@281Lee i guys where you live they've never heard of remote controlled cameras?
I mean these arent a couple hicks doing reviews in their backyards with a flip video camera, its pretty obvious they have a little money behind their production
I thought ss196 was discontinued. Isn't there a 28 grain ss195lf and a 40 grain ss197sr(for the FN ps90). But,thanks for the info on body armour; thats really all I wanted to know. Have you ever used the PS90 or P90? If so what did you think of it.
Exactly what kind of gun laws are there in Turkey. I know that there are quite a few gun makers there: Sarsilmaz, Yavuz, Trabzon, and Akdal(I'm sure there are more). Anyways, it would be nice to know how they do things over there.
i would carry the five seven during winter - when people wear heavy jackets/many layers of cloth, the five seven will penetrate. i carry fnp45 summer time.
We got lucky. We live in TX, bought one slightly used for $500. Seller also threw in 1000 rounds. Only thing is we had to pay a little extra to have it shipped to a dealer. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this weapon! In fact, it's going to be my concealed carry pistol. Hubby loves it, too!
As devils advocate, I wouldn't be using an FNP-90 either. Just like the world's elite counter terrorism units, I'd go with the best SMG ever made, the Heckler & Koch MP5.
So what if it can pierce kevlar? That's an overrated trait. Certain +P+ steel core Full Metal Jacket 9mm ammo will penetrate kevlar too. Doesn't mean either is a viable choice for self-defense.
You don't need to penetrate an assailant's body armor to incapacitate them. A double-tap from a 9mm to the center mass, body armor or not, will stop a man virtually every time. Its like getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer.
A small caliber like that of the FN is not a reliable man stopper.
I don't think that the police officers involved in the North Hollywood shootout in 1997 would agree with your analogy of 9mm bullets being " Sledgehammers", considering that Phillips and Matasareanu combined were hit more than thirty times by 9mm ammunition, as well as .223 caliber rounds, and still managed to fire approximately 1,300 rounds to injure seventeen people.
Yes because of its design and the good ammunitions (SS109: pierce 3 bulletproof jackets, tumbles and spins when hitting soft human tissue, doing immediate deadly damages. Don't believe me, try it with SS109 ammo's.) Been a bodyguard for more than 25 years, I've tried a lot of handgun, but it's my favourite, you can't imagine how accurate and how deadly it is. Another advantage is its weight and its magazine capacity (20 rounds + 1 in the chamber)
It's called budget. Law enforcement agencies do not have infinite sources of cash. If they did, perhaps they would all be driving Ferraris. Besides, police officers don't dictate world standards by any means aside from their own line of work. Neither are they the only ones who use firearms.
FN isn't claiming the 5.7 as " The Best that will ever be", the pistol was designed as a companion to the P90. What's " Ideal" is relative to individuals and situations.
According to the manufacturer's website, the MSRP for a stock SIG SAUER P226 is $975. Five Sevens' normally go for at least $1,000 or more. Comparisons with more prolific models are uneven comparisons considering that there isn't a wide variety of Five Sevens available. We're comparing apples and oranges here.
The availability of ammunition that the Five Seven uses is also an issue.
The Five Seven is not a " SIG-Killer". It's a different animal intended for a different purpose.
French GIGN uses it, Belgian DSU also, many countries bought P-90's, but the list is kinda secret. Try one with the SS190 ammo, and not with SS195 or SS196Cheers
You educate yourself. A 5.56 fired from a carbine such as the AR-15 has more velocity than the FN round, yet ARs are in the hands of many law enforcement agencies.
Verbal Warning -> non-lethal force -> deadly force.
Whenever the police shoot, they shoot to kill, so it really does not matter what type of firearm they're holding, deadly force is the highest level of force they use.
Plus you're being evasive hear. If collateral damage was something LEOs feared, they wouldn't be carrying AR-15s in their patrol cars.
Admit it, the FN's 5.7 isn't as effective or reliable as pistol cartridges (9mm .40S&W .45ACP)
actually not quite true, police units ussualy shoot to knock you out, if i recall correctly, they are trained to fire rounds into non lethal areas of your body, in different locations each time so you feel the hits and go down and possible get knocked out, instead of firing directly onto vital organs multiple times to ensure death
Spoken like someone who has no clue as to what he's talking about.
"they are trained to fire rounds into non lethal areas of your body"
Where did you get that from? Hollywood? Lol.
LEOs are trained to shoot at the center-mass. They will never target a non-lethal area of your body. The only time it's lawful to shoot somebody, it is because they fear their lives are in imminent danger, therefore they shoot to kill the suspect.
i dont think LEOs are standard day to day cops are they? what i've said is true atleast here in Canada. they will only shoot to kill if the person in question is armed with a gun or anything more. as far as proper procedures that's how its supposed to go. what they actually end up doing in a split second decision is hardly fair observation. i've had conversations about such topics with actual policemen.
btw bit backwards dont you think? since when did hollywood cops not shoot to kill?
also center mass doesn't necessarily mean lethal. it's just a general area across your body which will have the most stopping power when you're hit (which does not necessarily mean dead)
blah sry, i got my acronyms mixed up, LEO is regular cop lol. but anyhow that depends on where you're from, and which type of law enforcement officer, for example SWAT = shoot to kill, regular cop on patrol, probably not.
wow. shut up please. Center mass on a human contains the most vital organs. those are the ones needed to keep you alive. if a cop has to fire his weapon he is going to kill you. they are not trained to shoot any where other than a chest shot. If you try to aim and shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the knee you will die. thats all their is to it. You will be in a bloody pool on the ground because you will miss. always aim for the largest part of a human target. always.
i specificaly refer to the area of which i live, from the information i've gathered, in my area, they are trained to fire across the chest, such as in the shoulder. (this of course does not apply to suspects armed with a firearm) this is for say low risk targets such as a man with a big ass machete or something that they cannot approach safely.
I have never heard of a LEO that was trained to shoot a suspect to incapacitate them only. I have only ever heard that you shoot center mass until they stop acting aggresively towards you or anyone else. Thats common sense. if they are trying to kill you, you should kill them first. or at least give them enough lead poisoning to stop them in their tracks. I cant imagine why a cop would shoot to wound their target. There is too much that could go wrong.
like i said, for people who would unlikely be able do further harm if such courtesy is given. such as man with big dangerous knife, which he wont have the energy to swing after he's been shot in the shoulder, NOT the guy with a gun who can still pull the trigger with minimal effort
and of course said swinging of knife would be ineffective if he's on the ground, whereas man with gun can still kill you if he was down on the ground unable to move 100 meters away. read between the lines, it's a situational thing
you are missing the whole idea of what I said bringerofd. NO ONE WILL SHOOT FOR THE ARM OR ANYTHING NON-VITAL. Did that clarify it? they dont train to do that. nobody does. its stupid to even attempt it. the only place that shit works is in the movies. If you are put in a situation where you have to draw a weapon on a human target, the last thing you do is try to slow them down with winging shots. All your shots should be center mass only. Thats standard protocol for all LEOs in the US.
shoulder vs arm, 2 very different things nailing the guy in the upper left or right chest area will take the guy down fast with less risk of killing, it's just as large a target to hit...lol in my area they dont like to kill you with guns, they tazer you to death.
Actually, if multiple weapons systems are available such systems are classed into force levels. So, again I say that no L.E.A. in the world carries a high velocity weapon as their primary. In fact, in the law enforcement community the .357 sig is often frowned upon for this very reason.
They're not classed into "force levels" wtf? By the way, what are you talking about when you say "their primary"? Are you referring to their sidearm? Just because they always have their pistol on them, doesn't make it their primary weapon, or weapon of choice. The only reason they use handguns more frequently is because it would obviously be impractical for them to walk around with an M4 slung over their shoulder.
However, when it comes to agencies that issue rifles to their officers....
....like the CHP, you'll notice that if given the opportunity, the officers will grab their AR-15 from the cruiser before confronting someone that could potentially be armed. Like during felony vehicle stops, they'll come out with rifles in hand. Or before serving high-risk search warrants. The only time they'll rely in their sidearm is if they don't have access to anything else.
About the .357SIG, I can name two LEAs off the top of my head that use that cartridge. The FAMs and Secret Service.
You must simply enjoy arguing. In your own words you describe L.E. as eager to seize the opportunity to brandish an assault rifle while simultaneously acknowledging that only increased threat levels warrant such actions.
You're obviously contorting what I said. I didn't say they were eager to brandish assault weapons, I said that if they have access to them, they well equip themselves with them, rather then simply rely on their sidearm.
You're trying to argue that different guns are classified into different "force levels" and that's BS. Deadly force is the highest level period. Whether they're shooting with a pistol or a rifle is irrelevant, because shooting someone with a gun is THE last resort.
....like the CHP, you'll notice that if given the opportunity, the officers will grab their AR-15 from the cruiser before confronting someone that could potentially be armed.
Does that statement not confirm my argument that a high velocity round such as the 5.56 is reserved for increased threat levels. I'm done arguing a mute point with you. There is a huge gap in the ballistic coefficient of a handgun round and that of a rifle round(Which the 5.7 is). If you actually know any L.E. or military ask their opinion on the matter and learn all the facts before formulating your own.
I believe that you are the one that enjoys arguing. The other guy here is correct. Officers cant carry an AR-15 around on their back all day. thats why the have sidearms to begin with. so they can carry something smaller and easier to move around with. And there is no such thing as a "Threat Level." turn off your tv. this shit aint a game. There is no procedure for when to use what gun. you use what you have. And the 357 Sig is one of the most widely used rounds in LE right now.
Did you read the entire debate. Or did you simple read a piece and decide to begin spewing your ignorance. I am a veteran and have forgotten more technical and tactical information than you will ever obtain. I am certain of this. Choose your words more carefully and you may find that people are willing converse with you and you may even gain an insight that you clearly lack. To start, learn about ballistic coefficients. Please do not message me again unless you are willing to educate yourself.
If you wish to continue correspondence, first discover and then tell me what type of ammunition is used in an A.R. carried by any U.S. L.E.O. And then please analyze this and try to understand why.
and just for your information 1stillbreathing yes I read the entire debate. you are both acting like 12 year olds. I was replying to the other guy but I noticed that some of your facts were not facts at all. the .357 Sig has more kinetic energy upon impact because of higher velocity and increased expansion over your typical pistol rounds. Those qualities make it ideal for police use. The ammo in an AR-15 used by police depends on the area and dept. but it should be 5.56 frangible ammo.
Frangible ammo. Because of the rounds low B.C. Further more, the .357sig is frowned upon for this very reason. Such a round is deigned for penetration, not stopping power, and commonly used by security details (secret service or federal air marshals), who are more likely to encounter a combatant in body armor. While it is used by some L.E.O.'s you would be hard pressed to find a department that endorses it, or any round with a low B.C. Collateral damage is always a concern and often paramount.
Thus stands my original point, that the 5.7mm is not widely accepted in the law enforcement community because of its potential for collateral damage. Perhaps if there were a frangible round available it would receive more attention, however that would lessen it's capabilities for penetration and put it more on par with some of the rounds currently in use. even frangibles from a 5.56 will not penetrate class 3 armor, but are relied upon for increased range and accuracy over a sidearm.
Almost every department in the state of NC is going to the .357 Sig in the Winchester Ranger SXT. its designed to expand rapidly and stop inside a human target to cause massive damage. I also know of several other state polices that are currently using this round to great effect. I personally have yet to get a .357 Sig but am in the market for one. BTW most hollow point defensive ammo is designed to stop inside a human target giving it greater damage potential.
I will agree to disagree. My point in this debate was to explain why L.E. will not adopt the 5.7. I have been led off on to many tangents since then, and am getting bored repeating myself. If you have an interest in weapons feel free to check out some of my vids. And the sxt was not designed by winchester, it is a copy of another projectile. My intent is not to offend, but to educate. I entered this debate to advocate the 5.7mm. Which I own and love in the role I have designated it for.
the 5.7 is not a very good round for LEOs to use because its so small and will shoot through almost everything. I agree there. The Ranger SXT used to be called the Black Talon, also made by winchester. Its the same round just not black anymore. I will agree to say that the bringerofd guy is a fuckin idiot though. he seems to have watched way too many movies and never shot a pistol before.
the police didnt have access to assault rifles whent the shootout was going on otherwise the 5.56 round would have pierced the armor. and the normal 5.56 FMJ round has more armor piercing capability that the special armor piercing 5.7 FN round
Not initially, but some of the officers eventually went to a local gun shop and borrowed .223 caliber rifles, not sure if they were m16s or not. About the same time the first SWAT unit arrived with m16s, and they were used to bring the second shooter down.
Nice weapon to fire and carry, cost over 1200 USD with tax, ammo easy to find expensive. even civilian rounds penetrate in gell but do tumble. 20 rounds within 3"to4" at 25 meters slow fire, double tap same, short sight radius but points very natural. Mags cost 50 to 60 USD extra if you find. bulk ammo available in Shotgun News good reloadable with work. Damaged cases. dents and throw 12'. Goal is two with conceal shoulder and 6 mags total. 2 in weapon and two spares each.Firepower+ No jams.
you can get these as cheap as 700 usd used. Ammo is cheaper than 45 ACP by the 50 at least where I am. These guns come standard with 2 extra mags anyways.
It's not really going to make that much different unless the criminal happens to be "tactical" and wearing body armor and you do in fact have the "armor" piercing rounds loaded, which you most likely will not. Otherwise it is essentially a glorified, higher velocity .22 round. Which is not to say it's a bad weapon, but that's imply what it is. Just like how the .357 SIG is a glorified +P 9mm round. Not that it's not effective, it's just nothing marvelous.
Just got my FsN last week. Probably the most well made tactical style handgun ever made.
No recoil, unbelievable accuracy, and don't have any doubts about the stopping power after it knocked over my steel target stand that even a 12gauge slug wouldn't.
If you're looking for an SMG you can stick in your pocket, here's your gun.
I am having a hard time believing that seeing as how the 5.7 out of the pistol produces around 250ft lb of energy and a 12ga slug puts out around 2,350ft. lbs. I call BS
If a 12 Gauge slug would not knock the steel target down, either you are doing something horribly wrong, missing the target, or simply lying. Physics is not on your side in this argument. I'm not saying you are lying, for all I know you are tell the complete truth, it's just very unusual.
forget this gun, just buy a "CZ-52" or a "russian TT tokerev" they both fire the
7.62x25 tok. round, I bought a cz-52 for $175 bucks,the round goes right through level 2 body armour, and you can buy a 1000 round sealed tin of aumor pericing surplus ammo for $120.00!!! just look it up!!
Ammo is getting easier to find, most larger gun shops will have or can order for you..However if you want AP rounds then its for LE or government agencies only..unless you got a hook up...if so then hook us all up haha..jk
the ammos not that expensive, i shoot mine like a bb-gun xD besides fn signed an agreement with someone to manufacture more 5.7 ammo so the price should come down....even tho its really not that bad imo. Sweet weapon though, xD i have a surefire on mine laser/light combo i love to get the barrel smokin'
i can see why. the ammo is expensive because its a very strange kind of caliber and is really really powerful, my uncle shot this with me and it was just a little to much recoil for him and the gun banged him in the nose lol.
Are you sure he shot a FiveseveN? The recoil on this pistol is less then a 9mm. To actually hit himself on the nose is a pretty incompetent trick.
And ammo is not that expensive, you can find is for ~$20.00 a box of 50 if you know where to look and Fiocchi has been licensed to make more of for all users of the round.
In the EU, we have common regulations, little by little, we open or eyes and become aware of the fact that we should act like a country. We don't have different cultures, but many different languages, but who cares? We can speak 3 or 4 different languages, anyway we all understand english. Try a gunstore that's not close to a city (in the countryside) and all the prices are cheaper
we all have different cultures... and no, we don't all understand english, especially not the french who are some of the fiercest language elitists around.
also, the prices can vary a lot, same as with everything else..
the SS109 ammunition, is not available to the general public (certainly not in Europe). Your ammo won't bring you as much satisfaction and fun as the SS109.
In Belgium give the black market a try, if your uncle's got connections?! Five years ago one could buy a grenade for $20 or a AK-47 + 1000 rounds for $300,- in the northern station in Brussels. One of the reasons why I don't live there anymore!
wtf! NO IT ISNT! if you knew ANYTHING the five seven usg model is available for civilian use. the ss190 round, i think is the kevlar defeating round, is not available for civilian purchase, same as with any armor-peircing round.
It kicks ass for penetration in a pistol, but that's the thing - many experts think the round is NOT so deadly, from a terminal ballistics standpoint.
You get neither the fragmentation, or the expansion of more conventional rounds, and though it's fast, the projectile is small. Wouldn't want to be shot by one, but there are better terminal performers out there.
well, i believe there are hollowpoint rounds, but they are available for police only. also, the bullet tumbles as it travels through your body, creating a large cavity. also, you cant go wrong with 23 rounds.
if someone is wearing body armor then the 9mm HP would be useless and the five seven would penetrate and tumble through them like there was no body armor.
Obviously. Were we not talking about body armor or AP ammo, through. Are you SURE the 5.7 AP ammo tumbles? I know the non-AP ammo will, but I have not read anything about the AP ammo doing the same. My guess would be no but I would be interested if you had a link to some tests. BTW, they make 9mm HP ammo as well..
I got my info from the wikipedia article of the five seven but they quote it as a press release from FN USA, so yes. The five seven rely's on tumbling because it can go around NATO ban of HP and expanding ammo by creating a wound as wide as the bullet's length. BTW I knew there was 9mm HP thats what I carry I'm saying that it would be useless against body armor.
Huh. I will have to look into it. Seems that bullets usually tumble because they will deform and the heavier rear of the bullet tries to force its way forward. Seems like AP ammo would stay in tact for optimal penetration. Oh and I didn't mean HP, sorry. I meant AP :)
yeah even the AP ammo will penetrate level II body armor and still tumle its to get the most damage. If you look at UN and NATO sites you can already see them scowling at this round because it's ability to go around their HP and Expanding bullet warfare ban. I really don't know why they limit how effectively you can kill someone... YOu can only kill them THISSS much, makes no sense to me.
Who cares if they're the rounds don't penetrate? That's why you double-tap. Getting it by two JHP 180 grain .40 S&W rounds in the same spot is worse than being hit by a sledgehammer, you're gonna down either way.
While this is one damn impressive gun, I personally don't think this is something most civilians should have for self defense. The 5.7 round had too much penetration for urban situations, not to mention the stigma of a round designed to pierce body armor.
It's a hot gun but the model made available for citizens in the states is not the same. It's weaker not fully automatic and does not use the armor piercing rounds.
that finger really bothers me they don't seem to have any common sense rules there, however they are fun to watch.
nemenemeo 1 month ago
what did he just call me?
onlygodknows7 5 months ago
hope the cameraman is still alive...
askaryambus 6 months ago
cool just point the pistol at the camera with the finger on the trigger..
OuterOrigin 7 months ago
This is ingenious..!
spritsengiggle 10 months ago
in Russia finger is the safety
scottkuchciak 11 months ago
fn stands for fucking nice
bordersoldier 1 year ago
@bordersoldier je crois que les belles putain sont les personnes qui les utilisent.
louping111 8 months ago
type giftyoutube com in the url bar
gboyd242 1 year ago
Russians never take their finger off the trigger
xdsk0x 1 year ago
They are fairly expensive for polymer-framed pistols, and the ammo is super expensive, but I would still like to have one.
ApsinthionMoon 1 year ago
Is he going to shoot the camera?
scilonthreat 1 year ago
Great Gun...Have three of them! Dude with black coat in video...Kick Ass KGB
Assassin...doesn't get much better than this!
Maxx3933 1 year ago
search this its funny :
Handguns / Pistols Top 10 !!!
alfallag1 1 year ago
I hate people who put english titles and the video is retarted....
FragmentHWG 1 year ago
i guess they dont care about safety in ukraine... the guy was pointing the gun at the camera man with his finger on the trigger pretty tight
281Lee 1 year ago
@281Lee i guys where you live they've never heard of remote controlled cameras?
I mean these arent a couple hicks doing reviews in their backyards with a flip video camera, its pretty obvious they have a little money behind their production
tronclay 1 year ago
especialista con el dedo en el gatillo?
DITOXI 1 year ago
Even though I speak and only understand English. I appreciate this video and
understand from it that it is a BADASS weapon. Better information from these professionals than the DUMNASSES on youtube in English!
Maxx3933 1 year ago
5-7ｶｯｺｲｲですよねｪ～(゜∀゜)ノ Japan
0227903aa 1 year ago
he's not russian it's ukraine
zorcher1982 1 year ago
oh the irony.
twistedenjoyment 1 year ago
Dude, you don't just point a gun around with your finger on the trigger!
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 1 year ago
real good video but WTF!!!!!! are they talkin?
lamela25 1 year ago
In Russia or the Ukraine you must keep your finger on the trigger all the time!
Dasvidaniya Perestroika!
Zdrastvueetee KGB!
Tardisius 1 year ago
Comment removed
evilcupcake12 2 years ago
@evilcupcake12 This is not russian. this is Ukrainian.
OutLawThugLife 1 year ago 4
what's the name of that gun with the box magazine in front of the Trigger? i really want one so i can modify
Umimugo 2 years ago
The one during the opening sequence? It looks a Mauser C96.
Zero9656 2 years ago
ill go check that out
Umimugo 2 years ago
@Umimugo the type 96 is the chinese copy
belgianxghillie 2 years ago
@Umimugo i think
belgianxghillie 2 years ago
get your finger off the trigger you Russian comrade!
GlobalMaffiaWatch 2 years ago 21
@GlobalMaffiaWatch he's not russian.
Sw33pa 1 year ago
@GlobalMaffiaWatch he's not russian.
12ob 1 year ago
@GlobalMaffiaWatch Actually, thats Ukranian
xSOUTHBOUNDENTx 1 year ago 2
@GlobalMaffiaWatch Ya apparently they're not too keen on pistol handling safety
banacek8675 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GlobalMaffiaWatch LMAO.... "get your finger off the trigger you Russian comrade!"...good one.... hope his camera crew made it alive from there....
mfnaushad 9 months ago
this is mother russia broadcasting network
acedude181 2 years ago
english would be nice?????????
chace225 2 years ago 13
@chace225 i agree
mateo19able 1 year ago
@chace225 non ce pistolet est belge et fabriquer a liège donc on parle le français .quand on ne cet rien on ne parle pas un belge
47ferre 1 year ago
@chace225
Didn't u hear? "Five-Seven" is english ;D
Fleischmahn 1 year ago
@chace225 English at 1:35
ApsinthionMoon 1 year ago
@chace225 ...english almost dominate the internet....a few vids in another lingo is nice sometimes.....
wanabee100 1 year ago
@chace225 Dude, most of it is in English with Russian voice-over. Just ignore the Russian and pay attention to the guy speaking English.
ApsinthionMoon 1 year ago
@chace225
Упырь пендоский, иди смотри у своих забугорных.
Artlmed 9 months ago
captainvirgilHilts is a rod receptacle
lordvader789 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you want peace get ready for war
dmxch 2 years ago
Rough translation...American male and female will shoot foot and mother in law. I pooped myself but good gun cheers!!
fiveseven76 2 years ago 3
Only ss190 ammo (steel core) can practically defeat all soft body armour within range, but not hard armour like NIJ level III and further stuff.
ss196 hollow point f.i (civilian version) can not defeat level IIIa soft armour (they claim so)
janius777 2 years ago
Janius777:
I thought ss196 was discontinued. Isn't there a 28 grain ss195lf and a 40 grain ss197sr(for the FN ps90). But,thanks for the info on body armour; thats really all I wanted to know. Have you ever used the PS90 or P90? If so what did you think of it.
jopalo31675 2 years ago
i lke the hl2 music at begining
suzuki834 2 years ago
Exactly what kind of gun laws are there in Turkey. I know that there are quite a few gun makers there: Sarsilmaz, Yavuz, Trabzon, and Akdal(I'm sure there are more). Anyways, it would be nice to know how they do things over there.
jdfarmerboy2640 2 years ago
Gun For Sale Advertisment. Cheap.
Matanjun1970 2 years ago
i have this gun and ps90.
also recently acquired fnp45.
i would carry the five seven during winter - when people wear heavy jackets/many layers of cloth, the five seven will penetrate. i carry fnp45 summer time.
imsooninja 2 years ago
shit, hes speaking Ukrainian, im Russian, lol small miss.
Ontite 2 years ago
It's a one pretty gun.
Limukone 2 years ago
We got lucky. We live in TX, bought one slightly used for $500. Seller also threw in 1000 rounds. Only thing is we had to pay a little extra to have it shipped to a dealer. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this weapon! In fact, it's going to be my concealed carry pistol. Hubby loves it, too!
CHMom1207 3 years ago
The FN sucks. Use a proven caliber, like the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Not this featherweight garbage.
elsamuraiguapo 3 years ago
Well, as devil's advocate, if you're already packing the FN P-90, carrying a sidearm chambered for the same hybrid caliber has some advantages.
I do agree that sticking rounds with a proven track record is best for civvies like me.
taigakirdape 3 years ago 2
As devils advocate, I wouldn't be using an FNP-90 either. Just like the world's elite counter terrorism units, I'd go with the best SMG ever made, the Heckler & Koch MP5.
elsamuraiguapo 3 years ago
True to some degree. But you sound like a complete noob who can't shoot straight.
7amsays 3 years ago
That garbage can pierce 3 bulletproofvests, 20 rounds in magazine.
I bet most of the people posting here have never use a P-90 or a fiveseven
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago
So what if it can pierce kevlar? That's an overrated trait. Certain +P+ steel core Full Metal Jacket 9mm ammo will penetrate kevlar too. Doesn't mean either is a viable choice for self-defense.
You don't need to penetrate an assailant's body armor to incapacitate them. A double-tap from a 9mm to the center mass, body armor or not, will stop a man virtually every time. Its like getting hit in the chest with a sledgehammer.
A small caliber like that of the FN is not a reliable man stopper.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
I don't think that the police officers involved in the North Hollywood shootout in 1997 would agree with your analogy of 9mm bullets being " Sledgehammers", considering that Phillips and Matasareanu combined were hit more than thirty times by 9mm ammunition, as well as .223 caliber rounds, and still managed to fire approximately 1,300 rounds to injure seventeen people.
krt3000 2 years ago
And if .223 round from a rifle failed to do the trick, you think the small caliber pistol FN would have done better?
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
Yes because of its design and the good ammunitions (SS109: pierce 3 bulletproof jackets, tumbles and spins when hitting soft human tissue, doing immediate deadly damages. Don't believe me, try it with SS109 ammo's.) Been a bodyguard for more than 25 years, I've tried a lot of handgun, but it's my favourite, you can't imagine how accurate and how deadly it is. Another advantage is its weight and its magazine capacity (20 rounds + 1 in the chamber)
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago
Well that's good to know, but if it was so great, why hasn't any law enforcement agency adopted it as its sidearm?
The sig sauer p226 will forever be the finest pistol ever crafted.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
It's called budget. Law enforcement agencies do not have infinite sources of cash. If they did, perhaps they would all be driving Ferraris. Besides, police officers don't dictate world standards by any means aside from their own line of work. Neither are they the only ones who use firearms.
FN isn't claiming the 5.7 as " The Best that will ever be", the pistol was designed as a companion to the P90. What's " Ideal" is relative to individuals and situations.
krt3000 2 years ago
Budget huh? How much does the FN Five SeveN cost? I highly doubt its more than a SIG.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
According to the manufacturer's website, the MSRP for a stock SIG SAUER P226 is $975. Five Sevens' normally go for at least $1,000 or more. Comparisons with more prolific models are uneven comparisons considering that there isn't a wide variety of Five Sevens available. We're comparing apples and oranges here.
The availability of ammunition that the Five Seven uses is also an issue.
The Five Seven is not a " SIG-Killer". It's a different animal intended for a different purpose.
krt3000 2 years ago
French GIGN uses it, Belgian DSU also, many countries bought P-90's, but the list is kinda secret. Try one with the SS190 ammo, and not with SS195 or SS196Cheers
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago
Educate yourself. High velocity rounds commonly cause collateral damage. Can you say law suit.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
You educate yourself. A 5.56 fired from a carbine such as the AR-15 has more velocity than the FN round, yet ARs are in the hands of many law enforcement agencies.
You really don't have an argument.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
An 5.56 is not the primary weapon of any law enforcement agency in the world. Ever hear of LEVEL OF FORCE?
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
Yeah. The "LEVEL OF FORCE" generally goes
Verbal Warning -> non-lethal force -> deadly force.
Whenever the police shoot, they shoot to kill, so it really does not matter what type of firearm they're holding, deadly force is the highest level of force they use.
Plus you're being evasive hear. If collateral damage was something LEOs feared, they wouldn't be carrying AR-15s in their patrol cars.
Admit it, the FN's 5.7 isn't as effective or reliable as pistol cartridges (9mm .40S&W .45ACP)
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
actually not quite true, police units ussualy shoot to knock you out, if i recall correctly, they are trained to fire rounds into non lethal areas of your body, in different locations each time so you feel the hits and go down and possible get knocked out, instead of firing directly onto vital organs multiple times to ensure death
BringerOfD 2 years ago
Spoken like someone who has no clue as to what he's talking about.
"they are trained to fire rounds into non lethal areas of your body"
Where did you get that from? Hollywood? Lol.
LEOs are trained to shoot at the center-mass. They will never target a non-lethal area of your body. The only time it's lawful to shoot somebody, it is because they fear their lives are in imminent danger, therefore they shoot to kill the suspect.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
i dont think LEOs are standard day to day cops are they? what i've said is true atleast here in Canada. they will only shoot to kill if the person in question is armed with a gun or anything more. as far as proper procedures that's how its supposed to go. what they actually end up doing in a split second decision is hardly fair observation. i've had conversations about such topics with actual policemen.
btw bit backwards dont you think? since when did hollywood cops not shoot to kill?
BringerOfD 2 years ago
also center mass doesn't necessarily mean lethal. it's just a general area across your body which will have the most stopping power when you're hit (which does not necessarily mean dead)
BringerOfD 2 years ago
blah sry, i got my acronyms mixed up, LEO is regular cop lol. but anyhow that depends on where you're from, and which type of law enforcement officer, for example SWAT = shoot to kill, regular cop on patrol, probably not.
BringerOfD 2 years ago
S.W.A.T.= Special Weapons And Tactics
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
wow. shut up please. Center mass on a human contains the most vital organs. those are the ones needed to keep you alive. if a cop has to fire his weapon he is going to kill you. they are not trained to shoot any where other than a chest shot. If you try to aim and shoot the gun out of their hand or shoot them in the knee you will die. thats all their is to it. You will be in a bloody pool on the ground because you will miss. always aim for the largest part of a human target. always.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
i specificaly refer to the area of which i live, from the information i've gathered, in my area, they are trained to fire across the chest, such as in the shoulder. (this of course does not apply to suspects armed with a firearm) this is for say low risk targets such as a man with a big ass machete or something that they cannot approach safely.
BringerOfD 2 years ago
I have never heard of a LEO that was trained to shoot a suspect to incapacitate them only. I have only ever heard that you shoot center mass until they stop acting aggresively towards you or anyone else. Thats common sense. if they are trying to kill you, you should kill them first. or at least give them enough lead poisoning to stop them in their tracks. I cant imagine why a cop would shoot to wound their target. There is too much that could go wrong.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
like i said, for people who would unlikely be able do further harm if such courtesy is given. such as man with big dangerous knife, which he wont have the energy to swing after he's been shot in the shoulder, NOT the guy with a gun who can still pull the trigger with minimal effort
BringerOfD 2 years ago
and of course said swinging of knife would be ineffective if he's on the ground, whereas man with gun can still kill you if he was down on the ground unable to move 100 meters away. read between the lines, it's a situational thing
BringerOfD 2 years ago
you are missing the whole idea of what I said bringerofd. NO ONE WILL SHOOT FOR THE ARM OR ANYTHING NON-VITAL. Did that clarify it? they dont train to do that. nobody does. its stupid to even attempt it. the only place that shit works is in the movies. If you are put in a situation where you have to draw a weapon on a human target, the last thing you do is try to slow them down with winging shots. All your shots should be center mass only. Thats standard protocol for all LEOs in the US.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago 2
shoulder vs arm, 2 very different things nailing the guy in the upper left or right chest area will take the guy down fast with less risk of killing, it's just as large a target to hit...lol in my area they dont like to kill you with guns, they tazer you to death.
BringerOfD 2 years ago
Actually, if multiple weapons systems are available such systems are classed into force levels. So, again I say that no L.E.A. in the world carries a high velocity weapon as their primary. In fact, in the law enforcement community the .357 sig is often frowned upon for this very reason.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
They're not classed into "force levels" wtf? By the way, what are you talking about when you say "their primary"? Are you referring to their sidearm? Just because they always have their pistol on them, doesn't make it their primary weapon, or weapon of choice. The only reason they use handguns more frequently is because it would obviously be impractical for them to walk around with an M4 slung over their shoulder.
However, when it comes to agencies that issue rifles to their officers....
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
....like the CHP, you'll notice that if given the opportunity, the officers will grab their AR-15 from the cruiser before confronting someone that could potentially be armed. Like during felony vehicle stops, they'll come out with rifles in hand. Or before serving high-risk search warrants. The only time they'll rely in their sidearm is if they don't have access to anything else.
About the .357SIG, I can name two LEAs off the top of my head that use that cartridge. The FAMs and Secret Service.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
You must simply enjoy arguing. In your own words you describe L.E. as eager to seize the opportunity to brandish an assault rifle while simultaneously acknowledging that only increased threat levels warrant such actions.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
Furthermore, out of pure morbid curiosity, do you have any experience with any of the systems we debate?
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
You're obviously contorting what I said. I didn't say they were eager to brandish assault weapons, I said that if they have access to them, they well equip themselves with them, rather then simply rely on their sidearm.
You're trying to argue that different guns are classified into different "force levels" and that's BS. Deadly force is the highest level period. Whether they're shooting with a pistol or a rifle is irrelevant, because shooting someone with a gun is THE last resort.
elsamuraiguapo 2 years ago
....like the CHP, you'll notice that if given the opportunity, the officers will grab their AR-15 from the cruiser before confronting someone that could potentially be armed.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
Does that statement not confirm my argument that a high velocity round such as the 5.56 is reserved for increased threat levels. I'm done arguing a mute point with you. There is a huge gap in the ballistic coefficient of a handgun round and that of a rifle round(Which the 5.7 is). If you actually know any L.E. or military ask their opinion on the matter and learn all the facts before formulating your own.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
I believe that you are the one that enjoys arguing. The other guy here is correct. Officers cant carry an AR-15 around on their back all day. thats why the have sidearms to begin with. so they can carry something smaller and easier to move around with. And there is no such thing as a "Threat Level." turn off your tv. this shit aint a game. There is no procedure for when to use what gun. you use what you have. And the 357 Sig is one of the most widely used rounds in LE right now.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
Did you read the entire debate. Or did you simple read a piece and decide to begin spewing your ignorance. I am a veteran and have forgotten more technical and tactical information than you will ever obtain. I am certain of this. Choose your words more carefully and you may find that people are willing converse with you and you may even gain an insight that you clearly lack. To start, learn about ballistic coefficients. Please do not message me again unless you are willing to educate yourself.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
If you wish to continue correspondence, first discover and then tell me what type of ammunition is used in an A.R. carried by any U.S. L.E.O. And then please analyze this and try to understand why.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
and just for your information 1stillbreathing yes I read the entire debate. you are both acting like 12 year olds. I was replying to the other guy but I noticed that some of your facts were not facts at all. the .357 Sig has more kinetic energy upon impact because of higher velocity and increased expansion over your typical pistol rounds. Those qualities make it ideal for police use. The ammo in an AR-15 used by police depends on the area and dept. but it should be 5.56 frangible ammo.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
Frangible ammo. Because of the rounds low B.C. Further more, the .357sig is frowned upon for this very reason. Such a round is deigned for penetration, not stopping power, and commonly used by security details (secret service or federal air marshals), who are more likely to encounter a combatant in body armor. While it is used by some L.E.O.'s you would be hard pressed to find a department that endorses it, or any round with a low B.C. Collateral damage is always a concern and often paramount.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
Thus stands my original point, that the 5.7mm is not widely accepted in the law enforcement community because of its potential for collateral damage. Perhaps if there were a frangible round available it would receive more attention, however that would lessen it's capabilities for penetration and put it more on par with some of the rounds currently in use. even frangibles from a 5.56 will not penetrate class 3 armor, but are relied upon for increased range and accuracy over a sidearm.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
Almost every department in the state of NC is going to the .357 Sig in the Winchester Ranger SXT. its designed to expand rapidly and stop inside a human target to cause massive damage. I also know of several other state polices that are currently using this round to great effect. I personally have yet to get a .357 Sig but am in the market for one. BTW most hollow point defensive ammo is designed to stop inside a human target giving it greater damage potential.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
I will agree to disagree. My point in this debate was to explain why L.E. will not adopt the 5.7. I have been led off on to many tangents since then, and am getting bored repeating myself. If you have an interest in weapons feel free to check out some of my vids. And the sxt was not designed by winchester, it is a copy of another projectile. My intent is not to offend, but to educate. I entered this debate to advocate the 5.7mm. Which I own and love in the role I have designated it for.
1stillbreathing 2 years ago
the 5.7 is not a very good round for LEOs to use because its so small and will shoot through almost everything. I agree there. The Ranger SXT used to be called the Black Talon, also made by winchester. Its the same round just not black anymore. I will agree to say that the bringerofd guy is a fuckin idiot though. he seems to have watched way too many movies and never shot a pistol before.
s197stangdragger 2 years ago
the police didnt have access to assault rifles whent the shootout was going on otherwise the 5.56 round would have pierced the armor. and the normal 5.56 FMJ round has more armor piercing capability that the special armor piercing 5.7 FN round
BHIHLHLH 2 years ago
Not initially, but some of the officers eventually went to a local gun shop and borrowed .223 caliber rifles, not sure if they were m16s or not. About the same time the first SWAT unit arrived with m16s, and they were used to bring the second shooter down.
krt3000 2 years ago
wow in america u can buy any gun u like...no wonder u lot get shot at lol
VortexNeurofunk 3 years ago
people who get shot dont get shot by legally obtained firearms :3 they get shot by criminals... sad stuff imo canada ftw!
coolstream1 2 years ago
Nice weapon to fire and carry, cost over 1200 USD with tax, ammo easy to find expensive. even civilian rounds penetrate in gell but do tumble. 20 rounds within 3"to4" at 25 meters slow fire, double tap same, short sight radius but points very natural. Mags cost 50 to 60 USD extra if you find. bulk ammo available in Shotgun News good reloadable with work. Damaged cases. dents and throw 12'. Goal is two with conceal shoulder and 6 mags total. 2 in weapon and two spares each.Firepower+ No jams.
Presstitute 3 years ago
you can get these as cheap as 700 usd used. Ammo is cheaper than 45 ACP by the 50 at least where I am. These guns come standard with 2 extra mags anyways.
xBokkiNx 3 years ago
I wonder if any felon would mistake this for a .22 because of the tiny barrel. Of course it would be a big mistake on their part!
monkeyman1140 3 years ago 3
It's not really going to make that much different unless the criminal happens to be "tactical" and wearing body armor and you do in fact have the "armor" piercing rounds loaded, which you most likely will not. Otherwise it is essentially a glorified, higher velocity .22 round. Which is not to say it's a bad weapon, but that's imply what it is. Just like how the .357 SIG is a glorified +P 9mm round. Not that it's not effective, it's just nothing marvelous.
jubeigh13 2 years ago
What is the average grouping? I heard some controversy about it's accuracy.
dawnninjawolf 3 years ago
The guy at 4:50 has very smooth moves!
luxenfux 3 years ago
Four words, very accurate...very deadly.
XarraX9009 3 years ago
one word.............UGLY !!!
pentogram23 3 years ago
finger off the trigger idiot
ZO6 3 years ago 3
Just got my FsN last week. Probably the most well made tactical style handgun ever made.
No recoil, unbelievable accuracy, and don't have any doubts about the stopping power after it knocked over my steel target stand that even a 12gauge slug wouldn't.
If you're looking for an SMG you can stick in your pocket, here's your gun.
skyhop 3 years ago
I am having a hard time believing that seeing as how the 5.7 out of the pistol produces around 250ft lb of energy and a 12ga slug puts out around 2,350ft. lbs. I call BS
gunut4FMJ 3 years ago
If a 12 Gauge slug would not knock the steel target down, either you are doing something horribly wrong, missing the target, or simply lying. Physics is not on your side in this argument. I'm not saying you are lying, for all I know you are tell the complete truth, it's just very unusual.
jubeigh13 2 years ago
forget this gun, just buy a "CZ-52" or a "russian TT tokerev" they both fire the
7.62x25 tok. round, I bought a cz-52 for $175 bucks,the round goes right through level 2 body armour, and you can buy a 1000 round sealed tin of aumor pericing surplus ammo for $120.00!!! just look it up!!
302boyzz 3 years ago
Question, How difficult is it to find ammo?
dawnninjawolf 3 years ago
Ammo is getting easier to find, most larger gun shops will have or can order for you..However if you want AP rounds then its for LE or government agencies only..unless you got a hook up...if so then hook us all up haha..jk
infdecoy 3 years ago
Thanks man! It sucks that they "Nerfed" even the standard ball ammunition! (which by the way could pierce a NATO steel target!
dawnninjawolf 3 years ago
get ur finger off the trigger retard
heywatchitbuddy 3 years ago
the ammos not that expensive, i shoot mine like a bb-gun xD besides fn signed an agreement with someone to manufacture more 5.7 ammo so the price should come down....even tho its really not that bad imo. Sweet weapon though, xD i have a surefire on mine laser/light combo i love to get the barrel smokin'
dgreen002 3 years ago
were can i buy a bb gun in uk ? i dont want to buy a bb online. do they sell them in markets. ? or what shops sell them
stevenwandi 3 years ago
i see they like that song from HL2 "routE canal"
GuitarGuru757 3 years ago
my husband just bought one for $890. ammo was pretty expensive! $39.99 per box. he's in love.
lukilao 3 years ago 5
i can see why. the ammo is expensive because its a very strange kind of caliber and is really really powerful, my uncle shot this with me and it was just a little to much recoil for him and the gun banged him in the nose lol.
leonkennedy74 3 years ago
Are you sure he shot a FiveseveN? The recoil on this pistol is less then a 9mm. To actually hit himself on the nose is a pretty incompetent trick.
And ammo is not that expensive, you can find is for ~$20.00 a box of 50 if you know where to look and Fiocchi has been licensed to make more of for all users of the round.
Ehbiker 3 years ago
pretty damn sure it was a Five Seven. my uncle lives over seas and the ammo was much more expensive on the Euro.
leonkennedy74 3 years ago
I can see it being expensive in Europe...everything is more expensive there. A can of Soda can be $2.00 and that is cheap!
Gugesmk3 3 years ago
depends on where you are in europe.. its a continent, not a country. different prices, different markets, different cultures.
Synthiotics 3 years ago
In the EU, we have common regulations, little by little, we open or eyes and become aware of the fact that we should act like a country. We don't have different cultures, but many different languages, but who cares? We can speak 3 or 4 different languages, anyway we all understand english. Try a gunstore that's not close to a city (in the countryside) and all the prices are cheaper
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago
we all have different cultures... and no, we don't all understand english, especially not the french who are some of the fiercest language elitists around.
also, the prices can vary a lot, same as with everything else..
rResurgam 2 years ago
the SS109 ammunition, is not available to the general public (certainly not in Europe). Your ammo won't bring you as much satisfaction and fun as the SS109.
In Belgium give the black market a try, if your uncle's got connections?! Five years ago one could buy a grenade for $20 or a AK-47 + 1000 rounds for $300,- in the northern station in Brussels. One of the reasons why I don't live there anymore!
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago
thats the one reason i don't prefer them its a strange caliber and more expensive to fire
lonegunman69 3 years ago
how much is a five seven i want one soo bad
cjth3on3 3 years ago
your looking 800 plus retail. i got mine for 750
stefanh86 3 years ago
I've heard as much as $1,200 and as low as $800 NIB. I want one too. Great ballistics and penetration.
gandb21 3 years ago
wtf! NO IT ISNT! if you knew ANYTHING the five seven usg model is available for civilian use. the ss190 round, i think is the kevlar defeating round, is not available for civilian purchase, same as with any armor-peircing round.
finalreckoning 3 years ago
Wrong! In Florida you can buy armor piercing rounds. Go to any guns show there and many vendors are selling them for a variety of calibers.
sturm98 3 years ago
It kicks ass for penetration in a pistol, but that's the thing - many experts think the round is NOT so deadly, from a terminal ballistics standpoint.
You get neither the fragmentation, or the expansion of more conventional rounds, and though it's fast, the projectile is small. Wouldn't want to be shot by one, but there are better terminal performers out there.
K0wK1lla 4 years ago 4
well, i believe there are hollowpoint rounds, but they are available for police only. also, the bullet tumbles as it travels through your body, creating a large cavity. also, you cant go wrong with 23 rounds.
finalreckoning 3 years ago
You can buy VMAX rounds which will expand instantly on impact.
labartic 3 years ago
the five seven has been documented to reliably tumble
it does have more stopping power than 9mm +p for sure
hideopalescent 3 years ago
A tumble out of that tiny bullet doesn't really compare to a 9mm HP drilling a ~.45" hole.
gunut4FMJ 3 years ago
if someone is wearing body armor then the 9mm HP would be useless and the five seven would penetrate and tumble through them like there was no body armor.
xBokkiNx 3 years ago
Obviously. Were we not talking about body armor or AP ammo, through. Are you SURE the 5.7 AP ammo tumbles? I know the non-AP ammo will, but I have not read anything about the AP ammo doing the same. My guess would be no but I would be interested if you had a link to some tests. BTW, they make 9mm HP ammo as well..
gunut4FMJ 3 years ago
I got my info from the wikipedia article of the five seven but they quote it as a press release from FN USA, so yes. The five seven rely's on tumbling because it can go around NATO ban of HP and expanding ammo by creating a wound as wide as the bullet's length. BTW I knew there was 9mm HP thats what I carry I'm saying that it would be useless against body armor.
xBokkiNx 3 years ago
Huh. I will have to look into it. Seems that bullets usually tumble because they will deform and the heavier rear of the bullet tries to force its way forward. Seems like AP ammo would stay in tact for optimal penetration. Oh and I didn't mean HP, sorry. I meant AP :)
gunut4FMJ 3 years ago
yeah even the AP ammo will penetrate level II body armor and still tumle its to get the most damage. If you look at UN and NATO sites you can already see them scowling at this round because it's ability to go around their HP and Expanding bullet warfare ban. I really don't know why they limit how effectively you can kill someone... YOu can only kill them THISSS much, makes no sense to me.
xBokkiNx 3 years ago
The 5.45x39 has been doing this since the 70s and is much more lethal. The UN can suck it! That no HP crap is BS, just like the UN.
gunut4FMJ 3 years ago 2
dude I totally agree I'm just happy that another company figured out ow to et around their bullshit regulations.
xBokkiNx 3 years ago
Who cares if they're the rounds don't penetrate? That's why you double-tap. Getting it by two JHP 180 grain .40 S&W rounds in the same spot is worse than being hit by a sledgehammer, you're gonna down either way.
elsamuraiguapo 3 years ago
This cartridge can pass everything! So good penetration!
ThaSweKillah 4 years ago
While this is one damn impressive gun, I personally don't think this is something most civilians should have for self defense. The 5.7 round had too much penetration for urban situations, not to mention the stigma of a round designed to pierce body armor.
ZER0EATER 4 years ago
How about home defence against a tyrannical government? Don't forget ball 57 is illegal, so this gun is pretty nerfed when it comes to civs.
jebustheone 4 years ago 3
It's a hot gun but the model made available for citizens in the states is not the same. It's weaker not fully automatic and does not use the armor piercing rounds.
komjong 4 years ago
Were i live a level 3 vest go for 170 on the street.
blacksuite1 4 years ago
Nice! And it's even available here in California. Off to the gun store!
toogawn 4 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
sure you are.
Tovarish100 4 years ago
Aren't guns/ammo designated AP restricted for civilian use?
BloodyPuppy 4 years ago
Yeah they are. Thats why civilian 5.7 ammo has a plastic tip: it stops the APness of the round. 57 is nerfed for civ use.
jebustheone 4 years ago
Belgian weaponry <3
Impossible to get in Belgium though as civilian. :[
Vinbelg 4 years ago
give the black market a try (Brussels, liège, antwerp)
brokenheartedmaddog 2 years ago