@Dawnemperor1 But the fact that the majority of the Taiwanese inherit a Sinitic language and practice Sinitic customs which they consider inherited from their ancestors is far from malleable.
@Dawnemperor1 You probably don't know that the Han Chinese identity is a deep-rooted belief among TW folks. Come to Taiwan and conduct a poll. You'll see.
@Dawnemperor1 Try googleing Han Chinese in Taiwan. If you conduct a survey by yourself, avoid the term "Chinese", as it has political connotations with the PRC. Use the term Han Ren instead. There are two major branches of Han Chinese in Taiwan: Hoklo and Hakka.
@Dawnemperor1 Taiwanese people's Han identity has a strong basis on language, culture and religion. What is the basis of the so-called Taiwanese ethnic identity?
Also, as far I as can see, a grand majority of taiwanese who filled in 'taiwanese' on the census did so not because they deny they are Han Chinese, but because they don't want to be associated with the Chinese from the PRC. It thus turns out that their move was politicalled charged.
@TheAntiMoronTW And yet there are people who choose to identify as Taiwanese not out of malice towards the mainland, but because of their sense of mentality.
Ultimately, ethnicity can based upon shared social experience. One of the reasons people choose to identify as Taiwanese is because Taiwan has a mixed history(obviously not the only country); why should the majority of its people rely only on a single identity such as Han Chinese?
First of all, this is about self-identification. People have the right to identify themselves as "Taiwanese". The ethnicity of "Han Chinese" is something that disregards all the intermixing and geographical migrations of various groups. No one is being forced to identify with Taiwanese, but I consider a double standard to force people to identify as Han Chinese just because of ancestral origin. Besides, are people not allowed to identify as Chinese, because they aren't "Han"?
I AM TAIWANESE AMERICAN, AND ADAMANTLY SO! I don't understand why Chinese people, people who don't know me, try so hard every time I express my genuine belief in who *I* am and *MY* identification of myself. Chinese people cannot brainwash me or coerce me into denying who I perceive or identify myself to be. I don't need an ancestry tree or a legislation to support that I believe in. It's the FREEDOM to know and accept myself. Oh wait. Forgot you dunno what freedom is. sorry.
haha what a fucking joke, unless you're an aborigine from the mountains in Taiwan, your ethnicity is CHINESE! keep dreaming but you will have to put yourself down as Chinese because that's what you are.
@Dawnemperor1 Those Taiwanese who deny their Han identity (except for the aboriginals) either have a political agenda or are downright ignorant about ethnicnity, the formation of the Han identity, and Chinese history. It's getting a bit boring to educate them with material that a junior high school student is supposed to know.
@ChenJunHung Another irrelevant analogy. Indian has never been an ethnic label; it comprises Indo-Aryan and Dravidian peoples. But the term Chinese does have an ethnic meaning, which can be found in Oxoford English Dictionary and American Heritage Dictionary.
Here's the definition of Han from American Heritage Dictionary. As you can see, in the ethnic sense, it's equal to Han Chinese and, alas, Chinese!
A member of the principal ethnic group of China, constituting about 93 percent of the population, especially as distinguished from Manchus, Mongols, Huis, and other minority nationalities. Also called Chinese, Han Chinese.
Look, people have the right to define themselves as whatever ethnicity they relate to. It's not set in stone. I don't really see why there's so much resistance to this movement. If you consider yourself Han Chinese, there's nothing wrong with that, and vice versa. Every comment I see on this video seems to be pretty intolerant of other's opinion.
@Dawnemperor1 there are stringent conditions to be met, in order to recognize an ethnicity. For the general Taiwanese, to deny Han Chinese is like the Dutch people denying their Germanic identity. The label Taiwanese, as far as we can see, is regional-political. It can refer even to a Taiwanese aboriginal who bears close affinity to some indigenous tribes in the Philippines. Surely not many Taiwanese ppl consider themselves ethnically akin to the Philipinos.
@TheAntiMoronTW Please elaborate on these "stringent conditions" which may have been constructed. If we share blood, that's great. But that shouldn't dictate our identity. On the aspect of culture, groups of people can influence each other. I know Taiwanese cannot deny Han influence, but they should not be forced to identify as Han Chinese because it's considered the only option.
@TheAntiMoronTW "@Dawnemperor1 there are stringent conditions to be met, in order to recognize an ethnicity. For the general Taiwanese, to deny Han Chinese is like the Dutch people denying their Germanic identity. The label Taiwanese, as far as we can see, is regional-political. It can refer even to a Taiwanese aboriginal who bears close affinity to some indigenous tribes in the Philippines. Surely not many Taiwanese ppl consider themselves ethnically akin to the Philipinos"
@Dawnemperor1 I am not talking about blood; in fact, blood is not quite an important concept in the definition of Han Chinese, who have absorbed different racial elements throught history even in mainland China. I'm talking about culture and self-identity. Most TW folks do identify themselves as Han Ren. The few who claim to be 'ethnic Taiwanese' are either aboriginals, or under the belief that mixture of blood disqualifies them from being Han Chinese.
The problem is "Taiwanese" is not an ethnicity. The same reason why "American" or "Singaporean" or "Australian" isn't an ethnicity either. 98% of the Taiwanese population is of the Han Chinese Ethnic group, hence racially, Taiwanese people are of the Chinese race. Unless you are a Tainwanese aboriginal, which indeed makes racially Taiwanese.
They are taiwanese, simple as that. Saying Taiwanese is chinese race is like saying australians are british race? indeed they are, but that's not the longer the point anymore.
@owardis397 You obviously can't read. First off all, Australia is actually a real country unlike the island of Taiwan. Second of all, Australia doesn't have a ethnic group that dominates 98% of the country. Third, there's also Chinese people from Australia who have no problem with being considered of Chinese descent either. You try too hard and fail at it miserably.
You're obviously talking jack shit since you're the one trying to hard to explain to me, so what if they make up 98%? Taiwan is even bigger than Bangladesh. China is 91% Han chinese, the point is they don't identify with Chinese people, it's the same with Australian people who identify with British people. Go ask any taiwanese people, all the Taiwanese people I know see themselves different to Chinese.
@owardis397 Most Taiwanese do consider themselves to be Han (Chinese). The term Chinese is ambiguous; they don't consider themselves to be Chinese in the national sense.
@liuyurui They admit that they are of Han descent. Obviously they can't deny their Han ancestry, it's exactly like how Australians can't deny their British ancestry. But I've met many Taiwanese people who talk like have nothing to do with Chinese, most of them still have hate chinese people, at least all the ones I met have this strong hatred for China.
@owardis397 LOL so you're using the "Taiwanese" people you know. They don't represent the whole Taiwanese population. that's like me saying I know White people who don't like Black people, therefore Whites must not like Blacks!!!
oh oh oh using your logic against you again, I've met plenty of people from Taiwan who say "I am Chinese from Taiwan". Stop crying with your hundreds of troll accounts. We all know you're butt hurt!!
@WhiteGuysAsianGirls Shut up, you don't know how the situation is. Surveys shows most Taiwanese would rather identify only as Taiwanese, others prefer to identify both Chinese and Taiwanese, but only 5% would identify as Chinese. You say you met plenty of Taiwanese? I say you lied about the experience and met maybe only 1 or 2. And how the hell would you know I have hundreds of troll accounts? Your account name itself is sign you're trying to trolling on me.
@owardis397 I believe you misunderstand or misinterpret the findings on the survey by mixing up the two senses of Chinese; true, most TW people don't identity with the Chinese in the political sense, i.e. the PRC Chinese. But they are ready to identity themselves as Han Chinese, in the ethnic sense. They say they're Taiwanese mostly in the political sense.
I haven't misinterpreted anything and I never said they deny being Han chinese. I said they see themselves being different to Han from China. In a political and identity sense, they don't see themselves being chinese, rather they see themselves Taiwanese of Han ancestry.
@owardis397 then I don't see how these Taiwanese-Americans can justify the write-in of Taiwanese on the census form, since you admit that they display Han Chinese identity.
@owardis397 Then what is the point? Even on the census form it states RACE. First of all Australian is NOT a race, it's a nationality, learn the difference. Also Australians are NOT of the British Race because, number one, British is not a race, if you're talking about Caucasian British Races, there are Anglo Saxons, Celtics and Also Icelandic Races. Australia is a multicultural society which is made up of lots of different races, same with America.
First of all Taiwanese is NOT a race, it's a nationality, learn the difference. Also Taiwanese are NOT of the chinese race because, number one, chinese is not a race, there's not such thing a han chinese race since there is so much diversity, Han is only one of the 56 ethnic group in China, And China is a is a multicultural society which is made up of lots of different races.
@Hongers1 Yes I did read your firs post. Which is why I could repeat similar to what you wrote. I'm just using your own logic to argue against you. You're saying Australian is a multicultural society but so is China, in fact china has 56 ethnic groups, with many sub-han ethnic groups.
@owardis397 i'm saying that Han Chinese of the "Chinese ethnic groups", because the term chinese goes beyond it's definition as a nationality. Also saying Taiwanese American isn't really accurate because the Proper name for Taiwan is the Republic of China, not the republic of Taiwan. So technically Taiwanese people are Chinese even by a nationality basis.
@owardis397 also note that the whole point of this arguement is about race/ethnicity and NOT nationality. The census form clearly states RACE. I made the point before that Taiwanese is a nationality NOT and ethnicity, these people's nationality is clearly American, technically doesn't matter which political side you're coming from, by race these people are ethnically Han Chinese and are of American Nationality
@Hongers1 You should realize by now there's no such thing as Chinese race. There is ethnic Han which is one of the 56 ethnic group of China. Han Chinese is an ethnicity not an race. Anyone who identify and assimilate into Han chinese become's one. Taiwanese are descended of ethnic Han but it just makes them Taiwanese Han. If you want to talk about race, than genetically they are more like an mix of Han Chinese and Taiwanese aborigines. (Go read Genetic of Taiwanese people on wikipedia)
@owardis397 Ok. So Chinese is not a race. Then why does it occur on the census form? One plausible interepretation is that it means ethnicnity. And the majority of the Taiwanese are indeed Chinese, in the ethnic sense. So they should fill in Chinese.
@ChenJunHung Don't try to compare apples and apples; British or Australian is not an ethnic label. But Chinese is. One of its senses is Han Chinese, aka. hanren. This is the sense the census was concerned about. Surely, most TW folks are Han Chinese, and to check "Chinese" is the right choice for most TW people, unless you consider yourself non-Han.
@liuyurui ok chink shut up already. your comments have been almost spamed and you havent learned lesson? everybody hates you dirty ass infant eating chinese motherfucking cant you still understand? 幹您娘 中國垃圾 唔愛來台灣eh影片eh腳亂啦！ jeeeee byeeeee
@liuyurui 漢人 never = 中國人, are you stupid? why do they have to combine ''han'' and ''chinese'' coz those two words are totally different things. thats something morons like you will never understand. let me use the last set of logic and see if you can understnad, if not then bye bye. we got a bunch of british americans, and if your a british american, yup then your part of the british culture, right? but just because your british doesnt mean your american. like i may be a han, but im not chinese
@ChenJunHung None said 漢人= 中國人. I was simply pointing out that the term Chinese is ambiguous. Go to Oxford English Dictionary online or American Heritage Dictionary. You'll see one sense of Chinese is Han (Chinese).
@ChenJunHung I also recommend you to google "Han Chinese in Taiwan". You'll find a page on 國立暨南大學 that lists a number of courses offered in the anthropology department. One course is entitled "Society and Culture of Han Chinese in Taiwan", translated as "台灣漢人社會與文化” on their website. So, the term Han Chinese can mean Hanren.
@ChenJunHung I think the ignorant people should shut up their foul mouth. It's not uncommon for medical journals to refer to Han population of Taiwan as Han Chinese. Try to google Genome scan of Han Chinese schizophrenia families from Taiwan: confirmation of linkage to 10q22.3 and you'll see.
@liuyurui they also have hmong chinese and mongolian chinese and even korean chinese, are you saying all hmong, mongolian, chinese, and muslims are chinese too? im sorry, maybe your brain doesnt work like we do. but stop posting crazy shit like that if you dont know anything, alright?
@ChenJunHung True, there are ethnic Hmong, Mongolians, Uyghurs, Tibetans living in mainland China. They are Chinese in the political sense; but the term Chinese has more than one meaning. One meaning is Han Chinese, namely, Hanren. Since the census is concerned with ethnicity, the only relevant sense of Chinese is Han Chinese.
@ChenJunHung you're calling him a chink yet your ancesters originated in China, the Han Chinese population in Taiwan really grow after 1949 after the KMT lost to the Communist in Mainland. Also the REAL name of Taiwane is the Republic of China, so either way Taiwanese people are Chinese. Also in the Taiwanese legislation, it still claims ownership of mainland and even recognises Nanjing as the Real capital of the Repulic of China. So good job on putting down your own people faggot.
@Hongers1 whos an idiot damn it, really who the fuck are you chinks to decide if we should be a race or not? coz none of us ever feel like part of that dirty third world country, why is it so hard to make stupid fucks like you understand?
@ChenJunHung can't stand the truth aye? that's too bad, it's sad that you think you represent the majority of taiwanese people. also from all of your comments you have demonstrated that the dumbest fuck on this page is you and that you're nothing more than a taiwanese redneck. good day to you
@Hongers1 He is too cowardly to face the fact that the Han population in Taiwan is commonly translated as Han Chinese even in academia. I've shown him that medical journals and athropology departments in universities commonly use "Han Chinese" to refer to the Han population in Taiwan. If he thinks this is not enough, he can google "Han Chinese Cell and Genome Bank in Taiwan: Purpose, Design and Ethical Considerations".
@ChenJunHung hah! can't stand the fact that no one else seems to agree with you? i enjoy making stupid people like you look even more stupid, because you're just about as smart as a black guy joining the kkk while shouting "n*ggers must die". your parents must be really proud they've raised such an intellegent child with impeccable logic (that's called sarcasm btw, but i guess that's not in your vocabulary since you don't even understand the meaning of Chinese. Go buy a dictionary)
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@thedebatekid You can find many Han Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. who don't like the Han Chinese from mainland China, but still they belong to the same ethnicity. You can also look at the American history. There are pretty many Americans of German descent, right? You even had a president of German descent. But so what? The US still fought a war against Germany! Come on! Don't be so naive as to believe the same ethnicity guarantees that people like each other.
@thedebatekid the kind of assimilation trouble you mentioned is typical in every immigration society. Even the Han Chinese in one province of China suffers similar trouble and discrimination in another. Belonging to one ethnicity does not guarantee one can assimilate well into the local community. You can find many Han Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. who don't like the Han Chinese from mainland China, but still they belong to the same ethnicity.
@thedebatekid There were indeed assimilation policies taking place in Taiwan. Otherwise, you could not explain why we practice Han customs and speak Han Chinese languages and have Han Chinese genealogy books. We don't have Japanese surnames, and we don't celebrate Japanese holidays. The Chinese traditions have existed even before the KMT's arrival. I implore you to grab some history textbooks from Taiwan, or better yet, come to Taiwan and get enrolled in a local junior high school.
@TheAntiMoronTW IF there were no assimilation measures at that time, the only viable explanation is that the residents were ethnic Chinese. Therefore they spoke Hakka or Southern Min and practiced Han Chinese customs. I don't know whether thedebatekid has been aware of this. Even if he denied that the TW aboriginals just got sinicized, he still would come to the conclusion that we are ethnic Han Chinese-- a conclusion he'd never accept.
@thedebatekid I agree that Taiwan was not incorporated into China until the Qing dynasty. And I never deny that aboriginal tries were in control of it. So why were you mentioning things every Taiwanese knows?
As you said, the Qing dynasty indeed restricted the number of Han Chinese from coming to Taiwan. But the policy was not strictly enforced and there were thus illegal immigrations. Also, the policy was lifted afterwards. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Please remember that.
@thedebatekid For your information, every Taiwanese student has to study six years of Chinese history and geography in high school. This is because the constitution of my country claims sovereignty over mainland China. So it is no wonder we know better about Chinese history than you, just as the average American know betters about American history than we.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
the definition of ethnicnity in the MW dictionary is not so precise. Although 'national' is used in the definition, it does not necessarily indicate that one's country of origin can justify an ethnic grouping; this is because the term 'national' is ambiguous (it can be about a nation-state or simply a country). Consider Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. They are in the same national group, i.e. the same country, but you wouldn't say they are in the same ethnic group!
the definition of ethnicnity in the MW dictionary is not so precise. Although 'national' is used in the definition, it does not necessarily indicate that one's country of origin can justify an ethnic grouping; this is because the term 'national' is ambiguous (it can be about a nation-state or simply a country). Consider Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. They are in the same national group, i.e. the same country, but you wouldn't say they are in the same ethnic group!
@thedebatekid Do you really think 50 years ia long time sufficient to change our Han identity? Once again, I agree with liuyurui's assertion that you know little about Chinese history. The Chinese were ruled by the Mongolians during the Yuan dynasty for 97 years. Still, this fact did not change the Han identity of the Chinese people. So 50 years is not much in comparison.
@thedebatekid It's funny that you attacked liuyurui for not providing official information, whereas at the same time you've been failing to do just that. Could you please show me which article of the US constitution forbids a census to include noncitizens? It's also hilarious to see you get mad at the 'negative connotations' of the Americans; it is you who started this ethnic slander, so you asked for it. But then again, they're just 'connotations'. That means not every American is that bad.
Here's some additional info for you that indicates our Han Chinese identity. Go to the National Central Library's website and search for this thesis: Genetic Diversity in the HLA classⅠA Gene of the Nine Taiwan Aboriginal Tribes and Han Chinese as Revealed by High Resolution Sequence-Based HLA Typing: Implication for the Origins and Dispersal of the Taiwan Aborigines. There are many more such works that testify to our Han Chinese identity. Only TROLLS will refuse to face the fact.
@thedebatekid I hasten to add that you required me to offer evdicence, but you yourself haven't done that. I have asked you to show me the web address where you found 'Taiwanese' defined as an ethnic identity. You've just IGNORED IT! Tell me, do you think that making claims with no evidence is responsible academic conduct?
@thedebatekid There is another reason why I think you're trolling. You said that the Chinese civil war ended a long time ago, and I told you it's not officially over. I showed you the reference to a scholarly work and to a former government official as evidence for my claim. What about you? You couldn't even give a name or mention a publication to back up your claim. The same is with the census issue. YOU HAVEN'T CITED ANYTHING OFFICAIL TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.
@thedebatekid From the moment that you brought 'aboriginal blood' up as an argument against TW folks' Han identity, I know you know little about the several assimilation policies that took place in Chinese history. Every high-school kid in Taiwan knows about this, but apparently Americans don't.
@thedebatekid Taiwan's educational system is as typical as the American, EXCEPT in the history classes we receive. Since there's a heavy emphasis on Chinese history, students in Taiwan of course know better than you on this point.
@thedebatekid Go to h t t p : //2 0 1 0. c e n s u s .gov/ p a rt n e r s /p d f / f a c t S h e e t _General.pdf. And you'll see the non-citizens are counted. Now you can see the US census bureau does count non-citizens.
@thedebatekid I am not a major in Chinese history, but what I want to say is, even a high school kid in Taiwan knows about Chinese history better than you. Ok, if you want me to reveal my US educational credentials, you should do the same first so that I can think you're trustworthy.
@thedebatekid I know you would say Wikipedia is unreliable. So here's something from a TV host in America. Google "Glenn Beck thinks non-citizens shouldn't be counted in the Census". Clearly, if the US government did not include non-citizens in the census, Glen Beck would not have offered his remark.
@thedebatekid I obtained an MA from the National Taiwan Normal University, and currently pursuing a doctoral degree in theoretical linguistics at a university in northeastern America. To show you that you are wrong does not take a history major; anyone that went through typical education in TAIWAN can prove that.
@thedebatekid Let's see who is making a fool of himself. Here's one sentence from Wikipedia that is supposed to enlghten you:
Decennial U.S. Census figures are based on actual counts of persons dwelling in U.S. residential structures. They include citizens, non-citizen legal residents, non-citizen long-term visitors and illegal immigrants.
@thedebatekid Even I reveal my academic credentials, you may well disbelieve it. SO what's the point of showing that? Ok. If you don't think that part of the video is correct, then you can go to the International Office at any university and ask them whether non-citizens could fill in the census form. They'd say yes. I have told you that I received the form, but you still don't trust me.
@thedebatekid I'm sorry, but it is you that is insulting your own intelligence. Have you really watched the video footage at 1:00-1:10? What does the boy say? He says 'IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE A US CITIZEN; EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE COUNTED." If you cannot even understand this sentence of his, then I can safely assume that you are trolling.
@thedebatekid I have never said aboriginals would consider themselves to be Han Chinese. Waves of Chinese immigration to Taiwan began a couple of centuries ago. So there've been familyies of Han Chinese origin in Taiwan. If you want to know my academic background, please send me a private message. It's unsafe to reveal any personal info here.
@thedebatekid it depends on where you take the definition, and obviously you are not giving a complete definition. Here's one for you, one that does NOT include national identity: An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and/or an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[
@thedebatekid Everyone that went through the typical education system knows Chinese history better than you. To reiterate, this video is not about Americans, or Taiwanese-Americans, for that matter. I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
@thedebatekid Which modern country does not absorb cultural elements from elsewhere? Even mainland China has absorbed elements of American culture and Japanese and Korean culture. Your claim that Taiwan is unique because of cultural variety is hardly convincing at all. Btw, my family have been rooted in Taiwan for over 200 years, whether you believe it or not.
@thedebatekid Really? Give me the web address of that definition so that I can verify it. When I went to h t t p : / / w w w . m e r r i a m - w e b s t e r.c o m / d i c t i o n a r y / t a i w a n e s e , the entry definition that occured is that of Taiwan. There is simply no definition of Taiwanese listed.
@thedebatekid Being well-educated in some area of speciality does not presuppose one's familarity with Chinese history and ethnicnity in general. Btw, the kind of 'negative connotations' I'm talking about are well-known to East Asians, and generally do not apply to Asian-Americans; thse connotations are about White trash.
@thedebatekid To reiterate, this video is not about Americans, or Taiwanese-Americans, for that matter. I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
@thedebatekid I am in a local Taiwanese student organization. But that does not signify Taiwanese as a separate ETHNIC identity; it does signify Taiwanese as a NATIONAL identity. Again, you have confused the two rypes of identity.
@thedebatekid You are plain wrong on this point, as I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
@thedebatekid You display a lack of knowledge about the concept of the Han Chinese and ethnicity in general. There is no such thing as 100% Han Chinese. There were waves of assimilation throughout the history. So it would be unsurprising at all if the Han Chinese in Taiwan are not pure. No one is pure. The same applies to Turkic people. They are heavily mixed, probably more so than the Han Chinese. In fact, in modern times, people have found that racial purity is a myth.
@liuyurui Exactly. No one is 100% han. If someone comes to the conclusion that they're ethnically Taiwanese that's fine, it's their own choice. As long as they're sure about the historical background, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. I don't think forcing people to admit that they're Han is any better than forcing them believe that they're Taiwanese. Are we just going to call everyone who considers themselves Taiwanese a deluded idiot?
@Dawnemperor1 If they say they're 'ethnic Taiwanese', then it is really perplexing why there are fewer 'ethnic Taiwanese' in Taiwan than in the States; most ppl in Taiwan admit they're Han Chinese, aka. han ren or hua ren.
So the majority admits it, therefore it's right? There is an inherent flaw with that kind of logic. Not to say people in Taiwan don't have the right to identify themselves as Han Chinese, but this is only displays their choice. This doesn't mean "Taiwanese ethnic identity" is non-existent.
@Dawnemperor1 The tricky part about this 'Taiwanese ethnic identity' is that there is no sufficiently cultural symbol of this identity, not in language, religion, etc. By this I do not imply there is no linguistic difference between Taiwan and mainland, only that the linguistic differences are not large enough as, say, Mandarin and English. If there is no such cultrual symbol for this 'Taiwanese ethnic identity', what is it for?
"Difference" is something that is highly subjective. Taiwan has a fairly unique history. It might not like seem much compared to Chinese history and the dynasties, but it has a had a variety of influences. Looking at Taiwan as just another part of Chinese history can be a bit limiting.
@Dawnemperor1 Every place has a unqiue history. Singapore also has one, but that does not render Chinese-Singaporeans non-Han Chinese! What matters, to me at least, is the memory of the ancestral past. We have pretty strong memory about where we come from, etc.
@liuyurui Then we can appreciate culture without having become our dominant identity. History has its flaws as well, and as it's been said, ethnicity is constantly changing.
@Dawnemperor1 ethnicity can change, but the conditions have to be met. True, TW has a unique history, but Singapore, Malaysia, and every part of mainland China also do. This means that uniqueness of history doesn't guarantee a separate ethnic identity. What matters is, as I have said quite some time ago, whether people retain memory about their ancestral past. Most TW ppl have clear memory about their Han heirtage, and almost no, or very little, memory about their aboriginal ancestors.
@liuyurui And that's why they're trying to learn about their aboriginal heritage. When I say unique, I don't mean that it's more unique than every other culture. People retain history about the past because history is important to development. It lets people learn from mistakes, or admire achievements. I'm sure that many people other than Han chinese admire Chinese culture, but that doesn't mean they want to be identified as such. But how much importance do you place upon ancestry?
@Dawnemperor1 I just want to be clear on your position; do you dislike the establishment of a Taiwanese identity, or do you believe that it doesn't(or shouldn't) exist?
@Dawnemperor1 The Taiwanese identity as a political one may not be a bad thing, but to treat it on par with the Han Chinese and other established ethnicities is rather unnatural. What is the Taiwanese as a ethnic group? Any defining characteristics? The most common one one can think of is the Southern Min language. Unfortunately, it is a Sinitic language and the aboriginals don't speak it. So if we take it as a benchmark of the Taiwanese, then paradoxically, aborigines are not Taiwanese.
@liuyurui Unnatural? That is also quite subjective. Then again ethnic identity is very subjective, as it relies on personal self-idnentification with others. Ethnic identity is not set in stone. If the problem here is not seeing enough difference, or a defining feature that distinguishes Taiwanese from Han Chinese, then maybe it's too early to say.
In Taiwan, more and more people identify themselves Taiwanese now.
According to the poll, 75 percent,give or take, of "Taiwan people" say they are Taiwanese.
About 15 percent say they're both Taiwanese and Chinese.
cyes5031700 8 hours ago
It's time to be more aware that things like ethnicity are malleable. What does Han Chinese even mean? Descendants of the yellow emperor?
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 But the fact that the majority of the Taiwanese inherit a Sinitic language and practice Sinitic customs which they consider inherited from their ancestors is far from malleable.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
@TheAntiMoronTW From one way of looking at it. Customs travel between cultures, become inherited, integrated, or retoooled.
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 You probably don't know that the Han Chinese identity is a deep-rooted belief among TW folks. Come to Taiwan and conduct a poll. You'll see.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
@TheAntiMoronTW Do you mind providing some statistics?
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 Try googleing Han Chinese in Taiwan. If you conduct a survey by yourself, avoid the term "Chinese", as it has political connotations with the PRC. Use the term Han Ren instead. There are two major branches of Han Chinese in Taiwan: Hoklo and Hakka.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 Taiwanese people's Han identity has a strong basis on language, culture and religion. What is the basis of the so-called Taiwanese ethnic identity?
Also, as far I as can see, a grand majority of taiwanese who filled in 'taiwanese' on the census did so not because they deny they are Han Chinese, but because they don't want to be associated with the Chinese from the PRC. It thus turns out that their move was politicalled charged.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
@TheAntiMoronTW And yet there are people who choose to identify as Taiwanese not out of malice towards the mainland, but because of their sense of mentality.
Ultimately, ethnicity can based upon shared social experience. One of the reasons people choose to identify as Taiwanese is because Taiwan has a mixed history(obviously not the only country); why should the majority of its people rely only on a single identity such as Han Chinese?
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 then iroincally， there are fewer 'ethnic Taiwanese' in Taiwan than in the US.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
First of all, this is about self-identification. People have the right to identify themselves as "Taiwanese". The ethnicity of "Han Chinese" is something that disregards all the intermixing and geographical migrations of various groups. No one is being forced to identify with Taiwanese, but I consider a double standard to force people to identify as Han Chinese just because of ancestral origin. Besides, are people not allowed to identify as Chinese, because they aren't "Han"?
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
I AM TAIWANESE AMERICAN, AND ADAMANTLY SO! I don't understand why Chinese people, people who don't know me, try so hard every time I express my genuine belief in who *I* am and *MY* identification of myself. Chinese people cannot brainwash me or coerce me into denying who I perceive or identify myself to be. I don't need an ancestry tree or a legislation to support that I believe in. It's the FREEDOM to know and accept myself. Oh wait. Forgot you dunno what freedom is. sorry.
AsianShakespeare 2 weeks ago
haha what a fucking joke, unless you're an aborigine from the mountains in Taiwan, your ethnicity is CHINESE! keep dreaming but you will have to put yourself down as Chinese because that's what you are.
hackashaq8 4 weeks ago
Taiwanese are Han ethinic, Han ethinic are chinese. But i still respect Taiwanese people, they are cool and really polite
kendai911 1 month ago
Who is the half Taiwanese half African American guy??
donshan123 1 month ago
@donshan123 how the hell can you be half taiwanese and half american? your one of the other...?
2SilentD 1 month ago
Yall niggas look Filipino...
samuraiyao 1 month ago
Taiwan will always be part of China! (quickly runs out of room)
destinationskyline07 1 month ago
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@Dawnemperor1 Those Taiwanese who deny their Han identity (except for the aboriginals) either have a political agenda or are downright ignorant about ethnicnity, the formation of the Han identity, and Chinese history. It's getting a bit boring to educate them with material that a junior high school student is supposed to know.
liuyurui 1 month ago
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liuyurui 1 month ago
and bangladeshi people are indian
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung Another irrelevant analogy. Indian has never been an ethnic label; it comprises Indo-Aryan and Dravidian peoples. But the term Chinese does have an ethnic meaning, which can be found in Oxoford English Dictionary and American Heritage Dictionary.
TheAntiMoronTW 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung
Here's the definition of Han from American Heritage Dictionary. As you can see, in the ethnic sense, it's equal to Han Chinese and, alas, Chinese!
A member of the principal ethnic group of China, constituting about 93 percent of the population, especially as distinguished from Manchus, Mongols, Huis, and other minority nationalities. Also called Chinese, Han Chinese.
TheAntiMoronTW 1 month ago
they must want it really bad
coranglais 2 months ago
Look, people have the right to define themselves as whatever ethnicity they relate to. It's not set in stone. I don't really see why there's so much resistance to this movement. If you consider yourself Han Chinese, there's nothing wrong with that, and vice versa. Every comment I see on this video seems to be pretty intolerant of other's opinion.
Dawnemperor1 2 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 there are stringent conditions to be met, in order to recognize an ethnicity. For the general Taiwanese, to deny Han Chinese is like the Dutch people denying their Germanic identity. The label Taiwanese, as far as we can see, is regional-political. It can refer even to a Taiwanese aboriginal who bears close affinity to some indigenous tribes in the Philippines. Surely not many Taiwanese ppl consider themselves ethnically akin to the Philipinos.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
@TheAntiMoronTW Please elaborate on these "stringent conditions" which may have been constructed. If we share blood, that's great. But that shouldn't dictate our identity. On the aspect of culture, groups of people can influence each other. I know Taiwanese cannot deny Han influence, but they should not be forced to identify as Han Chinese because it's considered the only option.
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 can you re-post the previous remark of mine where "stringent" is found? I kinda forgot the context where I said that word.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
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@TheAntiMoronTW "@Dawnemperor1 there are stringent conditions to be met, in order to recognize an ethnicity. For the general Taiwanese, to deny Han Chinese is like the Dutch people denying their Germanic identity. The label Taiwanese, as far as we can see, is regional-political. It can refer even to a Taiwanese aboriginal who bears close affinity to some indigenous tribes in the Philippines. Surely not many Taiwanese ppl consider themselves ethnically akin to the Philipinos"
Dawnemperor1 2 weeks ago
@Dawnemperor1 I am not talking about blood; in fact, blood is not quite an important concept in the definition of Han Chinese, who have absorbed different racial elements throught history even in mainland China. I'm talking about culture and self-identity. Most TW folks do identify themselves as Han Ren. The few who claim to be 'ethnic Taiwanese' are either aboriginals, or under the belief that mixture of blood disqualifies them from being Han Chinese.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 weeks ago
i fking loled at this video
xazns0ulx 2 months ago
dude we're talking about race, obviously Taiwanese is not a race
Dont make it so hard callin yourself a chinese, Your great great grandfather is a chinese, why so serious
lovecatforever 2 months ago
@lovecatforever it is hard right, coz its like calling yourself a pig only because you're fat
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung hahahaha you're fucking funny Taiwanese redneck, go buy a dictionary and check whats an ethnicity.
lovecatforever 1 month ago
The problem is "Taiwanese" is not an ethnicity. The same reason why "American" or "Singaporean" or "Australian" isn't an ethnicity either. 98% of the Taiwanese population is of the Han Chinese Ethnic group, hence racially, Taiwanese people are of the Chinese race. Unless you are a Tainwanese aboriginal, which indeed makes racially Taiwanese.
Hongers1 2 months ago 25
@Hongers1
They are taiwanese, simple as that. Saying Taiwanese is chinese race is like saying australians are british race? indeed they are, but that's not the longer the point anymore.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 You obviously can't read. First off all, Australia is actually a real country unlike the island of Taiwan. Second of all, Australia doesn't have a ethnic group that dominates 98% of the country. Third, there's also Chinese people from Australia who have no problem with being considered of Chinese descent either. You try too hard and fail at it miserably.
HanGookPOWER 2 months ago
@HanGookPOWER
You're obviously talking jack shit since you're the one trying to hard to explain to me, so what if they make up 98%? Taiwan is even bigger than Bangladesh. China is 91% Han chinese, the point is they don't identify with Chinese people, it's the same with Australian people who identify with British people. Go ask any taiwanese people, all the Taiwanese people I know see themselves different to Chinese.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 Most Taiwanese do consider themselves to be Han (Chinese). The term Chinese is ambiguous; they don't consider themselves to be Chinese in the national sense.
liuyurui 2 months ago
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owardis397 2 months ago
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@liuyurui They admit that they are of Han descent. Obviously they can't deny their Han ancestry, it's exactly like how Australians can't deny their British ancestry. But I've met many Taiwanese people who talk like have nothing to do with Chinese, most of them still have hate chinese people, at least all the ones I met have this strong hatred for China.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 LOL so you're using the "Taiwanese" people you know. They don't represent the whole Taiwanese population. that's like me saying I know White people who don't like Black people, therefore Whites must not like Blacks!!!
oh oh oh using your logic against you again, I've met plenty of people from Taiwan who say "I am Chinese from Taiwan". Stop crying with your hundreds of troll accounts. We all know you're butt hurt!!
WhiteGuysAsianGirls 2 months ago
@WhiteGuysAsianGirls Shut up, you don't know how the situation is. Surveys shows most Taiwanese would rather identify only as Taiwanese, others prefer to identify both Chinese and Taiwanese, but only 5% would identify as Chinese. You say you met plenty of Taiwanese? I say you lied about the experience and met maybe only 1 or 2. And how the hell would you know I have hundreds of troll accounts? Your account name itself is sign you're trying to trolling on me.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 I believe you misunderstand or misinterpret the findings on the survey by mixing up the two senses of Chinese; true, most TW people don't identity with the Chinese in the political sense, i.e. the PRC Chinese. But they are ready to identity themselves as Han Chinese, in the ethnic sense. They say they're Taiwanese mostly in the political sense.
liuyurui 2 months ago
@liuyurui
I haven't misinterpreted anything and I never said they deny being Han chinese. I said they see themselves being different to Han from China. In a political and identity sense, they don't see themselves being chinese, rather they see themselves Taiwanese of Han ancestry.
owardis397 2 months ago
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liuyurui 2 months ago
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@owardis397 then I don't see how these Taiwanese-Americans can justify the write-in of Taiwanese on the census form, since you admit that they display Han Chinese identity.
liuyurui 2 months ago
@owardis397 Then what is the point? Even on the census form it states RACE. First of all Australian is NOT a race, it's a nationality, learn the difference. Also Australians are NOT of the British Race because, number one, British is not a race, if you're talking about Caucasian British Races, there are Anglo Saxons, Celtics and Also Icelandic Races. Australia is a multicultural society which is made up of lots of different races, same with America.
Hongers1 2 months ago
@Hongers1
First of all Taiwanese is NOT a race, it's a nationality, learn the difference. Also Taiwanese are NOT of the chinese race because, number one, chinese is not a race, there's not such thing a han chinese race since there is so much diversity, Han is only one of the 56 ethnic group in China, And China is a is a multicultural society which is made up of lots of different races.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 did you even read my first post? You're basically repeating what i wrote.
Hongers1 2 months ago
@Hongers1 Yes I did read your firs post. Which is why I could repeat similar to what you wrote. I'm just using your own logic to argue against you. You're saying Australian is a multicultural society but so is China, in fact china has 56 ethnic groups, with many sub-han ethnic groups.
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 i'm saying that Han Chinese of the "Chinese ethnic groups", because the term chinese goes beyond it's definition as a nationality. Also saying Taiwanese American isn't really accurate because the Proper name for Taiwan is the Republic of China, not the republic of Taiwan. So technically Taiwanese people are Chinese even by a nationality basis.
Hongers1 2 months ago
@owardis397 also note that the whole point of this arguement is about race/ethnicity and NOT nationality. The census form clearly states RACE. I made the point before that Taiwanese is a nationality NOT and ethnicity, these people's nationality is clearly American, technically doesn't matter which political side you're coming from, by race these people are ethnically Han Chinese and are of American Nationality
Hongers1 2 months ago
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owardis397 2 months ago
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@Hongers1 You should realize by now there's no such thing as Chinese race. There is ethnic Han which is one of the 56 ethnic group of China. Han Chinese is an ethnicity not an race. Anyone who identify and assimilate into Han chinese become's one. Taiwanese are descended of ethnic Han but it just makes them Taiwanese Han. If you want to talk about race, than genetically they are more like an mix of Han Chinese and Taiwanese aborigines. (Go read Genetic of Taiwanese people on wikipedia)
owardis397 2 months ago
@owardis397 Ok. So Chinese is not a race. Then why does it occur on the census form? One plausible interepretation is that it means ethnicnity. And the majority of the Taiwanese are indeed Chinese, in the ethnic sense. So they should fill in Chinese.
liuyurui 2 months ago
@owardis397 lol i just left a comment and then i saw yours, we share the same point, thats great, lets stop those stupid race detectives
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@owardis397 word
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@Hongers1 so the australian americans should be counted as british americans too
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung Don't try to compare apples and apples; British or Australian is not an ethnic label. But Chinese is. One of its senses is Han Chinese, aka. hanren. This is the sense the census was concerned about. Surely, most TW folks are Han Chinese, and to check "Chinese" is the right choice for most TW people, unless you consider yourself non-Han.
liuyurui 1 month ago
@liuyurui ok chink shut up already. your comments have been almost spamed and you havent learned lesson? everybody hates you dirty ass infant eating chinese motherfucking cant you still understand? 幹您娘 中國垃圾 唔愛來台灣eh影片eh腳亂啦！ jeeeee byeeeee
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung 承認自己是漢人，這一點就可以被你認定是從對岸來的，您的推理可真讓人嘆為觀止，佩服佩服！
liuyurui 1 month ago
@liuyurui 漢人 never = 中國人, are you stupid? why do they have to combine ''han'' and ''chinese'' coz those two words are totally different things. thats something morons like you will never understand. let me use the last set of logic and see if you can understnad, if not then bye bye. we got a bunch of british americans, and if your a british american, yup then your part of the british culture, right? but just because your british doesnt mean your american. like i may be a han, but im not chinese
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung None said 漢人= 中國人. I was simply pointing out that the term Chinese is ambiguous. Go to Oxford English Dictionary online or American Heritage Dictionary. You'll see one sense of Chinese is Han (Chinese).
liuyurui 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung I also recommend you to google "Han Chinese in Taiwan". You'll find a page on 國立暨南大學 that lists a number of courses offered in the anthropology department. One course is entitled "Society and Culture of Han Chinese in Taiwan", translated as "台灣漢人社會與文化” on their website. So, the term Han Chinese can mean Hanren.
liuyurui 1 month ago 9
@ChenJunHung I think the ignorant people should shut up their foul mouth. It's not uncommon for medical journals to refer to Han population of Taiwan as Han Chinese. Try to google Genome scan of Han Chinese schizophrenia families from Taiwan: confirmation of linkage to 10q22.3 and you'll see.
TheAntiMoronTW 1 month ago
@liuyurui they also have hmong chinese and mongolian chinese and even korean chinese, are you saying all hmong, mongolian, chinese, and muslims are chinese too? im sorry, maybe your brain doesnt work like we do. but stop posting crazy shit like that if you dont know anything, alright?
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung True, there are ethnic Hmong, Mongolians, Uyghurs, Tibetans living in mainland China. They are Chinese in the political sense; but the term Chinese has more than one meaning. One meaning is Han Chinese, namely, Hanren. Since the census is concerned with ethnicity, the only relevant sense of Chinese is Han Chinese.
liuyurui 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung Here's a definition from OED, specifically written for morons like you who cannot understand the ambiguity of "Chinese":
belonging to or relating to the people forming the dominant ethnic group of China and widely dispersed elsewhere. Also called Han
liuyurui 1 month ago 5
@liuyurui yeah right so human beings and chimpanzees are of the same species too
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung you're calling him a chink yet your ancesters originated in China, the Han Chinese population in Taiwan really grow after 1949 after the KMT lost to the Communist in Mainland. Also the REAL name of Taiwane is the Republic of China, so either way Taiwanese people are Chinese. Also in the Taiwanese legislation, it still claims ownership of mainland and even recognises Nanjing as the Real capital of the Repulic of China. So good job on putting down your own people faggot.
Hongers1 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung you're an idiot, you have just demonstrated how stupid you really are from your comment
Hongers1 1 month ago
@Hongers1 whos an idiot damn it, really who the fuck are you chinks to decide if we should be a race or not? coz none of us ever feel like part of that dirty third world country, why is it so hard to make stupid fucks like you understand?
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung can't stand the truth aye? that's too bad, it's sad that you think you represent the majority of taiwanese people. also from all of your comments you have demonstrated that the dumbest fuck on this page is you and that you're nothing more than a taiwanese redneck. good day to you
Hongers1 1 month ago
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@Hongers1 He is too cowardly to face the fact that the Han population in Taiwan is commonly translated as Han Chinese even in academia. I've shown him that medical journals and athropology departments in universities commonly use "Han Chinese" to refer to the Han population in Taiwan. If he thinks this is not enough, he can google "Han Chinese Cell and Genome Bank in Taiwan: Purpose, Design and Ethical Considerations".
liuyurui 1 month ago
@Hongers1 and besides, stop making accounts to like your own comments you dumb chink
ChenJunHung 1 month ago
@ChenJunHung hah! can't stand the fact that no one else seems to agree with you? i enjoy making stupid people like you look even more stupid, because you're just about as smart as a black guy joining the kkk while shouting "n*ggers must die". your parents must be really proud they've raised such an intellegent child with impeccable logic (that's called sarcasm btw, but i guess that's not in your vocabulary since you don't even understand the meaning of Chinese. Go buy a dictionary)
Hongers1 1 month ago
So can i put other Asian if i'm Vietnamese/Cambodian?
1234Inuasha 2 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 2 months ago
@thedebatekid You can find many Han Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. who don't like the Han Chinese from mainland China, but still they belong to the same ethnicity. You can also look at the American history. There are pretty many Americans of German descent, right? You even had a president of German descent. But so what? The US still fought a war against Germany! Come on! Don't be so naive as to believe the same ethnicity guarantees that people like each other.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
@thedebatekid the kind of assimilation trouble you mentioned is typical in every immigration society. Even the Han Chinese in one province of China suffers similar trouble and discrimination in another. Belonging to one ethnicity does not guarantee one can assimilate well into the local community. You can find many Han Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. who don't like the Han Chinese from mainland China, but still they belong to the same ethnicity.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
@thedebatekid There were indeed assimilation policies taking place in Taiwan. Otherwise, you could not explain why we practice Han customs and speak Han Chinese languages and have Han Chinese genealogy books. We don't have Japanese surnames, and we don't celebrate Japanese holidays. The Chinese traditions have existed even before the KMT's arrival. I implore you to grab some history textbooks from Taiwan, or better yet, come to Taiwan and get enrolled in a local junior high school.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
@TheAntiMoronTW IF there were no assimilation measures at that time, the only viable explanation is that the residents were ethnic Chinese. Therefore they spoke Hakka or Southern Min and practiced Han Chinese customs. I don't know whether thedebatekid has been aware of this. Even if he denied that the TW aboriginals just got sinicized, he still would come to the conclusion that we are ethnic Han Chinese-- a conclusion he'd never accept.
liuyurui 2 months ago
@thedebatekid I agree that Taiwan was not incorporated into China until the Qing dynasty. And I never deny that aboriginal tries were in control of it. So why were you mentioning things every Taiwanese knows?
As you said, the Qing dynasty indeed restricted the number of Han Chinese from coming to Taiwan. But the policy was not strictly enforced and there were thus illegal immigrations. Also, the policy was lifted afterwards. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Please remember that.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
@thedebatekid For your information, every Taiwanese student has to study six years of Chinese history and geography in high school. This is because the constitution of my country claims sovereignty over mainland China. So it is no wonder we know better about Chinese history than you, just as the average American know betters about American history than we.
TheAntiMoronTW 2 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 2 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 2 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@liuyurui
You also forgot the dutch, spanish, Qing rule in taiwan.
owardis397 2 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago 8
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liuyurui 3 months ago
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@Dawnemperor1 The Han Chinese were ruled by the mongols for nearly a century and by the Jurchen people (the Qing dynasty) for over 2 centuries. The Han Chinese in HK were ruled by the British for about a century. Since they maintained the Han Chinese identity even after the foreign rule, I do not see how 50 years of Japanese rule is a good argument against the Han Chinese identity of the Taiwanese people.
liuyurui 3 months ago 4
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liuyurui 3 months ago
the definition of ethnicnity in the MW dictionary is not so precise. Although 'national' is used in the definition, it does not necessarily indicate that one's country of origin can justify an ethnic grouping; this is because the term 'national' is ambiguous (it can be about a nation-state or simply a country). Consider Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. They are in the same national group, i.e. the same country, but you wouldn't say they are in the same ethnic group!
liuyurui 3 months ago 18
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liuyurui 3 months ago
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the definition of ethnicnity in the MW dictionary is not so precise. Although 'national' is used in the definition, it does not necessarily indicate that one's country of origin can justify an ethnic grouping; this is because the term 'national' is ambiguous (it can be about a nation-state or simply a country). Consider Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. They are in the same national group, i.e. the same country, but you wouldn't say they are in the same ethnic group!
liuyurui 3 months ago
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liuyurui 3 months ago
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@thedebatekid Do you really think 50 years ia long time sufficient to change our Han identity? Once again, I agree with liuyurui's assertion that you know little about Chinese history. The Chinese were ruled by the Mongolians during the Yuan dynasty for 97 years. Still, this fact did not change the Han identity of the Chinese people. So 50 years is not much in comparison.
TheAntiMoronTW 3 months ago 4
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@thedebatekid It's funny that you attacked liuyurui for not providing official information, whereas at the same time you've been failing to do just that. Could you please show me which article of the US constitution forbids a census to include noncitizens? It's also hilarious to see you get mad at the 'negative connotations' of the Americans; it is you who started this ethnic slander, so you asked for it. But then again, they're just 'connotations'. That means not every American is that bad.
TheAntiMoronTW 3 months ago 4
Here's some additional info for you that indicates our Han Chinese identity. Go to the National Central Library's website and search for this thesis: Genetic Diversity in the HLA classⅠA Gene of the Nine Taiwan Aboriginal Tribes and Han Chinese as Revealed by High Resolution Sequence-Based HLA Typing: Implication for the Origins and Dispersal of the Taiwan Aborigines. There are many more such works that testify to our Han Chinese identity. Only TROLLS will refuse to face the fact.
liuyurui 3 months ago 5
@thedebatekid I hasten to add that you required me to offer evdicence, but you yourself haven't done that. I have asked you to show me the web address where you found 'Taiwanese' defined as an ethnic identity. You've just IGNORED IT! Tell me, do you think that making claims with no evidence is responsible academic conduct?
liuyurui 3 months ago 5
@thedebatekid There is another reason why I think you're trolling. You said that the Chinese civil war ended a long time ago, and I told you it's not officially over. I showed you the reference to a scholarly work and to a former government official as evidence for my claim. What about you? You couldn't even give a name or mention a publication to back up your claim. The same is with the census issue. YOU HAVEN'T CITED ANYTHING OFFICAIL TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.
liuyurui 3 months ago 8
@thedebatekid From the moment that you brought 'aboriginal blood' up as an argument against TW folks' Han identity, I know you know little about the several assimilation policies that took place in Chinese history. Every high-school kid in Taiwan knows about this, but apparently Americans don't.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Taiwan's educational system is as typical as the American, EXCEPT in the history classes we receive. Since there's a heavy emphasis on Chinese history, students in Taiwan of course know better than you on this point.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Go to h t t p : //2 0 1 0. c e n s u s .gov/ p a rt n e r s /p d f / f a c t S h e e t _General.pdf. And you'll see the non-citizens are counted. Now you can see the US census bureau does count non-citizens.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid I am not a major in Chinese history, but what I want to say is, even a high school kid in Taiwan knows about Chinese history better than you. Ok, if you want me to reveal my US educational credentials, you should do the same first so that I can think you're trustworthy.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid I know you would say Wikipedia is unreliable. So here's something from a TV host in America. Google "Glenn Beck thinks non-citizens shouldn't be counted in the Census". Clearly, if the US government did not include non-citizens in the census, Glen Beck would not have offered his remark.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid I obtained an MA from the National Taiwan Normal University, and currently pursuing a doctoral degree in theoretical linguistics at a university in northeastern America. To show you that you are wrong does not take a history major; anyone that went through typical education in TAIWAN can prove that.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Let's see who is making a fool of himself. Here's one sentence from Wikipedia that is supposed to enlghten you:
Decennial U.S. Census figures are based on actual counts of persons dwelling in U.S. residential structures. They include citizens, non-citizen legal residents, non-citizen long-term visitors and illegal immigrants.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Even I reveal my academic credentials, you may well disbelieve it. SO what's the point of showing that? Ok. If you don't think that part of the video is correct, then you can go to the International Office at any university and ask them whether non-citizens could fill in the census form. They'd say yes. I have told you that I received the form, but you still don't trust me.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@thedebatekid I'm sorry, but it is you that is insulting your own intelligence. Have you really watched the video footage at 1:00-1:10? What does the boy say? He says 'IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE A US CITIZEN; EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE COUNTED." If you cannot even understand this sentence of his, then I can safely assume that you are trolling.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid I have never said aboriginals would consider themselves to be Han Chinese. Waves of Chinese immigration to Taiwan began a couple of centuries ago. So there've been familyies of Han Chinese origin in Taiwan. If you want to know my academic background, please send me a private message. It's unsafe to reveal any personal info here.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid it depends on where you take the definition, and obviously you are not giving a complete definition. Here's one for you, one that does NOT include national identity: An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and/or an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.[
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Everyone that went through the typical education system knows Chinese history better than you. To reiterate, this video is not about Americans, or Taiwanese-Americans, for that matter. I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Which modern country does not absorb cultural elements from elsewhere? Even mainland China has absorbed elements of American culture and Japanese and Korean culture. Your claim that Taiwan is unique because of cultural variety is hardly convincing at all. Btw, my family have been rooted in Taiwan for over 200 years, whether you believe it or not.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Really? Give me the web address of that definition so that I can verify it. When I went to h t t p : / / w w w . m e r r i a m - w e b s t e r.c o m / d i c t i o n a r y / t a i w a n e s e , the entry definition that occured is that of Taiwan. There is simply no definition of Taiwanese listed.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid Being well-educated in some area of speciality does not presuppose one's familarity with Chinese history and ethnicnity in general. Btw, the kind of 'negative connotations' I'm talking about are well-known to East Asians, and generally do not apply to Asian-Americans; thse connotations are about White trash.
liuyurui 3 months ago
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@thedebatekid To reiterate, this video is not about Americans, or Taiwanese-Americans, for that matter. I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid I am in a local Taiwanese student organization. But that does not signify Taiwanese as a separate ETHNIC identity; it does signify Taiwanese as a NATIONAL identity. Again, you have confused the two rypes of identity.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid You are plain wrong on this point, as I received the census form last year, and was asked to fill it in. And your comment was falsified by the video footage itself at 1:00-1:10. THe boy in the video says 'It doesn't matter if you are a US citizen; everyone needs to be counted."
liuyurui 3 months ago
@thedebatekid You display a lack of knowledge about the concept of the Han Chinese and ethnicity in general. There is no such thing as 100% Han Chinese. There were waves of assimilation throughout the history. So it would be unsurprising at all if the Han Chinese in Taiwan are not pure. No one is pure. The same applies to Turkic people. They are heavily mixed, probably more so than the Han Chinese. In fact, in modern times, people have found that racial purity is a myth.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@liuyurui Exactly. No one is 100% han. If someone comes to the conclusion that they're ethnically Taiwanese that's fine, it's their own choice. As long as they're sure about the historical background, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. I don't think forcing people to admit that they're Han is any better than forcing them believe that they're Taiwanese. Are we just going to call everyone who considers themselves Taiwanese a deluded idiot?
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 If they say they're 'ethnic Taiwanese', then it is really perplexing why there are fewer 'ethnic Taiwanese' in Taiwan than in the States; most ppl in Taiwan admit they're Han Chinese, aka. han ren or hua ren.
liuyurui 3 months ago
So the majority admits it, therefore it's right? There is an inherent flaw with that kind of logic. Not to say people in Taiwan don't have the right to identify themselves as Han Chinese, but this is only displays their choice. This doesn't mean "Taiwanese ethnic identity" is non-existent.
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 The tricky part about this 'Taiwanese ethnic identity' is that there is no sufficiently cultural symbol of this identity, not in language, religion, etc. By this I do not imply there is no linguistic difference between Taiwan and mainland, only that the linguistic differences are not large enough as, say, Mandarin and English. If there is no such cultrual symbol for this 'Taiwanese ethnic identity', what is it for?
liuyurui 3 months ago
"Difference" is something that is highly subjective. Taiwan has a fairly unique history. It might not like seem much compared to Chinese history and the dynasties, but it has a had a variety of influences. Looking at Taiwan as just another part of Chinese history can be a bit limiting.
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 Every place has a unqiue history. Singapore also has one, but that does not render Chinese-Singaporeans non-Han Chinese! What matters, to me at least, is the memory of the ancestral past. We have pretty strong memory about where we come from, etc.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@liuyurui Then we can appreciate culture without having become our dominant identity. History has its flaws as well, and as it's been said, ethnicity is constantly changing.
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 ethnicity can change, but the conditions have to be met. True, TW has a unique history, but Singapore, Malaysia, and every part of mainland China also do. This means that uniqueness of history doesn't guarantee a separate ethnic identity. What matters is, as I have said quite some time ago, whether people retain memory about their ancestral past. Most TW ppl have clear memory about their Han heirtage, and almost no, or very little, memory about their aboriginal ancestors.
liuyurui 3 months ago
@liuyurui And that's why they're trying to learn about their aboriginal heritage. When I say unique, I don't mean that it's more unique than every other culture. People retain history about the past because history is important to development. It lets people learn from mistakes, or admire achievements. I'm sure that many people other than Han chinese admire Chinese culture, but that doesn't mean they want to be identified as such. But how much importance do you place upon ancestry?
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 I just want to be clear on your position; do you dislike the establishment of a Taiwanese identity, or do you believe that it doesn't(or shouldn't) exist?
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
@Dawnemperor1 The Taiwanese identity as a political one may not be a bad thing, but to treat it on par with the Han Chinese and other established ethnicities is rather unnatural. What is the Taiwanese as a ethnic group? Any defining characteristics? The most common one one can think of is the Southern Min language. Unfortunately, it is a Sinitic language and the aboriginals don't speak it. So if we take it as a benchmark of the Taiwanese, then paradoxically, aborigines are not Taiwanese.
liuyurui 3 months ago 10
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@liuyurui Unnatural? That is also quite subjective. Then again ethnic identity is very subjective, as it relies on personal self-idnentification with others. Ethnic identity is not set in stone. If the problem here is not seeing enough difference, or a defining feature that distinguishes Taiwanese from Han Chinese, then maybe it's too early to say.
Dawnemperor1 3 months ago
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liuyurui 3 months ago