Again! I never said give up your personnel belongings. Thats is YOU insisting, that's what I mean ,when I say, living Freely of the land and sharing its recources.
You keep insisting we can't have Freedom without capitalism,that its a requirement.?
From who? Those that force us to live this way!
If someone requires you to ,is that Freedom? (I'm arguing people do best when they volentarily cooperate with each other.) No Duh! If you believe that!, why are you arguing with me.?
@thebestsumoeva. What my writings lead up to is, our lives are ours to live, to govern for ourselves, Not for someone to control,to have power over ,to deny and charge us for the right.to have. Which from what I read of your writings ,is your idea of freedom.
I'm not saying we don't need laws to protect us from those that would abuse their Freedom to Harm,steal,vandelize or threaten others.
@coolrayfruge do we need laws to protects from those that would abuse their freedom to harm, steal, vandalize or otherwise impinge on another's freedom? Laws don't seem to be doing a great job. Community on the other hand does seem to be doing a great job - take a look at the Amish. It's probably not the best example I know, given the religious element, but still the power which keeps the peace and maintains order derives from the community, not from the state.
@coolrayfruge I think you've hit the nail on the head. A truly civilized society, by definition, actually has no need for written laws. The only law a true civilization need follow is natural law. Children learn by example, their environment has an overriding influence on their genes. For society to be sustainable we must live in harmony with the natural systems responsible for sustaining our ability to survive--doing whatever possible to foster ecology rather than destroy it.
question about communism, is it be in opposition to entrepeneurism and free trade? is a communist band, such as The Coup or Propagandhi, that sells albums in a capitilist society hypocritical?
@EnergizerBunny804 No, Communism is not opposed to free trade, the definition of free trade is trade without interference from the government, it is however opposed to entrepreneurial intentions or actions, at least economically. With regards to the band, it depends on how you view it. They are surviving, and must adapt or potentially die. Technically however, yes. They are, by taxation of their product, indirectly supporting a government they are opposed to. There are other ways as well.
@coolrayfruge We live in a world that provides Freely the resources we need to survive.We have the manpower to produce the things that we all depend on to make our lives better.We have the Technology to make the work easier and living better.We have all the things we need at our finger tips ,to make our way of living in this world a Eden Paradise.Why must we allow our Natural Freedoms be restrained with money ,High cost of living,Taxes fees and fines.When we can achieve more without all that.
@avalsonline Say that shoe took one hour to make, you work one hour, get a registered card saying so, and you trade it for the shoe. I always laugh at this though, seeing how short of a time some things take to be made.
@avalsonline2 You're not thinking in the right mindset here, in this type of society, people would work for each other, greedlessly. Is that unlikely? Fuck yeah. So is every other ideal. The society would adapt to the wants of the society, usually the needs are in order. So if the society chose to have doctors hours valued more, than that would be the case, however, what is deemed as a lower rank job would suffer as a result. It's interesting, and pretty overlycomplex way to run a society.
@TheHerbulator but hte fact is that the doctor works a lot harder than a janitor. if we assign values to each type of labor, it would be extremely complex without some sort of currency. if all work is values the same, people would lose the motivation to aquire complex skills. forget about buyingshoes. how bout food? is one hour of work worth two eggs and a carrot or two carrots and one egg. i am sorry, but the argument is flawed and the solution is utopic at best.
@avalsonline2 No, as I said, essentials are supplied, also, as I said, doctors work would cease being for the money, and for the reward of helping/saving lives. "we assign values to each type of labor, it would be extremely complex without some sort of currency" basically what I said. "if all work is values the same, people would lose the motivation to aquire complex skills." that doesn't make 2and2 for me. Think about it. And if you're right, what a pile of shti we all are.
@TheHerbulator i am sorry, but it is the truth as far as economists and psychologists are concerned. people are motivated by rewards, positive feedback.
if one was to accomplish this kind of society, there remains a question of disagreements or dissent. people may not want to live in this kind of environment. in most communist regimes this kind of dissent has historically been met with violent reprisoals on behalf of the government. stalin did it in the 30s, mao in the 60s, Kim J IL is now
@avalsonline2 "people are motivated by rewards, positive feedback." Most are, but that doesn't neccesarily mean money. Obviously you haven't read Comm. Manifesto, or at least didn't pay any attention. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT IN A COMM. SOCIETY! And the intention of a Comm. Regime, is to liberate people. If they choose to piss off elsewhere and have a barter system instead, or money they can. (Or at least that's how I see it). Similiar to how communists live today. Humans suck.
@TheHerbulator i read the book. i also know that every so called communist society has had a ruller, one most often equiped with an iron fist. nowm you can say that they were not true communists, but i dont think a true communist society is possible. most, if not all societies in our history have had some sort of government. i think it has something to do with human psychology as well. people choose to live under a government for protection and for political voice. a people w/o a gov is rare
@avalsonline2 "so called" Now you're getting somewhere. "but i dont think a true communist society is possible." I don't like to deal with things like this, because it's not based on anything but "it hasn't happened yet." or "it just seems unlikely". " i think it has something to do with human psychology as well. " Very likely it does. "people choose to live under a government for protection and for political voice. " It's so ironic thought isn't it? That our political voice is always out sick?
@TheHerbulator " It's so ironic thought isn't it? That our political voice is always out sick?" it is a matter of degrees, ofcourse. i would rather live in the political morass of the US than in the 1984 remake of North Korea.
the absence of a true communist governemnt is not based simply on "it has not happened yet". it is also based on the fact that economics and human nature itself would have to be altered for it to happen. marx was smart and meant well. but he was a dreamer.
@avalsonline2 "i would rather live in the political morass of the US than in the 1984 remake of North Korea." Any sane person would agree with that, but many see strong Orwellian things in America. However, that doesn't mean that nothing should change jsut because it's better than NK, obviously. No, the abscense of a true Communist Government is because that's an oxymoron, and can't exist. "human nature itself " would not have to be altered, our "social nature" would have to be altered.
@avalsonline2 You have to be careful about what you call "human nature" and what is a consequence of upbringing, social order, social bias', social norms etc.
@TheHerbulator things that i have listed: positive reinforcement, need for government- are present in most if not all known societies. i doubt such uniformity could come from differing social orders, norms and upbringing.
communist societies that have sprung out during the 20th century, noth in europe and asia, have a lot of things in common. i doubt that this is a coincidence
@avalsonline2 I think that's a critical failure in thought to say we have a "need" for government, we may have a need for authority figures, heirarchy, etc. But to say we have a need for something that has consistently abused us is disgusting. (I don't intend this as a personal attack.) And if that is human nature, then we need to try our hardest to alter it, just as we would if it were human nature were something else we have an aversion to. And I'm confused by what you're saying here.
@TheHerbulator but thats the thing, government does not ALWAYS abuse. there are governments that are responsible and are afraid of their people. but with any good government comes continuity, and with continuity comes the morass, the filth. this also speaks to human nature, partcularly to its lack of perfection. and what are hierarchy and authority figures if not a government?
@avalsonline2 "but thats the thing, government does not ALWAYS abuse. " Sure, and neither do abusive husbands, they have their own moments of sweetness and caring, however few and far between. It's like living in a world where 90% of marriages end up in domestic violence, and then trying to make a case for marriage because its human nature. The continuity in government comes, or doesn't come from the people. Government is a machine. You're confusing the definitiojn of gov. it's astate not power.
@TheHerbulator yes, yes, government is horrible and they eat children for breakfast. i get it, you hate it. but please, show me a society without any form of government that hs actually lasted for more than a month.
@avalsonline2 As far as I remember there were many Spanish communes and what not, but it wouldn't matter regardless, because in all the cases I can recall, it's been states that have annihilated them. Somalia is also an example, but pre-existing conditions obviously didn't disappear with the dissolution of a state. More interesting however, is how blatantly threatened states are by stateless regions. Power is a very dangerous thing to be centralized.
@avalsonline2 Sure, Spanish Civil War, it's very interesting, and if you're genuinely interested, look up the Paris Commune as well. Sources not needed, its well documented, (George Orwell? That was a blast for me finding out he was involved, or at least I had read somewhere. You may want to double check.)
@TheHerbulator spanish civil war? of the 20th century? also, u posted something on my profile. i have no idea what ur talking about. totally out of context. also i could not post anything on your profile because i cant find the POST button.
@avalsonline2 Yes, of the 20th century. Scroll down on your channel, and look who I addressed it to. I don't understand why you couldnt to be honest. I havent touched it, alls i can say is scroll to the bottom (the very bottom).
@TheHerbulator oooh, yeah. creationists. clearly arguing politics is not my only forte. yeah, i was not the first to tell him the smae thing you told him, nor am i the last. when it comes to scintific proof and the true word of god, he would choose god. and god said nothing of evolution apparently. yeah, these kinds of people drain my life energy every time. very bottom? ok screen is black, my text message is black, maybe the submit button is black too on my screen. i duno.
@avalsonline2 I completely understand. As for the comment thing, do you see other peoples comments at least? Either way I guess it's bugged, I havent blocked anyone and it isnt a private thing.
@TheHerbulator i see the comments, yes.as for the communes, i havent researched it yet, but from what you have told me, i can olready see a weakness. these communities, if and when succesful tend to be weak, cant stand up to an assaultfrom apparent evildoers.
@avalsonline2 I really am baffled by that, did you think that the communes, under supplied etc. could stand up to a well supplied, organized and led army? And why look at them from a military perspective as opposed to a social perspective. The only possible solution to that would to be a military state, or at least a state with a massive emphasis on military. That's ridiculous.
@TheHerbulator because one of the functions of a government is to protect its people. this is why peasants chose to live under a protection of a king. even if these comunes had it all together socialy and economically, they could not have existed in a vacuum. history shows us over and over that the weaker states are constantly conquered by stronger ones. it is not ridiculous or inconsequential, as the demise of these communes had proven.
@avalsonline2 "this is why peasants chose to live under a protection of a king." I SERIOUSLY doubt that since monarchies were for the most part abolished. " history shows us over and over that the weaker states are constantly conquered by stronger ones." And the strong ones are torn to pieces by the weak ones as time passes, or destroy themselves. And what you've gotten here isn't an edge over me, it's the entire premise of the ideology, to get rid of states to get rid of war and central. power.
@TheHerbulator the monarchies existed, whetherin europe or in asia, peasants lived there under protection of monarchs and their armies.
get rid of states? in all the cultures accross all the continents for at least 8 thousand years, if not more, one of the constants is existence of states. if you can undo all that, you might have a chance at your reality. you would also have to alter economics and get rid of religion, not to mention major social conditioning. no ideology here. just fact
@avalsonline2 Alright look, just because monarchies protected their people DOES NOT mean they were neccesary, wanted, or good. They WERE oppressive and exploitative. I can't undo history obviously, so what you mean is can I undo the chain, no, I can't. I can't alter economics (I don't get what you mean here, there are economic theories that don't involve states and have more merit that statist ones you realize?) It's not my reality either. I'm not a communist.
@avalsonline2 I wouldn't have to get rid of religion because that's unreasonable to and the opposite of being free, I would let it naturally phase out. Major social conditioning? Yeah, obviously, that's what every revolution has to contend with and often succeeds in doing so. It's not as big an obstacle as you make it out to be. "no ideology here. just fact" Are you kidding me, do you understand how arrogant that is?
@TheHerbulator really now? religion has been a major dividing force among people and i doublt naturally fazes out, another one of those constants. something they canget violent about without a need for agovernment.
Facts: states were and are a constants. so is current form of economics. has been so for thousands of years? can we agree on that?
@avalsonline2 Religion was an explanation for natural phenomenon, and other things we couldn't explain at the time. As answers become more and more available and proved through other means than 'faith', and as education spreads, I think it kind of defeats the point of faith other than it's "feel-good" appeal. It's doomed to become obsolete, and eventually will dissolve, just like our thousands of other forgotten religions have. I wouldn't say religion is a constant but curiosity and answers are.
@avalsonline2 It's just an answer. Also yeah, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, people getting violent about religion.
"states were and are a constants. " not even remotely a fact if they can be eliminated and replaced by statelessness. Can you define our current form of economics? It really does vary doesn't it? No, it hasn't been so for thousands of years, we haven't always had a complex money system, and our economic theories are more or less recent. We don't agree.
@TheHerbulator ok, well, statelesness has not been achieved on a large scale, so can we agree that up to now states have been a constant. as far as economics,it is a mode of exchange based on currency.
@avalsonline2 I hadn't realized that you were being so vauge in what you meant by economics, I thought you meant statist economics, not all currency economics. Yeah, we can agree that it's been fairly constant. I would prefer to say that states are 'persistent' rather than constant, which suggests that they are unending and haven't been broken as a trend. States are frequently being eliminated, only to be replaced by another because that's the only option many know.
@TheHerbulator i defined economics with a definition most relevant to this discussion.
ok, now you have agreed that there may be a psychological need for a government or another form of rulling hierarchy among humans. you have also agreed that positive reinforcement, most often in a form of cash or other rewards have been ingrained in the human psyche. can we agree on that?
@avalsonline2 Both were relevent, and people use the one I said more often than yours, which you may as well call trading. I didn't even suggest that there may be a psychological "need" for government, I said that it's what we know, it's what we're familiar with, and what functions to a degree. Perhaps not ruling hierarchy, but hierarchy is programmed into out brains, we subconsciously understand who the dominant males and females are, even though its usually obvious.
@avalsonline2 Government and social hierarchy are different, especially in the ways leaders are decided. Positive reinforcement works, it just depends on what society you live in which determines whether its money, kisses, nods of the heads, handshakes, etc. We agree that positive reinforcement exists and works on the vast majority of the pop. I don't agree that government is a need, nor ruling hierarchy (but it depends what you mean), I think that social hierarchy is innate.
@avalsonline2 Also, it shows the biggest weakness of centralized power, that it's willing to destroy lives to preserve and expand it, and eliminate the "weak".
@avalsonline2 But the real thing behind all this is that essentials (shoes, cloths, food, shelter etc.) are provided by the society. Things like chips, tvs, would be more communal. Production and work for the people without malice, spite, greed, jealousy, etc. Doctors would probably work for the sake of helping people as opposed to money, while custodians may work just to be provided the shit they need to get by.
@TheHerbulator i amsorry, but this is fantacy. forget the basics of ecnomic exchange. you are trying to alter people's nature. ofcourse people are greedy. ofcourse they want material posessions. people with a heart of gold are hard to find. most peopel persue hard jobs becuase they pay well. if everyone gets paid the same, if there is no incentive for harder work, people will not work harder. its a basic economic and phsycological principle.
@avalsonline2 Ok, I'm not trying to do anything, thanks for whipping out the assumption. Greed is genetic, I understand that, and it's either become dominant in Western populations, or it's a social thing (probably the latter, haven't read anything on the former). Most of what you're saying seems to be a social thing, like monetary based work and drive, etc.
@avalsonline2 Sorry, I made a mistake, things like chips and what not would idealy be phased out and replaced by more nutricious and healthy food items. Tvs would be more communal. Thats what I meant to say.
@coolrayfruge backin the 1970s US attempted to switch to metric. the attempt was shortlived. too much confusion. you might use metric when making cars, just as doctors use it with medicines, but the truth is, it will not become mainstream in US that easily sorry. its been tried. we like the old royal system better.
This recession started when the gas prices started going and the cost of everything went up too. company's started letting people go by the hundreds,people stop buying ,because they didn't know if they were going to be the next to lose their job.
the lack of consumer spending caused more company's to let go more people or close their businesses.
@canaan1967 So then tell me why we have unions? Minimum wage? Social security? Government intervenes in the market in multiple ways and in nearly every case it has a negative effect. Social Security was intended as a retirement fund, but no one in my generation will ever see a penny of it and we have paid into it for all our lives. You have no grasp of how a free market works, you think companies force us to buy their products and the government protects us. Sadly the opposite is true.
@thebestsumoeva oooh, i can tell you why we have unions. same reason marx wrote this book. workers were being exploited. companies paid them very little. made record profits and fired them if workers demanded a raise. so, the workers went out and organised.
@avalsonline We have unions because people are greedy and enjoy using the government to force people to give them more money than they are worth. I'd support unions if they didn't destroy every business they ever touched and in effect got themselves all fired.
@thebestsumoeva no, we have unions because the big companies got rich off exploiting workers. and people got tired of it. if there is another way to keep the corporations from expoiting workers, do share
@avalsonline Simple, keep the government from stealing their money. A company can not make you work for them, but the government can take how ever much money they like from you. Low pay and unemployment are the results of failed government policies. Is it so hard for you to understand as companies make more profits so do their employees? It's a win win situation for everyone especially considering the only way to make profit is to meet the needs of someone else.
@thebestsumoeva no, a company cannor make you work for them, but it can fire you. oh, you dont want to work for 3 dollars an hour? well, your fired, i can easily find someone that wants to. oh, you dont want to work in such a hazzardous environment without any safety precautions. youre fired. without oversight, companies can also screw consumers. do you like your meat with flies in it? read the jungle by upton sinclair. read up on progressive era.
@avalsonline Well, no one would ever convince you right? Your definition of exploitation I'd imagine is very encompassing. Straight off the top of my head, demanding it. By understanding how a corporation works, you understand how to manipulate them. They need your money to survive, you don't need them to survive (necessarily). If you gather even 1000 like-minded people to spread your word, I think the chances are likely that they'll listen. Corporations must adapt or die. That's one way.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Yes I have and I hope it passes. I disagree about banning the fed immediately though. We need to ease off the fed by having the government taking back the power to coin money. They would then cut taxes and temporarily print money to fund programs until they have created enough to ban the fed. We owe way more money to the fed than exist and simply banning it guarantees people will lose their mortgages etc.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz We are off to a good start, the fed did cause the great depression and once again it was made by the government. The banks went bankrupt because the fed enabled them to loan out money that didn't exist. Once bank actually needed money the fed decided to stop handing it to them creating the great depression. A similar thing would have happened today had we not had the bailouts. We need to phase off the fed and I can tell you how if you'd like.
@thebestsumoeva so, what oyu are saying is, the government should have prevented the banks from giving away loans they did not have? more government regulation?
@avalsonline Government is the entity which forced banks to give out loans to people who couldn't afford them. Tell me what bank gives out money it knows it isn't going to get back? The only way this happens is when the government creates a company that insures bad loans and provides the bank a way out when the person quits paying. Couple this with the fact that the government began suing banks for not giving out bad loans and you have our most recent recession.
@thebestsumoeva government did not force the banks to give out loans. banks usually do not give out loans to people they think cannot pay them. but the economy was doing well, this time banks did, knowing that they would get their money back, one way or another, even if it meant goingto court. this is what predatory lending is. there is no law that requires banks to give out loans. banks did it to themselves. no eceonomy ever ran without some kind of governemnt intervention
@avalsonline Look up Community Reinvestment Act and then tell me who created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. After that explain what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac do then explain how they got the power to sue banks for not meeting their quotas. A bank will never loan money to people it knows it can't get back good economy or bad. The one driving force that can make them do so is the government.
@thebestsumoeva The Federal Reserve was created by the wealthy elite in our society.
The Rothchilds ,Morans,Rockafellas.
Name one politicain that doesn't come from a wealthy Family.
When someone gains mass amounts of wealth and power the next step for them is to go into Politics.
Our Government is run by nothing more ,than Businessmen running our lives like a business to suet their needs. The are use the people as their pawns.we have become nothing more than servants to the rich.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz The great depression was caused by government and this one was to. Open your eyes take a step back and look at the facts instead of ideology. The facts are stacked a mile high all you have to do is look and stop believing the bs coming from politicians mouths.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were created by who? I'll give you a hint, there is only one entity in this world with the stupidity to create a company who's job it is to buy mortgages it knows are going to be foreclosed. Name what was deregulated that lead to this recession, I'm really curious. Oil prices responded to inflation not private greed. Everything from 2001 to 2007 thats comes out of the ground went up in price including gold, aluminum, silver, palladium, etc etc etc
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Lets see here, did private companies spend us into debt? No they didn't, it was the government. Once again your almighty government has failed you and you still manage to blame capitalism. Thanks for being a moron and spreading your ill backed claims once again.
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Do you have any idea what happened in this recession? First someone says poor people need homes, then someone says lets take tax money and setup a company to insure mortgages so poor people can get homes. Then they expand this and force banks to give mortgages to people who they know can't afford them. Bank then collapses and candy assed politicians don't want to fess up to it so they manage the greatest robbery in american history and give bailouts.
The U.S. government should SUBSIDIZE medical school, and the better your grades, the more money you get, thats #1, #2 is we have to bring down the cost of malpractice premiums which directly affect how much a doctor charges, you should be able to sue and be compensated, but there should be "common sense" caps on how much you can sue for, like $500,000 for example. What could they do to you to deserve $3 million dollars?? lolzz
The problem with believing Socialism, Marxism or capitalism is a moral cure for mans desire to create servitude where ever he rules is rhetorical garbage..the questions that should be asked is which combination's of methodology create an environment where mankind's imperfections are weeded out or utilized best as not to destroy freedom of growth of any individual and which condemns man the most to servitude to a master or master plan. If one does not believe in justice one confines men.
World capitalism whether run by corporations or state monopolies is a system of wage slavery of immense humanity for the abstract process of capital accumulation and concentration in the hands of the ruling class. Capitalism a minority imposition of war,poverty,exploitation,enviornmental destruction,animal cruelty, a system of devaluation and destortion of our true human needs and creative potentials. We need to transcend this market mechanism to a world of cooperation for our common needs.
@arzoyan Capitalism has lead to the most peaceful years on earth and gave the working class rights to his wages. The past 200 years have scene more changes than the past 2000 due to capitalism. We have minimized death and human starvation by allowing doctors to work and researchers to research and free men to be free. Communism is a state of mind that has plagued humanity for most of it existence. It is the reason Kings and Dictators were created and has destroyed art and creativity.
@thebestsumoeva Tell me the last succesful company that forced you to buy their stuff. In a free market people can only sell things for profit if other people want those things. The only thing that can make you buy something you don't want is the government. IE we all just bought billions worth of GM when we don't want to because their cars suck. Hows socialism working out for you?
@thebestsumoeva It is not so much that they force you to buy their product.
As it is they make you pay the price they're asking you for it ,if they know you need it bad enough and they know it sarace in your area .Like living in a small town 50 miles from the nearest city.
With only three stores in it and they all charge the same high prices,the gas station is six miles out of town to get gas.And its a tourist trap for travelers so their prices are high too!
@coolrayfruge Reality contradicts everything you just said. Small rural towns almost always have the lowest prices while large developed areas have the highest prices like in California. Prices are based off supply and demand and no matter how much you believe it selling fewer things at a higher prices is not as profitable as selling many things at lower prices. You have come up with an economic theory and spout it off before collecting any real world proof. It's ok most stupid people do this.
@thebestsumoeva I base my theory from living in the real world traveling,I do not get my information from being cooped up in a cubical .
I lived in small towns,I.lived in tourist towns and lived in big citys.I've lived in.places like Sedona AZ which is expensive only cause they are a tourist town. City's very, like LA is more expensive than Bakersfield tax prices are higher. Its also about location. You get better business when your in the right location.
@coolrayfruge Yes location matters but they can't just pick an imaginably high number and charge people it no matter where they are. Even rich people will be turned away if they feel prices are to high. Your logic seems to indicate you would like to pass on price controls which in the real world have never worked. The only law needed to ensure prosperity is freedom and this is the only thing the government must protect.
@coolrayfruge I wish instead of havin people debating me or arguing with me and trying to convince me that it can't be done. I could find people that are creative and not so limited in their thinking.
Could you imagine if the right brothers listen to all those that told them that flying can't be done!
Why is it we can make great leaps in technology,but we can't come up with a better society to live in,one that would free us of cost and debt. Be free of any kind of restraint on our lives
@coolrayfruge I never said Capitalism gives us freedom. If anything I stated it is required for freedom to exist but it does not guarantee freedom by itself. From what you've posted it seems that you are trying to form the reasoning behind price controls so my question to you is do you believe we should implement price controls?
@coolrayfruge I agree Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best we have discovered thus far. I have no problem with people being ambitious and even arguing for change but if you could be more specific in what you would like to change I can provide you my opinion. What I typically find is people begin to argue for change and then all the changes they propose have already been tried and have been shown to not work so in light of this I ask for what you specifically want changed.
@coolrayfruge I read your entire post and I answered your questions. The only one not seeming to get it right now is you. I find it ironic that you blabber some nonsense and then claim I don't understand what you are talking about.
I simply asked for specific examples of your ideas and you brought up nothing in response. You backed into the corner and began making personal attacks for no rhyme or reason. Please use some reasoning in your next reply.
@coolrayfruge Once again state your reasoning and stop claiming a higher intellect. If your so much smarter then begin providing your reasoning because so far you've provided nothing.
@coolrayfruge How can you have freedom if the very fundamental idea of owning something is not protected? You have to have capitalism for freedom to exist but capitalism does not guarantee freedom it is only a requirement. I'm arguing people do best when they voluntarily cooperate with each other and your writings lead up to the conclusion that for us to progress we must first elicit controls over others. I am a strong believer in the untapped creative potential of man, all we need is freedom.
Show me a society that didn't suffer under the abuse of being ruled by the hierarchy of kings , pharaohs ,Czars and others with the delusion of being gods.
Early history show s that people once lived freely off the land as farmers and nomads tribes
They were forced into a life of servitude when they were raided and threaten and had their freedoms taken away.
@avalsonline Early man ,tribes consisted of family's
Nomad and farmer tribe community's.
The fathers of these family's were the leaders of these tribes out of respect by their children and grand children.
When you reached adulthood you took on the responsibility's of the adults in your tribes, you went hunting and gathering food with the other adults, to be shared by all in the tribes
You lived and hunted freely off the land back then
with any amount of shortcomings, communism still remains the only political ideology to replace capitalism. it is very evident, capitalism will fail itself, and will inevitably lead the world to oblivion, it is better we start applying communism and then talk of its shortcomings rather than assessing its pros and cons now. A rethinking is absolutely necessary.
well lets see, I think our professor wanted us to read and discuss this in class, for the purpose to understand how western civilization's government of today became to be. Like this particular document gave insight into some individuals mind sets. In any case only some of us read it...
Thanks for posting this, I have to read this for class, and I'm listening to this while I'm reading and I think it is helping me to understand it more.
Thanks for uploading this. It's useful information whether you're for or against it. I'm learning a lot.
Sounds like communists are actually against evolution in a way, particularly the idea that certain animals that wipe out other animals eventually spead and become quite populous, so that the remaining animals must adapt to keep from being wiped out as well.
Man, if we had too much civilization back then, we should all toss our computers out the window right now.
Do you mean people working together for the common good of all.Yes. people are the answer to the worlds problems ,not money. money is a dependency and a form of control over the peoples lives by our governments.
Giving them the right to deprive us of our Freedoms ,libertys. and free acess to our needs.
Throught debts ,bills, rent, taxes ,fines and fees.
Far as what went on in Russia,China,Cuba.
If you heard his manifesto .What went on in those countrys was everything he was against.
Money is to bartering as electronic transfers are to gold. Same idea, more convenience. I think you're really referring to the concept of ownership.
Trust me, no one is more of a fan of Diogenes the Cynic than myself, but I don't see any way to eliminate the idea of trade. Who's going to give away their services without asking for something in exchange? Communism relies FAR too much on altruism, which is sometimes present, but never in large enough quantities.
Why is it we can't function as a society without the need of money to motivate us .Don't we realize that the way we are living is only robbing us of our Freedom. and libertys.
Our lazyness.
Gives power to others control over our lives.
Its just stupid the way we are living . we are depriving ourselves of something better mostly the freedom to live freely.
@coolrayfruge do you remeber when US tried to switch from old measuring system to the metric system? remeber the confusion it created? this was a fairly minor change compared to what oyu are proposing. do you really think we can switch to a society to with no currency to exchange?
I recently have got into the Marxist theories, are there not any marxist demonstrations that take place? I live in London UK myself and want to become part of a greater number and actually try and make a change, where are all the marxist demonstrations? are they no Marxist groups that exist for conferences?
People think that you can't lose your property under capitalism. Yet the IRS and banks seize property everyday.
Through debts.
Most people can't afford their own property cause with the cost going up along with the interest,people who get a loan are taking a chance of losing it. when hard times hit.
Alot of us rent, not own our homes.
cause we can't get a loan.
We live under the rules and regulations of land lords.
@cubsfanforeverful If you support the Taxation of property and the the right for the IRS to confiscate property of people who oppose property tax laws.
then your the Fucking Communist.
I DON"T SUPPORT DEATH CAMPS you fucking idiot so stop accusing me.
@codeagent47 I do not support a slave base society.
People working together as community to provide the things they all come to depend on, benifits yourself as well as others. If everybodys working together volentarely and their are no masters.
How is it slavery?
Most things cannot be accomplish with out team work.
No matter what society you live in.
Providing it Freely takes the Financual burden off of everybody backs including You !.
I just realized today that, for me and my family, the only thing we have to look forward to is communism. Look at it this way, I owe thousands of dollars to hospitals in bills, how the hell can I take a piece of the "American dream" if a doctor visit costs $300 per and a hospital visit costs $1000 and up? It's meant to keep the working class like us in our current spot, anything short of winning the lottery will keep us poor, so we look to communism as our only answer.
Gee thanks, you solved all my problems, how stupid of me not to come up with that solution before! You should work for the government, your very smart.
@gman2000 how is communism our only answer? get off ur butt and go to work !
thats how you can pay stuff off. doctors get paid alot of money because of the work they do, however i dont condone 4000 dollars a nite to sleep in a hospital room. dont pay your bills. who cares.
freedom in america allows you to work harder to progress further financially. other countries do not let you work any harder than anyone else. this is so no one gets ahead of another person. socialism.
I should say, "...rather than EXPLOIT it."
AceObrin 9 months ago
Again! I never said give up your personnel belongings. Thats is YOU insisting, that's what I mean ,when I say, living Freely of the land and sharing its recources.
You keep insisting we can't have Freedom without capitalism,that its a requirement.?
From who? Those that force us to live this way!
If someone requires you to ,is that Freedom? (I'm arguing people do best when they volentarily cooperate with each other.) No Duh! If you believe that!, why are you arguing with me.?
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva. What my writings lead up to is, our lives are ours to live, to govern for ourselves, Not for someone to control,to have power over ,to deny and charge us for the right.to have. Which from what I read of your writings ,is your idea of freedom.
I'm not saying we don't need laws to protect us from those that would abuse their Freedom to Harm,steal,vandelize or threaten others.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge do we need laws to protects from those that would abuse their freedom to harm, steal, vandalize or otherwise impinge on another's freedom? Laws don't seem to be doing a great job. Community on the other hand does seem to be doing a great job - take a look at the Amish. It's probably not the best example I know, given the religious element, but still the power which keeps the peace and maintains order derives from the community, not from the state.
thetexandub 1 year ago
@thetexandub Right! It takes the people in the community to keep order.
Teach our children to take moral responibility's for their actions.
We as adults have to set the example for our children.
Teach them that it is our responsibility to get out and lend a hand to produce what we all need to make our lives better on this planet..
Sharing the fruits of our labor with the others.
We all share the same planet and it provides for us freely the resources we need to survive on it.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge I think you've hit the nail on the head. A truly civilized society, by definition, actually has no need for written laws. The only law a true civilization need follow is natural law. Children learn by example, their environment has an overriding influence on their genes. For society to be sustainable we must live in harmony with the natural systems responsible for sustaining our ability to survive--doing whatever possible to foster ecology rather than destroy it.
AceObrin 9 months ago
@AceObrin Thank You for understanding.!
coolrayfruge 9 months ago
question about communism, is it be in opposition to entrepeneurism and free trade? is a communist band, such as The Coup or Propagandhi, that sells albums in a capitilist society hypocritical?
EnergizerBunny804 1 year ago
@EnergizerBunny804 No, Communism is not opposed to free trade, the definition of free trade is trade without interference from the government, it is however opposed to entrepreneurial intentions or actions, at least economically. With regards to the band, it depends on how you view it. They are surviving, and must adapt or potentially die. Technically however, yes. They are, by taxation of their product, indirectly supporting a government they are opposed to. There are other ways as well.
TheHerbulator 1 year ago
My feelings are that if you already put in a eight hour day of work to help produce the things we all depend on and need in our society.
You've already paid your dues to society,there is no need for you to do more
And if everyone took the responsibility to contribute freely a honest days work to their community we wouldn't have a need for money.
Cause money is a IOU to pay off a debt and to keep you in debt.
Getting rid of money you would have no debts. or expenses.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge We live in a world that provides Freely the resources we need to survive.We have the manpower to produce the things that we all depend on to make our lives better.We have the Technology to make the work easier and living better.We have all the things we need at our finger tips ,to make our way of living in this world a Eden Paradise.Why must we allow our Natural Freedoms be restrained with money ,High cost of living,Taxes fees and fines.When we can achieve more without all that.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@azoyan well said.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@Avalsonline
Do I think we need to rid our selves of our dependency of money ,yes.
It has robbed us of our Freedoms, independence and has limited our liberty's to what we can only afford.
Most of the problems in the world can be traced back to money and the wealthy ruling classes running the governments and the economy.
As Karl Marx mentions in his manifesto
We are seeing how money controls the fate of people lives and how corporations and governments use it to rob them of their rights.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge if US could not switch to metric system, it could not possibly get rid of such ingrained concept as currency exchange.
how would this work. for instance, i want to buy a pair of shoes. how do i earn that pair of shoes?
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline Say that shoe took one hour to make, you work one hour, get a registered card saying so, and you trade it for the shoe. I always laugh at this though, seeing how short of a time some things take to be made.
TheHerbulator 1 year ago
@TheHerbulator work where? should one hour as a doctor be the same as one hour as a custodian?
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 You're not thinking in the right mindset here, in this type of society, people would work for each other, greedlessly. Is that unlikely? Fuck yeah. So is every other ideal. The society would adapt to the wants of the society, usually the needs are in order. So if the society chose to have doctors hours valued more, than that would be the case, however, what is deemed as a lower rank job would suffer as a result. It's interesting, and pretty overlycomplex way to run a society.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator but hte fact is that the doctor works a lot harder than a janitor. if we assign values to each type of labor, it would be extremely complex without some sort of currency. if all work is values the same, people would lose the motivation to aquire complex skills. forget about buyingshoes. how bout food? is one hour of work worth two eggs and a carrot or two carrots and one egg. i am sorry, but the argument is flawed and the solution is utopic at best.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 No, as I said, essentials are supplied, also, as I said, doctors work would cease being for the money, and for the reward of helping/saving lives. "we assign values to each type of labor, it would be extremely complex without some sort of currency" basically what I said. "if all work is values the same, people would lose the motivation to aquire complex skills." that doesn't make 2and2 for me. Think about it. And if you're right, what a pile of shti we all are.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator i am sorry, but it is the truth as far as economists and psychologists are concerned. people are motivated by rewards, positive feedback.
if one was to accomplish this kind of society, there remains a question of disagreements or dissent. people may not want to live in this kind of environment. in most communist regimes this kind of dissent has historically been met with violent reprisoals on behalf of the government. stalin did it in the 30s, mao in the 60s, Kim J IL is now
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 "people are motivated by rewards, positive feedback." Most are, but that doesn't neccesarily mean money. Obviously you haven't read Comm. Manifesto, or at least didn't pay any attention. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT IN A COMM. SOCIETY! And the intention of a Comm. Regime, is to liberate people. If they choose to piss off elsewhere and have a barter system instead, or money they can. (Or at least that's how I see it). Similiar to how communists live today. Humans suck.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator i read the book. i also know that every so called communist society has had a ruller, one most often equiped with an iron fist. nowm you can say that they were not true communists, but i dont think a true communist society is possible. most, if not all societies in our history have had some sort of government. i think it has something to do with human psychology as well. people choose to live under a government for protection and for political voice. a people w/o a gov is rare
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 "so called" Now you're getting somewhere. "but i dont think a true communist society is possible." I don't like to deal with things like this, because it's not based on anything but "it hasn't happened yet." or "it just seems unlikely". " i think it has something to do with human psychology as well. " Very likely it does. "people choose to live under a government for protection and for political voice. " It's so ironic thought isn't it? That our political voice is always out sick?
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator " It's so ironic thought isn't it? That our political voice is always out sick?" it is a matter of degrees, ofcourse. i would rather live in the political morass of the US than in the 1984 remake of North Korea.
the absence of a true communist governemnt is not based simply on "it has not happened yet". it is also based on the fact that economics and human nature itself would have to be altered for it to happen. marx was smart and meant well. but he was a dreamer.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 "i would rather live in the political morass of the US than in the 1984 remake of North Korea." Any sane person would agree with that, but many see strong Orwellian things in America. However, that doesn't mean that nothing should change jsut because it's better than NK, obviously. No, the abscense of a true Communist Government is because that's an oxymoron, and can't exist. "human nature itself " would not have to be altered, our "social nature" would have to be altered.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 You have to be careful about what you call "human nature" and what is a consequence of upbringing, social order, social bias', social norms etc.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator things that i have listed: positive reinforcement, need for government- are present in most if not all known societies. i doubt such uniformity could come from differing social orders, norms and upbringing.
communist societies that have sprung out during the 20th century, noth in europe and asia, have a lot of things in common. i doubt that this is a coincidence
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 I think that's a critical failure in thought to say we have a "need" for government, we may have a need for authority figures, heirarchy, etc. But to say we have a need for something that has consistently abused us is disgusting. (I don't intend this as a personal attack.) And if that is human nature, then we need to try our hardest to alter it, just as we would if it were human nature were something else we have an aversion to. And I'm confused by what you're saying here.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator but thats the thing, government does not ALWAYS abuse. there are governments that are responsible and are afraid of their people. but with any good government comes continuity, and with continuity comes the morass, the filth. this also speaks to human nature, partcularly to its lack of perfection. and what are hierarchy and authority figures if not a government?
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 "but thats the thing, government does not ALWAYS abuse. " Sure, and neither do abusive husbands, they have their own moments of sweetness and caring, however few and far between. It's like living in a world where 90% of marriages end up in domestic violence, and then trying to make a case for marriage because its human nature. The continuity in government comes, or doesn't come from the people. Government is a machine. You're confusing the definitiojn of gov. it's astate not power.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator yes, yes, government is horrible and they eat children for breakfast. i get it, you hate it. but please, show me a society without any form of government that hs actually lasted for more than a month.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 As far as I remember there were many Spanish communes and what not, but it wouldn't matter regardless, because in all the cases I can recall, it's been states that have annihilated them. Somalia is also an example, but pre-existing conditions obviously didn't disappear with the dissolution of a state. More interesting however, is how blatantly threatened states are by stateless regions. Power is a very dangerous thing to be centralized.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator spanish communes? i gotta look it this up. direct me to a time period or a sourse will ya?
somalia? yeah, not exactly a garden of eden, with or without a government.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 Sure, Spanish Civil War, it's very interesting, and if you're genuinely interested, look up the Paris Commune as well. Sources not needed, its well documented, (George Orwell? That was a blast for me finding out he was involved, or at least I had read somewhere. You may want to double check.)
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator spanish civil war? of the 20th century? also, u posted something on my profile. i have no idea what ur talking about. totally out of context. also i could not post anything on your profile because i cant find the POST button.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 Yes, of the 20th century. Scroll down on your channel, and look who I addressed it to. I don't understand why you couldnt to be honest. I havent touched it, alls i can say is scroll to the bottom (the very bottom).
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator oooh, yeah. creationists. clearly arguing politics is not my only forte. yeah, i was not the first to tell him the smae thing you told him, nor am i the last. when it comes to scintific proof and the true word of god, he would choose god. and god said nothing of evolution apparently. yeah, these kinds of people drain my life energy every time. very bottom? ok screen is black, my text message is black, maybe the submit button is black too on my screen. i duno.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 I completely understand. As for the comment thing, do you see other peoples comments at least? Either way I guess it's bugged, I havent blocked anyone and it isnt a private thing.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator i see the comments, yes.as for the communes, i havent researched it yet, but from what you have told me, i can olready see a weakness. these communities, if and when succesful tend to be weak, cant stand up to an assaultfrom apparent evildoers.
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 I really am baffled by that, did you think that the communes, under supplied etc. could stand up to a well supplied, organized and led army? And why look at them from a military perspective as opposed to a social perspective. The only possible solution to that would to be a military state, or at least a state with a massive emphasis on military. That's ridiculous.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@TheHerbulator because one of the functions of a government is to protect its people. this is why peasants chose to live under a protection of a king. even if these comunes had it all together socialy and economically, they could not have existed in a vacuum. history shows us over and over that the weaker states are constantly conquered by stronger ones. it is not ridiculous or inconsequential, as the demise of these communes had proven.
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 "this is why peasants chose to live under a protection of a king." I SERIOUSLY doubt that since monarchies were for the most part abolished. " history shows us over and over that the weaker states are constantly conquered by stronger ones." And the strong ones are torn to pieces by the weak ones as time passes, or destroy themselves. And what you've gotten here isn't an edge over me, it's the entire premise of the ideology, to get rid of states to get rid of war and central. power.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@TheHerbulator the monarchies existed, whetherin europe or in asia, peasants lived there under protection of monarchs and their armies.
get rid of states? in all the cultures accross all the continents for at least 8 thousand years, if not more, one of the constants is existence of states. if you can undo all that, you might have a chance at your reality. you would also have to alter economics and get rid of religion, not to mention major social conditioning. no ideology here. just fact
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 Alright look, just because monarchies protected their people DOES NOT mean they were neccesary, wanted, or good. They WERE oppressive and exploitative. I can't undo history obviously, so what you mean is can I undo the chain, no, I can't. I can't alter economics (I don't get what you mean here, there are economic theories that don't involve states and have more merit that statist ones you realize?) It's not my reality either. I'm not a communist.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 I wouldn't have to get rid of religion because that's unreasonable to and the opposite of being free, I would let it naturally phase out. Major social conditioning? Yeah, obviously, that's what every revolution has to contend with and often succeeds in doing so. It's not as big an obstacle as you make it out to be. "no ideology here. just fact" Are you kidding me, do you understand how arrogant that is?
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@TheHerbulator really now? religion has been a major dividing force among people and i doublt naturally fazes out, another one of those constants. something they canget violent about without a need for agovernment.
Facts: states were and are a constants. so is current form of economics. has been so for thousands of years? can we agree on that?
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 Religion was an explanation for natural phenomenon, and other things we couldn't explain at the time. As answers become more and more available and proved through other means than 'faith', and as education spreads, I think it kind of defeats the point of faith other than it's "feel-good" appeal. It's doomed to become obsolete, and eventually will dissolve, just like our thousands of other forgotten religions have. I wouldn't say religion is a constant but curiosity and answers are.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 It's just an answer. Also yeah, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, people getting violent about religion.
"states were and are a constants. " not even remotely a fact if they can be eliminated and replaced by statelessness. Can you define our current form of economics? It really does vary doesn't it? No, it hasn't been so for thousands of years, we haven't always had a complex money system, and our economic theories are more or less recent. We don't agree.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@TheHerbulator ok, well, statelesness has not been achieved on a large scale, so can we agree that up to now states have been a constant. as far as economics,it is a mode of exchange based on currency.
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 I hadn't realized that you were being so vauge in what you meant by economics, I thought you meant statist economics, not all currency economics. Yeah, we can agree that it's been fairly constant. I would prefer to say that states are 'persistent' rather than constant, which suggests that they are unending and haven't been broken as a trend. States are frequently being eliminated, only to be replaced by another because that's the only option many know.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@TheHerbulator i defined economics with a definition most relevant to this discussion.
ok, now you have agreed that there may be a psychological need for a government or another form of rulling hierarchy among humans. you have also agreed that positive reinforcement, most often in a form of cash or other rewards have been ingrained in the human psyche. can we agree on that?
avalsonline2 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 Both were relevent, and people use the one I said more often than yours, which you may as well call trading. I didn't even suggest that there may be a psychological "need" for government, I said that it's what we know, it's what we're familiar with, and what functions to a degree. Perhaps not ruling hierarchy, but hierarchy is programmed into out brains, we subconsciously understand who the dominant males and females are, even though its usually obvious.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 Government and social hierarchy are different, especially in the ways leaders are decided. Positive reinforcement works, it just depends on what society you live in which determines whether its money, kisses, nods of the heads, handshakes, etc. We agree that positive reinforcement exists and works on the vast majority of the pop. I don't agree that government is a need, nor ruling hierarchy (but it depends what you mean), I think that social hierarchy is innate.
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
@avalsonline2 Also, it shows the biggest weakness of centralized power, that it's willing to destroy lives to preserve and expand it, and eliminate the "weak".
TheHerbulator 7 months ago
With the "I don't understand..." thing, I mean why you couldnt post
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 But the real thing behind all this is that essentials (shoes, cloths, food, shelter etc.) are provided by the society. Things like chips, tvs, would be more communal. Production and work for the people without malice, spite, greed, jealousy, etc. Doctors would probably work for the sake of helping people as opposed to money, while custodians may work just to be provided the shit they need to get by.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@TheHerbulator i amsorry, but this is fantacy. forget the basics of ecnomic exchange. you are trying to alter people's nature. ofcourse people are greedy. ofcourse they want material posessions. people with a heart of gold are hard to find. most peopel persue hard jobs becuase they pay well. if everyone gets paid the same, if there is no incentive for harder work, people will not work harder. its a basic economic and phsycological principle.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 Ok, I'm not trying to do anything, thanks for whipping out the assumption. Greed is genetic, I understand that, and it's either become dominant in Western populations, or it's a social thing (probably the latter, haven't read anything on the former). Most of what you're saying seems to be a social thing, like monetary based work and drive, etc.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
@avalsonline2 Sorry, I made a mistake, things like chips and what not would idealy be phased out and replaced by more nutricious and healthy food items. Tvs would be more communal. Thats what I meant to say.
TheHerbulator 8 months ago
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coolrayfruge 1 year ago
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coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@avalsonline Ever been to a Potluck dinner where everyone brings some thats needed to the table and contributes it to the dinner.
Even company's you work for ,sport teams, even the Military, will tell you team work is the key to their sucess.
what do you mean cannot switch to metric.
Have you worked on cars lately?
we are using meters, kilometers
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge backin the 1970s US attempted to switch to metric. the attempt was shortlived. too much confusion. you might use metric when making cars, just as doctors use it with medicines, but the truth is, it will not become mainstream in US that easily sorry. its been tried. we like the old royal system better.
avalsonline2 8 months ago
@avalsonline What do you mean the US could not change to the metric system.
We have the metric system.
coolrayfruge 7 months ago
This recession started when the gas prices started going and the cost of everything went up too. company's started letting people go by the hundreds,people stop buying ,because they didn't know if they were going to be the next to lose their job.
the lack of consumer spending caused more company's to let go more people or close their businesses.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
I'd rather live in poverty and free, than in wealth and in bondage to the state.
ElConquistador24 1 year ago
@canaan1967 So then tell me why we have unions? Minimum wage? Social security? Government intervenes in the market in multiple ways and in nearly every case it has a negative effect. Social Security was intended as a retirement fund, but no one in my generation will ever see a penny of it and we have paid into it for all our lives. You have no grasp of how a free market works, you think companies force us to buy their products and the government protects us. Sadly the opposite is true.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva oooh, i can tell you why we have unions. same reason marx wrote this book. workers were being exploited. companies paid them very little. made record profits and fired them if workers demanded a raise. so, the workers went out and organised.
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline We have unions because people are greedy and enjoy using the government to force people to give them more money than they are worth. I'd support unions if they didn't destroy every business they ever touched and in effect got themselves all fired.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva no, we have unions because the big companies got rich off exploiting workers. and people got tired of it. if there is another way to keep the corporations from expoiting workers, do share
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline Simple, keep the government from stealing their money. A company can not make you work for them, but the government can take how ever much money they like from you. Low pay and unemployment are the results of failed government policies. Is it so hard for you to understand as companies make more profits so do their employees? It's a win win situation for everyone especially considering the only way to make profit is to meet the needs of someone else.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva no, a company cannor make you work for them, but it can fire you. oh, you dont want to work for 3 dollars an hour? well, your fired, i can easily find someone that wants to. oh, you dont want to work in such a hazzardous environment without any safety precautions. youre fired. without oversight, companies can also screw consumers. do you like your meat with flies in it? read the jungle by upton sinclair. read up on progressive era.
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline
The Grapes Of Wrath has a great description of the process.
Nezzytheawesome 1 year ago
@avalsonline Well, no one would ever convince you right? Your definition of exploitation I'd imagine is very encompassing. Straight off the top of my head, demanding it. By understanding how a corporation works, you understand how to manipulate them. They need your money to survive, you don't need them to survive (necessarily). If you gather even 1000 like-minded people to spread your word, I think the chances are likely that they'll listen. Corporations must adapt or die. That's one way.
TheHerbulator 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Yes I have and I hope it passes. I disagree about banning the fed immediately though. We need to ease off the fed by having the government taking back the power to coin money. They would then cut taxes and temporarily print money to fund programs until they have created enough to ban the fed. We owe way more money to the fed than exist and simply banning it guarantees people will lose their mortgages etc.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz We are off to a good start, the fed did cause the great depression and once again it was made by the government. The banks went bankrupt because the fed enabled them to loan out money that didn't exist. Once bank actually needed money the fed decided to stop handing it to them creating the great depression. A similar thing would have happened today had we not had the bailouts. We need to phase off the fed and I can tell you how if you'd like.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva so, what oyu are saying is, the government should have prevented the banks from giving away loans they did not have? more government regulation?
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline Government is the entity which forced banks to give out loans to people who couldn't afford them. Tell me what bank gives out money it knows it isn't going to get back? The only way this happens is when the government creates a company that insures bad loans and provides the bank a way out when the person quits paying. Couple this with the fact that the government began suing banks for not giving out bad loans and you have our most recent recession.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva government did not force the banks to give out loans. banks usually do not give out loans to people they think cannot pay them. but the economy was doing well, this time banks did, knowing that they would get their money back, one way or another, even if it meant goingto court. this is what predatory lending is. there is no law that requires banks to give out loans. banks did it to themselves. no eceonomy ever ran without some kind of governemnt intervention
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline Look up Community Reinvestment Act and then tell me who created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. After that explain what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac do then explain how they got the power to sue banks for not meeting their quotas. A bank will never loan money to people it knows it can't get back good economy or bad. The one driving force that can make them do so is the government.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva The Federal Reserve was created by the wealthy elite in our society.
The Rothchilds ,Morans,Rockafellas.
Name one politicain that doesn't come from a wealthy Family.
When someone gains mass amounts of wealth and power the next step for them is to go into Politics.
Our Government is run by nothing more ,than Businessmen running our lives like a business to suet their needs. The are use the people as their pawns.we have become nothing more than servants to the rich.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz The great depression was caused by government and this one was to. Open your eyes take a step back and look at the facts instead of ideology. The facts are stacked a mile high all you have to do is look and stop believing the bs coming from politicians mouths.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were created by who? I'll give you a hint, there is only one entity in this world with the stupidity to create a company who's job it is to buy mortgages it knows are going to be foreclosed. Name what was deregulated that lead to this recession, I'm really curious. Oil prices responded to inflation not private greed. Everything from 2001 to 2007 thats comes out of the ground went up in price including gold, aluminum, silver, palladium, etc etc etc
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Lets see here, did private companies spend us into debt? No they didn't, it was the government. Once again your almighty government has failed you and you still manage to blame capitalism. Thanks for being a moron and spreading your ill backed claims once again.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz Do you have any idea what happened in this recession? First someone says poor people need homes, then someone says lets take tax money and setup a company to insure mortgages so poor people can get homes. Then they expand this and force banks to give mortgages to people who they know can't afford them. Bank then collapses and candy assed politicians don't want to fess up to it so they manage the greatest robbery in american history and give bailouts.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
Sub in spanish pleace
almaconagujeritos 1 year ago
Marx is talking about globalization before anyone knew what globalization was.
41spencer 1 year ago
The U.S. government should SUBSIDIZE medical school, and the better your grades, the more money you get, thats #1, #2 is we have to bring down the cost of malpractice premiums which directly affect how much a doctor charges, you should be able to sue and be compensated, but there should be "common sense" caps on how much you can sue for, like $500,000 for example. What could they do to you to deserve $3 million dollars?? lolzz
gman2000 1 year ago
The problem with believing Socialism, Marxism or capitalism is a moral cure for mans desire to create servitude where ever he rules is rhetorical garbage..the questions that should be asked is which combination's of methodology create an environment where mankind's imperfections are weeded out or utilized best as not to destroy freedom of growth of any individual and which condemns man the most to servitude to a master or master plan. If one does not believe in justice one confines men.
chev39rsh 2 years ago
World capitalism whether run by corporations or state monopolies is a system of wage slavery of immense humanity for the abstract process of capital accumulation and concentration in the hands of the ruling class. Capitalism a minority imposition of war,poverty,exploitation,enviornmental destruction,animal cruelty, a system of devaluation and destortion of our true human needs and creative potentials. We need to transcend this market mechanism to a world of cooperation for our common needs.
arzoyan 2 years ago 15
@arzoyan Capitalism has lead to the most peaceful years on earth and gave the working class rights to his wages. The past 200 years have scene more changes than the past 2000 due to capitalism. We have minimized death and human starvation by allowing doctors to work and researchers to research and free men to be free. Communism is a state of mind that has plagued humanity for most of it existence. It is the reason Kings and Dictators were created and has destroyed art and creativity.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva Tell me the last succesful company that forced you to buy their stuff. In a free market people can only sell things for profit if other people want those things. The only thing that can make you buy something you don't want is the government. IE we all just bought billions worth of GM when we don't want to because their cars suck. Hows socialism working out for you?
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva It is not so much that they force you to buy their product.
As it is they make you pay the price they're asking you for it ,if they know you need it bad enough and they know it sarace in your area .Like living in a small town 50 miles from the nearest city.
With only three stores in it and they all charge the same high prices,the gas station is six miles out of town to get gas.And its a tourist trap for travelers so their prices are high too!
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge Reality contradicts everything you just said. Small rural towns almost always have the lowest prices while large developed areas have the highest prices like in California. Prices are based off supply and demand and no matter how much you believe it selling fewer things at a higher prices is not as profitable as selling many things at lower prices. You have come up with an economic theory and spout it off before collecting any real world proof. It's ok most stupid people do this.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
Comment removed
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva I base my theory from living in the real world traveling,I do not get my information from being cooped up in a cubical .
I lived in small towns,I.lived in tourist towns and lived in big citys.I've lived in.places like Sedona AZ which is expensive only cause they are a tourist town. City's very, like LA is more expensive than Bakersfield tax prices are higher. Its also about location. You get better business when your in the right location.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge Yes location matters but they can't just pick an imaginably high number and charge people it no matter where they are. Even rich people will be turned away if they feel prices are to high. Your logic seems to indicate you would like to pass on price controls which in the real world have never worked. The only law needed to ensure prosperity is freedom and this is the only thing the government must protect.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva Oh yes they can and they do.
My logic?
There you go again trying to pretending you understand me.
I don't believe in capitalism as being the only solution and I don't buy this crap that it gives us Freedom.
This doesn't mean I'm for supporting any socialist society or communist society.
I agree with you our Government should be protecting our freedoms,the of all the people.
I think we could and should come up with something that doesn't control ,our lives our freedoms.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge I wish instead of havin people debating me or arguing with me and trying to convince me that it can't be done. I could find people that are creative and not so limited in their thinking.
Could you imagine if the right brothers listen to all those that told them that flying can't be done!
Why is it we can make great leaps in technology,but we can't come up with a better society to live in,one that would free us of cost and debt. Be free of any kind of restraint on our lives
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge Its easy to be one of those that are negative, who trys to discourage others of thinking outside of the system.
Accuse them of being communist or socialist cause they challange the coruption in this system.
Any narrow minded sheeple that supports fascism can do that.
It takes creative people with guts ,not affraid to challage the system and move forward into the future.
And when you get enough people that are willing to try, then the can't do's will not stop progress..
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge I never said Capitalism gives us freedom. If anything I stated it is required for freedom to exist but it does not guarantee freedom by itself. From what you've posted it seems that you are trying to form the reasoning behind price controls so my question to you is do you believe we should implement price controls?
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva As I said I don't believe Capitalism is our only choice.
I don't feel we are so limited in our choices of living.
I don't feel Communism or socialism is our only other alternative choices.
I think we can do anything ,if we really put our minds to it.
We've advanced in our technology,why can't we advance in our humanity.
Becomea better civilization of Human beings than what we are.
Why hold on to the old past ways and not strive for a better future for mankind to live in.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge I agree Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best we have discovered thus far. I have no problem with people being ambitious and even arguing for change but if you could be more specific in what you would like to change I can provide you my opinion. What I typically find is people begin to argue for change and then all the changes they propose have already been tried and have been shown to not work so in light of this I ask for what you specifically want changed.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
Comment removed
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva Why don't you read all the postings, I left on this site.
I'm tired of repeating myself.
To those not smart enough to get it.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge I read your entire post and I answered your questions. The only one not seeming to get it right now is you. I find it ironic that you blabber some nonsense and then claim I don't understand what you are talking about.
I simply asked for specific examples of your ideas and you brought up nothing in response. You backed into the corner and began making personal attacks for no rhyme or reason. Please use some reasoning in your next reply.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva Its not nonsense! I've given specific examples of my ideas.
But for you to see it as just blabber clearly means your not smart enought to get it..
Then you start your accusations that I must be for this or that.
Sorry its to complicated for you to understand!
The simplist idea is always the hardest for people to except.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge Once again state your reasoning and stop claiming a higher intellect. If your so much smarter then begin providing your reasoning because so far you've provided nothing.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@thebestsumoeva Capitalism is not required for Freedom to exist.
There you go assuming again .
When did I ever mention Price controls.
The reason why you can't understand me is ,you think like a Capitalist.
You can't fathom a world not dependent on money!
All you think of is profit and personal gain.
Mankind can do anything if they really want to.
The problem is those that keep saying we can't.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge How can you have freedom if the very fundamental idea of owning something is not protected? You have to have capitalism for freedom to exist but capitalism does not guarantee freedom it is only a requirement. I'm arguing people do best when they voluntarily cooperate with each other and your writings lead up to the conclusion that for us to progress we must first elicit controls over others. I am a strong believer in the untapped creative potential of man, all we need is freedom.
thebestsumoeva 1 year ago
@arzoyan
You disgust me. How can you say such lies? You do know what happened under Mao and stalin?
TaqiyyaExposer 1 year ago
All Freedom is taken away by any society were a hierarchy rules.
As I said I do not agree with the ten rules of communism.
Which is in place in our society today.
I don't support death squads or reeducation camps.
I believe people should learn to govern themselves.
Freedom is taken away in capitalism as well.
Our society has proven that money isn't freedom.
Its just a form of control over your freedom. Fool.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
@coolrayfruge
you anarchist
TrollCatcher2010 2 years ago
NAme one freedom the death squads of commie countries give you capitalism doesn't.
Get off your lazy ass andn do something about your life instead of asking everyone to do for you/,
cubsfanforeverful 2 years ago
i aint askin
r u taking me for a commie?
your opening statement is anarchist, that was my point
TrollCatcher2010 2 years ago
@cubsfanforeverful First of all I don't support communism or socialism.
I support Freedom.
The fact is undeniable,Capitalism doesn't grant you freedom any more than communism or socialism.
Which by the way also use money as a form of restraint.
Look at China mostly the Businessman prospers in his country. while his workers live in poverty.
Just like those who work for minimum wage in this country.
Someone once said Communism is nothing more than big Capitalism.
I work for my keep. asshole
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge where in the communist manifesto did it ever mention death squads or reducation camps?
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline I wasn't talking about what was in the communist manifesto I was talking about what I don't support.
Like the Nazi German death camps and their firing squads in Germany.
Although Russia did have a prisoner labor death camps in Siberia.
During Stalin's reign.
Although I feel they were more Fascist than communist,cause they had ruling Dictators. they were still considered Communist by the capitalist.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@coolrayfruge show me a societ, past or present ,that did not have some sort of hierarchy.
avalsonline 1 year ago
@avalsonline We need leaders, but not rulers.
Show me a society that didn't suffer under the abuse of being ruled by the hierarchy of kings , pharaohs ,Czars and others with the delusion of being gods.
Early history show s that people once lived freely off the land as farmers and nomads tribes
They were forced into a life of servitude when they were raided and threaten and had their freedoms taken away.
By brute force.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@avalsonline Early man ,tribes consisted of family's
Nomad and farmer tribe community's.
The fathers of these family's were the leaders of these tribes out of respect by their children and grand children.
When you reached adulthood you took on the responsibility's of the adults in your tribes, you went hunting and gathering food with the other adults, to be shared by all in the tribes
You lived and hunted freely off the land back then
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
i have a question for all u commies
which comminist country worked?
wait i already have the answer NONE!!!
JOSH9606 2 years ago
@JOSH9606 If you base communism on the ideas of Karl Marx.
Communism never truely ever existed fully.
Cause Marx believed in a society without a Hierarchy,no one ruling party over the people.
We know that wasn't the case under Stalin.Lennin,Castro or Maeo.
Nor would any Capitalist society ever allow it to exist.
Yet these societys have incorporated and perverted, some of Marxs ideas to suet their purpose.
I see the ten rules of communism being use in America today! Look at our laws!
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
@JOSH9606 NONE cause none was everallowed truly exist.
Even though Russia ,China and Cuba were concidered Communist.
They all had ruling Dictators.
According to the Manifesto Communism isn't run by any kind of Hierarchy. Its suppost to be a self governing society run by the people.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
Money is debt.
Debt is money.
Keeping the people in debt .
coolrayfruge 2 years ago 2
@coolrayfruge so, do you propose we do away with money? am i understanding oyu correctly?
avalsonline 1 year ago
with any amount of shortcomings, communism still remains the only political ideology to replace capitalism. it is very evident, capitalism will fail itself, and will inevitably lead the world to oblivion, it is better we start applying communism and then talk of its shortcomings rather than assessing its pros and cons now. A rethinking is absolutely necessary.
youngdirector88 2 years ago 2
I was studying the Enlightenment society .
That went on during the French Revolution. They believed people should govern them selves.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
Another lover of death squads and reeducation camps posts,
Someone who wants to kill all non commies.
The first thing to go if the commies took over the US would be the free and open use of the internet.
cubsfanforeverful 2 years ago
well lets see, I think our professor wanted us to read and discuss this in class, for the purpose to understand how western civilization's government of today became to be. Like this particular document gave insight into some individuals mind sets. In any case only some of us read it...
PhillyGirl1 2 years ago
What's the name of the guy who is reading this because i need to cite him for an essay
iwantabj 2 years ago
Thanks for posting this, I have to read this for class, and I'm listening to this while I'm reading and I think it is helping me to understand it more.
PhillyGirl1 2 years ago
Thanks for uploading this. It's useful information whether you're for or against it. I'm learning a lot.
Sounds like communists are actually against evolution in a way, particularly the idea that certain animals that wipe out other animals eventually spead and become quite populous, so that the remaining animals must adapt to keep from being wiped out as well.
Man, if we had too much civilization back then, we should all toss our computers out the window right now.
theboombody 2 years ago
I understand what he is talking about because I see it in this happening in our society today.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
Is your recommendation the same as his?
theboombody 2 years ago
Do you mean people working together for the common good of all.Yes. people are the answer to the worlds problems ,not money. money is a dependency and a form of control over the peoples lives by our governments.
Giving them the right to deprive us of our Freedoms ,libertys. and free acess to our needs.
Throught debts ,bills, rent, taxes ,fines and fees.
Far as what went on in Russia,China,Cuba.
If you heard his manifesto .What went on in those countrys was everything he was against.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
Money is to bartering as electronic transfers are to gold. Same idea, more convenience. I think you're really referring to the concept of ownership.
Trust me, no one is more of a fan of Diogenes the Cynic than myself, but I don't see any way to eliminate the idea of trade. Who's going to give away their services without asking for something in exchange? Communism relies FAR too much on altruism, which is sometimes present, but never in large enough quantities.
theboombody 2 years ago
Why is it we can't function as a society without the need of money to motivate us .Don't we realize that the way we are living is only robbing us of our Freedom. and libertys.
Our lazyness.
Gives power to others control over our lives.
Its just stupid the way we are living . we are depriving ourselves of something better mostly the freedom to live freely.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
Well heck, don't tell that to me. Tell it to the world. I put in my 40 hours a week.
No need to shoot the messenger here, I'm just being a realist, not an idealist.
theboombody 2 years ago
@coolrayfruge do you remeber when US tried to switch from old measuring system to the metric system? remeber the confusion it created? this was a fairly minor change compared to what oyu are proposing. do you really think we can switch to a society to with no currency to exchange?
avalsonline 1 year ago
This manifesto is the best argument for capitalism I have heard in quite some time.
Aliothemage 2 years ago 2
Des Griffin-The author of---
Fourth Reich of the Riches.
This is a book that covers it all.
AKTMJ 2 years ago
the world has no choice but to except and turn socialism........
working men of all contries unite
askimakita 2 years ago
there are Marxist groups but there unground. idk bout da uk buts theres some in czech.
emoboydepressed 2 years ago
I recently have got into the Marxist theories, are there not any marxist demonstrations that take place? I live in London UK myself and want to become part of a greater number and actually try and make a change, where are all the marxist demonstrations? are they no Marxist groups that exist for conferences?
GeezaGooderz 2 years ago
THis book is taking you property and tells you how they will do it.
andrewrosso 2 years ago
People think that you can't lose your property under capitalism. Yet the IRS and banks seize property everyday.
Through debts.
Most people can't afford their own property cause with the cost going up along with the interest,people who get a loan are taking a chance of losing it. when hard times hit.
Alot of us rent, not own our homes.
cause we can't get a loan.
We live under the rules and regulations of land lords.
Where is the freedom.
Living off the land freely, is Freedom.
.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago 2
Indeed this is the truth. Where is the Freedom? Where is the promised plenty? All hoarded in the houses on the capitalist hill.
Commiton 2 years ago
ANother killer posts, Wants all non commies dead.,
This worthless pos goes around killing all non commies or at least thinks its okay.
cubsfanforeverful 2 years ago
@cubsfanforeverful
he's reading from a book, he's an upper middle class intellectual, he blatantly aint into killing people
and YOU are SCARY
TrollCatcher2010 2 years ago
Sorry death squad and reeducation camp lover but you only lose your property due to your own actions that you know will cause you to if you do them.
Stop calling communism freedom when every freedom is taken away under communism.
cubsfanforeverful 2 years ago
@cubsfanforeverful If you support the Taxation of property and the the right for the IRS to confiscate property of people who oppose property tax laws.
then your the Fucking Communist.
I DON"T SUPPORT DEATH CAMPS you fucking idiot so stop accusing me.
coolrayfruge 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Tribal Societies>>>>>Ancient Communal cities>>>>>Slave base society>>>>>Feudalism>>>>>Capitalism>>>>>Socialism>>>>> communism>>>>>????
codeagent47 2 years ago
@codeagent47 I do not support a slave base society.
People working together as community to provide the things they all come to depend on, benifits yourself as well as others. If everybodys working together volentarely and their are no masters.
How is it slavery?
Most things cannot be accomplish with out team work.
No matter what society you live in.
Providing it Freely takes the Financual burden off of everybody backs including You !.
ensuring our Freedoms are Free ,not restrained.
coolrayfruge 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Tribal Societies>>>>Ancient Communal cities>>>>>Slave base society>>>>>Feudalism.... Capitalism>>>>>Socialism>>>>> communism>>>>>????
codeagent47 2 years ago
I just realized today that, for me and my family, the only thing we have to look forward to is communism. Look at it this way, I owe thousands of dollars to hospitals in bills, how the hell can I take a piece of the "American dream" if a doctor visit costs $300 per and a hospital visit costs $1000 and up? It's meant to keep the working class like us in our current spot, anything short of winning the lottery will keep us poor, so we look to communism as our only answer.
gman2000 3 years ago 6
work harder.
swazidoughman 3 years ago
Gee thanks, you solved all my problems, how stupid of me not to come up with that solution before! You should work for the government, your very smart.
gman2000 3 years ago
yes really you have no right to say that to gman2000, i'd like to see what you do in his positio n, so be quiet unless you can help anyone
soadnairsoft 2 years ago
@gman2000 how is communism our only answer? get off ur butt and go to work !
thats how you can pay stuff off. doctors get paid alot of money because of the work they do, however i dont condone 4000 dollars a nite to sleep in a hospital room. dont pay your bills. who cares.
freedom in america allows you to work harder to progress further financially. other countries do not let you work any harder than anyone else. this is so no one gets ahead of another person. socialism.
unitedpopper 1 year ago