Regarding Mavaddat...Baha'i Faith and Homosexuality

[Passat3901]

It is a slippery slope to use quotes to gain advantage in discourse? We are all perverse, we are all shameful and we are all sinful from the lowest of the low to highest of the high! God is the Concealer, the Protecter, the Compassionate, the Abiding, the Forgiver! The writings are balanced. The arguments for or against, presented in this discourse are unbalanced. One side is upset by the words while the other purports to quote scripture and verse. Balance your words with the Love of God.

[aaronlee75]

@Passat3901 While your intentions seem noble, it is necessary to use quotes. If discussing the views a religion or social movement it is necessary to know the thoughts of the founders, and for followers of such movements to try to align themselves with these thoughts and values.

[Passat3901]

Is not God the Most Merciful the Ever Forgiving? Why is it that humankind cannot conduct itself in this manner of being merciful and forgiving in the treatment of others? For the ones we love we have a sin-covering-eye but for those whom we do not love we seem to allow our errant behavior to manifest itself! We are the leaves of one tree and the fruit of one branch. Why not let each soul answer for it's sin before God if those souls in no wise endanger the normal course of human society?

[aaronlee75]

@Passat3901 Indeed we must love all. As to those who claim alleigance to a faith, they must at least try to follow the laws of that faith. "Whenever My laws appear like the sun in the heaven of Mine utterance, they must be faithfully obeyed by all, though My decree be such as to cause the heaven of every religion to be cleft asunder." & "...say not which thou doest not. This is my command unto thee, do thou observe it."

-Baha'u'llah (sources: KitabiAqdas & Hidden Words)

[aaronlee75]

@Passat3901 In short if you believe in a religion, and know the laws of that religion, you should make every attempt to follow those laws...we are all prone to failure, but we all have the chance to continue to try. By trying we avoid hypocrasy.

[rabilek]

aaronlee75 - I believe that your video response to mavaddat's video blogs was well reasoned and fairly presented. Good job.

[raulramon2]

The debate over being gay and being a Baha'i reminds me of when parents are in denial. They tell you, you can be gay/lesbian just don't date anybody of the same sex. Kinda sad. Some Baha'is even go so far as to tell gay Bahai's to leave the faith which is like telling inactive Baha'is to leave the faith. Stop beleiving in Baha'ullah.

[aaronlee75]

@raulramon2 When you say you believe something, then you need to make an effort to follow those teachings. In the case of a religion it's not pick and choose. Granted we all fall short and fail to follow these teachings perfectly, and that is understood. We still need to pick ourselves up and try to follow them. If someone said "Don't do drugs; drugs are bad." Then they went ahead and said "I don't care, I'm going to do all I want, not even try to quit." This is simple hypocrasy.

[raulramon2]

He makes some good points in this video.

[2001adeline]

@aaronlee75 I didn't think you were (the author, that is). The presentation was bothersome to me personally. I momentarily forgot that I am no longer a member of the administrative order of things. No need to get my feathers ruffled. There are others who are better qualified to address you. 98.8% of the time ? Congratulations.

[2001adeline]

so, this is the latest self-pronounced representative of Baha'u'llahs vision ? I thought I'd given up with making comments in regards to this subject but, this takes the cake. Someone needs to reign this guy in. " A mother eating her young"?......please....

[aaronlee75]

@2001adeline It's something that happens in nature that were people to do it would be considered totally wrong. Hence saying that something is "natural" or happens elsewhere in nature isn't a good basis for a moral argument. This was an example that Abdul'baha used 100 years ago...I'm not the author of it.

[aaronlee75]

For both Baha'is and non-Baha'is

"Beware lest the desires of the flesh and of a corrupt inclination provoke divisions among you. Be ye as the fingers of one hand, the members of one body..."

"Amity and rectitud of conduct, rather than dissension and mischief, are the marks of true faith." (quotes from Baha'u'llah)

We shouldn't let one point divide us...ultimately we are each responsible only for our own conduct. Do as you will until then, but don't make one subject the point of division.

[PeyBar]

@aaronlee75 Your conduct is to perpetuate the myth that a homosexual relationship is nothing more than about the flesh and corrupt. You continue the prejudice against LGBT people inside the Bahai community and that I find reprehensible. The division is created by the fundamentalism inside the Bahai community. If all were equally represented, then division would not exist. It's easy for you to stand there and judge.

[aaronlee75]

@PeyBar "If an differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of on another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause." (Baha'u'llah)

Peace

[PeyBar]

@aaronlee75 Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality. Its operation must be carried out in all classes, from the highest to the lowest. Justice must be sacred, and the rights of all the people must be considered. Desire for others only that which you desire for yourselves. (Abdul'Baha - Paris Talks)

[aaronlee75]

@PeyBar Very true..."I have sworn not to forgive any man's injustice." (Baha'u'llah)

[PeyBar]

Respond to this video... When the Bahai community allows for gay couples with their kids to be members as EQUALS, then this little slight point that you attribute to desires of the flesh and corrupt inclinations would not be such a sore point of division. And btw, really classy misusing Bahaullah's words in this manner to justify the unjustifiable.

[fractally]

I am straight, but could never consider being a Bahai, because of the discrimination against gays, but more importantly, because they obviously are locked in to the words of one "prophet", to the exclusion of logic and compassion. This mealy mouth apologist is a prime example of how someone can spit out tripe just because his religion say so.

And its really too bad, because it is a beautiful religion, but if it cannot keep up with the times, and evolve as an organization, then it obsolete.

[PeyBar]

@fractally You are correct. But don't judge Bahaullah, but rather his now fundamentalist followers such as this individual. The Prophet's son said many things about how religion without science is mere superstition. Such as "There is no contradiction between true religion and science. When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is ignorance." Unfortunately the Bahai community today and its administration are stuck in superstition.

[aaronlee75]

@fractally A religion isn't a social organization or movement. Neither is it a club to join. It is seperate from the whims and fancies of the times. Neither is it for everyone...I'm not by any means saying that it is. On those areas in which we can agree, let us agree and cooperate. On those where we don't, then as I said in previous postings you go your way and I'll go mine.

[PeyBar]

@aaronlee75 Yes you said go your way and I'll go mine. But you haven't explained how your suggestion applies to a 14 year old Bahai youth living in a conservative Bahai family who is being told by the Bahai administration that their child can "overcome" their sexuality. How exactly does that 14 year old gay youth go "his way" while you go yours? Did you know that BNAASA (the Bahai organization that lumps gay people in with drug addiction) was formed because a gay Bahai youth committed suicide?

[PeyBar]

@aaronlee75 The religion that Bahaullah brought was to be an umbrella for ALL of humanity based in justice, in the harmony between religion and science. It was supposed to progress according to the needs of the times, not stagnate in the letters of secretaries of Shogi Effendi from the 1950's. THAT is Bahaullah's religion. Why do you make it out to be like the past religions? I thought this Message was going to be different. Is it?

[PeyBar]

I don't know what comfort you are deriving from a fundamentalist mindset in regards to the Faith and your sexuality, but to each is own. I just want people to know that you are NOT the norm. There are many gay Bahais who just live their lives away from a toxic community that does not want them, that treats them like they are diseased and need to change for God. Maybe you accept such a toxic environment as healthy for you; that says a lot. But again to each his own....

[PeyBar]

Also Aaron, if you are going to take a literalist approach to the writings of SE's secretaries, then you need to take a literalist approach to ALL of the Writings, including those of Bahaullah. For instance Aaron, do you believe that all atheists are dishonest and untrustworthy people? You should. It's the in the Gleanings clearly from Bahaullah that you can't trust atheists - period. But this goes against the principles of the Faith doesn't it? So which is right? Your literalist approach or not

[PeyBar]

Aaron, you are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. Other gay Bahais like myself believe that Bahaullah was speaking about sex with slave boys and that's it. We don't take a literalist approach to the Faith and no we are not picking and choosing laws; because there is no law against homosexuality. All we have are personal letters written by secretaries of Shoghi Effendi. A future UHJ may decide differently in regards to these letters. That is all that exists.

[AJatheistgod]

Baha'is laws are none of the business of non-Baha'is, just like it's not the business of straights to worry about what gays do in their bedroom. Practicing gays would likely not be Baha'is in the first place. Mind your own business.

[aaronlee75]

@AJatheistgod As I replied in a previous comment...I like the idea of "To you your way, to me my way." I was simply trying to some misconceptions by others with this video. To you your own way man, I'm not arguing with you there. Peace.

[AJatheistgod]

@aaronlee75 I think you missed my point. My point is that Baha'i laws are for Baha'is only, so Baha'is don't have any jursidiction over other the lives of those who are not Baha'is, gay or straight. People who are not Baha'i can be and can practice homosexuality all they want, they can even get married. Bahai laws are not or them. This mavaddat guy is nosy and needs to mind his own business

[aaronlee75]

@AJatheistgod I think I made that point in the video as well. As far as mavaddat is concerned, I believe we are in agreement.

[garyllyons]

@Aaron That is a good place to start. We are all responsible for our own actions so why does dogma (any dogma) impose on our actions if it is not affecting anyone but two people who love each other or just want to have sex? Is faith/god/dogma going to have to change because of sex between two people? No. So what is it? I have never in my whole life ever heard one good reason why same sex relationships are wrong other than ... religious dogma. Live and let live.

[aaronlee75]

@garyllyons As I think I said in the video if a person isn't a Baha'i, than don't worry about it's laws...take them as advice if you will, or ignore them as you choose. (despite the current anismosity towards Islam here in the west, I think the following is appropriate.) Surah 109 vs. 6 "To you your way, to me my way." vs 1-5 essentially stated that the believer and unbeliever didn't agree, but so be it. I'm not going to agree with certain lifestyles...but "To you your way, to me my way."

[PeyBar]

@aaronlee75 and what if the person is a confused 14 year old kid with suicidal tendencies being told by his parents that he needs to change for God? He is a Bahai born into a Bahai family; generations Bahai. It's not as easy as you go your way and i'll go mine. It's not that easy and you know it. Besides, shoudn't a religion where it's main principle is unity in diversity go out of its way to embrace ALL of mankind? Instead you are turning it more into a cultish click. Sad!

[garyllyons]

What difference does it make to you or your faith what a person does in the bedroom?

[aaronlee75]

@garyllyons to me or to my faith? In the end, not much I suppose. We are all responsible for our own actions. As for what difference does it make within my faith? For someone who is a believer it is a matter of personal conduct...something to work towards. If you're not a Baha'i it matters very little. Personally it's interesting to see where this social experiment will take the rest of society.

[mavaddat]

Aaron, I just saw this video. Did you post it as a video response? Did you want me to respond to it by video?

[aaronlee75]

@mavaddat I did in part post it as a response...but also to try to give a more rounded view to the subject from one Baha'i's POV. You can respond via video if you like...it's not necessary. Unfortunately you may have noticed that I'm not a great public speaker, and frankly this was my first posting on youtube.