> "The Bible has had more influence upon Western civilization then any other book"
No doubt it's a well-known book. But what does it say of democracy? That comes more from the ancient Greeks. A representative government? That comes more from the ancient Romans.
No doubt the bible contains much wisdom too, but we pick & choose what we like. Would you consider it moral to stone a person for working on the Sabbath? (Num 15:32-36) For following a religion other than yours? (Deut 17:2-7)
> There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
That's about equality, but not about a democratic or representative government (which is why I think it's a stretch to say the bible is "the basis of modern civilization").
2 "Would you consider it moral to stone a person for working on the Sabbath? (Num 15:32-36) For following a religion other than yours? (Deut 17:2-7)"
The old story with the Old Testament...yap! that was then.
About the influence on the modern civilization I recently launched a challenge to a brother of yours - see my video "Message to Thunderf00t ( Let's see the Dr. Phil "Teue Colors" )" - the comments to this video came to be quite interesting.
"From a believer's point of view, how does one determine which parts of the Old Testament are still applicable and which no longer apply?"
1.
If the "believer" is protestant he will have a problem here, considering that in the Protestant world the same bible was interpreted in 30,000 different ways.
If the believer is Catholic, he will have a problem too, considering that infallible popes were even declare heretics, or ordered Crusade or genocides.
the bible, not the greatest story told? Dude, your right! So why are you posting this wack video, with ya fussy azz voice. The bible is god talking you bulldozier for brains, find a Steven king novel to discuss and stop.your disrespect,.before lightning strike your azz, clown! You trifling osver something.as perferct, and thats real and you want plY with it like its something compare to.bullshit fiction, .. sky kill yaself!!!
> The bible is god talking ...You trifling osver something.as perferct, and thats real
You TOTALLY missed the point of this video. The numerous weak points in the bible in the areas of fact (its ignorance about dinosaurs, the earth's orbit around the sun, etc.) and storytelling (ex: a "battle" between an Omnipotent god and an non-omnipotent devil is weak melodrama) is evidence the bible is NOT "god" talking, but simply the tales of Bronze Age goat-herder storytellers.
Being a medievalist, I deal almost entirely with christian compositions. Being an atheist, I of course do not believe any of them. However, I respect the bible for its role in shaping western civilization (both positive and negative), and find it fascinating from a historical standpoint. Though a poor example of literature (and often lacking in logic), the bible reveals a great deal about the those who composed it, and the values of people 2-3000 years ago.
> The Cross and resurrection to 'love one another' would have earned 'epic fail!'
These themes can be found in other religions as well, and they're no surprise from the secular perspective. I discuss these in other videos: "God sacrifices Self to appease Self (the cross),"The Evolution of the Afterlife" (resurrection), and "How the naturalistic explanation provides a fairly sturdy foundation for morality" (re: 'love one another').
> you are making a good case for the Bible being factual and not fictional.
I don't see how pointing out that things like the bloody Armageddon battle is more melodrama than drama (since an Omnipotent God could solve everything with the metaphorical blink of an eye) makes the bible "more" convincing.
Anyway, if your theology brings you joy, I have zero reason to try to make you change your mind. I don't make my videos to try to deconvert people. They're mainly for people who are already skeptics but who have trouble responding to pressure from proselytizers, or for believers who are tortured by doubt, cognitive dissonance (from the Problem of Suffering, Genesis vs. science, etc.), or irrational fears of hell.
But since you're happy with your faith, I'll just shut my big mouth!
> you have done a great job showing it is unlikely this is a purely fictional story.
My angle was not "fiction" vs. "fact" ... as an atheist, I see the Bible as a mix of history, legend, folklore, morality tales, etc.
My point for addressing aspects like "Satan" being unrealistically idiotic enough to oppose Omnipotence is that much of the bible is more "bad fiction" than "good fiction."
thanks todd , your words are easy to understand and your thoughts complex. if I had half your brain Id be more dangerous than i already am.thanks again keep em coming.
What would your thoughts be on Yahweh being his own crucible? As in He's a slave to his own nature. Like the Scorpion in the scorpion and the frog parable. The keeper of mysteries, the ultimate power.. Who knows what a being like that would actually translate to in reality/literature. It's hard to be objective about it because we always want to be idealists when it comes to a god of perfection.
another homosexual attacking the bible so that they may seek the shit of another mans ass.ALL atheists are homosexuals to attack church/ bible if not by small chance then merely brainwashed by homo people as humans easily gullible to anything until Time to see
i dont believe the intention of bible was written in order to merely entertain us. Unlike the escapism you experience when you read a novel, the bible cannot be put down and walked away from. Its not only only a historical recount of humanity, it also answers questions of our existence.
> i dont believe the intention of bible was written in order to merely entertain us.
I agree. It's just that when I started reading books on how to write good realistic fiction, it made me think about the bible and all the ways it falls into the "bad fiction" category:
(1) There's no compelling reason for the main protagonist (God) to experience conflict
(2) Satan is a two-dimensional bad guy
(3) The Bible's characters do not operate at maximum capacity: instead of solving their problems as cleverly and efficiently as they can, they behave unrealistically for the sake of forced (unnecessary) conflict/drama.
> Its not only a historical recount of humanity, it also answers questions of our existence.
Christians believe so, but Muslims tell us the book that does this is the Koran, Hindus tell us it's the Rig Veda, the Mormons tell us it's the Book of Mormon, the Zoroastrians say it's the Avesta, etc.
For those willing to analyze these texts critically, I feel the most logical conclusion is that ALL these books were created solely by ancient people who told stories about "questions of our existence": stories about how Creation came about, stories to explain suffering, stories of what happens after we die, etc.
What kind of horse shit is this???? The bible being a story book??? Try the phonebook on this subject of being the greatest fictional literature.. Nobody was trying to make you a fan. They've passed on their relationship with god and that doesn't need all those exciting elements you wish for.
> They've passed on their relationship with god and that doesn't need all those exciting elements you wish for
The point of this video is not that the Bible lacks exciting elements—for I feel the Bible *does* include exciting elements. The problem is that its stories include many of the typical weaknesses of poor fiction writing, such as characters going through drama/conflict at the expense of realistic behavior.
An example of this in a cheap horror movie is when a woman does something as idiotic as investigate a creepy sound from the attic alone holding only a candle (and dressed in a skimpy nightgown). Drama, yes, but at the expense of how people really behave.
An example of this in the Bible is when the Israelites idiotically worship a golden calf right after they had supposedly witnessed—first hand—God's power and fury. Drama, yes (as God orders the blood-splattering of 3,000 as "brother, friend, and neighbor" are sliced by the sword--Exodus 32:27-28), but it's drama at the expense of how people really behave.
Then you scoff at the killing of 3000 rebels. Well let me tell you that when you are being led over the bottom of the sea, having seen 10 plagues on egypt and people create a golden calf that you will kill them for this treachery. Trying to lure the people into rebellion. I believe thats what you did in the civil war didn't you kill eachother?? Those who wanted to be part of england against those who wanted to have the promised land for themselves??
It's not that I scoff at the killing. What I find to be unrealistic is that this story has it that thousands of Israelites saw God inflict the plagues and PART THE SEA yet were *still* foolish enough to defy such an angry and violent god. If I saw first-hand evidence like that I would become a hardcore believer. No need for "faith": the evidence would be undeniable.
@ToddAllenGates This is what the theory of evolution does to people. It makes them think that faith means to believe without seeing. Do you have a wife???? Have you been faithfull to her??? Was that because you knew she existed or because your sexlife was in/out shape? So you went thru the desert and cheated her??? Ahh you had a been hungry for that long and kept faithful??
You know the word faith is not the same as believe.
> It makes them think that faith means to believe without seeing.
It's a practical aspect of life that we all, to some extent, have "faith" (trust in authority) in others - like the "faith" I have in the weatherman's forecast. But secular "faith" is always tentative, and disappears at signs of contradictory evidence. But religious faith stays solid despite contradictory evidence (e.g. those who interpret Genesis literally).
Well in the bible EVERYONE who failed in faith were people who have seen MANY miracles.. King david for example.. He was a prophet for gods sake.. He killed another man for his wife. Is that faith?? or simply cheating god and thinking you can get away with it??
Would you just give everyone who stays at your side 72 virgins and give them all kinds of sexual, sensual and carnal pleasures like allah does?? So that'll keep heaven from emptying?? So you would create a brothel to keep up with satan?? As any being with morality, dignity and humanity would choose to serve him instead? Really tell me i'm waiting in anxiety to what you would have done.
Isaiah 45 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' " All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
So can you give me an answer which is comparable to that of god? Just.. Considering the holy angel would stick to your side?
@ToddAllenGates You can tell me all you want. But england would have slaughtered any opposition had you not won the war. And that would have been far more then 3000 people... Brothers who lived together and greeted eachother every day as brothers.. For the sake of who is king and who is not.
I mean daily?? In every hotel room?? Best seller of all time.. In all languages on the face of the earth... Really tell me what book would you compare to the bible. Still the best seller. Playboy magazine??? Really people in prison do read the bible BECAUSE it's interesting and exciting. Even if they tear it apart to smoke their cigarettes with the paper.
YOu say in the movie there was a cause for christ dying, superman bla.. Can you open genesis 22 and read it?? Abraham had to sacrifice his son. And god stopped him and he then gave the sacrifice which abraham could offer.. To whom did god sacrifice this lamb??? To another god?? or to himself?? Now god sacrificed to himself right??? He provided a lamb - from heaven - and sacrificed it to HIMSELF. Can you explain to me why god ordered abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place??
DId he want to tell abraham that it's good to sacrifice ones child?? He stated in the law that it's the greatest defilement and abomination that people sacrifice their children to demons. What was god trying to get across to abraham? Or did he try to tell him that what he was about to do is what god planned to do all along?? Sacrifice his own son?? Now you scoff at this.. But certainly most of the jews have rejected jesus. So there is something miraculous in this. That the story is authentic.
In fact the jews prove to us the authenticity of the story. And the connection thus between abraham sacrificing his son symbolically and his god sacrificing his son LITTERALY is proven to be authentic by a people that never accepted jesus as their messiah.
I'm drifting to a new topic now, but what's fascinating about Christianity is that unlike all the thousands of other ancient mythologies that believed in blood sacrifices to appease an angry god (the Greeks, Chinese, Aztecs, etc.), Christianity has it that b/c Jesus = God's son AND God Himself ... God arranges for Himself to be tortured so He can forgive sin.
Ahh this is a nice response. YOu said god had no worthy adversary. Lets say god has to be just because his angels have more responsibilities and humanity then him. He would have just destroyed satan and be done with it. They loved their brother.. And called it injust and satan would be the moral victor. After all what did he do wrong. All he wished for was adam and eve to receive the knowledge of right and wrong.
If the other side has no chance then you can tell me EASILLY what you would have done if you were god right??? Then let the world know how foolish our faith is by giving the answer. Finally don't use omnipotent as an excuse not to answer me.
So lets pretend god had destroyed both adam, eve and satan.. All the angels would be disgusted of such a tyrant... Assuming they would be holier then their god. They would all choose to worship satan as their new god and god would destroy all life. So satan would prank him in his last breath. Don't tell your next creation what you did to your last because they too would worship me.
First of all the bible tells us that god knew all that has happened and all which will happen in all the future because he lives outside of the dimension of time. So god knows eternity until undetermined time. So indeed.. He couldn't have been caught offguard. But your avoiding my question.
So exactly tell me what does omnipotence and omnipresence mean when your in the situation that you have to be fair and you don't want to harsh, but justice calls for exactly this? Or what could he have done?? Just destroy satan in the time of noah and reveal to murderers that he is god and mankind was not as bad as them??? So just be immoral again??
> So exactly tell me what does omnipotence and omnipresence mean when your in the situation that you have to be fair and you don't want to harsh, but justice calls for exactly this?
An omniscient omnipotent Creator wouldn't get caught in a bind.
You know what... YOur right here and this is so easy to see for someone as small as a mortal. But consider this. The bible tells about satan that he grew proud. And the snake was the wisest of all the creatures. The snake is satan right? So he was wiser then all the other angels. He did not keep his wisdom but it led him to his fall is what the bible teaches us. Is this uncommon behaviour? To think you are tougher then you really are? You've never seen this in real life? Would he really do that?
Did you know that the bible tells us that in the days of noah all the angels fell?? gen 6:2. So god loses his entire creation again because his angels have more humanity then him. And satan can tell god from inside hell: Well you better never tell any new creation what you did to the last, you tyrant/ and he'd be worshipped as the bringer of light to gods creation??
You know god is a god... But you seem to forget that he does have servants who are like god themselves. Now if you don't know what god is about and you think well he is the king and decides the rules.. You do not understand that angels really MUST disobey god if he is a tyrant if they are god like themselves. So they MUST worship satan if god cannot give a good respons..
Look you don't have to believe in the god of the bible to be able to answer my simple question as to what you would have done. I already knew what you believed when watching your movie so please answer the question and don't try to make me believe wether you believe or not because that is irrelevant to the question nor to me.
> And can you tell me: IF god took upon himself the responsiblity of the sins of his children. and the law dictates that the sinner must die. Then who has to die according to the law??? . . . you can tell me EASILLY what you would have done if you were god right? . . . you don't have to believe in the god of the bible to be able to answer my simple question
Well, I suppose if were God—the One who sets the Law—I wouldn't made the Law that the sinner must die.-
I might do something like make the Law that sinners take some constructive corrective action: for example, the thief must compensate the victim + do an amount of community service proportionate to the crime against the community.
What I don't think I'd do is create humans in a way that made them so susceptible to sin that 100% of them would fail and be worthy of hell . . . and then create the escape hatch of visiting earth in human form and arranging for myself to be tortured to death so that everyone who believed I died for them could go to heaven.
But Chriss179, given that you believe you have had dreams from God means your belief does not rest on the bible alone—your faith involves direct contact. And with that kind of experience, I can see how you believe that the bible is 100% true NO MATTER WHAT. I can see why you believe that if ideas & passages seem strange to us, that's our failing, not the bible's.
So given that we're coming from completely different perspectives—and unless I have some similarly spiritual visitation, we're coming from *irreconcilable* perspectives—I don't think we're accomplishing much here, other than wasting each other's time. But I thank you for your feedback thus far, and offer my advance apologies should I fail to get back to you.
1 John 4 Test the Spirits 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
No, having visions and dreams and talking to angels does not guarantee you they'r from god.
In fact if you know islam. Muhammad really had visions and revelations. Yes, a demon gave him all those visions and revelations. In fact it's biblical that demons do this. For example the witch of endor summoned the soul of samuel the propet. WHich was not samuel but satan. He disguises himself as an angel of light.
@ToddAllenGates You mean to say you are against jails?? Do you live in a lala land or something?? YOu really think that all that is wrong is a little correction has to be done??? Really god is injust to pay the ransom for those who want to be cleansed/corrected of their sin and to condemn those who do not want to be corrected/cleansed? So he would have to correct them all?? Forced correction, no more prison?
Really i thought that carrying a cross with christ, having to pray for those who hate and persecute you. Having to live out life until death takes you into his glory is enough correction. But you seem to think that there is this greater kind of correction you could have performed. So tell me how you would correct the incorrectable??? By hellfire??
You know i think it's actually quite strange that you would bring up this argument community service and treatment.
Matthew 3 7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
...
10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
@ToddAllenGates Really you think you have a good point in saying the unrepentant should do community service. You mean to say those who refuse to be helped and treated should be called gods children and the insurance should pay for them too, just like the children that do get treatment. That do community service..
Normally you would say: Well we'll see after death. I won't repent unless god reveals himself to me.
John 3 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
I will not receive treatment/de community service (have faith) unless god reveals himself.
You see, the law the sinner must die is good and 100% perfect, holy and already encompasses everything. BECAUSE god was never caught offguard. AND he will never forsake those who love him. And don't you dare say one can love god AND injustice! Thats the same as saying: I love my wife and cheating her.
So what response would YOU give if you were god... Knowing your angels MUST rebell against you if your answer is unholy. Your the one asking us the would he really do that question, so you answer it. What would you do.. ANd i'll tell you WHY the angels would all rebell and satan receives the kingdom and the glory.
@ToddAllenGates YOu say "God arranges for Himself to be tortured so He can forgive sin". I say: God payed a ransom in blood to have a moral basis to free mankind from their sins.Because if i were an angel and saw god EITHER forgive or condemn people without any moral basis i would surely rebell. Satan would be the moral victor. So you tell me, what would YOU do if you were god... Just forgive everybody?? But they started off perfect in the first place. Why wouldn't it all repeat itself?
> I say: God payed a ransom in blood to have a moral basis to free mankind from their sins.
I don't see how killing an innocent party makes up for sins of guilty. If judge finds a man guilty, and the judge then tortures his own son to pay the penalty for the guilty man's sons, that doesn't seem "just." And if the judge tortures "Himself" to make up for the man's sins, well, that seems nonsensical.
YOu don't see how the blood ransom could be put on a subsitute? So if you dent a car your insurance cannot pay for the damage?? You must bleed every penny.. Well could you please dent my car??? Insurance is unfair anyway.
Your gonna scoff at the insurance analogy??? Well let me take an example that would work for the insurance company.
Imagine your child, 6 years old is mentally disturbed by something. Lets say his mother died.. He has lots of troubles in school and one day he decides to vandalise a graveyard. The damage being 10.000 dollar. Did you know that if you get psychological help for the child that an insurance might pay for the damage. Assuming the parent had no idea his child was this mentally disturbed until this moment. THis kind of insurance will DEMAND the child be helped by a shrink. and the insurance pays!
You would call that unfair. But that is really not for you to decide. Thats a matter between the insurance company and the father who has to pay for the damage. In our case... We are the child of god. And god has to pay the price for our mistakes. And he will demand back every penny. Unless jesus pays our debts. The insurance... THats why god crushed his son. Unfair??? Thats not your business then.. Thats between the father and the insurance company..
You know, the analogy of the child vandalising a graveyard is perfect. I've know someone what was in that very situation and i once had a dream which i think was from god, comparing his sacrifice to that very situation. Yes, because it fits PERFECTLY! In christ we receive the treatment a child has to receive in order for the insurance to agree upon paying the debt. If you have faith you follow and do what is taught (the treatment). Then you are accepted as a child which makes god responsible.
Really if god tells his creation that a sinner is his child, then what are his victims going to say? Ahh well you destroyed my fathers grave.. Ahh well your gods child, i'll remember that when i visit my fathers grave and look upon it's desecration? Ofcourse not! I don't give a fuck wether you call him your child or not! Still his grave is desecrated and the price is not met! The price for sin is death. So EVEN THO god calls you his child the law has to be met. Thats where jesus stepped in.
And can you tell me: IF god took upon himself the responsiblity of the sins of his children. and the law dictates that the sinner must die. Then who has to die according to the law???
You know it's quite dumb that you actually think you have a point saying god had no worthy opponent. First of all he didn't ignite the war. The unworthy opponent did. GOd never intended to fight. Tho it's not like he was caught offguard, but still explain to me how you would solve the problem the devil created and i'll answer you why satan would have gotten the glory and you'd be his slave for eternity.
Your telling me that if your father has no safe in his house and does not put anything behind locks and lets you have all of his authority to use what is his that it would be his fault if you took the gun and killed your brother?? After all he laid it all out for you.. No, he even INTENDED for you to do it... Well if you tell this to a judge consider that you'll never see freedom agan.
Would you have done the cow trick, like with nebukadnessar?? He became stupid like a cow and ate grass for 7 years. Because like the computer receiving electricity from the wall plug, we all receive intellectual thought from god. So you would simply have made satan dumb as a cow. That way you could keep heaven from emptying? That way satan would be the moral victor and receive the worship and all moral life would live with him in his cowyness.
Really i'm betting that you'll evade my question only because there is no answer then the one god provided to us. if you do have an alternative answer you'll show just how foolish satan was and all the angels that fell with him thus proving the bible to be the book of anohter crappy false religion after all.
> Really i'm betting that you'll evade my question
If you want to claim victory, I don't mind. I don't think our exchanges are really accomplishing anything. My videos are not really aimed at believers--they're more for people who are already struggling with doubt and cognitive dissonance, or for skeptics looking for alternative approaches.
If you're happy with your faith, I wouldn't want to take it away from you even if I could (and I know I can't).
Ofcourse you can't take my faith. It was my intention to discharge all your arguments because to me they are silly and uneducated. You don't have to believe the bible to know this fact. As if believing in the judge means you can then understand moral from immoral or right from wrong. WRONG! Everybody can.. You don't need a judge to see if the law is just or injust.
also look at the story of kain and abel. In human eyes this is a ridiculous story. Abel sacrificed living animals to god and kain sacrificed green herbs to god. Why would a loving god bless the one who kills?? Can you explain this to me?? Isn't such a horrible thing to do??? To sacrifice a living animal. As if god were hungry or anything. Was he going to eat it?? Or was he trying to teach them and the future generations something which was to come? Again, the jews prove my point?
@ToddAllenGates You know if you love animals... That a loving god should love the animals. So what kind of loving person would ask an animal to be sacrificed?? Why the hell didn't god bless Cain and curse Abel?? He instead blessed the idiot. Logically Cain got angry.. Or should have had faith?? Was god trying to teach them something and he failed in the end?? Well i think cain failed because he had to think about what it meant... Gods ways weren't to exalted to contemplate for the boy.
> What would this video have said were you to throw them out?
Without the claims of omnipotence and omniscience--and omni-benevolence--I wouldn't have anywhere as much to complain about, at least from a storytelling perspective. Make God only partially powerful and partially wise--and give him a Split Personality--and the logic behind the stories improves considerably.
Is there a view of God that takes these passages into account (perhaps based on different understandings of the original language) that Christians might be better off ultimately adopting? Because all of the "omnis" seem to be easily reduced to absurdity. Is it possible that they were just exaggerating or that their conception of "omni" is not as we are able to conceive of it today?
It would make a lot more sense if God was just "really super" and "can see you anywhere." etc.
> Is there a view of God that takes these passages into account .. that Christians might be better off ultimately adopting?
As I see it, many of the stories were NOT written from the perspective that God has all the Omnis.
The problem with theists is that they have to adopt the stance that the bible is one coherent unit--but it makes much more sense when it's understood as it really is: a compilation by lots of different authors with lots of different opinions.
If you compare the Old Testament to other ancient texts like The Iliad and The Odyssey, it's quite obvious how poorly the OT is written.
It's very apparent how much editorializing has gone into it - like that story of Onan which is just a pointless tangent in the middle of the Joseph story to spout some lame sexual moral.
Though, there are a few compelling stories in there... but there's no question in my mind: The Odyssey > The Bible.
In my follow-up video to this one, called "Why the Bible is a better read from the secular perspective than the religious," I discuss why the Book of Job is great literature--but *only* when read from the secular perspective that it's two separate stories (and ONE story is great; the other, tripe.
> there's no question in my mind: The Odyssey > The Bible
Steve Urkel was a character on the TV show "Family Matters." Here's a copy & paste description of him from wikipedia:
'Steve was the epitome of a geek/nerd, with large, thick eyeglasses, "high-water" or "flooding" pants held up by suspenders, multi-colored cardigan sweaters, and a high-pitched voice.'
i just think, if you don't belive it, don't talk smack about it, you don't see me making videos about why evolution is a total load of crap, so why should any one else? if you want to try and talk someone into beliving your religion go ahead, but I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings... God bless
> if you don't belive it, don't talk smack about it,
I'm not "talking smack about it"—the main issue my videos present is "Are the claims of this religion true?"
And if a particular religious claim—be it from Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc.—really happens to have the authority of the Creator of the Universe, there are HUGE consequences for not following its rules!
Given the severity of this situation—and given that not ALL religions can be right—I think it's important to treat our choice of which religion to follow (if any) seriously. So it therefore makes sense to scrutinize these claims. If it came from God, I want to follow it 100%.
> you don't see me making videos about why evolution is a total load of crap,
Doubt and attempts to poke holes in scientific theories are a built-in part of science. Scientists are ALWAYS trying to disprove each other's theories. And when an idea withstands all attempts to prove it wrong, well, that's how we get reliable theories.
So if you have information on why evolution is total crap, scientists would welcome it. Just make sure you have solid evidence.
I personally *like* it when people make thought-provoking challenges to my beliefs. My last two videos were responses to the excellent Christian apologist Veritas48—his challenges to atheism are well presented, and they force me to hone my own position when responding.
> I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings...
But if I'm wrong, that shouldn't "smash your feelings." Shouldn't you just dismiss me as a hell-bound idiot?
You make it sound like you're professing a faith in something you don't totally believe in—but you'd rather not examine your own buried skepticism, because faith makes you happy.
"I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings... "
"talk crap" Todd is hardly talking crap. Besides, to dismiss his criticisms (or skepticism) as "talking crap" is hardly very nice is it? perhaps you're hurting his feelings? Or is the hurt feelings excuse only viable for when it comes to religion? :)
I'm not sure if you dislike this video because you think it's an ineffective approach to skepticism (and I acknowledge that it has its drawbacks: see my discussion in the comments section with WolfSyndrome), or if it's because you think books claimed to be inspired by Divinity (the Bible, Koran, Rig Veda, the Book of Mormon, etc.) shouldn't be questioned. Or maybe it's something else.
I stopped watching at 2:00 and am going to give this a low rating...but I will also give a detailed explanation of what is wrong. The introduction suggests the video will be about critiquing the Bible based on the strength of its storytelling elements, however, it then bases this criticism on the illogical religious interpretation of the text as opposed to the actual text itself. It would be like me criticizing Superman for being all-powerful regardless of the fact that his weakness is...
...kryptonite, but I overlooked that element because a fan fiction writer claims he is omnipotent and omniscient. The Bible is comprised of several books by several authors, and that's why my metaphor here is relevant.
> however, it then bases this criticism on the illogical religious interpretation of the text as opposed to the actual text itself.
True, but the only people who claim "the bible is the greatest story ever told" are those who read it from the religious perspective.
Regardless, the main point of this video is just the typical criticism that the Bible is unlikely to be authored by an Omnipotent Omniscient Wisdom. I just felt this approach was a way to make that criticism . . .
. . . from a slightly less typical angle: looking at the ways that God's "conflicts" are melodramatic, the way characters don't solve problems using maximum capacity, etc.
> the Bible is comprised of several books by several authors, and that's why my metaphor here is relevant.
Agreed: this is why my follow-up video (posted in response to this one) is called "Why the Bible is a better read from the secular perspective than the religious."
So, basically you thought you could demonstrate how unlikely the story is to be true by comparing it to fiction writing? That would be like someone telling you about their day, you responding to them saying, "I feel your story is untrue due to its lack of resolve"...and then they come back with, "but that's what happened..." See what I'm saying?
> That would be like someone telling you about their day, you responding to them saying, "I feel your story is untrue due to its lack of resolve"...and then they come back with, "but that's what happened..." See what I'm saying?
I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that in your example, this would be a very poor reason for disbelief: an absurd reason even.
But look at the examples I used—such as "there should be a good reason for the conflict." This invites a discussion on why an Omnipotent and Omniscient God would end up regretting (prior to the Flood) that He made man, when he could have used His Omnipotence to do a better job at creating, or at least consulted His Omniscience to know in advance that this would happen.
Or the example that characters shouldn't experience drama at the expense of realistic behavior. This invites discussions such as why the Israelites would ever do something as totally foolish as worship a golden calf when they had supposedly witnessed—first hand—God's power and fury.
Anyway, it's just what I hoped to be something of a fresh perspective (or you may call it a gimmick if you wish) . . .
. . . on a well-worn subject. Of my 92 videos on skepticism of organized religion, this is the only one that compares the Bible to fiction writing. I thought it was an interesting angle (and from other viewers' comment, many agree), but I acknowledge that it *does* invite misunderstandings. If I had to limit my case against organized religions to a single video, this would certainly NOT be the one!
Well thanks for discussing it with me. I liked the idea, just not how it was executed. I will check out your other videos and leave this one alone now. ;-)
I'd like to add that the Old Testament is repetitive, clumsy, incoherent, primitive, at times deeply disturbing, and, well, boooooooring. The new testament is a lot better, but it's basically a marketing scam, written so as to appeal to the masses.
The marketing of the New Testament is definitely superior to the Old Testament: it's *much* more accessible to just believe in Jesus than it is to have a Jewish mother.
People like this annoy me before you make these claims like comparing GOD to humans u need to read the whole bible and understand it and look at it with an open mind. God won't jus blink his eyes to defeat Satan he has left it up to his Son Yeshua Elohim (Jesus) and has foretold how it would be
But if God is omnipotent, He *could* just blink His eyes. So an omnipotent god "fighting" something is not compelling literature, because the outcome is so predictable.
And Satan would *know* fighting Omnipotence is hopeless—especially if he ever took the time to simply read the bible!
>God left it up to his Son Yeshua Elohim (Jesus)
So you believe that God & Jesus are separate entities?
But why? Why bother leaving it up to Jesus? If God is omnipotent, then it would require literally no effort to simply wipe out Satan altogether, or else stop him doing the bad stuff some other way. Surely that would be the best thing to do? There is no reason whatsoever for the whole drama thing with Jesus.
Yes, it's hard to believe that any "Holy Book" is God-inspired, but I believe that how the Bible still kept its same principles and content yet over 40 different writers in different continents in over 1500 years and fulfilled prophecy by itself to me is not mere coincidence but divine providence.
Thank you for your interest in the logical realm. You definitely did your research and I respect your opinion, have a good day and God Bless.
> the Bible still kept its same principles and content yet over 40 different writers in different continents in over 1500 years
I see inconsistencies within the stories of creation and the flood, and the concepts of the afterlife and salvation and the devil, etc. YouTuber ProfMTH has an excellent series on "Brief Bible Blunders."
> have a good day and God Bless
Likewise!
I hope I haven't came off as rude--I'm just giving honest feedback.
the trinity is a tricky concept to understand, but God through Jesus bore the punishment (death) of sins of humans, who God allowed to have freewill in hope of his creation having a relationship with him through Christ. The Bible's popularity as the most read, published, sold, etc. book of all time is because of its message and contains many great historical accuracies, sound new philosophies that hold to today, and figurative parables that display real world values.
From the secular perspective, it's easy to understand: the Bible has two conflicting storylines: many passages say Jesus is God's Son—two entirely separate entities—but monotheism demands that we interpret certain other vague passages as Jesus = God made flesh.
So to reconcile these clashing interpretations, the Church (at the Council of Nicaea) invented the Trinity.
So, actually it does a lot of good, people are less wicked and this story serves as at least a reminder of "actions have consequences". Jesus' death on the cross isn't meant to be tailor made for a good action movie or book, but history (which you discredit, I assume). His death is fulfillment of OT's death is punishment for sin hence the sacrificial offerings of animals for sin. Considering your analogy, it doesn't quite make sense because the driver would not be God, but humans' sin.
> Jesus' death is fulfillment of OT's death is punishment for sin hence the sacrificial offerings of animals for sin.
As something of a side point, making bloody sacrifices (animal or human) in the hopes of appeasing an Angry Divinity is not unique to Christianity: it's a *staple* of ancient religions worldwide. (I have a video on this called "5.3: God sacrifices Self to appease Self--barking mad?")
> Considering your analogy, it doesn't quite make sense because the driver would not be God, but humans' sin.
I think my analogy of humans being the ones playing in the street (doing something they're not supposed to) still holds. Humans are doing the disobedience, and God (the driver of the car) is the one doing the punishing (driving the car to hit the disobedient children / sending non-Christians to hell).
Also, God's rest on the 7th day is (I believe literal 7 days but that's a different discussion) evidence of biblical typology of the Jews' sabbath day. God created humans knowing that they would disappoint him, but his regret is evidence of his emotional attachment to his creation. Genesis 6:5 says basically that God knew every thought of man was continually evil. That is justifiable for punishment, and afterwards until this day I think you would agree that man's every thought is not evil.
> God created humans knowing that they would disappoint him
Parents can be disappointed with their children, but that's because we don't know exactly how they'll turn out. There's a gap between our expectations and reality.
But with omniscience and omnipotence on god's side, "disappointment" makes no sense. That's like me making a car with square wheels and being disappointed that it doesn't move well.
I think you have made some logical points and I appreciate you actually taking the time to read the bible completely and your courage to stand up and use reason to combat that which most accept blindly. That being said, I am a genuine Christian and believe that God can't be held to literary standards and that his divinity provides a unique protagonist vs. insufficient antagonist literary type, whereas hero vs villain types are quite cliche nowadays.
> I think you have made some logical points and I appreciate you actually taking the time to read the bible completely and your courage to stand up and use reason to combat that which most accept blindly.
> That being said, I am a genuine Christian and believe that God can't be held to literary standards
Well, if the Bible was really a historically accurate book, then I actually agree with you. There's no reason that history has to stand up to the standards of fiction.
The comparison to fiction was just a vehicle to discuss questions such as "What reason is there for an omnipotent god to experience conflict?" and "Why would Satan think he could defeat an omnipotent god?"
no no no no...there r no inconsistencies here nor any mistakes... HE needed the day rest was because it was heck of a SIX DAYS...u know.. much like working in the field toiling those land hoping to get green pastures for his creation..bla bla bla...u know...
again no no no no..u got it wrong...i meant the person who wrote that story...u know..HE sat up and wrote for SIX DAYS continuously....now tell me is that not tougher than toiling the field...
u know...u got to let ur imagination flows a bit when it comes to reading the bible..makes good bed time great stories..moreover..u got to give some respect to HIM.(now don't jump conclusion again here, i'm referring to the writer) :)
regardless all this, "The Bible has had more influence upon Western civilization then any other book" and is the basis of modern civilization.
VyckRo 3 weeks ago
@VyckRo
> "The Bible has had more influence upon Western civilization then any other book"
No doubt it's a well-known book. But what does it say of democracy? That comes more from the ancient Greeks. A representative government? That comes more from the ancient Romans.
No doubt the bible contains much wisdom too, but we pick & choose what we like. Would you consider it moral to stone a person for working on the Sabbath? (Num 15:32-36) For following a religion other than yours? (Deut 17:2-7)
ToddAllenGates 3 weeks ago
@ToddAllenGates
"But what does it say of democracy?"
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
"...democracy? That comes more from the ancient Greeks. A representative government? That comes more from the ancient Romans."
And we have more information about these civilizations, than we have about Egypt, because Christianity.
VyckRo 3 weeks ago
@VyckRo
> There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
That's about equality, but not about a democratic or representative government (which is why I think it's a stretch to say the bible is "the basis of modern civilization").
ToddAllenGates 3 weeks ago
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@ToddAllenGates
"But what does it say of democracy?"
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
"...democracy? That comes more from the ancient Greeks. A representative government? That comes more from the ancient Romans."
And we have more information about these civilizations, than we have about Egypt, because Christianity.
VyckRo 3 weeks ago
@ToddAllenGates
2 "Would you consider it moral to stone a person for working on the Sabbath? (Num 15:32-36) For following a religion other than yours? (Deut 17:2-7)"
The old story with the Old Testament...yap! that was then.
About the influence on the modern civilization I recently launched a challenge to a brother of yours - see my video "Message to Thunderf00t ( Let's see the Dr. Phil "Teue Colors" )" - the comments to this video came to be quite interesting.
VyckRo 3 weeks ago
@VyckRo
> The old story with the Old Testament...yap! that was then.
So the Ten Commandments -- no longer applicable because it's the Old Testament?
Is homosexuality being an abomination just an outdated Old Testament notion?
What about the ban on shellfish? Bestiality? Having one's bride stoned to death if she's not a virgin?
From a believer's point of view, how does one determine which parts of the Old Testament are still applicable and which no longer apply?
ToddAllenGates 3 weeks ago
@ToddAllenGates
"So the Ten Commandments -- no longer applicable because it's the Old Testament?"
-We are not under that law
Romans: 7:2-6
Acts 15:5-11
"So the Ten Commandments ..."
Matthew 22:37-40
The same questions that you put, have emerged in a video I did in 2010
"Exposing ZOMGitsCriss and her Ignorance! ( Is ZOMGitsCriss a bad person? ) 2/3"
The same atheist oratory in that video as in your comments!
VyckRo 2 weeks ago
@ToddAllenGates
"From a believer's point of view, how does one determine which parts of the Old Testament are still applicable and which no longer apply?"
1.
If the "believer" is protestant he will have a problem here, considering that in the Protestant world the same bible was interpreted in 30,000 different ways.
If the believer is Catholic, he will have a problem too, considering that infallible popes were even declare heretics, or ordered Crusade or genocides.
Cont...
VyckRo 2 weeks ago
@ToddAllenGates
"how does one determine which parts of the O. Testament"
2.
Cont... But when you only have 1 reference point such errors are common.
Jesus did not left behind him a "bible" or a "pope" but a church (Eclesia).
The Bible and biblical texts sprang from the Christian tradition, and it was the early church that decided what texts will go in the Bible.
So therefore we have three references:
Apostolic Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
The Church (1 Timothy 3:14-15)
The Bible
VyckRo 2 weeks ago
Bible bashing on the slick,
dubdat4181 2 months ago
the bible, not the greatest story told? Dude, your right! So why are you posting this wack video, with ya fussy azz voice. The bible is god talking you bulldozier for brains, find a Steven king novel to discuss and stop.your disrespect,.before lightning strike your azz, clown! You trifling osver something.as perferct, and thats real and you want plY with it like its something compare to.bullshit fiction, .. sky kill yaself!!!
dubdat4181 2 months ago
@dubdat4181
> The bible is god talking ...You trifling osver something.as perferct, and thats real
You TOTALLY missed the point of this video. The numerous weak points in the bible in the areas of fact (its ignorance about dinosaurs, the earth's orbit around the sun, etc.) and storytelling (ex: a "battle" between an Omnipotent god and an non-omnipotent devil is weak melodrama) is evidence the bible is NOT "god" talking, but simply the tales of Bronze Age goat-herder storytellers.
ToddAllenGates 2 months ago
Being a medievalist, I deal almost entirely with christian compositions. Being an atheist, I of course do not believe any of them. However, I respect the bible for its role in shaping western civilization (both positive and negative), and find it fascinating from a historical standpoint. Though a poor example of literature (and often lacking in logic), the bible reveals a great deal about the those who composed it, and the values of people 2-3000 years ago.
resurgam44 3 months ago
@resurgam44
> the bible reveals a great deal about the those who composed it, and the values of people 2-3000 years ago
Yes, agreed.
ToddAllenGates 3 months ago
Frazer wasn't bigger and Stronger. It was Foreman :) No biggie, though.
rastarigate 6 months ago
@rastarigate
> Frazer wasn't bigger and Stronger. It was Foreman
Yes, you're right. I just annotated a correction (and credited you--see 2:17-2:30).
ToddAllenGates 5 months ago
the god of the bible cannot be omipotent, he must be mutlipotent if he claims a place in reality.
GalliadII 9 months ago
Simply jealous, By the way a goat ate a whole chapter of the qur`an and it was lost forever
FeignofCordor 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Duh! The greatest story ever told was Gremlins 2.
Seekarr 11 months ago
@ElProximo
> Your hero gets a beat down, resurrects and goes away?
But according to Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32 (etc.), Christ will return very soon!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ElProximo
> hope you didn't delude yourself into believe I was asking you to avoid theology because it was 'hurting my feelings' lol
No, just saying who my target audience is.
> My theology...often brings me to places of agonizing contemplation, soul-searching, wrestling those big ideas
Doesn't the bible answer all your questions?
> it was pretty bad
Can you name any skeptics who make a *good* case for doubt? Are there any good reasons for skepticism?
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ElProximo
> The Cross and resurrection to 'love one another' would have earned 'epic fail!'
These themes can be found in other religions as well, and they're no surprise from the secular perspective. I discuss these in other videos: "God sacrifices Self to appease Self (the cross),"The Evolution of the Afterlife" (resurrection), and "How the naturalistic explanation provides a fairly sturdy foundation for morality" (re: 'love one another').
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ElProximo
1 of 2:
> I do appreciate this reply.
I appreciate your comment as well!
> you are making a good case for the Bible being factual and not fictional.
I don't see how pointing out that things like the bloody Armageddon battle is more melodrama than drama (since an Omnipotent God could solve everything with the metaphorical blink of an eye) makes the bible "more" convincing.
> But nice job of literary criticism
Thanks!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
2 of 2:
Anyway, if your theology brings you joy, I have zero reason to try to make you change your mind. I don't make my videos to try to deconvert people. They're mainly for people who are already skeptics but who have trouble responding to pressure from proselytizers, or for believers who are tortured by doubt, cognitive dissonance (from the Problem of Suffering, Genesis vs. science, etc.), or irrational fears of hell.
But since you're happy with your faith, I'll just shut my big mouth!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ElProximo
> you have done a great job showing it is unlikely this is a purely fictional story.
My angle was not "fiction" vs. "fact" ... as an atheist, I see the Bible as a mix of history, legend, folklore, morality tales, etc.
My point for addressing aspects like "Satan" being unrealistically idiotic enough to oppose Omnipotence is that much of the bible is more "bad fiction" than "good fiction."
> Did not appreciate the theology
You probably won't appreciate this reply either!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
He's on a high while trying to hit us, and just sobered up, and now trying to save us P: hurp durp
HomoCyborgZombie 1 year ago
thanks todd , your words are easy to understand and your thoughts complex. if I had half your brain Id be more dangerous than i already am.thanks again keep em coming.
chickinstompin 1 year ago
@chickinstompin
> your words are easy to understand and your thoughts complex.
A great compliment--thank you!!
> keep em coming
More in the works!
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
What would your thoughts be on Yahweh being his own crucible? As in He's a slave to his own nature. Like the Scorpion in the scorpion and the frog parable. The keeper of mysteries, the ultimate power.. Who knows what a being like that would actually translate to in reality/literature. It's hard to be objective about it because we always want to be idealists when it comes to a god of perfection.
PhatLarkin 1 year ago
@PhatLarkin
> What would your thoughts be on Yahweh being his own crucible? As in He's a slave to his own nature
It seems to me that an Omniscient & Omnipotent Being could tap into those resources to solve his problems.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
If jesus is god, then his death was not only unnecessary but pretty dishonest.
GallusSapien 1 year ago
@GallusSapien
> If jesus is god, then his death was not only unnecessary but pretty dishonest.
At the very least, it makes god something of a drama queen!
ToddGates 1 year ago
another homosexual attacking the bible so that they may seek the shit of another mans ass.ALL atheists are homosexuals to attack church/ bible if not by small chance then merely brainwashed by homo people as humans easily gullible to anything until Time to see
suleimanazar 1 year ago
@suleimanazar Lol
thisfreakingname 1 year ago
i dont believe the intention of bible was written in order to merely entertain us. Unlike the escapism you experience when you read a novel, the bible cannot be put down and walked away from. Its not only only a historical recount of humanity, it also answers questions of our existence.
masterexploderKnoppe 1 year ago
@masterexploderKnoppe
1 of 4:
> i dont believe the intention of bible was written in order to merely entertain us.
I agree. It's just that when I started reading books on how to write good realistic fiction, it made me think about the bible and all the ways it falls into the "bad fiction" category:
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
2 of 4:
(1) There's no compelling reason for the main protagonist (God) to experience conflict
(2) Satan is a two-dimensional bad guy
(3) The Bible's characters do not operate at maximum capacity: instead of solving their problems as cleverly and efficiently as they can, they behave unrealistically for the sake of forced (unnecessary) conflict/drama.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
3 of 4:
> Its not only a historical recount of humanity, it also answers questions of our existence.
Christians believe so, but Muslims tell us the book that does this is the Koran, Hindus tell us it's the Rig Veda, the Mormons tell us it's the Book of Mormon, the Zoroastrians say it's the Avesta, etc.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
4 of 4:
For those willing to analyze these texts critically, I feel the most logical conclusion is that ALL these books were created solely by ancient people who told stories about "questions of our existence": stories about how Creation came about, stories to explain suffering, stories of what happens after we die, etc.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
What kind of horse shit is this???? The bible being a story book??? Try the phonebook on this subject of being the greatest fictional literature.. Nobody was trying to make you a fan. They've passed on their relationship with god and that doesn't need all those exciting elements you wish for.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
1 of 3:
> They've passed on their relationship with god and that doesn't need all those exciting elements you wish for
The point of this video is not that the Bible lacks exciting elements—for I feel the Bible *does* include exciting elements. The problem is that its stories include many of the typical weaknesses of poor fiction writing, such as characters going through drama/conflict at the expense of realistic behavior.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
2 of 3:
An example of this in a cheap horror movie is when a woman does something as idiotic as investigate a creepy sound from the attic alone holding only a candle (and dressed in a skimpy nightgown). Drama, yes, but at the expense of how people really behave.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
3 of 3:
An example of this in the Bible is when the Israelites idiotically worship a golden calf right after they had supposedly witnessed—first hand—God's power and fury. Drama, yes (as God orders the blood-splattering of 3,000 as "brother, friend, and neighbor" are sliced by the sword--Exodus 32:27-28), but it's drama at the expense of how people really behave.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
well you give the example of the golden calf.. Let me show you it really happened and where it happened. /watch?v=K-eSRcr9CWw
chriss179 1 year ago
Then you scoff at the killing of 3000 rebels. Well let me tell you that when you are being led over the bottom of the sea, having seen 10 plagues on egypt and people create a golden calf that you will kill them for this treachery. Trying to lure the people into rebellion. I believe thats what you did in the civil war didn't you kill eachother?? Those who wanted to be part of england against those who wanted to have the promised land for themselves??
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> Then you scoff at the killing of 3000 rebels.
It's not that I scoff at the killing. What I find to be unrealistic is that this story has it that thousands of Israelites saw God inflict the plagues and PART THE SEA yet were *still* foolish enough to defy such an angry and violent god. If I saw first-hand evidence like that I would become a hardcore believer. No need for "faith": the evidence would be undeniable.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates This is what the theory of evolution does to people. It makes them think that faith means to believe without seeing. Do you have a wife???? Have you been faithfull to her??? Was that because you knew she existed or because your sexlife was in/out shape? So you went thru the desert and cheated her??? Ahh you had a been hungry for that long and kept faithful??
You know the word faith is not the same as believe.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> It makes them think that faith means to believe without seeing.
It's a practical aspect of life that we all, to some extent, have "faith" (trust in authority) in others - like the "faith" I have in the weatherman's forecast. But secular "faith" is always tentative, and disappears at signs of contradictory evidence. But religious faith stays solid despite contradictory evidence (e.g. those who interpret Genesis literally).
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
Well in the bible EVERYONE who failed in faith were people who have seen MANY miracles.. King david for example.. He was a prophet for gods sake.. He killed another man for his wife. Is that faith?? or simply cheating god and thinking you can get away with it??
chriss179 1 year ago
Would you just give everyone who stays at your side 72 virgins and give them all kinds of sexual, sensual and carnal pleasures like allah does?? So that'll keep heaven from emptying?? So you would create a brothel to keep up with satan?? As any being with morality, dignity and humanity would choose to serve him instead? Really tell me i'm waiting in anxiety to what you would have done.
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates
Isaiah 45 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' " All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.
So can you give me an answer which is comparable to that of god? Just.. Considering the holy angel would stick to your side?
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates You can tell me all you want. But england would have slaughtered any opposition had you not won the war. And that would have been far more then 3000 people... Brothers who lived together and greeted eachother every day as brothers.. For the sake of who is king and who is not.
chriss179 1 year ago
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chriss179 1 year ago
I mean daily?? In every hotel room?? Best seller of all time.. In all languages on the face of the earth... Really tell me what book would you compare to the bible. Still the best seller. Playboy magazine??? Really people in prison do read the bible BECAUSE it's interesting and exciting. Even if they tear it apart to smoke their cigarettes with the paper.
chriss179 1 year ago
YOu say in the movie there was a cause for christ dying, superman bla.. Can you open genesis 22 and read it?? Abraham had to sacrifice his son. And god stopped him and he then gave the sacrifice which abraham could offer.. To whom did god sacrifice this lamb??? To another god?? or to himself?? Now god sacrificed to himself right??? He provided a lamb - from heaven - and sacrificed it to HIMSELF. Can you explain to me why god ordered abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place??
chriss179 1 year ago
DId he want to tell abraham that it's good to sacrifice ones child?? He stated in the law that it's the greatest defilement and abomination that people sacrifice their children to demons. What was god trying to get across to abraham? Or did he try to tell him that what he was about to do is what god planned to do all along?? Sacrifice his own son?? Now you scoff at this.. But certainly most of the jews have rejected jesus. So there is something miraculous in this. That the story is authentic.
chriss179 1 year ago
In fact the jews prove to us the authenticity of the story. And the connection thus between abraham sacrificing his son symbolically and his god sacrificing his son LITTERALY is proven to be authentic by a people that never accepted jesus as their messiah.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> god sacrificing his son LITTERALY
I'm drifting to a new topic now, but what's fascinating about Christianity is that unlike all the thousands of other ancient mythologies that believed in blood sacrifices to appease an angry god (the Greeks, Chinese, Aztecs, etc.), Christianity has it that b/c Jesus = God's son AND God Himself ... God arranges for Himself to be tortured so He can forgive sin.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
Ahh this is a nice response. YOu said god had no worthy adversary. Lets say god has to be just because his angels have more responsibilities and humanity then him. He would have just destroyed satan and be done with it. They loved their brother.. And called it injust and satan would be the moral victor. After all what did he do wrong. All he wished for was adam and eve to receive the knowledge of right and wrong.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> YOu said god had no worthy adversary.
If God is omnipotent, how could any adversary be worthy? If one side is omnipotent, the other side has no chance.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
If the other side has no chance then you can tell me EASILLY what you would have done if you were god right??? Then let the world know how foolish our faith is by giving the answer. Finally don't use omnipotent as an excuse not to answer me.
chriss179 1 year ago
So lets pretend god had destroyed both adam, eve and satan.. All the angels would be disgusted of such a tyrant... Assuming they would be holier then their god. They would all choose to worship satan as their new god and god would destroy all life. So satan would prank him in his last breath. Don't tell your next creation what you did to your last because they too would worship me.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> lets pretend god had destroyed both adam, eve and satan..
An omniscient and benign Creator would have enough control over things--and predictive powers--not to let things get so out of hand.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
First of all the bible tells us that god knew all that has happened and all which will happen in all the future because he lives outside of the dimension of time. So god knows eternity until undetermined time. So indeed.. He couldn't have been caught offguard. But your avoiding my question.
chriss179 1 year ago
So exactly tell me what does omnipotence and omnipresence mean when your in the situation that you have to be fair and you don't want to harsh, but justice calls for exactly this? Or what could he have done?? Just destroy satan in the time of noah and reveal to murderers that he is god and mankind was not as bad as them??? So just be immoral again??
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> So exactly tell me what does omnipotence and omnipresence mean when your in the situation that you have to be fair and you don't want to harsh, but justice calls for exactly this?
An omniscient omnipotent Creator wouldn't get caught in a bind.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
You know what... YOur right here and this is so easy to see for someone as small as a mortal. But consider this. The bible tells about satan that he grew proud. And the snake was the wisest of all the creatures. The snake is satan right? So he was wiser then all the other angels. He did not keep his wisdom but it led him to his fall is what the bible teaches us. Is this uncommon behaviour? To think you are tougher then you really are? You've never seen this in real life? Would he really do that?
chriss179 1 year ago
Did you know that the bible tells us that in the days of noah all the angels fell?? gen 6:2. So god loses his entire creation again because his angels have more humanity then him. And satan can tell god from inside hell: Well you better never tell any new creation what you did to the last, you tyrant/ and he'd be worshipped as the bringer of light to gods creation??
chriss179 1 year ago
You know god is a god... But you seem to forget that he does have servants who are like god themselves. Now if you don't know what god is about and you think well he is the king and decides the rules.. You do not understand that angels really MUST disobey god if he is a tyrant if they are god like themselves. So they MUST worship satan if god cannot give a good respons..
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> You know god is a god... But you seem to forget that he does have servants who are like god themselves.
As an atheist, no, I don't think like that. I see insufficient evidence to conclude in a Creator, let alone a Creator that has servants.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
Look you don't have to believe in the god of the bible to be able to answer my simple question as to what you would have done. I already knew what you believed when watching your movie so please answer the question and don't try to make me believe wether you believe or not because that is irrelevant to the question nor to me.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
1 of 5:
> And can you tell me: IF god took upon himself the responsiblity of the sins of his children. and the law dictates that the sinner must die. Then who has to die according to the law??? . . . you can tell me EASILLY what you would have done if you were god right? . . . you don't have to believe in the god of the bible to be able to answer my simple question
Well, I suppose if were God—the One who sets the Law—I wouldn't made the Law that the sinner must die.-
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
2 of 5:
I might do something like make the Law that sinners take some constructive corrective action: for example, the thief must compensate the victim + do an amount of community service proportionate to the crime against the community.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
3 of 5:
What I don't think I'd do is create humans in a way that made them so susceptible to sin that 100% of them would fail and be worthy of hell . . . and then create the escape hatch of visiting earth in human form and arranging for myself to be tortured to death so that everyone who believed I died for them could go to heaven.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
4 of 5:
But Chriss179, given that you believe you have had dreams from God means your belief does not rest on the bible alone—your faith involves direct contact. And with that kind of experience, I can see how you believe that the bible is 100% true NO MATTER WHAT. I can see why you believe that if ideas & passages seem strange to us, that's our failing, not the bible's.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
5 of 5:
So given that we're coming from completely different perspectives—and unless I have some similarly spiritual visitation, we're coming from *irreconcilable* perspectives—I don't think we're accomplishing much here, other than wasting each other's time. But I thank you for your feedback thus far, and offer my advance apologies should I fail to get back to you.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
1 John 4 Test the Spirits 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
No, having visions and dreams and talking to angels does not guarantee you they'r from god.
chriss179 1 year ago
In fact if you know islam. Muhammad really had visions and revelations. Yes, a demon gave him all those visions and revelations. In fact it's biblical that demons do this. For example the witch of endor summoned the soul of samuel the propet. WHich was not samuel but satan. He disguises himself as an angel of light.
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates You mean to say you are against jails?? Do you live in a lala land or something?? YOu really think that all that is wrong is a little correction has to be done??? Really god is injust to pay the ransom for those who want to be cleansed/corrected of their sin and to condemn those who do not want to be corrected/cleansed? So he would have to correct them all?? Forced correction, no more prison?
chriss179 1 year ago
Really i thought that carrying a cross with christ, having to pray for those who hate and persecute you. Having to live out life until death takes you into his glory is enough correction. But you seem to think that there is this greater kind of correction you could have performed. So tell me how you would correct the incorrectable??? By hellfire??
chriss179 1 year ago
You know i think it's actually quite strange that you would bring up this argument community service and treatment.
Matthew 3 7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
...
10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates Really you think you have a good point in saying the unrepentant should do community service. You mean to say those who refuse to be helped and treated should be called gods children and the insurance should pay for them too, just like the children that do get treatment. That do community service..
chriss179 1 year ago
Normally you would say: Well we'll see after death. I won't repent unless god reveals himself to me.
John 3 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
I will not receive treatment/de community service (have faith) unless god reveals himself.
But god should not throw them in prison??
chriss179 1 year ago
You see, the law the sinner must die is good and 100% perfect, holy and already encompasses everything. BECAUSE god was never caught offguard. AND he will never forsake those who love him. And don't you dare say one can love god AND injustice! Thats the same as saying: I love my wife and cheating her.
chriss179 1 year ago
So what response would YOU give if you were god... Knowing your angels MUST rebell against you if your answer is unholy. Your the one asking us the would he really do that question, so you answer it. What would you do.. ANd i'll tell you WHY the angels would all rebell and satan receives the kingdom and the glory.
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates YOu say "God arranges for Himself to be tortured so He can forgive sin". I say: God payed a ransom in blood to have a moral basis to free mankind from their sins.Because if i were an angel and saw god EITHER forgive or condemn people without any moral basis i would surely rebell. Satan would be the moral victor. So you tell me, what would YOU do if you were god... Just forgive everybody?? But they started off perfect in the first place. Why wouldn't it all repeat itself?
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> I say: God payed a ransom in blood to have a moral basis to free mankind from their sins.
I don't see how killing an innocent party makes up for sins of guilty. If judge finds a man guilty, and the judge then tortures his own son to pay the penalty for the guilty man's sons, that doesn't seem "just." And if the judge tortures "Himself" to make up for the man's sins, well, that seems nonsensical.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
YOu don't see how the blood ransom could be put on a subsitute? So if you dent a car your insurance cannot pay for the damage?? You must bleed every penny.. Well could you please dent my car??? Insurance is unfair anyway.
Your gonna scoff at the insurance analogy??? Well let me take an example that would work for the insurance company.
chriss179 1 year ago
Imagine your child, 6 years old is mentally disturbed by something. Lets say his mother died.. He has lots of troubles in school and one day he decides to vandalise a graveyard. The damage being 10.000 dollar. Did you know that if you get psychological help for the child that an insurance might pay for the damage. Assuming the parent had no idea his child was this mentally disturbed until this moment. THis kind of insurance will DEMAND the child be helped by a shrink. and the insurance pays!
chriss179 1 year ago
You would call that unfair. But that is really not for you to decide. Thats a matter between the insurance company and the father who has to pay for the damage. In our case... We are the child of god. And god has to pay the price for our mistakes. And he will demand back every penny. Unless jesus pays our debts. The insurance... THats why god crushed his son. Unfair??? Thats not your business then.. Thats between the father and the insurance company..
chriss179 1 year ago
You know, the analogy of the child vandalising a graveyard is perfect. I've know someone what was in that very situation and i once had a dream which i think was from god, comparing his sacrifice to that very situation. Yes, because it fits PERFECTLY! In christ we receive the treatment a child has to receive in order for the insurance to agree upon paying the debt. If you have faith you follow and do what is taught (the treatment). Then you are accepted as a child which makes god responsible.
chriss179 1 year ago
Really if god tells his creation that a sinner is his child, then what are his victims going to say? Ahh well you destroyed my fathers grave.. Ahh well your gods child, i'll remember that when i visit my fathers grave and look upon it's desecration? Ofcourse not! I don't give a fuck wether you call him your child or not! Still his grave is desecrated and the price is not met! The price for sin is death. So EVEN THO god calls you his child the law has to be met. Thats where jesus stepped in.
chriss179 1 year ago
And can you tell me: IF god took upon himself the responsiblity of the sins of his children. and the law dictates that the sinner must die. Then who has to die according to the law???
Exactly. Thats what happened 2000 years ago!
chriss179 1 year ago
You know it's quite dumb that you actually think you have a point saying god had no worthy opponent. First of all he didn't ignite the war. The unworthy opponent did. GOd never intended to fight. Tho it's not like he was caught offguard, but still explain to me how you would solve the problem the devil created and i'll answer you why satan would have gotten the glory and you'd be his slave for eternity.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> it's quite dumb that you actually think you have a point saying god had no worthy opponent.
If God is the only omnipotent Being around, who could be a worthy opponent?
> First of all he didn't ignite the war.
He didn't know it would happen?
> it's not like he was caught offguard
Ahh, so He *did* know. And as the Creator of all, He must have even planned it.
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
Your telling me that if your father has no safe in his house and does not put anything behind locks and lets you have all of his authority to use what is his that it would be his fault if you took the gun and killed your brother?? After all he laid it all out for you.. No, he even INTENDED for you to do it... Well if you tell this to a judge consider that you'll never see freedom agan.
chriss179 1 year ago
Would you have done the cow trick, like with nebukadnessar?? He became stupid like a cow and ate grass for 7 years. Because like the computer receiving electricity from the wall plug, we all receive intellectual thought from god. So you would simply have made satan dumb as a cow. That way you could keep heaven from emptying? That way satan would be the moral victor and receive the worship and all moral life would live with him in his cowyness.
chriss179 1 year ago
Really i'm betting that you'll evade my question only because there is no answer then the one god provided to us. if you do have an alternative answer you'll show just how foolish satan was and all the angels that fell with him thus proving the bible to be the book of anohter crappy false religion after all.
chriss179 1 year ago
@chriss179
> Really i'm betting that you'll evade my question
If you want to claim victory, I don't mind. I don't think our exchanges are really accomplishing anything. My videos are not really aimed at believers--they're more for people who are already struggling with doubt and cognitive dissonance, or for skeptics looking for alternative approaches.
If you're happy with your faith, I wouldn't want to take it away from you even if I could (and I know I can't).
ToddAllenGates 1 year ago
Ofcourse you can't take my faith. It was my intention to discharge all your arguments because to me they are silly and uneducated. You don't have to believe the bible to know this fact. As if believing in the judge means you can then understand moral from immoral or right from wrong. WRONG! Everybody can.. You don't need a judge to see if the law is just or injust.
chriss179 1 year ago
also look at the story of kain and abel. In human eyes this is a ridiculous story. Abel sacrificed living animals to god and kain sacrificed green herbs to god. Why would a loving god bless the one who kills?? Can you explain this to me?? Isn't such a horrible thing to do??? To sacrifice a living animal. As if god were hungry or anything. Was he going to eat it?? Or was he trying to teach them and the future generations something which was to come? Again, the jews prove my point?
chriss179 1 year ago
@ToddAllenGates You know if you love animals... That a loving god should love the animals. So what kind of loving person would ask an animal to be sacrificed?? Why the hell didn't god bless Cain and curse Abel?? He instead blessed the idiot. Logically Cain got angry.. Or should have had faith?? Was god trying to teach them something and he failed in the end?? Well i think cain failed because he had to think about what it meant... Gods ways weren't to exalted to contemplate for the boy.
chriss179 1 year ago
bible! horrible fanfiction!
Sutorenja 1 year ago
For some reason your likeness reminds me of David Cross, sans-glasses.
..oh, and interesting book review ;)
sciencemile 2 years ago
> For some reason your likeness reminds me of David Cross
We go to the same barber.
> interesting book review
Thanks!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
It's amazing how many different ways one can reduce the claim of omnipotence and omniscience to absurdity. This leads me to wonder two things:
(1) What would this video have said were you to throw them out?
(2) What is the history or basis for them constantly being included? i.e. is it Biblical, etc.?
klalkity 2 years ago
1 of 2:
> What would this video have said were you to throw them out?
Without the claims of omnipotence and omniscience--and omni-benevolence--I wouldn't have anywhere as much to complain about, at least from a storytelling perspective. Make God only partially powerful and partially wise--and give him a Split Personality--and the logic behind the stories improves considerably.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
> What is the history or basis for them constantly being included?
Revelation 19:6: For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
As for omniscience, there are lots of passages that at least suggest it: Psalm 139:12, Psalm 44:21, Hebrews 4:13, etc.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Is there a view of God that takes these passages into account (perhaps based on different understandings of the original language) that Christians might be better off ultimately adopting? Because all of the "omnis" seem to be easily reduced to absurdity. Is it possible that they were just exaggerating or that their conception of "omni" is not as we are able to conceive of it today?
It would make a lot more sense if God was just "really super" and "can see you anywhere." etc.
klalkity 2 years ago
> Is there a view of God that takes these passages into account .. that Christians might be better off ultimately adopting?
As I see it, many of the stories were NOT written from the perspective that God has all the Omnis.
The problem with theists is that they have to adopt the stance that the bible is one coherent unit--but it makes much more sense when it's understood as it really is: a compilation by lots of different authors with lots of different opinions.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Really liked this video.
If you compare the Old Testament to other ancient texts like The Iliad and The Odyssey, it's quite obvious how poorly the OT is written.
It's very apparent how much editorializing has gone into it - like that story of Onan which is just a pointless tangent in the middle of the Joseph story to spout some lame sexual moral.
Though, there are a few compelling stories in there... but there's no question in my mind: The Odyssey > The Bible.
antybu86 2 years ago
> Really liked this video.
Thank you!
> there are a few compelling stories in there
In my follow-up video to this one, called "Why the Bible is a better read from the secular perspective than the religious," I discuss why the Book of Job is great literature--but *only* when read from the secular perspective that it's two separate stories (and ONE story is great; the other, tripe.
> there's no question in my mind: The Odyssey > The Bible
Agreed!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
IDE/THEORY: The story would have been much better if god had been schizophrenic.
virulentRant 2 years ago
> The story would have been much better if god had been schizophrenic.
Yes - it would require much less use of double-think on the part of the reader.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
I'm not sure who Urkel (spelling?) is but he DOES sound like a wimp :)
RPFS2008 2 years ago
Steve Urkel was a character on the TV show "Family Matters." Here's a copy & paste description of him from wikipedia:
'Steve was the epitome of a geek/nerd, with large, thick eyeglasses, "high-water" or "flooding" pants held up by suspenders, multi-colored cardigan sweaters, and a high-pitched voice.'
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
i just think, if you don't belive it, don't talk smack about it, you don't see me making videos about why evolution is a total load of crap, so why should any one else? if you want to try and talk someone into beliving your religion go ahead, but I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings... God bless
olddudeification 2 years ago
1 of 5:
> if you don't belive it, don't talk smack about it,
I'm not "talking smack about it"—the main issue my videos present is "Are the claims of this religion true?"
And if a particular religious claim—be it from Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc.—really happens to have the authority of the Creator of the Universe, there are HUGE consequences for not following its rules!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 5:
Given the severity of this situation—and given that not ALL religions can be right—I think it's important to treat our choice of which religion to follow (if any) seriously. So it therefore makes sense to scrutinize these claims. If it came from God, I want to follow it 100%.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
3 of 5:
> you don't see me making videos about why evolution is a total load of crap,
Doubt and attempts to poke holes in scientific theories are a built-in part of science. Scientists are ALWAYS trying to disprove each other's theories. And when an idea withstands all attempts to prove it wrong, well, that's how we get reliable theories.
So if you have information on why evolution is total crap, scientists would welcome it. Just make sure you have solid evidence.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
4 of 5:
I personally *like* it when people make thought-provoking challenges to my beliefs. My last two videos were responses to the excellent Christian apologist Veritas48—his challenges to atheism are well presented, and they force me to hone my own position when responding.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
5 of 5:
> I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings...
But if I'm wrong, that shouldn't "smash your feelings." Shouldn't you just dismiss me as a hell-bound idiot?
You make it sound like you're professing a faith in something you don't totally believe in—but you'd rather not examine your own buried skepticism, because faith makes you happy.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
"I just don't like it when people go and talk crap about things people really love and belive and totally smash their feelings... "
"talk crap" Todd is hardly talking crap. Besides, to dismiss his criticisms (or skepticism) as "talking crap" is hardly very nice is it? perhaps you're hurting his feelings? Or is the hurt feelings excuse only viable for when it comes to religion? :)
RPFS2008 2 years ago
not cool dude :(
olddudeification 2 years ago
> not cool dude :(
I'm not sure if you dislike this video because you think it's an ineffective approach to skepticism (and I acknowledge that it has its drawbacks: see my discussion in the comments section with WolfSyndrome), or if it's because you think books claimed to be inspired by Divinity (the Bible, Koran, Rig Veda, the Book of Mormon, etc.) shouldn't be questioned. Or maybe it's something else.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
I stopped watching at 2:00 and am going to give this a low rating...but I will also give a detailed explanation of what is wrong. The introduction suggests the video will be about critiquing the Bible based on the strength of its storytelling elements, however, it then bases this criticism on the illogical religious interpretation of the text as opposed to the actual text itself. It would be like me criticizing Superman for being all-powerful regardless of the fact that his weakness is...
WolfSyndrome 2 years ago
@WolfSyndrome
...kryptonite, but I overlooked that element because a fan fiction writer claims he is omnipotent and omniscient. The Bible is comprised of several books by several authors, and that's why my metaphor here is relevant.
WolfSyndrome 2 years ago
1 of 2:
> however, it then bases this criticism on the illogical religious interpretation of the text as opposed to the actual text itself.
True, but the only people who claim "the bible is the greatest story ever told" are those who read it from the religious perspective.
Regardless, the main point of this video is just the typical criticism that the Bible is unlikely to be authored by an Omnipotent Omniscient Wisdom. I just felt this approach was a way to make that criticism . . .
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 2:
. . . from a slightly less typical angle: looking at the ways that God's "conflicts" are melodramatic, the way characters don't solve problems using maximum capacity, etc.
> the Bible is comprised of several books by several authors, and that's why my metaphor here is relevant.
Agreed: this is why my follow-up video (posted in response to this one) is called "Why the Bible is a better read from the secular perspective than the religious."
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
So, basically you thought you could demonstrate how unlikely the story is to be true by comparing it to fiction writing? That would be like someone telling you about their day, you responding to them saying, "I feel your story is untrue due to its lack of resolve"...and then they come back with, "but that's what happened..." See what I'm saying?
WolfSyndrome 2 years ago
1 of 4:
> That would be like someone telling you about their day, you responding to them saying, "I feel your story is untrue due to its lack of resolve"...and then they come back with, "but that's what happened..." See what I'm saying?
I do understand what you're saying, and I agree that in your example, this would be a very poor reason for disbelief: an absurd reason even.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 4:
But look at the examples I used—such as "there should be a good reason for the conflict." This invites a discussion on why an Omnipotent and Omniscient God would end up regretting (prior to the Flood) that He made man, when he could have used His Omnipotence to do a better job at creating, or at least consulted His Omniscience to know in advance that this would happen.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
3 of 4:
Or the example that characters shouldn't experience drama at the expense of realistic behavior. This invites discussions such as why the Israelites would ever do something as totally foolish as worship a golden calf when they had supposedly witnessed—first hand—God's power and fury.
Anyway, it's just what I hoped to be something of a fresh perspective (or you may call it a gimmick if you wish) . . .
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
4 of 4:
. . . on a well-worn subject. Of my 92 videos on skepticism of organized religion, this is the only one that compares the Bible to fiction writing. I thought it was an interesting angle (and from other viewers' comment, many agree), but I acknowledge that it *does* invite misunderstandings. If I had to limit my case against organized religions to a single video, this would certainly NOT be the one!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Well thanks for discussing it with me. I liked the idea, just not how it was executed. I will check out your other videos and leave this one alone now. ;-)
- Ax
WolfSyndrome 2 years ago
8:08 its like 'oh me, i fk'ed up' XD
morthim 2 years ago
I absolutely love the pov of this critical analysis!!!
Elaina43 2 years ago
> I absolutely love the pov of this critical analysis!!!
Thanks Elaina43--good to hear from you!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
I'd like to add that the Old Testament is repetitive, clumsy, incoherent, primitive, at times deeply disturbing, and, well, boooooooring. The new testament is a lot better, but it's basically a marketing scam, written so as to appeal to the masses.
henripche 2 years ago
> written so as to appeal to the masses
The marketing of the New Testament is definitely superior to the Old Testament: it's *much* more accessible to just believe in Jesus than it is to have a Jewish mother.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
People like this annoy me before you make these claims like comparing GOD to humans u need to read the whole bible and understand it and look at it with an open mind. God won't jus blink his eyes to defeat Satan he has left it up to his Son Yeshua Elohim (Jesus) and has foretold how it would be
Theoswift 2 years ago
>God won't jus blink his eyes to defeat Satan
But if God is omnipotent, He *could* just blink His eyes. So an omnipotent god "fighting" something is not compelling literature, because the outcome is so predictable.
And Satan would *know* fighting Omnipotence is hopeless—especially if he ever took the time to simply read the bible!
>God left it up to his Son Yeshua Elohim (Jesus)
So you believe that God & Jesus are separate entities?
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
@Theoswift:
But why? Why bother leaving it up to Jesus? If God is omnipotent, then it would require literally no effort to simply wipe out Satan altogether, or else stop him doing the bad stuff some other way. Surely that would be the best thing to do? There is no reason whatsoever for the whole drama thing with Jesus.
nashertheatheist 2 years ago
Yes, it's hard to believe that any "Holy Book" is God-inspired, but I believe that how the Bible still kept its same principles and content yet over 40 different writers in different continents in over 1500 years and fulfilled prophecy by itself to me is not mere coincidence but divine providence.
Thank you for your interest in the logical realm. You definitely did your research and I respect your opinion, have a good day and God Bless.
zacsmusic17 2 years ago
> the Bible still kept its same principles and content yet over 40 different writers in different continents in over 1500 years
I see inconsistencies within the stories of creation and the flood, and the concepts of the afterlife and salvation and the devil, etc. YouTuber ProfMTH has an excellent series on "Brief Bible Blunders."
> have a good day and God Bless
Likewise!
I hope I haven't came off as rude--I'm just giving honest feedback.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
the trinity is a tricky concept to understand, but God through Jesus bore the punishment (death) of sins of humans, who God allowed to have freewill in hope of his creation having a relationship with him through Christ. The Bible's popularity as the most read, published, sold, etc. book of all time is because of its message and contains many great historical accuracies, sound new philosophies that hold to today, and figurative parables that display real world values.
zacsmusic17 2 years ago
> the trinity is a tricky concept to understand,
From the secular perspective, it's easy to understand: the Bible has two conflicting storylines: many passages say Jesus is God's Son—two entirely separate entities—but monotheism demands that we interpret certain other vague passages as Jesus = God made flesh.
So to reconcile these clashing interpretations, the Church (at the Council of Nicaea) invented the Trinity.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
So, actually it does a lot of good, people are less wicked and this story serves as at least a reminder of "actions have consequences". Jesus' death on the cross isn't meant to be tailor made for a good action movie or book, but history (which you discredit, I assume). His death is fulfillment of OT's death is punishment for sin hence the sacrificial offerings of animals for sin. Considering your analogy, it doesn't quite make sense because the driver would not be God, but humans' sin.
zacsmusic17 2 years ago
1 of 2:
> Jesus' death is fulfillment of OT's death is punishment for sin hence the sacrificial offerings of animals for sin.
As something of a side point, making bloody sacrifices (animal or human) in the hopes of appeasing an Angry Divinity is not unique to Christianity: it's a *staple* of ancient religions worldwide. (I have a video on this called "5.3: God sacrifices Self to appease Self--barking mad?")
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 2:
> Considering your analogy, it doesn't quite make sense because the driver would not be God, but humans' sin.
I think my analogy of humans being the ones playing in the street (doing something they're not supposed to) still holds. Humans are doing the disobedience, and God (the driver of the car) is the one doing the punishing (driving the car to hit the disobedient children / sending non-Christians to hell).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Also, God's rest on the 7th day is (I believe literal 7 days but that's a different discussion) evidence of biblical typology of the Jews' sabbath day. God created humans knowing that they would disappoint him, but his regret is evidence of his emotional attachment to his creation. Genesis 6:5 says basically that God knew every thought of man was continually evil. That is justifiable for punishment, and afterwards until this day I think you would agree that man's every thought is not evil.
zacsmusic17 2 years ago
> God created humans knowing that they would disappoint him
Parents can be disappointed with their children, but that's because we don't know exactly how they'll turn out. There's a gap between our expectations and reality.
But with omniscience and omnipotence on god's side, "disappointment" makes no sense. That's like me making a car with square wheels and being disappointed that it doesn't move well.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
I think you have made some logical points and I appreciate you actually taking the time to read the bible completely and your courage to stand up and use reason to combat that which most accept blindly. That being said, I am a genuine Christian and believe that God can't be held to literary standards and that his divinity provides a unique protagonist vs. insufficient antagonist literary type, whereas hero vs villain types are quite cliche nowadays.
zacsmusic17 2 years ago
1 of 2:
> I think you have made some logical points and I appreciate you actually taking the time to read the bible completely and your courage to stand up and use reason to combat that which most accept blindly.
Thank you!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
2 of 2:
> That being said, I am a genuine Christian and believe that God can't be held to literary standards
Well, if the Bible was really a historically accurate book, then I actually agree with you. There's no reason that history has to stand up to the standards of fiction.
The comparison to fiction was just a vehicle to discuss questions such as "What reason is there for an omnipotent god to experience conflict?" and "Why would Satan think he could defeat an omnipotent god?"
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
no no no no...there r no inconsistencies here nor any mistakes... HE needed the day rest was because it was heck of a SIX DAYS...u know.. much like working in the field toiling those land hoping to get green pastures for his creation..bla bla bla...u know...
mykegoh 2 years ago
> HE needed the day rest was because it was heck of a SIX DAYS
I guess even omnipotence has its limits!
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
again no no no no..u got it wrong...i meant the person who wrote that story...u know..HE sat up and wrote for SIX DAYS continuously....now tell me is that not tougher than toiling the field...
u know...u got to let ur imagination flows a bit when it comes to reading the bible..makes good bed time great stories..moreover..u got to give some respect to HIM.(now don't jump conclusion again here, i'm referring to the writer) :)
mykegoh 2 years ago
You are in conflict with the Author of Life.
TalkforTruth 2 years ago
Chuck Norris?
Stringprodigy 2 years ago