So what's the idea of this video? I don't get it... Christ said on the cross: "God, why have you forsaken me?" - it's a man Jesus Christ that died, not the Son of God which was in him(as it's written in 2 Cor 5:19 - "God was in Christ"). Check Hebrew 2:9 variant: "Christ, apart from God tasted death." Even Christ(at this time Son of God) says in John 2:19 - "Destroy the temple(Christ) and I will raise it." Scriptures are clear in Acts 2:31-33 - that God raised Christ, not Christ himself.
@gtepp031387 I did not forget about you and still would like to have non-confrontational talks. I never wanted to be a fighter in the first place, so don't think that about me. I know you get flack from others. I think some of them need to come down from their high-horse. Just been extremely busy. We will talk again when we both have time. Take care and God be with you!!
@womanwonder10 GOD bless you as well! I took a little break myself I was getting to frusterated and thus getting away from my focus on Christ.
I would like very much to discuss, from what I understand you are a Lutheran right? Our churches have had some very good talks of late and I hope to see once again full and complete union, I think the main problem between our two respected church is the authority of the sucessore of Peter...though I am not sure what your take is?
@gtepp031387 Well, we have some things in common. I think the differences, mainly, are justification by faith, prayer only to God( Father, Son, and, yes, Holy Spirit), our Holy Communion/Eucharist views are somewhat different, and we don't believe in purgatory..it hasn't changed from Luther's day. And no one likes us--the other protestants disagree, and the Catholics,too, disagree with us.So we are on our own. But I am solid in my faith as I see your are in yours.But we see you as Christians2.
@gtepp031387 I see what you guys go through on that one page(I will not repeat it's name on here).I am solid in my Lutheranism(check out/type in- Revfiskj -he's on Youtube).But you will not,despite our theological differences,see me calling Catholics names.I hate that!! It gets me upset how some are so self-righteous.Pharisee-like condemnation!Disgusting! As a Lutheran,I know it's wrong2bash a fellow believer in Christ's mercy.I have said things2 pompous,sanctimonious ppl,but I TRY2B kind2All.
@gtepp031387 Iwas running out of space and I pared-down all I could on characters! Anyway, I was trying to say that if you really want2know what I believe(I don't know all of what you believe,either--but I got a crash-course by listening/reading the Catholics defending their faith against that Calvinist&that Jehovah's Witness on that pg.)We have places of agreement.Checkout that pastor(he's kinda wired--caffeine?),he is very kind+humble like a Christian should be+as you all were on that page.pax
@womanwonder10 If it wasn't clear we believe that salvation is all by grace...and we recieve "grace for grace"(but only by the grace that was first recieved)....if this is followed we reach "salvation by sanctification"...We also would say that if one believed and then died immediatly he would have died in a state of grace, and would be saved once pruified by the fire that shall test each persons works. While one might suffer lost he shall still be saved, but only through fire.
@womanwonder10 I can see you are very kind hearted from your comments and not over judgmental, I thank you for that.
I would like to discuss the issue of justification by faith...the Catholic church teaches that faith initially justifies(mainly becaues it is the first work of the grace of GOD) but that faith without the support of continuing grace that gave the faith withers and dies. As it is written "faith without works is dead"
@womanwonder10...we believe that Grace gives faith, but that grace does not stop there.We believe that the grace of GOD will move one to the works of mercy and following all of GODs commands. We also believe that humans have a free will to choose to reject the grace of GOD, the grace may push and strengthen one greatly( and that nothing good can be dun without it) but it may not do so in a way that completely removes our free will.
@womanwonder10 Thus we believe that if the grace that gave the faith is rejected, the grace that sustained and stregthen the faith will be lost and the faith will wither and die...thus we "see how a person is justifed by works(of GODs grace) and not by faith alone(which is but one work of GODs grace"...well I think that is a start on how we believe if you have anything to say about this of wish to disagree or respond I would really love to discuss it.
@mlculwell I don't know much about Mormons and I never looked into it.I am Lutheran (Miss. Synod)& I feel+KNOW I AM where God WANTS me2be.I believe in JESUS as my Savior and I want 2live4 Him+That's where I'm staying.I try not 2get involved in the battles that include name-calling°rading others.But when + if someone says something about my faith/Creed,then I will respond.So 4you to say NON-oneness Pentecostals are onthe same level as Mormanism,that's a lie! One God In3Persons=Christianity101.
@mlculwell Not correct. Have you ever heard the Mormons sing "Holy,Holy,Holy, Lord God Almighty............", the song? They are more of a Pentecostal flavor, I think. For they do NOT say God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity. They will not say Trinity, instead, something, something deity! You can hear it for yourself, please look for it (on YouTube) under 'The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings Holy Holy Holy'. I think the early Christians knew best---and wanted to hold fast and hard to the Truth!GB
Woman wonder,Yes the Nicean creed is on the same level as the Book of Mormon. Direct me to the scriptures where Jesus tells us to follow the Nicean Creed as truth? I am a Oneness Pentecostal and Believe Jesus is the One true God and Him only shall I serve.
@mlculwell My response to that would be, "Show me something in the book of Mormon that is not attested to in Scripture." And you would show me many things. I would then say, "Show me something in the Nicene creed, or apostles creed, or Athanasian creed that is not attested to in Scripture." And you could show me nothing. Are the creeds inspired? No! But they are beautiful statements of what Scripture does say.
@ShuriRyuKa The Creeds are on the same level as the Book of Mormon there is nothing you can say otherwise in defense of either of them! I am a Oneness Pentecostal also!
I have a question No trin. has been able to answer and it totally refutes trinity doctrine as False and establishes the Oneness of God as truth.
Why are you able to blasphem the Holy Ghost and not the son of God?(Matth.12:31-32) The answer is because you falsely invert son of God into God the son.
@mlculwell What is present in the creeds that is not attested to in Scripture? Regarding Matthew 12:31-32 - It is strange you would use that verse, when that verse clearly illustrates the persons of the Trinity. I would use that passage to refute the Oneness position! Under your position, to blaspheme the one would be to blaspheme the other since they are one and the same. I will address why it is differentiated in the next comment.
@ShuriRyuKa To blaspheme Jesus would be to reject his claims to be God. Paul did this prior to his conversion on the Damascus road. To blaspheme the Spirit means to reject His testimony regarding the gospel (think Heb 6:4-8). Had Paul rejected the Damascus experience, he would be blaspheming the Spirit. (I affirm that would not have been possible, but that's another debate.) Paul was regenerated, therefore his prior rejection of the claims of Jesus was forgiven. This illustrates Mt. 12:31-32.
@ShuriRyuKa Sir, I did not ask you to tell m what the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is. Never the Less I get this every single time I ask a trinitarain the question. I suppose it is The question leaves trinity folk speechless and they have no answer. trins have no answer because they believe Jesus is God the son, a third of three. I believe Jesus is the Mighty God But he is also a real man and that is why you cannot blaspheme the son of God.(Matth 12:31-32) This establishes Oneness.
@ShuriRyuKa That is exactly how I see it. And you have said it so well! Thanks for all of your answers. They ring quite true to me, as you do seem to be Bible-based. True? Do you have other vids that explain other things, like this type? Take care!!
@ShuriRyuKa No we make a distinction that you do not make nor do you see.. it refutes your doctrine of the trinity... Please make sure you give this some thought before you answer again.
The son of God is a real man and not God the son. That is why you would not be able to blaspheme the son of God and be able to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.
One real man, and one real God Both in Jesus do not two persons of God make.
@ShuriRyuKa The compliment (directly above here) is in reply to your statement that begins -- "To blaspheme Jesus would be to reject His claims to be God." Also, I have learned some very historic, and, hence, interesting information here -- good stuff!!
@mlculwell As I said, the early Christians, the devout followers, knew best. I know some good, loving Pentecostals, but, still, I think that is wrong.The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. It is total rejection of the Savior,Jesus Christ. BTW,If that worries anyone,chances are excellent that they did not commit it.If you did, you would not care even one tiny iota (So don't give up and do yourself in, thinking you are hopeless, people. Satan lies+wants everyone to give up!)GBY
@ShuriRyuKa I do believe everything you've said here. I have believed this central truth as far back as I can remember. And I believe this was/is the work of the Holy Spirit. Thanks be to God, through Christ. What faiths (with-in Christianity) are Nestorians? Isn't non-denom one of them? Thank you.
@womanwonder10 Non-denominational Christianity runs a gambit of theological positions, but this would not (typically) be one of them. Nestorianism largely died out in the 7th and 8th centuries, although there are some Nestorian churches in Africa and the middle-east. Typically where it appears these days is through the well-intentioned teaching of those who have not studied church history, or the theological implications of their Christology.
@ShuriRyuKa Thanks for your answer.I appreciate it! Q4U==Is a heresy a deal-breaker w/God? I've never been called one, until here on YouTube! As much as I communicate w/other Christians,of every denomination--Prots and Caths, for many yrs. w/many people, it has never yet been a term directed 2me.Then YT changed that.I take my Christian faith very seriously.I love people. I do/will not judge/condemn others,but share our thoughts(or 4 me, my faith).Do you2 see judging+namecalling?-Alexa.GBY.
@ShuriRyuKa What died? Nestorians, after being banished from Roman Empire, started going to Asia and in rougly 200 years large portion of Chinese and Mongolians were Nestorian Christians...
@womanwonder10 "What faiths (with-in Christianity) are Nestorians?"
A Nestorian is anyone who rejects that Mary carried both the divinity and humanity inside her and gave birth to both in one flesh.
Nestorianism lead to Monophysitism, which became arguably the greatest heresy in the church, and it still contiunes today it followers are the Oriental Orthodox Church, who reject the ruling of the council of Chalcedon that Christ had both a human and divine will....
@gtepp031387 As a Missouri Synod Lutheran (always have to put that in there because of the few, but very vital differences w/the ELCA), I believe Jesus is the Son of God, who came in the flesh, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.As I'm sure you know, All of this in found in the old creeds written w/diligent faith and hearts filled with the Holy Spirit,by the early Christians.I believe that this denial involving Mary, began with the fear of Mary-worship.Cont...
@gtepp031387 Many people believe Catholics worship Mary. Many Cath.s have said that is not true.Personally,I don't understand why she should not be esteemed as the birth mother of Our Savior,though not 2be worshipped. I take them(Cath) at their word at this point. But many are reacting out of fear, but that concern is only valid if such were true.On Christology, I believe,Cath.& most MainlineProtestant churches including mine(we prefer Evangelical to Prot.) ARE in agreement,+We'reRight! GB
@womanwonder10 One of the dogmas of the Catholic church is "worship is for GOD alone"...since this is church dogma if someone does not believe this statement he/she is not Catholic. ...Mary is the greatest of all creatures and is due remeberance, honor, respect(veneration), and even glory(as long as one understands she recieves the glory given to the son as part of the body of Christ John 17:22), but she is still a creauture of GOD and must not be worshipped.
@gtepp031387 OK, I'll have to take your word for it, since I really never had a sure answer b4 for that. I guess, maybe it's a "semantical" thing with some others. Anyway, I do believe in esteeming her, that is to appreciate, admire, and to show regard to Mary. Some people probably would have a problem w/ that2. Oh well. If I do not feel convicted in my heart by God,and it doesn't contradict the Bible, then it's fine. And I do agree with you, that "worship is for God only".GBY:-)
@womanwonder10 But *many are reacting out of fear... The "many" I was talking about was not the Catholics, but some protestants that believe Catholics worship Mary. I have a few relatives that are Catholic--but we never get to those issues. I don't see them often(as they live fairly far away). They don't talk about their faith alot, but maybe 'cause I'm Lutheran. Though it'd be fine w/ me. But they're older, so it's respectful to leave that up 2them2decide, whether they want to.GB
@gtepp031387 I sent you an e-mail, but I didn't put your name at the start. Sorry, but you'll see it when/if you find where this one is, on the comments page. It should be right above where this one is (on the page). It's just a clearer explaination of what I wrote to you the day before. Take Care + God's blessing to you!!
@womanwonder10 I love discussing as long as it keeps in a loving manner, and would be open and hopeing to resolve the sad divisions that seperate us if you where ever wanting to discuss such things.
@womanwonder10 so what are some topics you would be intresting in discussing between us?...If you feel up to it, I do not want another argument where all there is is hate and attack, I have had WAY to many of those on You tube and I think I will have to leave this place for good If I engage in another....GBY to.
@gtepp031387 God bless you. I can tell you are such a sweet person! I'm kind of a vagabond. I visit whatever interests me. I went on the "Why I'm not a Catholic anymore" thing, maybe a couple weeks ago, and I made a few friends on there that are Catholic. I thought the prot.s were rude!Esp. this one>ff2222,gt1314. Aaargh. I thought we were going to have a chic slam-down!She was ridiculously cruel-mouthed.And then this JNE. Though I did agree with a good share,I have problem with....
@gtepp031387 Cont../ problems with his Calvinistic views.At first he really peed me off 'cause he seems "too in your face", but then he started sounding abit humble and I chilled.But, I thought, what I heard from the Cath.s was all pretty faithful to our Savior.But I figured I am gonna let the 2sides work it out--and they will.The prot.s there thought I was a Cath. because I was friendly with them.I donot want2 fight w/anyone.On that site--You'd think we're in N.Ireland!go to next
@gtepp031387 Anyway,I don't want to argue& I won't trash anyone.I'm not Cath.+I'm notCalvinist,either.Why can't we all justgo2our own churches and praise+thank Christ Jesus 4His death on the cross,+Life eternal w.Him,then we know we are of the Body of Christ.He shed His blood4us!And there are SO many ppl who donot knowthis,yet.Videos should focus on that.Don't let any1 hurtU.If Ucan say like Peter said"Thou art Christ, the Son of The Living God!",then Jesus saves U!Love2U! Alexa
@gtepp031387 Oh, I forgot, Would ya keep in touch with me, OK? I would like that!! God be with you! May His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May He give you His peace that passes all human understanding, In Jesus name. God truly bless you!!
@womanwonder10 Yes I have been to that Page "Why I'm not Catholic..."....It is a very sad page, and have found myself very frusterated with it, I try to stay away from it.
As far as why we can't go to any church, well I truley wish we could.... but there are churches that teach different things then the church Christ established that was built on the foundation of the prophets and the apostles.I use to be a non denoimation(that was really a baptist church)but I found things wrong
@womanwonder10 As far as the last stament(the different church thing) the words of St paul allways ring to me "And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely.... But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" ...as long as Christ is being preached I rejoice, even in a "incorrect" Christ as I believe the holy spirit will lead the pure of heart even though taught incorrectly.
@gtepp031387 Thank you were your response. I love to learn. I know more about theology--no degree in it, though. lol Church history is somewhat limited. I never got into much, except the disciples and early apostales, and, yes, the reformation. Again, thank you and God bless you, or in my shorthand w/ limited characters adding up, it's then GB! My post usually ends up so tight that I have to take out spaces, abbreviate, etc... so if I can afford 3, I'll put GBY.Take Care, Alexa.
@womanwonder10 ...the followers of Monophistism then morphed and tryed to accept Chalcedon and for a brief moment there was some unity between some of them. Then it was shown that they accepted Christ as having a human will, but that the human will of Christ was swallowed up as a drop of water in the ocean and absorbed by his divine will, this was also rejected by the church, and the split contiunes to this day.
@gtepp031387 That's too bad! All churches today have got to be careful, I think, so that other false teachings, like this, don't slip through and poison the "water". Satan would love that---and that's sickening. Ya know what I mean? GBY and Take Care (or just TC)!
@womanwonder10 No - Nestorianism is a way of articulating a view on the two natures of Christ. Modalism is a Trinitarian issue. Nestorianism says Christ acts either fully in his divine nature or human nature, depending on the need of the moment, thereby dividing the natures. Modalism speaks of One God in three modes as opposed to persons. No individualization between the persons. (I --> Thou concept) Like Nestorianism, Modalism also creates problems when it comes to understanding the atonement.
Wow, so great ignorance of Nestorianism... Ok I will just one question:
Could Jesus have sinned?
1. If not - Then how was he tested(Hebrews 2:18), how or why did Satan tempt him? What about his sinlessness? Was it just fake?
2. If yes - Wasn't he God? Can God sin?
Oh and, what about: "Of that time, noone knows, nor the Son, but Father only" - If he doesn't say this according to human nature, then how is he All-knowing God???
@OtherguyLR sounds like your confusing Monophysitism with Nestorianism, I will conceed the fact the Nestorianism lead to Monophysitism, but they are two seperate heresies....Jesus was both fully GOD and fully man, this was the ruling of Chalcedon. Jesus therfore had all the strengths of GOD and all the weakness of man. He had the weakness of man to sin, but didn't, and the power of GOD to forgive sin and did.
@gtepp031387 I love the way you put that! True + so good! Thank you.jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuussssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@womanwonder10 Yes many believe we worship Mary, yet no matter how many of us Catholics tell them again and again that we do not, they keep saying the same thing...it is frusterating some times....It seems they hate us for things we do not do or believe and that is sad I mean if they are going to hate us at least let it be for what we actually believe.
@gtepp031387 I believe you! And I see all the fighting. It makes me so sad, Christian fighting Christian. The dirty devil is probably laughing. I don't think anyone should make an accusation like that when they do not have any grounds. I wonder if they've ever even once been to a Catholic Church. They get a notion in their heads, sometimes, and then run with it.Anyways, to me, what is key is who does one say Jesus is? And if one answers"Son of the living God, Savior." Exactly right!
Yes and lets also not forget that Nestorian/Assyrians Christians are being slayed out in Iraq...still no converts that I know of...brave Christians who are devoted to Christ...
@ashthebartender1 OK, but all Christians are subject to death, when among jihadists Islamists. Yes, these Christians are very brave, there's no doubt, here. But the "Nestorian/Assyrians part" of it makes no difference to a religious group who consider Christians the Infidels, even call us Christians, them being the jihadist liars that they are, satanists. They hate ALL Christians. And, of course Jews, too. Very sad!
@holypsychopath Nestorian is the one who argued that Mary could only be the mother of Christ stating that the divinity did not dwell inside Mary and only later came to be in Christ. Most prots today, without even knowing it, are Nestorians who reject that Mary is the mother of GOD(mother, not origen, another confusion on the part of prots), which is one of the main points that Nestorian argued against.
@gtepp031387 I am a Missouri Synod (conservative) Lutheran Christian, and I agree. My belief, which is my church's, too, is that Mary is the mother of Christ, not the source. She is the Blessed Virgin who should be highly esteemed, although not worshipped. The Calvinists do not, from what one of them told me, believe she is His mother. I do not understand that-- for that is unBiblical, I believe, to deny that clear fact.
@womanwonder10 I am glad that we agree on some matters, my seperated brethren. May the grace of GOD lead us to a full and complete communion with one another one day.
@gtepp031387 Please,on YT,go to"Calvivist and Lutheran differences--Christology".Type that in,+ also,"by Paloelutheran".I thinkUwillLike it
).Great vid,GOOD Answers! Note one commentorJesusNonEnviromental.
=after many exchanges, he leaves.and tries to stump paleo. Oh, he tries to, but can not do so. Let me know what you think. I had one friend, a Catholic, say they really liked it.
@gtepp031387 The above post is still good, but the last part got screw-up. Sorry.Please check out and tell me what you think. Check out JNE's comments!
Hi, AzuxentiusZ - Thanks for the feedback! This was a parody piece, as was mentioned in the video description and keywords. This was designed to be a "caricature" of a high-level view. That's the reason I put this in the "comedy" category rather than "religion" or "education".
In the video description there is a very clear statement that this is not intended to represent Nestorian belief - it is a parody.
I do appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment though.
Wow, so many things wrong with this video. First, Nestorianism teaches that Christ was a man in whom God dwelled. Second, Nestorianism IS Trinitarian, so the whole premise is nonsense. Third, Nestorianism teaches the humanity of Christ died on the cross, same as any other church accepting the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon. I'm not sure why somebody would go to this trouble without first checking what Nestorians actually believe.
Oh, my bad! Sorry I missed that. I found it looking for a video on Nestorianism for my class and didn't notice the tags. Now I'm all embarrassed . . .
This is not an accurate representation of Nestorianism. Your interactions above are interesting but you still leave your basic error in place. What you have presented is a caricature and is useless for actually teaching anything about Nestorianism. I suggest you start over after reading Nestorius' own words, Chalcedon's statement, modern Nestorian theologians' understanding and modern Western considerations of what Chalcedon was actually arguing against. You'll need a do-over.
Hi, Roy - Thanks for the feedback! This was a parody piece, as was mentioned in the video description and keywords. This was designed to be a "caricature" of a high-level view. That's the reason I put this in the "comedy" category rather than "religion" or "education". I do appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment though.
One thing that Christians seem to NEVER understand is the difference between rhetoric and a logical argument. Too bad you don't learn logic in Bible college and Seminary. Instead of being taught How to think, you are taught What to think. It is a real shame. Besides that your videos are adolescent and condescending. you are not doing your Master any favors.
Please don't see this light-hearted video series as any attempt at engaging in a meaningful discussion or to present teaching on this topic. These are *parodies* that I placed under the comedy category on YouTube. It is impossible to give a fair treatment on such a significant issue in approximately a minute. This is an opportunity for all of us to laugh at ourselves. There was no intention to offend, simply to lampoon, or parody. Thanks for your comment!
I know someone who is VERY passive- aggressive. She says means things all the time, but under the guise of humor. After one of these comments I will say, "Ouch," or "That was mean," or, "That didn't feel good." And she will invariably say, "Oh, I was just kidding." Implying that it was all just a big joke and I shouldn't be so sensitive. Your response to my criticism of your rude and insulting videos reminds me of the passive-aggressive woman. I didn't expect you to get it. She doesn't either.
I could certainly understand your comment *if* I turned around and claimed it to be a parody after being challenged. But that's not the case - this was placed in the comedy category when it was uploaded last year. Did you read the description? If you would like to have a genuine, irenic conversation about this issue, I would be more than happy to do so - Please shoot me a message if that's your desire, and we can either chat online or via email. Thanks, Daniel!
Before I ride off into the sunset, I want to point out that you did not accept my challenge to prove, biblically, logically, your statement, "If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins." Regarding "irenic conversation," I'm not sure what you mean. I have challenged you and I have not been inappropriate. Can you imagine the scholars of old telling Martin Luther they would debate him ONLY if he was irenic?
@DanielForkbeard What fully human person is sinless?? Only One without sin could pay the price 4the sins of the world, so that any who would believe is saved. What about our Christian Creed, e.g., Apostales' Creed,...Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary....Don't you think the EARLY, inspired Christians had the truth that God revealed to them? If you bend on one tenet, how long b4 another one is lost, and again, more + more, until you have nothing of His TRUTH!!
I truly don't believe we are having any kind of conversation or dialogue. I usually experience Christians in this way: they speak and preach, but they don't listen & respond--except with more preaching. Perhaps it is because most Christians sit & listen to a man, every Sunday, preach at them without a chance to stop him and debate or question. You all get used to one-sided monologues. You have not responded to any of my points--directly. You excuse anything you say by calling it humor.
What's that saying about he who protests too much?
And yet you have the gall to whine about ad hominem (below)? Wow. Back away from the screen. Go upstairs. Look outside. It's called the sun. Go out. Enjoy.
You say what you are doing is only meant to be funny, yet you touch on areas that are deadly serious to other people--their beliefs. I think that you betray your real motives by the subject matter of your videos (Theology) and by your subsequent responses to peoples comments. I think it is funny that you insult people by calling them heretics, then want to have "irenic conversation" with me. Can you imagine if Erasmus demanded only irenic debate with Luther? LOL. I am not politically correct.
Daniel - I assume you are both DanielForkbeard & Danielbalter? From your latest posts, I get the impression that you are not a Christian. The issue contained in this video is a "family" dispute, if you will. The phrase "heretic" is in response to the traditional church stance on the Nestorian position. This debate is between Christians with a very different position on the Trinity. If you would like to talk about where you are in faith, I would love to do so. Let me know via PM if you wish.
STILL you have not addressed my point. I wanted you to back up, logically, from the Bible why you said that if Jesus was only a man his sacrifice would be an insufficient sacrifice for atonement. You have refused to do this. Now you don't address my argument but my person (The Ad Hominem Fallacy) by saying that the issue contained in the video is a family dispute and that you perceive me to be not a Christian. I can only conclude that the reason you WON'T answer is because you CAN'T.
BTW, are you aware that so called Nestorians do not hold the view parodied in this video? So, exactly who was offended? Not you. Your experience with Christians indicates that they are a close-minded insult machines. You, on the other hand,are all virtue, logic, reason and enlightenment. You couldn't possibly be a Christian and therefore couldn't possibly be offended by this video. So, exactly who was offended by this video?
Since I posted here a month ago I was very surprised when a post showed up in my email that not only added NOTHING to the debate, but was so full of vitriol, dysfunction and sarcasm. Since about a month ago I learned that I don't make any progress trying to debate or talk to internet trolls. Trolls are people who name call & don't or can't make logical points. You have demonstrated yourself to be a troll. I give all trolls one response--which is always my goodbye. Goodbye.
Just for clarification, Daniel didn't receive any email from me. :) Must have been from one of the other commenters on this thread - all of my communication with Daniel has been in the comment chain to this video.
As I mentioned in my last comment, if Daniel would like to explore with me what I believe and why, I would be more than happy to engage with him via PM or email. I'm sorry you had a negative experience with someone as a result of this conversation!
I know it wasn't you who emailed me; the name was not ShuriRyuKa, but RoyRM1. Regarding EXPLORING with you what you believe: I asked you to logically & Biblically back up your statement, "If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins." You absolutely refused. SINCE you refused, I concluded we were at a dead end.
@danielbalter Is she trying2tell you something she wants2, but cloaks it in humor, so2cushion the blow? Or does she just have a very strange sense of humor? Maybe, something else. Anyway, if you can't figure her out, ask another honest female friend. We women know each other better than men do, because we have our own code (of conduct, understanding, etc..). Other women are good on picking up on stuff like that. Also, ShuriRyuKa said not to take it so serious, right?IPraytheBest4U!
@danielbalter I think the majority of seminaries teach their interpretations in the greek,aramaic and, I think others. I don't remember which all of the pertaining langages, for lack of a better way to put it; but know they do. They try to scrutinize it, study, use context, etc...God's ways are not our ways, therefore, logic and reasoning have their place, but the Word should be the final authority. Shouldn't it?
i am nesteronian and this video you have provided shows your lack of intelligence of our faith. Christ has two natures like we have two natures one human one divine mary gave birth to the man jesus the holy spirit gave birth to jesus the son of GOD. now i know youll be quting from john 1.1 saying well it says the word was GOD but in the original language of the new testament aramiac this is symbolic only.
You have three there so there was a trinity. Then you ask; who died on the cross, God or man? God cannot and did not die! The man died. God cannot be shown in your video like he was a man except in the person of Jesus all you will ever see of the invisible spirit of God. Trinitarians are ridiculous and so are Nestorians.come to trinity_vs_Oneness@yahoogroups
If the man died on the cross, the atonement is insufficient. The death of a man on the cross would not atone for the sins of the world - this was a divine sacrifice made by the second person of the trinity. A trinitarian understanding of the atonement is essential in our understanding of soteriology.
It was not just "a man" as that would be "insufficient"! But the Only begotten(Born) *sinless* son of God died for the sins of mankind. God cannot and did not die there is no such thing as "God the son." if there were and he died he could not be God. Your theology is too mixed up. why don't you take this over to my debate group where you have recently joined and let's discuss this?
You said that if a man died on the cross, the atonement is insufficient. I know that you have been spoon fed that slogan, for years, over many pulpits, but can you back up your statement? In other words PROVE YOUR POINT FROM THE BIBLE! Can you? I challenge you to make a logical argument from the Bible demonstrating why what you said is true. The death of a man on the cross would not atone for the sins of the world because....?
If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins. That was the quality of the necessary sacrifice. If it was the divine person, then it wasn't a substitute. The atonement and the incarnation work hand-in-hand when we think soteriologically. Scripture teaches that the Word *became* flesh (John 1:14) the Greek word γίνομαι means "to become" - there is no separation of the 2 natures. Thanks for your comment!
All you did was repeat yourself. Prove Biblically that it is insufficient. Just repeating yourself doesn't make your argument any stronger. It is insufficient because....? You say "that was the quality of the necessary sacrifice." What causes you to believe this? What is your Biblical proof? Quote Scripture and make a logical argument!
what i believe is in two natures not two persons this video shown here is not the correct belief of the nestorian faith. people in the west are too literal minded to understand scripture properly.
I believe two natures also and so do the trinitarians but it does not excuse any of us from more important question than trying to offer two natures as an answer for a nature does not die a person dies. I will contact you where to go to debate your cause I hope you are willing as oct31st is a coward
@mlculwell Oneness belief is a false, uninspired doctrine. I take it you do not hold to the Nicene or Apostles' Creed? May I ask, are you a pentecostal, a JW, or a Morman, or what--if you don't mind?
You probably love the Trinitarian logo also. I think it's fits exactly what you teach-- doctrines of devils. You're logo is a common Satanic symbol, and it is also a 666 symbol. We ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone... (Acts 17:29).
You already "changed the record" when you refuse to believe the record that God gave of his Son: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11. King James. The life is in his Son, not two other persons.
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So what's the idea of this video? I don't get it... Christ said on the cross: "God, why have you forsaken me?" - it's a man Jesus Christ that died, not the Son of God which was in him(as it's written in 2 Cor 5:19 - "God was in Christ"). Check Hebrew 2:9 variant: "Christ, apart from God tasted death." Even Christ(at this time Son of God) says in John 2:19 - "Destroy the temple(Christ) and I will raise it." Scriptures are clear in Acts 2:31-33 - that God raised Christ, not Christ himself.
Otherguylb 4 days ago
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Otherguylb 4 days ago
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Otherguylb 4 days ago
@gtepp031387 I did not forget about you and still would like to have non-confrontational talks. I never wanted to be a fighter in the first place, so don't think that about me. I know you get flack from others. I think some of them need to come down from their high-horse. Just been extremely busy. We will talk again when we both have time. Take care and God be with you!!
womanwonder10 3 weeks ago
@womanwonder10 GOD bless you as well! I took a little break myself I was getting to frusterated and thus getting away from my focus on Christ.
I would like very much to discuss, from what I understand you are a Lutheran right? Our churches have had some very good talks of late and I hope to see once again full and complete union, I think the main problem between our two respected church is the authority of the sucessore of Peter...though I am not sure what your take is?
gtepp031387 2 weeks ago
@gtepp031387 Well, we have some things in common. I think the differences, mainly, are justification by faith, prayer only to God( Father, Son, and, yes, Holy Spirit), our Holy Communion/Eucharist views are somewhat different, and we don't believe in purgatory..it hasn't changed from Luther's day. And no one likes us--the other protestants disagree, and the Catholics,too, disagree with us.So we are on our own. But I am solid in my faith as I see your are in yours.But we see you as Christians2.
womanwonder10 1 week ago
@gtepp031387 I see what you guys go through on that one page(I will not repeat it's name on here).I am solid in my Lutheranism(check out/type in- Revfiskj -he's on Youtube).But you will not,despite our theological differences,see me calling Catholics names.I hate that!! It gets me upset how some are so self-righteous.Pharisee-like condemnation!Disgusting! As a Lutheran,I know it's wrong2bash a fellow believer in Christ's mercy.I have said things2 pompous,sanctimonious ppl,but I TRY2B kind2All.
womanwonder10 1 week ago
@gtepp031387 Iwas running out of space and I pared-down all I could on characters! Anyway, I was trying to say that if you really want2know what I believe(I don't know all of what you believe,either--but I got a crash-course by listening/reading the Catholics defending their faith against that Calvinist&that Jehovah's Witness on that pg.)We have places of agreement.Checkout that pastor(he's kinda wired--caffeine?),he is very kind+humble like a Christian should be+as you all were on that page.pax
womanwonder10 1 week ago
@womanwonder10 If it wasn't clear we believe that salvation is all by grace...and we recieve "grace for grace"(but only by the grace that was first recieved)....if this is followed we reach "salvation by sanctification"...We also would say that if one believed and then died immediatly he would have died in a state of grace, and would be saved once pruified by the fire that shall test each persons works. While one might suffer lost he shall still be saved, but only through fire.
gtepp031387 1 week ago
@womanwonder10 I can see you are very kind hearted from your comments and not over judgmental, I thank you for that.
I would like to discuss the issue of justification by faith...the Catholic church teaches that faith initially justifies(mainly becaues it is the first work of the grace of GOD) but that faith without the support of continuing grace that gave the faith withers and dies. As it is written "faith without works is dead"
gtepp031387 1 week ago
@womanwonder10...we believe that Grace gives faith, but that grace does not stop there.We believe that the grace of GOD will move one to the works of mercy and following all of GODs commands. We also believe that humans have a free will to choose to reject the grace of GOD, the grace may push and strengthen one greatly( and that nothing good can be dun without it) but it may not do so in a way that completely removes our free will.
gtepp031387 1 week ago
@womanwonder10 Thus we believe that if the grace that gave the faith is rejected, the grace that sustained and stregthen the faith will be lost and the faith will wither and die...thus we "see how a person is justifed by works(of GODs grace) and not by faith alone(which is but one work of GODs grace"...well I think that is a start on how we believe if you have anything to say about this of wish to disagree or respond I would really love to discuss it.
gtepp031387 1 week ago
@mlculwell I don't know much about Mormons and I never looked into it.I am Lutheran (Miss. Synod)& I feel+KNOW I AM where God WANTS me2be.I believe in JESUS as my Savior and I want 2live4 Him+That's where I'm staying.I try not 2get involved in the battles that include name-calling°rading others.But when + if someone says something about my faith/Creed,then I will respond.So 4you to say NON-oneness Pentecostals are onthe same level as Mormanism,that's a lie! One God In3Persons=Christianity101.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@mlculwell Not correct. Have you ever heard the Mormons sing "Holy,Holy,Holy, Lord God Almighty............", the song? They are more of a Pentecostal flavor, I think. For they do NOT say God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity. They will not say Trinity, instead, something, something deity! You can hear it for yourself, please look for it (on YouTube) under 'The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings Holy Holy Holy'. I think the early Christians knew best---and wanted to hold fast and hard to the Truth!GB
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 They deny the trinity but they believe In multiple gods of multiple worlds.
mlculwell 1 month ago
Woman wonder,Yes the Nicean creed is on the same level as the Book of Mormon. Direct me to the scriptures where Jesus tells us to follow the Nicean Creed as truth? I am a Oneness Pentecostal and Believe Jesus is the One true God and Him only shall I serve.
mlculwell 1 month ago
@mlculwell My response to that would be, "Show me something in the book of Mormon that is not attested to in Scripture." And you would show me many things. I would then say, "Show me something in the Nicene creed, or apostles creed, or Athanasian creed that is not attested to in Scripture." And you could show me nothing. Are the creeds inspired? No! But they are beautiful statements of what Scripture does say.
ShuriRyuKa 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa The Creeds are on the same level as the Book of Mormon there is nothing you can say otherwise in defense of either of them! I am a Oneness Pentecostal also!
I have a question No trin. has been able to answer and it totally refutes trinity doctrine as False and establishes the Oneness of God as truth.
Why are you able to blasphem the Holy Ghost and not the son of God?(Matth.12:31-32) The answer is because you falsely invert son of God into God the son.
mlculwell 1 month ago
@mlculwell What is present in the creeds that is not attested to in Scripture? Regarding Matthew 12:31-32 - It is strange you would use that verse, when that verse clearly illustrates the persons of the Trinity. I would use that passage to refute the Oneness position! Under your position, to blaspheme the one would be to blaspheme the other since they are one and the same. I will address why it is differentiated in the next comment.
ShuriRyuKa 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa To blaspheme Jesus would be to reject his claims to be God. Paul did this prior to his conversion on the Damascus road. To blaspheme the Spirit means to reject His testimony regarding the gospel (think Heb 6:4-8). Had Paul rejected the Damascus experience, he would be blaspheming the Spirit. (I affirm that would not have been possible, but that's another debate.) Paul was regenerated, therefore his prior rejection of the claims of Jesus was forgiven. This illustrates Mt. 12:31-32.
ShuriRyuKa 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa Sir, I did not ask you to tell m what the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is. Never the Less I get this every single time I ask a trinitarain the question. I suppose it is The question leaves trinity folk speechless and they have no answer. trins have no answer because they believe Jesus is God the son, a third of three. I believe Jesus is the Mighty God But he is also a real man and that is why you cannot blaspheme the son of God.(Matth 12:31-32) This establishes Oneness.
mlculwell 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa That is exactly how I see it. And you have said it so well! Thanks for all of your answers. They ring quite true to me, as you do seem to be Bible-based. True? Do you have other vids that explain other things, like this type? Take care!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa No we make a distinction that you do not make nor do you see.. it refutes your doctrine of the trinity... Please make sure you give this some thought before you answer again.
The son of God is a real man and not God the son. That is why you would not be able to blaspheme the son of God and be able to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.
One real man, and one real God Both in Jesus do not two persons of God make.
mlculwell 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa Totally true, I believe you nailed it down pretty well!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa The compliment (directly above here) is in reply to your statement that begins -- "To blaspheme Jesus would be to reject His claims to be God." Also, I have learned some very historic, and, hence, interesting information here -- good stuff!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@mlculwell I am also Oneness pentecostal.
mlculwell 1 month ago
@mlculwell As I said, the early Christians, the devout followers, knew best. I know some good, loving Pentecostals, but, still, I think that is wrong.The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. It is total rejection of the Savior,Jesus Christ. BTW,If that worries anyone,chances are excellent that they did not commit it.If you did, you would not care even one tiny iota (So don't give up and do yourself in, thinking you are hopeless, people. Satan lies+wants everyone to give up!)GBY
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa I do believe everything you've said here. I have believed this central truth as far back as I can remember. And I believe this was/is the work of the Holy Spirit. Thanks be to God, through Christ. What faiths (with-in Christianity) are Nestorians? Isn't non-denom one of them? Thank you.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 Non-denominational Christianity runs a gambit of theological positions, but this would not (typically) be one of them. Nestorianism largely died out in the 7th and 8th centuries, although there are some Nestorian churches in Africa and the middle-east. Typically where it appears these days is through the well-intentioned teaching of those who have not studied church history, or the theological implications of their Christology.
ShuriRyuKa 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa Thanks for your answer.I appreciate it! Q4U==Is a heresy a deal-breaker w/God? I've never been called one, until here on YouTube! As much as I communicate w/other Christians,of every denomination--Prots and Caths, for many yrs. w/many people, it has never yet been a term directed 2me.Then YT changed that.I take my Christian faith very seriously.I love people. I do/will not judge/condemn others,but share our thoughts(or 4 me, my faith).Do you2 see judging+namecalling?-Alexa.GBY.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa What died? Nestorians, after being banished from Roman Empire, started going to Asia and in rougly 200 years large portion of Chinese and Mongolians were Nestorian Christians...
Otherguylb 4 days ago
@womanwonder10 "What faiths (with-in Christianity) are Nestorians?"
A Nestorian is anyone who rejects that Mary carried both the divinity and humanity inside her and gave birth to both in one flesh.
Nestorianism lead to Monophysitism, which became arguably the greatest heresy in the church, and it still contiunes today it followers are the Oriental Orthodox Church, who reject the ruling of the council of Chalcedon that Christ had both a human and divine will....
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 As a Missouri Synod Lutheran (always have to put that in there because of the few, but very vital differences w/the ELCA), I believe Jesus is the Son of God, who came in the flesh, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.As I'm sure you know, All of this in found in the old creeds written w/diligent faith and hearts filled with the Holy Spirit,by the early Christians.I believe that this denial involving Mary, began with the fear of Mary-worship.Cont...
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Many people believe Catholics worship Mary. Many Cath.s have said that is not true.Personally,I don't understand why she should not be esteemed as the birth mother of Our Savior,though not 2be worshipped. I take them(Cath) at their word at this point. But many are reacting out of fear, but that concern is only valid if such were true.On Christology, I believe,Cath.& most MainlineProtestant churches including mine(we prefer Evangelical to Prot.) ARE in agreement,+We'reRight! GB
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 One of the dogmas of the Catholic church is "worship is for GOD alone"...since this is church dogma if someone does not believe this statement he/she is not Catholic. ...Mary is the greatest of all creatures and is due remeberance, honor, respect(veneration), and even glory(as long as one understands she recieves the glory given to the son as part of the body of Christ John 17:22), but she is still a creauture of GOD and must not be worshipped.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 OK, I'll have to take your word for it, since I really never had a sure answer b4 for that. I guess, maybe it's a "semantical" thing with some others. Anyway, I do believe in esteeming her, that is to appreciate, admire, and to show regard to Mary. Some people probably would have a problem w/ that2. Oh well. If I do not feel convicted in my heart by God,and it doesn't contradict the Bible, then it's fine. And I do agree with you, that "worship is for God only".GBY:-)
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 But *many are reacting out of fear... The "many" I was talking about was not the Catholics, but some protestants that believe Catholics worship Mary. I have a few relatives that are Catholic--but we never get to those issues. I don't see them often(as they live fairly far away). They don't talk about their faith alot, but maybe 'cause I'm Lutheran. Though it'd be fine w/ me. But they're older, so it's respectful to leave that up 2them2decide, whether they want to.GB
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 I sent you an e-mail, but I didn't put your name at the start. Sorry, but you'll see it when/if you find where this one is, on the comments page. It should be right above where this one is (on the page). It's just a clearer explaination of what I wrote to you the day before. Take Care + God's blessing to you!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 I love discussing as long as it keeps in a loving manner, and would be open and hopeing to resolve the sad divisions that seperate us if you where ever wanting to discuss such things.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Count me in!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 so what are some topics you would be intresting in discussing between us?...If you feel up to it, I do not want another argument where all there is is hate and attack, I have had WAY to many of those on You tube and I think I will have to leave this place for good If I engage in another....GBY to.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 God bless you. I can tell you are such a sweet person! I'm kind of a vagabond. I visit whatever interests me. I went on the "Why I'm not a Catholic anymore" thing, maybe a couple weeks ago, and I made a few friends on there that are Catholic. I thought the prot.s were rude!Esp. this one>ff2222,gt1314. Aaargh. I thought we were going to have a chic slam-down!She was ridiculously cruel-mouthed.And then this JNE. Though I did agree with a good share,I have problem with....
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Cont../ problems with his Calvinistic views.At first he really peed me off 'cause he seems "too in your face", but then he started sounding abit humble and I chilled.But, I thought, what I heard from the Cath.s was all pretty faithful to our Savior.But I figured I am gonna let the 2sides work it out--and they will.The prot.s there thought I was a Cath. because I was friendly with them.I donot want2 fight w/anyone.On that site--You'd think we're in N.Ireland!go to next
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Anyway,I don't want to argue& I won't trash anyone.I'm not Cath.+I'm notCalvinist,either.Why can't we all justgo2our own churches and praise+thank Christ Jesus 4His death on the cross,+Life eternal w.Him,then we know we are of the Body of Christ.He shed His blood4us!And there are SO many ppl who donot knowthis,yet.Videos should focus on that.Don't let any1 hurtU.If Ucan say like Peter said"Thou art Christ, the Son of The Living God!",then Jesus saves U!Love2U! Alexa
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Oh, I forgot, Would ya keep in touch with me, OK? I would like that!! God be with you! May His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May He give you His peace that passes all human understanding, In Jesus name. God truly bless you!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 Yes I have been to that Page "Why I'm not Catholic..."....It is a very sad page, and have found myself very frusterated with it, I try to stay away from it.
As far as why we can't go to any church, well I truley wish we could.... but there are churches that teach different things then the church Christ established that was built on the foundation of the prophets and the apostles.I use to be a non denoimation(that was really a baptist church)but I found things wrong
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 As far as the last stament(the different church thing) the words of St paul allways ring to me "And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely.... But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" ...as long as Christ is being preached I rejoice, even in a "incorrect" Christ as I believe the holy spirit will lead the pure of heart even though taught incorrectly.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Thank you were your response. I love to learn. I know more about theology--no degree in it, though. lol Church history is somewhat limited. I never got into much, except the disciples and early apostales, and, yes, the reformation. Again, thank you and God bless you, or in my shorthand w/ limited characters adding up, it's then GB! My post usually ends up so tight that I have to take out spaces, abbreviate, etc... so if I can afford 3, I'll put GBY.Take Care, Alexa.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 There is much early church material avalible and I could refference you some if you would like....a great cite is "churchfathers"
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Sounds interesting. Want to know the history. I'll have to check it out! Thanks alot and take care!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Thanks! Well, I know I am NOT a nestorian!! This is about the second or third time I've ever heard of the term or word.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 ...the followers of Monophistism then morphed and tryed to accept Chalcedon and for a brief moment there was some unity between some of them. Then it was shown that they accepted Christ as having a human will, but that the human will of Christ was swallowed up as a drop of water in the ocean and absorbed by his divine will, this was also rejected by the church, and the split contiunes to this day.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 That's too bad! All churches today have got to be careful, I think, so that other false teachings, like this, don't slip through and poison the "water". Satan would love that---and that's sickening. Ya know what I mean? GBY and Take Care (or just TC)!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@ShuriRyuKa Can you tell me, is this the same thing as modalism? Thank you!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 No - Nestorianism is a way of articulating a view on the two natures of Christ. Modalism is a Trinitarian issue. Nestorianism says Christ acts either fully in his divine nature or human nature, depending on the need of the moment, thereby dividing the natures. Modalism speaks of One God in three modes as opposed to persons. No individualization between the persons. (I --> Thou concept) Like Nestorianism, Modalism also creates problems when it comes to understanding the atonement.
ShuriRyuKa 1 month ago
Wow, so great ignorance of Nestorianism... Ok I will just one question:
Could Jesus have sinned?
1. If not - Then how was he tested(Hebrews 2:18), how or why did Satan tempt him? What about his sinlessness? Was it just fake?
2. If yes - Wasn't he God? Can God sin?
Oh and, what about: "Of that time, noone knows, nor the Son, but Father only" - If he doesn't say this according to human nature, then how is he All-knowing God???
OtherguyLR 1 year ago
@OtherguyLR sounds like your confusing Monophysitism with Nestorianism, I will conceed the fact the Nestorianism lead to Monophysitism, but they are two seperate heresies....Jesus was both fully GOD and fully man, this was the ruling of Chalcedon. Jesus therfore had all the strengths of GOD and all the weakness of man. He had the weakness of man to sin, but didn't, and the power of GOD to forgive sin and did.
gtepp031387 2 months ago
@gtepp031387 I love the way you put that! True + so good! Thank you.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
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@gtepp031387 I love the way you put that! True + so good! Thank you.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 I love the way you put that! True + so good! Thank you.jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuussssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 Yes many believe we worship Mary, yet no matter how many of us Catholics tell them again and again that we do not, they keep saying the same thing...it is frusterating some times....It seems they hate us for things we do not do or believe and that is sad I mean if they are going to hate us at least let it be for what we actually believe.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 I believe you! And I see all the fighting. It makes me so sad, Christian fighting Christian. The dirty devil is probably laughing. I don't think anyone should make an accusation like that when they do not have any grounds. I wonder if they've ever even once been to a Catholic Church. They get a notion in their heads, sometimes, and then run with it.Anyways, to me, what is key is who does one say Jesus is? And if one answers"Son of the living God, Savior." Exactly right!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
You asked the question in your video . . . who died on the cross God or man? Tell me the answer . . . as you see it.
enotstehw 1 year ago
So let me get this straight . . . your God can be killed?
enotstehw 1 year ago
@enotstehw From the way you asked that question, I suspect you know the answer but misunderstand or reject the implications. :)
ShuriRyuKa 1 year ago
Yes and lets also not forget that Nestorian/Assyrians Christians are being slayed out in Iraq...still no converts that I know of...brave Christians who are devoted to Christ...
ashthebartender1 1 year ago
@ashthebartender1 OK, but all Christians are subject to death, when among jihadists Islamists. Yes, these Christians are very brave, there's no doubt, here. But the "Nestorian/Assyrians part" of it makes no difference to a religious group who consider Christians the Infidels, even call us Christians, them being the jihadist liars that they are, satanists. They hate ALL Christians. And, of course Jews, too. Very sad!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
Nestorianism was the foundation of Islam.
daltonagre 1 year ago
nestor only differed on the holy spirit being a person. nestor accepted the niecian council
holypsychopath 1 year ago
@holypsychopath Nestorian is the one who argued that Mary could only be the mother of Christ stating that the divinity did not dwell inside Mary and only later came to be in Christ. Most prots today, without even knowing it, are Nestorians who reject that Mary is the mother of GOD(mother, not origen, another confusion on the part of prots), which is one of the main points that Nestorian argued against.
gtepp031387 2 months ago
@gtepp031387 I am a Missouri Synod (conservative) Lutheran Christian, and I agree. My belief, which is my church's, too, is that Mary is the mother of Christ, not the source. She is the Blessed Virgin who should be highly esteemed, although not worshipped. The Calvinists do not, from what one of them told me, believe she is His mother. I do not understand that-- for that is unBiblical, I believe, to deny that clear fact.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 I am glad that we agree on some matters, my seperated brethren. May the grace of GOD lead us to a full and complete communion with one another one day.
gtepp031387 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 Please,on YT,go to"Calvivist and Lutheran differences--Christology".Type that in,+ also,"by Paloelutheran".I thinkUwillLike it
).Great vid,GOOD Answers! Note one commentorJesusNonEnviromental.
=after many exchanges, he leaves.and tries to stump paleo. Oh, he tries to, but can not do so. Let me know what you think. I had one friend, a Catholic, say they really liked it.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@gtepp031387 The above post is still good, but the last part got screw-up. Sorry.Please check out and tell me what you think. Check out JNE's comments!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
Hi, AzuxentiusZ - Thanks for the feedback! This was a parody piece, as was mentioned in the video description and keywords. This was designed to be a "caricature" of a high-level view. That's the reason I put this in the "comedy" category rather than "religion" or "education".
In the video description there is a very clear statement that this is not intended to represent Nestorian belief - it is a parody.
I do appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment though.
God bless!
ShuriRyuKa 2 years ago
Wow, so many things wrong with this video. First, Nestorianism teaches that Christ was a man in whom God dwelled. Second, Nestorianism IS Trinitarian, so the whole premise is nonsense. Third, Nestorianism teaches the humanity of Christ died on the cross, same as any other church accepting the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon. I'm not sure why somebody would go to this trouble without first checking what Nestorians actually believe.
AuxentiusZ 2 years ago 4
Oh, my bad! Sorry I missed that. I found it looking for a video on Nestorianism for my class and didn't notice the tags. Now I'm all embarrassed . . .
RoyRM1 2 years ago
This is not an accurate representation of Nestorianism. Your interactions above are interesting but you still leave your basic error in place. What you have presented is a caricature and is useless for actually teaching anything about Nestorianism. I suggest you start over after reading Nestorius' own words, Chalcedon's statement, modern Nestorian theologians' understanding and modern Western considerations of what Chalcedon was actually arguing against. You'll need a do-over.
RoyRM1 3 years ago
Hi, Roy - Thanks for the feedback! This was a parody piece, as was mentioned in the video description and keywords. This was designed to be a "caricature" of a high-level view. That's the reason I put this in the "comedy" category rather than "religion" or "education". I do appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment though.
God bless!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
One thing that Christians seem to NEVER understand is the difference between rhetoric and a logical argument. Too bad you don't learn logic in Bible college and Seminary. Instead of being taught How to think, you are taught What to think. It is a real shame. Besides that your videos are adolescent and condescending. you are not doing your Master any favors.
danielbalter 3 years ago
Please don't see this light-hearted video series as any attempt at engaging in a meaningful discussion or to present teaching on this topic. These are *parodies* that I placed under the comedy category on YouTube. It is impossible to give a fair treatment on such a significant issue in approximately a minute. This is an opportunity for all of us to laugh at ourselves. There was no intention to offend, simply to lampoon, or parody. Thanks for your comment!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
I know someone who is VERY passive- aggressive. She says means things all the time, but under the guise of humor. After one of these comments I will say, "Ouch," or "That was mean," or, "That didn't feel good." And she will invariably say, "Oh, I was just kidding." Implying that it was all just a big joke and I shouldn't be so sensitive. Your response to my criticism of your rude and insulting videos reminds me of the passive-aggressive woman. I didn't expect you to get it. She doesn't either.
danielbalter 3 years ago
I could certainly understand your comment *if* I turned around and claimed it to be a parody after being challenged. But that's not the case - this was placed in the comedy category when it was uploaded last year. Did you read the description? If you would like to have a genuine, irenic conversation about this issue, I would be more than happy to do so - Please shoot me a message if that's your desire, and we can either chat online or via email. Thanks, Daniel!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
Before I ride off into the sunset, I want to point out that you did not accept my challenge to prove, biblically, logically, your statement, "If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins." Regarding "irenic conversation," I'm not sure what you mean. I have challenged you and I have not been inappropriate. Can you imagine the scholars of old telling Martin Luther they would debate him ONLY if he was irenic?
DanielForkbeard 3 years ago
@DanielForkbeard What fully human person is sinless?? Only One without sin could pay the price 4the sins of the world, so that any who would believe is saved. What about our Christian Creed, e.g., Apostales' Creed,...Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary....Don't you think the EARLY, inspired Christians had the truth that God revealed to them? If you bend on one tenet, how long b4 another one is lost, and again, more + more, until you have nothing of His TRUTH!!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
I truly don't believe we are having any kind of conversation or dialogue. I usually experience Christians in this way: they speak and preach, but they don't listen & respond--except with more preaching. Perhaps it is because most Christians sit & listen to a man, every Sunday, preach at them without a chance to stop him and debate or question. You all get used to one-sided monologues. You have not responded to any of my points--directly. You excuse anything you say by calling it humor.
danielbalter 3 years ago
What's that saying about he who protests too much?
And yet you have the gall to whine about ad hominem (below)? Wow. Back away from the screen. Go upstairs. Look outside. It's called the sun. Go out. Enjoy.
RoyRM1 2 years ago
You say what you are doing is only meant to be funny, yet you touch on areas that are deadly serious to other people--their beliefs. I think that you betray your real motives by the subject matter of your videos (Theology) and by your subsequent responses to peoples comments. I think it is funny that you insult people by calling them heretics, then want to have "irenic conversation" with me. Can you imagine if Erasmus demanded only irenic debate with Luther? LOL. I am not politically correct.
danielbalter 3 years ago
Daniel - I assume you are both DanielForkbeard & Danielbalter? From your latest posts, I get the impression that you are not a Christian. The issue contained in this video is a "family" dispute, if you will. The phrase "heretic" is in response to the traditional church stance on the Nestorian position. This debate is between Christians with a very different position on the Trinity. If you would like to talk about where you are in faith, I would love to do so. Let me know via PM if you wish.
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
STILL you have not addressed my point. I wanted you to back up, logically, from the Bible why you said that if Jesus was only a man his sacrifice would be an insufficient sacrifice for atonement. You have refused to do this. Now you don't address my argument but my person (The Ad Hominem Fallacy) by saying that the issue contained in the video is a family dispute and that you perceive me to be not a Christian. I can only conclude that the reason you WON'T answer is because you CAN'T.
DanielForkbeard 3 years ago
BTW, are you aware that so called Nestorians do not hold the view parodied in this video? So, exactly who was offended? Not you. Your experience with Christians indicates that they are a close-minded insult machines. You, on the other hand,are all virtue, logic, reason and enlightenment. You couldn't possibly be a Christian and therefore couldn't possibly be offended by this video. So, exactly who was offended by this video?
RoyRM1 2 years ago
Since I posted here a month ago I was very surprised when a post showed up in my email that not only added NOTHING to the debate, but was so full of vitriol, dysfunction and sarcasm. Since about a month ago I learned that I don't make any progress trying to debate or talk to internet trolls. Trolls are people who name call & don't or can't make logical points. You have demonstrated yourself to be a troll. I give all trolls one response--which is always my goodbye. Goodbye.
DanielForkbeard 2 years ago
Just for clarification, Daniel didn't receive any email from me. :) Must have been from one of the other commenters on this thread - all of my communication with Daniel has been in the comment chain to this video.
As I mentioned in my last comment, if Daniel would like to explore with me what I believe and why, I would be more than happy to engage with him via PM or email. I'm sorry you had a negative experience with someone as a result of this conversation!
ShuriRyuKa 2 years ago
I know it wasn't you who emailed me; the name was not ShuriRyuKa, but RoyRM1. Regarding EXPLORING with you what you believe: I asked you to logically & Biblically back up your statement, "If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins." You absolutely refused. SINCE you refused, I concluded we were at a dead end.
DanielForkbeard 2 years ago
@danielbalter Is she trying2tell you something she wants2, but cloaks it in humor, so2cushion the blow? Or does she just have a very strange sense of humor? Maybe, something else. Anyway, if you can't figure her out, ask another honest female friend. We women know each other better than men do, because we have our own code (of conduct, understanding, etc..). Other women are good on picking up on stuff like that. Also, ShuriRyuKa said not to take it so serious, right?IPraytheBest4U!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@danielbalter I think the majority of seminaries teach their interpretations in the greek,aramaic and, I think others. I don't remember which all of the pertaining langages, for lack of a better way to put it; but know they do. They try to scrutinize it, study, use context, etc...God's ways are not our ways, therefore, logic and reasoning have their place, but the Word should be the final authority. Shouldn't it?
womanwonder10 1 month ago
Haha, awesome.
chases34 3 years ago
i am nesteronian and this video you have provided shows your lack of intelligence of our faith. Christ has two natures like we have two natures one human one divine mary gave birth to the man jesus the holy spirit gave birth to jesus the son of GOD. now i know youll be quting from john 1.1 saying well it says the word was GOD but in the original language of the new testament aramiac this is symbolic only.
doctorw2 3 years ago 2
You have three there so there was a trinity. Then you ask; who died on the cross, God or man? God cannot and did not die! The man died. God cannot be shown in your video like he was a man except in the person of Jesus all you will ever see of the invisible spirit of God. Trinitarians are ridiculous and so are Nestorians.come to trinity_vs_Oneness@yahoogroups
mlculwell 3 years ago
If the man died on the cross, the atonement is insufficient. The death of a man on the cross would not atone for the sins of the world - this was a divine sacrifice made by the second person of the trinity. A trinitarian understanding of the atonement is essential in our understanding of soteriology.
Thanks for your comment!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
It was not just "a man" as that would be "insufficient"! But the Only begotten(Born) *sinless* son of God died for the sins of mankind. God cannot and did not die there is no such thing as "God the son." if there were and he died he could not be God. Your theology is too mixed up. why don't you take this over to my debate group where you have recently joined and let's discuss this?
mlculwell 3 years ago
You said that if a man died on the cross, the atonement is insufficient. I know that you have been spoon fed that slogan, for years, over many pulpits, but can you back up your statement? In other words PROVE YOUR POINT FROM THE BIBLE! Can you? I challenge you to make a logical argument from the Bible demonstrating why what you said is true. The death of a man on the cross would not atone for the sins of the world because....?
danielbalter 3 years ago
If it was the human person then the atonement is not of divine standard and thereby insufficient to serve as atonement for our sins. That was the quality of the necessary sacrifice. If it was the divine person, then it wasn't a substitute. The atonement and the incarnation work hand-in-hand when we think soteriologically. Scripture teaches that the Word *became* flesh (John 1:14) the Greek word γίνομαι means "to become" - there is no separation of the 2 natures. Thanks for your comment!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
All you did was repeat yourself. Prove Biblically that it is insufficient. Just repeating yourself doesn't make your argument any stronger. It is insufficient because....? You say "that was the quality of the necessary sacrifice." What causes you to believe this? What is your Biblical proof? Quote Scripture and make a logical argument!
danielbalter 3 years ago
@ShuriRyuKa Right on! Exactly. Well said!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
what i believe is in two natures not two persons this video shown here is not the correct belief of the nestorian faith. people in the west are too literal minded to understand scripture properly.
doctorw2 3 years ago
I believe two natures also and so do the trinitarians but it does not excuse any of us from more important question than trying to offer two natures as an answer for a nature does not die a person dies. I will contact you where to go to debate your cause I hope you are willing as oct31st is a coward
mlculwell 3 years ago
@mlculwell Again,the pentecostals,&others,are teacing a false gospel."God in 3persons, Blessed Trinity"!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@mlculwell Again,the pentecostals,&others,are teacing a false gospel."God in 3persons, Blessed Trinity"!
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@mlculwell Oneness belief is a false, uninspired doctrine. I take it you do not hold to the Nicene or Apostles' Creed? May I ask, are you a pentecostal, a JW, or a Morman, or what--if you don't mind?
womanwonder10 1 month ago
Oh please. As if the Trinity is any more sane. Both Doctrines are the result of Paganism.
IHS7 3 years ago
@IHS7 You're crazy.
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@womanwonder10 with relish.
IHS7 1 month ago
HAHA "THIS DOCTRINE IS PRECIOUS"...he is that funny little alien from LORD of the rings
eyeztothesky 3 years ago 2
AMEN!!!!! LOL
charliejunfan1 3 years ago
This is some cool theological content
YoungCalvinist08 3 years ago 2
Thanks! It's hard to do any serious packing of information into such a tight time, and still keep a sense of humor. I had fun doing it!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
You probably love the Trinitarian logo also. I think it's fits exactly what you teach-- doctrines of devils. You're logo is a common Satanic symbol, and it is also a 666 symbol. We ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone... (Acts 17:29).
KingJamesVideoMan 3 years ago
Change the record already
YoungCalvinist08 3 years ago
You already "changed the record" when you refuse to believe the record that God gave of his Son: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11. King James. The life is in his Son, not two other persons.
KingJamesVideoMan 3 years ago
You must really, like we say in London, "have it in" for trinitarians. Who said we don't believe 1 John 5:11? And the misrepresenting continues?
YoungCalvinist08 3 years ago 3
Hi, Steve - I sent you a private message via YouTube.
Thanks for watching my video, and I look forward to hearing back from you!
ShuriRyuKa 3 years ago
@KingJamesVideoMan Are you saying the belief in the Trinity is Satanic?If so,of what cult areU a member?
womanwonder10 1 month ago
@KingJamesVideoMan What are you talking about? 666 has nothing to do w/believing in the Trinity. Are you smokin' crack?
womanwonder10 1 month ago
I LOVE IT!!!!!
Oct31st1517 3 years ago 3