That poor air steward. The simple truth is if she wasn't white they wouldn't have said anything. The UK companies are so scared of being seen as racist that non-whites can be whatever religion they like, but white people....must on no level be seen to have an opinion that could "offend" non - white people. That is why Muslims can wear whatever head gear they want, and Indians can have the a red spot etc, but if a white person wears a NECKLACE that is of the Christian faith it is forbidden.
.. and even many times more so, the same goes for Islam.
Anti-human-rights beliefs should never be respected .. nor viewed as deserving of any sympathy as being marginalised when itself is the very representation of the term "unjust marginalisation against differential believers" .
I think the host of this documentary fails to examine why the rights to believe in Christian beliefs are in so many ways in conflict with so many other basic human rights .. is this not an indication to any perceptive viewers that Christianity or the literal biblical teachings of christianity are anti basic human rights .. is that not a problem with christianity itself rather than with modern evolved human civilisation ?
Christians being discriminated against by others ?... Hmmm I gusse theres some truth to the saying that what goes around comes around..... Their turn in the barrel eh.....
The problem with this show is that the guy is not confronting any of the people speaking here - except that he confronted the woman from the civil rights organization, and even then, he didn't really drill her. This is a very lazy type of show.
@ 6:19 Roger Trigg claims that the law is chiefly concerned about the right of people to not be discriminated against. And disregard the right of free religion. This is not right. YOU do not have the right to project your religion on others. If gay people want to marry in the Church of England which is a public office. It is not your right as a priest, but the individual in the Church of Englands right to marry who they want. Your position as a priest is not a private one.
Something people are conned, taken advantage of, due to their beliefs. There should be some way to intervene with this. Nothing I say are in terms of laws, so don't take it that way. They are just my own thoughts rummaging in my head for any solutions to problems I see.
4) Religions DO give an account of their evidence- its just not accepted by those who dont subscribe.LOL I can give you MY evidence and experience with God but they would not be accepted by you. Sadly some stuff IS NOT ultimatly provable by science (dont get too smug atheists STRING THEORY is also on that list so far...LOL.
5)People conned- sad but true. Just got to try to convince them otherwise. Dont see a solution thats not worse then the prob.
@auraofgloom Hey i'm curious to hear what are your evidence/experience with god are, despite being anecdotal. There are a lot of things I know science aren't willing to accept, because it is not measurable, but that does not make it true. I had many strange things that has happened in my life, for example seeing my deceased grandfather as a child. This proves to me there is an afterlife, but not god. Anyways, please do share.
I 'feel' God through prayer, and sometimes in my work or when doing some task- its just that, a feeling. I also see God's plan in my life-not wanting to get into detail but except for things that happened I'd be in a terrible way by now. I have seen God working to change people open to Him and making them better people.
Posting because you asked- I know its not "scientific" people who try to 'prove' God rather miss the point. He doesnt Need US,we need Him
@auraofgloom My grandma confirmed it was my grandfather, because I pointed him out in a photo album. is video:
watch?v=2yAAiM4Jzzs&feature=channel
shows a girl talking to his father and her father's friend who died in 9/11. Its quite strange, ya?
Other strange experiences i remember is seeing objects being manipulated by no one, a strong wind blowing into my ears when the room was sealed, without no sources of a strong wind. Just strange stuff....
Like I said, its very subjective but I can live with that. I DO take the bible as the Word of God, but i most certainly DO NOT take it as "literal" (as in every word is exactly as read on first inspection)
I think that God has a plan for us but the world (which is currently Satan's stamping ground) and our own choices take us off course. I think there is no coicnidence, just two opposing forces pulling at our will and trying to lead us to where they want us.
@auraofgloom Hmm.. Well, I've had strange experiences in my lifetime, but nothing I would relate to any god. The only semi "religious" experience I've had was borrowing a book full of mantras from a buddhist temple and forgetting to return it. lol. It gotten misplaced and I didn't bother to return it for months. One day, without thinking, I had a thought I needed to return it and I knew exactly where it was. Perhaps just a coincidence, but my thought led me straight to the book and I found it..
@auraofgloom Another experience, (not really paranormal) is astral projection. Not sure if you have heard of it, but its similar to being conscious in another reality. I've done it through a technique, where you are in a lucid dream and you think of your own body. There is a clear distinction from just experiencing a dream and astral projection.
@auraofgloom These are some of the odd experiences I've had in life that have shaped my thoughts on reality. Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it. These things that have happened to me tells me there's more to this reality, than how conventional society perceives the world.
What a bunch of hocum. So because you can't explain the world. Your allowed to speculate about the what it might potentially means and then present it as if it was facts? I to understand there is more to the reality we live in than we understand. But I do not go around speculating in what that could potentially mean. If you find something unknown. Go find out what it means by doing solid research and then present it to others who can check if you have not done any mistakes.
@Muthsera80 You are a blithering fool. You jumped into a conversation that had nothing to do with you and began rambling like a idiot.
I was discussing my personal experiences with someone else and suddenly you start babbling about finding facts? Are you lacking reading comprehension abilities? Because it seems like you did not bother understanding our conversation, before you began talking. If you have a problems with people sharing their experiences, then you have some serious problems.
The extent of my stupidity is profound, Eternity will not tell how large it really is. A Socrates uncertainty will get me nowhere however.
You said: Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it.
If it's anecdotal. It cannot by definition be proof. How can it then be proof to you? Fact is, it is not proof. You take it on faith. Be honest and say that instead of beating around the bush with grand speeches.
@Muthsera80 "If it's anecdotal. It cannot by definition be proof. How can it then be proof to you? Fact is, it is not proof. You take it on faith. Be honest and say that instead of beating around the bush with grand speeches. "
I was merely telling someone my personal experiences are anecdotal, you fool. How can my own personal experiences not be proof to myself? Wtf? Did you even read my post? How is it faith when its personal experience? Grand speeches? I was conveying my experiences?
@Muthsera80 The way you speak is also very illogical and fallacious.
"so because you can't explain the world, you shouldn't speculate?"
First, this is very stupid line, because this point is irrelevant to what I even began talking about.
Second, no one on this planet can explain the world, so your saying we should not have theories about the world? If no one should speculate, then you should tell Ed Witten to shut his pie hole, because there are no empirical evidence for M theory.
Let me get this absolutely clear to you. When I say speculate. I mean in the context of presenting a hypothesis as if it was fact. Now, that does not mean you shouldn't create hypotheses and try to support them. But count all the evidence relevant, and not just the bit that supports once claim. And be honest. There are anomalies in the world. Things we have yet to explain. But that does not mean they are what we always thing they are.
"But I do not go around speculating in what that could potentially mean."
Again, I was merely sharing my experiences, but they do give some indication about the mysteries of the world. These experiences are anomalies that do not just happen on command, and so I'm just conveying my experiences. You obviously have nothing to offer and you need someone else to tell you how to think.
"These experiences are anomalies that do not just happen on command, and so I'm just conveying my experiences."
Even if these experiences would leave you certain. It doesn't do jack sh*t for me. I have only your word for it. You could be lying, or you remember wrongly, you where delusional, etc, you get the point. Claiming something more or further as if it was true, out of that unfounded experience, which you can't support. Is speculation. It is a problem you have, not I.
@Muthsera80 "Even if these experiences would leave you certain. It doesn't do jack sh*t for me."
I don't give a shit if it doesn't do jack shit for you? I was telling aura my personal experiences are ANECDOTAL. Meaning its my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and so they are just stories of my life. Its obvious people shouldn't base their belief on anecdotes, but IM JUST TALKING ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCE TO SOMEONE ELSE and you jumped and started talking nonsense.
I don't understand why you think that have anything to do with it. Your trying to get away with saying something unsupported about the world with the notion it's YOUR experience. Either physical aspect of your claims are true. Or they are untrue. There are no middle ground. You have not shown any evidence for it. Claiming it's your experience means nothing without support. And it's arrogant to thing others should believe what you claim about the physical world on faith.
"You are telling me you never told anyone your own personal experience?"
I don't go around asserting something about the natural world as true, without being able to support it with evidence. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm able to improve and explain better the natural world we live in. If you assert something about astral projection. That isn't saying something personal. It's claiming something about the physical world. And your trying to get away with that on authority.
@Muthsera80 Obviously you don't share your personal experiences and ideas with others, because you don't have anyone to talk to. Instead, you rather tell people on the internet not to talk about their personal experiences.
I can read your personality very clear, based on how you base your arguments. First you don't even understand my conversation with someone else, before you start blabbering about validity. Now you are asking for evidence for something you don't understand.
But by all means. Share your personal experience. But your doing more than that as well. You seek acceptance for your speculation. And you where quite assertive about it as well. Not only did you link having some form of dream to astral projection. In a situation where you should have said that you had something you could only describe as a very real dream. You also claimed you had techniques, which would indicate replication. Which would mean ability to test. For which you did not.
"Share your personal experience. But your doing more than that as well. You seek acceptance for your speculation."
What acceptance do I get for sharing stories on an anonymous screen name on YOUTUBE? Wtf are you stupid? I think you just lack "TALKING TO PEOPLE" in your life.
Quite assertive? I said it was anecdotal you moron.
"What acceptance do I get for sharing stories on an anonymous screen name on YOUTUBE?"
That you did it under anonymity makes it even worse. Not better.
"Quite assertive? I said it was anecdotal you moron."
Then would it not be better if you did not claim you could do it at all? After all, it might be only in your head? The potential for that I would claim is greater, rather then lesser. Now, I'll be fair. You might be right. But I can do nothing for you. You need to show support.
@Muthsera80 What did you not understand? You continuously proved to me you did not understand my posts, by stating something different from what I've said.
Accepting what? You sentence doesn't even make sense. Look, I can see you obviously have some problems. You prefer to demand evidence on youtube for hours, instead of researching and practicing something on your own. I realized there are many idiotic skeptics out there as well now.
What did I claim of you that you did not post. I need specifics here.
"You prefer to demand evidence on youtube for hours, instead of researching and practicing something on your own."
I do not intend to waste my time. I'm barely entertained as it is. I did not make any claims of the world. You did. And I did not let you get away with it. I don't have to do jack. It is your responsibility to support your claims. Described as personal experience or not.
You are a idiot. You don't understand what I say and you don't even do research. You are just a moron who only knows how to say "give me evidence" without understanding anything. Seriously I can't talk to imbeciles.
I don't speak to idiots who lack the reading comprehension ability and who are lazy minded. If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
This is very simple. You claimed you can astral project. Am I wrong to claim that of you? I believe it's clear from the text below, that I'm not. Now, astral projection might be true. Who knows. But you claimed you could do it. Repeatably with techniques. That violate much of what we understand of physics. So for you to claim this, without evidence. And state so publicly. Is not only premature, arrogant and derogatory towards others. But you seem to expect others to take it on faith.
@Muthsera80 I don't speak to idiots who lack the reading comprehension ability and who are lazy minded. If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
@Muthsera80 After I've reread this dialogue and I can tell you why you are stupid.
1) You began your comment with people shouldn't speculate the world as facts, when I was recounting my personal experiences. When I say "Person Experiences" that obviously means it is not facts. You wanted evidence, despite the fact that I said it was anecdotal. You were obviously trying to engage in argument demanding facts without understanding what I was talking about. Hence your inability for comprehension.
I've told you this before if you look back. You could claim it's anecdotal all you like. It doesn't change the fact that you still speculated on the outcome on those anecdotal evidences. You had no grounds to claim they where astral projections at all. You haven't confirmed it. YOU SPECULATED, on the outcome of those strange dreams.
And call me all sorts of names you like. Doesn't validate any argument you make either way.
I can see mercury moving as well. I can test your claims to that. I however cannot test against your claim that you can astral project. To it's like this.
You: My experience shows me that I can astral project.
me: You cannot say that. You have jumped over to many steps to claim that. Show me how I can test your claims.
You. I've already said it's my personal experience.
me. I don't care. You made the claim. You have an obligation to show the evidence for that.
So, again following on my posts, (because I want to make it clear) You are basically trying to prohibit me from 1) answer a question 2) share my ideas 3) provide evidence when I've blatantly made it clear that I did not have scientific proof
I was waiting for you to look up the definition for anecdotal, but you proved to me you fail to understand the meaning. An anecdote OBVIOUSLY means an personal account of a story, which has not been tested with scientific method.
"Anecdotal means jack shit to everyone else. You can have anecdotal evidence that your really Napoleon reborn. I don't care. "
DUHHHH... I said it was anecdotal meaning it was not scientificly researched. Why did you still ask for evidence, when I already said I didn't conduct research? This is why you are dumb. You don't realize this point.
@Muthsera80 So to conclude everything as to why I think you are dumb:
1) You never understood what I had to say to begin with
2) You didn't know anything about the subject
3) You are one of those people who think they are smart by asking, "where is proof" yet you are stupid, because you put into consideration the nuances of the subject
4) You are lazy, because you can only say "where is proof", when you do not bother to do research or experiments on the subject
1. I hear you say that. But you have not pointed to anything that I failed to understand precisely. Disagreeing with you is not failure to understand.
2. What is there to know? You having dreams which you describe as outer body experiences. Can hardly be difficult to grasp. Question is: Do you have any grounds to claim this is real.
3. It's not about being smart. It's about being intellectually honest with oneself, and being thorough.
you: YOU CLAIMED YOU CAN DO IT! I DONT NEED TO DO IT! NOW SHOW ME PROOF!
me: ughh... i said its just my personal experience, but you don't even know what we're talking about.. and you won't bother trying to learn, yet u are still questioning me?
Me: Well, isn't that nice. But when I dream, I do not astral project. So to me that indicates that you haven't sufficiently explored other alternatives for you to claim that you can indeed astral project.
But what you forget. Is that you don't simply claim that it's your experience. You claim that this is part of the world. Since you can do it. That is something that you HAVE to substantiate. Or nobody will take you seriously.
Its sort of like me already stating this is not scientific proof, yet you come along and demand scientific proof. Idiotic right?
So let me try to spell it out for your simple brain
1) Someone asked me a question
2) I answered it saying its JUST my personal experience
(You clearly don't understand this part so I have to elaborate. Recalling my personal experience OBVIOUSLY means It wasn't conducted in a scientific manner. I am sharing my ideas)
1. Well, I read the comment differently. You stated it more so than the other one asking for it.
2. If you claim extraordinary things of the universe of which you have absolutely no evidence for. Then do you really expect others to take you seriously and not question your integrity? Do we accept this in any other discourse? What if a scientist did that in his field? Claim something without evidence or support?
3. Yes, if you can't provide it, you shouldn't claim it.
So you are saying no one should speculate and you should have evidence for it that can be tested again. That means big bang is just speculative, because you are just speculating a bang just occurred. The model of newtonian law breaks down in the quantum level, so bang bang theory should be banned? also evolution is just speculative, because evolution can't be retested in the lab? your saying many theories should be banned because it can't be retested and its speculative?
@Muthsera80 2) You kept begging for evidence for astral projection without ever considering the circumstances. It is repeatable, but it is not easy to get into a lucid dream state. How can I even begin to provide evidence, when it is difficult to get into a astral state with consistency.Just trying getting into a lucid dream yourself and tell me how it is. At least I'm trying to explore the world, whereas you sit behind a computer only knowing how to say "where is proof"
I don't care how difficult it is. I care about you claiming you can do it. And not being able to substantiate anything further other than "describing" whats in your own mind. I'll give you an example. Before Einstein, we knew that Newton's laws where not entirely correct as the orbit of Mercury was slightly off. Every astrologer and physicist knew this. They hypothesized what could result in this. But the evidence was never conclusive. Until Einstein proved this by predicting *cont*
astral projection has an objective method, if you are willing to try but if you don't like what I say, i suggest you sign a petition to ban people from sharing experiences and ideas without evidence, scientists should not be allowed to share hypothesis until they have empirical evidence and any new ideas should be squelched! M-Theory must be banned until they can prove what they say through experiments!
Well, I say your full of shit and your delusional. And you better take it, when you claim this publicly without any support for it. You see. This is the scientific way. You think if a scientist tomorrow went to work and said: You know what. I'm so close to showing that we can indeed go faster the the speed of light. That I'll just claim it. Without showing clear evidence for it. That scientist would be laughed out and would never find work again. So why should I accept it of you?
you proved to me over and over you are not clever at all. You obviously misunderstood the implications I put forth (again) for my analogy. You basically said I can't say something without evidence, despite the fact that SOMEONE ELSE asked me a question and I was answering it. When I say its my own personal experience, OBVIOUSLY you don't take it as hard evidence. When you ask someone for evidence, when they already stated its personal experience, then it just makes you a fool.
It's not about being clever at all. It's about being honest of what one can know. I may have profound experiences in my life. But I cannot on that basis claim it true for everyone else. I have no evidence for it.
And damn right I don't take personal anecdotal evidence as proof. Do you know anyone who does? If so, slap them for me.
and tell me how does background radiation and calculating it backwards account for "real evidence" that the big bang occurred? isn't that just speculating a big bang occurred, since its just speculating it? be honest.
and you still didn't answer my question, about you saying astral projection violates the laws of physics?
"But what you forget. Is that you don't simply claim that it's your experience. You claim that this is part of the world. Since you can do it. That is something that you HAVE to substantiate."
You are basically saying ideas, hypothesis, theories, should not be shared until there is real hard evidence? Then big bang theory, M theory, super position theory, etc should not be allowed to be published? Am I hearing this correctly? Any new ideas or claims should not be allowed?
5) No, what I'm saying is that if you have a hypothesis. You cannot claim that it is factual without further testing it. And only when a huge body of substantial empirical evidence is explained with your hypothesis. Only then does it become a theory. Which it will remain until we have empirical evidence of another hypothesis which explains all the evidences better than the current theory. But you do not have a theory. You barely have a hypothesis. Of which rest no evidence.
Oh, and another thing. You stated I was assertive and I speculated on the world. Please quote me exactly on what I've said to make you think this? Do not just put words in my mouth and quote me exactly.
Also, you said astral projection violates the laws of physics. Explain.
You failed to contribute to anything nor offer any new insight. You don't even know how to formulate your questions properly. You contributed absolutely NOTHING, except for being an annoyance.
Yes, I say that your assertive and you speculate. You have yet any empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact.
You said you can astral project. Now, that isn't just a small claim. And it's one which you claim as fact. Without ruling out any other potential hypothesis before you make. Ie, you speculate on the outcome of your experiences
As far as contributing nothing. Untrue, I'm questioning your claim. It's the most important aspect of this disc.
I said it was "anecdotal" (i already explained the definition to you)
Then you said "I say that your assertive and you speculate. You have yet any empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact."
Is there a problem here? (I don't expect you to get this, because you already shown how stupid you are)
Seriously, if you don't understand this, you should label yourself as a idiot
and yes, you are useless because you contribute NOTHING at all. You think asking for evidence on youtube is making a contribution? especially, when I already said i didn't conduct any scientific research? Is that really making a contribution?
Watching Carls Sagan and jacking off to James Randi and then demanding evidence on youtube is hardly makign a contribution.
Critique is the foundation of the scientific method. Without it you merely have conformity. Which teaches you nothing. Either deal with it or stop claiming it. And it's Carl Sagan. Well, I'm more of a Hitchens jackoffer. /me shakes head. You really think calling me names and doing ad hoc attacks are going to work on me? The way of the deluded mind indeed.
@Muthsera80 Lol, It's not an ad hoc attack, its just relaying personal experience. There's a difference. Fool. did you realize the entire debate, you manage to contribute nothing at all? The reason why I believe you are stupid is because you merely repeated yourself over and over saying science requires evidence. You do not dare to go in more depth, leading me to believe you can not articulate anything greater than what you keep repeating.
No, it's ad hoc attacks because you focus on me and what I might potentially be. Instead of focusing on the issue at hand. You have not shown anything that would indicate that you can indeed astral project. You haven't bothered to exclude any other explanations.
Yes, I do repeat myself again and again. What is in-debt? Where is your support? There is none. You cannot merely claim it's anecdotal as if everyone else should accept it on authority. I cannot test your claim.
@Muthsera80 Did I say I was conducting a scientific experiment? No? I was telling someone my personal experience, so why do you ask for scientific evidence?
Questioning someone for scientific evidence, when they did not conduct scientific is stupid. What could you have possibly gained in doing so? Nothing, which makes you stupid for asking in the first place.
If you want to learn more, u observe, research, experiment, test, repeat. That's the scientific method.
How do you know that your not just blowing smoke up your own ass? Critique is how we know which hypothesis to keep and which to disregard. Only those who endure that vigorous testing stand valid.
@Muthsera80 First off, I clearly stated it was anecdotal, meaning they were just stories of personal experience. I didn't expect anyone to take my word, since I already warned they were just anecdotes. If you want to test my claims, then you may, since the methods are objective.
Second, How does "critiquing" online prove anything? How does asking for evidence prove anything at all? Especially when I said I didn't conduct a scientific experiment? If you want proof, go experiment yourself.
I understand that you feel unfairly critiqued when you have posted a disclaimer. But if you failed to understand that your making great claims of how the world works, then I cannot be responsible for that. I have tested your claims. I dream all the time. But alas. No astral projection. Nor should it fall to me to DISPROVE your claims. It is your obligation to show why they are valid.
Well, my critique of you, keeps others from buying blissfully into our unfounded claim.
@Muthsera80 That kind of logic is fallacious. How is it my obligation to prove astral projection, just because I experienced it? That's like saying, You have to prove what is consciousness, just because you are conscious or the meaning of life, just because you are living? Everyone experiences gravity, but that doesn't make it their sole duty to define it.
That kind of logic is not fallacious. It's not about being curious. It's about not claiming something you cannot substantiate. You can create any hypothesis and discuss that at length all you like. Just don't claim is factual until you can substantiate it.
On gravity. You know, before Newton it was believed that elements wanted to divert to it's natural state. It was four primary elements, earth, water, wind and fire. They belonged in their own stratosphere. Was that true?
@Muthsera80 It is fallacious, because your logic says everyone in Newton's era should have had evidence for gravity, because they experienced it? You basically said if you experience something, you should have evidence for it.
Again, I don't know if you picked this up yet, but I said it was anecdotal, so how did i say it was factual? I was sharing my observations with someone else, unless you find that illegal?
Gravity is there. The problem was that people misunderstood what it really was.
Religious conformity kept it so for nearly 2000 years.
And I already said. You cannot simply claim it's anecdotal and in the same sentence claim it's true. Have you exhausted every other explanations which doesn't violate the current explanation of physics?
@Muthsera80 The difference is you can travel to different places merely by thinking of it. The biggest distinction between dreaming and astral projection is you actually feel like you conscious in another plane. Again, these are anecdotes, but you can try it yourself.
Maybe it is like you claim. Why don't you go to the suit at the Atlantis hotel in Dubai and see who is renting it at the time. Then send a note to someone who can check that validity. Do that as a double blind a couple of hundred times and get back to me.
"Have you exhausted every other explanations which doesn't violate the current explanation of physics?" This sentence grammatically incorrect and it doesn't make sense, but I think you were trying to say explanation violate physics? Explain, how does it violate physics? i don't think you've ever taken a physics class in your life nor do you really understand what physics teaches.
Oh please. Even if so that quantum physics may indicate that two quantum particles can respond to each other over distances of space. Does not mean it can over huge distances. Nor does it mean your mind are able to use that to it's advantage if true. You need to understand that what works on the particle level doesn't easily transferred to the greater level we exist in. According to the laws of the very large it cannot be done. So it violates current explanation of physics.
@Muthsera80 What do you mean if something happens on a particle level doesn't easily transfer to the great level we exist in? That's like saying genes have no effect on us at all, because its so tiny? That's absurd.
No. It simply means that the effect it has one the very tiny level, is not the same effect it has on the very large. Take the strong nuclear force. Which has no to little effect on the very large. But on the atom level keeps the atom together instead of pushing it apart. It's not automatic that smaller forces can be transferred to the very large. So, even if it is that quantum particles can respond to each other over large space. Does not mean you can do it in your brain.
@Muthsera80 The effects on the small levels obviously creates the effects on the larger level.... there is obviously a important reason why big bang theory falls apart in the quantum level and that is what created the universe.. to disregard it is to disregard the nature of true reality. everything is connected and so there is obviously a connection to it
It might just be a case of accurate measurements. Or simply not having good enough models. But you need to remember that the quantum level breaks down on the very large as well. It goes both ways. The evidences conflict. Does not mean both are complete untrue.
@Muthsera80 How does your critique help in anyway? If anything, you are only telling people not to experiment and sit on the computer and ask for evidence? Look, I'm sure criticizing psychics or scientologists has its value, because they take advantage of the public, but astral projection is a FREE METHOD anyone can experience. If anything, you are hindering people from experimenting/experiencing consciousness in another level. You actually impede human progress by telling them not to experiment
I may only be hindering if your claims are true. Isn't it? If you believe your hypothesis to be true. Why don't you do some vigorous testing where you can narrow down and substantiate how it works. Give it to two others who can pick apart your vigorously and test it themselves. In what ever method they think are sufficient. Once that is overcome, you can submit it to peer review in a science journal where everyone can scrutinize your claim. This is what every other scientist do,
@Muthsera80 We've discussed it before... I told you, its not as easy as you make it out to be. I don't know how to get into a astral projection state on command and i do not have the time to practice it. If it was possible, I would have done it already. and I know how science work....... I don't know why you think you need to explain this to me... but If you want to know how difficult it is, why don't you try it yourself?
If it's 1 in1000 does not matter. It is that one time that you claim you can that matters. Why don't I try it myself? Well I do try continuously, but I only dream. Alas. Plus, I think it's bogus wishful thinking. Only with "anecdotal" evidence.
@Muthsera80 If you truly want experiments done, you are better off asking people like Dr. Albert Taylor or those who are more experienced in astral projection. I don't see how criticizing astral projection does any good though? Because it does not take an advantage over anybody or their money? People can go try and experiment with it if they like and it hurts nobody. If anything, people may actually experience something profound and it would open up new questions on reality.
Simply because it doesn't rob people of their money it robs them of their faculties. It teaches people that wishful thinking is ok. And that you don't have bother with substantiate your claims with evidence as long as it makes you "feel" good.
@Muthsera80 I'm starting to get a sense that you are just following a set of ideas you've learned and you are regurgitating them. It feels to me like, you watch a bunch of skeptics video, decided to ask for evidence on the internet and declare it in the name of science...To follow a set of "skeptic" belief is the same as following a bunch of "religious" belief. You don't think for yourself and you are acting through a belief you picked up.
Yes, I do watch "skeptic" videos. As I do watch religious ones. I judge your claims on it's validity. You have not shown any. I don't care if you try to psychoanalyze me as to excuse so you can continue your own beliefs. Do that as you may. But your claims stands on their own. Either you substantiate them. Or you don't and we ignore them.
@Muthsera80 You sound like you watch skeptic videos. You almost sound like you don't have a mind of your own. Do you know how christians preach the bible without thinking twice about what they are saying? Well you sound like your preaching skepticism, without thinking twice about what you are saying.
@Muthsera80 And also, let me define my experience for astral projection more clearly, so if one day you experience it, you'll realize it is truly objective. To achieve astral projection, while you are lucid dreaming, you think of your real body that is sleeping. The dream will go black and you will feel your body float upwards until you regain sight. Once this happens, you are in astral projection and it feels like you are awake as if you were conscious right now.
This sounds very much like a normal dream to me. We do after all dream some weird stuff don't we? How do you know it's truly know it's astral projection? Can you wake up and claim something you have no knowledge about before you went into the dream? Ie, a test?
@Muthsera80 "This sounds very much like a normal dream to me." You can't distinguish something, If you never experienced it.
"It teaches people that wishful thinking is ok."
There is nothing remotely related to wishful thinking? How is it wishful thinking?
Look, I sort of get an idea of you that you don't really think much for yourself. I don't see how this is wishful thinking and I don't see how "critiquing" does anything for this matter.
@Muthsera80 It sounds like you adopted a religious arguing mentality and you use it as your filter in the world. Astral Projection has nothing to do with wishful thinking? What is there anything to be wishful about for astral projection? Just name one thing.. anything ? It's not based on faith, its either you experience it or you didn't? You clearly are using repetitive modes of arguments that has nothing to do with this one. Stop and learn to look at things for what it is.
No, it's using an approach for which we can get certain knowledge. Either you follow it or you don't. But don't expect others to simply "buy" into your unsubstantiated claims.
@Muthsera80 Again, we've already discussed my "unsubstantiated claims" The method is objective, anyone can learn it. Just like how science's experiments are objective and anyone can test it. It's out there for you to test.
Well, I've tested it last time I went to bed. And every night of my life. And I've not experienced it once.
Secondly. You simply do not get this notion that it's: Your claim. You substantiate it. It's not the other peoples place to disprove your continued ramblings as if they are valid. They are not valid until you can substantiate them. This is the important distinction between mare speculation and actual knowledge.
@Muthsera80 You don't test it while you are in bed.. you test it while you are already in a lucid dream state.
And I never said i set out to conduct a scientific experiment to prove it. I told you, your logic is flawed, because it states "just because you experience something means you must validate it?" Then I expect you to validate what connects general relativity with quantum theory, since you are living in this world?
@Muthsera80 I think your idea of criticizing things is your way of helping science. I think you failed to realize that science is to probe, experiment, question everything to find an answer. People need to be open minded to learn new things, but skeptical about things so they won't be fooled.
Your simply fully wrong here. Being skeptical about the claims we hold is a sign of an inquisitive mind which doesn't accept something as true on authority. Maybe our current understanding is untrue. But the current understanding must be part of the solution because of it's extreme accuracy. Being inquisitive is all well and good. But you also need to question your knowledge as well.
@Muthsera80 Look, I agree with being skeptical, but it comes to a poitn where you need balance. You need to be open minded to actually learn something new, but you must also scrutinize the things you pick up. You can't just be a mindless robot saying I will be skeptical about everything. You need to actually experiment and research and learn for yourself.
Yes, I agree. You need to be inquisitive. But you also cannot simply claim anything you like without evidence. Well, you can. But don't expect anyone else to accept them. I also said that it might be as you said. But we had no way of knowing if it was simply you blowing smoke up your own ass or if it was indeed true.
@Muthsera80 scientific method is observing, researching, experimenting, testing. You say you are too lazy for all the above, which just makes you idiot who only knows how to say, "where's the evidence". Repeating that line contributes NOTHING AT ALL to science, especially in the format you ask for. Everything you contributed is baseless and worthless.
It's also about excluding all other explanations. Well, I have dreams as well. Why are yours different? What makes you think your actually outside your own body? Can you exclude that it's not simply a vivid dream? Have you done a double blind test to show clear evidence towards the validity of your claims? I am not the one making the claim. You have a responsibility to show support. And if I contain myself on merely critiquing you. That is perfectly valid of my position.
@Muthsera80 Again, I said it was not conducted in a scientific experiment, so does it look like I have done experiments? Why are you unable to comprehend this? If you actually read what I've said, I said I followed the technique that I've learned and I experimented on it. There was a discernible difference between a vivid dream and what I experienced. I did not do scientific research, so why are you asking for scientific evidence?
If you are truly against people who speculate on the world and is assertive about claims that are not yet proven. Go write to Dr. Edward Witten at the Institute of Advanced Study located in Princeton, New Jersey. Please write to him and tell him to stfu, because he has no evidence.
7) No, I said you shouldn't present as fact and speculate on the outcome of your hypothesis as if it was true without having support for it. I highly doubt Witten claims his hypothesis are valid without having substantial evidence for it submitted in peer review. Now, notice how I said evidence. Mathematical evidence might be indicative. But it is by no means empirical without testing it in the real world. That is why m theory is by many not science because it cannot ever be tested.
@Muthsera80 1) Lol, You continue to prove to me you have poor comprehension skills. You answered my replies, point by point which does not make sense, because it suppose show step by step of what has occurred. I guess breaking things down in tiny bits are still too big for you to digest. I'm going to say this again, but I know that you are too dumb to understand this, but here goes nothing.
You said "its about being honest to oneself" and you need "empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact". Then you have to be honest about many of the theories that science, put out, because ultimately they are just speculation and so you are suggesting they should be banned?
*cont* the orbit of Mercury precisely to the second in space, with his theory on general relativity. He could have claimed that all he like until he died. But unless someone else could test his predictions. He was invalid and of no consequence. And you say that; at least you try to explore. True, that is a valiant effort. But if you cannot substantiate with evidence what you do. You will continue to be invalid in the eyes of others. Because it must be able to be tested against.
So let me CLEARLY, conclude your mistakes for the first portion what has happened, since you have poor comprehension.
1) You told me I had no right to answer someone's question, despite the fact they were asking me it
2) You asked for evidence, despite the fact that I made it clear that these were just anecdotes
3) You want to prohibit people from sharing ideas without evidence. Now, There are no empirical evidence showing the big bang occurred, so should it be banned?
2. No, I said you needed to show evidence for the claims you make. That is a responsibility you have regardless of what I ask for or not.
3. On the contrary. Gladly share ideas. Just don't claim your hypothesis is fact when it is unproven. And no, your wrong. There is evidence for the big bang. It's called background radiation. And if you calculate all the expanse of the universe today and run it backwards. It shows some 13billion years. That is evidence.
"I said you shouldn't present as fact and speculate on the outcome of your hypothesis as if it was true without having support for it."
"There is evidence for the big bang. It's called background radiation. And if you calculate all the expanse of the universe today and run it backwards. It shows some 13billion years. That is evidence."
@Muthsera80 If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
@Muthsera80 3) You don't even know what evidence you are asking for. You don''t even know what astral projection is. To prove that you don't know what it is, You say "it violates our understanding of physics." Tell me
How does it violate the what we understand about physics?
@Muthsera80 Even if I say do evidence, what does that prove? you said "Do a 100 blind test. If they give you a better result than pure guessing. Your onto something." You also prove here you don't know what astral projection is, because you said to prove astral project, you should do it 100 times and if its better than guessing, than its real.
Okay, I've done it 100x and its better than guessing. Now what? Is that all the evidence you want?
@Muthsera80 I didn't have a link to astral projection idiot. "Not only did you link having some form of dream to astral projection."
It was a link to a news report about a girl who seen her deceased father you idiot. This proves to me you don't comprehend information before you speak.
"something you could only describe as a very real dream"
GO read it over. i distinctly said its discernible from a dream dumb ass. Stop taking my words out of context.
@Muthsera80 I've said I've done it through lucid dreaming technique which is not easily replicated. Its not something I practice every night, but it has happened in those few occasions. You are those idiotic skeptics who only know how to demand for evidence. You don't even bother understanding something prior to asking questions. Do I have to simply everything for you? Am I speaking to a child? You are truly frustrating to speak to. I suggest you stop talking to me and go learn something else.
"You are truly frustrating to talk to, because you are lacking comprehension skills"
I'm frustrating you because I'm not giving you any room of authority or personal space of leverage su that I'll respect your belief. It's not enough to claim it's your own experience if your claiming something about the physical world. YOU have a responsibility to support your claims. And saying something on "what if" your claim is true. Is speculation. First your need to give support for the claim.
@Muthsera80 No you are frustrating, because you are idiotic, because you can't stand other people sharing their own experiences. For some reason you have to barge in and demand something which no basis of knowledge.
First, I said it was ANECDOTAL you idiot, I don't know how many times I've said this, but obviously you can't comprehend this.
Trust me, you don't sound smart by simply asking for evidence and trying to be skeptical. You sound idiotic, because you speak before you think.
There is no anecdotal. Either what you say is part of something which is true. Or it is untrue. And you cannot claim it's personal. It's either part of the physical world which you have fallen onto. Or it is untrue. It cannot be simply your experience. And that you try to claim that, shows to me your inability to understand that your actually making a claim of the physical world which you have no foundation to base it on. Have the hypothesis all you like. But so far it's unfounded.
@Muthsera80 Wtf are you talking about? You are truly a moron.
"you cannot claim it's personal"
Are you against people having conversations with one another or something? Seriously???
Look, its not my problem that you have issues about people having discussions on the internet and its not my problem you need evidence for every claim on the internet. You have some serious issues about the way you talk to people. Seriously, you are pretty dumb.
Did you, or did you not claim you could astral project? Repeatably with techniques? Is that not asserting something about the physical world? That cannot be personal. It can be that only you can do it. But that is something different from what your asking acceptance for. And to be honest. Not only is that quite an extraordinary claim. But an arrogant one as well as your asking us to accept this claim without any evidence. My stupidity might be large. But I don't accept that notion.
@Muthsera80 Yeah, you are pretty stupid. I don't care if your some idiotic, close-minded, skeptic who only knows how to annoy people online by demanding for evidence without fully understanding the premises someone else conversation.
"your asking us to accept this claim without any evidence"
Again I said its ANECDOTAL you moron.
"Did you, or did you not claim you could astral project?"
Then you should not claim it at all. Anecdotal does nothing for you. For others it's anecdotal. You however claimed it was true. ie: "I can astral project". I did not make that statement. You did. And you asked us to accept that as your experience. It might be. We have no way of knowing. You need to understand that no one can accept that claim on face value. Personal experience or not. Nor should you accept anyone else to do so either.
@Muthsera80 You obviously don't know what kind of evidence your asking for, yet you still ask. I'm all for skepticism, but the way you go about it is idiotic. All you know how to do is say, "where is proof" and that MEANS NOTHING. There is a reason why proof needs to be able to be repeated and its so other scientists can do it themselves. Why don't you go try it for yourself then instead of being stupid on the internet?
@Muthsera80 You are one of those idiotic wannabe skeptics, who only knows how to ask for evidence. You don't have any basis for your questions. Seriously, I don't know where to begin to tell you how stupid you are.
@Muthsera80 You sound like you have no clue about what I've said earlier and you continue to ramble about irrelevant nonsense, because you can't comprehend what I've posted. You read one of my lines and take it out of context, showing me how you approach your information. You are a hypocrite, because you are the one who reads one line and takes it as something else.
Its frustrating to have to read your idiotic posts.
@Muthsera80 Finally, you say "Go find out what it means by doing solid research and then present it to others who can check if you have not done any mistakes."
Again, I will say you need to learn to comprehend before you speak. You jumped into a conversation that you were clueless about. If you actually read, think, before you talk, then you would understand what I've said are experiences that do not occur frequently, therefore impossible to test.
"You jumped into a conversation that you were clueless about."
No, the following sentence was all I needed to understand where you where coming from:
"Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it."
It told me everything I needed to know about your own curiosity, your approach to knowledge and how you structured your quest towards finding information. It might be pretentious of me to say so. But non the less true.
@Muthsera80 Are you serious???? You just started babbling about nonsense to me, after you a read line of my post? Wtf? Now that tells me how you approach your knowledge, you hypocrite.
I was telling aura, that my personal experiences are anecdotal, but they prove something to me?
Did you not read what I've said? Do you understand why anomalies can't be reproduced? You don't even know the time frame them neither. Do you not see how hypocritical/stupid you sound?
@Muthsera80 You do not come off pretentious, but a bit idiotic to me. You don't comprehend my posts, you read a piece of it and started babbling, you say things that have no relevance to my post, you don't seem to know what your talking about, and then you accuse me of how I find my information??
Tell me, how do I validate my experiences in an empirical way? huh?? give me an answer or stfu and go away, because I feel like I'm talking to someone who is very stupid.
"Tell me, how do I validate my experiences in an empirical way?"
I'm not the one making the claims. You are. It's not my responsibility to disprove your unfounded claims. Extraordinary claims needs extraordinary evidence. What your claiming is indeed extraordinary. You say that you can project your thoughts trough space. Ie, astral projection. That is fairly easy to test. Do a 100 blind test. If they give you a better result than pure guessing. Your onto something.
@Muthsera80 Wtf? Have you been watching too much Carl Sagan??
"It's not my responsibility to disprove your unfounded claims."
Stfu, then don't barge in a conversation that had nothing to do with you. I was telling someone my personal experiences and you just jump in asking for concrete evidence despite understanding my posts. You truly sound stupid. I don't need anyone telling me the scientific method, holy shit. It sounds like you just learned it yesterday or something.
@Muthsera80 You were just stating the obvious "go do research, before you present something to the community." Wow, tell me something I don't know... Why didn't you just say, "we need air to live" or something.... There is a reason why we can only gather so much empirical evidence....
Go learn to read and understand something, before you begin speaking and talking nonsense.
@auraofgloom after months of ignoring it. I don't know if its really anything, but I should just thought that was a bit strange. Maybe its just a coincidence or something.
Another paranormal experience I've had was seeing my grandfather when was a child. He was murdered and for some reason I still saw him lurking around the house after his death. He actually lived on a different continent, but I would see him looking into the house through a window, from the outside.
@Flows234 Actually no- Jesus never bought or owned slaves, killed anyone or told his followers to kill anyone. Slavery was fought by many religious groups-i actually think you will find that there were few-if any- secular groups opposing slavery.
Thats actually not the point- telling someone that they 'have to re-interpret' their holy book because society has changed is basicly saying that people must think what the state says they must think. THATS an idea that will bite the user in the butt.
That poor air steward. The simple truth is if she wasn't white they wouldn't have said anything. The UK companies are so scared of being seen as racist that non-whites can be whatever religion they like, but white people....must on no level be seen to have an opinion that could "offend" non - white people. That is why Muslims can wear whatever head gear they want, and Indians can have the a red spot etc, but if a white person wears a NECKLACE that is of the Christian faith it is forbidden.
MickJaggerLoveChild 2 weeks ago
.. and even many times more so, the same goes for Islam.
Anti-human-rights beliefs should never be respected .. nor viewed as deserving of any sympathy as being marginalised when itself is the very representation of the term "unjust marginalisation against differential believers" .
kkdkk7 2 months ago
I think the host of this documentary fails to examine why the rights to believe in Christian beliefs are in so many ways in conflict with so many other basic human rights .. is this not an indication to any perceptive viewers that Christianity or the literal biblical teachings of christianity are anti basic human rights .. is that not a problem with christianity itself rather than with modern evolved human civilisation ?
kkdkk7 2 months ago
Christians being discriminated against by others ?... Hmmm I gusse theres some truth to the saying that what goes around comes around..... Their turn in the barrel eh.....
kamphwagon1 7 months ago
anything that threatens to dogmatic arrogance or religion is fine by me.
smileyraw 10 months ago
The problem with this show is that the guy is not confronting any of the people speaking here - except that he confronted the woman from the civil rights organization, and even then, he didn't really drill her. This is a very lazy type of show.
TheChicagotist 10 months ago
I meant the Liberty group, though I did not mean this segment. I meant the prior time this lawyer appeared in this doc.
TheChicagotist 10 months ago
Out of all the things that need revision and updating, they worry about what a woman chooses to wear around her neck.
*eyeroll*
xxSilverPhinxx 1 year ago
@ 6:19 Roger Trigg claims that the law is chiefly concerned about the right of people to not be discriminated against. And disregard the right of free religion. This is not right. YOU do not have the right to project your religion on others. If gay people want to marry in the Church of England which is a public office. It is not your right as a priest, but the individual in the Church of Englands right to marry who they want. Your position as a priest is not a private one.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
Something people are conned, taken advantage of, due to their beliefs. There should be some way to intervene with this. Nothing I say are in terms of laws, so don't take it that way. They are just my own thoughts rummaging in my head for any solutions to problems I see.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234 POST 2
4) Religions DO give an account of their evidence- its just not accepted by those who dont subscribe.LOL I can give you MY evidence and experience with God but they would not be accepted by you. Sadly some stuff IS NOT ultimatly provable by science (dont get too smug atheists STRING THEORY is also on that list so far...LOL.
5)People conned- sad but true. Just got to try to convince them otherwise. Dont see a solution thats not worse then the prob.
auraofgloom 1 year ago
@auraofgloom Hey i'm curious to hear what are your evidence/experience with god are, despite being anecdotal. There are a lot of things I know science aren't willing to accept, because it is not measurable, but that does not make it true. I had many strange things that has happened in my life, for example seeing my deceased grandfather as a child. This proves to me there is an afterlife, but not god. Anyways, please do share.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234 Warning : SUBJECTIVITY ALERT
I 'feel' God through prayer, and sometimes in my work or when doing some task- its just that, a feeling. I also see God's plan in my life-not wanting to get into detail but except for things that happened I'd be in a terrible way by now. I have seen God working to change people open to Him and making them better people.
Posting because you asked- I know its not "scientific" people who try to 'prove' God rather miss the point. He doesnt Need US,we need Him
auraofgloom 1 year ago
@auraofgloom My grandma confirmed it was my grandfather, because I pointed him out in a photo album. is video:
watch?v=2yAAiM4Jzzs&feature=channel
shows a girl talking to his father and her father's friend who died in 9/11. Its quite strange, ya?
Other strange experiences i remember is seeing objects being manipulated by no one, a strong wind blowing into my ears when the room was sealed, without no sources of a strong wind. Just strange stuff....
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234 Post 2 STILL SUBJECTIVE
Like I said, its very subjective but I can live with that. I DO take the bible as the Word of God, but i most certainly DO NOT take it as "literal" (as in every word is exactly as read on first inspection)
I think that God has a plan for us but the world (which is currently Satan's stamping ground) and our own choices take us off course. I think there is no coicnidence, just two opposing forces pulling at our will and trying to lead us to where they want us.
auraofgloom 1 year ago
@auraofgloom Post 3
What sort of experiences have you had?
auraofgloom 1 year ago
@auraofgloom Hmm.. Well, I've had strange experiences in my lifetime, but nothing I would relate to any god. The only semi "religious" experience I've had was borrowing a book full of mantras from a buddhist temple and forgetting to return it. lol. It gotten misplaced and I didn't bother to return it for months. One day, without thinking, I had a thought I needed to return it and I knew exactly where it was. Perhaps just a coincidence, but my thought led me straight to the book and I found it..
Flows234 1 year ago
@auraofgloom Another experience, (not really paranormal) is astral projection. Not sure if you have heard of it, but its similar to being conscious in another reality. I've done it through a technique, where you are in a lucid dream and you think of your own body. There is a clear distinction from just experiencing a dream and astral projection.
Flows234 1 year ago
@auraofgloom These are some of the odd experiences I've had in life that have shaped my thoughts on reality. Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it. These things that have happened to me tells me there's more to this reality, than how conventional society perceives the world.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234 Your right there is Much more then we understand in the world. Thanks for sharing.
auraofgloom 1 year ago
@Flows234
What a bunch of hocum. So because you can't explain the world. Your allowed to speculate about the what it might potentially means and then present it as if it was facts? I to understand there is more to the reality we live in than we understand. But I do not go around speculating in what that could potentially mean. If you find something unknown. Go find out what it means by doing solid research and then present it to others who can check if you have not done any mistakes.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 wtf u talking about?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You are a blithering fool. You jumped into a conversation that had nothing to do with you and began rambling like a idiot.
I was discussing my personal experiences with someone else and suddenly you start babbling about finding facts? Are you lacking reading comprehension abilities? Because it seems like you did not bother understanding our conversation, before you began talking. If you have a problems with people sharing their experiences, then you have some serious problems.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
The extent of my stupidity is profound, Eternity will not tell how large it really is. A Socrates uncertainty will get me nowhere however.
You said: Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it.
If it's anecdotal. It cannot by definition be proof. How can it then be proof to you? Fact is, it is not proof. You take it on faith. Be honest and say that instead of beating around the bush with grand speeches.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 "If it's anecdotal. It cannot by definition be proof. How can it then be proof to you? Fact is, it is not proof. You take it on faith. Be honest and say that instead of beating around the bush with grand speeches. "
I was merely telling someone my personal experiences are anecdotal, you fool. How can my own personal experiences not be proof to myself? Wtf? Did you even read my post? How is it faith when its personal experience? Grand speeches? I was conveying my experiences?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 The way you speak is also very illogical and fallacious.
"so because you can't explain the world, you shouldn't speculate?"
First, this is very stupid line, because this point is irrelevant to what I even began talking about.
Second, no one on this planet can explain the world, so your saying we should not have theories about the world? If no one should speculate, then you should tell Ed Witten to shut his pie hole, because there are no empirical evidence for M theory.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Let me get this absolutely clear to you. When I say speculate. I mean in the context of presenting a hypothesis as if it was fact. Now, that does not mean you shouldn't create hypotheses and try to support them. But count all the evidence relevant, and not just the bit that supports once claim. And be honest. There are anomalies in the world. Things we have yet to explain. But that does not mean they are what we always thing they are.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 seriously wtf are you babbling about?
"When I say speculate. I mean in the context of presenting a hypothesis as if it was fact."
I was recounting my experiences to someone else and you took it as fact idiot.
"There are anomalies in the world. Things we have yet to explain. But that does not mean they are what we always thing they are. "
OBviously if they are anomalies, then we do not thoroughly understand it? Why do you always state the obvious??
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Next, you say:
"But I do not go around speculating in what that could potentially mean."
Again, I was merely sharing my experiences, but they do give some indication about the mysteries of the world. These experiences are anomalies that do not just happen on command, and so I'm just conveying my experiences. You obviously have nothing to offer and you need someone else to tell you how to think.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"These experiences are anomalies that do not just happen on command, and so I'm just conveying my experiences."
Even if these experiences would leave you certain. It doesn't do jack sh*t for me. I have only your word for it. You could be lying, or you remember wrongly, you where delusional, etc, you get the point. Claiming something more or further as if it was true, out of that unfounded experience, which you can't support. Is speculation. It is a problem you have, not I.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 "Even if these experiences would leave you certain. It doesn't do jack sh*t for me."
I don't give a shit if it doesn't do jack shit for you? I was telling aura my personal experiences are ANECDOTAL. Meaning its my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and so they are just stories of my life. Its obvious people shouldn't base their belief on anecdotes, but IM JUST TALKING ABOUT MY OWN EXPERIENCE TO SOMEONE ELSE and you jumped and started talking nonsense.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
I don't understand why you think that have anything to do with it. Your trying to get away with saying something unsupported about the world with the notion it's YOUR experience. Either physical aspect of your claims are true. Or they are untrue. There are no middle ground. You have not shown any evidence for it. Claiming it's your experience means nothing without support. And it's arrogant to thing others should believe what you claim about the physical world on faith.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 HOLY SHIT! Am I talking to a fucking rock?
First, it never concerned you.
Second, You did not fully understand my post.
Third, I TOLD HIM IT WAS ANECDOTAL BECAUSE ITS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
"Your trying to get away with saying something unsupported about the world with the notion it's YOUR experience. "
Wtf?!?! You are telling me you never told anyone your own personal experience? That is sheer stupidity in my opinion.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"You are telling me you never told anyone your own personal experience?"
I don't go around asserting something about the natural world as true, without being able to support it with evidence. I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm able to improve and explain better the natural world we live in. If you assert something about astral projection. That isn't saying something personal. It's claiming something about the physical world. And your trying to get away with that on authority.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Obviously you don't share your personal experiences and ideas with others, because you don't have anyone to talk to. Instead, you rather tell people on the internet not to talk about their personal experiences.
I can read your personality very clear, based on how you base your arguments. First you don't even understand my conversation with someone else, before you start blabbering about validity. Now you are asking for evidence for something you don't understand.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
But by all means. Share your personal experience. But your doing more than that as well. You seek acceptance for your speculation. And you where quite assertive about it as well. Not only did you link having some form of dream to astral projection. In a situation where you should have said that you had something you could only describe as a very real dream. You also claimed you had techniques, which would indicate replication. Which would mean ability to test. For which you did not.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Wtf you are truly a idiot.
"Share your personal experience. But your doing more than that as well. You seek acceptance for your speculation."
What acceptance do I get for sharing stories on an anonymous screen name on YOUTUBE? Wtf are you stupid? I think you just lack "TALKING TO PEOPLE" in your life.
Quite assertive? I said it was anecdotal you moron.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"What acceptance do I get for sharing stories on an anonymous screen name on YOUTUBE?"
That you did it under anonymity makes it even worse. Not better.
"Quite assertive? I said it was anecdotal you moron."
Then would it not be better if you did not claim you could do it at all? After all, it might be only in your head? The potential for that I would claim is greater, rather then lesser. Now, I'll be fair. You might be right. But I can do nothing for you. You need to show support.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I don't need to appease any idiots on the internet. Especially people who don't bother fully understanding anything I've posted.
"That you did it under anonymity makes it even worse. Not better."
What does this have to do with acceptance? You just don't understand interpersonal communication.
"Then would it not be better if you did not claim you could do it at all"
Did you not read my post? Do you not allow people to talk to each other?
Are you stupid?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
What did I not understand? Is your objection instead not about "accepting"?
And your right. You don't have to entertain me or any other idiots on the web. But you chose to.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 What did you not understand? You continuously proved to me you did not understand my posts, by stating something different from what I've said.
Accepting what? You sentence doesn't even make sense. Look, I can see you obviously have some problems. You prefer to demand evidence on youtube for hours, instead of researching and practicing something on your own. I realized there are many idiotic skeptics out there as well now.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
What did I claim of you that you did not post. I need specifics here.
"You prefer to demand evidence on youtube for hours, instead of researching and practicing something on your own."
I do not intend to waste my time. I'm barely entertained as it is. I did not make any claims of the world. You did. And I did not let you get away with it. I don't have to do jack. It is your responsibility to support your claims. Described as personal experience or not.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 "I don't have to do jack."
You are a idiot. You don't understand what I say and you don't even do research. You are just a moron who only knows how to say "give me evidence" without understanding anything. Seriously I can't talk to imbeciles.
I don't speak to idiots who lack the reading comprehension ability and who are lazy minded. If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
This is very simple. You claimed you can astral project. Am I wrong to claim that of you? I believe it's clear from the text below, that I'm not. Now, astral projection might be true. Who knows. But you claimed you could do it. Repeatably with techniques. That violate much of what we understand of physics. So for you to claim this, without evidence. And state so publicly. Is not only premature, arrogant and derogatory towards others. But you seem to expect others to take it on faith.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I don't speak to idiots who lack the reading comprehension ability and who are lazy minded. If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 After I've reread this dialogue and I can tell you why you are stupid.
1) You began your comment with people shouldn't speculate the world as facts, when I was recounting my personal experiences. When I say "Person Experiences" that obviously means it is not facts. You wanted evidence, despite the fact that I said it was anecdotal. You were obviously trying to engage in argument demanding facts without understanding what I was talking about. Hence your inability for comprehension.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
I've told you this before if you look back. You could claim it's anecdotal all you like. It doesn't change the fact that you still speculated on the outcome on those anecdotal evidences. You had no grounds to claim they where astral projections at all. You haven't confirmed it. YOU SPECULATED, on the outcome of those strange dreams.
And call me all sorts of names you like. Doesn't validate any argument you make either way.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 1) I don't think you understand, so let me just use your own analogy.
auraofdoom: hey flows whats your experiences with mercury?
me: well, my experience shows its moving
you: YOU CAN'T SPECULATE ITS MOVING SHOW ME PROOF
me: i ALREADY said its just my personal experience
you: I don't care, show me proof
me: do you know what we're talking about?
you: I DONT NEED TO KNOW SHOW ME PROOF
me: ughh...... ill tell u how i've experienced it, so u can do it too
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
1.
No, wrong.
I can see mercury moving as well. I can test your claims to that. I however cannot test against your claim that you can astral project. To it's like this.
You: My experience shows me that I can astral project.
me: You cannot say that. You have jumped over to many steps to claim that. Show me how I can test your claims.
You. I've already said it's my personal experience.
me. I don't care. You made the claim. You have an obligation to show the evidence for that.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 3)
So, again following on my posts, (because I want to make it clear) You are basically trying to prohibit me from 1) answer a question 2) share my ideas 3) provide evidence when I've blatantly made it clear that I did not have scientific proof
I was waiting for you to look up the definition for anecdotal, but you proved to me you fail to understand the meaning. An anecdote OBVIOUSLY means an personal account of a story, which has not been tested with scientific method.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
3)
1. No. I said your claims was bullshit and wrong. I didn't say you where forbidden to do anything.
2. I said no such thing. I said you should claim it as fact and speculate in it's outcome.
3. Then clearly you could be mistaken and should claim it as fact. It can be all sorts of things. Which you haven't ruled out.
Anecdotal means jack shit to everyone else. You can have anecdotal evidence that your really Napoleon reborn. I don't care.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 3)
"Anecdotal means jack shit to everyone else. You can have anecdotal evidence that your really Napoleon reborn. I don't care. "
DUHHHH... I said it was anecdotal meaning it was not scientificly researched. Why did you still ask for evidence, when I already said I didn't conduct research? This is why you are dumb. You don't realize this point.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 So to conclude everything as to why I think you are dumb:
1) You never understood what I had to say to begin with
2) You didn't know anything about the subject
3) You are one of those people who think they are smart by asking, "where is proof" yet you are stupid, because you put into consideration the nuances of the subject
4) You are lazy, because you can only say "where is proof", when you do not bother to do research or experiments on the subject
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
1. I hear you say that. But you have not pointed to anything that I failed to understand precisely. Disagreeing with you is not failure to understand.
2. What is there to know? You having dreams which you describe as outer body experiences. Can hardly be difficult to grasp. Question is: Do you have any grounds to claim this is real.
3. It's not about being smart. It's about being intellectually honest with oneself, and being thorough.
4. It's not me who made the claim.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 2)
you: YOU SAID U EXPERIENCED IT NOW GIVE ME PROOF
me: you can experience it if you tried!
you: YOU CLAIMED YOU CAN DO IT! I DONT NEED TO DO IT! NOW SHOW ME PROOF!
me: ughh... i said its just my personal experience, but you don't even know what we're talking about.. and you won't bother trying to learn, yet u are still questioning me?
you: SHOW ME PROOF
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
2.
You: Since I can experience it, So can you.
Me: Well, isn't that nice. But when I dream, I do not astral project. So to me that indicates that you haven't sufficiently explored other alternatives for you to claim that you can indeed astral project.
But what you forget. Is that you don't simply claim that it's your experience. You claim that this is part of the world. Since you can do it. That is something that you HAVE to substantiate. Or nobody will take you seriously.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 2
Its sort of like me already stating this is not scientific proof, yet you come along and demand scientific proof. Idiotic right?
So let me try to spell it out for your simple brain
1) Someone asked me a question
2) I answered it saying its JUST my personal experience
(You clearly don't understand this part so I have to elaborate. Recalling my personal experience OBVIOUSLY means It wasn't conducted in a scientific manner. I am sharing my ideas)
3) You come along and ask for proof
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
2)
1. Well, I read the comment differently. You stated it more so than the other one asking for it.
2. If you claim extraordinary things of the universe of which you have absolutely no evidence for. Then do you really expect others to take you seriously and not question your integrity? Do we accept this in any other discourse? What if a scientist did that in his field? Claim something without evidence or support?
3. Yes, if you can't provide it, you shouldn't claim it.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 5)
So you are saying no one should speculate and you should have evidence for it that can be tested again. That means big bang is just speculative, because you are just speculating a bang just occurred. The model of newtonian law breaks down in the quantum level, so bang bang theory should be banned? also evolution is just speculative, because evolution can't be retested in the lab? your saying many theories should be banned because it can't be retested and its speculative?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 2) You kept begging for evidence for astral projection without ever considering the circumstances. It is repeatable, but it is not easy to get into a lucid dream state. How can I even begin to provide evidence, when it is difficult to get into a astral state with consistency.Just trying getting into a lucid dream yourself and tell me how it is. At least I'm trying to explore the world, whereas you sit behind a computer only knowing how to say "where is proof"
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
I don't care how difficult it is. I care about you claiming you can do it. And not being able to substantiate anything further other than "describing" whats in your own mind. I'll give you an example. Before Einstein, we knew that Newton's laws where not entirely correct as the orbit of Mercury was slightly off. Every astrologer and physicist knew this. They hypothesized what could result in this. But the evidence was never conclusive. Until Einstein proved this by predicting *cont*
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 3)
astral projection has an objective method, if you are willing to try but if you don't like what I say, i suggest you sign a petition to ban people from sharing experiences and ideas without evidence, scientists should not be allowed to share hypothesis until they have empirical evidence and any new ideas should be squelched! M-Theory must be banned until they can prove what they say through experiments!
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
3.
Well, I say your full of shit and your delusional. And you better take it, when you claim this publicly without any support for it. You see. This is the scientific way. You think if a scientist tomorrow went to work and said: You know what. I'm so close to showing that we can indeed go faster the the speed of light. That I'll just claim it. Without showing clear evidence for it. That scientist would be laughed out and would never find work again. So why should I accept it of you?
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 1)
you proved to me over and over you are not clever at all. You obviously misunderstood the implications I put forth (again) for my analogy. You basically said I can't say something without evidence, despite the fact that SOMEONE ELSE asked me a question and I was answering it. When I say its my own personal experience, OBVIOUSLY you don't take it as hard evidence. When you ask someone for evidence, when they already stated its personal experience, then it just makes you a fool.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
1)
It's not about being clever at all. It's about being honest of what one can know. I may have profound experiences in my life. But I cannot on that basis claim it true for everyone else. I have no evidence for it.
And damn right I don't take personal anecdotal evidence as proof. Do you know anyone who does? If so, slap them for me.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 7)
and tell me how does background radiation and calculating it backwards account for "real evidence" that the big bang occurred? isn't that just speculating a big bang occurred, since its just speculating it? be honest.
and you still didn't answer my question, about you saying astral projection violates the laws of physics?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 5)
"But what you forget. Is that you don't simply claim that it's your experience. You claim that this is part of the world. Since you can do it. That is something that you HAVE to substantiate."
You are basically saying ideas, hypothesis, theories, should not be shared until there is real hard evidence? Then big bang theory, M theory, super position theory, etc should not be allowed to be published? Am I hearing this correctly? Any new ideas or claims should not be allowed?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
5) No, what I'm saying is that if you have a hypothesis. You cannot claim that it is factual without further testing it. And only when a huge body of substantial empirical evidence is explained with your hypothesis. Only then does it become a theory. Which it will remain until we have empirical evidence of another hypothesis which explains all the evidences better than the current theory. But you do not have a theory. You barely have a hypothesis. Of which rest no evidence.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 6)
Oh, and another thing. You stated I was assertive and I speculated on the world. Please quote me exactly on what I've said to make you think this? Do not just put words in my mouth and quote me exactly.
Also, you said astral projection violates the laws of physics. Explain.
You failed to contribute to anything nor offer any new insight. You don't even know how to formulate your questions properly. You contributed absolutely NOTHING, except for being an annoyance.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
6)
Yes, I say that your assertive and you speculate. You have yet any empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact.
You said you can astral project. Now, that isn't just a small claim. And it's one which you claim as fact. Without ruling out any other potential hypothesis before you make. Ie, you speculate on the outcome of your experiences
As far as contributing nothing. Untrue, I'm questioning your claim. It's the most important aspect of this disc.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 2)
I said it was "anecdotal" (i already explained the definition to you)
Then you said "I say that your assertive and you speculate. You have yet any empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact."
Is there a problem here? (I don't expect you to get this, because you already shown how stupid you are)
Seriously, if you don't understand this, you should label yourself as a idiot
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 8)
and yes, you are useless because you contribute NOTHING at all. You think asking for evidence on youtube is making a contribution? especially, when I already said i didn't conduct any scientific research? Is that really making a contribution?
Watching Carls Sagan and jacking off to James Randi and then demanding evidence on youtube is hardly makign a contribution.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
8)
Critique is the foundation of the scientific method. Without it you merely have conformity. Which teaches you nothing. Either deal with it or stop claiming it. And it's Carl Sagan. Well, I'm more of a Hitchens jackoffer. /me shakes head. You really think calling me names and doing ad hoc attacks are going to work on me? The way of the deluded mind indeed.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Lol, It's not an ad hoc attack, its just relaying personal experience. There's a difference. Fool. did you realize the entire debate, you manage to contribute nothing at all? The reason why I believe you are stupid is because you merely repeated yourself over and over saying science requires evidence. You do not dare to go in more depth, leading me to believe you can not articulate anything greater than what you keep repeating.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
No, it's ad hoc attacks because you focus on me and what I might potentially be. Instead of focusing on the issue at hand. You have not shown anything that would indicate that you can indeed astral project. You haven't bothered to exclude any other explanations.
Yes, I do repeat myself again and again. What is in-debt? Where is your support? There is none. You cannot merely claim it's anecdotal as if everyone else should accept it on authority. I cannot test your claim.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Did I say I was conducting a scientific experiment? No? I was telling someone my personal experience, so why do you ask for scientific evidence?
Questioning someone for scientific evidence, when they did not conduct scientific is stupid. What could you have possibly gained in doing so? Nothing, which makes you stupid for asking in the first place.
If you want to learn more, u observe, research, experiment, test, repeat. That's the scientific method.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Science isn't about some idiot sitting behind the computer saying "give me evidence". Believe me, there's much more to it.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Nor is it about some idiot behind the computer claiming stuff he can't substantiate.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 At least I experiment with the world, while you the idiot sits behind the computer demanding for evidence.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
How do you know that your not just blowing smoke up your own ass? Critique is how we know which hypothesis to keep and which to disregard. Only those who endure that vigorous testing stand valid.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 First off, I clearly stated it was anecdotal, meaning they were just stories of personal experience. I didn't expect anyone to take my word, since I already warned they were just anecdotes. If you want to test my claims, then you may, since the methods are objective.
Second, How does "critiquing" online prove anything? How does asking for evidence prove anything at all? Especially when I said I didn't conduct a scientific experiment? If you want proof, go experiment yourself.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
I understand that you feel unfairly critiqued when you have posted a disclaimer. But if you failed to understand that your making great claims of how the world works, then I cannot be responsible for that. I have tested your claims. I dream all the time. But alas. No astral projection. Nor should it fall to me to DISPROVE your claims. It is your obligation to show why they are valid.
Well, my critique of you, keeps others from buying blissfully into our unfounded claim.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 That kind of logic is fallacious. How is it my obligation to prove astral projection, just because I experienced it? That's like saying, You have to prove what is consciousness, just because you are conscious or the meaning of life, just because you are living? Everyone experiences gravity, but that doesn't make it their sole duty to define it.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
That kind of logic is not fallacious. It's not about being curious. It's about not claiming something you cannot substantiate. You can create any hypothesis and discuss that at length all you like. Just don't claim is factual until you can substantiate it.
On gravity. You know, before Newton it was believed that elements wanted to divert to it's natural state. It was four primary elements, earth, water, wind and fire. They belonged in their own stratosphere. Was that true?
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 It is fallacious, because your logic says everyone in Newton's era should have had evidence for gravity, because they experienced it? You basically said if you experience something, you should have evidence for it.
Again, I don't know if you picked this up yet, but I said it was anecdotal, so how did i say it was factual? I was sharing my observations with someone else, unless you find that illegal?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Gravity is there. The problem was that people misunderstood what it really was.
Religious conformity kept it so for nearly 2000 years.
And I already said. You cannot simply claim it's anecdotal and in the same sentence claim it's true. Have you exhausted every other explanations which doesn't violate the current explanation of physics?
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 The difference is you can travel to different places merely by thinking of it. The biggest distinction between dreaming and astral projection is you actually feel like you conscious in another plane. Again, these are anecdotes, but you can try it yourself.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Maybe it is like you claim. Why don't you go to the suit at the Atlantis hotel in Dubai and see who is renting it at the time. Then send a note to someone who can check that validity. Do that as a double blind a couple of hundred times and get back to me.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80
"Have you exhausted every other explanations which doesn't violate the current explanation of physics?" This sentence grammatically incorrect and it doesn't make sense, but I think you were trying to say explanation violate physics? Explain, how does it violate physics? i don't think you've ever taken a physics class in your life nor do you really understand what physics teaches.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Oh please. Even if so that quantum physics may indicate that two quantum particles can respond to each other over distances of space. Does not mean it can over huge distances. Nor does it mean your mind are able to use that to it's advantage if true. You need to understand that what works on the particle level doesn't easily transferred to the greater level we exist in. According to the laws of the very large it cannot be done. So it violates current explanation of physics.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 What do you mean if something happens on a particle level doesn't easily transfer to the great level we exist in? That's like saying genes have no effect on us at all, because its so tiny? That's absurd.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
No. It simply means that the effect it has one the very tiny level, is not the same effect it has on the very large. Take the strong nuclear force. Which has no to little effect on the very large. But on the atom level keeps the atom together instead of pushing it apart. It's not automatic that smaller forces can be transferred to the very large. So, even if it is that quantum particles can respond to each other over large space. Does not mean you can do it in your brain.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 The effects on the small levels obviously creates the effects on the larger level.... there is obviously a important reason why big bang theory falls apart in the quantum level and that is what created the universe.. to disregard it is to disregard the nature of true reality. everything is connected and so there is obviously a connection to it
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
It might just be a case of accurate measurements. Or simply not having good enough models. But you need to remember that the quantum level breaks down on the very large as well. It goes both ways. The evidences conflict. Does not mean both are complete untrue.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 How does your critique help in anyway? If anything, you are only telling people not to experiment and sit on the computer and ask for evidence? Look, I'm sure criticizing psychics or scientologists has its value, because they take advantage of the public, but astral projection is a FREE METHOD anyone can experience. If anything, you are hindering people from experimenting/experiencing consciousness in another level. You actually impede human progress by telling them not to experiment
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
I may only be hindering if your claims are true. Isn't it? If you believe your hypothesis to be true. Why don't you do some vigorous testing where you can narrow down and substantiate how it works. Give it to two others who can pick apart your vigorously and test it themselves. In what ever method they think are sufficient. Once that is overcome, you can submit it to peer review in a science journal where everyone can scrutinize your claim. This is what every other scientist do,
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 We've discussed it before... I told you, its not as easy as you make it out to be. I don't know how to get into a astral projection state on command and i do not have the time to practice it. If it was possible, I would have done it already. and I know how science work....... I don't know why you think you need to explain this to me... but If you want to know how difficult it is, why don't you try it yourself?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
If it's 1 in1000 does not matter. It is that one time that you claim you can that matters. Why don't I try it myself? Well I do try continuously, but I only dream. Alas. Plus, I think it's bogus wishful thinking. Only with "anecdotal" evidence.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 If you truly want experiments done, you are better off asking people like Dr. Albert Taylor or those who are more experienced in astral projection. I don't see how criticizing astral projection does any good though? Because it does not take an advantage over anybody or their money? People can go try and experiment with it if they like and it hurts nobody. If anything, people may actually experience something profound and it would open up new questions on reality.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Simply because it doesn't rob people of their money it robs them of their faculties. It teaches people that wishful thinking is ok. And that you don't have bother with substantiate your claims with evidence as long as it makes you "feel" good.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I'm starting to get a sense that you are just following a set of ideas you've learned and you are regurgitating them. It feels to me like, you watch a bunch of skeptics video, decided to ask for evidence on the internet and declare it in the name of science...To follow a set of "skeptic" belief is the same as following a bunch of "religious" belief. You don't think for yourself and you are acting through a belief you picked up.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Yes, I do watch "skeptic" videos. As I do watch religious ones. I judge your claims on it's validity. You have not shown any. I don't care if you try to psychoanalyze me as to excuse so you can continue your own beliefs. Do that as you may. But your claims stands on their own. Either you substantiate them. Or you don't and we ignore them.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You sound like you watch skeptic videos. You almost sound like you don't have a mind of your own. Do you know how christians preach the bible without thinking twice about what they are saying? Well you sound like your preaching skepticism, without thinking twice about what you are saying.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Continue these ad hoc attacks all you like. My motives might be as they are. They do nothing towards your own claims at all.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 And also, let me define my experience for astral projection more clearly, so if one day you experience it, you'll realize it is truly objective. To achieve astral projection, while you are lucid dreaming, you think of your real body that is sleeping. The dream will go black and you will feel your body float upwards until you regain sight. Once this happens, you are in astral projection and it feels like you are awake as if you were conscious right now.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
This sounds very much like a normal dream to me. We do after all dream some weird stuff don't we? How do you know it's truly know it's astral projection? Can you wake up and claim something you have no knowledge about before you went into the dream? Ie, a test?
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 "This sounds very much like a normal dream to me." You can't distinguish something, If you never experienced it.
"It teaches people that wishful thinking is ok."
There is nothing remotely related to wishful thinking? How is it wishful thinking?
Look, I sort of get an idea of you that you don't really think much for yourself. I don't see how this is wishful thinking and I don't see how "critiquing" does anything for this matter.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
It's wishful thinking if it's untrue and you still believe it anyway. Believing despite evidence is faith, but it is also dishonest.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 It sounds like you adopted a religious arguing mentality and you use it as your filter in the world. Astral Projection has nothing to do with wishful thinking? What is there anything to be wishful about for astral projection? Just name one thing.. anything ? It's not based on faith, its either you experience it or you didn't? You clearly are using repetitive modes of arguments that has nothing to do with this one. Stop and learn to look at things for what it is.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
No, it's using an approach for which we can get certain knowledge. Either you follow it or you don't. But don't expect others to simply "buy" into your unsubstantiated claims.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Again, we've already discussed my "unsubstantiated claims" The method is objective, anyone can learn it. Just like how science's experiments are objective and anyone can test it. It's out there for you to test.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Well, I've tested it last time I went to bed. And every night of my life. And I've not experienced it once.
Secondly. You simply do not get this notion that it's: Your claim. You substantiate it. It's not the other peoples place to disprove your continued ramblings as if they are valid. They are not valid until you can substantiate them. This is the important distinction between mare speculation and actual knowledge.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You don't test it while you are in bed.. you test it while you are already in a lucid dream state.
And I never said i set out to conduct a scientific experiment to prove it. I told you, your logic is flawed, because it states "just because you experience something means you must validate it?" Then I expect you to validate what connects general relativity with quantum theory, since you are living in this world?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I think your idea of criticizing things is your way of helping science. I think you failed to realize that science is to probe, experiment, question everything to find an answer. People need to be open minded to learn new things, but skeptical about things so they won't be fooled.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Your simply fully wrong here. Being skeptical about the claims we hold is a sign of an inquisitive mind which doesn't accept something as true on authority. Maybe our current understanding is untrue. But the current understanding must be part of the solution because of it's extreme accuracy. Being inquisitive is all well and good. But you also need to question your knowledge as well.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Look, I agree with being skeptical, but it comes to a poitn where you need balance. You need to be open minded to actually learn something new, but you must also scrutinize the things you pick up. You can't just be a mindless robot saying I will be skeptical about everything. You need to actually experiment and research and learn for yourself.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Yes, I agree. You need to be inquisitive. But you also cannot simply claim anything you like without evidence. Well, you can. But don't expect anyone else to accept them. I also said that it might be as you said. But we had no way of knowing if it was simply you blowing smoke up your own ass or if it was indeed true.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 scientific method is observing, researching, experimenting, testing. You say you are too lazy for all the above, which just makes you idiot who only knows how to say, "where's the evidence". Repeating that line contributes NOTHING AT ALL to science, especially in the format you ask for. Everything you contributed is baseless and worthless.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
It's also about excluding all other explanations. Well, I have dreams as well. Why are yours different? What makes you think your actually outside your own body? Can you exclude that it's not simply a vivid dream? Have you done a double blind test to show clear evidence towards the validity of your claims? I am not the one making the claim. You have a responsibility to show support. And if I contain myself on merely critiquing you. That is perfectly valid of my position.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Again, I said it was not conducted in a scientific experiment, so does it look like I have done experiments? Why are you unable to comprehend this? If you actually read what I've said, I said I followed the technique that I've learned and I experimented on it. There was a discernible difference between a vivid dream and what I experienced. I did not do scientific research, so why are you asking for scientific evidence?
Flows234 1 year ago
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Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 7)
If you are truly against people who speculate on the world and is assertive about claims that are not yet proven. Go write to Dr. Edward Witten at the Institute of Advanced Study located in Princeton, New Jersey. Please write to him and tell him to stfu, because he has no evidence.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
7) No, I said you shouldn't present as fact and speculate on the outcome of your hypothesis as if it was true without having support for it. I highly doubt Witten claims his hypothesis are valid without having substantial evidence for it submitted in peer review. Now, notice how I said evidence. Mathematical evidence might be indicative. But it is by no means empirical without testing it in the real world. That is why m theory is by many not science because it cannot ever be tested.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 1) Lol, You continue to prove to me you have poor comprehension skills. You answered my replies, point by point which does not make sense, because it suppose show step by step of what has occurred. I guess breaking things down in tiny bits are still too big for you to digest. I'm going to say this again, but I know that you are too dumb to understand this, but here goes nothing.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 6)
You said "its about being honest to oneself" and you need "empirical evidence to support your hypothesis and you present it as fact". Then you have to be honest about many of the theories that science, put out, because ultimately they are just speculation and so you are suggesting they should be banned?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
*cont* the orbit of Mercury precisely to the second in space, with his theory on general relativity. He could have claimed that all he like until he died. But unless someone else could test his predictions. He was invalid and of no consequence. And you say that; at least you try to explore. True, that is a valiant effort. But if you cannot substantiate with evidence what you do. You will continue to be invalid in the eyes of others. Because it must be able to be tested against.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 4)
So let me CLEARLY, conclude your mistakes for the first portion what has happened, since you have poor comprehension.
1) You told me I had no right to answer someone's question, despite the fact they were asking me it
2) You asked for evidence, despite the fact that I made it clear that these were just anecdotes
3) You want to prohibit people from sharing ideas without evidence. Now, There are no empirical evidence showing the big bang occurred, so should it be banned?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
4)
1. I said no such thing.
2. No, I said you needed to show evidence for the claims you make. That is a responsibility you have regardless of what I ask for or not.
3. On the contrary. Gladly share ideas. Just don't claim your hypothesis is fact when it is unproven. And no, your wrong. There is evidence for the big bang. It's called background radiation. And if you calculate all the expanse of the universe today and run it backwards. It shows some 13billion years. That is evidence.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 4)
Also you said
"I said you shouldn't present as fact and speculate on the outcome of your hypothesis as if it was true without having support for it."
"There is evidence for the big bang. It's called background radiation. And if you calculate all the expanse of the universe today and run it backwards. It shows some 13billion years. That is evidence."
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 If you have any further questions, reread my previous posts. I've already reiterated myself several times, which you seem to fail to understand.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 3) You don't even know what evidence you are asking for. You don''t even know what astral projection is. To prove that you don't know what it is, You say "it violates our understanding of physics." Tell me
How does it violate the what we understand about physics?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Even if I say do evidence, what does that prove? you said "Do a 100 blind test. If they give you a better result than pure guessing. Your onto something." You also prove here you don't know what astral projection is, because you said to prove astral project, you should do it 100 times and if its better than guessing, than its real.
Okay, I've done it 100x and its better than guessing. Now what? Is that all the evidence you want?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I didn't have a link to astral projection idiot. "Not only did you link having some form of dream to astral projection."
It was a link to a news report about a girl who seen her deceased father you idiot. This proves to me you don't comprehend information before you speak.
"something you could only describe as a very real dream"
GO read it over. i distinctly said its discernible from a dream dumb ass. Stop taking my words out of context.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 I've said I've done it through lucid dreaming technique which is not easily replicated. Its not something I practice every night, but it has happened in those few occasions. You are those idiotic skeptics who only know how to demand for evidence. You don't even bother understanding something prior to asking questions. Do I have to simply everything for you? Am I speaking to a child? You are truly frustrating to speak to. I suggest you stop talking to me and go learn something else.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80
"And it's arrogant to thing others should believe what you claim about the physical world on faith. "
Which part of ANECDOTAL did you not understand? Seriously, you never shared your own experiences with someone else? Wtf??
You are truly frustrating to talk to, because you are lacking comprehension skills
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"You are truly frustrating to talk to, because you are lacking comprehension skills"
I'm frustrating you because I'm not giving you any room of authority or personal space of leverage su that I'll respect your belief. It's not enough to claim it's your own experience if your claiming something about the physical world. YOU have a responsibility to support your claims. And saying something on "what if" your claim is true. Is speculation. First your need to give support for the claim.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 No you are frustrating, because you are idiotic, because you can't stand other people sharing their own experiences. For some reason you have to barge in and demand something which no basis of knowledge.
First, I said it was ANECDOTAL you idiot, I don't know how many times I've said this, but obviously you can't comprehend this.
Trust me, you don't sound smart by simply asking for evidence and trying to be skeptical. You sound idiotic, because you speak before you think.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
There is no anecdotal. Either what you say is part of something which is true. Or it is untrue. And you cannot claim it's personal. It's either part of the physical world which you have fallen onto. Or it is untrue. It cannot be simply your experience. And that you try to claim that, shows to me your inability to understand that your actually making a claim of the physical world which you have no foundation to base it on. Have the hypothesis all you like. But so far it's unfounded.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Wtf are you talking about? You are truly a moron.
"you cannot claim it's personal"
Are you against people having conversations with one another or something? Seriously???
Look, its not my problem that you have issues about people having discussions on the internet and its not my problem you need evidence for every claim on the internet. You have some serious issues about the way you talk to people. Seriously, you are pretty dumb.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Did you, or did you not claim you could astral project? Repeatably with techniques? Is that not asserting something about the physical world? That cannot be personal. It can be that only you can do it. But that is something different from what your asking acceptance for. And to be honest. Not only is that quite an extraordinary claim. But an arrogant one as well as your asking us to accept this claim without any evidence. My stupidity might be large. But I don't accept that notion.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Yeah, you are pretty stupid. I don't care if your some idiotic, close-minded, skeptic who only knows how to annoy people online by demanding for evidence without fully understanding the premises someone else conversation.
"your asking us to accept this claim without any evidence"
Again I said its ANECDOTAL you moron.
"Did you, or did you not claim you could astral project?"
Read my last post dumb ass.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"Again I said its ANECDOTAL you moron."
Then you should not claim it at all. Anecdotal does nothing for you. For others it's anecdotal. You however claimed it was true. ie: "I can astral project". I did not make that statement. You did. And you asked us to accept that as your experience. It might be. We have no way of knowing. You need to understand that no one can accept that claim on face value. Personal experience or not. Nor should you accept anyone else to do so either.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You obviously don't know what kind of evidence your asking for, yet you still ask. I'm all for skepticism, but the way you go about it is idiotic. All you know how to do is say, "where is proof" and that MEANS NOTHING. There is a reason why proof needs to be able to be repeated and its so other scientists can do it themselves. Why don't you go try it for yourself then instead of being stupid on the internet?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You are one of those idiotic wannabe skeptics, who only knows how to ask for evidence. You don't have any basis for your questions. Seriously, I don't know where to begin to tell you how stupid you are.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You sound like you have no clue about what I've said earlier and you continue to ramble about irrelevant nonsense, because you can't comprehend what I've posted. You read one of my lines and take it out of context, showing me how you approach your information. You are a hypocrite, because you are the one who reads one line and takes it as something else.
Its frustrating to have to read your idiotic posts.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
Was it me who claimed I could astral project?
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Finally, you say "Go find out what it means by doing solid research and then present it to others who can check if you have not done any mistakes."
Again, I will say you need to learn to comprehend before you speak. You jumped into a conversation that you were clueless about. If you actually read, think, before you talk, then you would understand what I've said are experiences that do not occur frequently, therefore impossible to test.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"You jumped into a conversation that you were clueless about."
No, the following sentence was all I needed to understand where you where coming from:
"Although they may be anecdotal, it proves to me there is more to this world than what is said about it."
It told me everything I needed to know about your own curiosity, your approach to knowledge and how you structured your quest towards finding information. It might be pretentious of me to say so. But non the less true.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Are you serious???? You just started babbling about nonsense to me, after you a read line of my post? Wtf? Now that tells me how you approach your knowledge, you hypocrite.
I was telling aura, that my personal experiences are anecdotal, but they prove something to me?
Did you not read what I've said? Do you understand why anomalies can't be reproduced? You don't even know the time frame them neither. Do you not see how hypocritical/stupid you sound?
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You do not come off pretentious, but a bit idiotic to me. You don't comprehend my posts, you read a piece of it and started babbling, you say things that have no relevance to my post, you don't seem to know what your talking about, and then you accuse me of how I find my information??
Tell me, how do I validate my experiences in an empirical way? huh?? give me an answer or stfu and go away, because I feel like I'm talking to someone who is very stupid.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234
"Tell me, how do I validate my experiences in an empirical way?"
I'm not the one making the claims. You are. It's not my responsibility to disprove your unfounded claims. Extraordinary claims needs extraordinary evidence. What your claiming is indeed extraordinary. You say that you can project your thoughts trough space. Ie, astral projection. That is fairly easy to test. Do a 100 blind test. If they give you a better result than pure guessing. Your onto something.
Muthsera80 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 Wtf? Have you been watching too much Carl Sagan??
"It's not my responsibility to disprove your unfounded claims."
Stfu, then don't barge in a conversation that had nothing to do with you. I was telling someone my personal experiences and you just jump in asking for concrete evidence despite understanding my posts. You truly sound stupid. I don't need anyone telling me the scientific method, holy shit. It sounds like you just learned it yesterday or something.
Flows234 1 year ago
@Muthsera80 You were just stating the obvious "go do research, before you present something to the community." Wow, tell me something I don't know... Why didn't you just say, "we need air to live" or something.... There is a reason why we can only gather so much empirical evidence....
Go learn to read and understand something, before you begin speaking and talking nonsense.
Flows234 1 year ago
@auraofgloom after months of ignoring it. I don't know if its really anything, but I should just thought that was a bit strange. Maybe its just a coincidence or something.
Another paranormal experience I've had was seeing my grandfather when was a child. He was murdered and for some reason I still saw him lurking around the house after his death. He actually lived on a different continent, but I would see him looking into the house through a window, from the outside.
Flows234 1 year ago
If christians were enable to keep their fundamental laws, slavery would still be prevalent and we would stone people to death for trivial misconducts
Flows234 1 year ago
@Flows234 Actually no- Jesus never bought or owned slaves, killed anyone or told his followers to kill anyone. Slavery was fought by many religious groups-i actually think you will find that there were few-if any- secular groups opposing slavery.
Thats actually not the point- telling someone that they 'have to re-interpret' their holy book because society has changed is basicly saying that people must think what the state says they must think. THATS an idea that will bite the user in the butt.
auraofgloom 1 year ago