christians are retarded... Look into the occult an gain sacred knowledge.. the bible is a tool if you know the symbolism. Freemasons are running this world because of stupid ppl that follow all these myth religions.
As pastors are so found of providing scriptural translations to allow us laypersons to understand the "true" meaing of god's word, let me do the same with regards to "Dr" Greg's speech
We understand the true bullshit that god has established using the talking snake & mythical 1st women
But the non-believer will not acknowledge our bullshit
But we must hold-on to our bullshit for it is what defines our stupidity, our
I think it's interesting that less than 300 years after the death of Jesus, there were so many Christian sects throughout the Roman empire, and there was much debate over the divinity of Jesus, so much so, that Constantine I, probably in an attempt to maintain his empire, called together the leaders of Christianity to settle the issue. So these Christian leaders pretty much voted on it...and now you have Jesus as divine. Much of Christianity is a copy of stories told well before the bible
@TheChristChris ha your funny, i hope your not a biased atheist covered under the name of agnostic, i jus hope not, keep studying truth will find you only if you stay genuine to seeking the truth only if your not a biased atheist covered under the name of agnostic.
@thecount1216 Why would you hope not? No one knows either way, so for any party to say that there is unequivocal proof that a god exists or doesn't exist, is full of shit. I however, think all organised religion is complete BS.
any "presupper" of any Abrahamic religion needs to go to
bahnsenburner.blogspot.com
and prepare to have your arguement incinerated. please post on dawson's blog so he can talk some sense into you and keep you from walking around in confused circles of non reason for the rest of your life. lol
Faith in christ can sound so good some times you could laugh at it, but it is true as the Bible has told us it is. Faith to christians should be more of something you live out, than something you have. What good is faith if we don't show it to the rest of the world. It isn't something we go into blind either, we have what Jesus left us with to help guide us. Faith has no hard proof, but it is more of something you live by because you truly believe in it.
@alejodaza its not just believing a book, its seeing how it harmonizez with the universe and life in general that makes us believe it. It has no contradictions, no fallacies, and is the greatest book ever written:The Bible. Other books such as greek mythology are just that, myths as where many seccular philosiphers in the time of Jesus wrote about His death and ressurection hence we have proof even there. What do you believe my friend?
@R1queno717 How do you know your religion is right and all the others are false? Where's your proof? All the others claim to have proof of the fallacy of yours... where's your evidence? What makes yours more truthful than the others? Why are you taking this bronze age mythical (1 out of 5 major ones that attempted to explain everything before we knew about science) book so seriously? I'm not attacking anyone I'm just curious.
If you don't believe it now,you never really believed it before,you may have suspected it at one time,but you never really believed it or you would still believe it.You have always hated God you were just looking for some loop hole to make yourself feel comfortable enough to admit you really didn't believe it.
FAITH, as in the religious use of faith, is the hook to keep you locked in, even when you doubt. It's one of the ultimate fear scams of the religious condition. It can keep you from ever fully leaving.
For sure. Why doesn't God just send his son to earth to die for our sins so that we can be forgiven? If only God wrote a book for us. All our problems would be solved...
Why does God need to send His son to forgive us? Can't he forgive us with nothing in return? Oh I'm sorry, I'm a fallen man so I don't get to complain. If only God didn't care, why would he need to write a book for us?
I am the master of your fear. I am your worst nightmare. I am god's greatest foe. I am the one and only prince of Hell. Futile prayers lead the way to the eye of suffering. In the darkest nights where you can not hide. In the deepest woods I watch over you. You'll embrace me while your god is defeated. I shall show you to the euphoria of the pit. Your seven pleasures will come to reality. I am the master of your world. Shiver from the presence of my dark power. You are now under my command.
Use Isaiah 10 in the Bible it says that God will destroy Assyria and there are so few left a child can count them. Look at the Assyrian Genocide that took place 1914 to 1920, killing off soo many of them and taking their country. God is patient. what he says doesnt have to take place over night.look at Isreal. How did they get the land back after WWII? pure luck or prophecy in the Bible? We dont talk to be right. We just dont believe that you should die without hearing the truth before judgement
Honestly peeps? Even Satan and his demons cannot deny God. wiccanstar12420 wants us to defend God without our Bible. You mean make it an even playing field? Have you ever picked up the Bible? You cant for very long because it calls all men bad without Jesus. It tells you your WRONG! No man wants that. Pride is not worth losing. Read up to after Noah, in the Bible, before him no one went to a mountain to fast because the earth was flat. After the flood mountains appeared and then the used them!
I see that atheist like to talk about God so much...there must be belief since you atheist talk about God so much..as you speak his name..he becomes stronger in your heart..
by your logic, if people talk about how much they hate murderers and child molesters and rapists, they secretly love them, or they'd not talk of them. OK.
nicely put Luko "As Christians we accept one foundational truth -- God -- and everything else makes sense. An atheist denies God and has to accept incredible explanations for everything else. It takes more faith to deny God than to believe in Him."
seriously? finding incredible explinations is what life is about...unlocking the mysteries to everyday life. really, i think christians are getting scared, because they know the world of science, is proving so much, that christians could not. there is no foundation of truth, because IT CANNOT BE PROVED...give me one other reason BESIDES FAITH AND THE FREAKING BIBLE and please, really try to convince me why i should beleive in something that just is a figment of the imagination
The world of science relies on laws that have their foundation in God, even if they dont acknowledge it. So, science cannot exist in a vacuum, there are things that must be true.."truths" if you will, for science to even be possible.
Truth "cannot" be proved? There is some confusion there, what do you mean by truth?
You should not believe things that figments of your imagination, the question you are begging is" Is He?" I submit the evidences for the God of the bible are objective.
"There is no foundation of truth"? How does one then "unlock the mysteries to everyday life"? How is science "proving so much" if there is no "foundation of truth" and it "cannot be proved"? I don't seem to understand. May I say that your presuppositions do not permit you to believe even if all the evidence in the world is right in front of you. Even if God were to write the truth in the clouds you would come up with another excuse for not believing it.
i don't want to hear all your religous bull shit on believing shit that CANNOT BE PROVED...nothing anyone will ever say or do will change my mind otherwise and all the christian bullshit about not believing in "him" and burning in hell for all eternity...why don't you all get over the fact that your really just scared of there being nothing, feeling nothing when you die...there is no heaven, there is no hell, so stop your fucking complaints and trying to convert people to your fake beliefs.
if you've already decided "nothing will convince you" you're no different than Christian idiots who will never be convinced they are wrong. You are no different than a racist or child molester who will never agree they are wrong.
are you educated? are you qualified to reproach the work of Dr. Bahnsen? you've never taken an introduction to logic. have you studied science? why are you confusing certainty with bigotry and sexual perversion? because you are uneducated, you dont know how to construct logical arguments. I would encourage you to stay in school, whatever your personal pursuits, and dont write second grade criticisms underneath the great Doctor.
Yes I am educated, in biological science actually, but since it was not from a Christian college, you'll probably say I'm brainwashed by satanic evolutionists.
What would make me qualified to reproach the Great Doctor you worship? I'm not confusing certainty with bigotry, but let's see you tell the difference.
You would consider me indoctrinated. Ive studied theology and philosophy under Christian tutors at the graduate level.
In physics there is a growing adherence to whats called emergence, I would encourage you to read Rob Laughlin's " a diff Universe" he isnt a christian and you'll learn a great deal about science. To critique the doctor, you would need to be acquainted with philosophy, theology and a great deal of history. also an intro to logical constructs would help you make your case.
I don't care if you're indoctrinated, whether you have knowledge, intelligence or logic is based on your behavior, not your experience, you can unlearn or intentionally act against your learning experience and it can reflect badly on you.
If Laughlin's book is about cosmology, I will admit now it's not my field and probably won't read it soon, but thanks for the note.
totally wrong. If God wrote my name in clouds in 30 seconds from now, I promise you I'll start believing. He can call my home phone too, I'll know it's him.
You're right. Apart from the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit you will most assuredly not believe. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44
No one cares that you want The Creator of the universe to verify His existence to you through your senses at your convenience. I want Jenn love Hewitt to call me, but when she doesnt I dont claim she doesnt exist.
Ha, you're an idiot, nobody claims JLH is omnipotent or omniscient, we can call accept that she is limited, and cannot, or does not answer calls of everybody.
Will you admit in return that the fact God doesn't answer every prayer is proof he's not unlimited and all powerful and all love to all people (dont give me the "not all are deserving" excuse).
God does not answer every prayer. I believe that statement true, logical, and consistent with our experience.
the question of why prayers go unanswered would depend on what the prayer request is. does Bill Gates not giving me money mean that he is not able to? more likely, he is too rich and busy to cater to my whims, much less the million others that would get in line behind me to make requests. Youve confused the Christian God with a genie.
Yes, the fact Gates doesn't give means he is not able to. too busy and too rich is part of "not able" (any excuse would not change the fact)
Yes, I indeed expect God to be a genie (or an all powerful being with no excuses), or else he's no different than a chance. a hope or a limited fallen being like the rest of us.
so you believe in things you can see,.. thats deep.
I mean, why didnt someone else ever make the argument that only things I see are real?? you'd have to be alive 6 or 7 years to put that kind of thing together...
but maybe you could start with Aristotelian logic and empiricism, contrast that to the rational approach mastered by Plato, and call me in ten years when your ready to have a discussion about Eusebius, Augustine, Kant, the reliability of memory and the Revelation of God.
Hahaha, you were the one who was comparing the existence of Jennifer Love Hewitt to the existence of God. If you want to have a deep discussion about the existence of God, I am all ears. You can mention all the philosophers and ideas you want, it doesn't change the fact that your arguments are weak and elementary at best. You made a simple argument that was somewhat lacking, I gave a simple response that was somewhat lacking, but that was enough to disprove your horrific analogy.
I subscribe to Reformed theology, so its quite impossible for me to be wrong. Peter tells us that the word of the Prophets is more certain than His eyewitness account of the glory of Jesus Christ on the mount of Transfiguration.
The Self attestation of Jesus Christ is the answer to all debate.
You make me laugh. What records do we have about Jesus' life and words? Don't say the Bible, because we all know the Bible is an unreliable source full of contradictions, moral atrocities, scientific impossibilities, and historical inaccuracies. Would you quote a history textbook that denied the holocaust ever happened? No, of course you wouldn't, so find me a reliable source that backs up your claims, not one that says pi = 3.00.
Part #1: Hahaha, still with the jokes. Are you a comedian? Those people did not each give an account of Jesus' life outside of the Bible. The only one that did was Josephus. I don't believe Locke and Rembrandt lived during Jesus' lifetime so unfortunately they aren't accounts of his life. There are many contradictions within the Bible, have you read it? What about the Bible saying pi = 3.00. God calling for genocides and infanticides? What about the Earth being 6,000 years old?
and you think claiming the OT God is immoral is something new?
thats not a contradiction, thats a silly 21st century american hearing that the Hittites were destroyed and going " I have decided in my wisdom and jurisprudence that God was wrong to do that"
your day in the dock will come.
So you trust carbon dating or potassium oxide dating? Lyell and Huxley constructed a lie called uniformitarianism, and 3 generations of Americans have been raised on it.
The sea was then cast; it was made with a circular rim, and measured ten
cubits across, five in height, and thirty in circumference.
The circumference of that circle would have to be 31.4 not 30.0 because the circumference of a circle is found by multiplying the diameter of that circle by pi. 10 x 3.14 = 31.4. Find me a circle that exists in reality with a diameter of 10 and a circumference of 30 and I will convert to Christianity instantly.
I would be starting in the NFL if it wasnt for that one practice back in high school I was late for, man it was that one practice that cost me my whole NFL career!!
thats what you sound like.
The NFL wants lazy bums like me who make excuses about as much as Christianity wants a lazy bum like you.
Morality, absolutes, prophecy, induction, memory, objectivity, metaphysics, all of human history and culture ...
yeah it was that one verse that kept you off the team,
That's one verse, there are many more verses which contradict common knowledge. You sound like someone who is so unable to accept the truth and live by knowledge that you refuse to see reason. I didn't arbitrarily decide that it is wrong to kill babies, I'm sure you can agree that's not what Christ would have wanted us to do. Strange that's exactly the sort of things the supposed god he is the son of was causing in the old testament. Contradiction, anyone?
Part #2: Morality is not on your side. The god of the Bible is immoral by his own standards! "Thou shall not murder," meanwhile he's sending genocides in Joshua. Immoral and hypocritical. A loving God that condemns his own children to suffer eternally? Let me ask you, is there anything your children could ever do that would lead you to lock them in the basement and torture them for as long as possible? If they said they didn't love you, maybe? Because that's the way of the biblical god.
God creating everyone doesnt mean their all His children, look at Genesis 6 or read Romans 8-13 or John 8:44 or Matt 7:21
or try Joel 3 where God pronounces judgement on egypt for violence against Judah, or the 13 times in Isaiah that God destroys the nations of His enemies. He also judges His people Israel for their wickedness and idolatry.
If my child misbehaves I will punish him bc I love him.
Part #3: Absolutes? Prophecy? Someone outside of the Bible which I've already proven is an unreliable source predicted Jesus? The Bible says that Jesus' second coming was supposed to have happened during the lifetime of his apostles. Too bad the Bible's wrong again. Who saw that coming? All of human history and culture is not on your side either... Last time I checked there have been countless religions in the past that have evaporated, and there are many other religions being practiced
why would you look outside of Gods word for prophecy? I would agree with you that there is no prophecy apart from the Inspired Scriptures. Jesus' 2nd coming has alot to do with the greek parousia, and there are schools that grew from your keen observation.
Preterism, historicism, and futurism loosely.
what happened to Jerusalem in 70 ad?
was that in the lifetime of the apostles?
religions are as numerous as opinions, but only one word of God.
Part # 4: right now. All of human history and culture is unfortunately not on your side. That one verse regarding pi is not what converted me from my former Christian ways, I didn't even know about that particular verse until after I became an atheist. The difference between you and me is that I have an open mind. I am mature, intelligent, and honest enough to accept that the Bible is an unreliable source therefore there is no proof of the Christian god's existence. You are in denial,
and unable to admit the fact that there is no way of knowing what will happen to you when you die, and you will never see your dead friends and family again. It's perfectly understandable. It's also pitiful and pathetic, but understandable nonetheless.
your young, dont commit your mind to the hopeless and purposeless universe of the atheist.
there is a better way to live your life, but it wont be easy. you have to be well coached and mentally tough to play on the field. likewise, you must be well read to make consistent arguments.
check out Josh Mcdowell " Ready Defense" I read him when I was 16, and he gave me all the archaeological and religious facts I needed to always be right when I argue. I didnt read John Calvin til I was 25.
" dont commit your mind to the hopeless and purposeless universe of the atheist."
I am an atheist and I can confirm that this comment is rubbish. My life has purpose and I at no point feel hopeless.
I am also happier, healthier and an awful lot nicer than many many theists.
You young, you commit your mind to facts and evidence. Do not believe in things simply because you are told too. If you think that the world has a supernatural creator do not limit yourself to just Christianity!
@watermelonygoodness i've heard a lot of people that have hangups with Christianity, but never based on geometrical problems LOL, there's a first time for everything. anyway the short answer to your criticism is that back then, "a cubit" was not as precise as today's mathematical understandings, it was an approximation. period. you are the one making the mistake of applying post-industrial age standards to ANE craftsmanship.
@UltimatePastorDave How is it funny that the one problem (out of hundreds) I have brought to your attention is mathematical? Are you saying that we should hold god to a different standard wherein he is not expected to be able to do math? He doesn't understand numbers? Which are universal, not exclusive to humanity? I've never heard that before. The short answer to your criticism is that is doesn't matter what the unit is. It cannot be ten units in diameter and thirty units in circumference.
@watermelonygoodness God is the one who has given you your faculties and the capacity to even do math. look at God's creation and you will see His perfections. i think you missed the point with regards to that particular construction project in the book of Kings, there is a difference between making an approximation and making a mistake. people round figures in math and in construction all the time - not because they're wrong, it's for the sake of simplicity when precision is not important.
@UltimatePastorDave I thought the Bible was the word of god. You're saying god makes mistakes, then. You're saying god messed up and forgot how to calculate the circumference of a circle.
@watermelonygoodness God knows everything and He is never wrong. approximations are different from mistakes. for example, a genius can know the exact number and still approximate for the sake of simplicity when precision is not important. as is the case here - rounding off to make an ancient piece of furniture basically a certain round shape without using any of the modern tools we use today does not make it "wrong," it's just communicating to an ANE craftsman in ways that make sense to them.
@watermelonygoodness it is not impossible mathematically to follow an approximation. but since you insist on being so precise, there are ways for this piece of furniture to be perfectly round by taking into account the width of the brim, as a former skeptic, I've found that there are answers to difficult passages in the scriptures, i encourage you to search them out, rather than use the difficulties as excuses to justify your rebellion against God
@UltimatePastorDave I'm not "rebelling" against god. If you were ever a skeptic, you would still be one. Being skeptical is a trait of personality, critical thinking isn't something you "used to do." Well. Maybe it is in your case, I don't know. I can assure you, this pi thing is not the reason I don't believe in god. It is merely one of many funny little flaws in the "infallible" word of god.
@watermelonygoodness there's a difference between critical thinking and being committed to skepticism. you are not critically thinking or you would be open to a solution to the 1 Kgs 7 passage. you can't admit that you are rebelling against God b/c that would make you responsible, He created you but you want nothing to do with Him. your problem is not with the (so-called) flaws in the word of God which can be handled with critical thinking, your problem is your commitment to independence.
@UltimatePastorDave "there's a difference between critical thinking and being committed to skepticism. " Nope actually there isn't. It's sad that you don't understand the meaning of words, but maybe one day. "you are not critically thinking or you would be open to a solution to the 1 Kgs 7 passage. " I am open to a solution and I read the one you gave me. "you can't admit that you are rebelling against God b/c that would make you responsible," Wrong again. I won't admit it because then...
@watermelonygoodness you are self-deceived. you have a commitment to skepticism about God's existence, but your greater problem is that you can't see that you have a commitment to skepticism about God's existence, and that is self-deception. you need your unbelief to be God's problem (he didn't prove himself to you well enough), so you're not guilty for not living for him as he commands you to. but your suppression of your knowledge of God is not a morally neutral act. you are guilty already.
@UltimatePastorDave and you are a judgemental prick, but hey, who didn't know that already? Since you speak for god, I guess that since all atheists are so guilty they should be pulled out into the streets and shot then? Or do you get a bitter pleasure in thinking of all of us that don't share your faith for one reason or another roasting in torment forever so you have no need? I guess so, mister know-it-all...
@UltimatePastorDave ...I would be lying. Isn't that a sin? Don't want to piss of the lord he might send another plague to kill all the children in my town!
@watermelonygoodness Oops, what does verse 26 say? "A handbreadth thick." How thick is a handbreadth? 4 inches. The diameter relates to the outside of the object while the circumference relates to the inside. This is a simple observation that anyone with an intellect can ascertain. Such modern-day hubris. As if the artist making this object couldn't measure! Is that really the best you can do?
@prayforfire No, actually. My comment from 2 years ago isn't the best I can do. But it's amazing how many replies I continue to get, two years later, from one stupid post.
@watermelonygoodness Hey broham , things get lost in translation ALL the time in the english version of anything , even numbers... English is a Germanic language far from Hebrew and Greek which the Bibles was written in . Which sucks ... The numbers that the Bibles states for Apple Pie are correct but only in Hebrew . Go to abarim-publications dot calm and find it there . they have a laymans breakdown of the translation .
@watermelonygoodness You presume this object to be flat on a piece of paper like a circle. This is a 3D container with a rim. Its body has one diameter, and the rim another. It's not a contradiction. Think of a beaker with a rim. You can't use the diameter of the rim to calculate the circumference of the body. Rather, this is a clever way of defining the shape with two measurements of separate things, exactly what you'd expect of an inspired document.
@thatotherchap "You presume this object to be flat on a piece of paper like a circle." No I don't. "Think of a beaker with a rim. You can't use the diameter of the rim to calculate the circumference of the body." Actually you can. You most certainly can.
@watermelonygoodness That might be true IF the beaker was perfectly cylindrical where the rim has the same diameter as does the body, but most beakers have a rim that has a larger diameter than does the body. There are thus two different circles being referred to, and thus it is invalid to claim that this refers to the proportions of a single circle. See the image on creation[dot]com/does-the-bible-say-pi-equals-3 for more details.
Part #2: How did Cain reproduce if he and his parents were the only humans in the world? Where did his nameless wife come from? Where are dinosaurs in the Bible? The Bible says the Earth is flat, that's a lie.
God curses the woman and says " From now on you will bear children in pain" meaning prior to that moment reproduction had been going on for some time. If you say that its incest in some way, this was before the law was given on Sinai, so there was no incest. The blood line was untainted. Dinosaurs are in the book of Job,
where does the Bible say the earth is flat?
The sun doesnt actually rise, yet every day weathermen tell us the exact minute the sun will RISE. a contradiction?
idk how this is relevant but i've read da bible cover to cover and its a really good book, but thats all it is...a book, i mean i cant understand how n-e one can believe that actually ever happened
He that doth not believe that there is a God, is more vile than a devil. To deny there is a God, is a sort of atheism that is not to be found in hell.
Basicly he argueing against the "Open mind" method of approach. Even from evidence standpoint someone can refute it.
Your brain works roughly like a comuter. Certain Programs conflict with one another and cant always be put together. A computer with out programing (Open mind) will not even operate.
No matter what.. people have presuppositions. The world around would make no sense (including language) would make no sense with out presupposions.
i dont blame god for not showing himself to me. how can i blame a god that doesnt exist? this man is speaking from a theist point of view and not from a scientific one. crazy.
@a5dr3 re: "Bahnsen responds to that in both the debates on this page"
Does he respond to 2+2=4 too? pioer's statement stands on its own, and is axiomatic. There is no relevant response to it. Atheist generally do not have common world views at all; just one philosophical characteristic (lacking belief in (any) god).
Rubbish. Atheism make a claim. That claim is that God isn't. A claim like this is NOT neutral. If u make the claim, YOU bear the burden of proof. So, where is your proof???
"Rubbish. Atheism make a claim. That claim is that God isn't."
Nope. Read again: atheism is the absence of a god-belief. It's the DISCARDING of a claim. You hear a claim, you don't accept it, you move on. People do this all the time. By your reason, you should justify yourself to that slick car salesman why you DON'T buy that car, and if you don't, you must buy the car. Sorry, it doesn't work that way: YOU make the claim, YOU back it up.
Sorry, which claim? Since you are really an agnostic (since u claim to have no God belief), then why r u on here making any comments about anything relating to God? Or are u just asking questions since u have no God belief from which to make any statements?
@robocopnz: Atheism and agnosticism are not disjoint philosophies. Weak atheism and agnostic atheism are essentially the same thing, and represent the majority of atheists.
Wrong. Theism is simply 'the belief in (a) god(s)'. Theism in itself is not a worldview. Theistic worldviews can be christian, muslim, jewish, mormon, or any other of the theistic worldviews. Just like atheism in itself is not a worldview, but atheists can be objectivists, humanists, buddhists, raelians or even LaVeyan satanists.
Ok, lets define things. A worldview is: 1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. 2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
I can clearly see that theism is a worldview, and atheism as well. thoughts?
All a 'worldview' is, is your belief about reality. As an Athiest, you believe there is no God, and as a Christian I believe there is a God. Those are two different views of reality, making both worldviews.
But a Muslim on the other hand believes just as the Christian does that there is a God, but what God do each of them believe in? I can tell you they don't believe in the same God. So then they have two different beliefs about reality, two different worldviews.
"I can tell you they don't believe in the same God. So then they have two different beliefs about reality, two different worldviews."
So you actually agree with what I said earlier: theism is not a worldview, Christianity and Islam are worldviews. That's the distinction. Same with atheism: atheism is not a worldview, but objectivism and humanism are.
I respectfully disagree with you both (at least how you're wording things). I don't think that it makes sense to speak of atheism, Christianity, and/or Islam (or what have you) as worldviews. But it does make sense to speak of an atheistic worldview, or a Christian worldview, etc. See the distinction?
To say that Atheism and an atheistic worldview are two different things, is wrong. The reason we have two different forms of the word is that we can use them in two different kinds of sentences..For example: 1. Atheism is a worldview
Atheism doesn't cause people to view the world in any particular way. There is no doctrine, dogma, holy books or authorities in atheism to influence us.
Epistemology is the theory of knowledge, all world views have a unique epistemology i.e. a theory of how we come to know anything whatever.
A metaphysic is defined as a theory of reality and one expounds that metaphysic through an epistemology, there is no other rational basis for doing so.
Atheism expounds a view of reality and thus with all other world views expounds this reality as they see it with a particular view to knowledge i.e Epistemology.
With all due respect, you don't seem to have an adequate understanding of the basic philosophical terms that are being used here. These terms are not mine but the terms all philosophers have used down through the history of western philosophy.
You're toying with semantics. You claim that atheism espouses a certain set of beliefs, which is not true. Atheists can and do disagree with one another on almost everything. That ONLY thing we have in common is non-belief in a god. We even disagree as to WHY we have no belief.
I didn't go back to where this exchange began but I don't find your comment about atheists disagreeing on everything genuine. Perhaps in theory they should, but I can't think of any that I've spoken to in years that aren't ultimately empiricists that blather on naively about science. In my experience I've heard, almost without exception, the same epistemologically unaware positivism by way of bad Dawkins arguments over and over again.
Lol, I love Dawkins and your comment about him shows that you don't understand his arguments.
What is naive about science? You lead me to believe that you don't understand basic science.
Some atheists don't agree with everything Dawkins says. Most I've spoken to respect him as a scientist, but they may not agree with the manner in which he represents atheism.
No kidding, you love Dawkins? -There is no such entity science. There is however, the scientific method, which is utterly incoherent without relying on Christian presuppositions. Read Feyerabend and Hume. (You might also want to consider asking questions instead of debating.)
Your claim that science relies on your crackpot religion is just stupid. That is the most absurd statement I've heard in a long time. You obviously don't understand the scientific method.
Awesome dude. You probably know a lot of stuff I dont -Please then justify induction, the reliability of the senses, universal laws of logic, unchanging laws of nature contrasted with your ability to exercise free agency to assess truth claims, all necessary activities for "science" -By the way, what epistemological perspective r u relying on when you challenge the Christian worldview?
Awesome dude. You probably know a lot of stuff I dont -Please then justify induction, the reliability of the senses, universal laws of logic, unchanging laws of nature contrasted with your ability to exercise free agency to assess truth claims, all necessary activities for "science" -By the way, what epistemological perspective r u relying on when you challenge the Christian worldview?
yawn... Evidence is determined by your pressupositions, or is that word too big for you? Why don't you listen to the Bahnsen Stein debate. He covers why only a novice would demand evidence in a worldview debate. In his opening statement he calls it the crackers in the pantry fallacy. Sorry,u don't know enough for me to debate you and I don't have time to teach u basic philosophy.
"Sorry,u don't know enough for me to debate you and I don't have time to teach u basic philosophy."
Hate to bring it to you, a5dr3, but one really does not need much knowledge of philosopy to see the faulty nature of the TAG. NO PREMISE whatsoever is backed up, so no one can be expected to give credence where no credence is due.
Our premises rest on our presuppositions. TAG is logically defensible because it provides rational justification for inductive inference.
Merriam-Websters offers a layman's definition of presupposition which it defines as an antecedent in logic. You have basically said nothing above other than pointing out that our arguments rest on our presuppostions. We readily admit this but what you have failed to acknowledge is that your arguments rest on your presuppositions.
All that we are asking is whether your worldview (as a generic for *any* or *all* atheistic worldviews) can account [i.e. provide rational justification] for universal invariant abstract entities like the laws of logic. If not then your worldview *reduces to absurdity* because it is incoherent.
"Make an argument, and then I will gladly help you see your own presuppositions."
So you say that my arguments rest on presuppositions before I even have made an argument. How can you know this? How do you know by which worldview or philosophy I live?
Of course your arguments rest on presuppositions. The admission that you live according to some *philosophy of life* or *worldview* is an admission that you have at least some basic assumptions.
Demonstrate it then. If I might hazard a guess I'd guess it will start out like this: I trust what I can observe......but please provide the *ground* for your worldview.
christians are retarded... Look into the occult an gain sacred knowledge.. the bible is a tool if you know the symbolism. Freemasons are running this world because of stupid ppl that follow all these myth religions.
matt1821823 2 months ago
@matt1821823 I'm an ashiest and I was offended by your comment.
stonetemplepilot420 2 months ago
@stonetemplepilot420 cool story bro..
matt1821823 2 months ago
@matt1821823
What the fuck is this crazy shit I'm hearing
MCulpa 1 month ago
As pastors are so found of providing scriptural translations to allow us laypersons to understand the "true" meaing of god's word, let me do the same with regards to "Dr" Greg's speech
We understand the true bullshit that god has established using the talking snake & mythical 1st women
But the non-believer will not acknowledge our bullshit
But we must hold-on to our bullshit for it is what defines our stupidity, our
servility, our abjectness & our complete abnication of reason & intellect
LetReasonPrevail1 4 months ago
@LetReasonPrevail1
Let Reason Prevail by insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you
MCulpa 1 month ago
I love the don't forget you exist comment, that is so right on!!!!
canibalcorpse73 6 months ago
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UltimatePastorDave 7 months ago
I think it's interesting that less than 300 years after the death of Jesus, there were so many Christian sects throughout the Roman empire, and there was much debate over the divinity of Jesus, so much so, that Constantine I, probably in an attempt to maintain his empire, called together the leaders of Christianity to settle the issue. So these Christian leaders pretty much voted on it...and now you have Jesus as divine. Much of Christianity is a copy of stories told well before the bible
AaronYoung777 11 months ago
Brilliant mind, humble spirit, eloquent speaker, sadly missed
ILiveInMyParadise 1 year ago
If there are any atheist replying to this video don't forget that you don't exist.
thecount1216 1 year ago 2
@thecount1216 That is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.
TheChristChris 6 months ago
@TheChristChris ha your funny, i hope your not a biased atheist covered under the name of agnostic, i jus hope not, keep studying truth will find you only if you stay genuine to seeking the truth only if your not a biased atheist covered under the name of agnostic.
thecount1216 3 months ago
@thecount1216 Why would you hope not? No one knows either way, so for any party to say that there is unequivocal proof that a god exists or doesn't exist, is full of shit. I however, think all organised religion is complete BS.
TheChristChris 3 months ago
@thecount1216 Uh, sorry. You'll have to clarify that.
Drgamedood 5 months ago
@Drgamedood it'll be more clarified on the day of judgment, idk when that is but you'll know. thats all thats goin to be said
thecount1216 3 months ago
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MrEpictetus 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
any "presupper" of any Abrahamic religion needs to go to
bahnsenburner.blogspot.com
and prepare to have your arguement incinerated. please post on dawson's blog so he can talk some sense into you and keep you from walking around in confused circles of non reason for the rest of your life. lol
actionjackson864 1 year ago
Faith in christ can sound so good some times you could laugh at it, but it is true as the Bible has told us it is. Faith to christians should be more of something you live out, than something you have. What good is faith if we don't show it to the rest of the world. It isn't something we go into blind either, we have what Jesus left us with to help guide us. Faith has no hard proof, but it is more of something you live by because you truly believe in it.
alexhossink1 1 year ago
Pointless bible arguments... so believing in a book to prove that a god exists? Might as well start believing in the Greek gods again!
alejodaza 1 year ago
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mbernal41 1 year ago
@alejodaza its not just believing a book, its seeing how it harmonizez with the universe and life in general that makes us believe it. It has no contradictions, no fallacies, and is the greatest book ever written:The Bible. Other books such as greek mythology are just that, myths as where many seccular philosiphers in the time of Jesus wrote about His death and ressurection hence we have proof even there. What do you believe my friend?
R1queno717 1 year ago
@R1queno717 How do you know your religion is right and all the others are false? Where's your proof? All the others claim to have proof of the fallacy of yours... where's your evidence? What makes yours more truthful than the others? Why are you taking this bronze age mythical (1 out of 5 major ones that attempted to explain everything before we knew about science) book so seriously? I'm not attacking anyone I'm just curious.
HippieDrummer06 11 months ago
@HippieDrummer06 We know that our judeo-christian worldview is the right one because without it, you can't prove anything.
MatsPT 11 months ago
@CIR229 Wake up from what?the truth?Why trade in the truth for a lie?That's just idiotic.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN Brother Greg left us much too soon at such a young age,but he's having a great time with the Lord now.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
I use to believe this crap. lol :)
Blueicm 1 year ago
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@Blueicm 'I use to believe this crap. lol :)''
If you don't believe it now,you never really believed it before,you may have suspected it at one time,but you never really believed it or you would still believe it.You have always hated God you were just looking for some loop hole to make yourself feel comfortable enough to admit you really didn't believe it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
FAITH, as in the religious use of faith, is the hook to keep you locked in, even when you doubt. It's one of the ultimate fear scams of the religious condition. It can keep you from ever fully leaving.
WAKE UP EARTH. It is time.
LookingWithOpenEyes 1 year ago
Alright, so first he brainwashed these people into being closed-minded and "not open to anything..." I wonder what's next.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
Because nobody is able to do it, it's impossible and we shouldn't try. I agree, nobody can be sinless, so we should be proudly sinners.
funwjoshnjenn 3 years ago
For sure. Why doesn't God just send his son to earth to die for our sins so that we can be forgiven? If only God wrote a book for us. All our problems would be solved...
ryank119 2 years ago
Why does God need to send His son to forgive us? Can't he forgive us with nothing in return? Oh I'm sorry, I'm a fallen man so I don't get to complain. If only God didn't care, why would he need to write a book for us?
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
I'm confused... i was being sarcastic... are you ?
ryank119 2 years ago
I was partially sarcastic. Poe rules!
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Furyan4Satan 3 years ago
Use Isaiah 10 in the Bible it says that God will destroy Assyria and there are so few left a child can count them. Look at the Assyrian Genocide that took place 1914 to 1920, killing off soo many of them and taking their country. God is patient. what he says doesnt have to take place over night.look at Isreal. How did they get the land back after WWII? pure luck or prophecy in the Bible? We dont talk to be right. We just dont believe that you should die without hearing the truth before judgement
pankie79 3 years ago
Honestly peeps? Even Satan and his demons cannot deny God. wiccanstar12420 wants us to defend God without our Bible. You mean make it an even playing field? Have you ever picked up the Bible? You cant for very long because it calls all men bad without Jesus. It tells you your WRONG! No man wants that. Pride is not worth losing. Read up to after Noah, in the Bible, before him no one went to a mountain to fast because the earth was flat. After the flood mountains appeared and then the used them!
pankie79 3 years ago
I see that atheist like to talk about God so much...there must be belief since you atheist talk about God so much..as you speak his name..he becomes stronger in your heart..
lukojason1973 3 years ago
by your logic, if people talk about how much they hate murderers and child molesters and rapists, they secretly love them, or they'd not talk of them. OK.
funwjoshnjenn 3 years ago
nicely put Luko "As Christians we accept one foundational truth -- God -- and everything else makes sense. An atheist denies God and has to accept incredible explanations for everything else. It takes more faith to deny God than to believe in Him."
dent3138 3 years ago
seriously? finding incredible explinations is what life is about...unlocking the mysteries to everyday life. really, i think christians are getting scared, because they know the world of science, is proving so much, that christians could not. there is no foundation of truth, because IT CANNOT BE PROVED...give me one other reason BESIDES FAITH AND THE FREAKING BIBLE and please, really try to convince me why i should beleive in something that just is a figment of the imagination
wiccanstar12420 3 years ago
The world of science relies on laws that have their foundation in God, even if they dont acknowledge it. So, science cannot exist in a vacuum, there are things that must be true.."truths" if you will, for science to even be possible.
Truth "cannot" be proved? There is some confusion there, what do you mean by truth?
You should not believe things that figments of your imagination, the question you are begging is" Is He?" I submit the evidences for the God of the bible are objective.
dent3138 3 years ago
"There is no foundation of truth"? How does one then "unlock the mysteries to everyday life"? How is science "proving so much" if there is no "foundation of truth" and it "cannot be proved"? I don't seem to understand. May I say that your presuppositions do not permit you to believe even if all the evidence in the world is right in front of you. Even if God were to write the truth in the clouds you would come up with another excuse for not believing it.
AllSaintsReformed 3 years ago 2
i don't want to hear all your religous bull shit on believing shit that CANNOT BE PROVED...nothing anyone will ever say or do will change my mind otherwise and all the christian bullshit about not believing in "him" and burning in hell for all eternity...why don't you all get over the fact that your really just scared of there being nothing, feeling nothing when you die...there is no heaven, there is no hell, so stop your fucking complaints and trying to convert people to your fake beliefs.
wiccanstar12420 3 years ago
if you've already decided "nothing will convince you" you're no different than Christian idiots who will never be convinced they are wrong. You are no different than a racist or child molester who will never agree they are wrong.
funwjoshnjenn 3 years ago
are you educated? are you qualified to reproach the work of Dr. Bahnsen? you've never taken an introduction to logic. have you studied science? why are you confusing certainty with bigotry and sexual perversion? because you are uneducated, you dont know how to construct logical arguments. I would encourage you to stay in school, whatever your personal pursuits, and dont write second grade criticisms underneath the great Doctor.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Yes I am educated, in biological science actually, but since it was not from a Christian college, you'll probably say I'm brainwashed by satanic evolutionists.
What would make me qualified to reproach the Great Doctor you worship? I'm not confusing certainty with bigotry, but let's see you tell the difference.
How about you?
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
You would consider me indoctrinated. Ive studied theology and philosophy under Christian tutors at the graduate level.
In physics there is a growing adherence to whats called emergence, I would encourage you to read Rob Laughlin's " a diff Universe" he isnt a christian and you'll learn a great deal about science. To critique the doctor, you would need to be acquainted with philosophy, theology and a great deal of history. also an intro to logical constructs would help you make your case.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
I don't care if you're indoctrinated, whether you have knowledge, intelligence or logic is based on your behavior, not your experience, you can unlearn or intentionally act against your learning experience and it can reflect badly on you.
If Laughlin's book is about cosmology, I will admit now it's not my field and probably won't read it soon, but thanks for the note.
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
totally wrong. If God wrote my name in clouds in 30 seconds from now, I promise you I'll start believing. He can call my home phone too, I'll know it's him.
funwjoshnjenn 3 years ago
You're right. Apart from the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit you will most assuredly not believe. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44
reformedradio 3 years ago 2
Basically, unless I believe, I will not believe, can you be a little more obvious, repetitive and circular?
funwjoshnjenn 3 years ago
No one cares that you want The Creator of the universe to verify His existence to you through your senses at your convenience. I want Jenn love Hewitt to call me, but when she doesnt I dont claim she doesnt exist.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago 2
Ha, you're an idiot, nobody claims JLH is omnipotent or omniscient, we can call accept that she is limited, and cannot, or does not answer calls of everybody.
Will you admit in return that the fact God doesn't answer every prayer is proof he's not unlimited and all powerful and all love to all people (dont give me the "not all are deserving" excuse).
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
God does not answer every prayer. I believe that statement true, logical, and consistent with our experience.
the question of why prayers go unanswered would depend on what the prayer request is. does Bill Gates not giving me money mean that he is not able to? more likely, he is too rich and busy to cater to my whims, much less the million others that would get in line behind me to make requests. Youve confused the Christian God with a genie.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Yes, the fact Gates doesn't give means he is not able to. too busy and too rich is part of "not able" (any excuse would not change the fact)
Yes, I indeed expect God to be a genie (or an all powerful being with no excuses), or else he's no different than a chance. a hope or a limited fallen being like the rest of us.
Did you just admit God is LESS THAN A GENIE?
funwjoshnjenn 2 years ago
No it means he's not trapped in a lamp giving away 3 wishes to whoever rubs him the right way.
emmthreejonny 2 years ago
The Christian god is all-knowing and all-powerful, he trumps a genie any day.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
I have seen Jennifer Love Hewitt. Therefore I know she is real. Show me God, please? A photograph, not a drawing.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
so you believe in things you can see,.. thats deep.
I mean, why didnt someone else ever make the argument that only things I see are real?? you'd have to be alive 6 or 7 years to put that kind of thing together...
but maybe you could start with Aristotelian logic and empiricism, contrast that to the rational approach mastered by Plato, and call me in ten years when your ready to have a discussion about Eusebius, Augustine, Kant, the reliability of memory and the Revelation of God.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Hahaha, you were the one who was comparing the existence of Jennifer Love Hewitt to the existence of God. If you want to have a deep discussion about the existence of God, I am all ears. You can mention all the philosophers and ideas you want, it doesn't change the fact that your arguments are weak and elementary at best. You made a simple argument that was somewhat lacking, I gave a simple response that was somewhat lacking, but that was enough to disprove your horrific analogy.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
Tell me about the revelation of god MrEpictetus, how did god reveal himself to you? Please, tell me, so I can tell you why you're mistaken. :)
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
I subscribe to Reformed theology, so its quite impossible for me to be wrong. Peter tells us that the word of the Prophets is more certain than His eyewitness account of the glory of Jesus Christ on the mount of Transfiguration.
The Self attestation of Jesus Christ is the answer to all debate.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
You make me laugh. What records do we have about Jesus' life and words? Don't say the Bible, because we all know the Bible is an unreliable source full of contradictions, moral atrocities, scientific impossibilities, and historical inaccuracies. Would you quote a history textbook that denied the holocaust ever happened? No, of course you wouldn't, so find me a reliable source that backs up your claims, not one that says pi = 3.00.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
Polycarps letters, Ambrose' letters,.. Eusebius, Jerome,Justyn Martyr, Josephus, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, of Alexandria, Origen, Livy, Augustine, Plutarch,..
Calvin, Newton, Paley, WF Albright, Wycliffe,Harvey, Rembrandt, Locke, Kant, Mendel, Luther,Owens, ..
Warfield, Kuyper, Barth, Vos, Montgomery, Bahnsen, McDowell, Livingston, FF Bruce, Hodge, CH Dodd, Bultmann...
There are no contradictions in the Bible, nothing in science is or can be contrary to The Bible.
Listen to the Doctor.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Part #1: Hahaha, still with the jokes. Are you a comedian? Those people did not each give an account of Jesus' life outside of the Bible. The only one that did was Josephus. I don't believe Locke and Rembrandt lived during Jesus' lifetime so unfortunately they aren't accounts of his life. There are many contradictions within the Bible, have you read it? What about the Bible saying pi = 3.00. God calling for genocides and infanticides? What about the Earth being 6,000 years old?
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
where does the Bible say pi=3?
and you think claiming the OT God is immoral is something new?
thats not a contradiction, thats a silly 21st century american hearing that the Hittites were destroyed and going " I have decided in my wisdom and jurisprudence that God was wrong to do that"
your day in the dock will come.
So you trust carbon dating or potassium oxide dating? Lyell and Huxley constructed a lie called uniformitarianism, and 3 generations of Americans have been raised on it.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
1 Kings 7:23 reads:
The sea was then cast; it was made with a circular rim, and measured ten
cubits across, five in height, and thirty in circumference.
The circumference of that circle would have to be 31.4 not 30.0 because the circumference of a circle is found by multiplying the diameter of that circle by pi. 10 x 3.14 = 31.4. Find me a circle that exists in reality with a diameter of 10 and a circumference of 30 and I will convert to Christianity instantly.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago 2
I would be starting in the NFL if it wasnt for that one practice back in high school I was late for, man it was that one practice that cost me my whole NFL career!!
thats what you sound like.
The NFL wants lazy bums like me who make excuses about as much as Christianity wants a lazy bum like you.
Morality, absolutes, prophecy, induction, memory, objectivity, metaphysics, all of human history and culture ...
yeah it was that one verse that kept you off the team,
you'd get cut.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
That's one verse, there are many more verses which contradict common knowledge. You sound like someone who is so unable to accept the truth and live by knowledge that you refuse to see reason. I didn't arbitrarily decide that it is wrong to kill babies, I'm sure you can agree that's not what Christ would have wanted us to do. Strange that's exactly the sort of things the supposed god he is the son of was causing in the old testament. Contradiction, anyone?
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
Part #2: Morality is not on your side. The god of the Bible is immoral by his own standards! "Thou shall not murder," meanwhile he's sending genocides in Joshua. Immoral and hypocritical. A loving God that condemns his own children to suffer eternally? Let me ask you, is there anything your children could ever do that would lead you to lock them in the basement and torture them for as long as possible? If they said they didn't love you, maybe? Because that's the way of the biblical god.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
none of Gods children will suffer eternally.
All of Gods enemies will suffer eternally.
God creating everyone doesnt mean their all His children, look at Genesis 6 or read Romans 8-13 or John 8:44 or Matt 7:21
or try Joel 3 where God pronounces judgement on egypt for violence against Judah, or the 13 times in Isaiah that God destroys the nations of His enemies. He also judges His people Israel for their wickedness and idolatry.
If my child misbehaves I will punish him bc I love him.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Part #3: Absolutes? Prophecy? Someone outside of the Bible which I've already proven is an unreliable source predicted Jesus? The Bible says that Jesus' second coming was supposed to have happened during the lifetime of his apostles. Too bad the Bible's wrong again. Who saw that coming? All of human history and culture is not on your side either... Last time I checked there have been countless religions in the past that have evaporated, and there are many other religions being practiced
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
why would you look outside of Gods word for prophecy? I would agree with you that there is no prophecy apart from the Inspired Scriptures. Jesus' 2nd coming has alot to do with the greek parousia, and there are schools that grew from your keen observation.
Preterism, historicism, and futurism loosely.
what happened to Jerusalem in 70 ad?
was that in the lifetime of the apostles?
religions are as numerous as opinions, but only one word of God.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Part # 4: right now. All of human history and culture is unfortunately not on your side. That one verse regarding pi is not what converted me from my former Christian ways, I didn't even know about that particular verse until after I became an atheist. The difference between you and me is that I have an open mind. I am mature, intelligent, and honest enough to accept that the Bible is an unreliable source therefore there is no proof of the Christian god's existence. You are in denial,
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
and unable to admit the fact that there is no way of knowing what will happen to you when you die, and you will never see your dead friends and family again. It's perfectly understandable. It's also pitiful and pathetic, but understandable nonetheless.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
your young, dont commit your mind to the hopeless and purposeless universe of the atheist.
there is a better way to live your life, but it wont be easy. you have to be well coached and mentally tough to play on the field. likewise, you must be well read to make consistent arguments.
check out Josh Mcdowell " Ready Defense" I read him when I was 16, and he gave me all the archaeological and religious facts I needed to always be right when I argue. I didnt read John Calvin til I was 25.
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
" dont commit your mind to the hopeless and purposeless universe of the atheist."
I am an atheist and I can confirm that this comment is rubbish. My life has purpose and I at no point feel hopeless.
I am also happier, healthier and an awful lot nicer than many many theists.
You young, you commit your mind to facts and evidence. Do not believe in things simply because you are told too. If you think that the world has a supernatural creator do not limit yourself to just Christianity!
JanJiska 2 years ago
your so decieved you have no idea of any truth,
truth is so evident and infront of you, and has been witnessed to you by all creation and by the written word of God.
k0be55 2 years ago
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UltimatePastorDave 7 months ago
@watermelonygoodness i've heard a lot of people that have hangups with Christianity, but never based on geometrical problems LOL, there's a first time for everything. anyway the short answer to your criticism is that back then, "a cubit" was not as precise as today's mathematical understandings, it was an approximation. period. you are the one making the mistake of applying post-industrial age standards to ANE craftsmanship.
UltimatePastorDave 7 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave How is it funny that the one problem (out of hundreds) I have brought to your attention is mathematical? Are you saying that we should hold god to a different standard wherein he is not expected to be able to do math? He doesn't understand numbers? Which are universal, not exclusive to humanity? I've never heard that before. The short answer to your criticism is that is doesn't matter what the unit is. It cannot be ten units in diameter and thirty units in circumference.
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness God is the one who has given you your faculties and the capacity to even do math. look at God's creation and you will see His perfections. i think you missed the point with regards to that particular construction project in the book of Kings, there is a difference between making an approximation and making a mistake. people round figures in math and in construction all the time - not because they're wrong, it's for the sake of simplicity when precision is not important.
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave I thought the Bible was the word of god. You're saying god makes mistakes, then. You're saying god messed up and forgot how to calculate the circumference of a circle.
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
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UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness there is a difference between an approximation and a mistake.
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave Oh, I get it. So god doesn't KNOW everything, he APPROXIMATES. And sometimes he's wrong. Gotcha.
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness God knows everything and He is never wrong. approximations are different from mistakes. for example, a genius can know the exact number and still approximate for the sake of simplicity when precision is not important. as is the case here - rounding off to make an ancient piece of furniture basically a certain round shape without using any of the modern tools we use today does not make it "wrong," it's just communicating to an ANE craftsman in ways that make sense to them.
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave So god deliberately dumbed down his commands so that they would be mathematically and physically impossible to follow.
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness it is not impossible mathematically to follow an approximation. but since you insist on being so precise, there are ways for this piece of furniture to be perfectly round by taking into account the width of the brim, as a former skeptic, I've found that there are answers to difficult passages in the scriptures, i encourage you to search them out, rather than use the difficulties as excuses to justify your rebellion against God
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave I'm not "rebelling" against god. If you were ever a skeptic, you would still be one. Being skeptical is a trait of personality, critical thinking isn't something you "used to do." Well. Maybe it is in your case, I don't know. I can assure you, this pi thing is not the reason I don't believe in god. It is merely one of many funny little flaws in the "infallible" word of god.
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness there's a difference between critical thinking and being committed to skepticism. you are not critically thinking or you would be open to a solution to the 1 Kgs 7 passage. you can't admit that you are rebelling against God b/c that would make you responsible, He created you but you want nothing to do with Him. your problem is not with the (so-called) flaws in the word of God which can be handled with critical thinking, your problem is your commitment to independence.
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave "there's a difference between critical thinking and being committed to skepticism. " Nope actually there isn't. It's sad that you don't understand the meaning of words, but maybe one day. "you are not critically thinking or you would be open to a solution to the 1 Kgs 7 passage. " I am open to a solution and I read the one you gave me. "you can't admit that you are rebelling against God b/c that would make you responsible," Wrong again. I won't admit it because then...
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness you are self-deceived. you have a commitment to skepticism about God's existence, but your greater problem is that you can't see that you have a commitment to skepticism about God's existence, and that is self-deception. you need your unbelief to be God's problem (he didn't prove himself to you well enough), so you're not guilty for not living for him as he commands you to. but your suppression of your knowledge of God is not a morally neutral act. you are guilty already.
UltimatePastorDave 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave and you are a judgemental prick, but hey, who didn't know that already? Since you speak for god, I guess that since all atheists are so guilty they should be pulled out into the streets and shot then? Or do you get a bitter pleasure in thinking of all of us that don't share your faith for one reason or another roasting in torment forever so you have no need? I guess so, mister know-it-all...
milkmankennedy 6 months ago
@UltimatePastorDave ...I would be lying. Isn't that a sin? Don't want to piss of the lord he might send another plague to kill all the children in my town!
watermelonygoodness 6 months ago
@watermelonygoodness Oops, what does verse 26 say? "A handbreadth thick." How thick is a handbreadth? 4 inches. The diameter relates to the outside of the object while the circumference relates to the inside. This is a simple observation that anyone with an intellect can ascertain. Such modern-day hubris. As if the artist making this object couldn't measure! Is that really the best you can do?
prayforfire 6 months ago 5
@prayforfire
JUDOOOOO CHOP!
MCulpa 1 month ago
@prayforfire No, actually. My comment from 2 years ago isn't the best I can do. But it's amazing how many replies I continue to get, two years later, from one stupid post.
watermelonygoodness 1 month ago
@watermelonygoodness Hey broham , things get lost in translation ALL the time in the english version of anything , even numbers... English is a Germanic language far from Hebrew and Greek which the Bibles was written in . Which sucks ... The numbers that the Bibles states for Apple Pie are correct but only in Hebrew . Go to abarim-publications dot calm and find it there . they have a laymans breakdown of the translation .
Natedoggnkt206 5 months ago
@watermelonygoodness You presume this object to be flat on a piece of paper like a circle. This is a 3D container with a rim. Its body has one diameter, and the rim another. It's not a contradiction. Think of a beaker with a rim. You can't use the diameter of the rim to calculate the circumference of the body. Rather, this is a clever way of defining the shape with two measurements of separate things, exactly what you'd expect of an inspired document.
thatotherchap 3 months ago
@thatotherchap "You presume this object to be flat on a piece of paper like a circle." No I don't. "Think of a beaker with a rim. You can't use the diameter of the rim to calculate the circumference of the body." Actually you can. You most certainly can.
watermelonygoodness 3 months ago
@watermelonygoodness That might be true IF the beaker was perfectly cylindrical where the rim has the same diameter as does the body, but most beakers have a rim that has a larger diameter than does the body. There are thus two different circles being referred to, and thus it is invalid to claim that this refers to the proportions of a single circle. See the image on creation[dot]com/does-the-bible-say-pi-equals-3 for more details.
thatotherchap 3 months ago
@watermelonygoodness
It's a rough estimate, and a decent enough one for a non-technical manual
Deal w/it
MCulpa 1 month ago
Part #2: How did Cain reproduce if he and his parents were the only humans in the world? Where did his nameless wife come from? Where are dinosaurs in the Bible? The Bible says the Earth is flat, that's a lie.
watermelonygoodness 2 years ago
morning:)
God curses the woman and says " From now on you will bear children in pain" meaning prior to that moment reproduction had been going on for some time. If you say that its incest in some way, this was before the law was given on Sinai, so there was no incest. The blood line was untainted. Dinosaurs are in the book of Job,
where does the Bible say the earth is flat?
The sun doesnt actually rise, yet every day weathermen tell us the exact minute the sun will RISE. a contradiction?
MrEpictetus 2 years ago
Praise God for Bahnsen's many works during his time on earth...
TheMasterElite 3 years ago
Bahnsen's knowledge of philosophy & the history of philosophy was encyclopedic, and his mind was razor-sharp.
fiercegallantry 3 years ago
idk how this is relevant but i've read da bible cover to cover and its a really good book, but thats all it is...a book, i mean i cant understand how n-e one can believe that actually ever happened
wiccanstar12420 3 years ago
Listen to the debates and maybe it will start to become a bit clearer.
a5dr3 3 years ago
He that doth not believe that there is a God, is more vile than a devil. To deny there is a God, is a sort of atheism that is not to be found in hell.
lukojason1973 3 years ago
God exists!!!
crazyovercartoons 3 years ago 2
Basicly he argueing against the "Open mind" method of approach. Even from evidence standpoint someone can refute it.
Your brain works roughly like a comuter. Certain Programs conflict with one another and cant always be put together. A computer with out programing (Open mind) will not even operate.
No matter what.. people have presuppositions. The world around would make no sense (including language) would make no sense with out presupposions.
MRKetter81 4 years ago
The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.
lukojason1973 3 years ago
Hey, that's Ray Comfort's line! Stealing is wrong, mmmmkay? :P
pioerghaozprhgorueir 3 years ago
Believe God - have faith NOT religion.
All religions contradict Gods biggest gift to mankind .. Free Will!
indexp999 4 years ago
I hate to quibble with someone who is at least a theist but free will? In what sense do you think we have free will?
streetapologist 4 years ago
WorshipVideo said... "Consider his argument and listen to the manner in which he demolishes the atheist's worldview."
pioerghaozprhgorueir responded... "This is a common misconception. Atheism is NOT a worldview. Atheism is the absence of a god-belief, that's all."
WorshipVideo didn't speak of atheism as a worldview, but rather "the atheist's worldview." Are you denying that atheists can have worldviews?
CRHE 4 years ago
Atheists do have world views. But that has nothing to do with atheism. Sigh.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
i dont blame god for not showing himself to me. how can i blame a god that doesnt exist? this man is speaking from a theist point of view and not from a scientific one. crazy.
holdontoyourwig 4 years ago
Bahnsen is the shiz.
jaminhubner 4 years ago
Greg Bahnsen will come to be seen as one of the most brilliant philosophers of our generation.
Consider his argument and listen to the manner in which he demolishes the atheist's worldview.
WorshipVideo 4 years ago
"Consider his argument and listen to the manner in which he demolishes the atheist's worldview."
This is a common misconception. Atheism is NOT a worldview. Atheism is the absence of a god-belief, that's all.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Bahnsen responds to that in both the debates on this page
a5dr3 4 years ago
@a5dr3 re: "Bahnsen responds to that in both the debates on this page"
Does he respond to 2+2=4 too? pioer's statement stands on its own, and is axiomatic. There is no relevant response to it. Atheist generally do not have common world views at all; just one philosophical characteristic (lacking belief in (any) god).
websnarf 4 years ago
Rubbish. Atheism make a claim. That claim is that God isn't. A claim like this is NOT neutral. If u make the claim, YOU bear the burden of proof. So, where is your proof???
robocopnz 4 years ago
"Rubbish. Atheism make a claim. That claim is that God isn't."
Nope. Read again: atheism is the absence of a god-belief. It's the DISCARDING of a claim. You hear a claim, you don't accept it, you move on. People do this all the time. By your reason, you should justify yourself to that slick car salesman why you DON'T buy that car, and if you don't, you must buy the car. Sorry, it doesn't work that way: YOU make the claim, YOU back it up.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
So atheism makes no claims at all about God? Well, fair enough if you are talking about weak atheism. But in that case, try agnosticism :-)
robocopnz 4 years ago
"So atheism makes no claims at all about God? Well, fair enough if you are talking about weak atheism."
Well, we WERE talking about atheism, right? So, what's the problem?
Also: care to back up your claim?
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Sorry, which claim? Since you are really an agnostic (since u claim to have no God belief), then why r u on here making any comments about anything relating to God? Or are u just asking questions since u have no God belief from which to make any statements?
robocopnz 4 years ago
"Sorry, which claim?"
Oops, sorry, I took it you claimed God exists. My bad.
"...then why r u on here making any comments about anything relating to God?"
Why shouldn't I? Don't I have the right to do so?
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
@robocopnz: Atheism and agnosticism are not disjoint philosophies. Weak atheism and agnostic atheism are essentially the same thing, and represent the majority of atheists.
websnarf 4 years ago
Yes...Which makes it a worldview :) Think about it...
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
And theism is a worldview right, so athiesm is a non-world view, which isn't the 'view' that something is a 'non-worldview' make that a worldview ?
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
"And theism is a worldview right..."
Wrong. Theism is simply 'the belief in (a) god(s)'. Theism in itself is not a worldview. Theistic worldviews can be christian, muslim, jewish, mormon, or any other of the theistic worldviews. Just like atheism in itself is not a worldview, but atheists can be objectivists, humanists, buddhists, raelians or even LaVeyan satanists.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Ok, lets define things. A worldview is: 1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. 2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
I can clearly see that theism is a worldview, and atheism as well. thoughts?
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
"I can clearly see that theism is a worldview, and atheism as well. thoughts?"
So all theists, be it Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc... have the same worldview?
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Your missing the distinction =)
All a 'worldview' is, is your belief about reality. As an Athiest, you believe there is no God, and as a Christian I believe there is a God. Those are two different views of reality, making both worldviews.
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
Atheism is not a belief. I don't have to DISBELIEVE in unicorns. There is no evidence for them, so there is no belief.
Atheists view "reality" in different ways. An atheist's worldview has nothing to do with atheism.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
But a Muslim on the other hand believes just as the Christian does that there is a God, but what God do each of them believe in? I can tell you they don't believe in the same God. So then they have two different beliefs about reality, two different worldviews.
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
"I can tell you they don't believe in the same God. So then they have two different beliefs about reality, two different worldviews."
So you actually agree with what I said earlier: theism is not a worldview, Christianity and Islam are worldviews. That's the distinction. Same with atheism: atheism is not a worldview, but objectivism and humanism are.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
I respectfully disagree with you both (at least how you're wording things). I don't think that it makes sense to speak of atheism, Christianity, and/or Islam (or what have you) as worldviews. But it does make sense to speak of an atheistic worldview, or a Christian worldview, etc. See the distinction?
CRHE 4 years ago
Well, thats a distinction without a difference.
To say that Atheism and an atheistic worldview are two different things, is wrong. The reason we have two different forms of the word is that we can use them in two different kinds of sentences..For example: 1. Atheism is a worldview
or
2. The Atheistic worldview.
Your still saying the same thing either way.
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
Atheism doesn't cause people to view the world in any particular way. There is no doctrine, dogma, holy books or authorities in atheism to influence us.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
Epistemology is the theory of knowledge, all world views have a unique epistemology i.e. a theory of how we come to know anything whatever.
A metaphysic is defined as a theory of reality and one expounds that metaphysic through an epistemology, there is no other rational basis for doing so.
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
Atheism expounds a view of reality and thus with all other world views expounds this reality as they see it with a particular view to knowledge i.e Epistemology.
With all due respect, you don't seem to have an adequate understanding of the basic philosophical terms that are being used here. These terms are not mine but the terms all philosophers have used down through the history of western philosophy.
G0dsGirl 4 years ago
You're toying with semantics. You claim that atheism espouses a certain set of beliefs, which is not true. Atheists can and do disagree with one another on almost everything. That ONLY thing we have in common is non-belief in a god. We even disagree as to WHY we have no belief.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
I didn't go back to where this exchange began but I don't find your comment about atheists disagreeing on everything genuine. Perhaps in theory they should, but I can't think of any that I've spoken to in years that aren't ultimately empiricists that blather on naively about science. In my experience I've heard, almost without exception, the same epistemologically unaware positivism by way of bad Dawkins arguments over and over again.
a5dr3 4 years ago
Lol, I love Dawkins and your comment about him shows that you don't understand his arguments.
What is naive about science? You lead me to believe that you don't understand basic science.
Some atheists don't agree with everything Dawkins says. Most I've spoken to respect him as a scientist, but they may not agree with the manner in which he represents atheism.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
No kidding, you love Dawkins? -There is no such entity science. There is however, the scientific method, which is utterly incoherent without relying on Christian presuppositions. Read Feyerabend and Hume. (You might also want to consider asking questions instead of debating.)
a5dr3 4 years ago
Your claim that science relies on your crackpot religion is just stupid. That is the most absurd statement I've heard in a long time. You obviously don't understand the scientific method.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
Awesome dude. You probably know a lot of stuff I dont -Please then justify induction, the reliability of the senses, universal laws of logic, unchanging laws of nature contrasted with your ability to exercise free agency to assess truth claims, all necessary activities for "science" -By the way, what epistemological perspective r u relying on when you challenge the Christian worldview?
a5dr3 4 years ago
Anyone can throw around big words they don't understand.
Do you have evidence for your sky nanny or not?
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
Awesome dude. You probably know a lot of stuff I dont -Please then justify induction, the reliability of the senses, universal laws of logic, unchanging laws of nature contrasted with your ability to exercise free agency to assess truth claims, all necessary activities for "science" -By the way, what epistemological perspective r u relying on when you challenge the Christian worldview?
a5dr3 4 years ago
Of course you have no evidence. That is why religion is based on FAITH, not reason.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
yawn... Evidence is determined by your pressupositions, or is that word too big for you? Why don't you listen to the Bahnsen Stein debate. He covers why only a novice would demand evidence in a worldview debate. In his opening statement he calls it the crackers in the pantry fallacy. Sorry,u don't know enough for me to debate you and I don't have time to teach u basic philosophy.
a5dr3 4 years ago
Ha ha, you're not likely to be anyone's teacher.
Why don't YOU defend your claims, instead of referring me to someone else.
Jeremyguru 4 years ago
"Sorry,u don't know enough for me to debate you and I don't have time to teach u basic philosophy."
Hate to bring it to you, a5dr3, but one really does not need much knowledge of philosopy to see the faulty nature of the TAG. NO PREMISE whatsoever is backed up, so no one can be expected to give credence where no credence is due.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Pioer-
Our premises rest on our presuppositions. TAG is logically defensible because it provides rational justification for inductive inference.
Merriam-Websters offers a layman's definition of presupposition which it defines as an antecedent in logic. You have basically said nothing above other than pointing out that our arguments rest on our presuppostions. We readily admit this but what you have failed to acknowledge is that your arguments rest on your presuppositions.
streetapologist 4 years ago
**and**
All that we are asking is whether your worldview (as a generic for *any* or *all* atheistic worldviews) can account [i.e. provide rational justification] for universal invariant abstract entities like the laws of logic. If not then your worldview *reduces to absurdity* because it is incoherent.
streetapologist 4 years ago
"TAG is logically defensible because it provides rational justification for inductive inference."
No it is not because it commits the fallacy of the Stolen Argument.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
"We readily admit this but what you have failed to acknowledge is that your arguments rest on your presuppositions."
Then point out to me WHICH of my arguments rest on presuppositions.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
All arguments rest on presuppostions. Make an argument, and then I will gladly help you see your own presuppositions.
streetapologist 4 years ago
"Make an argument, and then I will gladly help you see your own presuppositions."
So you say that my arguments rest on presuppositions before I even have made an argument. How can you know this? How do you know by which worldview or philosophy I live?
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Of course your arguments rest on presuppositions. The admission that you live according to some *philosophy of life* or *worldview* is an admission that you have at least some basic assumptions.
streetapologist 4 years ago
"The admission that you live according to some *philosophy of life* or *worldview* is an admission that you have at least some basic assumptions."
I'm sorry but you cannot speak for me. Maybe YOUR worldview is based on 'assumptions' or 'guesses' or 'hopes'. Mine isn't.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Demonstrate it then. If I might hazard a guess I'd guess it will start out like this: I trust what I can observe......but please provide the *ground* for your worldview.
streetapologist 4 years ago
"....but please provide the *ground* for your worldview."
Simple: existence exists, and holds primacy over consciousness.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago
Could you kindly proffer a definition of "existence'?
streetapologist 4 years ago
"Could you kindly proffer a definition of "existence'?"
Existence is a basic, irreducible axiom. A primary so to say.
pioerghaozprhgorueir 4 years ago