1/2 Myth of Imputed Righteousness of Christ - Jesse Morrell

[Mkvine]

I think reformed theology misses an obvious fact in regards to Romans 4:3, 22. I says that Abraham's FAITH was counted to him as righteous. It does not say that the alien righteousness of Christ was counted to Abraham. Faith is something personal. This is the simple plain reading of the text that, unfortunately, reformed apologist tend to overlook.

[PTSaputo]

Yet, Romans 4 pronounces Abraham righteous because he believed God. 4:8 provides states "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." This quote from Psalm 32 promises forgiveness to those who repent in sincerity. I am not looking for an excuse to sin, but I do see in the N.T. continual reminders to put off certain attitudes and put on other attitudes, in essence acknowledging that the church has continued to walk in sins, some quite serious.

So, what is it?

[stevehayes13]

Thus do I not condemn you. Go and sin no more.

[hsp2thend]

Jesse, you should dispense with Barnes and Noble, er, Clarke.They have apparently drunk the kool-aid of C. G. Finney's rank pelagianism, and you drink it too. God's justice DEMANDS PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. Either Jesus Christ bore GOD'S wrath (punishment) that your sins, even on-going sins - though hopefully being "mortified", or you, sir, will burn in hell, having no substitute (savior). Right standing before God requires FULL ATONEMENT (PAYMENT) for your sin(s). FORGIVENESS = A PERFECT SUBSTITUTE.

[ShownMercy]

cont.... And you Jesse, a learned man of the law, know that the Law doesn't reward you when you keep it. It only convicts you when you break it. Do you get a check when you do the speed limit? NO, you get a ticket when you break it. So a devout Pharisee, whom only transgressed the law 267 times his whole life, how will YOU EVER exceed his righteousness? For YOU have transgressed God's law THOUSANDS of times. Your up a creek without a paddle Jesse.

[ShownMercy]

Good grief Jesse. Have you no knowledge of what you say? Jesus said, "unless your righteousness shall exceed"... Do you have a clue of what this means? Do you know what it took to be a pharisee? For one, your FATHER had to be a pharisee. You had to be raised up in the synagogue and spoon fed the law on a daily basis. You were raised the in the strictest of manners with the toughest of guidelines. The pharisees were NEVER dope dealers, gangsters or hoodrats like you Jesse.

Cont....

[bibletheology]

@ShownMercy Jesus said that they appeared righteous outwardly but inwardly they were full of iniquity. Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed their righteousness in that they have the law of Moses that said do not commit adultery or murder, yet we have the law of Jesus which says looking with lust is adultery and hatred is murder.

[ShownMercy]

@bibletheology... And how do you count for righteousness? You have broken the Law of God so therefore your guilty. The Law doesn't have a statute of limitations whereby your transgressions somehow fall off in a certain amount of years. Your GUILTY. The requirement of the Law is perfection, and you have failed miserably. You have broken the whole law. All that is left is pending judgment for you. Pending judgment that will NEVER expire.

[ShownMercy]

@bibletheology.... And what of the THOUSANDS of Pharisees that died prior to the words Christ spoke? Who tirelessly devoted themselves to the Law of God, since BIRTH no doubt, meticulously obeying the traditions of their fathers. Will YOU exceed their righteousness? For they were not under the words of Christ before He spoke them!! Will YOU exceed their righteousness? Good grief.

Its easy to spot a man who doesn't actually believe in Christ, even if he professes too.

[KeithTruth]

Why were the pharisees only able to appear righteous even with their instruction from a young age Jesse? And what is the connection between their inability to be inwardly righteous despite life long instruction, with us needing to be more righteous then they who are from a young age prepped for this? Could it be that upon faith we recieve Christ's righteous standing and then those God saves get purified into new creations as a process?

[bibletheology]

@KeithTruth The fact that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being inwardly sinful, and for being hypocrites, shows that it was their own fault. If their inward wickedness or hypocrisy was not their own free and voluntary choice, or if it was inevitable and unavoidable, then they could not be blamed, rebuked, or punished for it. The Pharisees were free moral agents who choose to be sinners, while trying to appear righteous.

[bibletheology]

@KeithTruth They could have come to Jesus and they could have had real obedient faith if they wanted to. The problem was that they didn't want to, not that they couldn't. It was a moral problem, not a constitutional one.

[cainchristian]

This video is deception. The Corinthians, who were carnal, among whom was gross sin, are called by the Apostle Paul, "sanctified in Christ Jesus". Our state is connected with fallen, incorrigible flesh, and to consider that the holiness which makes us fit for the very presence of God is attainable while in that flesh is to demonstrate that one has not realized either his own condition, or God's holiness. "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.".

[bibletheology]

@cainchristian Jesus had the same flesh that we have and he was sinless. Before Jesus had a glorified body, He was sanctified. We too can be free from sin while in our flesh. We can use our flesh as an instrument for righteousness as Paul said. We can sanctify our flesh. We cannot have physical perfection (glorification) but we can have moral perfection (sanctification). But to say that we cannot be free form sin until we lose our body is Gnosticism.

[cainchristian]

@bibletheology He most certainly did not. His humanity was holy, but we are born in sin (Psalm 51:5) That is why it was necessary that He was born of a virgin - He could be no natural son of fallen Adam. Paul told us to yield our "members" instruments of righteousness, not our "flesh". We read that in "my flesh dwelleth no good thing". It is not Gnosticism, it is plain and basic Scripture truth. You do not know yourself, and you do not know Christ.

[cainchristian]

We are born dying, we all die because we are born in sin. Christ had no sin, and He did not sin, (a distinction which you do not understand) and had He not laid down His life as made sin, He would not have died at all. We die because we have corrupt bodies, as Paul could say, speaking of our "vile bodies".  Do you say that Christ had a "vile body" before being risen? That is blasphemy if you do.

[cainchristian]

It is a smoke screen to mention Gnosticism. Gnosticism has the idea of the inherent evil of matter and the essential goodness of spirit. Thus, mingled with a form of Christianity, one may develop the idea that the body is evil and must be evil treated, through Asceticism, flagellation, e.t.c. The Bible does not teach the essential evil of matter, since God caled all creation "very good", and it is not the doctrine of total depravity, since this regards the fallen state, not things principally.

[hsp2thend]

Cutting to the chase, either your sins have been 'paid for', or you will pay for them, yourself. The justice and holiness of God demands such a payment. Who paid for your sins? Who, by paying for your sins has reconciled you to God. If you are reconciled to God (the separation and alienation are gone), it is because Jesus Christ bought you back and you are clothed in HIS righteousness, HIS perfect obedience did not merit the wrath of God, but your sin does. No imputation, no reconciliation.

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend let's cut to the chase. Your sins are either forgiven or your sins are punished. If your sins were punished, they are not forgiven. If your sins are forgiven, they are not punished. Jesus provided an atonement, which is a substitute for penalty, which makes penalty remissible. Because of the atonement, God can allow our sins go unpunished. God can set aside our penalty, He can withhold our punishment. But if we need His obedience imputed to us, His atonement isn't enough?

[hsp2thend]

@bibletheology "but even after the atonement we are told to be ye reconciled to God." The ATONEMENT brought reconciliation to God. Our being "reconciled to God" is a matter of acknowledging and embracing Christ's atoning sacrifice, his having reconciled us to God by the blood of his CROSS. GRACE, don't you get it?

[hsp2thend]

I'm looking for a verse that says, "He who knew no sin, BECAME SIN,....." Is that in your bible? Christ's ATONEMENT became ATONEMENT when he took upon himself our sin, and experienced God's wrath, that we deserve. The implications of imputation are grandly depicted in the OT - the priests (representing God) transferring, by accounting (imputing) to the sacrificial LAMB, the sins of those who, themselves, deserved the 'shedding of their own blood'. They were sacrifices - by substitution!

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend Credible Bible commentators like Albert Barnes and Adam Clarke agree that to be made sin in that verse means SIN OFFERING, not that Christ became SINFUL or was the object of God's displeasure.

[hsp2thend]

@bibletheology No perfect lamb, in the Jewish economy, was ever personally guilty of the sin(s) for which he made ATONEMENT. They did, however, as a prefigure to the spotless Son of God, take, as God's appointed sacrifice, the death that the sins of the people deserved. ATONEMENT by SUBSTITUTION. That's what atonement is: The deserved wrath upon the undeserving. Christ, MY sin offering, MY PERFECT SIN OFFERING (SACRIFICE). Sin IMPUTED to the lamb. His perfection IMPUTED to the guilty.

[hsp2thend]

"Christ did not satisfy the wrath of God because God still has wrath after the atonement.... (snip)... But if Jesus satisfied God's wrath, there is no forgiveness. But, is God's wrath against YOU?" Does your Bible say "without (apart from) the shedding of blood, there is NO remission (forgiveness) of sin"? Satisfaction, appeasement, peace, atonement, reconciliation, propitiation, forgiveness, wrath averting - by "becoming SIN - FOR US". I, repeat I, call that imputation. You ought to!

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend Jesus suffered for our sins, making an atonement. But He did not become a sinner or become sinful. Jesus provided a substitute for our penalty (atonement) so that our penalty can be remitted (hell). The atonement makes it possible for God to TURN from His wrath (forgiveness) without dishonoring or weakening His law.

[hsp2thend]

@bibletheology "you are ADDING to the words of Jesus. Jesus said NOTHING of imputed righteousness." Didn't say that Jesus used the word IMPUTATION!! Alright then, you go ahead and obey (perfectly) in the HEART, or otherwise! Better to have something BETTER to pin your hopes on. Maybe a generous portion of 'imputed righteousness'? "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness...." - by THAT righteousness which is not our own. "Not by works of righteousness that WE have done.....".

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend Stop trusting in works of the law and start trusting in God's grace through the atonement of Christ. It is not works of the law that will save you.

[hsp2thend]

@bibletheologyif salvation is by works, it is not by grace. If it is by grace, it is not by works. Since the Bible says that we are justified by grace, it therefore denies that we are justified by Christ's works of the law being imputed to us. Grace is not without expense - to God. "God was, in Christ, reconciling...." God's GRACE is borne, conveyed, to those who savingly believe in the atoning, propitiatory, wrath averting sacrifice of Christ. Else, NO SALVATION - Peace by THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

[hsp2thend]

@bibletheology Jesus said that your "righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees.... you have heard it said of them of old... but I say unto you...."

Ah, hmm, that' right there is a pretty tall order, don't you think?. Don't you suppose that Jesus was suggesting that the only righteousness that exceeded 'those folks' was his own? His = mine, BY IMPUTATION. Else, I'm hopeless, as are YOU! SALVATION IS OF THE LORD, OR YOU DON'T 'GOT IT'! WORKs are 'because of', not FOR!

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend you are ADDING to the words of Jesus. Jesus said NOTHING of imputed righteousness. Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, because the law of Jesus demands obedience in the HEART. That is the context of what Jesus said.

[hsp2thend]

"to say that we need Christ's WORKS OF THE LAW to be imputed to us in order to be justified, is to say that we are justified by WORKS. But the Bible says we are justified by GRACE". How is God's wrath propitiated? By Christ's (and Christ's alone) active obedience. He did what you and I could never do - he OBEYED the LAW. Justification IS by works - just NOT YOUR WORKS, or mine. Saved by IMPUTATION, or LOST by your own "filthy rags".

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend Christ did not satisfy the wrath of God because God still has wrath after the atonement. We are not saved from God's wrath at Calvary, we are saved from God's wrath at conversion. The atonement is a means through which God can turn from His wrath (forgiveness). But if Jesus satisfied God's wrath, there is no forgiveness.

It is Jesus' obedience to the law which qualified Him for atonement, and His obedience unto death that saves us. Not His imputed works of the law!

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend if salvation is by works, it is not by grace. If it is by grace, it is not by works. Since the Bible says that we are justified by grace, it therefore denies that we are justified by Christ's works of the law being imputed to us.

[trafferazabu]

It's the way we move away from that sinful life. Romans 7 & 8 leading to 8:13...'but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.' If we are with our will stamping out unrighteousness in our lives, this is a dangerous recipe. We once again give sin a chance to work against us through the law. But with our minds on the Spirit, a sinful life will fall away. Still Grace abounds so condemnation cannot suck us back under the law.

[gomitch2]

Excellent! Good job!

[worshippastor12]

seriously, not only is the content of this video heretical, as a musician I'm even more offended by the annoying, cheesy, orchestral background music that is way to loud...

[Lysimachus78]

@worshippastor12

The only reason you are annoyed by this video, is because you cherish your sins. You love them more than Christ, and wish to not give them up. That's your only real problem here. You would rather Christ just do a paint job over your sins than to actually wash them away.

[worshippastor12]

@Lysimachus78 wrong. The difference between me and jesse is that I actually believe that Christ's sacrifice did something for my sin, Jesse believes Christ's sacrifice made it possible for HIM (Jesse) to do something about his sin. I hold to the Biblical truth that outside of the regeneration of the spirit, no one pursues God. We are totally depraved creatures needing a savior that we can not will by ourselves to find. Quit listening to the ravings of an extreme arminian and read the word.

[bibletheology]

@worshippastor12 Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sins, but even after the atonement sinners are told to repent for the remission of sins. Jesus shed his blood for our reconciliation, but even after the atonement we are told to be ye reconciled to God.

[worshippastor12]

@bibletheology where did I say we don't need to repent of our sins? Just curious. I don't remember saying that at all. What I was saying is that there was actually something accomplished in the atonement. When Christ died 2000 years ago he paid the penalty for MY sin, all of it. It is important for me to repent and obviously to try to resist the temptation to sin. But jesse would have us believe that we must accomplish something to be saved and that His righteousness can't count for us.

[bibletheology]

@worshippastor12 Are we saved from God's wrath at Calvary or at conversion?

[worshippastor12]

@bibletheology you won't like my answer but here it is. Because God predestined the elect to heaven, at the atonement was made sufficient sacrifice for all the sins of the world but specifically for the elect. So sin was conquered at Calvary but our justification lies in our conversion. 

[bibletheology]

@worshippastor12 after the atonement was made "for the remission of sins" we are commanded to "repent... for the remission of sins". The atonement made our penalty remissable, but it is not actually remitted until we repent.

[bibletheology]

@eleutheroo1 Jesus said that your "righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees.... you have heard it said of them of old... but I say unto you...."

[rustywolverine]

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(1 John 1:7-10 ESV)

[benstenson]

great video!

[hsp2thend]

Some major self-contradiction going on here! Listen to yourself, dude - you can't have it both ways. If by Grace, whose grace? If by works, whose works? Apart from the righteousness of Christ, you're TOAST. Without ignoring your proof-texts, I'll go with 1 Cor. 1:30. You had better 'cut that out', if it doesn't apply. You, guy, are on a very slippery slope if you think your righteousness has an ounce of merit before the bar of God's judgment. Very RCC! Keep working 'FOR' your salvation - NOT!

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend to say that we need Christ's WORKS OF THE LAW to be imputed to us in order to be justified, is to say that we are justified by WORKS. But the Bible says we are justified by GRACE through the atonement, and therefore we do not need Christ's imputed works of the law transferred to our account. Imputed righteousness is forgiveness according to the Apostle Paul in Romans 4.

[bibletheology]

@hsp2thend we are saved by God's GRACE through Christ's ATONEMENT when we REPENT. Not by ANY WORKS OF THE LAW from US or from CHRIST!

[jefferwat1]

It seems that you do not understand the doctrine of justification. Think of it this way: does a courtroom judge actually MAKE a person guilty or innocent or simply Declare a person is guilty or not guilty? In the same way God declares His children righteous by the blood of Christ so that in the eyes of His JUSTICE we will not have to suffer the penalty for our sins because Christ already has done so. In the sense of His knowledge of course He knows we're sinners.

[jefferwat1]

No true Christian can continue living in sin. God chastises His children because He is a good Father. "For Christ also hath ONCE suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:18). "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). Our righteousness is "filthy rags." We need Christ's righteousness.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 why doesn't the Bible ever talk about the imputed righteousness "of Christ"?

Righteousness is not filthy rags. The religious works of the Israelites were described as "filthy rags" because they were hypocrites. They were dead religious works. But revelation describes righteousness as white linens.

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology  The Bible talks about the imputation of Christ's righteousness to His people. It is not His inherent righteousness that is given to us, but that of His active and passive obedience to the Father. See Rom. 4:6.

OUR best works, what we might call righteousness, God calls filthy rags. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). All of our deeds are tainted by sin. "Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one."

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology

The only way ANY son of Adam can do a righteous act is in Christ. "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:18).

To claim that any human can do a perfectly righteous act apart from Christ is to lift man far above his station, to say even that he is equal in holiness to God, a blasphemous thought indeed.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 All men have free will and are therefore liable to punishment of their sin, but apart from the influence of God no man uses their free will rightly.

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology

All men have a free will to act and choose according to their nature. Our nature is sinful, bent toward sin and rebellion against God. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8). Notice that the carnal mind is that which has not been born of God, in other words, anyone who has not yet been spiritually reborn by the Holy Spirit.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 Men have a free will to act according to, or contrary to, their nature. Just look at homosexuals according to Romans 1. They choose that which is "against nature". So did Adam, Eve, Lucifer, and the angels. Men choose to be carnally minded, and they must choose to repent which is to change their mind. But it is against our nature to be carnally minded, because it is against our conscience to be self-centered.

[ShownMercy]

@bibletheology... And this strawman is easily refuted.. Has EVERY man had homosexual thoughts or experiences? Yet EVERY man has conveniently "chosen" to sin... Your fallacious logic is absurd.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 Romans 4 describes imputed righteousness as forgiveness. It says nothing of Christ's righteousness imputed to us. 

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 the righteousness which was filthy rags was Israel's dead and hypocritical religious works. True righteousness is described in Revelation as a white linens.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 justification by grace is when God forgives us (sets aside our penalty) when we repent and believe, because Jesus provided a substitute for our penalty. (His cross substitutes our hell).

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology When God forgives a sinner, God does not "set aside our penalty" but pours out that exact penalty on another, Jesus Christ.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 That is not what forgiveness or remission is. To remission of sins is to remit penalty. Forgiveness is when God turns form His wrath. Read the Bible more and stop listening to Calvinist theologians. The penalty of the law was not crucifixion, but eternal damnation. Jesus did not suffer eternal damnation. He provided a substitute for our penalty so that our penalty can be remitted.

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology

Forgiveness is a passing over, as Jesus is our Passover. However, in order for God to be "just and justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" God had to redeem us from the law of sin and death. Redemption ONLY comes at a price. That is why Jesus is said to be the "propitiation" for our sins. See Rom 3:21-28. Also "Without shedding of blood is no remission" -Heb. 9:22. Jesus suffered a PENALTY either justly or unjustly. God is just, therefore the penalty Christ suffered was exact.

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 the penalty of the law demands the death of the guilty. It is unjust to punish the innocent. But Jesus provided a substitute for our penalty, which accomplishes the same purpose in upholding and honoring the law, so that our penalty can now be remitted. God is justified in not punishing our sins, because Jesus was sacrificed for our sins. God is justified in setting aside our penalty, because an atonement has substituted our penalty. Our penalty is hell, that is withheld.

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology I think you just said the same thing I have been saying all along...

[bibletheology]

@jefferwat1 Does does not declare something that isn't TRUE! That would make God a liar! Does does not declare the guilty to be innocent or the innocent to be guilty! God declares the guilty to be PARDONED when we are converted to Christ.

[jefferwat1]

@bibletheology I don't think you understood my point. God declares us righteous and is just in doing so BECAUSE HE IMPUTES Christ's righteousness to us. There is no way around it. If you do not have Christ's righteousness, you have no righteousness at all. But you would be the one calling God a liar if you claimed that anyone could ever be justified or righteous in and of themselves. Have you not read "all have sinned..." You can't undo what you have done. Imputation by grace is the only hope.

[jwissick]

Absolute stupidity.

[4570sharps]

@jwissick

See folks, even an atheist knows a fatal heresy when he hears it. LOL!

[bibletheology]

@4570sharps I can see what you mean by the imputed righteousness of Christ being fatal heresy. If people think that God doesn't see them sinning, when in fact He does, they are in for a big surprise on Judgment Day. And if they think that Christ covers their impenitence, when in fact He doesn't, they are in big trouble with God. It is vital to understand that imputed righteousness in reality is simply forgiveness, according to Paul and David.

[rustywolverine]

@4570sharps I don't think that having an atheist side with you is best for your argument. When you have atheists agreeing with you, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness Romans 1:18, You may want to rethink!

[bibletheology]

@jwissick I agree. The idea that "God doesn't see me, but sees Christ instead" is absolutely stupid. What kind of a fool do they think God is?

[godrulz37]

This goes good with the myth of original sin (Overstreet). There are a variety of views on imputation. The traditional one is not biblical. How about not using KJV for accuracy/clarity?

[Briancranford]

Great Work Brother!

[astral400]

Thanks brother..... vital message. Gods blessings.

[skellys3]

Very well done brother!

[TheLordsWillBeDone]

May the peace and light of Christ continue to manifest in all that you do. Amen.

[demonsmasher2]

My brother you are a great teacher keep up the GOOD WORK and bless you