TheJinnAndTonicShow: Does Islam Oppress Women? (14th Jan)

[scepticVseptic]

Just a constructive comment. I was enjoying this video very much and thanks for your efforts, but I tuned out 35 minutes in bc ow was talking way too much, He was supposed to be answering a callers (interesting) question but it turned into a (boring) gapless meandering monologue

[kainniak1]

when i watch these all i can think is "hrmm yes yes hrm yes"

[EarwiggoAgain]

A really great show. Well done to all concerned and

keep up the good work.

[CorporalNym]

Truly great show, fascinating. Great speakers all round and many insights!

[strangestdude]

Can you guys upload it in parts like the MSS? I find it easier to reference, and skip parts I'm not interested in.

[newjourney7]

@Orthodox786 Good to see you on the show! A good arg for your "Is Hell Just" debate could be that human thoughts fluctuate and are vague, so how could a bad intention be punished with perfect fairness. An intention can't be well defined or quantified, even in principle, in order to set a perfectly fair punishment. Similarly, suffering you cause in life can't be quantified to calculate suffering by a different means (extreme heat). Nice way to show hell is based on simplistic human abstractions.

[nurodium]

Great episode, guys. Just a note, however- your cousin's child is also considered your cousin.

Also in Islam, half-siblings cannot marry each other, but step-siblings can.

[amazonsongs]

@nurodium i have a few muslim friends and they told me that sister and brother from same dad but diffrent moms can marry? what is that?

[CorporalNym]

@amazonsongs genetic disaster!

[nurodium]

@amazonsongs That's absurd. My entire family is deeply Muslim, and we have first cousins who intermarry, and sometimes step-siblings. Half siblings though? Never. They share a biological parent.

[Kris88Lowe]

Sahih Al-Bukhari;

"Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'"

[Kris88Lowe]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 48: , Narrated Hisham's father;

So Muhammad's own aunt, his mother's sister, 'gave herself' to Muhammad. So in the Quran Muslim men cannot be with their aunts, but Muhammad could?

[Kris88Lowe]

Khaula bint Hakim was one of those ladies who presented themselves to the Prophet for marriage. 'Aisha said, "Doesn't a lady feel ashamed for presenting herself to a man?" But when the Verse: "(O Muhammad) You may postpone (the turn of) any of them (your wives) that you please,' (33.51) was revealed, " 'Aisha said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I do not see, but, that your Lord hurries in pleasing you.' "

[Kris88Lowe]

Didn't Khaula bint Hakim (Muhammad's maternal Aunt) asked Muhammad to marry her. His mother's sister "presented" herself to Muhammad, which upset Aisha.

[00ismaeL001a]

under Sharia Jessie is unaware that you cannot pick and choose what to follow and what not to follow. The Islamic scholars have already determined what you can and cannot do under Sharia.

I read today that the Muslim Brotherhood IS going to follow Sharia as the Salafi party also wants.

[OvertAtheist]

I couldn't see any name for the guy at the bottom in the orange shirt, but he was by far the best when questioning the callers. I really think the others should take note. Also it's not beating up on a caller to have a quick back and forth, and it was quite effective to say the least.

[alyraly]

@OvertAtheist That would be me, thank you!

[nafeebdlive]

@alyraly Then bro u were total sexy , loved it !!!

[cleticprincess1956]

Islam Sucks.

[cleticprincess1956]

at 1:48:15, Jessie, piss off you sexists a-hole.

[cleticprincess1956]

I wonder how this Jessie would feel if there was a Sharia Law that says "all single males over 10 years of age can NOT leave their home without their mother or older sister being by their side at ALL times".

[Darw1n1st]

holy fuck. klingschor, for fuck sakes give farhan a chance to talk.

[cleticprincess1956]

As a female I can't understand why any female would like Islam, I hate it.

Cheers.

[Darw1n1st]

Klingschor, you need to learn to sit back and let the conversation start. You poured so much in to the conversation by the 15 minute mark. The muslim apologist has so much on his plate already. You need to pace yourself.

[Darw1n1st]

@Darw1n1st Never mind, he's not muslim anymore. I remember him as a muslim.

[OvertAtheist]

@Darw1n1st

I disagree on how he needs to pace himself, as getting all that out there was a good start. There is no point in holding back information that can set the stage for the rest of the show. If anything though, Klingschor got to speak more in general, which is good. I don't always agree with him (somewhat in relation to politics), but I thought he did a really good job on this show.

[Klingschor]

@Darw1n1st

Farhan isn't a Muslim Apologist, and I thought it would be nice to begin the show with a poignant quote and the conclusion of the essay; it set the tone nicely.

[Orthodox786]

@Klingschor Hey Kling, not that it matters to the content of this conversation but I am a former Muslim apologist. I defended Islam in public debates.

[Orthodox786]

@Orthodox786 Oops, the guy thought I was currently a Muslim apologist, my bad!

[Klingschor]

@Orthodox786

I know :)

[Orthodox786]

@Darw1n1st Yeah, I',m a FORMER Muslim .... lol

[cleticprincess1956]

Hypothetical, if Australia ever became Islamic or under the control of Islam, like Sharia4Australia (Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon) wants here, I would kill any man/person who tried to force me to wear one of those disgusting Hi jabs/Burkas.

[dubi186]

1:11:00 was so funny

[exmuslimUSAPK]

**1:06:00...not 1:06

[merjemke]

that not true... brother and sister getting married??? really???! WTF!!!!!

[exmuslimUSAPK]

great point from farhan at 1:06 about the golden islamic era being due to freethinking DEVIANT mutazils. i wish more muslims knew this. kling if you see this i think this is a great topic for a video

[Klingschor]

@exmuslimUSAPK

That's actually wrong - I wanted to address that, but I got sidetracked -_-

[exmuslimUSAPK]

@Klingschor

o well I'd still like to know why islamic golden age occured. I can't imagine it being due to traditional "islamic doctrine" or shariah but i might be biased. i dont know...

[Klingschor]

@exmuslimUSAPK

I'm writing a series of essays on the subject - keep your eye on Lorientalist channel for a video series.

[OvertAtheist]

@Klingschor

Well the key point is that much of it wasn't because of Islam, but rather in spite of it. Otherwise it's like saying that Allah gets credit for algebra, when really it has nothing to do with the teachings of the Quran; nothing to do with Islam.

[SissingPyd]

I wonder if those school girls who died in the saudi school fire, felt liberated just before they burned to death.

[ProgressiveAudio]

Hinduism is actually worse than Islam in some ways.

[amazonsongs]

@ProgressiveAudio ah got it, thats why islam is the topic of discussion :D

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

I think what he means is that we were discussing Islam and not Hinduism, so it was quite irrelevent to bring it up.

However, just out of curiosity, could you inform me of a few examples of it? I can't imagine it would be with sexuality, since I don't really think Hinduism has many sexually oppressive rules.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 "I think what he means is that we were discussing Islam and not Hinduism, so it was quite irrelevent to bring it up."

You clearly didn't watch the video then because in the vid a hindu appears making Hinduism out to be a much better religion.

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Dude, I was in the BlogTV at the time and I do remember that guy from India showing up, although I didn't know he was a Hindu and I didn't understand anything he was talking about apart from inbreeding because of his accent, unfortunately, so point taken.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 No worries, I probably should have clarified that in my first comment. The dude was indeed saying Hinduism is a nice religion and for example that there's no restrictions on who Hindus can marry (in heterosexual relationships anyway), which is false, fundie Hindus violently attack hindus who marry people from other caste and other religions.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 When it comes to sheer violence and oppression, Islam is worse, but when it comes to sexual and class oppression, hinduism is worse

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Sexual oppression, I'm not sure; Islam's very bad when it comes to sexually oppressing people (although women in particular). I have no idea what the Gita and other Hindu scripture says on the subject, but I think Klingschor made a comparative religion video once where he said there was very little sexual oppression in Hinduism. Maybe that's not what he actually said but that's how I remember it. Can you please explain in more detail (via PM if need be).

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 "but I think Klingschor made a comparative religion video once where he said there was very little sexual oppression in Hinduism. "

Well that's absolutely wrong, especially when it comes to homophobia. Since most of the sites I use for this are down (due to SOPA protest), here's an old vid from Capnoawesome: watch?v=D7JH7yQIJB8

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

That video doesn't really explain much; it had sort of a Pat Condell feel to it, as in "religious ppl are dumb lolz". It didn't really do much other than show that Hindu guy who PM'd him to be a complete bellend.

I would just look it up on Wikipedia, but as you said it, it's down due to the protests against SOPA.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 It should be noted that homosexuality was not legalized in INdia until 2009, to great protest from Hindu organizations. And it's not hard to understand, Hinduism promotes a strict caste and family system that limits peoples sexual freedoms, more strict than in Islam. There's honor killings and sexual mutilation in Hinduism too.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 Not to dig this back up, but I forgot to point out that Pat Condell is not anti-religious, he's anti-muslim. In one of his recent videos, he raged against Atheist in the US for trying to get christian material out of public spaces, and says Christianity is good because it's apart of "western culture" He's also supported Christian fundies in the past, he's one of those atheist who says christianity as a bulwark against foreigners.

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

He is actually anti-religious; he's made loads of Anti-Christian videos in the past as well. He only supports those organizations when they're trying to take rights from Muslims or other Anti-Islamic activity. He spits in their faces the moment they do anything else he doesn't like. And he's made quite a few generally anti-religious videos. That said, it is true that his Islamophobia has become even worse in recent times and is guiding his opinions even more.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 "he's made loads of Anti-Christian videos"

No, but he did make some token anti christian and anti racist videos in the past. As TJ pointed out, he made those because he had too. The rest of his videos, and his political activism going back to the mid 80s, and his current voting patterns which he makes public, paint a very different picture.

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Where did TJ say that? I don't remember him saying that.

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

I thought you were referring to that one. You're wrong.

What TJ said was that Pat Condell is paying lip service to the idea that he recognizes the existance of moderate Muslims to look more credible. He didn't say anything about what you said.

Basically, yes become so Anti-Muslim (and anti-immigration) that he's willing to support fundie Christians. However, that still doesn't mean he isn't generally anti-religious just because he's mostly Islamophobic.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 So paying lip service to the idea of moderates in religion and saying youre not anti islam is not what he meant? Oh well, though you kind of just said he did?

I guess you didn't watch the end of the vid either :p

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 "However, that still doesn't mean he isn't generally anti-religious just because he's mostly Islamophobic."

I guess except for his latest vid about Christianity being apart of his culture and worth defending.

watch?v=PW__KLACW_0

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Yeah, I definitely agree that he destroyed what little credibility he ever might've had with that one video and completely showed everyone how anti-secular he is. However, I still think he's opposed to the scripture and dogma of Christianity. He only said that as a way of bolstering the alleged cultural supremacy of the western world.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 Yes he's personally not a Christian, but so were most members of the Bush Administration. In private they were atheist who admitted they thought Christianity was stupid, and they were just using religion to get power, which caused massive rifts between them and evangelicals. That's not anti-religious. A lot of atheist, right wing ones anyway, are pro religious.

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Yeah, but Pat doesn't even pretend to be one in public.

But with this, I was more referring to his really old videos, where he wasn't as ardently Anti-Islamic and was more just Anti-Religion in general when I said that. Obviously, he's become much more fixated with the Daily Mail propaganda now.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 I don't wish to flood the comments here, have anywhere else we can talk?

[Gunderson002]

@ProgressiveAudio

Added you on Skype. :)

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 Thanks

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 Also in the vid TJ summarizes it pretty well at 3:05

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 "Pat Condell Hates Tacos (Also Muslims) "

Halfway through the vid.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 He after all votes for a party that doesn't support secularism, but seeks to maintain Anglican Church control over certain areas of life, and doesn't support the One Law for Everyone campaign.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 He had an old stickam video specifically about Hindu homophobia and terrorist, unfortunately it's gone. It was really good.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 And you're free to PM me whenever you wish, I love chatting on youtube.

[ProgressiveAudio]

@Gunderson002 After all Hinduism is the largest eugenics culture on the planet, arranged marriages are as apart of their lives as eating and drinking, and of course the caste system includes sexual oppression.

[ProgressiveAudio]

So Egypt is becoming a theocracy? Goodie...

[ProgressiveAudio]

Heh, the whole cousin marriage thing in Islam is like the last thing I care about in it. Then again maybe its because a muslim friend of mine has done it.

[amazonsongs]

@ProgressiveAudio its not about things to care, its like when you say "islam is perfect and muslims are great" then this thing is the mirror :)

[t3nGu666]

1:42:31 wtf?? Jessie disagrees?

[discussislam]

@Kling you were awesome as always too of course - sorry I forgot to add your name to my original comment.

[Klingschor]

@discussislam

heh heh - no problem :)

[Iwantjustice1]

Its funny how that Arab talks about a "backward Pakistani town", he forgets his own Arab Muslims slaughtering Arab Copts in towns that are supposed to be tolerant and secular in Egypt.

[Ikhwanalsafa]

@Iwantjustice1 "The Arab"??? Are you a racist against Arabs? Oh and fyi Aly is a massive critic of the Islamists in Egypt so your statement: "he forgets his own Arab Muslims slaughtering Arab Copts" is false. But please carry on with your strawman arguments.

[GroundZeroMosque]

Excellent show. I listened to the whole thing.

Diatanie mad a great point. I also think that some western women are attracted to the 'bad boy' image by some of the Salafis who are living in the west, but are openly anti-western.

[discussislam]

This was the best show so far! I'd have liked to hear a little more from Farhan, but he nevertheless made some insightful comments. Aly was awesome & it was good to hear Godless being a bit more vocal this week. I hope Nada, Luna, & Ditantee will be on again in the future as the show really needs female voices. Stop Spamming was great too and of course Atheismo was superb as ever. Awesome show guys - and gals! Well done!

[Orthodox786]

@discussislam Thanks, its cool, my interest in primarily psychology, philosophy and philosophical implications of scientific facts, philosophical implications of theological stances ... theology and politics are important issues though that tie in, just not my starting point or focus.

[dhimmiwit]

Damn damn damn I missed the live show, thank the gods for youtube :)

[GroundZeroMosque]

Muhammad also said women make up the majority of people in Islamic hell.

Muhammad's wife Aisha said that the most suffering women were 'believing' women.

[OvertAtheist]

Imo, I think it was wrong for Atheismo to ask those x-Muslim women to play devils advocate, for a religion they clearly don't want to defend. If someone is there to debate, that is fine. But if they're not, that is fine too. For often it is quite interesting to hear what a person has to say, even when everyone agrees with each other. In other words: don't worry about beating up on the intolerance within the Quran. It's not against people, but against what often amounts to unacceptable beliefs.

[OvertAtheist]

This show was WAY BETTER than the one before it. I think what helped is that the guests were pressed a bit on what they think, with quick follow up questions, which helped to to the point much better, and the converations got a bit deeper. Which is better than asking one question and allowing them to go on forever, then end up switching topics right afterward.

[tab2522]

Hahaha @ Almighty's joke