NORMAN FINKELSTEIN ATTACKS THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY, etc.

[nevskixx]

I spent many houers with my teacher. We did not look at the clock. The "cadenzas" in the Brahms First was studied section by section and in 4 hours one evening it was perfect. I cannot go wrong with it. It takes hours and dedication. It's a painful process, especially when one also does another profession.I also started late, but did change the technique in the end. I can play Bach without any pedal at all - just a touch for colour.Of course harmony is essential as well to playing.

[ididete]

@nevskixx doing music in my experience, depends on luck to a great extent. You either find a professor who will work with you for free or for little money many hours, or you are rich, or you live in a Western country and are mainstream middle class person. If you don't live in the West, and if your country was ravaged by war and 20 years long economic crisis, then you rely on the teachers' goodness of heart. That's why I do philosophy. THere you are on your own.

[nevskixx]

@ididete Yes, like with all things, luck plays a big part, though it does not always have to be associated with money. Talent is very important too, and if one has it, some how luck can find you. Wars, economics and background all play a part in determining where one ends up, but no one person's destiny is determined. Every individual makes their own way, and sometimes "luck" can find you. If you have talent, don't ever give in.

[ididete]

@nevskixx I don't need your encouragement and hypocritical advice. I have been more talented than anyone I know for both piano and singing and the luck has passed me by. Just because you live in the UK and have no idea how it is to live in a poor country and to struggle for basic necessities, doesn't give you the right to lecture other people. Stick to the luck you have undeservedly gotten, just by being born in the UK>

[nevskixx]

I have played the piano most of my life and still play. At the moment I'm studying Bach's 2nd Partita and the first contrapunctus from the Art of Fugue. I get to perform from time to time.

[darkillity]

I not very fond of Hitchens. But don't Finkelstein's comments seem a bit too ad hominem?

[nevskixx]

@darkillity Absolutely ad hominem! The tone is ad hominem. Finkelstein is not a heavyweight thinker.A polemicist. He cites international law , amnesty international, discredited sources as sacred tomes and fonts of knowledge, which they are so rarely not Superficial, insulting, sanctimonious and in the end, a very sad human being, because of the misery he causes to others.

[ididete]

@nevskixx oh you have just shitted a large shit. In a 6 min video you can't say anything more than express your vehement disagreement -- and it means something to people like myself who share an opinion about Hitchens. Norman Finkelstein is such a complete, honest intellectual and I am sure he talks about this in his book. Why don't you anal-operator try to write a book -- with all argumentation, explanation and everything? Or are you just sucking dick to your superior?

[nevskixx]

@ididete I have listened to Finkelstein in a number of contexts to have made my comment. If you want to "discuss" or learn more about my reasoning and why I have said it, be free to ask, but I will not answer a foul mouthed person. I do not deserve your personal vitriol. You don't know me and I don't know you.I wasn't referring to Hitchens, who I have some issues with, by the way.

[ididete]

@nevskixx You are right,you don't deserve my personal vitriol. I apologize. My prejudice about you was based on my great experience with American intellectual impotence and hypocrisy -- they are able to avoid any force of argumentation, attach themselves a stupid detail in someone's discussion and judge the whole argument by it. I have a lot of respect for Finkelstein intellectualism and personality-- his courage, his accuracy and his honesty.I don't judge him by his angry episodes.

[nevskixx]

@ididete The apology is accepted. You say about American intellectual impotence etc because they: "attach themselves a stupid detail in someone's discussion and judge the whole argument by it." To allow me to respond, can you give an example?Finkelstein in my view allows his politics to get too much in front of his historiography. He does not argue too strongly with himself in case it upsets his political position.This allows his critics easy criticism of him.

[ididete]

@nevskixx I spent 5 years in the US as a graduate student.I was speaking from personal experience.American university professors are extremely snobby and I haven't met a single one of them that is an honest person.If they don't like your opinions as a student, they will not even read your dissertation, but will instead read a few lines that they find questionable,take them out of context and try to repudiate you according to that.In my experience Am. univ. profs. are not honest readers

[nevskixx]

@ididete I can relate to that. and it was not in the US either. Students who cosy up to the lecturer tended to get more attention. As we came out of the toilet to go and sit a criminology paper, my colleague, a Kenyan remarked: "For the next 3 hours I am a Marxist!"

[ididete]

@nevskixx Dishonesty is a general feature of people who go to college because the professors themselves are no longer any kind of moral authority whatsoever. They sleep with their students, have no integrity and are just out there for their asses. And when a graduate student with passion for their work approaches them for help and guidance they play deaf.

[nevskixx]

@ididete Change of subject. Are you a musician?

[ididete]

@nevskixx yes, I sing opera for myself at home -- studied for a few years, then dropped, then continued doing it for my own pleasure. I am pretty good too. I played piano for 10 years too. And you?

[nevskixx]

@ididete What operas are on the top of your list?

[ididete]

@nevskixxx I don't respect opera as much as I respect piano music. I just happen to love my own voice which is fabulous -- will prove it in a few months when I finish my phD and get back in shape regarding singing. But if you ask me which operas I like to hear, they are: The Magic Flute, The Marriage of Figaro, Tristan and Isolde, Carmen, Turandot. Lucky you for playing the piano! I wish I still had my piano but I sold it for having money to go to the US.

[nevskixx]

@ididete The Mozart is faultless. Love this music no matter how many times I hear it. I'd add the Don and Cosi as well. In addition to your list I also love Verdi's Otello,Don Carlos. Have you heard Franco Corelli's Calaf in Turandot?It's on YT somewhere. Good that you have a good voice. Pity you let the piano go, I'm sure you'll get one soon.It's a magnificent instrument. Few are real masters. My teacher is a wonderful musician and his teacher was a real master.

[ididete]

@nevskixx Yes, Corelli is precisely the reason why I love Turandot. As for the piano -- I am happy typing philosophy and fiction (eventually) to the keybord. I love singing because it's a physical activity too, it requires a lot of rightly-placed, properly executed abdominal strength. That art of singing is lost today. People prefer to sing lightly and to sing with one third of their true voice strength.

[nevskixx]

@ididete Yes I agree. And a lot has been lost in today's teaching of the piano. The loss of a pure legato, without pedal, the production of a full bodied warm tone, ideal for Beethoven that demands a rich cantabile. Good on you to identify the essence of the technique of yesteryear, Those musicians gave out music on the basis that their whole life depended on it. Less so today and to our loss.

[ididete]

@nevskixx The reason why abandoned piano is because when I was 17 I started working with a teacher who studied in Russia.She totally dismantled my former technique and was teaching me LEGATO,the one you mention I guess,the one that's gotten if the whole focus of your arm strength is transferred to the very tip of your fingers and you "take" the key, almost at the level of your nails(that's how I practiced) rather than hitting it from above.Her technique was right,but it was too late

[jedeye15]

Absolute pawnage!!! - love the Fink!

[butterscotch1171]

used to love Hitchens. but after the Arab spring, all his stuff on Islamofascists became mostly irrelevant. 

[anrchyvk]

total destruction.



[MenOfLetters]

Norman destroyed Hitchens the scumbag.

[Redcarpet01]

@MenOfLetters Yah, did you notice Hitch tried to gain sympathy by claiming to be Jewish? How lame.

[MenOfLetters]

@Redcarpet01 Hitch got dynamited by Finkelstein. Consult his obituary for the cancerous neocon. It will make you laugh.

[Magenta408]

Wolfowiztz is an asshole.

[Magenta408]

This is not Norman Finkelstein!!

[zkandinawia]

@Magenta408 It is. 100% sure, seen the video footage of this interview.

[MrJdouble1998]

Flim-Flamy Norman is more hung up on Hitchens than Hitchens is on him.

[Onepretentiousdude]

@MrJdouble1998

This is the first rant Finkelstein's ever done on Hitchens, and the only one.

[besmb2105]

The film is made by Mel Gibson. If we go back to things he has said, and the way jews are portrayed in the film(Ive seen it, a couple of times), I say yes...its every reason to criticise the film. Im no supporter of Israel, I just say it with an objective opinion.

Christopher Hitchens may have opinions I dont agree with(such as the Iraq - war), but one cannot deny he is very intelligent.

[gulshabbo]

@imrich6 Please post the original video on YouTube! I have seen the full interview somewhere else on the Internet, but that recording has too many stops and starts..

[fsalhin99]

whose voice is this?? i thought it was N Finklestien but its not

[Jelperman]

Hitchens can eat a bowl of dicks.

[meeter]

@Jelperman That has to be one of the most satisfying comments I've ever heard. I'm not being sarcastic. It's pure gold.

[MACKATTACK1970]

@Jelperman He has and he truly admits it.

[l3lip]

@Jelperman

The fuck? Already at the final resort of a failed intellectual argument - the ad hominem. Nice!

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

And about the Hitch just wants to get in front of the camera thing. Hitchens still likes to slam Mel Gibson's movie, Mother Theresa, Henry Kissinger, the Clinton's etc. long after doing so went way out of vogue. It's not all about the lime light with Hitchens, he believes what he says, rather that gets him on TV or not. Though he definitely took Vidal's advice, "never miss an opportunity to have sex, or appear on TV" :D

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

I've read a lot of Hitchens stuff going back well before the Iraq War debacle. Finkelstein is acting like Hitchens is a guy who swaps positions and ideals on a whim. After reading Hitchens, it would have been a surprise to me only if he came out against the Iraq War, or at least Hussein's removal. He didn't go from Chomsky to Wolfowitz, Trotsky to Bush. He went from Hitchens to Hitchens, a real mis-characterization on Finkelstein's part here. Though I enjoy Finkelstein's work as well.

[phooey108]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth

wasnt he opposed to the first Gulf War, which there was actually a much stronger case for? (Kuwait, a UN security council mandate)

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

@phooey108

He was kind of opposed to it, kind of not. He made points about how hypocritical the first Bush administration was and how if the U.S. was going to do something they should have done it in 1987 when the Kurds were being massacred in northern Iraq. But he really started to move towards an interventionist policy touring the country in the gulf war's aftermath, and continued to do so through the Clinton years. It was a slow process, but completed a good time before 9/11 or George W.

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth

He gives a more complete account of this transition in his Memoir, which I recommend. Anyway, at this point I probably should say I still think he was wrong about the Iraq war, but his reasons aren't flippant.

[Redcarpet01]

@phooey108 Yep. There was also a 2002 article in The Guardian Hitch wrote which was against the impending invasion of Iraq too. He made great arguments against it then.

[Arkinight]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth youtube.com/watch?v=EkDPJMB-oU­s

So when you call the invasion of Iraq a 'liberation' and inform the audience that the 82nd Airborne is fighting for their right you don't break down in laughter? You take this shit serious?

"He didn't go from Chomsky to Wolfowitz, Trotsky to Bush. He went from Hitchens to Hitchens, a real mis-characterization on Finkelstein's part here."

What is the miss-characterization? He's very obviously whitewashing everything the US and Britain do.

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

@Arkinight

I think it sounds foolish just like you do. I'm just saying he's being serious and not just being contrary to the "mainstream opinion" or whatever.

The mis-characterization is that Finkelstein is making it sound like he was piggybacking on the opinions of Paul Wolfowitz and the like for superficial reasons. Hitchens developed his opinions on his own, over time, and held them long before Bush even took office. And once again, I think he was/is wrong.

[DorianGrayism]

@Arkinight

No, not really. He has acknowledged that they have imperialistic reasons to enter Iraq. However, even taking those reasons into account, his argument is that the installation of the new government is still better than the dictator that was better than before. (Incidentally, opinion polls, show the Iraqi's agree).

Anyway, even though liberation isn't the goal of the Iraq Invasion, it is a necessary by product of it. Therefore, it is a liberation from a dictator.

[phooey108]

@DorianGrayism

you would have a forceful point if the death count wasnt so high and post liberation services (electricy, water) werent worse than they were under Saddam's regime

[QwidgyboMan]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth

Hitchens changed his position on Mesopotamia and he acknowledges that. Furthermore, he used to defend Chomsky against slanders about his campaign of writing for East Timor which was critical of people like Wolfowitz. Hitchens has since befriended Paul Wolfowitz, a known terrorist supporter. Hitchens has both oscillated and become hypocritical on these matters afaic and this is coming from a fan of his.

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

@QwidgyboMan I don't disagree, my point was he came to this changes with his own thinking, and wasn't merely taking the position to get on tv or for other superficial reasons.

[Redcarpet01]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth To know that, you'd have to be telepathic though.

[NoRegretsForOurYouth]

@Redcarpet01 Just reading his stuff, you can see the slow migration towards interventionist policy, but you're right, I can't be sure, that's just my take.

[Redcarpet01]

@NoRegretsForOurYouth look up 'Hawks in the dovecote', the guardian, Sunday 25 August 2002

[Stillwell86]

I have never heard Finkelstein so rilled up! You are right, champ, fuck all those fake basterds!

[solitarionoturno1]

I LOVE NORMAN!!!!

HE HAS COURAGE.

[scotts689]

Finkelstein is just a loudmouth now full of insults and cheap shots. Tell me when was the last time he gave a proper response to anyone instead of just gutter snipes at their character.

[nabukodinasser]

This man Wolfofitz his hair is proper to make of real badger hair like most ashkeNAZI sionist.

And he wipes his nose all the time with hands and shaking hands with W. Bush every day. Finally, the two heads are the closest shimpanzé.

[gulshabbo]

Thanks for posting this segment. Please consider posting the entire interview!

[gulshabbo]

Brilliant commentary.

[guyincognito84]

I feel so conflicted.....both Hitchens and Finkelstein are my heroes......but I guess when it comes to political matters I tend to agree with Finkelstein more.....Hitchens' brilliance is on philosophy and theology.

[ANTIDALLARD]

THIS MAN IS MY HERO.

[degas5000]

I love Finkelstein's honestly... also that the people he calls names really are assholes.

[jimmutennodesu]

This is fantastic. Where can I find the whole recording?

[phooey108]

@jimmutennodesu

see the link in the description

[ReliableInsider]

He's claiming that talented, influential Jewish people don't really care about the Holocaust? And he bases that on the fact that his friends didn't pepper his parents with questions about their experience?

What is -Finkelstein- talking about???

[phooey108]

@ReliableInsider

That isnt only thing he bases his comments on. Read his polemic, the Holocaust Industry, for more clarification. You can find it without much trouble online.

[marx102]

@ReliableInsider

He is saying that no one cared(past tense) about the Holocaust back in his childhood. That the survivors were considered to be not the good Jews because the good Jews all perished in the camps. It wasn't until 1967 that the Holocaust became a talking point. YOu should try to listen closer to hear what people are actually saying.

Typical Hasbara

[Uncle99B]

@ReliableInsider; The Holocaust is a religion for organized jewry. They seem to be in love with it -- building memorials and museums to it in every major city, getting it as part of the curriculum in US schools, putting out several new movies about it every year, running newspaper articles on it quite frequently, spreading knowledge of it into China, referring to in consistently when discussing Israel and other topics. No other people are so obssessed with their own tragedies and victimhood.

[phooey108]

@Uncle99B

well it was two generations ago, and 6 million of them were exterminated in assembly line fashion. but the fact that it's used to promote wars and human rights violations is a bitter pill to swallow, I agree.

[Uncle99B]

Israel cannot exist without the support/power of American Jews. The Zionists were/are afraid that the American jews will just become Americans just as did German Americans, Polish Americans, Irish Americans, etc. and not care about Israel. Therefore they must be made to feel they are a special, victimized group who need Israel to survive. Bunch of lies. The Nazis killed over 20 million soviets yet we hear nothing about that -- ever. But the 6 million Jews number is heard every day

[phooey108]

@Uncle99B

I'm with you on the poor recognition of the millions of people slaughtered by the Nazis in the USSR. It's obnoxious because some of them gave their lives to liberate Auschwitz and other Nazi extermination camps. But the Russians and other Slavic victims were never going to be venerated in the mainstream, because they were under the banner of the USSR, which was the enemy of the west until the early 90s.

[Uncle99B]

@phooey108: There has been a concerted effort for decades to raise the level of Jewish victimhood. Forget the centuries of bondage and genocide of africans, forget the genocide of native peoples....crimes which actually took place on our own soil. The Holocaust -- the Jews in the Holocaust -- are the biggest victims ever. This agenda is pushed for financial and economic reasons

[JohnnyRock2000]

@Uncle99B - Yes I remember history books of the 60's. The Holocaust was noted for sure...the famous shot of those two furnace doors. But it was a chapter of the history of the war. Now when you ask the youth about WWII there is no knowledge of the war of the Pacific, or Russia or outside of Europe. It's all about Nazis and Jews. That's all the young have knowledge about. In ever major newspaper, everyday, you will find some mention of the Holocaust.

[szargary]

@Uncle99B

it's incomparable! the Nazis has a goal to wipe the Jews off earth, and they had a systematic slaughter industry which no one and no where had before. And also, because the Germans and Europe supposed of being "intellectual" and "enlightened", opposed to Africans, who the Europeans themselves has a patronizing attitude and calls them "Barbarians". .. the real question you should ask is: why now, with genocide in Africa, in Russia, in Labia, and so on, why is the "Israeli occupation"...

[szargary]

... still being the center of the worlds attention and criticism, while there are much much more horrors happened around the world, which no-one criticized, and if someones do, it's only in 2 minutes on the sides... the Israel-Palestinian conflict stands in the middle of every news and conversation. You know why is like that? few reasons: 1. is simple Antisemitism, it's a long history of blaming the Jews in every world's accident. 2. The Arabs make a strong propaganda because they are all over

[Uncle99B]

@szargary How does the fact that bad things go on elsewhere in the world excuse the 60 plus year occupation and oppression of the Palestinians by the Zionists. Why are you conflating Zionism and Judaism? The arabs control the mass media, not the Zionists? What?

[szargary]

Absolute horsesh&t. The Arabs whom called themselves "Palestinians", could have a land of their own in 1947, with much greater area they could get now or in the future. The UN gave an offer for both Jews and Arabs to share the land. What did Arabs do? Take a guess, it's not hard to know the fact, but obviously you are not formilliar with the history. In 1967 Arab countries attacked Israel from north east and south, and they lost, since then Israel holds the territories are now negotiated and..

[szargary]

@szargary

being rejected over again during 2000 peace talks.

but let's say that you have a strong observation and already decided who's right and who's wrong in this matter. I hardly believe you are going take a glimpse in the other point of view, or look at some facts.

[Uncle99B]

@szargary .  In 1967 Israel attacked Egypt and Jordan, capturing land tnat she continues to occupy 44 years later. Let's get our facts straight, shall we.

[szargary]

... in campuses all over the world, and they have a clear goal: to make a world negative opinion on Israel, and by that to de-legitimize Israel and it's right to exist. that's exactly what happens now, and they know to push the right buttons. That's why Ahmadinajad and Iran try to portray a false picture of the holocaust, and make the new generations, which are not familiar with the facts, to believe it was just a part of the war, like every other war. And another thing is that every others...

[szargary]

...who being victimized by other nation or people, has the right to tell about it and teach about it. That's what the American education system does about the Indians history and the Afro-Americans history. The reason why we keep on insisting to tell the story of the holocaust is, to prevent of spreading lies about it, and make this black era in human history to pale. Just think about what's happening now: If Iran will achieve their goal of having a nuclear weapon, and if they will achieve ...

[szargary]

...their goal of de-legitimize Israel and if people around the world will continue to ignore this situation, like it happened in during Hitler's regime. Remember that Hitler also blame the Jews in causing the WW2, and the other nations in Europe kept ignoring what he kept on doing on invading Poland and the weak countries he started with, and gaining power from spreading hatred and using the ignorant of others to flourish, while he kept on declaring a clear goal, just like Ahmadinajad doing now

[szargary]

...which is to build an enterprise of it's own kind: an Aryan race then, a Muslim-Fanatic control now.

[Uncle99B]

@szargary . The de-legitimization of Israel is due to her own acts

[szargary]

@Uncle99B

You so right! Like Hitler was right blaming the Jews for causing the WW2 and their own genocide, Like Stalin accused the Jews for being an anti-communists, while Hitler accused the Jews of being "Bolsheviks"...like Christians blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus... it's an old antisemitic terminology to justify horrors and throw sand in the eyes of the ignorant masses. But you know already that Jews are the strongest people in the world, not with money - but in faith and brains...

[Uncle99B]

@szargary .  The reason that the Jews are inevitably kicked out of every country they are in is that they never learn from their past. They are led to believe that they are hated and persecuted for no reason whatsoever. So they again engage in the same behavior that has hurt them in the past -- accumulating great wealth an power at the expense of those not in their group -- followed bu the eventual backlash against their damaging behavior.

[Uncle99B]

@szargary If you want to prevent lies about the Holocaust (and there have been many -- making Jews into soap and lampshades, death camps in germnay proper, 4 million killed at Auschwitz), then why are ideas outside the official narrative punished by imprisonment on many European countries?

[szargary]

@Uncle99B

It is clear now that you are brainwashed and know nothing about what happened during the holocaust, or either worst, maybe you just deny it. And I am not the one who's going to give you a lesson in history on this matter. If you like to look for yourself to be more educated, you will probably read some books and watch some filmed evidence and there's a lot of it. Or, maybe you just fed with the holocaust deniers propaganda. You chose what you're feed with and who you're teachers are

[Uncle99B]

@szargary. Absolute horsesh&t. The wealthiest, most powerful group in the nation as the worst victims. The wrongs done to the Jewish people cannot come close to what has been done to the native peoples and african americans.

[szargary]

Like I said: if someones being victimized by others he should be telling the story of it. It's obvious you don't pay attention to what I wrote.

[duckmonsterX]

@phooey108 Yep, and thats really the nut of Finkelstein's issue with what he calls the Holocaust industry. He does NOT deny its existence,, as he said he was born in the aftermath of the slaughter as the child of its survivors. And he does not deny the importance of the event. What he rails against is that we haven't learned its lesson. The lesson of the holocaust is NOT that the jews are special snowflakes or anything like that. The lesson is that racism and nationaism lead to horror. And yet..

[marx102]

what is this from?

[GorterPoss]

Finkelstein is too worked up about Hitchens. Clearly there is an element of theatre in Hitchens prose and speech. He is well read. sharp, quick-witted. incisive and he uses these things to great theatrical effect which I think he rather enjoys reveling in.  However, I wouldn't call it showboating because ultimately Hitchens really doesn't care if his audience is entertained or agrees with him.

[marx102]

@GorterPoss

To discover our true human nature, Freud once wrote, just reverse society's moral exhortations: if the Commandment says not to commit adultery, it's because we all want to. This simple game can be played with Hitchens as well: when he avows, "I attempt to write as if I did not care what reviewers said, what peers thought, or what prevailing opinion might be," one should read, "My every word is calculated for its public effect."

-Norm Finkelstein

[GorterPoss]

@marx102 I believe Finkelstein is only partially right. Watch his debates on youtube and you'll notice that Hitchens' delivery is just as important as his content. If he is anything he is a performer. As long as he delivers good theatre in the form of humouyr and snappy comebacks I believe he's happy, so that he really doesn't care if you don't totally agree with him. The 'calculation for public effect' pertains only to the theatrical element of his arguments.