@USTreasuryBond You are completely wrong in your assessment. What do you think created the largest middle class in US history post-Word War II? The progressive tax. The wealthiest paid a high tax rate, that left them still able to live quite comfortably. The middle and lower class payed taxes as well, but no to such a point that they would starve. So if you hate taxes so much, don't drive on roads, or go to the library, or national parks, or any other thing that is supported by taxes.
The problem is that you WON"T have enough money. Sounds good in theory Howard, and we've heard it over and over again for decades, but tax hikes do NOT increase tax revenues. You used capitalism to get rich off your best selling book, how much in taxes did you pay? Did you give more?
well i remember the first days of this talk, he will raise the taxes of rich..wow...it became a big deal...people were afraid thinking super rich will be destroyed by another slice of pizza giving to poor..i dont understand people...rich gets more in this country, endless credits, and poor doesnt even have a health care..
@alinn71 thats why it is why the economic values or plutonism is crushing now..lol...i dont think so..everything is planned ..unfortunately the middle class destruction continues no matter what..we pay high taxes on our pay check, and house taxing..and i think it is not fair for the super rich paying almost same percentage as me...
WE cannot change a damn thing working within the same systems that have caused the worlds problems. we need to quit playing their game while simultaneoulsy developing new systems. new systems with reagrd ..hi regard ..the highest regard to our oNLY commonality...nature nad its laws.
"We need people... who are doing very well to form an alliance with people at the bottom in order to bring about change."
I really think this common ground is the key. However the media has filtered our reality so that the poor see the wealthy as greedy crooks, and the wealthy see the poor as a lazy burden on society. I hope we can get past this accepted form of discrimination. We're all Americans. It's time to act like it.
please, correct me if i'm wrong. these two jews discussing the Bolshewik revolution and class struggle? as they did in the Soviet Union, which resulted in the death of 100 million people? no workers or proletarians ever got to a paradise over there. Only the kommissars, the KGB, the Anarchist committee of Moscow, the Party members had a decent life. the rest had to work, work, work, and show up at aParade, cheering their leaders.
@MrAlienlovechild The same entity(The State) that steals(taxation) money is the entity coercively destroying the dollar they force on society. Everything should be voluntary with a voluntary medium of exchange, the exact opposite of criminal socialism.
Everything should be voluntary, period; anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
@ranthony1903 My dear sir, I most appreciate the silly and pompous tone which you bring to this conversation. It doth tickle my sense of the humorous! Some people grew the food which I have eaten today, and I bought it with money I earned filing paperwork. I'll leave it to you to figure out whose service is more essential.
@brandensc If i was religious, i'd say he's in a better place. Since i'm not religious, i'll just say he's found peace now :). He fought to inform people his whole life, so he very well deserves his rest!
@freedomthrough Money is a medium of exchange that naturally occurs when society wants to exit a barbaric barter system. Taxation is theft, and people that initiate taxation theft should be charged as such.
@qwertypoiu4321 As a matter of fact, physical money is a commodity and thus, any trade where it takes part is barter. Taxation is a way to balance the money supply, nothing else. I wish you a happy life in a tax-free society :D.
@freedomthrough Money is a medium of exchange. Taxation is robbery, all goods and services should be part of the voluntary sector, not the criminal coercive sector. Anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
@qwertypoiu4321 And thus, it works as a commodity :D. Okay, get rid of taxation and watch inflation rise to the skies. The government "gave" you the money in the first place, by putting it in circulation when spending/lending. Taxation is a way to regulate purchasing power, nothing more. If you abolish taxes, you might as well abolish fiat currency at the same time.
@freedomthrough The same entity(The State) that steals(taxation) money is the entity coercively destroying the dollar they force on society. Everything should be voluntary with a voluntary medium of exchange, the exact opposite of criminal socialism.
Everything should be voluntary, period; anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
@freedomthrough Voluntary Sector Arbitration, and self-defense to legitimate violence, not illegitimate coercion. Anarchists are not Voluntarists, they are just another group of criminals that have given themselves a different label.
I don't understand the message. Does the bill scott walker is pushing eliminate unions?: I thought it just makes it so workers don't have to join. WE NEED FREEDOM OF CHOICE NOT FORCED UNION DUES
@nottinmatterz2day It takes away the right for the public unions to collectively bargain. I like how Jon Stewart put it "Unions without collective bargaining is just a bunch of people wearing the same shirt". It basically takes what teeth these unions have and rips them out, leaving them basically obsolete. The only tools a union would have left is strike action.
@Mabuza14 anyone can strike. I don't like the idea of a mob forcing a business to raise their pay or anything. if they're all in such bad conditions how come they can't just talk to each other and if people don't like it they can quit. FInd another job.
boycott if its some company. if its teachers, the community needs to decide how much to pay them
@nottinmatterz2day That's why I said it's their last weapon, anybody can do it. Define mob, an organized mass of workers united in their cause does not sound like a "mob". Collective bargaining is "just talking to each other" which is what they're getting rid of. They're getting rid of their right to come to the table and even have a civilized conversation. And it's easier to say find another job if you don't like your current one because of your boss.
@Mabuza14 some kind of additional right not normally there is how i was seeing a mob. like if america were a democracy say in 1845 and 51% voted to keep slavery legal. or give any other example where the majority is using their power to take something away from a minority.
if we had true free market capitalism and with the ability to tax imports we'd have more jobs here, and still be propsering like we did in many past decades. Then if a company is immoral you quit, you tell others, boycott
@nottinmatterz2day So how are the workers like a mob? If I'm not mistaken capitalism(in theory) rests on the fact that exchanges are willful. If workers want to organize and bargain for a wage, for benefits,etc, it's their right correct? And if management does not want to give in to what the workers want then the workers can withhold their labor and go on strike. What's like a mob in this situation?
@nottinmatterz2day If we had "true" free market capitalism the working people in this country would be screwed just like they were when we did have free market capitalism. It might have been glorious for some people, but for the majority of workers it was not at all. And what happens when you quit your job?You seem to think that's such a light thing to do,maybe you don't have a family,bills,and other expenses to pay for.You might understand if you did, if you do I don't understand your mentalty.
@Mabuza14 make your own business, do what you like. free market, less regulations.
should have saved money instead of buying material goods.
it wasn't good in the 50s or 60s for the workers? growing middle class?
there's always a lower class theres always people dumber than other people that are not going to do very well but they can still survive, we're not starving like africans or egyptians were that caused them to start a revolution.
@nottinmatterz2day Again take a little closer look at reality, everybody can't just start their own business. This is always the advice given but it's absolutely impossible for the vast majority of people, because the system is set up so that the vast majority of us HAVE to be working class. It doesn't matter whether you go around buying material goods or not.
@nottinmatterz2day Miners in the 70's were still having to struggle for wages that didn't lock them into poverty, they were still getting shot and killed by hired thugs by the company when they striked, etc. I'm not going around buying "material goods" what I and my family buy are necessities and a little something like internet and cable, that's about it. No PS3 or anything like that for me I'm not awash in wealth and "material goods".
@nottinmatterz2day We didn't have a freer market back in those days anyways, when I'm talking about free market capitalism in our country, we're talking about 1800's-mid 1900's.
@nottinmatterz2day That doesn't show free market capitalism in the 1950's. Then we had a minimum wage, welfare, Social Security, etc, etc, with a ton of regulations. Nothing like we had in the 1800's and mid 1900's.
@nottinmatterz2day Think about it, you have a job, if you quit you wouldn't. How would you pay your bills, feed your family, and then you might not find work. And if you do find work there is no chance that you're going to like those conditions either. You see you've got to realize the fact that all these arguments are bunk when applied to the real world when the workers' option is between different bosses he/she won't like. Study our labor history, see how it really happened.
Taxes and class war? You mean we either must exploit people by having wage slaves, or by taxing people? Maybe property and taxes are just two different aspects of Babylon.
I hear you. Zinn Misspeaks here. I don't believe he is trying to deceive or mislead but tries to articulate his position that the tax burden in the US is not carried by the wealthy.
The wealthy don't make money off taxes in the sense that taxes are a market, service or commodity. I believe he was trying to express that the rich have rigged the system to avoid having to paying their fair share of taxes. I happen to agree with him.
This man is for class war. My experience is that those who are for class war, and on the political left, want class war against the middle class. They seek this as a way to break down society so that they can reform it into a form which they deem as desirable. My question is, and shall always be a question to the civilized, is, 'how can you improve on nature'? Men are not gods. Notice that he calls himself an anarchist, yet says that there must be taxes. A flat tax would be fair.
@JasonDamisch You misunderstand some key concepts here. First of all, one cannot be for or against class struggle. It is already upon us and it's as old as civilized society. Class struggle is an inevitable fact of life particularly in a capitalist environment. In fact, most of the rights and freedoms you enjoy today, as an American citizen, are direct results of class conflicts in the past. [...]
@JasonDamisch (contd.) If anyone wants a "war against the middle class", it's certainly not the political left. It was actually republican governments, particularly the Bush family, who can take credit for destroying the middle class and increasing government spending to astronomic levels. Under Clinton, America was seeing a budget surplus of over 200 billion $ every year.
Zinn is one of the greatest minds of our time....science needs to be applied to the way we handle resources and how we govern ourselves.....racism, classism, war, capitalism are all obsolete....its your choice if you want to buy overpriced gas and give the government more money to build bigger tanks and nicer guns all your life while the rest of us move on
@lictor313 zinn is hardly anymore racist or anti-anything than the super rich...do you actually believe the super rich cares if you are white, patriotic or ignorant of history? why would
He shades the truth. Andrew Mellon did lower tax rates,they became MORE progressive. The total tax take for the top incomes trippled, while the bottom rates were reduced. See Wikipedia
So, the issue is the size of government, how much of an individuals life and labor should the elites and government own? Today, tax progressivity is at almost a 100 year high. Zinn wants to tax the higher incomes because, A - that's where the money is and B - they don't have the votes to stop it.
the children of the enlightenment need to come out the real adam smithonian conservative free market advocates and the classical liberals who both argued for equality but believed in different theories that would bring equality. iam a libertarian socialist but i believe that libertarian free market advocators (the real ones) are my natural allies its just i dnt agree with their perspective on how to achieve equality and freedom from outside orders, but both of us have no voice in da public arena
go back to reading marcuse along with you drug addled shitbag buddies. Keep supporting an ideology that only wants your enslavemtn and complete subjugation.
Your kind is the very definition of what Aristotle called the "Born Slave"... a creature who wants and therefore DESERVES a master...
Government can do nothing efficient save harm people. Taxation is merely a form of indirect slavery that is imposed upon us by our masters to keep us under control.
The only way to a truly free society is Anarcho-Capitalism
@Consrvatev That's an oxymoron. If taxes are indirect slavery, then wage slavery is even worse. (Though I think slavery is too strong a word for this context).
@ahumancertainty if anything is an oxymoron it is "wage slavery," and no the word slavery is not too strong a word for this context. Money is the physical manifestation of your mind, your ability, and most importantly your TIME. When the government takes money out of your pay check it is invariably taking away your time to be forcibly used upon other affairs, i.e. public works. thus, taxation is the slyest form of slavery ever devised and somehow we have all been willing to accept it as
@Consrvatev Or rather a gross exaggeration of the word slavery which undermines the suffering of people who actually were slaves. Using money to represent our labor is a useless abstraction which sets the stage for exploitation. Capitalism is a lazy excuse for avoiding the effort of organizing a truly functional society.
@ahumancertainty how else do you wish to represent our labor? there are few other ways, that i can think of, to tabulate the total amount of blood, sweat, tears, and thoughts that go into that which we produce. perhaps you could enlighten me?
as for capitalism being "a lazy excuse for avoiding the effort of organizing a truly functional society," what would you say is a "truly functional society?"
@Consrvatev The problem is this need for tabulation. We only need to keep exact track of our labor because we are trying to defend ourselves from each other. We are working for our own personal survival against the will of the system, rather than working for an outright common good. Working class people work just as hard as middle and upper class people if not harder. That is a sign of a nonfunctional society and the major thing we need to address.
@ahumancertainty if there is no need for tabulation, no need to take all that you have done into account, then what is the point of working at all? But you still do not answer my question. if money is not a satisfactory method of judging ability, then what is? And yes, you are right, "working class" people do work just as hard as "middle" and "upper class" do, but the question is, what kind of work is being done? are the "proletariat" innovating new ideas or just following the template they were
@ahumancertainty given over and over again? Yes, the "workers" do the grunt work for little pay, and it may seem unfair, but the "bourgeois" make more by virtue that they invest more of their mental powers into their work, improving and innovating. True some were born into this "bourgeois" class, but unless they are just as innovating as their forefathers they will not remain there for long, same goes for the "proletariat" but in opposite.
@Consrvatev How about the quality of the work I produce? That should be a good indicator of how hard I work. Many upper class people don't innovate at all to stay on top. Most people work service jobs in the U.S. and the people that do own businesses don't necessarily need to innovate to survive. The work that unskilled laborers do (like grow food) is far more important than most business owners who only exist due to capitalism as middle men.
@Consrvatev Not necessary unless we are conditioned to think only within the framework of capitalism. I don't see why we would need to determine a measure for our labor other than the actual useful product we derive from it.
@Consrvatev How about we measure our labor by the amount of widgets we produce per hour. I don't know. This is a pointless question. What does it matter? Either people want things and they do what is necessary to have them or they don't.
@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag to follow the herd by sheer virtue that there are more members in the herd does not make for good logic. One should never just give up and admit fault simply because more people disagree with you than agree with you
@MrAlienlovechild Yea, God forbid we blaspheme against the great saint, Howard Zinn. Instead of discussing issues, we should just silence all the dissenters of the left.
Zinn is a liar and a fraud. In the first minute he lies saying that Education and the Media try to prevent people from realizing that taxes are relative to class (or income). Teachers, pols, and Newspeople almost always talk about making the rich pay more because "they can afford it." That and he didn't even answer the q.
@theCrimosnBeard A very small minority of newspeople say that. And I don't know what you mean, my economics teacher was a capitalist, he said so himself when I claimed socialism was better.
@Winterwolf00 People in the media might not explicitly say "eat the rich," but just the language that is used shows their beliefs, such as when they act as if the Bush tax cuts lower tax rates for the rich below some undefined minimum that they owe to the government, or deliberately ignore the higher burden they shoulder.
And of course an economics teacher is going to favor capitalism, but instructors in the majority of the other fields (especially fluff classes) don't.
@theCrimosnBeard I think you're confused. When I went to school we were taught that capitalism is the greatest system ever and we owe our standard of living to it. For my entire life I've heard nothing but how important it is to keep taxes low on the wealthy. The media in the US is almost entirely pro big business. Issues that affect the working class are mostly ignored. What we really have in the US is big government socialism for the rich and dog eat dog capitalism for workers.
@reefsofspace When did you go to school? the 1950's? Nowadays teachers are giving credit for students attending leftist rallies. I had a teacher that called Reagan "the economic anti-christ." And even Ben Stein has gone on television to say the Rich don't pay enough taxes.
I will agree, though, that we have socialism for big business (aka: light fascism).
If the policies and ideas set forth in this interview were to ever take place (more so than they already are) you can say hello to the world Ayn Rand created in Atlas Shrugged. Have you ever heard of a poor person creating thousands of jobs and creating wealth that a whole society prospers from, all originating from his or her own selfish drive to create wealth? No. I love how the opening credits say Zinn is anti-war but dose not have a problem with inciting a class war.
@samoht1ry5 You do know that Ayn Rand had no understanding of the history of wealth in America, right? You do know that she had almost no understanding of economics, right? Ayn Rand wrote a fantasy novel. A silly story about hard driving capitalists who create rail roads from the sweat of their brow. Want to know how Taggart Transcontinental really started? Government subsidies, government land grants, and lots of people working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. You guys go Galt, we don't need you.
Under a fiat monetary system (which is what the United States has), taxes do not fund anything - they are simply the means by which dollars are given value. That is, they create a demand for the fiat monetary system. Any funding is accomplished through money creation
@hint0122 That is only true of federal income tax. The poor pay a disproportionate amount of their income in state income tax, property tax (which is included in their rent by the landlord), food tax, and sales tax.
Undoubtedly. Which doesn't alter the fact that Howard Zinn and Amy Goodman were/are both pieces of shit who made/make their living selling anti-americanism to moronic Berkeley types and other adolescents who imagine themselves to be highly intelligent and revolutionary when all they really are is a counter culture cartoon. The only real problem with that is that they tend to be Education majors and then go on to rot the brains of children. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting how the super-rich bleat about people on welfare. Like we can afford to support them, the top 15 per cent, with excessive incomes and luxury way above and beyond their needs or usefulness, we can bail bankers out, but we can't afford to keep the bottom 15 percent in poverty, on a mere subsistence. So far, they have fooled the self-employed and better paid workers into thinking the same way, but it's an unsustainable facade of common interest as capitalism heads into another slump.
Class will be the last thing mentioned in most debates over discrimination. It's sad because that is the one common factor amongst every other group that could unite them all in the process of real change. Instead we fight about petty things like white/black, gay/straight, Jew/Muslim, Creation/Darwin. I know poor people of every color, gender, sexual preference, etc. Class is the scariest word a politician could hear in an open forum.
class warfare as rich vs poor is so inadequate. taxes are enforced by the state. that's real class warfare. those with arbitrary authority vs those with none. true consent of the governed is the only way to abolish class warfare. that means no taxation without consent!
You believe that a man has the right to rape someone's wife or girlfriend if he's unable to get a girlfriend?
I don't know what kind of fucked up greedy people you are but you have absolutely no right to violate anyone's rights because you want what they have PERIOD.
@RevengeOfRedBaron The top 15 percent are taking what other people have produced each and every day. Or are you saying they work fantastically long shifts to "earn" millions each week? Yes, folks have become confortable through their own efforts and sweat, and nobody would deprive them of that. It's obscene and unnecessary wealth, a la Rupert Murdoch/Bailed out bankers still awarding themselves millions before they pay us, the taxpayers, back what we loaned them. They are no longer sustainable.
The taxes from the top 10% make up over half of the US government's income. The bottom 50% don't pay taxes. I'm not saying that they're tax dodgers, they just don't have to pay taxes.
HALF OF THE PEOPLE IN THE US DON'T PAY TAXES. And it's not the wealthy, it's the poorer half of the population.
The lower classes don't even contribute anything and believe that they're entitled to the money that a taxpaying person earned?
So let me get this right: If i work hard, go to college, write a best selling book or invent something new and become very rich as a result. Then I should be taxed to all hell for being successful?
Because you benefit from the society that enabled you to achieve your wealth, you can afford to give some back. If you want to live somewhere where it's strictly the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, etc then try moving to a 3rd world country that has no safety net at all, where you can lord it over the have-nots.
Because you benefit from the society that enabled you to achieve your wealth, you can afford to give some back. If you want to live somewhere where it's strictly the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, etc then try moving to a 3rd world country that has no safety net at all, where you can lord it over the have-nots. Generally, things go better when everyone does better, not just the rich.
yep because your idea of success is accumulating as much income as possible which is a ass-backwards belief. americans don't understand the term "standard of living" like other civilized countries do. they equate happiness with an accumulation of useless material bullshit and money they won't ever spend. Its a burden on the poor and the middle class. WAKE UP
@DuffmanIRL I have known some "anarchists" who were really cruddy peope -- absolute users. Grifters, really! But then I think back to my university studies, and what I have learned on my own . . . those who fear or reject the anarchists out of hand, they are brainwashed non-thinkers. I say, you go. I would be honored if you would check out cute cat faith dot come and subscribe to my two YouTube channels and on Dailymotion, too, where I am "LisaFalour." Honored.
In Latin America, the problem is that when the "people's ruler" gets into power, he turns into a rich corrupt guy just like the previous one. Obama got lots of money from the bankers. He will be no different. Zinn should have understood the message of human nature as portrayed by Orwell in Animal Farm.
There is nothing wrong with being a firefighter, teacher, police officer, librarian, Sanitation worker, or any other we the people worker. They're some people who would like to corporatize the flow of ,we the people's, work to the detriment of the people.
Fuck this commie. He lived and thrived in a free capitalist society all while condemning it. He has distorted history to fit his world view and now his propaganda is required reading for college students. Rot in Hell
Correct-ish. Currently we are not an absolute free market society. But we have primarily operated on the principals of the free market to get us to the successful nation that we have become. During the last 150 years when Europe turned to more government control socialism, The US relied largely on a free market economy and thrived underneath it. To constitute the wealth of this nation to more government control is a falsehood. Zinn wants pure Communism.
@Yereviltwin2 You probably don't have 1% of Zinn's knowledge, why would he distort history, he just told what he saw and learned in his life. You sound like a 50's red neck.
If you have ever read his book "A peoples history" you would have read that every chapter is dripping with bias. He even states in his book that he is bias towards his view. Zinn is a communist or as he likes to put it a "Something of an anarchist, something of a socialist" Zinn pushes his one-sided view in his books, and to push only one side in a history book is being misleading. His writings are to persuade the reader in to advocacy for a leftist radical revolution
@Yereviltwin2 Nearly every historic book I ever read, is completely bias. The problem is that you wouldn't probably notice it, as the bias became oficially accepted truth.Most of American "historical" books have tragically one sided view on Middle East, Eastern Block, Cuba, Amercian actions in coutries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, cooperation with Isreal etc etc etc ( History depends on who writes it)
So you are going to excuse Zinns purposeful distortion of history to push his ideology and bias because it has happed in the past by other history writers? That’s kind of lame.
@Yereviltwin2 No - please read what I wrote. I'm questioning your benchmarks.
If american mainstream version of history is your benchmark, then of course, everything contradicting this version will be distorted, but distorted in relation to the official american popular view on history, thus biased. It's pretty naive to believe in "what they say is true, because they say so". Looking at the lies of ie. Bush administration, black flag operations etc, one has to wonder if it's 84 already
@Yereviltwin2 but it is the world of Orwell's 1984 in many disturbing ways. What did the people in 1984 do? They stared mindlessly at huge screens. What do Americans do? They stare mindlessly at large screens.
In 1984, yesterday's friend is today's enemy. In the USA, we funded and supported Saddam 25 years ago, then he was our worst enemy. We supported and funded the Taliban 25 years ago. Now they are our worst enemy.
@Yereviltwin2 LOL. How ironic- your post is misleading because you mischaracterize Zinn's bias. Zinn says WHY he wrote a left-leaning history book- because approx 99% of the k-12 history books are overwhelmingly pro-status quo, and essentially function as corporate propaganda.
He wrote the book to provide much needed BALANCE to the debate on US history. It is a breath of fresh air, especially concerning the labor struggle- something kept from most Americans to avoid class tensions
Sorry but you don't fight falsely perceived right bias with radical left bias. You fight bias with truth, fair representation, and accurate historical context. Zinn was a communist and an anarchist that wanted a radical uprising of the people to overthrow the govt to replace it with communism. His books weren’t counter points, or a boarding of existing history, they were radical propaganda that motivated action for a radical left wing ideology
@Yereviltwin2 one man's bias is another man's truth. I agree with Zinn's own explanation as to why he wrote a labor/minority dominated version of US history- but I only believe it because i EXPERIENCED the bullshit that is a k-12 education for MOST American citizens.
Zinn's book is very important, and I am THRILLED that it is being used in high schools across the country today to balance the corporate bullshit we all get brainwashed with.
No, bias is bias. Zinn Leaves outs important contexts and details to push his view. That isn’t “another mans truth.” If you’re a judge at a murder trial and the only info that is given to you is that a man shot his wife in the face, you would convict him of cold blooded murder. But the truth of the situation was that the woman had already shot 2 kids, was threatening to kill the 3rd. The man had to prevent the murder of the 3rd kid. The truth and facts change the whole situation
@yorick Can you offer any specific charges of intellectual dishonesty? There are so many examples of people being dicked over in the US, both individually and systematically, I don't see why he would have to resort to lying to convey his message.
Your premise is laughable and in no way germane to our discussion. Got specifics dude?
One of Zinns premises is that the elite 1% come together to contrive a way to keep down and pit the 99% against each other. He believes this has been going on since the founding of this country. Come on now, the top 1% are constantly maliciously conspiring to keep me down and fighting with my fellow citizen for their selfish gain? He likes when people come together but only for a leftist purpose and he emphasizes this in his “history” book
@Yereviltwin2 that could be the single worst "specific" claim ever made. care to try again? Also, what evidence do you have to suggest his theory about class war is incorrect?
Specifics.
Perhaps I should explain what that is- the best specific you could possibly offer would be zinn's own text.
Let's try again.
You can do better than that.
Or maybe you can't; and you just blindly hate leftists with no rational basis.
Wouldn't be the first thyme I've seen that complex in action.
@Yereviltwin2 can you prove that Zinn is wrong about the history of class warfare in the USA? What EVIDENCE do you have to suggest he is wrong, either intentionally, or by mistake?
You should take a debating class. Also, you should take some history and philosophy classes. If you have any interest in ever being able to debate well, they will help you significantly.
Im shocked that you would rather have 2 bias sources from both ends of the spectrum teaching children then a one honest history. That like having Hannity and Madow give us all of our news. You can write a history book about labor unions and why they where formed but be honest about it, but to leave out the economic impact of labor unions and only paint labor unions as sold flawless brick in a utopian society is being bias and misleading the reader.
@Yereviltwin2 name one honest history book and I'll buy you a candy bar ;) seriously- every book is biased. What students need is access to ALL opinions; ALL of them. So yes, they should listen to idiots like Hannity and scholars like Zinn.
Here is what John Stuart Mill had to say about it:
"The only way in which a human being can make some approach to knowing the whole of a subject is by hearing what can be said about it by persons of every variety of opinion." On Liberty, p.80.
Sure, to an extent and to the extent that Zinns books are bias, his books are off the chart. You like Zinns radial left wing ideology and you like his red meat approach to history, but as in intelligent person you need to see Zinns work for what it is. He’s a communist that is pushing for a radical left take over of America. Zinn offers no context to the events he highlights, and he only highlights what is convenient to his leftist point. That is not a history book
@Yereviltwin2 I'm done listening to you generalize. It's also funny that you think his ideology, which is NOT communist, is radical. I happen to think tax cuts for billionaires at a time of record deficits is RADICAL (besides idiotic).
@tristram “Its funny that you think his ideology is radical”
He talks about radical change several dozen times in his books. Read the book “Howard Zinn: A Radical American Vision”
Zinn “I was a radical, believing that something was wrong with this country” “The birth of [Zinn] a Marxist, socialist, anarchist, radical, liberal, anticapitalist, and democratic socialist”
Before we go further, have you read any of his books?
Where in the political spectrum do you think Zinn falls into?
“What SPECIFIC KIND of radical change does he talk about?”
You said you read his book. He talks about the triumphs of radical change all throughout it. Specifically he glorifies the life and works of Castro and Che. Zinn “I woke up realizing that things my radical friends had been saying to me were really true.” Zinn clearly wants America to be under a socialist or communist rule and he advocates a peoples rebellion to get there. That is radical change. (Cont)
(Cont) Zinn “If there is going to be change, radical change,” he said, “it will have to work its way from the bottom up, from the people themselves. That’s how change happens.” Do you understand advocating the overthrowing the government through violent means if necessary is radical? Zinn “I am not an absolute pacifist, because I can't rule out the possibility that under some, carefully defined circumstances, some degree of violence may be justified”
(Cont) In Peoples history Zinn mentions King contributions to the civil rights movement, but he really save praise and admiration for Malcolm X and the black Panthers because the tactics they where using where much more in line with get America to radicalize. What is the purpose of the radicalization? So that America would become a communist state. That is SPECIFICLY radical.
@Yereviltwin2 yawn- more hyperbolic, baseless speculation and bullshit. You should actually read his great history book "A People's History of the United States, 1492-Present" some time- you will learn a LOT of facts they left out in your k-12 experience.
Again and again you call him radical- but you fail to say what SPECIFIC radical claims he makes.
I have a VERY different idea of what represents radicalism today- I consider Empire and oligarchy RADICAL departures from our founder's intent.
You personally don't think Zinns philosophy is radical because radical is normal for you, but for everyone else his views are radical. Zinn at least had enough common sense to recognize his views were radical unlike you. I have sited and quoted many examples of Zinns own acknowledgement of his radicalism. You are being willfully ignorant if you won't acknowledge it too. You can be a radical but have the intelligence to acknowledge it.
Changing our government from a capitalist one to a communist state is radical. You may not personally think that is radical but everyone else thinks that a dramatic change in government like that is radical, even Zinn.
Educated me? Really? The only thing worth remembering is what you quoted from John Mill. The rest is just frustration and name calling. The only thing you have reinforced is that libs are really socialists but hate to admit it in the face of overwhelming certainty. Zinn is a radical and you couldnt even muster enough humility up to acknowledge that fact. Zinn tells a one sided history to support his radical view and push his agenda which is an uprising of the people to overthrow our govt
@Yereviltwin2 I certainly wasn't successful, but yes, I did attempt to get you to see how intellectually dishonest and generalized your positions were. I kept trying to get you to SUBSTANTIATE them, and you kept being unable to.
You use the word radical too freely and our of context. How, EXACTLY, is Zinn radical? Which of his positions are radical? You can't just use that word over and over and expect me to take you seriously- I don't.
If you have a political agenda that you push when writing a history book then it’s not an accurate history book and its not fit for schools and universities.
My agenda is fairness, context, and truth in history. America’s history is a great one that has given the most amount of people the greatest opportunity. There has been greatness and sadness in our history and both need to be told honestly. Our history should bring us together and make our country strong, not divide us. Zinns account of history is inaccurate and undermines the context of many of his sited events. He’s purposely leaves out info
@USTreasuryBond You are completely wrong in your assessment. What do you think created the largest middle class in US history post-Word War II? The progressive tax. The wealthiest paid a high tax rate, that left them still able to live quite comfortably. The middle and lower class payed taxes as well, but no to such a point that they would starve. So if you hate taxes so much, don't drive on roads, or go to the library, or national parks, or any other thing that is supported by taxes.
PrinceMyshkin22 1 month ago
Zinn is absolutely spot on!
philipheubeck 1 month ago
Zinn is such an amazing person.
bradleyt1 3 months ago
watch?v=og-kBmXnmas Howard jokes about teaching
DaSungandSoul1223 3 months ago
The problem is that you WON"T have enough money. Sounds good in theory Howard, and we've heard it over and over again for decades, but tax hikes do NOT increase tax revenues. You used capitalism to get rich off your best selling book, how much in taxes did you pay? Did you give more?
USTreasuryBond 3 months ago
Great book and collaborator with Noam Chomsky
squeezeflo 5 months ago
well i remember the first days of this talk, he will raise the taxes of rich..wow...it became a big deal...people were afraid thinking super rich will be destroyed by another slice of pizza giving to poor..i dont understand people...rich gets more in this country, endless credits, and poor doesnt even have a health care..
alinn71 7 months ago
@alinn71 thats why it is why the economic values or plutonism is crushing now..lol...i dont think so..everything is planned ..unfortunately the middle class destruction continues no matter what..we pay high taxes on our pay check, and house taxing..and i think it is not fair for the super rich paying almost same percentage as me...
alinn71 7 months ago
WE cannot change a damn thing working within the same systems that have caused the worlds problems. we need to quit playing their game while simultaneoulsy developing new systems. new systems with reagrd ..hi regard ..the highest regard to our oNLY commonality...nature nad its laws.
TheBerserker50 7 months ago
Thank you Howard! You read my mind at 7:00:
"We need people... who are doing very well to form an alliance with people at the bottom in order to bring about change."
I really think this common ground is the key. However the media has filtered our reality so that the poor see the wealthy as greedy crooks, and the wealthy see the poor as a lazy burden on society. I hope we can get past this accepted form of discrimination. We're all Americans. It's time to act like it.
YoeyYutch 7 months ago
Resource based economy....and soon. Or humanity will fail and we will not make it in our transition from a type 0 to a type 1 civilization.
XSilvenX 7 months ago
please, correct me if i'm wrong. these two jews discussing the Bolshewik revolution and class struggle? as they did in the Soviet Union, which resulted in the death of 100 million people? no workers or proletarians ever got to a paradise over there. Only the kommissars, the KGB, the Anarchist committee of Moscow, the Party members had a decent life. the rest had to work, work, work, and show up at aParade, cheering their leaders.
shetlandwool 8 months ago
@babayabadabadu
Does that statement reveal your level of intellectualism? LOL
jolow2 8 months ago
Good 'ol class warfare...
FatTony726 8 months ago
This man is arrogant
kommon12Cents 9 months ago
@kommon12Cents
Not only is Zinn arrogant but shallow. He is not a deep thinker.
jolow2 9 months ago
@kommon12Cents Howard Zinn is arrogant? Easy to say....I guess...if you don't make any effort to explain your opinion.
You're arrogant. Your mother is arrogant. Your shoes are arrogant.
linuxluver 8 months ago
@MrAlienlovechild The same entity(The State) that steals(taxation) money is the entity coercively destroying the dollar they force on society. Everything should be voluntary with a voluntary medium of exchange, the exact opposite of criminal socialism.
Everything should be voluntary, period; anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 9 months ago
Zinn was a decent man, spoke the truth. Truth is out of fashion in Amerikkka, sadly, and has been for at least 30 years.
MiserableOldFart 10 months ago
@ranthony1903 My dear sir, I most appreciate the silly and pompous tone which you bring to this conversation. It doth tickle my sense of the humorous! Some people grew the food which I have eaten today, and I bought it with money I earned filing paperwork. I'll leave it to you to figure out whose service is more essential.
ahumancertainty 10 months ago
@brandensc If i was religious, i'd say he's in a better place. Since i'm not religious, i'll just say he's found peace now :). He fought to inform people his whole life, so he very well deserves his rest!
freedomthrough 10 months ago 9
Taxation is theft. Class warfare against division of labor diversity is just a criminal tactic to attempt to legitimize criminal mob coercion.
qwertypoiu4321 11 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 You're hilarious. Taxes are the reason there's a basic, undying, demand for the currency in which they are paid :P.
freedomthrough 10 months ago
@freedomthrough Money is a medium of exchange that naturally occurs when society wants to exit a barbaric barter system. Taxation is theft, and people that initiate taxation theft should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 10 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 As a matter of fact, physical money is a commodity and thus, any trade where it takes part is barter. Taxation is a way to balance the money supply, nothing else. I wish you a happy life in a tax-free society :D.
freedomthrough 10 months ago
@freedomthrough Money is a medium of exchange. Taxation is robbery, all goods and services should be part of the voluntary sector, not the criminal coercive sector. Anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 10 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 And thus, it works as a commodity :D. Okay, get rid of taxation and watch inflation rise to the skies. The government "gave" you the money in the first place, by putting it in circulation when spending/lending. Taxation is a way to regulate purchasing power, nothing more. If you abolish taxes, you might as well abolish fiat currency at the same time.
freedomthrough 10 months ago
@freedomthrough The same entity(The State) that steals(taxation) money is the entity coercively destroying the dollar they force on society. Everything should be voluntary with a voluntary medium of exchange, the exact opposite of criminal socialism.
Everything should be voluntary, period; anyone that violates the Non-Coercion Principle should be charged as such.
qwertypoiu4321 9 months ago
@qwertypoiu4321 Charged by whom? And how do you punish them without coercion? Goddamn anarchist :P
freedomthrough 9 months ago
@freedomthrough Voluntary Sector Arbitration, and self-defense to legitimate violence, not illegitimate coercion. Anarchists are not Voluntarists, they are just another group of criminals that have given themselves a different label.
qwertypoiu4321 9 months ago
An economic illiterate who professes FORCED re-distribution of wealth
tjohn1986 11 months ago
I don't understand the message. Does the bill scott walker is pushing eliminate unions?: I thought it just makes it so workers don't have to join. WE NEED FREEDOM OF CHOICE NOT FORCED UNION DUES
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day It takes away the right for the public unions to collectively bargain. I like how Jon Stewart put it "Unions without collective bargaining is just a bunch of people wearing the same shirt". It basically takes what teeth these unions have and rips them out, leaving them basically obsolete. The only tools a union would have left is strike action.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@Mabuza14 anyone can strike. I don't like the idea of a mob forcing a business to raise their pay or anything. if they're all in such bad conditions how come they can't just talk to each other and if people don't like it they can quit. FInd another job.
boycott if its some company. if its teachers, the community needs to decide how much to pay them
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day That's why I said it's their last weapon, anybody can do it. Define mob, an organized mass of workers united in their cause does not sound like a "mob". Collective bargaining is "just talking to each other" which is what they're getting rid of. They're getting rid of their right to come to the table and even have a civilized conversation. And it's easier to say find another job if you don't like your current one because of your boss.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@Mabuza14 some kind of additional right not normally there is how i was seeing a mob. like if america were a democracy say in 1845 and 51% voted to keep slavery legal. or give any other example where the majority is using their power to take something away from a minority.
if we had true free market capitalism and with the ability to tax imports we'd have more jobs here, and still be propsering like we did in many past decades. Then if a company is immoral you quit, you tell others, boycott
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day So how are the workers like a mob? If I'm not mistaken capitalism(in theory) rests on the fact that exchanges are willful. If workers want to organize and bargain for a wage, for benefits,etc, it's their right correct? And if management does not want to give in to what the workers want then the workers can withhold their labor and go on strike. What's like a mob in this situation?
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day If we had "true" free market capitalism the working people in this country would be screwed just like they were when we did have free market capitalism. It might have been glorious for some people, but for the majority of workers it was not at all. And what happens when you quit your job?You seem to think that's such a light thing to do,maybe you don't have a family,bills,and other expenses to pay for.You might understand if you did, if you do I don't understand your mentalty.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@Mabuza14 make your own business, do what you like. free market, less regulations.
should have saved money instead of buying material goods.
it wasn't good in the 50s or 60s for the workers? growing middle class?
there's always a lower class theres always people dumber than other people that are not going to do very well but they can still survive, we're not starving like africans or egyptians were that caused them to start a revolution.
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day Again take a little closer look at reality, everybody can't just start their own business. This is always the advice given but it's absolutely impossible for the vast majority of people, because the system is set up so that the vast majority of us HAVE to be working class. It doesn't matter whether you go around buying material goods or not.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day Miners in the 70's were still having to struggle for wages that didn't lock them into poverty, they were still getting shot and killed by hired thugs by the company when they striked, etc. I'm not going around buying "material goods" what I and my family buy are necessities and a little something like internet and cable, that's about it. No PS3 or anything like that for me I'm not awash in wealth and "material goods".
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day We didn't have a freer market back in those days anyways, when I'm talking about free market capitalism in our country, we're talking about 1800's-mid 1900's.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@Mabuza14 well yea 1950s
like this video says in the first 20 seconds
watch?v=YQscE3Xed64
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day That doesn't show free market capitalism in the 1950's. Then we had a minimum wage, welfare, Social Security, etc, etc, with a ton of regulations. Nothing like we had in the 1800's and mid 1900's.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
@Mabuza14 well there's too many regulations now
nottinmatterz2day 11 months ago
@nottinmatterz2day Think about it, you have a job, if you quit you wouldn't. How would you pay your bills, feed your family, and then you might not find work. And if you do find work there is no chance that you're going to like those conditions either. You see you've got to realize the fact that all these arguments are bunk when applied to the real world when the workers' option is between different bosses he/she won't like. Study our labor history, see how it really happened.
Mabuza14 11 months ago
Class war is as timeless as sex
LV07TSK 11 months ago
Taxes and class war? You mean we either must exploit people by having wage slaves, or by taxing people? Maybe property and taxes are just two different aspects of Babylon.
JasonDamisch 1 year ago
does anyone know what he's talking about at 3:27? if the super rich are somehow making money off the current tax structure i would like to know how.
jaybeebles 1 year ago
I hear you. Zinn Misspeaks here. I don't believe he is trying to deceive or mislead but tries to articulate his position that the tax burden in the US is not carried by the wealthy.
The wealthy don't make money off taxes in the sense that taxes are a market, service or commodity. I believe he was trying to express that the rich have rigged the system to avoid having to paying their fair share of taxes. I happen to agree with him.
tjmurphyboomcatdaddy 11 months ago
This man is for class war. My experience is that those who are for class war, and on the political left, want class war against the middle class. They seek this as a way to break down society so that they can reform it into a form which they deem as desirable. My question is, and shall always be a question to the civilized, is, 'how can you improve on nature'? Men are not gods. Notice that he calls himself an anarchist, yet says that there must be taxes. A flat tax would be fair.
JasonDamisch 1 year ago
@JasonDamisch You misunderstand some key concepts here. First of all, one cannot be for or against class struggle. It is already upon us and it's as old as civilized society. Class struggle is an inevitable fact of life particularly in a capitalist environment. In fact, most of the rights and freedoms you enjoy today, as an American citizen, are direct results of class conflicts in the past. [...]
Snowdrift42 1 year ago 2
@JasonDamisch (contd.) If anyone wants a "war against the middle class", it's certainly not the political left. It was actually republican governments, particularly the Bush family, who can take credit for destroying the middle class and increasing government spending to astronomic levels. Under Clinton, America was seeing a budget surplus of over 200 billion $ every year.
Snowdrift42 1 year ago
Zinn is one of the greatest minds of our time....science needs to be applied to the way we handle resources and how we govern ourselves.....racism, classism, war, capitalism are all obsolete....its your choice if you want to buy overpriced gas and give the government more money to build bigger tanks and nicer guns all your life while the rest of us move on
johnniefive80 1 year ago 2
@lictor313 why would the super rich, enjoying all thier luxeries, ever care what race YOU are or what YOU think?
johnniefive80 1 year ago
@lictor313 zinn is hardly anymore racist or anti-anything than the super rich...do you actually believe the super rich cares if you are white, patriotic or ignorant of history? why would
johnniefive80 1 year ago 2
He shades the truth. Andrew Mellon did lower tax rates,they became MORE progressive. The total tax take for the top incomes trippled, while the bottom rates were reduced. See Wikipedia
So, the issue is the size of government, how much of an individuals life and labor should the elites and government own? Today, tax progressivity is at almost a 100 year high. Zinn wants to tax the higher incomes because, A - that's where the money is and B - they don't have the votes to stop it.
doncourson 1 year ago
the children of the enlightenment need to come out the real adam smithonian conservative free market advocates and the classical liberals who both argued for equality but believed in different theories that would bring equality. iam a libertarian socialist but i believe that libertarian free market advocators (the real ones) are my natural allies its just i dnt agree with their perspective on how to achieve equality and freedom from outside orders, but both of us have no voice in da public arena
timetochilli 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES
CoolerKing37 1 year ago
a crazed hate filled anti-western anti-white racist... would be commissar of the politburo...
Zinn's cant is pure drivel and nonsense.
lictor313 1 year ago
@lictor313 Your a total idiot.
I think the only crazed person here is you.
JackB733 1 year ago
@JackB733 this from a proto-communist lemming...
go back to reading marcuse along with you drug addled shitbag buddies. Keep supporting an ideology that only wants your enslavemtn and complete subjugation.
Your kind is the very definition of what Aristotle called the "Born Slave"... a creature who wants and therefore DESERVES a master...
lictor313 1 year ago
@lictor313 Hahahahahahaha
Just keep on ranting, I'm loving it.
Ahhh, crazy people can be so much fun sometimes.
JackB733 1 year ago 2
@JackB733 and I love the fact that communist throwbacks are always so predictable... fleeing debate and rational cognition!
It reminds us of the type of failures we're dealing with! ahhh! red idiots can be so entertaining!
lictor313 1 year ago
Government can do nothing efficient save harm people. Taxation is merely a form of indirect slavery that is imposed upon us by our masters to keep us under control.
The only way to a truly free society is Anarcho-Capitalism
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev That's an oxymoron. If taxes are indirect slavery, then wage slavery is even worse. (Though I think slavery is too strong a word for this context).
ahumancertainty 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty if anything is an oxymoron it is "wage slavery," and no the word slavery is not too strong a word for this context. Money is the physical manifestation of your mind, your ability, and most importantly your TIME. When the government takes money out of your pay check it is invariably taking away your time to be forcibly used upon other affairs, i.e. public works. thus, taxation is the slyest form of slavery ever devised and somehow we have all been willing to accept it as
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev Or rather a gross exaggeration of the word slavery which undermines the suffering of people who actually were slaves. Using money to represent our labor is a useless abstraction which sets the stage for exploitation. Capitalism is a lazy excuse for avoiding the effort of organizing a truly functional society.
ahumancertainty 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty how else do you wish to represent our labor? there are few other ways, that i can think of, to tabulate the total amount of blood, sweat, tears, and thoughts that go into that which we produce. perhaps you could enlighten me?
as for capitalism being "a lazy excuse for avoiding the effort of organizing a truly functional society," what would you say is a "truly functional society?"
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev The problem is this need for tabulation. We only need to keep exact track of our labor because we are trying to defend ourselves from each other. We are working for our own personal survival against the will of the system, rather than working for an outright common good. Working class people work just as hard as middle and upper class people if not harder. That is a sign of a nonfunctional society and the major thing we need to address.
ahumancertainty 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty if there is no need for tabulation, no need to take all that you have done into account, then what is the point of working at all? But you still do not answer my question. if money is not a satisfactory method of judging ability, then what is? And yes, you are right, "working class" people do work just as hard as "middle" and "upper class" do, but the question is, what kind of work is being done? are the "proletariat" innovating new ideas or just following the template they were
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty given over and over again? Yes, the "workers" do the grunt work for little pay, and it may seem unfair, but the "bourgeois" make more by virtue that they invest more of their mental powers into their work, improving and innovating. True some were born into this "bourgeois" class, but unless they are just as innovating as their forefathers they will not remain there for long, same goes for the "proletariat" but in opposite.
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev How about the quality of the work I produce? That should be a good indicator of how hard I work. Many upper class people don't innovate at all to stay on top. Most people work service jobs in the U.S. and the people that do own businesses don't necessarily need to innovate to survive. The work that unskilled laborers do (like grow food) is far more important than most business owners who only exist due to capitalism as middle men.
ahumancertainty 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty and in what objective way shall we assess the quality of the work that you do?
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev Not necessary unless we are conditioned to think only within the framework of capitalism. I don't see why we would need to determine a measure for our labor other than the actual useful product we derive from it.
ahumancertainty 1 year ago 18
@ahumancertainty and how would you determine the usefulness of something?
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev How about we measure our labor by the amount of widgets we produce per hour. I don't know. This is a pointless question. What does it matter? Either people want things and they do what is necessary to have them or they don't.
ahumancertainty 1 year ago
@ahumancertainty necessary and indeed vital despite its inherent immorality.
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@Consrvatev
Too bad anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-syndicalism aren't going to exist in this overpopulated, statist, corporatist word.
Simplistic statist liberals like Naomi Klein are too simple; but they may be right for that reason. Everything else is just useless incite
SUpersaiyajinjerkbag 1 year ago
@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag to follow the herd by sheer virtue that there are more members in the herd does not make for good logic. One should never just give up and admit fault simply because more people disagree with you than agree with you
Consrvatev 1 year ago
@MrAlienlovechild Yea, God forbid we blaspheme against the great saint, Howard Zinn. Instead of discussing issues, we should just silence all the dissenters of the left.
Zinn is a liar and a fraud. In the first minute he lies saying that Education and the Media try to prevent people from realizing that taxes are relative to class (or income). Teachers, pols, and Newspeople almost always talk about making the rich pay more because "they can afford it." That and he didn't even answer the q.
theCrimosnBeard 1 year ago
@theCrimosnBeard A very small minority of newspeople say that. And I don't know what you mean, my economics teacher was a capitalist, he said so himself when I claimed socialism was better.
Winterwolf00 1 year ago
@Winterwolf00 People in the media might not explicitly say "eat the rich," but just the language that is used shows their beliefs, such as when they act as if the Bush tax cuts lower tax rates for the rich below some undefined minimum that they owe to the government, or deliberately ignore the higher burden they shoulder.
And of course an economics teacher is going to favor capitalism, but instructors in the majority of the other fields (especially fluff classes) don't.
theCrimosnBeard 1 year ago
@theCrimosnBeard I think you're confused. When I went to school we were taught that capitalism is the greatest system ever and we owe our standard of living to it. For my entire life I've heard nothing but how important it is to keep taxes low on the wealthy. The media in the US is almost entirely pro big business. Issues that affect the working class are mostly ignored. What we really have in the US is big government socialism for the rich and dog eat dog capitalism for workers.
reefsofspace 1 year ago
@reefsofspace When did you go to school? the 1950's? Nowadays teachers are giving credit for students attending leftist rallies. I had a teacher that called Reagan "the economic anti-christ." And even Ben Stein has gone on television to say the Rich don't pay enough taxes.
I will agree, though, that we have socialism for big business (aka: light fascism).
theCrimosnBeard 1 year ago
If the policies and ideas set forth in this interview were to ever take place (more so than they already are) you can say hello to the world Ayn Rand created in Atlas Shrugged. Have you ever heard of a poor person creating thousands of jobs and creating wealth that a whole society prospers from, all originating from his or her own selfish drive to create wealth? No. I love how the opening credits say Zinn is anti-war but dose not have a problem with inciting a class war.
samoht1ry5 1 year ago
@samoht1ry5 CLASS WAR IS 7.25 AN HOUR AND FIVE DOLLARS A GALLON OF MILK!!! we have children minimum wage for forty hours labour
fuck anybody who does not have sympathy for the poor!!!!!
kingjoe420 1 year ago
@samoht1ry5 CLASS WAR IS 7.25 AN HOUR AND FIVE DOLLARS A GALLON OF MILK!!! we have children minimum wage for forty hours labour
fuck anybody who does not have sympathy for the workingclass!!!!!
kingjoe420 1 year ago
@samoht1ry5 You do know that Ayn Rand had no understanding of the history of wealth in America, right? You do know that she had almost no understanding of economics, right? Ayn Rand wrote a fantasy novel. A silly story about hard driving capitalists who create rail roads from the sweat of their brow. Want to know how Taggart Transcontinental really started? Government subsidies, government land grants, and lots of people working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. You guys go Galt, we don't need you.
reefsofspace 1 year ago
Under a fiat monetary system (which is what the United States has), taxes do not fund anything - they are simply the means by which dollars are given value. That is, they create a demand for the fiat monetary system. Any funding is accomplished through money creation
laskji 1 year ago
half of the people in the country doesnt pay taxes since they dont make enough.
hint0122 1 year ago
@hint0122 That is only true of federal income tax. The poor pay a disproportionate amount of their income in state income tax, property tax (which is included in their rent by the landlord), food tax, and sales tax.
DoctorMandible 1 year ago
everyone dies sooner or later.
hint0122 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I'm glad Howard Zinn is dead. I only wish someone had beaten him to death. May Amy Goodman quickly follow in his path.
Gulfporter 1 year ago
Comment removed
adamploessl 1 year ago
@adamploessl
Undoubtedly. Which doesn't alter the fact that Howard Zinn and Amy Goodman were/are both pieces of shit who made/make their living selling anti-americanism to moronic Berkeley types and other adolescents who imagine themselves to be highly intelligent and revolutionary when all they really are is a counter culture cartoon. The only real problem with that is that they tend to be Education majors and then go on to rot the brains of children. Thanks for sharing.
Gulfporter 1 year ago
Interesting how the super-rich bleat about people on welfare. Like we can afford to support them, the top 15 per cent, with excessive incomes and luxury way above and beyond their needs or usefulness, we can bail bankers out, but we can't afford to keep the bottom 15 percent in poverty, on a mere subsistence. So far, they have fooled the self-employed and better paid workers into thinking the same way, but it's an unsustainable facade of common interest as capitalism heads into another slump.
freddo27 1 year ago
When I hear this I am reminded that the truth hurts.
amesboie 1 year ago
Class will be the last thing mentioned in most debates over discrimination. It's sad because that is the one common factor amongst every other group that could unite them all in the process of real change. Instead we fight about petty things like white/black, gay/straight, Jew/Muslim, Creation/Darwin. I know poor people of every color, gender, sexual preference, etc. Class is the scariest word a politician could hear in an open forum.
ThelemicLaboratory 1 year ago
class warfare as rich vs poor is so inadequate. taxes are enforced by the state. that's real class warfare. those with arbitrary authority vs those with none. true consent of the governed is the only way to abolish class warfare. that means no taxation without consent!
thisisbunk 1 year ago
Let's phrase what you believe differently:
You believe that a man has the right to rape someone's wife or girlfriend if he's unable to get a girlfriend?
I don't know what kind of fucked up greedy people you are but you have absolutely no right to violate anyone's rights because you want what they have PERIOD.
RevengeOfRedBaron 1 year ago
Do you really believe that you have a right to take things from other people?
RevengeOfRedBaron 1 year ago
@RevengeOfRedBaron The top 15 percent are taking what other people have produced each and every day. Or are you saying they work fantastically long shifts to "earn" millions each week? Yes, folks have become confortable through their own efforts and sweat, and nobody would deprive them of that. It's obscene and unnecessary wealth, a la Rupert Murdoch/Bailed out bankers still awarding themselves millions before they pay us, the taxpayers, back what we loaned them. They are no longer sustainable.
freddo27 1 year ago
The taxes from the top 10% make up over half of the US government's income. The bottom 50% don't pay taxes. I'm not saying that they're tax dodgers, they just don't have to pay taxes.
HALF OF THE PEOPLE IN THE US DON'T PAY TAXES. And it's not the wealthy, it's the poorer half of the population.
The lower classes don't even contribute anything and believe that they're entitled to the money that a taxpaying person earned?
RevengeOfRedBaron 1 year ago
A very powerful IRS/Taxes documentary... "FREEDOM TO FASCISM"
PeaceIsRad 1 year ago
RIP.
liosama 1 year ago
So let me get this right: If i work hard, go to college, write a best selling book or invent something new and become very rich as a result. Then I should be taxed to all hell for being successful?
examinfo 1 year ago
@examinfo first write a best selling book like Zinn's "A People's History Of The United States" then we will talk about your income tax
Deisinoful 1 year ago
Because you benefit from the society that enabled you to achieve your wealth, you can afford to give some back. If you want to live somewhere where it's strictly the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, etc then try moving to a 3rd world country that has no safety net at all, where you can lord it over the have-nots.
lordkoos 1 year ago
Because you benefit from the society that enabled you to achieve your wealth, you can afford to give some back. If you want to live somewhere where it's strictly the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, etc then try moving to a 3rd world country that has no safety net at all, where you can lord it over the have-nots. Generally, things go better when everyone does better, not just the rich.
lordkoos 1 year ago
yep because your idea of success is accumulating as much income as possible which is a ass-backwards belief. americans don't understand the term "standard of living" like other civilized countries do. they equate happiness with an accumulation of useless material bullshit and money they won't ever spend. Its a burden on the poor and the middle class. WAKE UP
johnowensjr1234 1 year ago
This is what happens when a historian, and I apply this term for Zinn loosely, makes grandiose claims on economics...
RavingDissension 1 year ago
Anarchism is the only way to have what we need.
DuffmanIRL 1 year ago
@DuffmanIRL Hm. I live in "La Ville Rouge," Saint-Denis, France. Communism and socialism were invented here. Interesting . . .
slobomotion 1 year ago
@slobomotion Right.
DuffmanIRL 1 year ago
@DuffmanIRL I have known some "anarchists" who were really cruddy peope -- absolute users. Grifters, really! But then I think back to my university studies, and what I have learned on my own . . . those who fear or reject the anarchists out of hand, they are brainwashed non-thinkers. I say, you go. I would be honored if you would check out cute cat faith dot come and subscribe to my two YouTube channels and on Dailymotion, too, where I am "LisaFalour." Honored.
slobomotion 1 year ago
Zinn is awsome but definitely not an economist.
examinfo 1 year ago
@examinfo And Zinn is definitely not a Historian either.
leeason1 1 year ago
In Latin America, the problem is that when the "people's ruler" gets into power, he turns into a rich corrupt guy just like the previous one. Obama got lots of money from the bankers. He will be no different. Zinn should have understood the message of human nature as portrayed by Orwell in Animal Farm.
efrem1 1 year ago
what a crock of shit. this guy has no fucking clue.
hairymulletjr 1 year ago
@hairymulletjr got specifics?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
There is nothing wrong with being a firefighter, teacher, police officer, librarian, Sanitation worker, or any other we the people worker. They're some people who would like to corporatize the flow of ,we the people's, work to the detriment of the people.
lostchasm942 1 year ago
What a great, great man he was. The world needs more like him.
HONDOMACLEAN83 1 year ago
Fuck this commie. He lived and thrived in a free capitalist society all while condemning it. He has distorted history to fit his world view and now his propaganda is required reading for college students. Rot in Hell
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 Uhm he's an American, America doesn't have a free market economy.
Fuctmentality 1 year ago
@Fuctmentality
Correct-ish. Currently we are not an absolute free market society. But we have primarily operated on the principals of the free market to get us to the successful nation that we have become. During the last 150 years when Europe turned to more government control socialism, The US relied largely on a free market economy and thrived underneath it. To constitute the wealth of this nation to more government control is a falsehood. Zinn wants pure Communism.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 You probably don't have 1% of Zinn's knowledge, why would he distort history, he just told what he saw and learned in his life. You sound like a 50's red neck.
514mtlll 1 year ago
@514mtlll
If you have ever read his book "A peoples history" you would have read that every chapter is dripping with bias. He even states in his book that he is bias towards his view. Zinn is a communist or as he likes to put it a "Something of an anarchist, something of a socialist" Zinn pushes his one-sided view in his books, and to push only one side in a history book is being misleading. His writings are to persuade the reader in to advocacy for a leftist radical revolution
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 Nearly every historic book I ever read, is completely bias. The problem is that you wouldn't probably notice it, as the bias became oficially accepted truth.Most of American "historical" books have tragically one sided view on Middle East, Eastern Block, Cuba, Amercian actions in coutries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, cooperation with Isreal etc etc etc ( History depends on who writes it)
JJTechnologies 1 year ago
@JJTechnologies
So you are going to excuse Zinns purposeful distortion of history to push his ideology and bias because it has happed in the past by other history writers? That’s kind of lame.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 No - please read what I wrote. I'm questioning your benchmarks.
If american mainstream version of history is your benchmark, then of course, everything contradicting this version will be distorted, but distorted in relation to the official american popular view on history, thus biased. It's pretty naive to believe in "what they say is true, because they say so". Looking at the lies of ie. Bush administration, black flag operations etc, one has to wonder if it's 84 already
JJTechnologies 1 year ago
@JJTechnologies
Yeah sure, it's the very oppressive world of 1984, now I'm positive what you believe is nonsense. Good bye
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 but it is the world of Orwell's 1984 in many disturbing ways. What did the people in 1984 do? They stared mindlessly at huge screens. What do Americans do? They stare mindlessly at large screens.
In 1984, yesterday's friend is today's enemy. In the USA, we funded and supported Saddam 25 years ago, then he was our worst enemy. We supported and funded the Taliban 25 years ago. Now they are our worst enemy.
Do you see the obvious and disturbing parallels?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 LOL. How ironic- your post is misleading because you mischaracterize Zinn's bias. Zinn says WHY he wrote a left-leaning history book- because approx 99% of the k-12 history books are overwhelmingly pro-status quo, and essentially function as corporate propaganda.
He wrote the book to provide much needed BALANCE to the debate on US history. It is a breath of fresh air, especially concerning the labor struggle- something kept from most Americans to avoid class tensions
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3
Sorry but you don't fight falsely perceived right bias with radical left bias. You fight bias with truth, fair representation, and accurate historical context. Zinn was a communist and an anarchist that wanted a radical uprising of the people to overthrow the govt to replace it with communism. His books weren’t counter points, or a boarding of existing history, they were radical propaganda that motivated action for a radical left wing ideology
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 one man's bias is another man's truth. I agree with Zinn's own explanation as to why he wrote a labor/minority dominated version of US history- but I only believe it because i EXPERIENCED the bullshit that is a k-12 education for MOST American citizens.
Zinn's book is very important, and I am THRILLED that it is being used in high schools across the country today to balance the corporate bullshit we all get brainwashed with.
With liberality comes wisdom- Thoreau
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
No, bias is bias. Zinn Leaves outs important contexts and details to push his view. That isn’t “another mans truth.” If you’re a judge at a murder trial and the only info that is given to you is that a man shot his wife in the face, you would convict him of cold blooded murder. But the truth of the situation was that the woman had already shot 2 kids, was threatening to kill the 3rd. The man had to prevent the murder of the 3rd kid. The truth and facts change the whole situation
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@yorick Can you offer any specific charges of intellectual dishonesty? There are so many examples of people being dicked over in the US, both individually and systematically, I don't see why he would have to resort to lying to convey his message.
Your premise is laughable and in no way germane to our discussion. Got specifics dude?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy “Got specifics dude?”
One of Zinns premises is that the elite 1% come together to contrive a way to keep down and pit the 99% against each other. He believes this has been going on since the founding of this country. Come on now, the top 1% are constantly maliciously conspiring to keep me down and fighting with my fellow citizen for their selfish gain? He likes when people come together but only for a leftist purpose and he emphasizes this in his “history” book
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 that could be the single worst "specific" claim ever made. care to try again? Also, what evidence do you have to suggest his theory about class war is incorrect?
Specifics.
Perhaps I should explain what that is- the best specific you could possibly offer would be zinn's own text.
Let's try again.
You can do better than that.
Or maybe you can't; and you just blindly hate leftists with no rational basis.
Wouldn't be the first thyme I've seen that complex in action.
Adios amigo
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 can you prove that Zinn is wrong about the history of class warfare in the USA? What EVIDENCE do you have to suggest he is wrong, either intentionally, or by mistake?
You should take a debating class. Also, you should take some history and philosophy classes. If you have any interest in ever being able to debate well, they will help you significantly.
Adios amigo.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
Im shocked that you would rather have 2 bias sources from both ends of the spectrum teaching children then a one honest history. That like having Hannity and Madow give us all of our news. You can write a history book about labor unions and why they where formed but be honest about it, but to leave out the economic impact of labor unions and only paint labor unions as sold flawless brick in a utopian society is being bias and misleading the reader.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 name one honest history book and I'll buy you a candy bar ;) seriously- every book is biased. What students need is access to ALL opinions; ALL of them. So yes, they should listen to idiots like Hannity and scholars like Zinn.
Here is what John Stuart Mill had to say about it:
"The only way in which a human being can make some approach to knowing the whole of a subject is by hearing what can be said about it by persons of every variety of opinion." On Liberty, p.80.
adios amigo
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
“every book is biased”
Sure, to an extent and to the extent that Zinns books are bias, his books are off the chart. You like Zinns radial left wing ideology and you like his red meat approach to history, but as in intelligent person you need to see Zinns work for what it is. He’s a communist that is pushing for a radical left take over of America. Zinn offers no context to the events he highlights, and he only highlights what is convenient to his leftist point. That is not a history book
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 I'm done listening to you generalize. It's also funny that you think his ideology, which is NOT communist, is radical. I happen to think tax cuts for billionaires at a time of record deficits is RADICAL (besides idiotic).
Have a nice day.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristram “Its funny that you think his ideology is radical”
He talks about radical change several dozen times in his books. Read the book “Howard Zinn: A Radical American Vision”
Zinn “I was a radical, believing that something was wrong with this country” “The birth of [Zinn] a Marxist, socialist, anarchist, radical, liberal, anticapitalist, and democratic socialist”
Before we go further, have you read any of his books?
Where in the political spectrum do you think Zinn falls into?
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 yeah? what SPECIFIC KIND of radical change does he talk about?
Are you ALLERGIC to specifics?
Who the FUCK taught you how to debate?
Sorry, you are frustrating me with your inability to debate in a cogent, intelligent manner.
Give me specifics, or shut the fuck up about Zinn.
Thanks.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
“What SPECIFIC KIND of radical change does he talk about?”
You said you read his book. He talks about the triumphs of radical change all throughout it. Specifically he glorifies the life and works of Castro and Che. Zinn “I woke up realizing that things my radical friends had been saying to me were really true.” Zinn clearly wants America to be under a socialist or communist rule and he advocates a peoples rebellion to get there. That is radical change. (Cont)
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
(Cont) Zinn “If there is going to be change, radical change,” he said, “it will have to work its way from the bottom up, from the people themselves. That’s how change happens.” Do you understand advocating the overthrowing the government through violent means if necessary is radical? Zinn “I am not an absolute pacifist, because I can't rule out the possibility that under some, carefully defined circumstances, some degree of violence may be justified”
Is that SPECIFIC enough?
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 no, no it's not.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
(Cont) In Peoples history Zinn mentions King contributions to the civil rights movement, but he really save praise and admiration for Malcolm X and the black Panthers because the tactics they where using where much more in line with get America to radicalize. What is the purpose of the radicalization? So that America would become a communist state. That is SPECIFICLY radical.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 yawn- more hyperbolic, baseless speculation and bullshit. You should actually read his great history book "A People's History of the United States, 1492-Present" some time- you will learn a LOT of facts they left out in your k-12 experience.
Again and again you call him radical- but you fail to say what SPECIFIC radical claims he makes.
I have a VERY different idea of what represents radicalism today- I consider Empire and oligarchy RADICAL departures from our founder's intent.
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy
You personally don't think Zinns philosophy is radical because radical is normal for you, but for everyone else his views are radical. Zinn at least had enough common sense to recognize his views were radical unlike you. I have sited and quoted many examples of Zinns own acknowledgement of his radicalism. You are being willfully ignorant if you won't acknowledge it too. You can be a radical but have the intelligence to acknowledge it.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3
Changing our government from a capitalist one to a communist state is radical. You may not personally think that is radical but everyone else thinks that a dramatic change in government like that is radical, even Zinn.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwinyawn. the 1950's called- they want their fear mongering rhetoric back. :)
take care- you silly, brainwashed American boy
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3
I guess by you tripe and witless bumper sticker response that I made a valid point. You are welcome
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2- I tried to educate you- but it's impossible. We are all commies- congratulations for figuring that out! LOL!
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@trist
Educated me? Really? The only thing worth remembering is what you quoted from John Mill. The rest is just frustration and name calling. The only thing you have reinforced is that libs are really socialists but hate to admit it in the face of overwhelming certainty. Zinn is a radical and you couldnt even muster enough humility up to acknowledge that fact. Zinn tells a one sided history to support his radical view and push his agenda which is an uprising of the people to overthrow our govt
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 I certainly wasn't successful, but yes, I did attempt to get you to see how intellectually dishonest and generalized your positions were. I kept trying to get you to SUBSTANTIATE them, and you kept being unable to.
You use the word radical too freely and our of context. How, EXACTLY, is Zinn radical? Which of his positions are radical? You can't just use that word over and over and expect me to take you seriously- I don't.
You lack specificity when debating :)
Care to try again?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristramshandy3
If you have a political agenda that you push when writing a history book then it’s not an accurate history book and its not fit for schools and universities.
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago
@Yereviltwin2 everyone has an agenda. what's yours?
tristramshandy3 1 year ago
@tristram "everyone has an agenda. what's yours"
My agenda is fairness, context, and truth in history. America’s history is a great one that has given the most amount of people the greatest opportunity. There has been greatness and sadness in our history and both need to be told honestly. Our history should bring us together and make our country strong, not divide us. Zinns account of history is inaccurate and undermines the context of many of his sited events. He’s purposely leaves out info
Yereviltwin2 1 year ago