Mark Schultz Disqualification in 1984 Olympics

[Nick209Diaz]

textbook kimura throw ryt dur

[SoberAllmanBrosFan]

At a BU wrestling camp, I heard a guest speaker speak about the Schultz bros. He said, you always knew when they were wrestling, even if you weren't in the room at the time, because you could hear guys screaming in pain. & how about that compliment?! Too overzealous! Tenacity is the number 1 component of wrestling. Also, think about UFC/all mma. How often do we see elbow breaks like that?! mark broke it at will, like it was a child's toy!

[to5ov]

1984?? Can you really call that olimpics??? I dont think so..

[amanrob]

Idk about today but for many years there were threats towards mark from Turks. I know that they were still going on in the mid 90's.

[GBDazzler]

Its been used for a long time in wrestler watch gogshelidze vs gazyumov, gogshelidze hits this on the clinch. And gogshelidze would have no clue of mma or bjj.

[GBDazzler]

Its been used for a long time in wrestler watch gogshelidze vs gazyumov, gogshelidze hits this on the clinch.

[DoAction]

I recently watched a video where Chael Sonnen, who used to wrestling under Schultz, and Sonnen claimed that Schultz once told him that the only thing that beat Wrestling is Jiu Jitsu. Watch the video, it's a 10th Planet video, the Portland one. Has anyone ever recall hearing, or reading something in regards to Schultz' views on BJJ? BTW he was the first to teach Chael BJJ.

[vineyardst1]

He illegaly finished the career of Resit Karabacak who was 30 then. He thought he was facing a wrestler...

[olbrocko]

That was a kimura. He probably severely damaged his shoulder. Brutal.

[ukuleleprodigy]

Schultz went to my high school. great wrestler

[FireProMMA]

Frank A. Gotch double wrist lock. Believe it or not, Kimura was more known for his time in professional wrestling than his defeat of the unknown Gracie clan at this time. I've read some of his obituaries, and none mention him beating Helio.

[getsetrecords]

lol Awesome Kimura!!!

[WhiteLander88]

To HumbleWhitebelt, the "kimura" (or double wrist lock) has been used for thousands of years. Here's a site showing old pics from the early 1900's of catch wrestler Earle Liederman applying many variations of the double wrist lock: gnarlmaster.tripod.com/gnarlma­ster/Doublewristlock

If that's not enough, then google double wrist lock and you'll see that the Asians/ Brazilians merely changed the name, NOT the technique.

[ukuleleprodigy]

Yaaa represent Palo Alto wrestling!

[gavipk]

ude garami!!!

[gonz2459]

he kimora'd his ass!

[JackJames4444]

Rather than argueing about which style is best you should be fighting with the individuals strength. As Bruce Lee the founder of MMA stated, the best way is no way. In the end all fighting, like life, is situational and personal to your abilities.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

"double wrist hold" or kimura?

[morgall]

you can say both

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

well you can call a big mac a cheeseburger but thats not the name, its the description of the subject

[morgall]

Kimura is a double wrist lock, and a double wrist lock is kimura..Double wrist lock mostly says the american Catch wrestlers, and Kimura the BJJ and Judo people...end of story.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

the move was created by you know who. and thats why it is called a kimura by anyone who knows anything about the origin of the move. anyone who knows of it as a double wrist lock is (a) just naming the move by what they see happening. and/or (b) doesnt know anything about other grappling arts. bjj judo sambo ect. end of story

[tgtennis]

Not quite - it is called an ude garame in Judo, but your basic point holds true. Trying to claim 100% credit for the move would be like trying to claim 100% credit for the jab or hook.

[DirektorMK]

@morgall

Judo people don't say kimura, they say ude garami.

[judopathoftruth]

@morgall ude garami. kimura was the man who used it to destroy helio gracie

[WABWSM]

@HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ

double wrist lock was around hundreds of years before the term Kimura or BJJ period.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

haha. thats incorrect. but if its true,show me a link to a video or even a picture of someone doing it before kimura's time

[WABWSM]

Frank Gotch. end of fucking story.

[WABWSM]

also BJJ wasn't moderized until the 20th Century while Sceinetific or catch wrestling's techniques are as old as the ancient spartans with Pankration. I was refering to the term. not the technique. it's the same damn thing so your an idiot if you want to fight about the name.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

oscar the grouch. end of fucking story... what does saying a ramdom name prove? like i said, show me a link to any video or picture of a wrestler using the move before kimuras time

[WABWSM]

if you knew who that was you would understand he was a master of the double wristlock using long before BJJ was even founded. also your user name is a fucking lie.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

hahahaha. is that what it has come to? Attacking the legitimacy of my youtube user name? Lol wow. You STILL have not given any pictureor video of someone using the "double wrist lock" before kimura. So just lay your king down before you resort to threatening to kick my ass if I don't agree with you

[WABWSM]

sorry dude had to mess with you about it. you were right. kimura and double wrist lock are two completely different movements. I had them mixed up. but the double wrist has been around since the times of Pankration therefore I was right in that it was an older technique. and a bit more reliable for an amatuer.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

its all good, I've been mistaken many times before

[matburn155]

I wrestled in High School, then transitioned to BJJ, and I wish I knew half of the things I knew in BJJ...they would have hapled my wrestling. With that being said I still think wrestling is a great base to transition to BJJ, or even MMA(which I also do). The mental toughness of a great wrestler is second to none.

[wisconsinwrestling]

I actually lived in Brazil for 8 years and helped a number of guys transition from BJJ or Judo to wrestling. Wrestling is NOT a sport in Brazil, but with the popularity of MMA, it has become a bit more common to see.

[matburn155]

One person that immediately comes to mind is Renato "Babalu" Sobral. Incredibly great at BJJ and MMA, but few people know he trains freestyle wrestling just as much as BJJ these days.

[goofy775]

@matburn155 you obviously didn't do very well in wrestling... because if you did wrestle heavily and at a high level.. going to bjj would be like hitting a brick wall. They're completely different sports and you'd have to slowly adapt. Very different ideologies and methods with some things crossing over etc(can't think of many bjj tech that would translate into a wrestling match so it would be nice to hear some)... and in case it matters I do train in bjj.. grappling is my passion.

[abbeykroeter]

@goofy775 You're opening a can of worms with the "hitting a brick wall" analogy. It all depends on your style. I wrestled for many years off and on- developed a higher level on my own after high school- and as long as I improvised enough to keep my back from exposure, many BJJ sweeps from the bottom helped. The other way (wrestling to BJJ) obviously helps with some habits changed (like giving your back to avoid a pin). I dominated the other low-level BJJ students when I started,

[stevemarce1988]

Ude Garami

[grathapilot]

what's a 'kimura'? that's a chicken wing, bishes!

speak english or die! (-;

[ColdHearted]

Kimura dominated helio

Helio is good and all.

But Kimura made him his bitch.

[HumbleWhiteBeltBJJ]

in all fairness, he had a lot of weight on helio

[ColdHearted]

And Kimura did say that Helios a winner if he lasts more then 3minutes... He lasted like 12 or so.

[quezzie13]

man if he didn't try to crank it at the end it might have slipped by. he should have used it as a pure sweep. In the old days this move was totally legal. its a shame such a good wrestler lost the gold medal the way he did

[Zabbai]

Good move. I think I'll try that.

[Tethros]

Kimura FTW!

[KIRBYSLAYERm14]

mark told me about this today as he was coaching me and he was laughing through the whole thing.

man his gotten old

[RightWingCon81]

LMAO he kimuraed him. THat's funny. I don't know wrestling but i know BJJ and that's a submission hold, surprised to see it in freestyle wrestling.

[supercoolguy55]

Guess he won't be getting his 100 virgins when he goes back to turkey!

[supercoolguy55]

This gives me so much enjoyment, the turk had it coming

[ManicHispanic18]

that move was okay to do

[duanedragon2]

The Schultz brothers were legendary.

If there is a single defining moment where wrestling diverged from it's origins as a combat sport to an irrelevant intramural activity this was it.

[kevts135]

"irrelevant intramural activity"? If you want a blood battle go fight in the streets.

I want something that requires intelligence, skill, and finess.

Athletes not brawlers.

[SakoYo]

This move did not originate in BJJ, it originated in Catch Wrestling and was originally called the "double wrist lock". the Brazilians decided to called it the "Kimura" after Masahiko Kimura tapped Helio Gracie with it.

[RightWingCon81]

It's arguable who invented it. It was in judo for quite some time. A variation of it can be seen in an ancient greek sculpture whoever invented it doesn't matter, BJJ took it to another level.

[kempobrad]

yep...down a notch.

[RightWingCon81]

Yep, BJJ can get it from guard, and half guard, from the feet, from side control, from the top of half guard, hell even from the bottom of side control. Yep we sure took it down a notch, I mean everyone knows that this move was better when it was a non-submission hold defense in wrestling and when it was a one dementional top position hold in judo. BJJ sure fucked it up by making it practicle for self defense and versitile.

[kempobrad]

and all of those ways bjj learned from other arts lol ...it was never a non submission hold as you can clearly see in this video, broke the guys arm for crying outloud, thats why its illegal. bjj didnt create anything. this was a catch wrestling hold before it was ever in judo or bjj. and since when was it a one dimensional top position hold in judo?

[RightWingCon81]

It is legal in certain events so long as it's a defensive move not intended to break the arm. As i already mentioned this move was used by the Greeks thousands of years before any faggoty catch wrestlers were even born, and the fact remains that BJJ revolutionized all MAs esp. by creating an effective game from one's back. Judo doesn't have that, I've rolled with Judo black and brown belts with my BJJ blue belt and DESTROY them, catch wreslting doesn't have that either.

[kempobrad]

bjj didnt create anything. you never said anything about pankration (which is where catch wrestling comes from btw) that i saw. and catch wrestling does have a "guard" it's just not called a guard. of course you can defeat a judoka on the ground, they hardly ever do their newaza anymore.

[RightWingCon81]

I never said it created it, I made it very clear it's been around for a long time. I did elude to pankration I spoke of the greek statues. A smarter person would have seen that. Catch wrestling has a guard only to move back to a top position they can't finish from their back to save their lives, and somtimes it just might. And ALL MAs come from pankration even asian arts from when the greeks crossed the hindu kush. And who does catch anymore? No one.

[kempobrad]

you should learn more about catch they have plenty of techniques from their back. maeda was a catch wrestler named count coma afterall so to some extent if you do bjj you do a bit of catch as well. its well known he traded techniques with catch wrestlers and many other arts. pretty much every leg lock you know comes from catch cuz it sure didn't come from judo. there are depictions inside some of the pyramids in egypt that even predate greece...so not every art comes from pankration.

[RightWingCon81]

Maeda wrestled professionally and that was usually done without a gi and in a ring on a circut so it was called catch wrestling. BJJ took every technique from varying arts to vcreate something unique, new and innovative. Just type Gracie Vs. or BJJ vs. or jiujitsu vs. into youtube and you'll see BJJ rape every other art.

And while there are drawings that predate pankration all arts known to us today have their roots in pankration. Fuck dude, people have been FIGHTING from the beginning.

[kempobrad]

yet you can see plenty of bjj guys getting ktfo by muay thai guys in mma all the time. the only reason bjj "raped" anything is simply because they were fighting strikers most of the time. royce couldnt tap out ken shamrock afterall. there's nothing new about bjj. if helio had to modify things to not require strength, he was simply doing it wrong in the first place. and my point was, even pankration had to come from somewhere. like you said, people have been fighting forever.

[RightWingCon81]

BJJ guys are getting knocked out by who? Muay Thai guys who are doing BJJ, there is NO ONE in MMA today who hasn't trained BJJ. Add to this the fact that many BJJ guys like Penn, and Mir are also accomplished strikers and in the case of a GREAT bjjer like penn he gets knocked out on his feet when he's striking and not clinching like old school BJJ, OR he gets knocked out by AWESOME striekrs/BJJers like GSP! And Royce tapped Shamrock in UFC 1 by choke watch the video. He also triangled Severn.

[kempobrad]

but bjj has nothing to do with getting knocked out on your feet, so its pretty much a non issue. if mma has taught anything to the world its that one range isn't enough. even everyone's precious bjj. why else would bj and mir add striking to their game? which is what i said. bjj wont be any help if you get knocked out by a thai fighter. or...a mma fighter who's using muay thai at the time he knocks you out. anderson silva rarely goes down and he ko's alot of people.

[RightWingCon81]

You seem to think that BJJ is simply a ground fighting style. It's not, they teach you to avoid punches, get out of range, close the distance then do your takedown and go for your ground game. Hard to do that when you'reout trying to be a muay thai guy and trading with a guy. These guys add striking to their game because they know that the other guy often knows BJJ and they want an edge, ie a different style.

[kempobrad]

anything can happen. a bjj guy can get knocked out just as a thai or karate fighter can get submitted. so how can anyone say one is better than the other?

[RightWingCon81]

The truth is that the better grappler will usually win if the grappler actually grapples. That makes the grappling arts BETTER, and BJJ has proven itself the BEST grappling art. Muay Thai is AWESOME they train well with aliveness as Matt Thornton calls it it's a legit art, but apples to apples BJJ is better in a fight each uing their own art, again, look at the gracie challenges.

[kempobrad]

i myself favor grappling as well, but you can't discount the number of ko's in mma today. all a striker has to do is learn how to avoid a takedown which usually is where greco or amateur wrestling enters the picture and the bjj guys can't do shit. thats why they ALL cross train. and there are plenty of non bjj fighters that have beaten bjj, henderson, coleman, severn, taktarov, sakuraba of course...the man is more important than the art. by sheer numbers alone bjj will win most of the time.

[kempobrad]

take bjj vs sambo as an example. there are simply alot more people doing bjj than there are doing sambo so obviously bjj will come out on top. but it's sheer numbers, or individual talent that reigns, not 'my art is better than your art'

[RightWingCon81]

When two BJJ guys go against each other they nulify each other and stand up comes in, BJJ beats BJJ. Wrestlers can stop the usual MMA takedowns ie wrestling takedowns, but get good judo takedowns or old Royce stule upright takedons and they can't do shit. All of these men you mention above are trained at least somewhat in BJJ Sakuraba is a judoka and also trained with BJJErs.

[kempobrad]

lol if you say so, and Saku is most certainly not a judoka. he's a catch wrestler who trained mostly with Billy Robinson, then went pro later. he also wrestled in his college days. listen, the point is, if you cant get the guy to the ground bjj sucks. so it the fight ends standing without ever going down, bjj didn't even play a factor. you need to go a few rounds with a good wrestler

[RightWingCon81]

Saku is trained in judo as well as BJJ and several other arts. I'm not going to sit here and say BJJ is invincible, not even Helio Gracie (RIP)said that, he said anyone can get a lucky punch and end a fight on the feet, but we have to play the odds and BJJ takes it home if we look at that.Just like Royce been severn, and the other wrestlers on the ticket at the earlier UFCs a one dementional wrestler will get raped against a good BJJer,esp if he uses upright takedowns the wrestler can't defend.

[kempobrad]

"lucky punch" lol ..i never seen or read anything about sakuraba training bjj or judo. why would he need to if he's a catch wrestler since it contains pretty much everything in both of those arts? there is no need. catch has it all, even 'standing takedowns' as you call them, hip throws..everything. i really don't know where you get that wrestlers cant defend upright takedowns lol but just as a note, wrestling and catch wrestling are two very different things.

[kempobrad]

forgot...i agree RIP Helio. you also said name one good fighter who never trained bjj...Kimura. threw Helio around like a rag doll ;)

[trenttrentwillmandam]

its not about the name of the discipline your in...its about your ability to use the different teqnichues in that discipline. and your athletic ability.

[RightWingCon81]

No style will help me if I get KOed what stupidity is that? I'm not concious so I can't fight. Can a PURE muay thai guy KO a good BJJ guy? Sure, a lucky punch can always happen, but the probablity is that the BJJ guy will avoid punches and take the fight to te ground where the muay thai guy is lost. This isn't me just talking, it's an objective reality that can be logically verified just look at UFCs 123 and 4. Look at any current MMA fight everyone who gets KOed is not doing pure BJJ.

[kempobrad]

thats the point...they ALL cross train because their art by itself is not enough. bjj alone will not do you any good if you can't get the guy to the ground. purity is irrelevant.

[RightWingCon81]

BJJers have to cross train becauseEVERY fighter worth his salt is a BJJ fighter on some level cross training is essential at that point, we will agree on that.

[kempobrad]

that's just incorrect. not every fighter worth his salt trains in bjj.

[RightWingCon81]

Name ONE good, and I mean GOOD MMA fighter who has NO BJJ training whatsoever. Remember to discount ALL Militich (sp) guys including Hughes because of MJJ Militich is a BJJ blackbelt but calls his system MJJ. Lesner is trained in MMA too.

[kempobrad]

name one good mma fighter who hasn't trained in a striking art. they don't exist. the bottom line is, 1 style isn't enough..period. bjj as good as it is, wil not do you much good if you can't take the person down..period. just like karate or muay thai will not do you any good if you can't stay on your feet.

[RightWingCon81]

Look at Perisian, no one can stop his takedowns because he uses upright judo takedowns. Plus, what will a wrestler do? Stop my takedowns in order to what? TAKE ME DOWN! I've done grappling tourneys with awesome wrestlers and I usually get knocked on my ass, but once on the ground, the wrestler is lost in my guard. BJJ is a striking art as well as a ground fighting system. We have the jab, the leg kick, the clinch off a jab. A striker can't do shit if I close the distance or keep away.

[RightWingCon81]

He also tapped Jiu-jitsu expert Remco Pardoel who was also a European judo champ and that other judo guy whose name escapes me. Anyway, look at any fight today you have guys who know enough BJJ to defend takedowns and you have BJJ guys trying to be Muay thai guays and they get caught.

[chondoor]

wow the college state championship.....idiot

[kjkjkjkjkjkj2008]

That is a rolling Kimura as one of the posters pointed out. Seems Mark copied it from BJJ or some other grappling system. Bottom line is, if he knew how to perform the move, undoubtedly he knew its effects and yet he went he did it anyway and ended some dude's career. He's a coward and a cheater.

[ophs160]

Illegal, yes. Cheating, no. Cowardly, no. I don't know how much freestyle experience you have but during this time period everybody was pushing the envelope as far as they could with regards to how much punishment was allowed. This is a legal move if the wrist is kept inside the hip in front of the body. BTW, accusing Mark Schultz, one of the toughest wrestlers of all time, of being a coward is absurd. Between him and his brother Dave...2 of the best america has ever produced.

[moonbeamlynn]

It looks like a great move. yeah it hurts but who ever said wrestling was for a pussy.

[Millertime9969]

Illegal and cheap. Kolat did this in a state championship in college and the kid couldn't continue and instead of DQ'ing Kolat, they gave him an injury default win. It's a fucking rolling Kimura.

[pjkwas]

You are exactly right...

[heath146]

I like there blue suits

[joeypantaleo]

hahahahahaha!

[Bihonte]

wisconsinwrestling, my friend john curtis who wrestled for george mason said dave schultz was the best technician he ever knew. He said the first time he trained with him, Dave told him what takedowns he was going to do on him and did it. Dave Schultz's death was a tragedy

[BiHStriker]

gee, wtf he kimuraed the guy, with a over the shoulder throw..man thats a brutal, but i think i am gona use it in mma,and bjj

[NixonTerrell]

did that guys arm break

[wisconsinwrestling]

Yep. Arm broke and he was taken out of the competition. Mark was "penalized" by being disqualified, but since the other guy could no longer compete, Mark went on to win the Gold. Both Schultz were assigned a "special ref" to watch only for illegal moves. In my opinion, that ref didn't do a great job, as Dave used an "illegal" move in the finals which resulted in a takedown. Not taking ANYTHING away from Dave, probably the best technician ever!

[MrMZaccone]

@wisconsinwrestling That move was a favorite of Masahiko Kimura, in Judo.

[James92802]

Only a wanker would do that.

Its Olympic wrestling, not maim & disfigure.

Wrist lock is illegal, only reason to go there is you think you are going to loose.

This is like Tyson biting Holyfield ear off.

Without any class at all.

[kneeknott]

nicely done! Bravo!!

[robnajar]

Basic Catch Wrestling move.

[Riceratt]

The rules change practically every year, might've been illegal at this time. I've been a freestyle/greco roman referee since about 8 years now, seen so many moves being illegalized or legalized

[geneticman13]

yep your so right . double wristlock anyone....

freestyle wrestling came from catch ? !