(part 2 - I hate limited characters) I support some people in the spotlight being outspoken so that they can inspire others to become more outspoken themselves. I think that if I spoke out as brashly as Bill Maher does, I'd quickly lose friends and personal supporters, but it IS important for me to state my stance and WHY I believe as I do. If we all do this, we're more likely to gain a foothold.
I'm not an atheist, but a true agnostic (I honestly don't know if there's a higher consciousness or not and will not make a judgment on it, but don't accept any religions). I love to watch people like Bill Maher rip into religion, and I mostly agree with his viewpoints on it, but myself am not so virulently anti-religious. I'd really like to speak out like Bill does, but I respect that other people have different opinions. I want to put my perspective out there without offending them.
I've been waiting for someone to frame the "moderate" vs. "hardline" debate in this way. I watched the Magic Sandwich Show last week on this very topic, and while both sides were elaborated upon, not once did anyone suggest that there might be a utility to having both moderate and hard-line approaches at once for different audiences.
I do a lot of work in LGBT issues, and we have the exact same debate on tactics. I imagine most identity-based political groups must struggle with this.
@unassumption I dont think we have equality in many places, churches world wide are still tax exempt, have powerful lobby groups in government, etc, mentioning your a theist will not block from government but mentioning your atheist will.
@hmadov "their refusal to think about it"....If thats the biggest problem with militant atheists then thats pretty good.
We already know what the actions of a militant theist look like and its bit harsher than refusing to think like you want them to.
Would u expect a militant Christian to be different?
I suggest to you that if you already are aware that a militant person will not listen, regardless of their beliefs, that you not waste your time with them, ur comment seems dishonest.
You really think atheists have the power to alter people's voting behaviour? That people who watch atheists don't know they're atheists and have their minds made up on that shit? It's such a small message on youtube it doesn't really matter what we say. We're viewed by a maximum of 100,000 people many out of the country, let's say thunderfoot has 60,000 US viewers or so, compared with FOX 70 million odd, it's a drop of water in the ocean. We might as well be talking in the kitchen.
I know we have to be careful due to quotemining but unless you're the size of the four horsemen, you're just delluding yourself if you think you're big enough to be quote mined.
Thunderfoot may THINK he brought down the government of pakistan and is going to start a global revolution, but he's barely more influential than a school teacher (100 students, 100 thousand subs, not that big a leap). It's only the BIG guys who need to worry and they're not doing the 'act like a right winger' thing
Plus some atheists are right wing republicans (or worse libertardians) themselves.
Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't want to support the crazy shit the GOP is voting
Atheists aren't all smart
Since atheists have equal rights in most of the world, atheists outside the US (thunderfoot, pat, Dawkins, etc) may want more than just equality and have expressed as much... and may be able to get it in their part of the world. They might not care what effect they have on fundie land.
@FreeOneSolo agreed regardless of what your believe (in regards to religion or lack there of, etc) hating eachother isn't going to solve any problems, nor is starting wars with everyone just to say "I'm right you're wrong", which we as a species have been doing for far too long
@steinwaygrande1 I'll take your well thought out, careful analysis and detailed rebuttal of what I said under advisement and file it in the appropriate rectangular storage bin.
Hello Pooka. One other thing that atheists here on Youtube have in common is that we're all on the exact same page in the Islamic world's "to do" list. The subdivisions of "moderate" and "militant" don't make count for anything under sharia law. This video has many, many good points. But on relection, how are atheists supposed to remain "moderate" with regard to ideologies that do not feel we should have the right to exist at all? Regards from "Heaven's Toilet", Scandinavia...
I'd say the best way to do that is to determine the actual agenda, intentions and desires of the group/ people in question. Ideology isn't always in sync with the "base" desires of the average human and when it comes to members of a group there is never a true consensus on interpretation. . Honestly I'm not really crazy about these labels as well. I suspect they don't help characterize the nature of the debate. I may have to do a dreaded follow up on this.
@TheTruePooka Yes, both moderate and militant atheists still tend to limit themselves to verbal argument. I’m not aware that we have any armed wing willing and able to use violence to force atheism on others or to kill anyone who heeds the call of religion. So in that way at least we’re all moderate in method even if somewhat militant in the way we express our demands that our lives and integrity be respected. The latter is non-negotiable. But do a follow up by all means. Take care.
We could just fight back and 'annihilate' them all. The big advantage is that they hate science, and at best can only apply what we find out. It's just a matter of separating ourselves from them, and no longer sharing anything at all.
@TheTruePooka pooka, u are a good and honest person,the problem with militant atheists is not their stating of facts but how they state it and their refusal to think about it and (atleast for the case of islam) they dont study the oppostion clearly but restate steoretypes.
@TheTruePooka i tried to debate with some of them but they start cursing and offending me and talking to me as if i was an idiot. if somebody tells me that he doesnt see any proof for my god or that the deeds of prophet mohammad sound bad for him i wont be angry if wants to discouss this with me politly, but i wont tolerate those who say that im lieng to cover my religion and insist on their sterotypes or start offending my god or prophet and calling them names
LOL! Yup. Good points. The wicked sin-soaked repubuglies and their sin-soaked rich right-wing preachers are liars and workers of satan and they are shoving those lies down their own people's throats and using these issues for power and money. I hope everyone wakes up to this but they are still hard at work for satan to find more things to keep their attention away from their corruption and sin. I'm blowing the Whistle on them, I am.
yo...Hell's Kitchen has maintained its name "HELLS KITCHEN" even though real-estate tried to change it into "Clinton"....but even the gentrifying-yups that moved in ended up liking the name & the "Live n let-Live" Praxis of the neighborhood...funny how such a place has kept a lot of its identity,but,it used to be a lot wilder.BUT...somehow its still "HELLS-KITCHEN" ..ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS...there is no such thing as the mafia,everybody in hell's kitchen would agree on that TRUTH,just ask anyone..
would you consider Jonathan Miller hard line or moderate? I judge him to be hard line, yet, I think even most religious people do (or would if they knew of him) find him charming & pleasant. I must admit that I am a strong believer in enlightenment principles and am four square against religious power - yet I do prefer to be entertained as well as enjoined - when reading about or watching videos on - the topic.
its a shame trying to get us atheists to have a more unified stance is kinda like trying to heard cats, its just one of those things that never work. i am trying to find more like minded people where i am but yay for being in the bible belt.
I agree w/ most of your concepts, especially the dehumanizing legislation.
One philosophical topic we must discuss is demonization & character assassination: a.k.a name calling. Calling a fellow human "militant", "hard line" or "moderate" is to paint that person w/ a static label. We must dialogue beyond labels in order to treat each other as dynamic humans with the ability to change - or else we risk preventing our adversaries from ever changing beyond the label with which we draped upon them.
Right-wingers: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part, who would best serve humanity by picking up a science book and putting away the superstitious nonsense that currently empowers their collective ignorance.
Muslims: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part, who would best serve humanity by picking up a science book and putting away the superstitious nonsense that currently empowers their collective ignorance.
@rationalmuscle "Muslims: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part"
For the most part? I think you are getting it completely backward... just as in 'western' countries like the UK, mos of the population even in countries like 'Saudi' Arabia are not exactly enamoured of the government and the views they are pushing. Salafism is not as widespread among everyday citizens of the Islamic countries as you might think. Top Gear even managed to get swamped by admiring fans in their recent special
@seansalvador1 Perhaps I should clarify: Anyone who puts their faith and trust in book that was not written but loosely "inspired" by a warmongering pedophile can and will be classified as a nut job when it comes to their grip on the rational world. That does not mean they are not nice, against their government, etc. As for how "back-ass" they are? Depends on their level of subscription to said belief system. The sooner this reality is faced, the better humankind will be.
Every social movement has/had its moderate and its militant wings. And both of these wings are valid and necessary. When the social movement succeeds, the moderates inherit the benefits, but it is the militant wing that makes the most gains.
Good point. MalcolmX, Queer Nation, and Peta for example have all been very effective in bringing attention to their respective issues, and they have all attracted the ire, and had their efforts labeled as counterproductive by the more moderate forces within those movements.
You have set up a bit of a false dichotomy here. Hard-line atheism calling out Islam for the blood cult it is does not necessarily make someone look like they are endorsing conservative bigots; you simply state Islam is just as sick and dangerous as Christianity and they both are bigoted, violent blood cults based on proven false fairy tales.
oh, ya, by the way. Fuck Islam. Screw Judaism. All the Abraham descendants need to be put in their place. Give no quarter, and take no prisoners.
I don't have to explain how the universe got here in order to dismiss ridiculous religious claims. I don't know. We learn more every day, if the crazy fundamentalists stay out of our way. You "godly" people are flat out wrong. You don't know and either do I.
Even if this was a "Christian nation", which it wasn't, it is time to change that
I gave up Atheism for Anti-theism. I do not seek dialogue. I now ridicule and embarrass believers. They are wrong, their ignorance and superstitious beliefs are dangerous. There is no conversation to be had. I do not debate weather a virgin can or can not have a baby. People do not rise from the dead, and if they do you hit them in the head with a rock immediately. There is no Hell, so I ignore their hollow threats. Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
@GumbosGh0st No, but the misconception is an easy one to acquire.
Anti-theism also is not equal to liberalism.
Not even ant-theocratism is equal to liberalism.
It is the context of the political landscape, that creates that mirage.
You would find that most who oppose the dogma of theocratic fascism, are actually left-libertarians. It is a prime agenda of theocratic fascist to paint themselves as "conservative" when they are not, and paint everyone else as "liberal", when they probably are not.
Is Sharia the only theocracy overthrowing governments?
While it is true that you may FEEL that speaking out exclusively against the encroachment of the political aspects of Islam upon government, is not supporting the opposing totalitarian theocracy to Sharia, that perception cannot be a correct one. That FEELING is fallacious, in either opining that there are no opposing theocracies, or that one is better than another.
@DonQuixotedeKaw This is a non-argument that comes up now and then about any topic. Why is it that if I say one thing, you assume that I necessarily exclude other things?
@CMO999 The erroneous nature of reinforcing the indoctrinated perceptions of the ill informed, is what I believe this video is about. His point was that you cannot speak out about the totalitarian ideology of Islam, without being associated with right wing American politics. By stating that you disagreed with Pooka, you implied that you practice your dissent of "Islam", with exclusivity. Your fail to discern between a faith & its theocracy; also implicative. You make his point. Be more clear.
@DonQuixotedeKaw I see! Well, it might have to do with where I live. I'm from Canada eh? That probably has something to do with why I don't feel that I am associated with right wing American politics when I express my dissent of Islam. People in Canada tend to be less polarized than people in the United States of America.
But seriously, I understand that the recent elections in Canada have been very good for theocrats there. I send you my hopes that you there, can avoid the traps we fell into, that make this video and its like, necessary. I say this selfishly, for the theocracy of the 400, is so determined to consume the USA, that soon anyone with a brain, not in the cult, will be looking for a place to go. That had been Canada, but the writing is on the wall; your nation is in danger.
@DonQuixotedeKaw Religious people in Canada tend to be less extreme. For example, no politician in Canada would publicly say that we don't need to worry about environmental concerns because the Bible says.. whatever. Didn't something like that happen in the US recently? That is unheard of here. I'm more concerned about economic disparity than about theocracy, the Conservatives here cater more to the concerns of the wealthy than the needs of the poor.
Are you implying laws got passed solely because of conservatives? Have you ever given thought to the possibility that some of these events could be staged to distract you from economic issues? For example, pretending to fight over abortion and a looming "government shutdown" is a great way to force through a bill to cut $100 billion in food subsidies for the lower and middle class.
I consider myself a militant moderate atheist. I stay quiet and reserved until someone starts spouting the religious idiocy in front of me, at which point I begin talking very strongly.
5:00 is so true, I am a libertarian, and a atheist (some what) militant and any time I agree with a right winger they think I am one with them even though I'm socially far left!
Good video. But I'm now going to digress and say, "whatever happened to the impending debate between you and Nephilimfree?" Surely you've reached his sub numbers by now.
What I don't understand is why conservatives can't be right about how dangerous islam is while still being wrong about damn near everything else at the same time.
The attempts to get their shariah law put in alongside with everyone else's law, for instance, is a lot more dangerous than most people might think; we've seen how separate they want the two laws when cartoonists draw
It's like thinking Palin is smart because liberals hate her. Islam's a diversion, but what they say isn't far off
@EdwardHowton Because Islam isn't an individual person and doesn't actually have goals. There is no "their shariah". Arguments over what shariah law shoudl include is one thing that divides Muslims into subcategories.
Are certain interpretations of Islam dangerous? Absolutely. Is Islam itself actually out to get the West? Nope.
@sofiarune That makes no sense. Islam isn't a person, that's true. It's also meaningless. Muslims are people and it's their shariah law which is inspired by islam. "Arguments over[...] subcategories" and those subcategories kill each other over it. Islam isn't just dangerous to unbelievers, it's dangerous to itself.
"interpretations" Surah 9:5 has interpretations that aren't dangerous? Because "kill unbelievers" isn't really open to interpretation. That's not just West, it's a global threat
@EdwardHowton Yes some Muslims interpret Islam in a way that is dangerous. Lots don't. "Shariah" isn't something you can characterise easily either. There is no concensus yet people like you talk about it as if it is then when called on it you spin on a dime and bring up sectarian violence. I have lived in exclusively Muslim areas as the only Western woman and I'm alive and well. The Muslims there weren't killing eachother or threatening me for disagreements. So much for Surah 9:5.
@sofiarune So you're basically arguing that islam isn't bad because certain muslims are bad at their religion. I had this same conversation about the bible a few days ago with other overly ingratiating people who were trying to go out of their way to excuse the worst atrocities of scripture with the good behaviour of the people who fail to apply, say, Leviticus 20:13.
The fact remains the commandment is in the book, in the religion, and thus the religion is dangerous. Bad muslim= good person
@sofiarune And by the way, YOU brought up sectarian violence. I agreed that the lack of a consensus resulted in them killing each other over it. Did you read someone else's comment or something? Couldn't have been mine. I just pointed out that muslims kill outsiders for breaking islamic laws they're not subject to.
Also, my initial question was "why conservatives can't be right about how dangerous islam is while still being wrong"etc. You went off on a tangent. Get back on track please.
Re: Kitzmiller vs Dover. While it seems to me that those who want to teach ID in schools are probably a lost cause, it would be good to appeal to moderate conservatives by presenting this trial (and others like it) as an act of patriotism, since - despite the courtroom hoo-hah - it's not really about bacterial flagella, nor is it about atheists vs believers; it's actually about defending the Constitution.
That's not the title I see. "Militant (Atheism) vs Moderate Atheism- Losing the Forest for the Trees" Other than that a fairly decent video with some well expressed points.
@EpicurusGardens ehh I'm not as sure about that, the aggressive and loudest of any group certainly seem to have the greatest following, as that following is the loudest. I think the silent majority greatly outweighs the radical, vocal minority
The republicans and right wing media have sure helped the under taxed, overrepresented, unregulated rich and cooperations batter the middle class of this country to the edge of poverty . Not to mention stolen some of our human right way in flash of pen which cost us so dearly to get.
What you gotta do is be hard-line but subtle about it. Be extremely self aware so as not to invite the accusation of thinking in black in white terms. Be emotionally intelligent, gifted at communicating effectively, but not at the expense of your rock hard spine. Be fearless, determined, direct, and above all, have a sense of humor ;)
but that is exactly what moderation is: you have a backbone, but you're diplomatic about it. could be that as a middle easterner, I tend to naturally be more simplistic in my thinking, but that is how I was made to understand the concept.
I believe Ghaddafi here has a point. Being a Trotskyist, I find that when I initially say I am a Marxist, Communist, or Socialist, I have to be careful how I word myself so it's clear that I oppose and am different from the Soviet Union and other former socialist powers politically and morally. But as he said, if you have to explain your position, you've already lost.
I consider myself fairly "moderate" though I do have the habit of chewing theists out when they annoy me too much. Can't help my temper. ;3
On the other hand, I'm German and it's a whole different story here. Especially in politics. The Christian Democratic Union is Christian pretty much in name only -and the vice-chancellor is openly gay. (I still don't like the current government, but I won't start ranting about that now.)
If I lived in the US, I'd probably become a more aggressive atheist.
Neither atheism nor theism in the US is as black and white as it's painted in youtube debates. TheTruePooka referenced Kitzmiller v. Dover--the judge finding in favor of evolution and against ID in the case was a *theist*, as were several of Kitzmiller's key witnesses.
My parents and my siblings are all atheists. I'm the only liberal in the bunch. Social/political/religious cookie cutters don't apply, even in the US. Atheism doesn't align with a political pov.
I think this is mostly correct, But rather than 2 different kinds of atheism, I see it as 2 different 'gears' of Atheism, and I quite happily switch from one to the other depending on who I'm debating or discussing with.
I don't think of atheism as a political bloc-it's not a scientific position either. It has no grand purpose.
But as an atheist it pisses me off big time to see certain atheists hijacking atheism into a "faction" of some particular stripe. It's not a goddamn brand...and no atheist, no matter how popular they are, own the franchise for it. I'm more irritated with atheists who do this than I am with theists who stereotype us, because the atheists who do this are *misappropriating* the term.
@Beriaal That's not a bad attempt at labeling... but I still have problems with it. Mind you, I'm also not entirely happy with my use of "moderate" as well. I chose "Hard-line" & "moderate" because they have a "meme-ish" attractiveness to them but moderate has negative connotations that don't do it any favors.
I believe I am this kind of extremist atheist. I have no problem saying that religion is bull shit. But at the same time, I don't want to push my view on others. I want everyone to be equal and I want for everyone to practice any religion they want as long as it respects the law. This is no extreme compare to some religious people pushing their views of hate and teaching false science to kids. They are no real extreme atheists.
I disagree with your definition of hard line "militant" atheism. My own personal approach is to simplify the argument. I oppose religion because I do not subscribe to the concept of god. I am referred to as Hard Line because of this, but in reality, I simplify the argument without ideological association. It is moderate thinkers that read into this all sorts of left or right wing associations that simply dont exist.
Its a good discussion. Im glad someone is talking about this! Keep it up
@binaryblade2 That's true. however, when it comes to holding up an atheist to show they're offensive, you tend to see the more hard line atheists on the conservative shows. Conservative pundits have gotten very good at twisting their opposition's strengths to appear as weaknesses.
Aaah pooka the only guy on youtube who's cat vids i don't mind watching :). Great video as always fella. Once again well argued with a clear considered point.
heres a question though would you say it possible to be considered a bit of both say a moderate hardliner??
I can't worry about who might share my opinion on an issue. There are an awful lot of issues and crazy people are bound to agree with me here and there. If I start taking that stuff into account I am back to letting others control what I think. If one lumps me into a group based on one or two opinions they are foolish and there is not too much I can do about that or even care to.
@LictorCrotch Ah - sorry mate. I was worried that despite my best efforts my confirmation bias would win out and I'd appear to be showing favoritism. I thought you were calling me out on that.
@TheTruePooka No apology is necessary and I would have called you out had I thought that. I do that and expect that from friend,enemy and neutral. Food for thought: watch?v=m9AFmNmhw38
It gets interesting around three and half minutes in and the fifth minute really hits home now more than ever.
I think there are a lot of wingnuts that fly the flag Atheism out of convenience as an attempt to co-opt the 'movement'. I know a lot of RWs that are actual Atheists though as well
@HeavyTrafficAhead The Republican Party did an excellent job of co-opting the Tea Party movement. This shows they're very, very good at taking charge of grass roots movements and steering their direction.
I see nothing to suggest they can't do the exact same thing with us.
I think the subtle approach is subject to the same flaws of the brash version. The subtle approach is just as subject to broad generalizations and simplistic conclusions. Without addressing addressing the subject in harsh terms, the subject is not sufficiently discussed. The moderate position is just as subject to bigotry by it's opposition.
The subject is complicated, but I don't think that the aggressive approach precludes this.
@drfoxcourt I suspect you are right. The best thing about the two positions is if we don't close down communications between these two groups, they can cross check each other.
Well I'm a conservative atheist who doesn't mind saying that I would like to see a lot changed under the big tent of the GOP and you wont catch me watching SNL or the daily show thats for sure!
It's weird being a person of the secular right especially sense I'm a moderate fiscal progressive and a supporter of small government unless you are keeping the planet green, providing health care, supporting science or helping the poor I want nothing to do with the managerial state or statist either.
Hard line atheists encourage discussion like the WBC encourages discussion. Yes, powerful right wing media; a massive coalition of Fox news, the Idaho Observer.......dang it.
@mattschol I meant to imply that the nature with which they approach the dialogue encourage discussion, not they themselves. I would say that others end up in discussion because of their actions. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
It is difficult at times to find a balance between being reasonable and being effective. I would personally like to see this country start having "rational" conversations concerning policy, ethics, leadership, blah blah blah.
I chose Bakunin because he was exactly as you described. He was extremely critical of religion even turning Voltaire's quote on it's head and saying, "If there was a God then it would be necessary to abolish him." however, he was extremely open to religious people and helped many. I believe he had found a balance between his hardline position and the moderate one and was very careful to not fall in line with reactionaries.
@Christ724 However, he did end up succumbing to reactionary sentiment. He was an anti-semite but seeing as it was Europe in the late 19th century the hatred towards Jews was prevalent in Europe. It just goes to show, like you said, you advance reactionary ideas and you'll be viewed as a reactionary.
Everyone contradicts themselves and will always do so, politicians, you name it, all contradict themselves.
underatedly 2 months ago
@underatedly Yep. The trick is to know when it is an issue or not.
TheTruePooka 2 months ago
(part 2 - I hate limited characters) I support some people in the spotlight being outspoken so that they can inspire others to become more outspoken themselves. I think that if I spoke out as brashly as Bill Maher does, I'd quickly lose friends and personal supporters, but it IS important for me to state my stance and WHY I believe as I do. If we all do this, we're more likely to gain a foothold.
supinlick2000 7 months ago
I'm not an atheist, but a true agnostic (I honestly don't know if there's a higher consciousness or not and will not make a judgment on it, but don't accept any religions). I love to watch people like Bill Maher rip into religion, and I mostly agree with his viewpoints on it, but myself am not so virulently anti-religious. I'd really like to speak out like Bill does, but I respect that other people have different opinions. I want to put my perspective out there without offending them.
supinlick2000 7 months ago
I've been waiting for someone to frame the "moderate" vs. "hardline" debate in this way. I watched the Magic Sandwich Show last week on this very topic, and while both sides were elaborated upon, not once did anyone suggest that there might be a utility to having both moderate and hard-line approaches at once for different audiences.
I do a lot of work in LGBT issues, and we have the exact same debate on tactics. I imagine most identity-based political groups must struggle with this.
thelaughingman16 7 months ago
Is it ok to say i love you on every video?
TheRunner041795 7 months ago
@TheRunner041795 :D
TheTruePooka 7 months ago
@unassumption I dont think we have equality in many places, churches world wide are still tax exempt, have powerful lobby groups in government, etc, mentioning your a theist will not block from government but mentioning your atheist will.
shandcunt 8 months ago
@hmadov "their refusal to think about it"....If thats the biggest problem with militant atheists then thats pretty good.
We already know what the actions of a militant theist look like and its bit harsher than refusing to think like you want them to.
Would u expect a militant Christian to be different?
I suggest to you that if you already are aware that a militant person will not listen, regardless of their beliefs, that you not waste your time with them, ur comment seems dishonest.
shandcunt 8 months ago
You really think atheists have the power to alter people's voting behaviour? That people who watch atheists don't know they're atheists and have their minds made up on that shit? It's such a small message on youtube it doesn't really matter what we say. We're viewed by a maximum of 100,000 people many out of the country, let's say thunderfoot has 60,000 US viewers or so, compared with FOX 70 million odd, it's a drop of water in the ocean. We might as well be talking in the kitchen.
unassumption 8 months ago
I know we have to be careful due to quotemining but unless you're the size of the four horsemen, you're just delluding yourself if you think you're big enough to be quote mined.
Thunderfoot may THINK he brought down the government of pakistan and is going to start a global revolution, but he's barely more influential than a school teacher (100 students, 100 thousand subs, not that big a leap). It's only the BIG guys who need to worry and they're not doing the 'act like a right winger' thing
unassumption 8 months ago
Plus some atheists are right wing republicans (or worse libertardians) themselves.
Being an atheist doesn't mean you don't want to support the crazy shit the GOP is voting
Atheists aren't all smart
Since atheists have equal rights in most of the world, atheists outside the US (thunderfoot, pat, Dawkins, etc) may want more than just equality and have expressed as much... and may be able to get it in their part of the world. They might not care what effect they have on fundie land.
unassumption 8 months ago
u should put this as a video response to some of thunderf00t's videos ...
FF7Master 8 months ago
@FreeOneSolo agreed regardless of what your believe (in regards to religion or lack there of, etc) hating eachother isn't going to solve any problems, nor is starting wars with everyone just to say "I'm right you're wrong", which we as a species have been doing for far too long
experimental0000 8 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
what a load of brain washing crap and gobbldy gook ! Piss off you horrible piece of sub human shit
steinwaygrande1 9 months ago
@steinwaygrande1 I'll take your well thought out, careful analysis and detailed rebuttal of what I said under advisement and file it in the appropriate rectangular storage bin.
TheTruePooka 9 months ago 9
@TheTruePooka Very good indeed . You do just that , the same as I will do with yours
steinwaygrande1 9 months ago
I think that if you ultimately want someone to sympathize with you, offending them is probably not a good strategy.
SSJ3Ulcer 9 months ago
Great vid. Subbed.
Shadowlit001 9 months ago
I just wanna say your vids are always pretty good. How ever the past 6-7 have been extremely excelent.
TheMalcore 9 months ago
Hello Pooka. One other thing that atheists here on Youtube have in common is that we're all on the exact same page in the Islamic world's "to do" list. The subdivisions of "moderate" and "militant" don't make count for anything under sharia law. This video has many, many good points. But on relection, how are atheists supposed to remain "moderate" with regard to ideologies that do not feel we should have the right to exist at all? Regards from "Heaven's Toilet", Scandinavia...
deah99 9 months ago
@deah99 Hey! how you doing? :D
I'd say the best way to do that is to determine the actual agenda, intentions and desires of the group/ people in question. Ideology isn't always in sync with the "base" desires of the average human and when it comes to members of a group there is never a true consensus on interpretation. . Honestly I'm not really crazy about these labels as well. I suspect they don't help characterize the nature of the debate. I may have to do a dreaded follow up on this.
TheTruePooka 9 months ago
@TheTruePooka Yes, both moderate and militant atheists still tend to limit themselves to verbal argument. I’m not aware that we have any armed wing willing and able to use violence to force atheism on others or to kill anyone who heeds the call of religion. So in that way at least we’re all moderate in method even if somewhat militant in the way we express our demands that our lives and integrity be respected. The latter is non-negotiable. But do a follow up by all means. Take care.
deah99 9 months ago
@TheTruePooka
We could just fight back and 'annihilate' them all. The big advantage is that they hate science, and at best can only apply what we find out. It's just a matter of separating ourselves from them, and no longer sharing anything at all.
It's time to stop being subservient to religion.
CrimsonRefractions 9 months ago
@TheTruePooka pooka, u are a good and honest person,the problem with militant atheists is not their stating of facts but how they state it and their refusal to think about it and (atleast for the case of islam) they dont study the oppostion clearly but restate steoretypes.
ahmadov 8 months ago
@TheTruePooka i tried to debate with some of them but they start cursing and offending me and talking to me as if i was an idiot. if somebody tells me that he doesnt see any proof for my god or that the deeds of prophet mohammad sound bad for him i wont be angry if wants to discouss this with me politly, but i wont tolerate those who say that im lieng to cover my religion and insist on their sterotypes or start offending my god or prophet and calling them names
ahmadov 8 months ago
This may just be the most important video to come out of the YT atheist community in years. Thankyou sir.
hellbirdsflight 9 months ago
I'm a Christian and I would happily wear a Darwin fish shirt
rd1999 9 months ago
David Koresh looks healthier than ever!
beesleeper 9 months ago
LOL! Yup. Good points. The wicked sin-soaked repubuglies and their sin-soaked rich right-wing preachers are liars and workers of satan and they are shoving those lies down their own people's throats and using these issues for power and money. I hope everyone wakes up to this but they are still hard at work for satan to find more things to keep their attention away from their corruption and sin. I'm blowing the Whistle on them, I am.
Licmycat 9 months ago
6:23 to near 7:00 Well said Pooka.
ShortOrderLectrician 10 months ago
yo...Hell's Kitchen has maintained its name "HELLS KITCHEN" even though real-estate tried to change it into "Clinton"....but even the gentrifying-yups that moved in ended up liking the name & the "Live n let-Live" Praxis of the neighborhood...funny how such a place has kept a lot of its identity,but,it used to be a lot wilder.BUT...somehow its still "HELLS-KITCHEN" ..ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS...there is no such thing as the mafia,everybody in hell's kitchen would agree on that TRUTH,just ask anyone..
tlaniganschmidt 10 months ago
@tlaniganschmidt Yes. There is no such thing as the mafia... <.< :P
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka...."Wisdom is known by her Children"........&...true moderation can only exist in relationship to extremes....
tlaniganschmidt 10 months ago
Not bad.
That Phillip Morris rep must have been from Oklahoma. :D
bryantulsa 10 months ago
would you consider Jonathan Miller hard line or moderate? I judge him to be hard line, yet, I think even most religious people do (or would if they knew of him) find him charming & pleasant. I must admit that I am a strong believer in enlightenment principles and am four square against religious power - yet I do prefer to be entertained as well as enjoined - when reading about or watching videos on - the topic.
ThisbeandPyramus 10 months ago
@ThisbeandPyramus I suspect he'd be considered a hard line and a damned fine one. :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
this is definitely my favorite video of yours that I have seen, really lay it out straight, even provoked some ideas I'd never thought of before
great video, liked, faved, -theJamesPope
JamesEzSecretChannel 10 months ago
@JamesEzSecretChannel Thanks James, I appreciate the good words. :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
its a shame trying to get us atheists to have a more unified stance is kinda like trying to heard cats, its just one of those things that never work. i am trying to find more like minded people where i am but yay for being in the bible belt.
canuckscottsmen 10 months ago
I've watched this several times. This is really good Pooka.
ProportionalResponse 10 months ago
@ProportionalResponse Thanks PR - that means something coming from you. :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
I agree w/ most of your concepts, especially the dehumanizing legislation.
One philosophical topic we must discuss is demonization & character assassination: a.k.a name calling. Calling a fellow human "militant", "hard line" or "moderate" is to paint that person w/ a static label. We must dialogue beyond labels in order to treat each other as dynamic humans with the ability to change - or else we risk preventing our adversaries from ever changing beyond the label with which we draped upon them.
ShawnsterVideos 10 months ago
This is simple:
Right-wingers: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part, who would best serve humanity by picking up a science book and putting away the superstitious nonsense that currently empowers their collective ignorance.
Muslims: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part, who would best serve humanity by picking up a science book and putting away the superstitious nonsense that currently empowers their collective ignorance.
No apologies.
rationalmuscle 10 months ago
@rationalmuscle "Muslims: A group of back-ass nut jobs, for the most part"
For the most part? I think you are getting it completely backward... just as in 'western' countries like the UK, mos of the population even in countries like 'Saudi' Arabia are not exactly enamoured of the government and the views they are pushing. Salafism is not as widespread among everyday citizens of the Islamic countries as you might think. Top Gear even managed to get swamped by admiring fans in their recent special
seansalvador1 10 months ago
@seansalvador1 Perhaps I should clarify: Anyone who puts their faith and trust in book that was not written but loosely "inspired" by a warmongering pedophile can and will be classified as a nut job when it comes to their grip on the rational world. That does not mean they are not nice, against their government, etc. As for how "back-ass" they are? Depends on their level of subscription to said belief system. The sooner this reality is faced, the better humankind will be.
rationalmuscle 9 months ago
Great video Pooka! The cat sealed the video for me. ~.^
kelliko70 10 months ago
Every social movement has/had its moderate and its militant wings. And both of these wings are valid and necessary. When the social movement succeeds, the moderates inherit the benefits, but it is the militant wing that makes the most gains.
stevehayes13 10 months ago
Comment removed
TheNakedAtheist 10 months ago
@stevehayes13
Good point. MalcolmX, Queer Nation, and Peta for example have all been very effective in bringing attention to their respective issues, and they have all attracted the ire, and had their efforts labeled as counterproductive by the more moderate forces within those movements.
TheNakedAtheist 10 months ago
You have set up a bit of a false dichotomy here. Hard-line atheism calling out Islam for the blood cult it is does not necessarily make someone look like they are endorsing conservative bigots; you simply state Islam is just as sick and dangerous as Christianity and they both are bigoted, violent blood cults based on proven false fairy tales.
FlyingFree333 10 months ago
I like the same approach to Islam as the one Claire uses on xtianity. Just good-naturedly point out the absurdities and take the piss out of it.
curlew0609 10 months ago
Damn that cat is cute.
shaedies 10 months ago
Man, Pooka...this is like one of your best vids EVER. Thumbs upped and FAVED. Awesome work, really.
TheMercilessEye 10 months ago
Comment removed
zEropoint68 10 months ago
oh, ya, by the way. Fuck Islam. Screw Judaism. All the Abraham descendants need to be put in their place. Give no quarter, and take no prisoners.
I don't have to explain how the universe got here in order to dismiss ridiculous religious claims. I don't know. We learn more every day, if the crazy fundamentalists stay out of our way. You "godly" people are flat out wrong. You don't know and either do I.
Even if this was a "Christian nation", which it wasn't, it is time to change that
darbone 10 months ago
I gave up Atheism for Anti-theism. I do not seek dialogue. I now ridicule and embarrass believers. They are wrong, their ignorance and superstitious beliefs are dangerous. There is no conversation to be had. I do not debate weather a virgin can or can not have a baby. People do not rise from the dead, and if they do you hit them in the head with a rock immediately. There is no Hell, so I ignore their hollow threats. Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
They are wrong, that is all I know.
darbone 10 months ago 2
Moderate theist and atheist FTW
that's my opinion at least :D
LogicalThinker667 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Firiday May 13th its going to be -
Photoshop Thunderf00t Masturbating Day!
clownporn1 10 months ago
@GumbosGh0st No, but the misconception is an easy one to acquire.
Anti-theism also is not equal to liberalism.
Not even ant-theocratism is equal to liberalism.
It is the context of the political landscape, that creates that mirage.
You would find that most who oppose the dogma of theocratic fascism, are actually left-libertarians. It is a prime agenda of theocratic fascist to paint themselves as "conservative" when they are not, and paint everyone else as "liberal", when they probably are not.
DonQuixotedeKaw 10 months ago
I disagree. I feel that I can speak out about the totalitarian ideology of Islam without being associated with right wing American politics.
CMO999 10 months ago
@CMO999 Is water the only thing that is wet?
Are mosquitoes all that fly?
Is Sharia the only theocracy overthrowing governments?
While it is true that you may FEEL that speaking out exclusively against the encroachment of the political aspects of Islam upon government, is not supporting the opposing totalitarian theocracy to Sharia, that perception cannot be a correct one. That FEELING is fallacious, in either opining that there are no opposing theocracies, or that one is better than another.
DonQuixotedeKaw 10 months ago
@DonQuixotedeKaw This is a non-argument that comes up now and then about any topic. Why is it that if I say one thing, you assume that I necessarily exclude other things?
CMO999 10 months ago
@CMO999 The erroneous nature of reinforcing the indoctrinated perceptions of the ill informed, is what I believe this video is about. His point was that you cannot speak out about the totalitarian ideology of Islam, without being associated with right wing American politics. By stating that you disagreed with Pooka, you implied that you practice your dissent of "Islam", with exclusivity. Your fail to discern between a faith & its theocracy; also implicative. You make his point. Be more clear.
DonQuixotedeKaw 10 months ago
@DonQuixotedeKaw I see! Well, it might have to do with where I live. I'm from Canada eh? That probably has something to do with why I don't feel that I am associated with right wing American politics when I express my dissent of Islam. People in Canada tend to be less polarized than people in the United States of America.
CMO999 10 months ago
@CMO999 Blame Canada? ;-D
But seriously, I understand that the recent elections in Canada have been very good for theocrats there. I send you my hopes that you there, can avoid the traps we fell into, that make this video and its like, necessary. I say this selfishly, for the theocracy of the 400, is so determined to consume the USA, that soon anyone with a brain, not in the cult, will be looking for a place to go. That had been Canada, but the writing is on the wall; your nation is in danger.
DonQuixotedeKaw 10 months ago
@DonQuixotedeKaw Religious people in Canada tend to be less extreme. For example, no politician in Canada would publicly say that we don't need to worry about environmental concerns because the Bible says.. whatever. Didn't something like that happen in the US recently? That is unheard of here. I'm more concerned about economic disparity than about theocracy, the Conservatives here cater more to the concerns of the wealthy than the needs of the poor.
CMO999 10 months ago
Are you implying laws got passed solely because of conservatives? Have you ever given thought to the possibility that some of these events could be staged to distract you from economic issues? For example, pretending to fight over abortion and a looming "government shutdown" is a great way to force through a bill to cut $100 billion in food subsidies for the lower and middle class.
PoweredByMagnets 10 months ago
I consider myself a militant moderate atheist. I stay quiet and reserved until someone starts spouting the religious idiocy in front of me, at which point I begin talking very strongly.
randomizer1666 10 months ago
I Love you! Best video ever!!!
YAY!
OmegaRed665 10 months ago
TheTruePooka is my dad!
KillKeymo 10 months ago
I'm with you. WE need many approaches. I take the moderate approach, because there are already many doing the hard-line approach.
Although I disagree on one point....a moderate does not have to compromise on the important things, only to do so in a way that is more thoughtful
SiriusMined 10 months ago
5:00 is so true, I am a libertarian, and a atheist (some what) militant and any time I agree with a right winger they think I am one with them even though I'm socially far left!
Loganator259 10 months ago
I need to make a video just dissecting the resent schism in the atheist groups on youtube.
RomeoCo 10 months ago
Awesome p00kst3R; I'm liking you more day by day after I've subbed back
=3
TAz69x 10 months ago
Is it just me or just this guy sound just an awful lot like grapplingwithignorance?
mucephi1 10 months ago
When I worked in Indoneasia I had less rights than the muslims
now in Europe they have more rights than me
Yip i find that confusing as well,maybe that is why i get called an
islamophobe on the tube but not in the country i reside because
they do not have an equivilent for the word...........They are all called
Moros
be cool
000whiterabbit 10 months ago
Good video. But I'm now going to digress and say, "whatever happened to the impending debate between you and Nephilimfree?" Surely you've reached his sub numbers by now.
Hereticbooks 10 months ago
What I don't understand is why conservatives can't be right about how dangerous islam is while still being wrong about damn near everything else at the same time.
The attempts to get their shariah law put in alongside with everyone else's law, for instance, is a lot more dangerous than most people might think; we've seen how separate they want the two laws when cartoonists draw
It's like thinking Palin is smart because liberals hate her. Islam's a diversion, but what they say isn't far off
EdwardHowton 10 months ago
@EdwardHowton Because Islam isn't an individual person and doesn't actually have goals. There is no "their shariah". Arguments over what shariah law shoudl include is one thing that divides Muslims into subcategories.
Are certain interpretations of Islam dangerous? Absolutely. Is Islam itself actually out to get the West? Nope.
sofiarune 10 months ago
@sofiarune That makes no sense. Islam isn't a person, that's true. It's also meaningless. Muslims are people and it's their shariah law which is inspired by islam. "Arguments over[...] subcategories" and those subcategories kill each other over it. Islam isn't just dangerous to unbelievers, it's dangerous to itself.
"interpretations" Surah 9:5 has interpretations that aren't dangerous? Because "kill unbelievers" isn't really open to interpretation. That's not just West, it's a global threat
EdwardHowton 10 months ago
@EdwardHowton Yes some Muslims interpret Islam in a way that is dangerous. Lots don't. "Shariah" isn't something you can characterise easily either. There is no concensus yet people like you talk about it as if it is then when called on it you spin on a dime and bring up sectarian violence. I have lived in exclusively Muslim areas as the only Western woman and I'm alive and well. The Muslims there weren't killing eachother or threatening me for disagreements. So much for Surah 9:5.
sofiarune 10 months ago
@sofiarune So you're basically arguing that islam isn't bad because certain muslims are bad at their religion. I had this same conversation about the bible a few days ago with other overly ingratiating people who were trying to go out of their way to excuse the worst atrocities of scripture with the good behaviour of the people who fail to apply, say, Leviticus 20:13.
The fact remains the commandment is in the book, in the religion, and thus the religion is dangerous. Bad muslim= good person
EdwardHowton 10 months ago
@sofiarune And by the way, YOU brought up sectarian violence. I agreed that the lack of a consensus resulted in them killing each other over it. Did you read someone else's comment or something? Couldn't have been mine. I just pointed out that muslims kill outsiders for breaking islamic laws they're not subject to.
Also, my initial question was "why conservatives can't be right about how dangerous islam is while still being wrong"etc. You went off on a tangent. Get back on track please.
EdwardHowton 10 months ago
Re: Kitzmiller vs Dover. While it seems to me that those who want to teach ID in schools are probably a lost cause, it would be good to appeal to moderate conservatives by presenting this trial (and others like it) as an act of patriotism, since - despite the courtroom hoo-hah - it's not really about bacterial flagella, nor is it about atheists vs believers; it's actually about defending the Constitution.
Squagnut 10 months ago
You do realize don't you that using the term "militant atheist" makes you sound like you're part of the conservative Christian right wing.
TheNakedAtheist 10 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist Yes. That's why I choose not to use it.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka
That's not the title I see. "Militant (Atheism) vs Moderate Atheism- Losing the Forest for the Trees" Other than that a fairly decent video with some well expressed points.
TheNakedAtheist 10 months ago
@TheNakedAtheist That's deliberate. Call it an attempt to reference a meme created by others and re-brand it in one quick step.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
Im a hard line secularist. And i dont separate conservatives from islamists. They are both conservatives.
Lilja20 10 months ago 15
@Lilja20 :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@EpicurusGardens ehh I'm not as sure about that, the aggressive and loudest of any group certainly seem to have the greatest following, as that following is the loudest. I think the silent majority greatly outweighs the radical, vocal minority
Abent5866 10 months ago
Lol, good vid. :) I'm tired of being called a militant atheist...I'm actually not like that at all.
fruitikay 10 months ago
The republicans and right wing media have sure helped the under taxed, overrepresented, unregulated rich and cooperations batter the middle class of this country to the edge of poverty . Not to mention stolen some of our human right way in flash of pen which cost us so dearly to get.
AmericanResponses 10 months ago
What you gotta do is be hard-line but subtle about it. Be extremely self aware so as not to invite the accusation of thinking in black in white terms. Be emotionally intelligent, gifted at communicating effectively, but not at the expense of your rock hard spine. Be fearless, determined, direct, and above all, have a sense of humor ;)
~G.O.D.
ghostofdayinperson 10 months ago 9
@ghostofdayinperson black and* white terms
ghostofdayinperson 10 months ago
@ghostofdayinperson That's a good way to go. :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka I think you're like that, btw-- keep it up
ghostofdayinperson 10 months ago
@ghostofdayinperson
but that is exactly what moderation is: you have a backbone, but you're diplomatic about it. could be that as a middle easterner, I tend to naturally be more simplistic in my thinking, but that is how I was made to understand the concept.
Albukhshi 10 months ago
@ghostofdayinperson You perfectly described Christopher Hitchens.
thebgbb 10 months ago
I believe Ghaddafi here has a point. Being a Trotskyist, I find that when I initially say I am a Marxist, Communist, or Socialist, I have to be careful how I word myself so it's clear that I oppose and am different from the Soviet Union and other former socialist powers politically and morally. But as he said, if you have to explain your position, you've already lost.
DetectiveP 10 months ago
At the end, that's not a cat you have, it's a damn sabertooth!
squirreljester2 10 months ago
breath of fresh air, great, thoughtful video.
gothatfunk 10 months ago
I consider myself fairly "moderate" though I do have the habit of chewing theists out when they annoy me too much. Can't help my temper. ;3
On the other hand, I'm German and it's a whole different story here. Especially in politics. The Christian Democratic Union is Christian pretty much in name only -and the vice-chancellor is openly gay. (I still don't like the current government, but I won't start ranting about that now.)
If I lived in the US, I'd probably become a more aggressive atheist.
TheCuriousWays 10 months ago 2
@TheCuriousWays
Neither atheism nor theism in the US is as black and white as it's painted in youtube debates. TheTruePooka referenced Kitzmiller v. Dover--the judge finding in favor of evolution and against ID in the case was a *theist*, as were several of Kitzmiller's key witnesses.
My parents and my siblings are all atheists. I'm the only liberal in the bunch. Social/political/religious cookie cutters don't apply, even in the US. Atheism doesn't align with a political pov.
geodgereturns 10 months ago
I think this is mostly correct, But rather than 2 different kinds of atheism, I see it as 2 different 'gears' of Atheism, and I quite happily switch from one to the other depending on who I'm debating or discussing with.
I'm pretty sure most of us do.
TerminalHamster 10 months ago
I don't think of atheism as a political bloc-it's not a scientific position either. It has no grand purpose.
But as an atheist it pisses me off big time to see certain atheists hijacking atheism into a "faction" of some particular stripe. It's not a goddamn brand...and no atheist, no matter how popular they are, own the franchise for it. I'm more irritated with atheists who do this than I am with theists who stereotype us, because the atheists who do this are *misappropriating* the term.
geodgereturns 10 months ago
What confuses me is how you relate "The Islamic Debate" with issues such as abortion or gay rights.
shyvr 10 months ago
@shyvr Me too. I've also noticed that there's a little club of atheists who have a soft spot for Islam. I don't like it.
ghostofdayinperson 10 months ago
Good thoughts, TheTruePooka.
whistlingdust 10 months ago
I think everyone who believes in a God is suffering from brain damage and I say it as often as possible.Am I moderate or hard line?:)
phillozoph50 10 months ago
@Beriaal That's not a bad attempt at labeling... but I still have problems with it. Mind you, I'm also not entirely happy with my use of "moderate" as well. I chose "Hard-line" & "moderate" because they have a "meme-ish" attractiveness to them but moderate has negative connotations that don't do it any favors.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
I believe I am this kind of extremist atheist. I have no problem saying that religion is bull shit. But at the same time, I don't want to push my view on others. I want everyone to be equal and I want for everyone to practice any religion they want as long as it respects the law. This is no extreme compare to some religious people pushing their views of hate and teaching false science to kids. They are no real extreme atheists.
tubetib 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
GREAT video. I completely agree.
MNICY 10 months ago
Parts of this had you crossing the line from moderate to militant. Nice.
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut boy what a quick discerning mind you have...no subtly is ever lost on you
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon Thank you!
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut every turd needs an occassional kind word
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon You're so sweet.
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut I know...kills ya don't it?
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon It gets me hot. ;)
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut tell Michael...not me.
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon Oh my god, isn't he dreamy?
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut you tell me....and I will indulge you in this convo all day long..your mannerisms can't rattle me....seen it all before.
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon Yes he is. He is dreamy.
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut a dream to some....a nightmare to others..
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon You're not a fan?
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut of whom?
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon Of Michael.
TheLaughingOut 10 months ago
@TheLaughingOut Let no one say I can't play the diplomat card..in answer....as much as I am a fan of yours,or you of me.....simple enough?
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
@TheRogueMoon <--- Has been watching "Excalibur" again. :D
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka we have a winner
TheRogueMoon 10 months ago
I disagree with your definition of hard line "militant" atheism. My own personal approach is to simplify the argument. I oppose religion because I do not subscribe to the concept of god. I am referred to as Hard Line because of this, but in reality, I simplify the argument without ideological association. It is moderate thinkers that read into this all sorts of left or right wing associations that simply dont exist.
Its a good discussion. Im glad someone is talking about this! Keep it up
Digideus 10 months ago
There is an additional problem with the moderate position, it is still interpreted as offensive and thus the point of being a moderate is lost.
binaryblade2 10 months ago
@binaryblade2 That's true. however, when it comes to holding up an atheist to show they're offensive, you tend to see the more hard line atheists on the conservative shows. Conservative pundits have gotten very good at twisting their opposition's strengths to appear as weaknesses.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
the cat thanks you.
nekotenma 10 months ago
Aaah pooka the only guy on youtube who's cat vids i don't mind watching :). Great video as always fella. Once again well argued with a clear considered point.
heres a question though would you say it possible to be considered a bit of both say a moderate hardliner??
hiigara1 10 months ago
@hiigara1 Yes, I would. The terms themselves are to some degree meaningless.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
I can't worry about who might share my opinion on an issue. There are an awful lot of issues and crazy people are bound to agree with me here and there. If I start taking that stuff into account I am back to letting others control what I think. If one lumps me into a group based on one or two opinions they are foolish and there is not too much I can do about that or even care to.
prodigyat9 10 months ago
@prodigyat9 If it means that our actual desires are superseded by the others - then I think we had better start wondering if we should worry.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
My atheism is better than your atheism. /yawn
LictorCrotch 10 months ago
@LictorCrotch Why do I suspect your comment means you missed the point of the video.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka No idea. My comment meant that I'm tired and I already went through this in the 80s.
LictorCrotch 10 months ago
@LictorCrotch Ah - sorry mate. I was worried that despite my best efforts my confirmation bias would win out and I'd appear to be showing favoritism. I thought you were calling me out on that.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka No apology is necessary and I would have called you out had I thought that. I do that and expect that from friend,enemy and neutral. Food for thought: watch?v=m9AFmNmhw38
It gets interesting around three and half minutes in and the fifth minute really hits home now more than ever.
LictorCrotch 10 months ago
I think there are a lot of wingnuts that fly the flag Atheism out of convenience as an attempt to co-opt the 'movement'. I know a lot of RWs that are actual Atheists though as well
HeavyTrafficAhead 10 months ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead The Republican Party did an excellent job of co-opting the Tea Party movement. This shows they're very, very good at taking charge of grass roots movements and steering their direction.
I see nothing to suggest they can't do the exact same thing with us.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
I think the subtle approach is subject to the same flaws of the brash version. The subtle approach is just as subject to broad generalizations and simplistic conclusions. Without addressing addressing the subject in harsh terms, the subject is not sufficiently discussed. The moderate position is just as subject to bigotry by it's opposition.
The subject is complicated, but I don't think that the aggressive approach precludes this.
drfoxcourt 10 months ago
@drfoxcourt I suspect you are right. The best thing about the two positions is if we don't close down communications between these two groups, they can cross check each other.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
If you are an absolutist you are always going to end up with some strange bed fellows.
Take Qu'ran burning. Who would have believed the characters as diametrically opposed as Variablast and Ann Barnhardt could be on the same page?
gabiotta 10 months ago
Well I'm a conservative atheist who doesn't mind saying that I would like to see a lot changed under the big tent of the GOP and you wont catch me watching SNL or the daily show thats for sure!
It's weird being a person of the secular right especially sense I'm a moderate fiscal progressive and a supporter of small government unless you are keeping the planet green, providing health care, supporting science or helping the poor I want nothing to do with the managerial state or statist either.
Curas1 10 months ago
Well said.
6stringbadger 10 months ago
Hard line atheists encourage discussion like the WBC encourages discussion. Yes, powerful right wing media; a massive coalition of Fox news, the Idaho Observer.......dang it.
mattschol 10 months ago
@mattschol I meant to imply that the nature with which they approach the dialogue encourage discussion, not they themselves. I would say that others end up in discussion because of their actions. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@TheTruePooka Ah good point, thanks for the clarification.
mattschol 10 months ago
I don't understand the justification for the use of the word "militant" to describe what we understand to be the current Gnu atheist movement.
CntrBrdr 10 months ago
@CntrBrdr "militant" is a word that is used to label a group or person as reactionary, outside the mainstream, not open to reasonable discourse.
That's why I don't like using it. It is an unfair labeling of a particular group of atheists.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
Can I pet the cat even if I don't find these words upsetting?
SydneyTinker 10 months ago 5
@SydneyTinker :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
@SydneyTinker Do it for me, for I am allergic to cats :-(
FHomeBrew 10 months ago
It is difficult at times to find a balance between being reasonable and being effective. I would personally like to see this country start having "rational" conversations concerning policy, ethics, leadership, blah blah blah.
Is there something wrong w/ me?
GoatOfTheMountains 10 months ago 2
@GoatOfTheMountains No - there isn't. However, the current structure has a great deal of money riding on Americans NOT having a reasonable discourse.
So it won't happen easily.
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
I chose Bakunin because he was exactly as you described. He was extremely critical of religion even turning Voltaire's quote on it's head and saying, "If there was a God then it would be necessary to abolish him." however, he was extremely open to religious people and helped many. I believe he had found a balance between his hardline position and the moderate one and was very careful to not fall in line with reactionaries.
Christ724 10 months ago
@Christ724 However, he did end up succumbing to reactionary sentiment. He was an anti-semite but seeing as it was Europe in the late 19th century the hatred towards Jews was prevalent in Europe. It just goes to show, like you said, you advance reactionary ideas and you'll be viewed as a reactionary.
Christ724 10 months ago
@Christ724 Very true. :)
TheTruePooka 10 months ago
Great video.
Personally my favorite militant atheist is Mikhail Bakunin and his book, "God and the State"
Christ724 10 months ago