Is this an effective attack on moderate religion?

[stoodOnAnArk]

They need their little red books because they have not the true connection with God. Did not God give man free thought, is it God killing people, or people (Authors) implicating the perfect being in their own imaginations.

Can a perfect being kill his own creations, make Commandments, and not stand by them?

dunno my God might be a different one to their fake one.

HallEluYah.

[DandAinTac]

Yes, it is convincing. I believe that the only thing that has moderated religion in the west was the enlightenment and the spread of democracy, and the effective secularization of government. All we have to do is take a look at things before those events. The widespread application of secular education, the separation of church and state, the rise of the science, these things moderated religion. Religion did not moderate itself.

[oldguyfromcalifornia]

Sam Harris doesn't go far enough if you ask me. The pope protects child molesters. The Mormons believe in magic underwear and only caved in on allowing blacks into the fold in very recent years. Oh..then there's the crusades, witch burning etc etc etc. Atheists down want you to leave us behind. We want you to leave us alone.

[TheNorthernExodus]

In answer to the title of the vid, no this is not a good attack.

Any theologian on a word by word basis can destroy Sam's comments here as easy as an average evolutionary scientist can destroy the theories of Kent Hovind.

As far as the Bible is concerned Sam seems to have as little an understanding of it as Kent has of the theory of evolution is all I am saying.I can break it down point by point myself and I am thick, if I ever get my vindictive webcam working again I will do a responce.

[itry2brational]

"What were nazis shouting as they gassed disabled people?"

Heil Hitler?

"What was Stalin praising as he slaughtered nuns and priests and leveled churches?"

Himself?

As far as Pol Pot goes, no idea, but he wasn't screaming praise no god. Likely it was something similar to Stalin. What's you're point?

[atheist4ever2]

Nuns and Priests? Russian Orthodox is not considered Catholic.

[Heathenfidel]

Sam Harris kicks ass.

[skearny1]

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Child abuse of the more intimate persuasion that is commonplace in religion most easily provokes our revulsion, but raising kids from birth to believe religious tripe is, I argue, far more contemptful.

[deeliciousplum]

I know that being reactive does not make a person any more knowledgeable, but both the pedophile and the person who has mistakenly misinterpreted the so-called divine source for morality can be dangerous to a child. That I am of the thought that there is no greater than or lesser than value one can place upon a person who is harming. They are both to be dealt with in such a way as to keep others safe from their physical, mental and spiritual harms. However this may be accomplished.

[biggregg5]

yes.  unless one buys in to giving relgion a free pass for spouting idiocy yet demanding respect for it.

[VeggieTrunks]

It is idiot. Loving your neighbor like yourself, men being created equal, honoring your mother and father, taking care of your body---what a load of garbage!

I say we clone Stalin, Pot, and Hitler and get this thing started!

[biggregg5]

Loving thy neighbor like yourself-can you say bigotry, sexism, murder, crusades, inquisition.

men being created equal- see above

honoring thy mother and father- one of the few good commandments. I think us secularist can figure that one out though.

taking care of your body?

Oh, yeah, if you lack belief in something bacause there is no evidence it exists i am sure that leads directly to being a mass murderer. I guess since I don't think Elvis is still alive, I am ready to kill.

[danielnz1]

Most people in more and more freely informed secular developed nations are becoming 1st skeptics, in their core values and ideas. They may still exercise some moderate faith, but with most of these individuals it's a part of culture or to socialize with others. Skeptical secularism, is the modern trend that's now here to stay. Moderate people of faiths, like a lot of Sikhs, Post modernists, Re-constructionist Judaisms, Zen Buddhist, Bahia's, Christian Scientists and Deist etc,

[danielnz1]

usually fit well (with humanist values) in these ever-increasing secular progressive open -minded societies. And there's no better positive viable Human alternative at-all.

[HashyBee]

Excellent video. Faved&5*

Nice one.

[daleshankins]

I admire Sam but this is not his best. People always have and will pick and chose from their holy texts. Texts are very easy to dismantle logically. Behavioral change cannot be brought about so simply. Basic psychological, psychiatric teaches that fear, hatred and contempt generate more of the same. A wise professor of mine once put it this way..."the amount of heat generated in a discussion is inversely proportional to the amount of light shed on the subject". Sam sheds very little light here.

[OccamKant]

Actually, in times past, people did NOT pick and choose. Just look at the dark ages. The inquisition. The crusades.

That's all pretty literally lifted from the bible. What did they pick and choose?

Christians didn't start to pick and choose until after the enlightenment.

[daleshankins]

Please see Professor Bart D. Ehrman's work on the criticism of the biblical texts - especially, "Misquoting Jesus." The Bible is almost entirely a case of people "picking and choosing" what they will include in their "holy" book. One of the first major sessions of picking and choosing began at Nicaea in 325 B.C. several centuries before the enlightenment. But I take your point...Christians, and other religions, typically wait until scientific fact forces them to change their views. Peace

[Hooya2]

"People always have and will pick and chose from their holy texts."

Bullshit. People only pick and choose when they feel that peer pressure is forcing them to, and even then they won't do it if some people support them, even if they're the minority.

See the Westboro Baptist Church for a perfect example.

[daleshankins]

I agree that the Westboro Baptist Church is frightening. Thankfully not everyone goes there.

[Hottides]

All Christianity's frightening.

[daleshankins]

I fear anyone willing to use hatred, anger, intimidation, etc. in order to try and impose their views on others.

[Hottides]

The very quintessence of religious methodology.

[daleshankins]

Unfortunately fear, hatred, ridicule and intimidation are often to promote non religious ideas as well. Patriotism - my country, love it or leave it. Racism - you are genetically inferior that is why you are poor. I could go on but you get the picture. Perhaps fear and hatred are the real challenges and our focus should be on them as much as anything.

[TexanProgressive]

There is also reason to be afraid of the beliefs themselves which lead you to engage in this sort of behavior. As Steven Weinberg says, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but to get good people to do bad things, that takes religion"

[daleshankins]

Actually I think politics and racism also will do in a pinch...as the source for convincing good people it is a good idea to do bad things. :-)

[itry2brational]

"Perhaps fear and hatred are the real challenges"

And religion breeds both.

What do you think the hijackers on the planes were screaming seconds before the planes hit? 'God is great' or "Allahu Akbar". I challenge you to find a suicide bomber, before the fact, that will say that the reason they are going to martyr themselves is NOT related to their religious beliefs but rather politics and racism.

[daleshankins]

I agree that religion tends to breed hatred and intolerance. I also see ample evidence that "patriotism", "egotism", "racism", etc. are equally useful tools for generating anger and violence.

[itry2brational]

Unfortunately, religion is followed by BILLIONS. I literally divides the worlds populations.

[daleshankins]

Again. I am in total agreement that billions of religious faithful fight among each other. I find people's clinging to fanatical nationalistic views equally discouraging.

[VeggieTrunks]

And what was Pol Pot screaming as he took out a quarter of Cambodia? What was Stalin praising as he slaughtered nuns and priests and levelled churches? What were nazis shouting as they gassed disabled people?

FAIL

[TithonusSyndrome]

"Slaughtered nuns and leveled churches?" LOL! Are we talking about the same Stalin? The one who, in 1944, issued statements to the NKVD telling them to let the Church do whatever the hell it wanted to, and received the highest burial honors from the Church on his death with Patriarch Alexiy presiding over the ceremony and calling him the best friend they ever had, despite the fact that anti-Stalin sentiment was prevalent in the Kremlin almost immediately after his death?

[themadhair]

I use a similar argument to this one IRL. Because the holy texts do not explicitly state that the barbarisms are wrong, and in some cases would appear to condone it, the moderate has to explain why they do not act on such barbarisms. I opine that the moderate is acting under their own moral compass that was not derived from the text. If this compass is doing a better job that the text then....surely something is wrong with the text?

[Inqoinf]

There are things I'd touch up a little bit but, YES, I think he did a pretty good job. He was talking to an already convinced audience who he probably assumed knew the main arguments against Christianity. The speech needed to be interesting and it was. If he was speaking to a noticeably mixed audience, then yes, he would need a better argument.

[mironowak]

A total detachment of religions from 21 century reality coupled with a pathetic bickering between/within religions will bring their ultimate demise. While the religious waste their time arguing whose "god" is right let us enjoy our lives.

But guided by human empathy we must always remember about people who are oppressed or in need. We need one another.

Empty, delusional prayers can never replace a real humanitarian help in the name of social solidarity and universal values.

[freedom0f5peech]

I thought he did a great job!

[truvelocity]

The psychology of compartmentalizing beliefs is something people do in order to submit to the innevitable relinquishing of power, when there is a new empire being born.

Change is essential to growth. Eventually, religion will become obsolete and reason will become the advanced state of civilization. That is, if we don't destroy ourselves before we evolve that far.

If we do evolve that far, then future generations don't have to get the fact that people wrote rules, not an entity.

[Hercules2345]

There is no democracy nor moderation in any of the Abrahamic faiths.

"Nowhere in Scripture will you find an acknowledgment that each individual has an "inalienable right" to be treated with fairness and respect, or that "We, the People" are capable of governing ourselves. There is no democracy in the "word of God." In the bible, humans are "worms" and "sinners" deserving damnation, "slaves" who should humbly submit to all kings, heavenly and earthly."

ffrf. org/about/ bybarker/goodness .php

[Gringoman911]

Part of why the western roman empire collapsed, Was that most of the soldiers were pagan federates and when growing strife occurred between the pagans and christians it lead to civil war and violence in the streets, Then the barbarians swarmed in sensing weakness. St.Augustine wrote the first basis for what became the "just war theory" and now pacifism was no longer encouraged nor was tolerance of differing faiths and theologies.

[MessagesToYourMind]

Oh im reading that book atm, about half way through. Its quite good.

[InReasonWeTrust]

No, I don't think he makes the case in this clip. I'm no fan of liberal or moderate religion, however one might define them, and because Sam doesn't, there is no clear case to be made. Individuals in a religious society, and even of a single church, fall along a conservative-liberal curve, but is that reason for discounting moderation per se? The problem is their tolerance of silly and dangerous conservative views, not their religious views in their own right.

[InReasonWeTrust]

The better argument against Bible or Koran-based religion is that it inevitably breeds this distribution of thought; it may only be possible to lose the wacktards of society by losing faith entirely.

[mungbeanman]

Fundamentalism wouldn't exist without the power base of moderatism. Moderatists can condemn fundamentalists all they want but it is their fault they exist in the first place. Without the moderatist foundation fundamentalists would just be a minority sipping their Kool-aid (or whatever it is) into oblivion.

[kurtilein3]

well, maybe the argument is about moderates, but not directed towards moderates.

the point is: as long as moderates still claim to believe in the bible, and still claim that the bible is a good book, then this is a problem because they themselves might start believing more of that book, or they might promote the book to people or to their own children without telling them which parts need to be ignored. they cherrypick the bible, and thats good, but they promote the bible as a whole.

[drsuessre14]

Because I don't know the issue Harris is responding to, it's hard to answer the question. So, I'll answer, "Has Harris made the case that *Christian people* are irrational in their moderate position?" Jesus teaches and acts out a non-violent philosophy; Paul tells us that we should love our enemies, and, until the time of Constantine, Christians never felt the need to act violently. OT accounts should be delt with indivdually; Jesus' wrath is divine, and not what he excepts of his disciples.

[MonkeyFinger23]

"...until the time of Constantine, Christians never felt the need to act violently."

This is incorrect. Look up the Arian controversy. Violent conflicts were common place in the early days of the christian church between competing ideas of who or what Jesus was.

[drsuessre14]

Thanks for this correction, MonkeyFinger23! I have giving into something that I usually fight against, namely, the citing of Christian practice in history as a definitive way of establishing norms for how Christian ought to act. This is a wrong way of looking at the issue - whether or not Christians are violent or pacifist, the question must be, what does the NT affirm.

[Gringoman911]

The reason Christianity abandoned "Pacificism" is because its not practical or logical, The quakers couldn't run a society since they needed non quakers for protection as every sicko singled them out as easy prey to rob and rape.

[EvoBiologist]

Harris is right about one thing. The Bible teaches that nothing is worse than not believing in God. If our laws were really based on the Bible, as many claim, then Atheism would warrant the death penalty.

[SirFiNiX]

Uh, well, I wouldn't go and argue against moderate religion myself.

[CapnOrdinary]

Why the hell not? Moderate religion forms the power base for the nutters. Without moderate religion, there could be no fundamentalists.

Moderates enable fundamentalism, moderates have no working argument against fundamentalism, moderates haven't a leg to stand on, theologically OR rationally. In a sense, the wishy-washy moderates are WORSE than the fundies, because the moderates try to make it seem like it's okay to base one's world view on invisible friends. Sorry, it just isn't!

[daleshankins]

Hatred is irrational regardless of one's beliefs. Anyone who shouts and screams to get his way is mentally ill...at least in my opinion. Peace.