Oh and for the record.. The man that predicted May 21st to be the day of the rapture and judgment was (himself alone) a selfrighteous man claiming to have figured out what the lord clearly said no man would ever know until the actual moment it takes place.. This man himself labeled a day all on his own.. NOT GOD!! so think before you speak blaspemy against the King of Kings And Lord of Lords through your videos or whatever else you us to spread your lies..
The Holy Bible speaks on these exact scenarios of the nonbelievers.. Nonbelievers will taunt the true believing Christians with questions basically like "where is your messiah that you said would return" etc etc!
I just thank The Lord Our God for all that he has done for us all and myself personally. and for the perfect love and beauty of our Great Big beautiful Christian Family in Christ now and forever
@92reshaun "The Holy Bible speaks on these exact scenarios of the nonbelievers.. Nonbelievers will taunt the true believing Christians with questions basically like "where is your messiah that you said would return" etc etc!"
Interestingly, the verses that do this were written in response to early Christian wondering about why Jesus had not returned as quickly as he was purported to have said he would. Christians have been working to dismiss this prophetic failure for a VERY long time.
@ProfMTH (no disrespect but,) You're obviously ignorant to the spoken prophecies that must come before the rapture can occur. Maybe you just choose to live your life for the sole purpose of discrediting and attacking Christianity at it's very foundation. I don't know, But I'll tell you this. God knows your heart, that it is hardened and your mind of ignorance by choice. and it's because of this that you're blind to the very truth of the Holy Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ thereof.
@92reshaun "You're obviously ignorant to the spoken prophecies that must come before the rapture can occur."
What "spoken prophecies"? Be specific.
"Maybe you just choose to live your life for the sole purpose of discrediting and attacking Christianity at it's very foundation. I don't know...."
No, you don't know. I'll tell you: it's not why I live my life. But even if it were, the argument's merits would still have to be addressed. Look up the ad hominem fallacy and learn to avoid it.
@ProfMTH (Mathew 24:36) "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Speaking of the rapture). So this leads me to ask you if you believe in yourself to know the mind of God? because (1 Corinthians 2:11) says different. But ask yourself, If God knows the time is not just yet for the end to finally come, Then why would he remove the Church prematurely when there's still time left for soles to be saved?
@ProfMTH Secondly, The Holy Spirit must be present on this earth continuously until the time of the Antichrist's coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:7) "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." He who now restrains is the "Holy Spirit" which is present through Gods people "The Church" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit,.."
@ProfMTH So hopefully now you can see why we Christians are still here. These people (past, present and future) that say "we've missed his coming or he isn't coming" are in error of the scriptures and have allowed man made ideas or traditions (that are always corrupt) rule their minds instead of God. And it's for this reason that Apostle Paul corrected the early saints in scriptures like (1 Thessalonians 4:17) i believe.
@ProfMTH Notice he speaks as if the rapture is going to take place during their point in time? That's because only God knows the day and hour of his coming. and it is for this reason that he instructed us to (always be ready and on guard in the faith and our walk with God, because we know not the day nor hour of the coming of the son of man.)
@92reshaun Adding no disrespect doesn't make you respectful - you should learn what respect is. Your threats don't scare anyone because we don't believe in your multi-self-refuting god. You do not have special eyes that can see the "truth" - you only live in your own world of delusion.
Paulstianity is a cult doctrine which was rammed down the throat of the innocent docile Gentiles so as to bring them to the feet of a fictitious latinized Jew. The founder of the cult was a Big Liar, Agnostic Paul, a cunning Jew. He created a perfect slave system for the benefit of the world Jewry. Poor Gentiles have to fall flat on the feet of this man-god for worship . They can never by-pass this man god to reach their true Creator. Those who figured out are turning to Islam by the millions.
woah ,ProfMTH ,was here IN PERSON ..all should see his YT channel ,especially on his methodical destruction of the numerous fatuous claims that christ's coming was fortold in various OT prophecys ..
warning ;rational christians should steer well clear ,your early apologists are clearly exposed as often being intentionally dishonest as well as merely inept in promoting these still widely believed bits of partisan chicanery.
The funny thing is that ALL christians believe in the same insane shit that Harold Camping does..the only difference is that Harold Camping put a date on it.
@mikefromwa - I don't know if they believe in all of the same "insane shit" after all Harold Camping's Family Radio promotes the idea that the moon is/has been volcanically active within the last century or so. And, this volcanic activity disproves the age of the Earth and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.
@lobothesacred3: "I don't know if they believe in all of the same "insane shit""
They do. No difference at all except he put a date on it.
"proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old."
Lol, right. ALL the scientists and ALL the geologists and ALL the astronomers and ALL the cosmologists are wrong. The truth is in the holy book of fairy tales, written by people who believed the Earth was flat.
Yeah, how could it get any more scientific than that?
@ProfMTH Please try and seek Jesus Christ with all of your heart just *ones in your lifetime and he [promises] to reveal himself to the person who does this.
@ProfMTH - Jesus most definitely doesn't make a "false profit" just look at how much money the various Christian churches are raking in. They put their stamp of approval on everything. You have to have your very own Bible, Jesus Fish, Jesus T-Shirt, Jesus boxers, Cross Earrings, Cross Necklace, and your blessed underwear.
The Christian church is more into merchandising then Yogurt from Spaceballs.
@dukedrywall1 Moron... Atheists study the bible more than Christians do. That's partially WHY they became atheists. The single most damning source of evidence AGAINST Christianity is none other than the bible itself. But you know what's ironic? Even if 100% of Christians studied their bible (instead of less than 10%) it wouldn't change anything because Christian apologists are mentally defective in a way that prevents them from seeing contradictions in their doctrine.
@socksumi The Bible is only vague to those without 'The Spirit'. For people reading the Bible when guided by 'The Spirit', the meaning is clear and concrete. Just look at the evidence. There are over 20,000 denominations of Christians, all of them are certain that they have the absolutely definitive version of the truth. How can you argue with the absolute certainty of so many divergent groups? Basic reasoning shows that the Bible is not at all vague.
@LordProfBear I can argue about their "certainty" precisely because there are 20,000 divergent denominations. Historically biblical scholars have quarreled about scripture sometimes to the point of violence and accordingly have divided themselves into thousands of Christian splinter groups (denominations). This aptly demonstrates the bible's inherent vagueness along with its divisiveness. Your current understanding of scripture is radically different than Christians of generations past.
Con't All you need to do is look all the youtube Christian videos and you'll find thousands of Christians at crosshairs debating and arguing with each other over the meaning of scripture. Whether it's the faith vs works debate, legalistic interpretations, evidence for miracles, or issues of a more petty nature you'll find Christians proclaiming their positions with absolute certainty yet at odds with fellow Christians of a different church.
@socksumi Not much of a channel, I'm afraid. I was planning on doing some proper work on it but unfortunately I've been rather busy; hopefully I can amend that in the near future. I thought the phrase "How can you argue with the absolute certainty of so many divergent groups?" would have given away the 'joke'. alas. Thanks for the compliment and best wishes.
The fact that there are "over 20,000 denominations of christians, all of them are certain that they have the absolutely definitive version of the truth," does of itself reflect the bible's vagueness, and that Christianity is not in conformity. And this is coming from a Born-Again Christian. I hate to admit it, but there is truth to a lot of the things ProfMTH is saying. Many of us have never done research on Christianity and Religion....we just accepted the things we were taught.
First, a well done video. However, you have not done your homework. Up until the early 20th Century, Most of the Biblical Scholars from the First Century onward applied the Mark, Matthew and Luke passages to the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The language of the N.T. is Hyperbolic and used to describe a "really bad thing" see Josephus, Eusebius, Chrystostom, Athanasius, John Lightfoot, Milton Terry, Augustine, John Gill, and others. Also 70 A.D. was within
@cnighlfilms "The language of the N.T. is Hyperbolic and used to describe a "really bad thing""
Quick point I want to make about that. In the contemporary english version of the bible, the "abomination of desolation" as it is translated in other texts, is rendered "that horrible thing" in that bible version. What you said just reminded me of that. Perhaps "that horrible thing" is a better translation describing the event.
@ProfMTH Just a Q. are you a retarded "IMAM" or how did you get to that about Jesus being a false prophet? C'mon at list try to stick to the contest of what Jesus was saying even a 8 year old can get that Jesus in Mark 13: v 24-31 was saying > that the generation when the things that he mentions where happening will not pass away< i have a bible in my lingo and is saying that even if i did not you can simply get it in the contest,so he was not talking for he's present generation but a future one
@dandom01 "Just a Q. are you a retarded "IMAM" or how did you get to that about Jesus being a false prophet?"
If you don't understand how I got to the conclusion that Jesus is a false prophet by the Bible's own standard, then you should watch the video again and pay very close attention.
"at list try to stick to the contest of what Jesus was saying "
Contest? I suspect you mean context. If you're going to start a message to someone by asking if they're "retarded," you'd do well...
(con't) @dandom01 ...to be totally on top of your own game. Some free advice for you.
"he was not talking for he's present generation but a future one"
The text is quite plain that Jesus was talking about the generation alive when he was speaking. He said that all the events he had described would take place before that generation passed away.
this is ur monalisa bro.Offcourse dogma is immune to knowledge.the thing is even if NOONE knows the exact day, someone COULD guess, i mean, i may not know which r the next lottery winners but i could guess, would that make me a proven pshyquic? what if I predict the rapture is next monday and it does happen, would this make me a true PROFET? It coulda happend may 21 still that wouldnt make Mr. Camp any less of a false profet.as always "Unfalsifiable" is the common denominator of xristianity.
2. which is why xristianity can not survive without faith. this isnt hard to understand, what is hard to understand is that these xristians are calling out mr camp on his false prophecies yet theyre so blind to the ones they themselves believe in, INfuckingCredible. and about the guy who says "he's making xristianity look foolish" yeah, as if xristianity needs someone to make it look foolish. lol
@boggisthecat "The usual translation in this passage is "generation" and the usual argument is that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD kicked off the "end times"."
Obviously, Scripture assures that the Gospel would be preached over the entire Earth before the end. This wasn't going to happen in one "generation" as the typical english speaking person understands the term. It took the Christians centuries to just stop being butchered. The moment Christ died the end times began.
@hawklord2001 ." I say again, until the existence of God can be proven anything referring to the afterlife, or Jesus' divinity is meaningless."
It seems entirely reasonable that the confirmation of the existence of dark energy does prove the existence of God, though those with motives that are not in concert with truth will surely discount such reason, somehow.
One problem I have with your video and most other videos that depict jesus.
jesus was not white, he was an arab jew. I would really like to see photographic imagery that is more consistent with osama bin laden as jesus then a white man.
@pillowbugg - Jesus and God strangely tend to take on the ethnicity of the believer. It seems like most of them don't realize that Jesus would look like someone from the middle east.
@pillowbugg - I think the prejudice is more towards Islam then Arabs. The first thing I think about Arabs and I think about Islam. And Islam brings up thoughts about 9/11, Osama Bin Laden, suicide bombers, and the various military campaigns of the prophet Muhammad.
@lobothesacred3 well, using that standard; the entire planetary population should have post-tramatic stress disorder with the mere mention of christianity or caucasions.
@pillowbugg - I don't understand your response. I'm only saying that when people think of the Middle East then think of Islam. And Islam has a lot of baggage in the United States do to Muslim extremists. Then, again when I think about Christianity the imagery isn't much better.
@lobothesacred3 I was responding to your suggestion about the stereotype associated with islam in the united states and I was simply extending the worlds distain for Christians.
@ReligiousJezta the only people confused at all are the athiest! lol
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10
@ahmalala but that book's full of crap D: surely what it says shouldn't be taken seriously? i mean, between the unicorns, giants, sea monsters, talking snakes, zombies, etc. it seems pretty wild o.o
@lobothesacred3 dude, dragons are SO totally real o.o it says so here in this really neat book *shows off eragon* its so neat, i think everyone could learn a lesson from it.
Going to the Jesus was not God thing: What he said makes sense if you understand the holy trinity. Jesus wasn't really "God", but a part of God, not the whole God, but a deity.
The rapture is coming and Jesus christ is coming! Your really going to say those things your hole life then stand if front of Jesus christ himself and explain yourself to him on judgement day? Repent to Jesus because God loves you! put your faith in Jesus and make him lord and savior. Jesus saved my life and can help you if you only seek him in spirit and truth.
9:22 Do not worry my good sir.. Christianity has been very good at making itself look foolish for over 2000 years. Harold was just another one for the list. Nothing more, nothing less.
@wayman29 Thanks. I took a great seminar as an undergraduate on visions of paradise and apocalypse. Fascinating stuff. I did my seminar paper on The Communist Manifesto as a secular version of the Book of Revelation.
Earl Doherty points out that Gospel tradition and the Epistle tradition are not in agreement on the matter of the Last Days. While the Gospels have Jesus foretell his RETURN, the Epistles speak of his COMING.
No epistle, Doherty claims, makes mention of disciples. Neither Paul nor Jude nor Peter, etc. seem aware of an earthly Jesus ever having lived, taught or taken on followers.
Christianity appears to be based on at least two conflicting traditions - unreconciled.
@EvenGodsSuffer "Neither Paul nor Jude nor Peter, etc. seem aware of an earthly Jesus ever having lived, taught or taken on followers."
See,e.g.: Gal 4:4, "God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the Law"; Heb 5:7 "In the days of his flesh, he offered up prayers & supplications with loud crying & tears to the one able to save him from death, & he was heard"; 1 Cor 11:23-24, "Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread; & when he had given thanks, he broke it & said..."
(con't) I think all of those passages (and others) refer to an earthly Jesus who lived, et cetera. That said, there is no doubt that Christianity is based on a number of conflicting and unreconciled traditions.
I'm sure those objections are too obvious for Doherty not to have addressed them himself. I am merely bringing it up as an alternative view, one which I find novel and interesting.
The YouTube atheist Truthsurge has a entire series devoted to it.
E.g., I find it similarly interesting that the Nicene Creed, while holding to a resurrection, general judgment and a "life of the ages to come", makes no mention of a soul, its individual judgment immediately upon death, nor of Heaven nor Hell.
@EvenGodsSuffer It seems until the year 553, there was no official statement on such matters. It is inferred that Ignatious of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus & Arnobius favored annihilation. Enoch & Ezra had introduced the eternal torment doctrine & Tertullian championed it. Gregory of Nyssa taught universalism as well as Origen who hinted at pre-existence of souls & reincarnation (Contra Celsum). Not until Justinian pushed the church to teach eternal torment, was a doctrine of afterlife set.
@MySocksSmell2 (1)- And, yet it isn't really set since Christians are still arguing over the nature of the afterlife. Since, some modern day Christians prefer to interpret Hell as an absence of God. Though, how you can ever be separated from a being that is supposedly omnipresent is beyond me. Some Christians seem to prefer the annihilation stance and others prefer a literal hell.
@lobothesacred3 (2) - And just to make the situation more convoluted Christians can't agree on how to get into heaven anymore either. Some Christians seem to accept the idea that people that are generally good can still get into heaven without faith in Jesus.
So being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean I can't go to heaven that Christians believe in according to some of them. And some Christians even think Muslims can get into heaven as well.
@lobothesacred3 Now it's impossible to add a statement about hell/heaven to the Nicene Creed, because there's no more Roman/Byzantine emperor to demand an ecumenical council, threaten the bishops to vote on a doctrine he likes, then implement conformity by sword throughout Christendom. Ahh, the good old days of Caesaropapist theocracy when the Vicar of Christ could depose Patriarchs &, lock Popes in jail, minority opinions could be squashed, heretics punished & X-ian unity enforced by the state.
I've presented an alternative view which I have found interesting. That's all.
TruthSurge has a 40 part series including presentation and and replies to objections. I'm not going to rummage through it all again just to find Doherty's answers to your three objections.
If you're really and truly interested in the answers, do your own research. Check out his channel.
@EvenGodsSuffer "Come on, Prof! I've presented an alternative view which I have found interesting. That's all."
I know. I'm not allowed to ask any questions about it? I showed several examples of the epistles doing precisely what you say Doherty claims the they don't do. I'd be interested to know what he says about them. If you don't know, no big deal.
"do your own research."
I always do. I'll give you an admonition, too: if you're not prepared to defend a claim, don't make it.
@ProfMTH Mark 13:30 has nothing to do with Jerusalem. I suggest instead of picking a verse out of an entire chapter you read the actual chapter. Of which generation was Jesus speaking of? If you were indeed learnt in these scriptures then you would have saw that he said when you see the things spoken of in Daniel Mark 13:14. The generation Jesus referred to was not that of Jerusalem. That is dealt with in another verse where Jesus Prophesies the Destructio of Jerusalem in Matthew 23.
@ProfMTH Your dealing with two complete different issues here, and meshing them as the same. Saying that he would come back during the reign of Rome before it fell would have exposed him as a liar, as it is withing the Iron with clay that Anti-Christ is revealed. Not in the Iron. ANd while Jesus lived the ceasars reighned. Also you seem to have a problem differentiating between Yeshua and YHWH. While Jesus knows of the sighns, Yet it is not of his to appoint the day of his coming.
@ProfMTH As this is YHWH decisions. Also, Jesus is indeed God while at the same time He is not YHWH. Thats why it says Christ is at the right hand of YHWH. YHWH will decide the day of appointment of Yeshua/Christ Return. Yet at the same time the sighns of the approaching of that time has been revealed to us through Christ. While we must be aware of false Prophets we must be able first to know scripture well. All this end time garbage is not biblical. Their are many other prophecies Christ
I contacted TruthSurge re Doherty's possible responses to your three verses. He replied that he already has videos addressing them planned for the future, along with the "seed of David" objection.
He did point out that, in 1Cor 11:23, "betrayed" should be translated "delivered over". In fact, Paul uses the same verb twice in that verse: "For I have received of the Lord that which I also παρεδωκα unto you … that, on the night he was παρεδιδετο …" Ref also Rom 4:25 and 1Cor 15:24.
I look forward to the day that Christianity joins the ranks of the worship of Set, Umma Gumma, Zeus and Odin (as well as thousands of others) in the pantheon of dead and ridiculous beliefs...
@GetMeThere1 That's what makes this so useful for the apologist. The standard (so to speak) is so flexible that it allows him or her to say "Jesus is speaking from his human nature" whenever s/he wants and "Jesus is speaking from his divine nature" whenever s/he wants.
Mark 13:30 What he meant with "this generation shall not pass away" is that the generation during the time when everything is happening will see all the events unfold and be there till the end.......so we don't know when he will return or which generation but that the end times will conclude within that generation's time..In no way did Jesus mention that it would happen during HIS generation, this is wrong interpretation of scripture...email and i can elaborate further if needed
@johnycannuk ok...because you said i am wrong i am wrong, my intent is to clear up some misconceptions here to make you realize that there was a misinterpetation of the verse..believe what you wish to believe...or you can be a man and see if what im telling you makes any sense at all..
@tario26 Having read the Bible many times, I can assure you you are wrong. You are rationalizing because you don;t want to admit that ProfMTH is right, and that the Bible itself back him up. You are implying ideas that simply do not exist in the text because you don't WANT it to be true.
@johnycannuk congrats, you can read the bible 100 times without truly understanding what it means just as I can read my thermodynamics textbook a hundred times does not make me an expert in thermodynamics...does it make sense to you that Jesus would die and all those things would be fullfilled such as the rise of the antichrist and so on in his generation?? I'll pray for you brother..God bless you
@tario26 If you read your thermo book 100 times and don't understand it, they you don't know how to read.
Pray til the cows come home. I hold that Jesus was not a historical figure and that all this is myth and legend. Indeed, even if their was a Jesus the NT was based on, he was certainly nothing like the person depicted in the Bible.
The Jason Bourne character is based on a real person. That doesn't mean Jason Bourne is real, or did anything written about him. Even if it took place in NY.
@tario26 "What he meant with "this generation shall not pass away" is that the generation during the time when everything is happening will see all the events unfold and be there till the end"
I know. And, as Mark 13, its parallels, and lots of other passages show, Jesus believed this was going to be the generation alive when he was speaking.
My only disagreement is on point 3. It only seems to fit a world of only atheists and hardcore believers. While hardcore Christians will undoubtedly keep their faith, those Christians who are on the fence might see it differently. I have only anecdotal evidence, but I and many atheists/non-religious people I've spoken to came to their present position gradually through many, many minor events and realizations.
It's like a baseball game, but the batter gets a lot more than three strikes.
@kissfan7 "those Christians who are on the fence might see it differently"
It's certainly possible. Of course, it's unlikely that Mr. Camping attracts many, if any, on-the-fence types. And one of the things I've found most interesting about moderate and liberal Christians is that in the main they have no problem dismissing both prophecies and prophetic disconfirmations. In other words, this sort of stuff doesn't really figure into why they are religious believers. That said, I totally...
(con't) @kissfan7 ...agree that people who have abandoned religious faith often have done so after a series of, as you put it, "minor events and realizations." But I'm not sure one can characterize a major prophetic failure as a "minor event," which is one of the reasons why the persistence of faith despite such prophetic failures is so fascinating.
@ProfMTH Let em have another member to add to their trinity. Give em all a multi ego I don't care. So long as all they are doing singing to the sky and gossiping about their neighbours. Its when they try to attribute actual meaning to that shambles of a book and fall under the illusion of divine knowledge that the trouble starts.
@ProfMTH Concerning your deductive argument against Jesus being God due to His ignorance, have you read Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by Craig and Moreland? In it, they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious. This would allow Him to be unaware of the end times yet still possess omniscience.
@lobothesacred3 That is the argument. They write: "The Logos allowed only those facets of his person to be part of Christ's waking consciousness which were compatible with typical human experience, while the bulk of his knowledge and other cognitive perfections, like an iceberg beneath the water's surface, lay submerged in his subconscious." This address passages such as Mark 13:32. It is also compatible with psychoanalysis, which presumes that we behave based upon subconscious drives.
@Teachthecross - Is his argument supposed to be convincing? I could make the same claim about people in general and it would be just as untestable.
And, I would explain the human search for knowledge as a subconscious drive to become consciously aware of all of the information stored in our subconscious.
I don't understand why Craig is hoisted as some great Christian apologist is most famous argument that I recall doesn't even line up with Christianity buy deism.
@lobothesacred3 People in general would display sublimal facets of omniscience then. Craig and Moreland quote Charles Harris on the effects of the subconscious upon the conscious. He states that a hypnotized person may be informed of facts and then told to forget them upon awakening but "the knowledge is truly in his mind, and shows itself in unmistakable ways, especially by causing him to perform...certain actions, which, but for the possession of this knowledge, he would not have performed."
@Teachthecross - "Craig and Moreland quote Charles Harris on the effects of the subconscious upon the conscious."
Not everyone agrees that a subconscious mind exists. Many prefer to call it the unconscious mind seems it seems to perform actions without any actual conscious though. I don't exactly command my heart to constantly beat. It also doesn't help that attempts to influence the so called subconscious like playing songs backwards to here hidden messages doesn't work.
@Teachthecross - "People in general would display sublimal facets of omniscience then."
What would be a display of omniscience? A sudden sense of danger before being attacked by a large animal. The ability to perform an action near perfectly with little training?
@lobothesacred3 Let's stick to one comment at a time please. "What would be a display of omniscience?" This theory says that Jesus was "actually ignorant of certain facts, though kept from error and often supernaturally illumined by the divine subliminal." Thus, display of such an attribute in a regular person ought to keep them from making erroneous statements, and they ought to have a true glimpse into divine knowledge. Jesus, for example, foreknew of His death.
@Teachthecross - "Jesus, for example, foreknew of His death."
Doesn't everybody die?
Plus, some people have suggested that Jesus asked Judas to betray him to Romans. So, Jesus foreseeing his own death becomes less impressive if he orchestrated.
It also doesn't help if Jesus was claiming to be the "King of the Jews" since that title belonged to someone else at the time. The Romans would have executed him over being an usurper to authority he didn't have.
@lobothesacred3 While I could defend Jesus' foreknowledge of His death, I'm not interested so much in the example as the principle that Christ was "often supernaturally illumined by the divine subliminal", and that this illumination manifests itself. As for the subconscious, the demonstration used was hypnotism, not playing backward messages. The person is not forgetting merely where they learned the information; they have lost the ability to consciously recall the information at all.
@Teachthecross - "He states that a hypnotized person may be informed of facts and then told to forget them upon awakening but 'the knowledge is truly in his mind, and shows itself in unmistakable ways, especially by causing him to perform...certain actions, which, but for the possession of this knowledge, he would not have performed.'"
Then the person didn't forget the knowledge or lose the ability to recall it. At best they forget where they learned the information.
@Teachthecross First, do you truly want to equate "subconscious drives" with knowledge? Second, regarding the bit about "[t]he Logos" limiting his "consciousness [to those things] which were compatible with typical human experience," Craig and Moreland's hypothesis doesn't comport with many portions of the New Testament. For example, knowing people's thoughts is not "compatible with typical human experience." However, the gospels have Jesus knowing people's thoughts--see, e.g., Luke 11:17.
(con't) @Teachthecross The other thing to keep in mind--in some ways, it's the bigger problem here (one I intend to address in a follow-up video to this one)--Mark 13:32 has Jesus claiming that knowledge of the precise time (day and hour) of Jesus' return is unique to "the Father." He plainly says "no one" knows other than "the Father." What Craig and Moreland's hypothesis ends up doing to Mark 13:32 is making a purportedly inspired passage of Christian scripture to declare a lie, i.e.,...
(con't) @Teachthecross ...pace what Jesus says in Mark 13:32, someone other than the Father *does* know precisely when Jesus will return, namely, the Logos (who buried the knowledge in the subconscious of the person of Jesus). In order to rescue belief in Jesus' being omniscient, they end up making a passage of their scripture into a false statement.
@ProfMTH "[D]o you truly want to equate 'subconscious drives' with knowledge?" No, a more appropriate word with respect to subconsciousness would be perception, not drive. Craig and Moreland state that "the bulk" of Christ's knowledge lay submerged, not the entirety, so I see no inconsistency. By typical human experience, they mean that "Jesus knew the whole gamut of human anxieties and felt physical hurt and fatigue." I find this view persuasive in defending the doctrine of the Incarnation.
@Teachthecross Logos? Oh, right, that idea though up by Philo of Alexandria and later copted by Christians, of whom we have 800000 extant words. The same Philo who was from Galilea and who lived at the same time as the so-called events in the Bible, yet in those hundreds of thousands of words, including history, never mentions Jesus or any event in the NT.
"In it, they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious."
Yes, yes. Blah, di, di, blah, blah. If the Jesus depicted in the Bible ever existed, he is two thousand years dead. The only evidence that can be called on to test such a claim are those few verses found in the Bible, and they contradict the claim. The only recourse you can take from there is to state that the Bible is an unreliable source, but that doesn't help your cause either.
"If the Jesus depicted in the Bible ever existed, he is two thousand years dead."
@threewiseman1 Not just dead; he didn't even write anything himself. The bible depends on a bunch of puppeteers who passed ventriloquism off as revelation.
"The only evidence that can be called on to test such a claim are those few verses found in the Bible,.."
@threewiseman1 No autographs exist so there's no real bible to test. All they have is fragmented manuscript hearsay of errant, fallible copyists.
@Teachthecross "they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious. This would allow Him to be unaware of the end times yet still possess omniscience."
A sort of "he didn't know what he knew" kind of thing? Do you find that this is compelling, makes sense, and is persuasive?
@ProfMTH Fair Share is dedicated to economic justice. Most corporations do not pay taxes even when they are making billions. people making minimum wage pay more taxes than Google. So I'm trying to create a movement calling for the rich the corporations and also the churches to pay their fair share. Come to my channel and you'll see I've gotten a bunch of people to make videos talking about it. So the Olympics is a competition offering prizes for people who are willing to make videos Cntd
@ProfMTH It's a contest offering prizes to make videos on the Fair Share theme. So check out the videos Fair Share and Fair Share to get a basic idea. Fair Share 2 gives a partial list of corporations who don't pay taxes. Milking the Sacred Cow calls for ending tax exempt status for churches and Fair Share Olympics will show you the prizes I am offering to the winners. Check it out have some fun and help me change America
Hey Prof, if Jesus is God, and theyre one in the same, and theres only one god, then how can one know and not the other? I asked my evangelical neighbor this and he got furious and said I was hellbound for asking.
the rapture happened, its just that nobody was worthy. Well, maybe a few homeless people and hermits, but nobody noticed them when they were here anyway.
How long did it take to make this video, ProfMTH? With an overwhelming of likes:dislikes of 1618:29 I am sure that most people, including myself, appreciate the work. Thanks!
Excellent video! To be sure, we all know for certain that every prediction around this issue will be wrong. But those who cling to the idea that it will eventually happen, simply cannot deny the possibility that one of these predictions might , quite accidentally, be correct! Oh the humanity...
Still recovering from the spiritual rapture. My brain still tells me I'm an atheist, but I "felt" something ... hope my brain catches up to my emotions before October 21.
I feel bad for Mr. Camping - he just wants the rapture to happen before he dies. :(
SaffronSkunk 2 weeks ago
Oh and for the record.. The man that predicted May 21st to be the day of the rapture and judgment was (himself alone) a selfrighteous man claiming to have figured out what the lord clearly said no man would ever know until the actual moment it takes place.. This man himself labeled a day all on his own.. NOT GOD!! so think before you speak blaspemy against the King of Kings And Lord of Lords through your videos or whatever else you us to spread your lies..
92reshaun 1 month ago
The Holy Bible speaks on these exact scenarios of the nonbelievers.. Nonbelievers will taunt the true believing Christians with questions basically like "where is your messiah that you said would return" etc etc!
I just thank The Lord Our God for all that he has done for us all and myself personally. and for the perfect love and beauty of our Great Big beautiful Christian Family in Christ now and forever
92reshaun 1 month ago
@92reshaun "The Holy Bible speaks on these exact scenarios of the nonbelievers.. Nonbelievers will taunt the true believing Christians with questions basically like "where is your messiah that you said would return" etc etc!"
Interestingly, the verses that do this were written in response to early Christian wondering about why Jesus had not returned as quickly as he was purported to have said he would. Christians have been working to dismiss this prophetic failure for a VERY long time.
ProfMTH 1 month ago
@ProfMTH (no disrespect but,) You're obviously ignorant to the spoken prophecies that must come before the rapture can occur. Maybe you just choose to live your life for the sole purpose of discrediting and attacking Christianity at it's very foundation. I don't know, But I'll tell you this. God knows your heart, that it is hardened and your mind of ignorance by choice. and it's because of this that you're blind to the very truth of the Holy Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ thereof.
92reshaun 1 month ago
@92reshaun "You're obviously ignorant to the spoken prophecies that must come before the rapture can occur."
What "spoken prophecies"? Be specific.
"Maybe you just choose to live your life for the sole purpose of discrediting and attacking Christianity at it's very foundation. I don't know...."
No, you don't know. I'll tell you: it's not why I live my life. But even if it were, the argument's merits would still have to be addressed. Look up the ad hominem fallacy and learn to avoid it.
ProfMTH 1 month ago
@ProfMTH (Mathew 24:36) "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Speaking of the rapture). So this leads me to ask you if you believe in yourself to know the mind of God? because (1 Corinthians 2:11) says different. But ask yourself, If God knows the time is not just yet for the end to finally come, Then why would he remove the Church prematurely when there's still time left for soles to be saved?
92reshaun 1 month ago
@ProfMTH Secondly, The Holy Spirit must be present on this earth continuously until the time of the Antichrist's coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:7) "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." He who now restrains is the "Holy Spirit" which is present through Gods people "The Church" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit,.."
92reshaun 1 month ago
@ProfMTH So hopefully now you can see why we Christians are still here. These people (past, present and future) that say "we've missed his coming or he isn't coming" are in error of the scriptures and have allowed man made ideas or traditions (that are always corrupt) rule their minds instead of God. And it's for this reason that Apostle Paul corrected the early saints in scriptures like (1 Thessalonians 4:17) i believe.
92reshaun 1 month ago
@ProfMTH Notice he speaks as if the rapture is going to take place during their point in time? That's because only God knows the day and hour of his coming. and it is for this reason that he instructed us to (always be ready and on guard in the faith and our walk with God, because we know not the day nor hour of the coming of the son of man.)
92reshaun 1 month ago
@92reshaun Adding no disrespect doesn't make you respectful - you should learn what respect is. Your threats don't scare anyone because we don't believe in your multi-self-refuting god. You do not have special eyes that can see the "truth" - you only live in your own world of delusion.
SaffronSkunk 2 weeks ago
@SaffronSkunk So answer this question for me then brother; How is Muhammad a prophet if he never gave a single prophecy?
92reshaun 2 weeks ago
Paulstianity is a cult doctrine which was rammed down the throat of the innocent docile Gentiles so as to bring them to the feet of a fictitious latinized Jew. The founder of the cult was a Big Liar, Agnostic Paul, a cunning Jew. He created a perfect slave system for the benefit of the world Jewry. Poor Gentiles have to fall flat on the feet of this man-god for worship . They can never by-pass this man god to reach their true Creator. Those who figured out are turning to Islam by the millions.
trs24june 4 months ago
Jesus said: I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father eccept through me.
Jesus is coming soon repent and ask Jesus to come into your heart, so you can have eternal life and be saved in Jesus name.
nick2015777 4 months ago
woah ,ProfMTH ,was here IN PERSON ..all should see his YT channel ,especially on his methodical destruction of the numerous fatuous claims that christ's coming was fortold in various OT prophecys ..
warning ;rational christians should steer well clear ,your early apologists are clearly exposed as often being intentionally dishonest as well as merely inept in promoting these still widely believed bits of partisan chicanery.
woodenmajor 5 months ago
The funny thing is that ALL christians believe in the same insane shit that Harold Camping does..the only difference is that Harold Camping put a date on it.
mikefromwa 6 months ago
@mikefromwa - I don't know if they believe in all of the same "insane shit" after all Harold Camping's Family Radio promotes the idea that the moon is/has been volcanically active within the last century or so. And, this volcanic activity disproves the age of the Earth and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.
lobothesacred3 5 months ago
@lobothesacred3: "I don't know if they believe in all of the same "insane shit""
They do. No difference at all except he put a date on it.
"proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the Earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old."
Lol, right. ALL the scientists and ALL the geologists and ALL the astronomers and ALL the cosmologists are wrong. The truth is in the holy book of fairy tales, written by people who believed the Earth was flat.
Yeah, how could it get any more scientific than that?
mikefromwa 5 months ago
Jesus is not a false profit study what the bible says
dukedrywall1 6 months ago
@dukedrywall1 I have studied what the Bible says. And you should learn how to spell 'prophet' correctly.
ProfMTH 6 months ago 9
@ProfMTH Please try and seek Jesus Christ with all of your heart just *ones in your lifetime and he [promises] to reveal himself to the person who does this.
loveemma1212 6 months ago
@loveemma1212 - I'm guessing that you didn't know, but ProfMTH is a former Christian.
lobothesacred3 5 months ago
@lobothesacred3 Then what do you know about Jesus?
loveemma1212 4 months ago
@ProfMTH - Jesus most definitely doesn't make a "false profit" just look at how much money the various Christian churches are raking in. They put their stamp of approval on everything. You have to have your very own Bible, Jesus Fish, Jesus T-Shirt, Jesus boxers, Cross Earrings, Cross Necklace, and your blessed underwear.
The Christian church is more into merchandising then Yogurt from Spaceballs.
lobothesacred3 5 months ago
@dukedrywall1: "Jesus is not a false profit study what the bible says"
Oh, well, if it says so in a 2000 year old book written by ignorant, desert-dwelling goat herders, then it MUST be true!
mikefromwa 6 months ago
@dukedrywall1 lmfao wow. use the bible to prove the bible? really?
bobby472 6 months ago
@dukedrywall1 Moron... Atheists study the bible more than Christians do. That's partially WHY they became atheists. The single most damning source of evidence AGAINST Christianity is none other than the bible itself. But you know what's ironic? Even if 100% of Christians studied their bible (instead of less than 10%) it wouldn't change anything because Christian apologists are mentally defective in a way that prevents them from seeing contradictions in their doctrine.
88rat88 4 months ago 2
"Perfect in manhood"......nice.
LordProfBear 7 months ago
@LordProfBear ;-)
ProfMTH 7 months ago
Biblical vagueness is the apologists greatest tool. For without it they couldn't spin their way out of contradictions.
socksumi 8 months ago 4
@socksumi The Bible is only vague to those without 'The Spirit'. For people reading the Bible when guided by 'The Spirit', the meaning is clear and concrete. Just look at the evidence. There are over 20,000 denominations of Christians, all of them are certain that they have the absolutely definitive version of the truth. How can you argue with the absolute certainty of so many divergent groups? Basic reasoning shows that the Bible is not at all vague.
LordProfBear 7 months ago
@LordProfBear I can argue about their "certainty" precisely because there are 20,000 divergent denominations. Historically biblical scholars have quarreled about scripture sometimes to the point of violence and accordingly have divided themselves into thousands of Christian splinter groups (denominations). This aptly demonstrates the bible's inherent vagueness along with its divisiveness. Your current understanding of scripture is radically different than Christians of generations past.
socksumi 7 months ago
Con't All you need to do is look all the youtube Christian videos and you'll find thousands of Christians at crosshairs debating and arguing with each other over the meaning of scripture. Whether it's the faith vs works debate, legalistic interpretations, evidence for miracles, or issues of a more petty nature you'll find Christians proclaiming their positions with absolute certainty yet at odds with fellow Christians of a different church.
socksumi 7 months ago
@socksumi I need a big neon sign that I can hang from my posts that reads "irony".
LordProfBear 7 months ago
@LordProfBear I think I may have misread your post after looking at your channel and realizing you are indeed a thoughtful person.
socksumi 7 months ago
@socksumi Not much of a channel, I'm afraid. I was planning on doing some proper work on it but unfortunately I've been rather busy; hopefully I can amend that in the near future. I thought the phrase "How can you argue with the absolute certainty of so many divergent groups?" would have given away the 'joke'. alas. Thanks for the compliment and best wishes.
LordProfBear 7 months ago
@LordProfBear
The fact that there are "over 20,000 denominations of christians, all of them are certain that they have the absolutely definitive version of the truth," does of itself reflect the bible's vagueness, and that Christianity is not in conformity. And this is coming from a Born-Again Christian. I hate to admit it, but there is truth to a lot of the things ProfMTH is saying. Many of us have never done research on Christianity and Religion....we just accepted the things we were taught.
tmat04 5 months ago
@tmat04 That was the joke.....
LordProfBear 5 months ago
Just a non-topic-related comment... ProfMTH to me sounds a lot like Brian from Family Guy...
bigbattenberg 8 months ago
First, a well done video. However, you have not done your homework. Up until the early 20th Century, Most of the Biblical Scholars from the First Century onward applied the Mark, Matthew and Luke passages to the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The language of the N.T. is Hyperbolic and used to describe a "really bad thing" see Josephus, Eusebius, Chrystostom, Athanasius, John Lightfoot, Milton Terry, Augustine, John Gill, and others. Also 70 A.D. was within
the generation of listeners.
cnighlfilms 8 months ago
@cnighlfilms "The language of the N.T. is Hyperbolic and used to describe a "really bad thing""
Quick point I want to make about that. In the contemporary english version of the bible, the "abomination of desolation" as it is translated in other texts, is rendered "that horrible thing" in that bible version. What you said just reminded me of that. Perhaps "that horrible thing" is a better translation describing the event.
doobdoob2 7 months ago
@ProfMTH Just a Q. are you a retarded "IMAM" or how did you get to that about Jesus being a false prophet? C'mon at list try to stick to the contest of what Jesus was saying even a 8 year old can get that Jesus in Mark 13: v 24-31 was saying > that the generation when the things that he mentions where happening will not pass away< i have a bible in my lingo and is saying that even if i did not you can simply get it in the contest,so he was not talking for he's present generation but a future one
dandom01 8 months ago
@dandom01 "Just a Q. are you a retarded "IMAM" or how did you get to that about Jesus being a false prophet?"
If you don't understand how I got to the conclusion that Jesus is a false prophet by the Bible's own standard, then you should watch the video again and pay very close attention.
"at list try to stick to the contest of what Jesus was saying "
Contest? I suspect you mean context. If you're going to start a message to someone by asking if they're "retarded," you'd do well...
ProfMTH 8 months ago 3
(con't) @dandom01 ...to be totally on top of your own game. Some free advice for you.
"he was not talking for he's present generation but a future one"
The text is quite plain that Jesus was talking about the generation alive when he was speaking. He said that all the events he had described would take place before that generation passed away.
ProfMTH 8 months ago 3
Harold Camping didn't make Christianity look foolish, he only exposed the fact that Christianity and Religion itself is foolish.
ccheng21 8 months ago
this is ur monalisa bro.Offcourse dogma is immune to knowledge.the thing is even if NOONE knows the exact day, someone COULD guess, i mean, i may not know which r the next lottery winners but i could guess, would that make me a proven pshyquic? what if I predict the rapture is next monday and it does happen, would this make me a true PROFET? It coulda happend may 21 still that wouldnt make Mr. Camp any less of a false profet.as always "Unfalsifiable" is the common denominator of xristianity.
jrev37 8 months ago
2. which is why xristianity can not survive without faith. this isnt hard to understand, what is hard to understand is that these xristians are calling out mr camp on his false prophecies yet theyre so blind to the ones they themselves believe in, INfuckingCredible. and about the guy who says "he's making xristianity look foolish" yeah, as if xristianity needs someone to make it look foolish. lol
jrev37 8 months ago
@boggisthecat "The usual translation in this passage is "generation" and the usual argument is that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD kicked off the "end times"."
Obviously, Scripture assures that the Gospel would be preached over the entire Earth before the end. This wasn't going to happen in one "generation" as the typical english speaking person understands the term. It took the Christians centuries to just stop being butchered. The moment Christ died the end times began.
caelachyt 8 months ago
@hawklord2001 ." I say again, until the existence of God can be proven anything referring to the afterlife, or Jesus' divinity is meaningless."
It seems entirely reasonable that the confirmation of the existence of dark energy does prove the existence of God, though those with motives that are not in concert with truth will surely discount such reason, somehow.
caelachyt 8 months ago
An educated and informative but nevertheless interessing and entertaining video. Thank you for your effort, sir!
dattelpalme83 8 months ago
@dattelpalme83 Thanks.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
One problem I have with your video and most other videos that depict jesus.
jesus was not white, he was an arab jew. I would really like to see photographic imagery that is more consistent with osama bin laden as jesus then a white man.
pillowbugg 8 months ago
@pillowbugg - Jesus and God strangely tend to take on the ethnicity of the believer. It seems like most of them don't realize that Jesus would look like someone from the middle east.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 exactly. And notwithstanding that fact, the majority of bible believing Christians are prejudice towards Arab races. Seems ironic.
pillowbugg 8 months ago
@pillowbugg - I think the prejudice is more towards Islam then Arabs. The first thing I think about Arabs and I think about Islam. And Islam brings up thoughts about 9/11, Osama Bin Laden, suicide bombers, and the various military campaigns of the prophet Muhammad.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 well, using that standard; the entire planetary population should have post-tramatic stress disorder with the mere mention of christianity or caucasions.
pillowbugg 8 months ago
@pillowbugg - I don't understand your response. I'm only saying that when people think of the Middle East then think of Islam. And Islam has a lot of baggage in the United States do to Muslim extremists. Then, again when I think about Christianity the imagery isn't much better.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 I was responding to your suggestion about the stereotype associated with islam in the united states and I was simply extending the worlds distain for Christians.
pillowbugg 8 months ago
Awesome video. Almost makes me want to read and study Da Babble so that I too could point out these fallacies and contradictions.
Three thumbs up!!! -- That should confuse christians for awhile. :P
ReligiousJezta 8 months ago
@ReligiousJezta the only people confused at all are the athiest! lol
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10
ahmalala 8 months ago
@ahmalala but that book's full of crap D: surely what it says shouldn't be taken seriously? i mean, between the unicorns, giants, sea monsters, talking snakes, zombies, etc. it seems pretty wild o.o
TheFearmonger 8 months ago
@TheFearmonger - What about the dragons?
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 dude, dragons are SO totally real o.o it says so here in this really neat book *shows off eragon* its so neat, i think everyone could learn a lesson from it.
TheFearmonger 8 months ago
@ReligiousJezta lol Thanks a lot.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
Going to the Jesus was not God thing: What he said makes sense if you understand the holy trinity. Jesus wasn't really "God", but a part of God, not the whole God, but a deity.
masteretl 8 months ago
@masteretl What you have described is *not* the orthodox Christian understanding of the Trinity.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
YO GOT IT ALL WRONG! MAYAN IS THE ONE TRUE RELIGION, DEC. 12TH 2012 FTW!
hanyuo 8 months ago
Billy Bob Neck (on YouTube) says that he was raptured and sat at the right hand of god. However, god asked him to come back to sort things out.
stevehayes13 8 months ago
Blow the trumpet, theists fail again. Not exactly news..
chestbuster1987 8 months ago
Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 8 months ago
The rapture is coming and Jesus christ is coming! Your really going to say those things your hole life then stand if front of Jesus christ himself and explain yourself to him on judgement day? Repent to Jesus because God loves you! put your faith in Jesus and make him lord and savior. Jesus saved my life and can help you if you only seek him in spirit and truth.
bass109 8 months ago
@bass109 Hope he brings santa and the easter bunny with him
legaliseall 8 months ago
9:22 Do not worry my good sir.. Christianity has been very good at making itself look foolish for over 2000 years. Harold was just another one for the list. Nothing more, nothing less.
Shangori 8 months ago
I love studying the history of apocalyptic ideas. Excellent video!
wayman29 8 months ago
@wayman29 Thanks. I took a great seminar as an undergraduate on visions of paradise and apocalypse. Fascinating stuff. I did my seminar paper on The Communist Manifesto as a secular version of the Book of Revelation.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH
Earl Doherty points out that Gospel tradition and the Epistle tradition are not in agreement on the matter of the Last Days. While the Gospels have Jesus foretell his RETURN, the Epistles speak of his COMING.
No epistle, Doherty claims, makes mention of disciples. Neither Paul nor Jude nor Peter, etc. seem aware of an earthly Jesus ever having lived, taught or taken on followers.
Christianity appears to be based on at least two conflicting traditions - unreconciled.
.
Fascinating!
EvenGodsSuffer 8 months ago
@EvenGodsSuffer "Neither Paul nor Jude nor Peter, etc. seem aware of an earthly Jesus ever having lived, taught or taken on followers."
See,e.g.: Gal 4:4, "God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the Law"; Heb 5:7 "In the days of his flesh, he offered up prayers & supplications with loud crying & tears to the one able to save him from death, & he was heard"; 1 Cor 11:23-24, "Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread; & when he had given thanks, he broke it & said..."
ProfMTH 8 months ago
(con't) I think all of those passages (and others) refer to an earthly Jesus who lived, et cetera. That said, there is no doubt that Christianity is based on a number of conflicting and unreconciled traditions.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ProfMTH @EvenGodsSuffer
James F. McGrath has had a debate with Earl on this topic:
exploringourmatrix.blogspot\.com/2011/05/chapter-5-of-earl-dohertys-jesus\.html
exploringourmatrix.blogspot\.com/2010/12/scholars-assembling-puzzles\.html
jesuspuzzle.humanists\.net/rfholdin\.htm
jesuspuzzle.humanists\.net/rfindex\.htm
AlainG80 8 months ago
@ProfMTH
I'm sure those objections are too obvious for Doherty not to have addressed them himself. I am merely bringing it up as an alternative view, one which I find novel and interesting.
The YouTube atheist Truthsurge has a entire series devoted to it.
E.g., I find it similarly interesting that the Nicene Creed, while holding to a resurrection, general judgment and a "life of the ages to come", makes no mention of a soul, its individual judgment immediately upon death, nor of Heaven nor Hell.
EvenGodsSuffer 8 months ago
@EvenGodsSuffer It seems until the year 553, there was no official statement on such matters. It is inferred that Ignatious of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus & Arnobius favored annihilation. Enoch & Ezra had introduced the eternal torment doctrine & Tertullian championed it. Gregory of Nyssa taught universalism as well as Origen who hinted at pre-existence of souls & reincarnation (Contra Celsum). Not until Justinian pushed the church to teach eternal torment, was a doctrine of afterlife set.
MySocksSmell2 8 months ago
@MySocksSmell2 (1)- And, yet it isn't really set since Christians are still arguing over the nature of the afterlife. Since, some modern day Christians prefer to interpret Hell as an absence of God. Though, how you can ever be separated from a being that is supposedly omnipresent is beyond me. Some Christians seem to prefer the annihilation stance and others prefer a literal hell.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 (2) - And just to make the situation more convoluted Christians can't agree on how to get into heaven anymore either. Some Christians seem to accept the idea that people that are generally good can still get into heaven without faith in Jesus.
So being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean I can't go to heaven that Christians believe in according to some of them. And some Christians even think Muslims can get into heaven as well.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 Now it's impossible to add a statement about hell/heaven to the Nicene Creed, because there's no more Roman/Byzantine emperor to demand an ecumenical council, threaten the bishops to vote on a doctrine he likes, then implement conformity by sword throughout Christendom. Ahh, the good old days of Caesaropapist theocracy when the Vicar of Christ could depose Patriarchs &, lock Popes in jail, minority opinions could be squashed, heretics punished & X-ian unity enforced by the state.
MySocksSmell2 8 months ago
@EvenGodsSuffer "I'm sure those objections are too obvious for Doherty not to have addressed them himself."
So what does he say about them?
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH
"So what does he say about them?"
.
Come on, Prof!
I've presented an alternative view which I have found interesting. That's all.
TruthSurge has a 40 part series including presentation and and replies to objections. I'm not going to rummage through it all again just to find Doherty's answers to your three objections.
If you're really and truly interested in the answers, do your own research. Check out his channel.
Personally, I found it fascinating. You may also.
EvenGodsSuffer 8 months ago
@EvenGodsSuffer "Come on, Prof! I've presented an alternative view which I have found interesting. That's all."
I know. I'm not allowed to ask any questions about it? I showed several examples of the epistles doing precisely what you say Doherty claims the they don't do. I'd be interested to know what he says about them. If you don't know, no big deal.
"do your own research."
I always do. I'll give you an admonition, too: if you're not prepared to defend a claim, don't make it.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Mark 13:30 has nothing to do with Jerusalem. I suggest instead of picking a verse out of an entire chapter you read the actual chapter. Of which generation was Jesus speaking of? If you were indeed learnt in these scriptures then you would have saw that he said when you see the things spoken of in Daniel Mark 13:14. The generation Jesus referred to was not that of Jerusalem. That is dealt with in another verse where Jesus Prophesies the Destructio of Jerusalem in Matthew 23.
Adriangrosvenor 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Your dealing with two complete different issues here, and meshing them as the same. Saying that he would come back during the reign of Rome before it fell would have exposed him as a liar, as it is withing the Iron with clay that Anti-Christ is revealed. Not in the Iron. ANd while Jesus lived the ceasars reighned. Also you seem to have a problem differentiating between Yeshua and YHWH. While Jesus knows of the sighns, Yet it is not of his to appoint the day of his coming.
Adriangrosvenor 8 months ago
@ProfMTH As this is YHWH decisions. Also, Jesus is indeed God while at the same time He is not YHWH. Thats why it says Christ is at the right hand of YHWH. YHWH will decide the day of appointment of Yeshua/Christ Return. Yet at the same time the sighns of the approaching of that time has been revealed to us through Christ. While we must be aware of false Prophets we must be able first to know scripture well. All this end time garbage is not biblical. Their are many other prophecies Christ
Adriangrosvenor 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Spoke of which must happen, These Prophecies are in Revelations, Daniel, And the New Testament, and many other books.
Adriangrosvenor 8 months ago
@ProfMTH
I contacted TruthSurge re Doherty's possible responses to your three verses. He replied that he already has videos addressing them planned for the future, along with the "seed of David" objection.
He did point out that, in 1Cor 11:23, "betrayed" should be translated "delivered over". In fact, Paul uses the same verb twice in that verse: "For I have received of the Lord that which I also παρεδωκα unto you … that, on the night he was παρεδιδετο …" Ref also Rom 4:25 and 1Cor 15:24.
EvenGodsSuffer 8 months ago
I look forward to the day that Christianity joins the ranks of the worship of Set, Umma Gumma, Zeus and Odin (as well as thousands of others) in the pantheon of dead and ridiculous beliefs...
johnycannuk 8 months ago
The logical problem with jesus speaking from two natures is: How can a READER of his speech KNOW which nature was speaking in which verses?
GetMeThere1 8 months ago 2
@GetMeThere1 That's what makes this so useful for the apologist. The standard (so to speak) is so flexible that it allows him or her to say "Jesus is speaking from his human nature" whenever s/he wants and "Jesus is speaking from his divine nature" whenever s/he wants.
ProfMTH 8 months ago 8
Mark 13:30 What he meant with "this generation shall not pass away" is that the generation during the time when everything is happening will see all the events unfold and be there till the end.......so we don't know when he will return or which generation but that the end times will conclude within that generation's time..In no way did Jesus mention that it would happen during HIS generation, this is wrong interpretation of scripture...email and i can elaborate further if needed
tario26 8 months ago
@tario26 Don't hurt yourself twisting into a pretzel there...
Sorry, you are wrong.
johnycannuk 8 months ago
@johnycannuk ok...because you said i am wrong i am wrong, my intent is to clear up some misconceptions here to make you realize that there was a misinterpetation of the verse..believe what you wish to believe...or you can be a man and see if what im telling you makes any sense at all..
tario26 8 months ago
@tario26 Having read the Bible many times, I can assure you you are wrong. You are rationalizing because you don;t want to admit that ProfMTH is right, and that the Bible itself back him up. You are implying ideas that simply do not exist in the text because you don't WANT it to be true.
Cognitive Dissonance. You has it...
johnycannuk 8 months ago
@johnycannuk congrats, you can read the bible 100 times without truly understanding what it means just as I can read my thermodynamics textbook a hundred times does not make me an expert in thermodynamics...does it make sense to you that Jesus would die and all those things would be fullfilled such as the rise of the antichrist and so on in his generation?? I'll pray for you brother..God bless you
tario26 8 months ago
@tario26 If you read your thermo book 100 times and don't understand it, they you don't know how to read.
Pray til the cows come home. I hold that Jesus was not a historical figure and that all this is myth and legend. Indeed, even if their was a Jesus the NT was based on, he was certainly nothing like the person depicted in the Bible.
The Jason Bourne character is based on a real person. That doesn't mean Jason Bourne is real, or did anything written about him. Even if it took place in NY.
johnycannuk 8 months ago
@tario26 "What he meant with "this generation shall not pass away" is that the generation during the time when everything is happening will see all the events unfold and be there till the end"
I know. And, as Mark 13, its parallels, and lots of other passages show, Jesus believed this was going to be the generation alive when he was speaking.
ProfMTH 8 months ago 4
My only disagreement is on point 3. It only seems to fit a world of only atheists and hardcore believers. While hardcore Christians will undoubtedly keep their faith, those Christians who are on the fence might see it differently. I have only anecdotal evidence, but I and many atheists/non-religious people I've spoken to came to their present position gradually through many, many minor events and realizations.
It's like a baseball game, but the batter gets a lot more than three strikes.
kissfan7 8 months ago
@kissfan7 "those Christians who are on the fence might see it differently"
It's certainly possible. Of course, it's unlikely that Mr. Camping attracts many, if any, on-the-fence types. And one of the things I've found most interesting about moderate and liberal Christians is that in the main they have no problem dismissing both prophecies and prophetic disconfirmations. In other words, this sort of stuff doesn't really figure into why they are religious believers. That said, I totally...
ProfMTH 8 months ago
(con't) @kissfan7 ...agree that people who have abandoned religious faith often have done so after a series of, as you put it, "minor events and realizations." But I'm not sure one can characterize a major prophetic failure as a "minor event," which is one of the reasons why the persistence of faith despite such prophetic failures is so fascinating.
Thanks for the comment.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Let em have another member to add to their trinity. Give em all a multi ego I don't care. So long as all they are doing singing to the sky and gossiping about their neighbours. Its when they try to attribute actual meaning to that shambles of a book and fall under the illusion of divine knowledge that the trouble starts.
flight1100 8 months ago
"Never mind, lads, same time tomorrow… we must get a winner one day." Beyond the Fringe, Cook, et al.
archolman 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Concerning your deductive argument against Jesus being God due to His ignorance, have you read Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by Craig and Moreland? In it, they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious. This would allow Him to be unaware of the end times yet still possess omniscience.
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - So, Craig and Moreland's argument is that an omniscient being was not aware that it was omniscient?
This claim doesn't even make sense.
It would like someone claiming to be omnipotent but then claiming he/she is not able to access his/her power.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 That is the argument. They write: "The Logos allowed only those facets of his person to be part of Christ's waking consciousness which were compatible with typical human experience, while the bulk of his knowledge and other cognitive perfections, like an iceberg beneath the water's surface, lay submerged in his subconscious." This address passages such as Mark 13:32. It is also compatible with psychoanalysis, which presumes that we behave based upon subconscious drives.
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - Is his argument supposed to be convincing? I could make the same claim about people in general and it would be just as untestable.
And, I would explain the human search for knowledge as a subconscious drive to become consciously aware of all of the information stored in our subconscious.
I don't understand why Craig is hoisted as some great Christian apologist is most famous argument that I recall doesn't even line up with Christianity buy deism.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 People in general would display sublimal facets of omniscience then. Craig and Moreland quote Charles Harris on the effects of the subconscious upon the conscious. He states that a hypnotized person may be informed of facts and then told to forget them upon awakening but "the knowledge is truly in his mind, and shows itself in unmistakable ways, especially by causing him to perform...certain actions, which, but for the possession of this knowledge, he would not have performed."
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - "Craig and Moreland quote Charles Harris on the effects of the subconscious upon the conscious."
Not everyone agrees that a subconscious mind exists. Many prefer to call it the unconscious mind seems it seems to perform actions without any actual conscious though. I don't exactly command my heart to constantly beat. It also doesn't help that attempts to influence the so called subconscious like playing songs backwards to here hidden messages doesn't work.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - "People in general would display sublimal facets of omniscience then."
What would be a display of omniscience? A sudden sense of danger before being attacked by a large animal. The ability to perform an action near perfectly with little training?
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 Let's stick to one comment at a time please. "What would be a display of omniscience?" This theory says that Jesus was "actually ignorant of certain facts, though kept from error and often supernaturally illumined by the divine subliminal." Thus, display of such an attribute in a regular person ought to keep them from making erroneous statements, and they ought to have a true glimpse into divine knowledge. Jesus, for example, foreknew of His death.
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - "Jesus, for example, foreknew of His death."
Doesn't everybody die?
Plus, some people have suggested that Jesus asked Judas to betray him to Romans. So, Jesus foreseeing his own death becomes less impressive if he orchestrated.
It also doesn't help if Jesus was claiming to be the "King of the Jews" since that title belonged to someone else at the time. The Romans would have executed him over being an usurper to authority he didn't have.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@lobothesacred3 While I could defend Jesus' foreknowledge of His death, I'm not interested so much in the example as the principle that Christ was "often supernaturally illumined by the divine subliminal", and that this illumination manifests itself. As for the subconscious, the demonstration used was hypnotism, not playing backward messages. The person is not forgetting merely where they learned the information; they have lost the ability to consciously recall the information at all.
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross - "He states that a hypnotized person may be informed of facts and then told to forget them upon awakening but 'the knowledge is truly in his mind, and shows itself in unmistakable ways, especially by causing him to perform...certain actions, which, but for the possession of this knowledge, he would not have performed.'"
Then the person didn't forget the knowledge or lose the ability to recall it. At best they forget where they learned the information.
lobothesacred3 8 months ago
@Teachthecross First, do you truly want to equate "subconscious drives" with knowledge? Second, regarding the bit about "[t]he Logos" limiting his "consciousness [to those things] which were compatible with typical human experience," Craig and Moreland's hypothesis doesn't comport with many portions of the New Testament. For example, knowing people's thoughts is not "compatible with typical human experience." However, the gospels have Jesus knowing people's thoughts--see, e.g., Luke 11:17.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
(con't) @Teachthecross The other thing to keep in mind--in some ways, it's the bigger problem here (one I intend to address in a follow-up video to this one)--Mark 13:32 has Jesus claiming that knowledge of the precise time (day and hour) of Jesus' return is unique to "the Father." He plainly says "no one" knows other than "the Father." What Craig and Moreland's hypothesis ends up doing to Mark 13:32 is making a purportedly inspired passage of Christian scripture to declare a lie, i.e.,...
ProfMTH 8 months ago
(con't) @Teachthecross ...pace what Jesus says in Mark 13:32, someone other than the Father *does* know precisely when Jesus will return, namely, the Logos (who buried the knowledge in the subconscious of the person of Jesus). In order to rescue belief in Jesus' being omniscient, they end up making a passage of their scripture into a false statement.
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH "[D]o you truly want to equate 'subconscious drives' with knowledge?" No, a more appropriate word with respect to subconsciousness would be perception, not drive. Craig and Moreland state that "the bulk" of Christ's knowledge lay submerged, not the entirety, so I see no inconsistency. By typical human experience, they mean that "Jesus knew the whole gamut of human anxieties and felt physical hurt and fatigue." I find this view persuasive in defending the doctrine of the Incarnation.
Teachthecross 8 months ago
@Teachthecross Logos? Oh, right, that idea though up by Philo of Alexandria and later copted by Christians, of whom we have 800000 extant words. The same Philo who was from Galilea and who lived at the same time as the so-called events in the Bible, yet in those hundreds of thousands of words, including history, never mentions Jesus or any event in the NT.
Yes, do go on about Logos....
johnycannuk 8 months ago
@Teachthecross
"In it, they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious."
Yes, yes. Blah, di, di, blah, blah. If the Jesus depicted in the Bible ever existed, he is two thousand years dead. The only evidence that can be called on to test such a claim are those few verses found in the Bible, and they contradict the claim. The only recourse you can take from there is to state that the Bible is an unreliable source, but that doesn't help your cause either.
threewiseman1 8 months ago
"If the Jesus depicted in the Bible ever existed, he is two thousand years dead."
@threewiseman1 Not just dead; he didn't even write anything himself. The bible depends on a bunch of puppeteers who passed ventriloquism off as revelation.
"The only evidence that can be called on to test such a claim are those few verses found in the Bible,.."
@threewiseman1 No autographs exist so there's no real bible to test. All they have is fragmented manuscript hearsay of errant, fallible copyists.
MySocksSmell2 8 months ago
@MySocksSmell2
"Not just dead; he didn't even write anything himself. The bible depends on a bunch of puppeteers who passed ventriloquism off as revelation."
I had been going to say something similar in my original comment though ran out of characters, thanks for the elaboration, MySockSmell2.
threewiseman1 8 months ago
@Teachthecross "they suggest that Christ may have divine knowledge stored within His subconscious. This would allow Him to be unaware of the end times yet still possess omniscience."
A sort of "he didn't know what he knew" kind of thing? Do you find that this is compelling, makes sense, and is persuasive?
ProfMTH 8 months ago 11
2011 minus 1994 = 19? Wow, no wonder they got the rapture date wrong. They cannot even do simple math.
srch4trth 8 months ago
There are tests in the bible? Do they grade on the curve? Cool video. I hope you'll enter the Fair Share Olympics
oldcomic1 8 months ago
@oldcomic1 Thanks. What's the Fair Share Olympics?
ProfMTH 8 months ago
@ProfMTH Fair Share is dedicated to economic justice. Most corporations do not pay taxes even when they are making billions. people making minimum wage pay more taxes than Google. So I'm trying to create a movement calling for the rich the corporations and also the churches to pay their fair share. Come to my channel and you'll see I've gotten a bunch of people to make videos talking about it. So the Olympics is a competition offering prizes for people who are willing to make videos Cntd
oldcomic1 8 months ago
@ProfMTH It's a contest offering prizes to make videos on the Fair Share theme. So check out the videos Fair Share and Fair Share to get a basic idea. Fair Share 2 gives a partial list of corporations who don't pay taxes. Milking the Sacred Cow calls for ending tax exempt status for churches and Fair Share Olympics will show you the prizes I am offering to the winners. Check it out have some fun and help me change America
oldcomic1 8 months ago
Who's singing the intro?
Isignorancebliss 8 months ago
Hey Prof, if Jesus is God, and theyre one in the same, and theres only one god, then how can one know and not the other? I asked my evangelical neighbor this and he got furious and said I was hellbound for asking.
MercuryRis 9 months ago
@MercuryRis oops, never mind, you explain this. Sorry. My next question is how come you look so young? Whats your secret? ;)
MercuryRis 9 months ago
@MercuryRis "Whats your secret? ;)"
Moisturize and use soft focus. ;-)
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@MercuryRis This is one of the questions that orthodox Christology leaves on the table unanswered, it seems to me.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
No, Prof, its OCTOBER! He forgot to carry the 2. :)
MercuryRis 9 months ago
Why was this not in my in-box? Or why did I miss it if it was? Where am I?
AncientAtheist 9 months ago
@AncientAtheist I don't know, baby. What I *do* know is that I'm glad you got to see it and even more glad that you took the time to comment. :-)
ProfMTH 9 months ago
the rapture happened, its just that nobody was worthy. Well, maybe a few homeless people and hermits, but nobody noticed them when they were here anyway.
tzedekyahu 9 months ago
14:18
Some happy nonbeliever smiling in the background! SMITE HIM :-)
Antixianos 9 months ago
@Antixianos "Some happy nonbeliever smiling in the background! SMITE HIM :-)"
LOL!
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ahmalala the tribulation hasn't happened either!
DavidNeff2011 9 months ago
nice one
Mr1B2D3F 9 months ago
@Mr1B2D3F Thanks.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
May 28th
Still Here, Still Atheist, Still Happy =^_^=
BlankPicketSign 9 months ago
@BlankPicketSign :-)
ProfMTH 9 months ago
How long did it take to make this video, ProfMTH? With an overwhelming of likes:dislikes of 1618:29 I am sure that most people, including myself, appreciate the work. Thanks!
ColonelCosmic 9 months ago
@ColonelCosmic A few hours. Thanks for the nice words.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
I just posted, as promised, my video responce to your video!
barefootID 9 months ago
@barefootID Thanks.
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH Jesus preached in Aramaic $
PeshittaNT 9 months ago
@PeshittaNT "Jesus preached in Aramaic."
Yes. So what?
ProfMTH 9 months ago
Excellent video! To be sure, we all know for certain that every prediction around this issue will be wrong. But those who cling to the idea that it will eventually happen, simply cannot deny the possibility that one of these predictions might , quite accidentally, be correct! Oh the humanity...
TheBissco 9 months ago
@TheBissco "Excellent video!"
Thanks a lot!
ProfMTH 9 months ago
DAMN that was good.
ToddAllenGates 9 months ago
@ToddAllenGates "DAMN that was good."
Thanks very much, my friend. How are you doing? :-)
ProfMTH 9 months ago
@ProfMTH
> How are you doing? :-)
Still recovering from the spiritual rapture. My brain still tells me I'm an atheist, but I "felt" something ... hope my brain catches up to my emotions before October 21.
ToddAllenGates 9 months ago
Well done Prof. Very well done.
EruditeScythian 9 months ago
@EruditeScythian "Well done Prof. Very well done."
Thanks!
ProfMTH 9 months ago
“The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.” -- H. L. Mencken
owlcowl 9 months ago