and over again that no one is doing representation and no one is being fooled by any illusion. You really did miss the point.

[LothairApoclyane]

you're a retard

[openuniverse2003]

Wow. That's quite an eloquent retort. I'm guessing you passed the Third Grade? LOL!

[LothairApoclyane]

lol no