Shugden followers. Your practice is based on Lama Tagpo´s visions.
It´s not based on Tsongkhapa´s teachings.
You believe those visions but not the 5thReting´s visions. Reting (the regent of Tibet)
followed his visions and found the 14th Dalai Lama. Reting was later imprisoned and murdered by his rival Thatag. A Shugden practitioner. Thatak became tutor to the Dalai Lama who was six years old.
What govt would ban a religion or a form of worship in a democratic country in this day and age. What religious leader would criticize or suppress a faith or unique forms of worship. This ban is the biggest mistake by the 'Tibetan govt'. This mistake will haunt them for the rest of their short existence. After HH Dalai Lama passes away, they will dissolve.
If you guys here believe in Buddhism, then you should know that everything that we have, encounter and the people we meet are all based on our own karma. What good is it on criticizing others? It doesn't gives you rebirth in the Amitabha Buddha's Pure Land, it doesn't aides you in your cultivation of the Six Perfections. If you have met bad people in your life, the only helpful thing will be to repent and vow that you do not want to associate yourself with the bad in your future lives.
If the Drakpa Gyaltsen's spirit (Shugden) saved the Dalai Lama, it did so with his own sectarian aganda.He's a figure like Osama Bin Laden,who may be a Muslim (leader), yet holding views that are unacceptable for Muslims, such as claiming superiority of Jihadist Wahhabism over all other sects and the killing of innocents. Even if he is dead right now, he may still be serving the enemies of Islam. This is the meaning of causing a shism in a community. Therefore I believe the Dalai Lama is right.
Perhaps if the DL had the courage to senselessly reject and even try to ban the propitiation of Buddha Dorje Shugdan before his successful exile thanks to the deity, this would not be a problem now.
The Dalai Lama was introduced to DS when he was in his twenties.
He was surrounded by DS followers when he grew up in the Potala palace (regents, teachers). He was unaware of the historical background of DS or its sectarian function. So how could he claim that the practice was harmful at that time?
I guess one can rewrite history but not the truth.Whatever the reason for HH ban on DS and rejection of DS help depends on whether we can see beyond the obvious or short term and our faith in the skilful means of enlightened masters which appear to be in conflict. Of course this is not so easy if one is the affected party. I agree injustices should not be swept under. But we should leave some space for reconciliation and mutual respect for the Lamas overwhelming good qualities.
@dharmapots There will be reconciliation when the Dalai Lama agrees to discuss the DS issue. Until now, all entreaties have been ignored. The Dalai Lama's qualities are questionable - if you check carefully what he has achieved for his people, the answer is 'nothing' - all he has done is make a good name for himself and collect lots of awards. I'll have faith in the DL when I see him acting in accordance with the Buddhadharma.
"The Dalai Lama has accomplished nothing" - it´s an NKT slogan, It´s Geshe Kelsang´s words.
Kelsang Gyatso and other DS groups started this smear campaign against the Dalai Lama in the late 1990´s.(That´s why this monk was expelled from Sera monastery.) DS groups are supported by the Chinese government. DS actvists have been involved in crimes and murder. Some kill for money...
@Varavaken Thank you for your comments, I have purified some of my harsh speech karma. If you check, you will find that there is no campaign without the Dalai Lama's harsh sectarian stance regarding Dorje Shugden, which is not based on any evidence whatsoever. If the Dalai Lama was not so intolerant and uncompassionate, there would be no basis for bringing this matter to peoples' attention.
This was an an intra-religious conflict in the early 80´s. Gelug lamas had long discussions before the issue was resolved 1996. The DS followers (a minority) formed their own groups.
But some were dissatisfied, so they contacted China for support. They have been collaborating with China since (at least) 1998.
I hope these Gelug sectarians have lost their former influence on Gelug school once and for all.
@dorje169 I've had to remove your comments again because they are defamatory and there is no evidence for the things you claim, unless you would like to post some. Sorry.
This is so powerful in the way that it shows how much Dorje Shugden has done for the Dalai Lama. Also, how loyal and steadfast this monk (and many others like him) are in spite of all the difficulty they are facing.
It is also remarkable that in the midst of so much injustice, these monks never speak a bad word against the dalai lama. That shows the true strength, practice and compassion of a Dorje Shugden practitioner
@honeydakini It is right to speak out about injustice. Just because the perpetrator is the Dalai Lama does not exempt him from criticism. It doesn't necessary show strength to refrain from critical speech because this can be motivated by fear or by samaya. There are many who believe that the Dalai Lama has given the Kalachakra empowerment many times to create samaya so that he will not be subject to criticism. If this is true, it is abuse of holy Dharma for political purposes.
@dorje169 - sorry, I removed your comment because it contained some hateful words towards the Dalai Lama. He's made a big mistake and is harming the Dharma, but we don't wish him to suffer, that's not the Buddhist way.
It was the Khampas who risked their lives and their families to bring Dalai Lama safely into India. Sadly, it is not acknowledged much nor appreciated.
a book written for westerners. I own that book. not many tibetans own this book and i have never heard in his speech about any appreciation and nor in your tone. i suggest you stop stalking me like the hateful clones you hang around with.
dalai lama is simply not agree from his opinon by his experienced wish less people will follow that rule.... dalai lama never say do this and that only he tink this really bad for each and everyone
as a Buddhist myself... i am greatly confused why the Dalai lama and the Shugden practitioners are at odds towards each other. i have seen both sides at great length explain why their are in the right but i dont believe either of them are right. I'm confused why his Holiness would abandon the teachings of his own teachers, but at the same time i understand his pov.. but i also understand the pov of the Shugdens...
@lamrimeater To me, i dont think is appropriate for the Dalai lama to say these things unless there is evidence that supports his claims and is presented in a peaceful form to the Shugdens.. but its a Catch -22... you can't tell someone else is wrong to believe or practice anything.. including this... its funny how Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai lama's texts were my first experience with Buddhism.. i deeply respect them both.
Yes, all the monks on both sides of the controversy are innocent pawns. They are led by the nose and mindwashed into blowing up the Shugden controversy by the Chinese... Wow, they must be the foremost intelligent country in the world.
@pat2698 It's not the Chinese that have caused this, its the Dalai Lama trying to destroy an age-old spiritual practice with no apparently rational explanation.
Yes, I know, everyone wants to blame the Chinese for all their ills. This is 100% an internal Tibethan political issue. And recognising it is the very first step. The monks are being embroiled in their leaders political issues.
it is very convenient excuse for them to blame everything on China and Chinese. In every controversy and conflict, it is the chinese in the middle. this excuse is getting too lame now.
Most young Shugden monks in in India are NOT Tibetan refugees. They have CHINESE PASSPORTS. They are loyal to the Chinese Communist Party, not to the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan exile community...
the notorious anti-Tibetan chineseheart has exposed the entire 50 Cent Party operation, by proving there IS a whole team, that team IS working for someone.
"we" = a team
"not supposed to" = indicates obligation to a boss
See my profile if you want to look at the screen shot of chineseheart saying this.
"In an order dated April 5, 2010, Justice S. Muralidhar dismissed the writ petition and application on the grounds that the allegations of violence and harassment were vague averments and that the raised issues do not partake of any public law character and therefore are not justiciable in proceedings under Article 226 of the Constitution.
Citing the absence of any specific instances of any such attacks on Dorjee Shugden practitioners, ..."
@Varavaken Because the Abbots didn't want to give up the practice and neither did the monks. The Dalai Lama forced them to do so by threatening to remove the Abbots unless they did something to enforced the ban. The Dalai Lama was ineffective in stopping the practice in the monasteries until 2008.
Why did the Shugden monks cause so much problems in their monasteries?
Why did they try to enforce their practice on other monks? Did they follow instructions from China? If they had practiced peacefully I´m sure the practice would still be allowed.
@Varavaken This is just propaganda by the CTA to justify expelling the monks from their monasteries and to fulfil the Dalai Lama's wishes. None of this happened.
There are reliable eye witnesses. One of them is the monk Lobsang Jangchub (Sera), he saw what went on (he stayed at Sera for two years). But why do I bother, you only listen to your own sources. You are not interested in the truth. You are a propagandist.
@Varavaken I have not heard any reports that the Shugden monks caused any problems or disruptions within the monasteries. They simply wished to continue their practice, so they decided to break away. But it wasn't done aggressively or with any problems towards the other monks of the monasteries.
If you go to "Tibetan Buddhism goes West" you can read about the monk Lobsang Jangchub, a witness of the events in Sera monastery (India). It´s quite outrageous.
- DS continues to NOT be subjugated by any ritual.
- DS continues to NOT shorten HHDL life.
- DS continues to NOT receive money from Chinese government.
- DS continues to NOT be the cause for Tibet being lost.
How many more years before everyone sees the truth for what it is. Actions made now may not be the truth 1 month, 2 months from now. We will all see soon enoughl
The main concern for people who are not interested in politics is not whether or not Shugden is against the cause of Tibet, but rather this practice has been given by their holy teacher and they wanted to practice it. It has nothing to do with whether they are Chinese or Tibetans nor their political inclination.
All we want and hope for is for the silly Ban to be lifted because what good did it bring except more disharmony, divisions, ppl and monks forced to stop their practice out of fear they will be ostracized and violently abused. Just like those monks being attacked in Sep 9th 2000 outside Gaden. That is repulsive and totally against any law.
Why don´t you tell us about the activities of "Kundeling" and his Shugden followers?
Murder, coercion and intimidation. And financial support from China. Tell us about the Chinese government´s infiltration. It´s been going on since 1999. Political traitors are not heroes.
@Varavaken I can't tell you cos there is nothing to tell. I don't personally know Kundeling Rinpoche except he speaks very logically and the whole world is watching. Base on logic, your reasons, evidence and excuses for the Ban comes very weak. Perhaps a normal nomad Tibetan person would easily accept those reasons but not the world who are educated and use their heads to think. It's just pure common sense.
Has Dharma become so degenerate that even a simple truth is being denied. This video clearly shows a monk testifying who helped the Dalai Lama escaped. Now where was Nechung at that time?
Now there are many times that Nechung has given wrong prophesies and prediction. Why do you guys continue relying on him and instead you even build monasteries under his name? This seems strange as the Dalai Lama says not to worship "spirit". Isn't He a "spirit" or did we get that wrong also in your books?
I have never heard of Nechung worship. Nobody takes refuge in Nechung. But Shugden people take refuge in a worldly deity.
There is no longer Shugden practice in the Gelug monasteries, but I´m not sure it´s correct to call it a "ban". It´s not prohibited. Lay people can practice and Shugden monks have their own monasteries. If you want to know about a real ban, learn about Falun Gong in China.
And stop spamming another person's account, that is not Vinayaholder. Funny it just shows that pro Dalai Lama supporter wld go this low and spam on other ppl's account. I wouldn't be surprised that the whole entire history on DS is probably rewritten, twisted to suite your political agendas. Sad.
i live in tibetan society too and i have never ever seen or heard anyone torturing any people and why is that some of the videos i cannot comment weather it is right or wrong and the if some1 says dat there are being outcasted i seriously know that they are outcasted by their own will nobody push them around and did n e thing to them and the some videos you might had seen in youtube here are about monks not allowed to shop in some stores or stuff are all drama seriously omg hope peace for them
"If one chooses to fly in the face of all the reasoning and still get involved in this form of worship, there is nothing that anyone can do about it. Whatever form of spirit worship one wants to do, it is up to oneself. Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, "I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you". HHDL 6 DEC 2000
That's right! Dorje Shugden save Dalai Lama's life.
Both Je Tsongkhapa (peaceful Manjushri) and Dorje Shugden (wrathful Manjushri) are manifestations of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, as are the Dharma Protectors four-faced Mahakala and Kalarupa. Therefore, they are all the same enlightened nature.
Just look at the great new DS monasteries such as Serpom and Shar Gaden monasteries which are flourishing in spite of all the difficulty. And new generations of Lamas such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Gangchen Rinpoche who are bringing dharma to so many thousands of people all over the world. This is incredible courage and strength during difficult times that show what Dorje Shugden is really all about.
it is quite sad to see how much DS practitioners are suffering - the ostracism, attacks and being totally denied any welfare from the tibetan government.
However, what is inspiring is to see how strong they remain in their practice and with such great faith. In spite of the difficulty, they persevere in their practice, remain committed to Dorje Shugden and their Lamas and continue to build anew.
@vinayahoIder yeah, yeah, same old accusations. No one can tell the truth about the Dalai Lama without being accused of being a Chinese spy. It's a very old, hackneyed form of defence. You just can't accept the truth on this issue.
There has to be something wrong from their side when they stress so much this forging of a relationship, but you can't actually meet Gyatso and talk to him! At Samye Ling, which I visited often at one time, the lamas came down to the kitchen and had a coffee quite often with the residents. Other groups I have been to their top brass is approachable at most reasonable times. KG is a recluse and the people around him are sycophants.
Also funny how you guys (well, you one guy) always reference hearsay and "articles" about a "ban," but never cite personal experience. I have personal experience attending the teachings, and there is no ban.
@vinayahoIder How would you know that's there's no ban on Dorje Shugden practitioners attending the Dalai Lama's teachings? They don't wear round yellow hats, you know! He has himself asked Shugden practitioners not to attend his teachings and there is so much documentary evidence for the ban on Shugden, to claim otherwise is like trying to claim that the Earth is flat!
Funny how Dorje Shugden never became an issue until the Zhōnggòng Zhōngyāng Xuānchuánbù (Propaganda Department) made it one - particularly after the spanking-new Bureau of Public Opinion (Jesus, Mary and Joseph - it's almost too funny to take seriously) was formed in 2004.
@vinayahoIder This is simply incorrect. The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden an issue by stopping the practice in 1978 for erroneous reasons, by publicly banning it in 1996 and introducing an enforced signature campaign to force people to give up the practice. He then re-ignited the conflict by expelling 900 Shugden monks from their monasteries in 2008. The 'Dorje Shugden Controversy' is the creation of the Dalai Lama. These are the facts.
Nice play-by-play from the Propaganda Office memo. Your guys are making more and more mistakes though - like showing up on pre-fab "Shugden" sites and accidentally posting in Chinese, like having the guys with poor English (no offense, just pointing it out) make posts that are obviously from a mainlander, and not to mention PM-ing each other in Chinese.
The biggest mistake of all was hiring you-know-who to be the gwaipo "TV nun." Her brother's ties to NKT are too open.
The Dalai Lama is fully supported in his view by the monastic communities.
China has been sending Shugden monks to India to destabilize the Tibetan community. The self-proclaimed Lama "Kundeling" and his followers in Delhi have been conspireing with China since 1999.
That´s the truth, Lineageholder. But you´re not interested in the truth.
The Dalai Lama stopped his own practice 1976 and he spoke against it. There was no ban.
The Dalai Lama tells the monasteries what to think and they think it. He has complete power over them, so of course they do what he says, otherwise there is trouble. It's not a democracy, you know!
I am interested in the truth. The truth is the Dalai Lama banned the practice of Dorje Shugden. There was no ban in 1976, but there has been since 1996. Today is the 14th anniversary of the ban. This is the truth.
that's not to say that the enlightened beings would do anything to us but it is "dangerous" from our side to criticise lamas and practices because we open up in our minds the tendency to always judge, criticise and nitpick. Then we never get anywhere in our practice. And the demerit of criticising sangha is also huge, which can hinder our spiritual progress.
We shud aim to follow the advice of our teachers, practice quietly, peacefully n show a good example of Dharma
Thats that danger, some people are naturally inquisitive, others are just damn right lazy, give me the details, i don't need to dig any deeper, at least there is a great resource online at dorjeshugden *dot* com. I found all I need to clear my doubts there, and also I got to ask my questions that noone could answer, at least with something that made perfect sense.
@DharmaDefender your points are valid... I would be sick of it buddhism too if i were a newbie, its like the scandal with priests and little boys, now its like the pope declaring a ban on people praying to mother mary. Without the insights into buddhism and the focus on logic and debate i'm afraid many people will just take a glance and be turned off the Dharma Path.
Attained enlightened minds do not squabble with each other, instead mutual humility, respect and kindness is shown. These are the real Dharma.
Since the rise of this controversy, I have never heard high Lama like Dilgo Kyentse utter a single world that is negative of Dorje Shugden or HHDL. Beings like this show us true Dharma practice and beyond politics.
I came across this article of how HH Penor Rinpoche was unbiased and sympathetic towards Dorje Shugden monks due to the ban and he opened up Namdroling for these monks to get supplies. It really is inspiring and uplifting to read this article... bit [.] ly [/] cbARTJ
Yes Very interesting article on how HH Penor Rinpoche showed compassion to DS practitioners.
He show us Dharma is above and beyond political agendas. Love, Compassion and kindness is higher then political agendas.
ALL enlightened minds are the same - compassionate and kind. Another interesting article is on the previous Pancehn Rinpoche meeting with HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche. Panchen Rinpoche practice DS, there were not issues between the 2 leaders.
There are interesting theories why the Dalai Lama is so contradictory. It can be interpreted that the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture at hand (Ive read some interesting perspectives from the website dorjeshugden-dot-com) which works out to be quite logical when we think deeper about it. For example, it was said that the controversy would make Dorje Shugden better known than the efforts of all DS practitioners, which has really come true.
This is a wrong view because the Dalai Lama's action has resulted in a decrease in Shugden practice and practitioners, vilification of great Lamas such as Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Dorjechang, the degeneration of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition into petty politics and witchhunts and a schism in the Sangha. There is no bigger plan, only the annihilation of the pure Buddhadharma by ignorance in this degenerate age, led by someone who pretends to be the upholder of it. Shame!
Actually, I would disagree with that because the Dalai Lama can say one thing, but it is up to the individual to enact it. Therefore his words may have been 'ban Dorje Shugden' but the ACTIVE vilification of great lamas and degeneration of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition is the result of practitioners NOT following the teachings. If practice is a personal choice, so is everything else we do. The ban may have resulted in a decrease within the Tibetan community but outside it, it is growing stronger.
Actually come to think of it even Dorje Shugden himself (when invoked through an oracle) have never advice anything negative toward HHDL instead the advice given has been the opposite.
Instead He has asked us to respect HHDL and to not loose faith in him. I wonder what that may mean?
Could it be that HHDL is indirectly promoting Dorje Shugden to the world via China since samsara feeds on political controversies???
Actually when we look at all the high Lamas who are still practicing Dorje Shugden, e.g. Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche's. We can gain much strength and inspiration from their attitude towards this controversy.
Even though the still practice and does not abide by the Ban, they also do not say anything negative about HHDL. Like Bodhisattvas they remain peaceful no matter how much negative criticsm they receive.
Shugden practitioners were asked not to attend the Dalai Lama's teachings in Bodh Gaya. I tried to post a link to prove this, but YouTube won't accept any links to be posted. To find it, search for 'Dalai Lama arrives in Bodh Gaya for teachings, prayers' on the Tibet Sun website. The Dalai Lama himself is on record asking Shugden practitioners not to come to his teachings.
The Dalai Lama himself has used the word 'ban' in connection with Dorje Shugden, therefore your assertion is incorrect.
@Lineageholder Yes i have seen that article. In it, it clearly states "Shugden practitioners are asked not to attend the teachings." There are many many proofs of the ban - if only it was fiction! For anyone who's interested - there's a section on 'The Ban' in dorjeshugden. com where you can read all about it!
WSS is not Dalai Lama unfriendly. They are simply stating the truth and pointing out the DL's lies and hypocrisy. Is it being his friend to encourage him to commit negative karma by ignoring the damage he's doing to Buddhism? I don't think so!
NKT is not WSS. WSS has not had a change of heart - has the Dalai Lama rescinded the ban? No, therefore, no change.
Absolutely. HH the Dalai Lama wrote a beautiful praise to Dorje Shugden. Could the Dalai Lama have been wrong? Could Trijang Rinpoche have been wrong? Ling Rinpoche? 101st Gaden Tri? The list is long...
@KacheMarp0 Yes, i agree. it cannot be that 350 years of practice and high lamas have been wrong. Is that saying that all those lamas and all the practices they have taught within the lineage are ALL WRONG? If they are all wrong, wouldn't that mean all the monasteries now are doing wrong practices too?
@TheRedNiece Also if the Dalai Lama can say that His Gurus are all wrong. Well He studied under these illustrious Lamas and have received so many teachings from them. If they are wrong in something that is defiled and evil then what does that make HHDL - defiled and evil? Because he received defiled teachings from these Lamas? Why does it all not make any sense?
If HH DL say that DS practice is harmful to him, why did DS ask HH DL to leave Tibet and escape through the ranges into safety in India? Why help and save him then but now become a threat to his life? This is not right.
Hey! Why are you using my account to post comments? I don't agree that Dorje Shugden worship violates religious freedom. I think it is in accord with religious freedom. That was such a silly rhetorical statement. Dorje Shugden just wants his practitioners to have Guru devotion to ones own lineage and not to go all lineages and master none. Mastering one's one lineage is the key towards gaining attainments.
The same thing happened to me a few weeks back - someone hacked my account and starting posting negative comments about Dorje Shugden under my name. Dirty tricks, eh?
It should be made clear that Shugen worship itself violates religious freedom, because Shugden does not allow followers to practice other schools than the "pure Gelug school". Those who practice other schools "mix the pure doctrine" and will be killed for that "crime" by the deity Dorje Shugden, or they will at least be punished by a terrible sickness and finally die a horrible death.
Why do you give a rhetorical statement like that? Of course the Dalai Lama is promoting Budddhism and that is synonymous with looking within. We are talking about the Dalai Lama's inconsistent statements. These monks in this video is saying that Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's life. So why is he such a scary spirit to the Dalai Lama?
look at /user/portaljohn..on his anti-Dalai Lama/pro-KG video, the second commenter is Dale157, who "just happens" to stop by a year ago as soon as the video was posted.
3/3: has the strongest karmic link to sentient being of this period and that his protection and guidance is most suitable now. In other words, before DL leaves us (he is afterall above 70 yrs old), he wants to be assured that sentient beings are taken care of.
As a Dharma practitioner, I would like to believe in version 2 ☺
*Check out dorjeshugden(dot)com for really interesting information about DS.
How is it possible to popularise a practice by banning it?
By the same logic, if we want everyone to convert to Buddhism we should ban it! This view that the DL has banned to practice of Dorje Shugden to make it more popular, when the number of practitioners have definitely reduced, is totally bizarre and against logic and experience.
2/3:Therefore, it is not surprising that the conflict still arise between DL & DS today. Similarly, the context of Dharma they operate fr. still maintains: DL=Lama Policy as he is still a political cum spiritual leader; and DS=Pure Dharma as he saved DLs life.
Perhaps it is the context fr. which DL practice that propels him to ban DS. There is also another theory that this is DLs strategy to popularize DS on a larger scheme because he knows that (also commonly believed and accepted) DS is...
1/3: The link between Dalai Lama (DL) & Dorje Shugden (DS) was estab. since the time of the 5th DL & Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen (TD; recognized to return as DS) in the 17th century. There was conflict in their context of Dharma practice: DL was pro-Lama Policy that mixes spirituality & politics, while TD stood 4 pure Dharma. TD's popularity caused some level of threat to the political position of 5th DL. In summary, this conflict led to the death of TD & the rise of DS.
If it is true that DS did save the Dalai Lamas life by asking Dalai Lama to leave Tibet and also planned for his escape, then why is the Dalai Lama banning DS? I dont understand the fear behind this ban is. It cant be that the more people engaged themselves in Shugdens practice, the Dalai Lamas life will be shortened. How is that?
Dharma Protectors main functions are to protect Buddhadharma, clear obstacles that prevent practitioners from their spiritual realizations, and to arrange all necessary conditions for their practice. In essence, HHDL is a monk wishing to spread dharma. Both have same mission.
If they have the same mission, why is the Dalai Lama interfering with the spreading of Buddhadharma by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden?
The prasangikas would make a laughing stock out of the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama because he's a holy being spreading the Dharma' views being expressed on this page! Your view makes no logical sense and is contrary to the Dalai Lama's actions.
"A protector who exhibits a worldly aspect yet is in fact indivisible from Manjusri Yamantaka is this very Dharma Protector, Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden".
From: MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS, written by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, the tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Lineage - thank you for this video. It brought tears to my eyes. The monk speaks from the heart and is so sincere. May Dorje Shugden's lineage spread through wonderful Sangha and those who trust in him. Thanks also for the link to the wisdombuddhadorjeshugden . org site. Cool.
I love this video. This monk has obviously gone through so much, during the exile and now with the ban. It is so inspiring to see that he still hold steadfast his practice in Dorje Shugden despite how much hurt he has experienced due to HHDL's words and action.
Hello?!!! I dont see any threat in the Dalai Lamas life. He looks healthy and strong, and able to travel around the world giving dharma talks and the banning of DS practice. I suppose H.H. life is not shorten at all. In fact, from my point of view, DS has definitely help H.H. thru his reign.
negative speech, sure sounds like it coming from such a prominent figure such as HHDL. Imagine if during the election for the american president obama stood in front of national television and annouced to the WORLD his policy of discrimination. No leader no matter how big or small would ever do this in this day and age.Yet HHDL does why? What would be the results of such an open and vehement denial of the DS practice.
We've seen the results of his vehement denial of DS practice - ostracism, a schism in the Sangha, hatred, intolerance and violence. You seem to think the Dalai Lama is worthy of admiration for being openly hostile.
I find that strange. I admire people for love, compassion, openness, tolerance and non-sectarianism - the very qualities that the Dalai Lama talks about but never practices.
I don't think the fact HHDL would be speaking out against him in the future deterred DS from helping HHDL. Two points related to this: (1) As it has been pointed out on dorjeshugden{DOT}com, DS can bear the burden of the criticism (2) If DS knew that ultimately, ppl were going to be harmed from not receiving DS practice because of what HHDL says, he wouldn't have saved HHDL. So perhaps the Dalai Lama is working hand-in-hand with DS to promote the practice, through seemingly negative speech?
The fact Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's life also points to his enlightened nature because if he knew the Dalai Lama was going to speak out against him, then why bother saving him? Why not let him die, so he WOULDN'T have the burden of so famous a lama criticising him? Because he doesn't care about who criticises him, because he is enlightened. No matter what people say about him, he has no ego and will still help them if they need help.
@Lineageholder - I've been posting on your video for a while now but I've never actually thanked you for putting it up. Your video shows that DS really is a kind protector who is compassionate to all. Even though, with his omniscience, he would've known that the Dalai Lama was going to speak out against him, he STILL helped the Dalai Lama. It stands to reason that no matter what a being says about him, he will still help if they need help and if they have the karma to be helped.
I won't ever lose faith in HHDL he has done more for the world this century than all the politcial leaders combined.
While it may look this way now I'm sure he knows what hes doing. Why am I sure, because how can a motivation of compassion ever cause a negative result. And while it may not look it now, i won't lose faith in the long term future.
whats your conclusion then? everyone is going to go to hell? thats your vain hope? please and since when were you a qualified person to judge a high lama?
Do you believe there can be harm as an act of compassion, on a low level there is a parent for a child, then on a social level, jail for a criminal. Wouldn't you restrain and imprison a murderer if need be by force?
You have a point there. To all the people who criticise him, how much have THEY achieved themselves? How many people have they brought to the dharma?
I guess the same argument can be applied to DS lamas - to the people who criticise those lamas, they should first check how much benefit they themselves have brought to others. Lamas like Gangchen Rinpoche, who constantly benefit others through his healing centres, etc - can you match that?
Hmmmm.... I also read the same thing in a translated excerpt of the Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography. So strange that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche also says not to loose faith in the Dalai Lama as well. Well, if anybody interested in these texts can read it in dorjeshugden(dot)com.
Because Pol Pot harmed everyone; the Dalai Lama benefits many people and appears to harm a few. In any case, during trance, Dorje Shugden always says to respect the Dalai Lama, and not to lose faith. Are you saying that Dorje Shugden is wrong? How can one of his answers be wrong, and everything else be right?
And please note I said 'appears', because people do not have to act on his words. People should take responsibility for their actions. If someone wants to pick up a rock and throw it at a DS monk, it is their choice to do that - it's not as though they had the Dalai Lama standing behind them, forcing them to pick up the rock. Therefore it is also that person's karma to bear, not the Dalai Lama's.
Tibetan have no choice but to act on his words. They are forced to swear an oath to give up the practice and not to have anything to do with Shugden practitioner on pain of being ostracised from society. The DL does not give anyone choice, that's simply propaganda.
The Dalai Lama bears responsibility for all their broken vows and commitments to their Gurus.
I believe that people should respect each other's personal choice, and not throw it in one another's faces. If you want to practise, fine, go ahead and practise and make sure you do it well. If you don't want to practise, fine, go ahead and don't practise but make sure you do your other practices well...in the case of those Radio City anti-DS people, practising a teaching they had just received!
That's why I have great respect for some Dorje Shugden practitioners who just want to practise and forget about the politics of the issue. Those people realise that at the end of the day, when they die, the politics of the issue will not matter to their rebirths. What will matter is how well they practised the teachings of their gurus without causing harm and distress to others.
@Lineageholder I think you can try to stop him by not reacting to him, just like how everyone should not react to him if it is a practice given to them by their root gurus.
Anyway, there is a difference between practising and actively criticising the Dalai Lama because face it, he HAS helped a lot of people. And by destroying his reputation, you are destroying many people's chances of entering the dharma. Why would they want to enter Buddhism if they see we can even get along?
@Lineageholder Why would anyone practise a religion that does not promote harmony? There won't be future generations of Dharma practitioners if we do not start with ourselves now.
There is also a difference between promoting Dorje Shugden and actively criticising the Dalai Lama. If Dorje Shugden himself never criticises, why should any of his practitioners?
@Lineageholder Btw, I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong in trying to stop harm and distress being cause to others, because the ban has led to that in many cases. However, we don't know the end result of the ban and we don't know what the Dalai Lama's motivation is; we don't have the attainments to judge. I think it's wonderful (really, I do!) you're doing this for the sake of others but when we jump into the politics ourselves, are we really keeping the dharma pure for future generations?
@DharmaDefender those are very good points and I'd also like to add that as laypeople, how qualified are we really to be able to judge and criticise the actions of the lamas and practices which are thousands of years old?
It is said we cannot tell if someone is a buddha, even if they're right in front of us. We shud remember this in all our actions and be careful not to judge, as we could be directly criticising an enlightened being which can be dangerous for our own practice.
It really goes back to the issue of blind faith - do you believe in karma? If so, people who take sides on the issue wouldn't behave the way that they do. Furthermore, are you doing something because your guru told you to, or because you feel it is valid? Take the protest videos of Radio City, and those Buddhists coming out of a teaching on compassion. If they really did believe in the teachings and felt them to be valid, they wouldn't have reacted in anger to the DS protestors outside.
Shugden followers. Your practice is based on Lama Tagpo´s visions.
It´s not based on Tsongkhapa´s teachings.
You believe those visions but not the 5thReting´s visions. Reting (the regent of Tibet)
followed his visions and found the 14th Dalai Lama. Reting was later imprisoned and murdered by his rival Thatag. A Shugden practitioner. Thatak became tutor to the Dalai Lama who was six years old.
What a crowd...
Varavaken 7 months ago
Shugden followers (Khampas) helped him escape 1959.
Nowadays Shugden followers try to kill him. They are allies with the PRC.
I don´t know about the orachles.
The Shugden group within Gelug school was influential in those days.
But neither Nechung nor Shugden were powerful enough to prevent the Chinese invasion.
Varavaken 7 months ago
this old monk is lying...wat a shame
dhasaboi 10 months ago
@dhasaboi Your statement is based on what evidence?
Lineageholder 6 months ago
What govt would ban a religion or a form of worship in a democratic country in this day and age. What religious leader would criticize or suppress a faith or unique forms of worship. This ban is the biggest mistake by the 'Tibetan govt'. This mistake will haunt them for the rest of their short existence. After HH Dalai Lama passes away, they will dissolve.
iwannaberich2007 10 months ago
If you guys here believe in Buddhism, then you should know that everything that we have, encounter and the people we meet are all based on our own karma. What good is it on criticizing others? It doesn't gives you rebirth in the Amitabha Buddha's Pure Land, it doesn't aides you in your cultivation of the Six Perfections. If you have met bad people in your life, the only helpful thing will be to repent and vow that you do not want to associate yourself with the bad in your future lives.
LegendaryKing 1 year ago
If the Drakpa Gyaltsen's spirit (Shugden) saved the Dalai Lama, it did so with his own sectarian aganda.He's a figure like Osama Bin Laden,who may be a Muslim (leader), yet holding views that are unacceptable for Muslims, such as claiming superiority of Jihadist Wahhabism over all other sects and the killing of innocents. Even if he is dead right now, he may still be serving the enemies of Islam. This is the meaning of causing a shism in a community. Therefore I believe the Dalai Lama is right.
intezam 1 year ago
Perhaps if the DL had the courage to senselessly reject and even try to ban the propitiation of Buddha Dorje Shugdan before his successful exile thanks to the deity, this would not be a problem now.
jamieandsuraj 1 year ago
@jamieandsuraj
The Dalai Lama was introduced to DS when he was in his twenties.
He was surrounded by DS followers when he grew up in the Potala palace (regents, teachers). He was unaware of the historical background of DS or its sectarian function. So how could he claim that the practice was harmful at that time?
Varavaken 7 months ago
Comment removed
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
For the first time ever, H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography THE ILLUSORY PLAY is now fully available in English.
Download this beautifully translated account of Trijang Rinpoche's life at dorjeshugden(dot)com.
A MUST READ!
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
I guess one can rewrite history but not the truth.Whatever the reason for HH ban on DS and rejection of DS help depends on whether we can see beyond the obvious or short term and our faith in the skilful means of enlightened masters which appear to be in conflict. Of course this is not so easy if one is the affected party. I agree injustices should not be swept under. But we should leave some space for reconciliation and mutual respect for the Lamas overwhelming good qualities.
dharmapots 1 year ago
@dharmapots There will be reconciliation when the Dalai Lama agrees to discuss the DS issue. Until now, all entreaties have been ignored. The Dalai Lama's qualities are questionable - if you check carefully what he has achieved for his people, the answer is 'nothing' - all he has done is make a good name for himself and collect lots of awards. I'll have faith in the DL when I see him acting in accordance with the Buddhadharma.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
You´re a parrot, Lineageholder.
"The Dalai Lama has accomplished nothing" - it´s an NKT slogan, It´s Geshe Kelsang´s words.
Kelsang Gyatso and other DS groups started this smear campaign against the Dalai Lama in the late 1990´s.(That´s why this monk was expelled from Sera monastery.) DS groups are supported by the Chinese government. DS actvists have been involved in crimes and murder. Some kill for money...
You are an embarrassment to all Buddhists!!!
Varavaken 6 months ago
@Varavaken Thank you for your comments, I have purified some of my harsh speech karma. If you check, you will find that there is no campaign without the Dalai Lama's harsh sectarian stance regarding Dorje Shugden, which is not based on any evidence whatsoever. If the Dalai Lama was not so intolerant and uncompassionate, there would be no basis for bringing this matter to peoples' attention.
Lineageholder 6 months ago
@Lineageholder
I think the demonstrations have stopped, but not the smear campaigns.
There are still the old websites and new DS websites have been added.
Varavaken 6 months ago
@Lineageholder
This was an an intra-religious conflict in the early 80´s. Gelug lamas had long discussions before the issue was resolved 1996. The DS followers (a minority) formed their own groups.
But some were dissatisfied, so they contacted China for support. They have been collaborating with China since (at least) 1998.
I hope these Gelug sectarians have lost their former influence on Gelug school once and for all.
They dominated when Tibet was invaded...
Varavaken 6 months ago
@dharmapots
Very strange comments, indeed...
What a fool you are.
The Gelug lamas have agreed to end this practice.
Shugden people from China attempted to assasinate the Dalai Lama four years ago. I´m glad they didn´t succeed.
Follow your own teachers.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@dorje169 I've had to remove your comments again because they are defamatory and there is no evidence for the things you claim, unless you would like to post some. Sorry.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
This is so powerful in the way that it shows how much Dorje Shugden has done for the Dalai Lama. Also, how loyal and steadfast this monk (and many others like him) are in spite of all the difficulty they are facing.
It is also remarkable that in the midst of so much injustice, these monks never speak a bad word against the dalai lama. That shows the true strength, practice and compassion of a Dorje Shugden practitioner
honeydakini 1 year ago
@honeydakini It is right to speak out about injustice. Just because the perpetrator is the Dalai Lama does not exempt him from criticism. It doesn't necessary show strength to refrain from critical speech because this can be motivated by fear or by samaya. There are many who believe that the Dalai Lama has given the Kalachakra empowerment many times to create samaya so that he will not be subject to criticism. If this is true, it is abuse of holy Dharma for political purposes.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@dorje169 - sorry, I removed your comment because it contained some hateful words towards the Dalai Lama. He's made a big mistake and is harming the Dharma, but we don't wish him to suffer, that's not the Buddhist way.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
It was the Khampas who risked their lives and their families to bring Dalai Lama safely into India. Sadly, it is not acknowledged much nor appreciated.
ikhamo 1 year ago
@ikhamo
Haven´t you read My Land and My People (memoirs of the Dalai Lama)?
He´s praising the brave Khampas. Read about the escape.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Varavaken outsider,
a book written for westerners. I own that book. not many tibetans own this book and i have never heard in his speech about any appreciation and nor in your tone. i suggest you stop stalking me like the hateful clones you hang around with.
ikhamo 1 year ago
@ikhamo
My comment was not hateful, ikhamo.
And I´m not "stalking" you.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Varavaken
thank you then. now i shall take leave.
ikhamo 1 year ago
dalai lama is simply not agree from his opinon by his experienced wish less people will follow that rule.... dalai lama never say do this and that only he tink this really bad for each and everyone
jctcdk 1 year ago
as a Buddhist myself... i am greatly confused why the Dalai lama and the Shugden practitioners are at odds towards each other. i have seen both sides at great length explain why their are in the right but i dont believe either of them are right. I'm confused why his Holiness would abandon the teachings of his own teachers, but at the same time i understand his pov.. but i also understand the pov of the Shugdens...
lamrimeater 1 year ago
@lamrimeater To me, i dont think is appropriate for the Dalai lama to say these things unless there is evidence that supports his claims and is presented in a peaceful form to the Shugdens.. but its a Catch -22... you can't tell someone else is wrong to believe or practice anything.. including this... its funny how Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai lama's texts were my first experience with Buddhism.. i deeply respect them both.
lamrimeater 1 year ago
Some lamas just can't be silenced - and they return always, out of their compassion, to benefit the world!
Hot news: TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN'S incarnation is back in the world!!! Check out dorjeshugden (dot ) com for the full story!!!!!
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
Lobsang Gyatso, head of the Dialectics Institute in Dharamsala was brutally stabbed to death by Shugden followers 1997. So were his two students.
It was after this triple murder that the Dalai Lama began to speak more actively against Shugden.
The suspects fled to China/Tibet, they never went to trial.
Interpol eventuallay released arrest warrents (2007).
Varavaken 1 year ago
Shugden monks have their own monasteries in India, as we all know.
And they have Chinese passports...
Varavaken 1 year ago
HH Dalai Lama has a very rational explanation...you just aren't getting it.
He realised the error of his ways...when are you going to realise yours?
kerryfirehorse 1 year ago
Yes, all the monks on both sides of the controversy are innocent pawns. They are led by the nose and mindwashed into blowing up the Shugden controversy by the Chinese... Wow, they must be the foremost intelligent country in the world.
So when's the next Chinese president of the US??
Sheesh.
pat2698 1 year ago
@pat2698 It's not the Chinese that have caused this, its the Dalai Lama trying to destroy an age-old spiritual practice with no apparently rational explanation.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
Yes, I know, everyone wants to blame the Chinese for all their ills. This is 100% an internal Tibethan political issue. And recognising it is the very first step. The monks are being embroiled in their leaders political issues.
pat2698 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
it is very convenient excuse for them to blame everything on China and Chinese. In every controversy and conflict, it is the chinese in the middle. this excuse is getting too lame now.
ikhamo 1 year ago
@pat2698
The Shugden leaders in Delhi are with the CCP.
That is the truth.
Varavaken 1 year ago
Most young Shugden monks in in India are NOT Tibetan refugees. They have CHINESE PASSPORTS. They are loyal to the Chinese Communist Party, not to the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan exile community...
Varavaken 1 year ago
this is terrible to be discriminated and intimidated by your own people and they cant speak up because they are a minoirty in their community.
ikhamo 1 year ago
China is such a convenient target, isn't it? Blame everything on China.
aguswidjaja 1 year ago
@aguswidjaja
right, blame everything on china and dont take any responsibilities for yourself. it is a convenient excuse.
ikhamo 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"We are not supposed to..."
the notorious anti-Tibetan chineseheart has exposed the entire 50 Cent Party operation, by proving there IS a whole team, that team IS working for someone.
"we" = a team
"not supposed to" = indicates obligation to a boss
See my profile if you want to look at the screen shot of chineseheart saying this.
DunkeyTibet 1 year ago
lol goldenkey autopwnd
DunkeyTibet 1 year ago
Delhi High Court:
"In an order dated April 5, 2010, Justice S. Muralidhar dismissed the writ petition and application on the grounds that the allegations of violence and harassment were vague averments and that the raised issues do not partake of any public law character and therefore are not justiciable in proceedings under Article 226 of the Constitution.
Citing the absence of any specific instances of any such attacks on Dorjee Shugden practitioners, ..."
ABCDIR 1 year ago
goldenkey007 - I'm sorry, but I've removed your post because it's full of insults and thinly veiled expletives.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Varavaken Because the Abbots didn't want to give up the practice and neither did the monks. The Dalai Lama forced them to do so by threatening to remove the Abbots unless they did something to enforced the ban. The Dalai Lama was ineffective in stopping the practice in the monasteries until 2008.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
You listen to "Kundeling" and the pro-Chinese Delhi group.
I don´t.
As long as Shugden practitioners are allowed to practice, you can not claim that there is religious persecusion.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@dragonthunder2010
Why did the Shugden monks cause so much problems in their monasteries?
Why did they try to enforce their practice on other monks? Did they follow instructions from China? If they had practiced peacefully I´m sure the practice would still be allowed.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Varavaken This is just propaganda by the CTA to justify expelling the monks from their monasteries and to fulfil the Dalai Lama's wishes. None of this happened.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
There are reliable eye witnesses. One of them is the monk Lobsang Jangchub (Sera), he saw what went on (he stayed at Sera for two years). But why do I bother, you only listen to your own sources. You are not interested in the truth. You are a propagandist.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
The Dalai Lama did not expel Shugden monks, the monasteries did.
If you look up the Sera-monk Lobsang Jangchub, a witness of the events in Sera monastery you may understand why.
China has been been sending Shugden monks to India to destabilize the Tibetan community. Most of these monks come from the eastern parts of Tibet.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Varavaken I have not heard any reports that the Shugden monks caused any problems or disruptions within the monasteries. They simply wished to continue their practice, so they decided to break away. But it wasn't done aggressively or with any problems towards the other monks of the monasteries.
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
@TheRedNiece
If you go to "Tibetan Buddhism goes West" you can read about the monk Lobsang Jangchub, a witness of the events in Sera monastery (India). It´s quite outrageous.
But I´m too lazy to quoute.
Varavaken 1 year ago
14 year ban? has it been that long that...
- DS continues to NOT be subjugated by any ritual.
- DS continues to NOT shorten HHDL life.
- DS continues to NOT receive money from Chinese government.
- DS continues to NOT be the cause for Tibet being lost.
How many more years before everyone sees the truth for what it is. Actions made now may not be the truth 1 month, 2 months from now. We will all see soon enoughl
ImNotCCP 1 year ago
that's right! dorje shugden saved dalai lama's life and discovered Lama zopa's current incarnation
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
The main concern for people who are not interested in politics is not whether or not Shugden is against the cause of Tibet, but rather this practice has been given by their holy teacher and they wanted to practice it. It has nothing to do with whether they are Chinese or Tibetans nor their political inclination.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
All we want and hope for is for the silly Ban to be lifted because what good did it bring except more disharmony, divisions, ppl and monks forced to stop their practice out of fear they will be ostracized and violently abused. Just like those monks being attacked in Sep 9th 2000 outside Gaden. That is repulsive and totally against any law.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
@dragonthunder2010
Why don´t you tell us about the activities of "Kundeling" and his Shugden followers?
Murder, coercion and intimidation. And financial support from China. Tell us about the Chinese government´s infiltration. It´s been going on since 1999. Political traitors are not heroes.
Varavaken 1 year ago
@Varavaken I can't tell you cos there is nothing to tell. I don't personally know Kundeling Rinpoche except he speaks very logically and the whole world is watching. Base on logic, your reasons, evidence and excuses for the Ban comes very weak. Perhaps a normal nomad Tibetan person would easily accept those reasons but not the world who are educated and use their heads to think. It's just pure common sense.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
@dragonthunder2010
"He speaks very logically". What a fool you are.
And I´m too well educated to be deceived by the Shugden promoters like you.
Varavaken 1 year ago
Has Dharma become so degenerate that even a simple truth is being denied. This video clearly shows a monk testifying who helped the Dalai Lama escaped. Now where was Nechung at that time?
Now there are many times that Nechung has given wrong prophesies and prediction. Why do you guys continue relying on him and instead you even build monasteries under his name? This seems strange as the Dalai Lama says not to worship "spirit". Isn't He a "spirit" or did we get that wrong also in your books?
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
@dragonthunder2010
I have never heard of Nechung worship. Nobody takes refuge in Nechung. But Shugden people take refuge in a worldly deity.
There is no longer Shugden practice in the Gelug monasteries, but I´m not sure it´s correct to call it a "ban". It´s not prohibited. Lay people can practice and Shugden monks have their own monasteries. If you want to know about a real ban, learn about Falun Gong in China.
Varavaken 1 year ago
And stop spamming another person's account, that is not Vinayaholder. Funny it just shows that pro Dalai Lama supporter wld go this low and spam on other ppl's account. I wouldn't be surprised that the whole entire history on DS is probably rewritten, twisted to suite your political agendas. Sad.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
Hello everyone knows there is BAN!!! The whole word knows, even my friends who aren't even Buddhist and living near any Asian continent knows!
It's crazy to go denying this issue. Yeah it's like saying the the Earth is Flat!
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
i live in tibetan society too and i have never ever seen or heard anyone torturing any people and why is that some of the videos i cannot comment weather it is right or wrong and the if some1 says dat there are being outcasted i seriously know that they are outcasted by their own will nobody push them around and did n e thing to them and the some videos you might had seen in youtube here are about monks not allowed to shop in some stores or stuff are all drama seriously omg hope peace for them
lodoesingey 1 year ago
Comments about the NKT or Geshe Kelsang will be removed as this is nothing to do with the issue.
Thanks for your consideration.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
If that's a "ban," Hu Jintao has some ocean-front property in Utah to sell you.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
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vinayahoIder 1 year ago
"If one chooses to fly in the face of all the reasoning and still get involved in this form of worship, there is nothing that anyone can do about it. Whatever form of spirit worship one wants to do, it is up to oneself. Even if one chooses to close one's eyes to the evidence, without caring about the results of one's actions, I can do nothing about it. It is like the words, "I, Kachei Palu, have disclosed my secrets here, but whether you choose to listen or not is up to you". HHDL 6 DEC 2000
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
That's right! Dorje Shugden save Dalai Lama's life.
Both Je Tsongkhapa (peaceful Manjushri) and Dorje Shugden (wrathful Manjushri) are manifestations of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, as are the Dharma Protectors four-faced Mahakala and Kalarupa. Therefore, they are all the same enlightened nature.
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
Just look at the great new DS monasteries such as Serpom and Shar Gaden monasteries which are flourishing in spite of all the difficulty. And new generations of Lamas such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Gangchen Rinpoche who are bringing dharma to so many thousands of people all over the world. This is incredible courage and strength during difficult times that show what Dorje Shugden is really all about.
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
it is quite sad to see how much DS practitioners are suffering - the ostracism, attacks and being totally denied any welfare from the tibetan government.
However, what is inspiring is to see how strong they remain in their practice and with such great faith. In spite of the difficulty, they persevere in their practice, remain committed to Dorje Shugden and their Lamas and continue to build anew.
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
Wisdombeing, Rednice, KachMarpo, yadda yadda yadda, all the same person.
Makes you wonder - what is one person doing only 24/7, posing as different people, just to DISS the Dalai Lama.
Hmm, the only other people doing that are Chinese mainlanders working for the Propaganda Department.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
@vinayahoIder yeah, yeah, same old accusations. No one can tell the truth about the Dalai Lama without being accused of being a Chinese spy. It's a very old, hackneyed form of defence. You just can't accept the truth on this issue.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
There has to be something wrong from their side when they stress so much this forging of a relationship, but you can't actually meet Gyatso and talk to him! At Samye Ling, which I visited often at one time, the lamas came down to the kitchen and had a coffee quite often with the residents. Other groups I have been to their top brass is approachable at most reasonable times. KG is a recluse and the people around him are sycophants.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
Also funny how you guys (well, you one guy) always reference hearsay and "articles" about a "ban," but never cite personal experience. I have personal experience attending the teachings, and there is no ban.
Makes for juicy hype, though.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
@vinayahoIder How would you know that's there's no ban on Dorje Shugden practitioners attending the Dalai Lama's teachings? They don't wear round yellow hats, you know! He has himself asked Shugden practitioners not to attend his teachings and there is so much documentary evidence for the ban on Shugden, to claim otherwise is like trying to claim that the Earth is flat!
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Funny how Dorje Shugden never became an issue until the Zhōnggòng Zhōngyāng Xuānchuánbù (Propaganda Department) made it one - particularly after the spanking-new Bureau of Public Opinion (Jesus, Mary and Joseph - it's almost too funny to take seriously) was formed in 2004.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
@vinayahoIder This is simply incorrect. The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden an issue by stopping the practice in 1978 for erroneous reasons, by publicly banning it in 1996 and introducing an enforced signature campaign to force people to give up the practice. He then re-ignited the conflict by expelling 900 Shugden monks from their monasteries in 2008. The 'Dorje Shugden Controversy' is the creation of the Dalai Lama. These are the facts.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Lineageholder
Nice play-by-play from the Propaganda Office memo. Your guys are making more and more mistakes though - like showing up on pre-fab "Shugden" sites and accidentally posting in Chinese, like having the guys with poor English (no offense, just pointing it out) make posts that are obviously from a mainlander, and not to mention PM-ing each other in Chinese.
The biggest mistake of all was hiring you-know-who to be the gwaipo "TV nun." Her brother's ties to NKT are too open.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
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vinayahoIder 1 year ago
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Ieedhi 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
The Dalai Lama is fully supported in his view by the monastic communities.
China has been sending Shugden monks to India to destabilize the Tibetan community. The self-proclaimed Lama "Kundeling" and his followers in Delhi have been conspireing with China since 1999.
That´s the truth, Lineageholder. But you´re not interested in the truth.
The Dalai Lama stopped his own practice 1976 and he spoke against it. There was no ban.
Stop spreading your lies.
Varavaken 1 year ago
dear friend Varavaken,
The Dalai Lama tells the monasteries what to think and they think it. He has complete power over them, so of course they do what he says, otherwise there is trouble. It's not a democracy, you know!
I am interested in the truth. The truth is the Dalai Lama banned the practice of Dorje Shugden. There was no ban in 1976, but there has been since 1996. Today is the 14th anniversary of the ban. This is the truth.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder
So the monasteries pretend to agree with the Dalai Lama, out of fear. Well, that´s your conclusion. You live in a dream world.
Varavaken 1 year ago
that's not to say that the enlightened beings would do anything to us but it is "dangerous" from our side to criticise lamas and practices because we open up in our minds the tendency to always judge, criticise and nitpick. Then we never get anywhere in our practice. And the demerit of criticising sangha is also huge, which can hinder our spiritual progress.
We shud aim to follow the advice of our teachers, practice quietly, peacefully n show a good example of Dharma
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
Thats what drew me to buddhism, the encouragement of asking questions, debating with the teacher. Where else has such openess.
nostra120 1 year ago
Thats that danger, some people are naturally inquisitive, others are just damn right lazy, give me the details, i don't need to dig any deeper, at least there is a great resource online at dorjeshugden *dot* com. I found all I need to clear my doubts there, and also I got to ask my questions that noone could answer, at least with something that made perfect sense.
nostra120 1 year ago
@DharmaDefender your points are valid... I would be sick of it buddhism too if i were a newbie, its like the scandal with priests and little boys, now its like the pope declaring a ban on people praying to mother mary. Without the insights into buddhism and the focus on logic and debate i'm afraid many people will just take a glance and be turned off the Dharma Path.
ImAnonoMouse 1 year ago
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Attained enlightened minds do not squabble with each other, instead mutual humility, respect and kindness is shown. These are the real Dharma.
Since the rise of this controversy, I have never heard high Lama like Dilgo Kyentse utter a single world that is negative of Dorje Shugden or HHDL. Beings like this show us true Dharma practice and beyond politics.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
I came across this article of how HH Penor Rinpoche was unbiased and sympathetic towards Dorje Shugden monks due to the ban and he opened up Namdroling for these monks to get supplies. It really is inspiring and uplifting to read this article... bit [.] ly [/] cbARTJ
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
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@TheDharmaKnight
Yes Very interesting article on how HH Penor Rinpoche showed compassion to DS practitioners.
He show us Dharma is above and beyond political agendas. Love, Compassion and kindness is higher then political agendas.
ALL enlightened minds are the same - compassionate and kind. Another interesting article is on the previous Pancehn Rinpoche meeting with HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche. Panchen Rinpoche practice DS, there were not issues between the 2 leaders.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
There are interesting theories why the Dalai Lama is so contradictory. It can be interpreted that the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture at hand (Ive read some interesting perspectives from the website dorjeshugden-dot-com) which works out to be quite logical when we think deeper about it. For example, it was said that the controversy would make Dorje Shugden better known than the efforts of all DS practitioners, which has really come true.
KacheMarp0 1 year ago
This is a wrong view because the Dalai Lama's action has resulted in a decrease in Shugden practice and practitioners, vilification of great Lamas such as Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Dorjechang, the degeneration of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition into petty politics and witchhunts and a schism in the Sangha. There is no bigger plan, only the annihilation of the pure Buddhadharma by ignorance in this degenerate age, led by someone who pretends to be the upholder of it. Shame!
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Actually, I would disagree with that because the Dalai Lama can say one thing, but it is up to the individual to enact it. Therefore his words may have been 'ban Dorje Shugden' but the ACTIVE vilification of great lamas and degeneration of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition is the result of practitioners NOT following the teachings. If practice is a personal choice, so is everything else we do. The ban may have resulted in a decrease within the Tibetan community but outside it, it is growing stronger.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
Actually come to think of it even Dorje Shugden himself (when invoked through an oracle) have never advice anything negative toward HHDL instead the advice given has been the opposite.
Instead He has asked us to respect HHDL and to not loose faith in him. I wonder what that may mean?
Could it be that HHDL is indirectly promoting Dorje Shugden to the world via China since samsara feeds on political controversies???
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
dragon....
Stop it.
You´re so fake.
China is not very friendly.
The Shugden groups are not friendly.
I don´t know about DS.
Go to HHdiamond´s channel.
So fake. Just like you.
Varavaken 1 year ago
Actually when we look at all the high Lamas who are still practicing Dorje Shugden, e.g. Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche's. We can gain much strength and inspiration from their attitude towards this controversy.
Even though the still practice and does not abide by the Ban, they also do not say anything negative about HHDL. Like Bodhisattvas they remain peaceful no matter how much negative criticsm they receive.
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
Shugden practitioners were asked not to attend the Dalai Lama's teachings in Bodh Gaya. I tried to post a link to prove this, but YouTube won't accept any links to be posted. To find it, search for 'Dalai Lama arrives in Bodh Gaya for teachings, prayers' on the Tibet Sun website. The Dalai Lama himself is on record asking Shugden practitioners not to come to his teachings.
The Dalai Lama himself has used the word 'ban' in connection with Dorje Shugden, therefore your assertion is incorrect.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Lineageholder
Who do you listen to? People like "kundeling"?
You´re so indoctrinated, and you try to indoctrinate others.
Take nga lama ("kundeling") to court!
He is not a "victim". He is a CRIMINAL, a Chinese tool.
Varavaken 1 year ago
The difference, lineageholder, is that I have my own personal experience proving otherwise, where as you're posting links & rumors.
cIoserelative 1 year ago
@Lineageholder Yes i have seen that article. In it, it clearly states "Shugden practitioners are asked not to attend the teachings." There are many many proofs of the ban - if only it was fiction! For anyone who's interested - there's a section on 'The Ban' in dorjeshugden. com where you can read all about it!
wisdombeing 1 year ago
@vinayahoIder It is true that DS is represented by WSS but I wouldn't agree that it is the best representation with the protest and all.
pathseeker9 1 year ago
LMAO
WSS is not Dalai-unfriendly, they "simply point out his lies and hypocrisy."
btw, you guys shouldn't PM each other in Chinese.
DiamondGirI1971 1 year ago
wrong on all counts, sorry.
WSS is not Dalai Lama unfriendly. They are simply stating the truth and pointing out the DL's lies and hypocrisy. Is it being his friend to encourage him to commit negative karma by ignoring the damage he's doing to Buddhism? I don't think so!
NKT is not WSS. WSS has not had a change of heart - has the Dalai Lama rescinded the ban? No, therefore, no change.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Lineageholder
Have you heard of The Geden Phacho Bhucho Preservation Centre? Go to
GedenTradition´s channel, look at their videos. WAKE UP!
Do you expect a "change of heart"?
Varavaken 1 year ago
The Dalai Lama propitiated DS for many years, but he didn´t take refuge in DS.
Varavaken 1 year ago
This is incorrect. If you read the DL's praise to Dorje Shugden, he clearly regards him as a Buddha.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Lineageholder
And "the 5th built the statue with his bare hands".... Sorry, we don´t live in the same world...
Varavaken 1 year ago
Absolutely. HH the Dalai Lama wrote a beautiful praise to Dorje Shugden. Could the Dalai Lama have been wrong? Could Trijang Rinpoche have been wrong? Ling Rinpoche? 101st Gaden Tri? The list is long...
KacheMarp0 1 year ago
@KacheMarp0 Yes, i agree. it cannot be that 350 years of practice and high lamas have been wrong. Is that saying that all those lamas and all the practices they have taught within the lineage are ALL WRONG? If they are all wrong, wouldn't that mean all the monasteries now are doing wrong practices too?
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
@TheRedNiece Also if the Dalai Lama can say that His Gurus are all wrong. Well He studied under these illustrious Lamas and have received so many teachings from them. If they are wrong in something that is defiled and evil then what does that make HHDL - defiled and evil? Because he received defiled teachings from these Lamas? Why does it all not make any sense?
dragonthunder2010 1 year ago
If HH DL say that DS practice is harmful to him, why did DS ask HH DL to leave Tibet and escape through the ranges into safety in India? Why help and save him then but now become a threat to his life? This is not right.
zamzam24388 1 year ago
vinayaholder, I removed your comment because it was about NKT and that's not relevant to the Dorje Shugden discussion - sorry about that.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Hey! Why are you using my account to post comments? I don't agree that Dorje Shugden worship violates religious freedom. I think it is in accord with religious freedom. That was such a silly rhetorical statement. Dorje Shugden just wants his practitioners to have Guru devotion to ones own lineage and not to go all lineages and master none. Mastering one's one lineage is the key towards gaining attainments.
closerelative 1 year ago
The same thing happened to me a few weeks back - someone hacked my account and starting posting negative comments about Dorje Shugden under my name. Dirty tricks, eh?
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder It's not your account they hacked I think, because if you try and remove those comments 'you' supposedly said, you can't delete them.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
Btw, next time have the foresight to NOT use a Chinese narrator. My GOD. I could run the 50c party better myself.
cIoserelative 1 year ago
The documentary was made for Swiss TV. I don't hear a Chinese voice in there.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
It should be made clear that Shugen worship itself violates religious freedom, because Shugden does not allow followers to practice other schools than the "pure Gelug school". Those who practice other schools "mix the pure doctrine" and will be killed for that "crime" by the deity Dorje Shugden, or they will at least be punished by a terrible sickness and finally die a horrible death.
cIoserelative 1 year ago
The Dalai Lama mixes traditions and that doesn't seem to have happened to him. His saying that Dorje Shugden is sectarian is false.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Why do you give a rhetorical statement like that? Of course the Dalai Lama is promoting Budddhism and that is synonymous with looking within. We are talking about the Dalai Lama's inconsistent statements. These monks in this video is saying that Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's life. So why is he such a scary spirit to the Dalai Lama?
closerelative 1 year ago
look at /user/portaljohn..on his anti-Dalai Lama/pro-KG video, the second commenter is Dale157, who "just happens" to stop by a year ago as soon as the video was posted.
vinayahoIder 1 year ago
what a joke
vinayaholder is all over the pro-china videos.
shugden + China
Go Team.
Ieedhi 1 year ago
moo
fIoatinghippos 1 year ago
3/3: has the strongest karmic link to sentient being of this period and that his protection and guidance is most suitable now. In other words, before DL leaves us (he is afterall above 70 yrs old), he wants to be assured that sentient beings are taken care of.
As a Dharma practitioner, I would like to believe in version 2 ☺
*Check out dorjeshugden(dot)com for really interesting information about DS.
leedhi 1 year ago
How is it possible to popularise a practice by banning it?
By the same logic, if we want everyone to convert to Buddhism we should ban it! This view that the DL has banned to practice of Dorje Shugden to make it more popular, when the number of practitioners have definitely reduced, is totally bizarre and against logic and experience.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
leedhi
There are many religions, different religous traditions....
there is no simple recepy....
The Dalai Lama is NOT promoting Buddhism....
His advice is:
"Look within."
That´s DIFFICULT!
Following charismatic leaders is easy...
Varavaken 1 year ago
2/3:Therefore, it is not surprising that the conflict still arise between DL & DS today. Similarly, the context of Dharma they operate fr. still maintains: DL=Lama Policy as he is still a political cum spiritual leader; and DS=Pure Dharma as he saved DLs life.
Perhaps it is the context fr. which DL practice that propels him to ban DS. There is also another theory that this is DLs strategy to popularize DS on a larger scheme because he knows that (also commonly believed and accepted) DS is...
leedhi 1 year ago
1/3: The link between Dalai Lama (DL) & Dorje Shugden (DS) was estab. since the time of the 5th DL & Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen (TD; recognized to return as DS) in the 17th century. There was conflict in their context of Dharma practice: DL was pro-Lama Policy that mixes spirituality & politics, while TD stood 4 pure Dharma. TD's popularity caused some level of threat to the political position of 5th DL. In summary, this conflict led to the death of TD & the rise of DS.
leedhi 1 year ago
If it is true that DS did save the Dalai Lamas life by asking Dalai Lama to leave Tibet and also planned for his escape, then why is the Dalai Lama banning DS? I dont understand the fear behind this ban is. It cant be that the more people engaged themselves in Shugdens practice, the Dalai Lamas life will be shortened. How is that?
kokoliam59 1 year ago
Dharma Protectors main functions are to protect Buddhadharma, clear obstacles that prevent practitioners from their spiritual realizations, and to arrange all necessary conditions for their practice. In essence, HHDL is a monk wishing to spread dharma. Both have same mission.
zamzam24388 1 year ago
If they have the same mission, why is the Dalai Lama interfering with the spreading of Buddhadharma by banning the practice of Dorje Shugden?
The prasangikas would make a laughing stock out of the 'don't criticise the Dalai Lama because he's a holy being spreading the Dharma' views being expressed on this page! Your view makes no logical sense and is contrary to the Dalai Lama's actions.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
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ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏཱ་རེ་སྭ་ཧ་ ༑ Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svoha
Tara bless all beings
Today instead of fighting
Please consider the children in the mountains
Auspicious losar protect them
Mother Tara hold them
May the million Buddhas come as soft snowflakes
No bullets rip, no batons hit, no soldiers kill.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏཱ་རེ་སྭ་ཧ་ ༑ Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svoha
TibetHeart 1 year ago
after reading your comments.
i find it difficult to accept that Dalai Lama is lying and/or Dorje Shugden is a fake/demon
there must be something more that what has been posted. can someone enlighten me?
jayasina 1 year ago
I know this is unpalatable for people to accept, but quite simply, the Dalai Lama is lying and using Dharma for political purposes.
This is the whole reason why the Dorje Shugden controversy started in the first place.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
"A protector who exhibits a worldly aspect yet is in fact indivisible from Manjusri Yamantaka is this very Dharma Protector, Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden".
From: MUSIC DELIGHTING THE OCEAN OF PROTECTORS, written by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, the tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama
pathseeker9 1 year ago
Trijang Dorjechang speaks the truth, the 14th Dalai Lama speaks lies.
How could it be clearer that the DL is not a holy being?
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Amazing video! Thanks for posting. I just wish people could see this footage and set a different mindset and view on both protector and DL.
They're meant to help each other to fulfill one thing, their passion which is to spread the Dharma.
harrynephew 1 year ago
Lineage - thank you for this video. It brought tears to my eyes. The monk speaks from the heart and is so sincere. May Dorje Shugden's lineage spread through wonderful Sangha and those who trust in him. Thanks also for the link to the wisdombuddhadorjeshugden . org site. Cool.
KacheMarp0 1 year ago
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I found a prayer there composed by the current Dalai Lama (the 14th Dalai Lama) with the title: Melody of the Unceasing Vajra.
Now, why is it that Dalai Lama recognise Dorje Shugden as a Buddha and then later said he was wrong and that his Gurus was wrong?
Sunny62Day 1 year ago
I personally believe that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and that Dalai Lama couldn't have made a mistake.
Sunny62Day 1 year ago
I love this video. This monk has obviously gone through so much, during the exile and now with the ban. It is so inspiring to see that he still hold steadfast his practice in Dorje Shugden despite how much hurt he has experienced due to HHDL's words and action.
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
On average, life expectancy for Tibetan men is about 70. It used to be around 35! gosh!
HHDL was born on 6 July 1935. U do the math if Dorje Shugden is a treat to DL's life.
TheDharmaKnight 1 year ago
Hello?!!! I dont see any threat in the Dalai Lamas life. He looks healthy and strong, and able to travel around the world giving dharma talks and the banning of DS practice. I suppose H.H. life is not shorten at all. In fact, from my point of view, DS has definitely help H.H. thru his reign.
kokoliam59 1 year ago
negative speech, sure sounds like it coming from such a prominent figure such as HHDL. Imagine if during the election for the american president obama stood in front of national television and annouced to the WORLD his policy of discrimination. No leader no matter how big or small would ever do this in this day and age.Yet HHDL does why? What would be the results of such an open and vehement denial of the DS practice.
daBigmouth75 1 year ago
We've seen the results of his vehement denial of DS practice - ostracism, a schism in the Sangha, hatred, intolerance and violence. You seem to think the Dalai Lama is worthy of admiration for being openly hostile.
I find that strange. I admire people for love, compassion, openness, tolerance and non-sectarianism - the very qualities that the Dalai Lama talks about but never practices.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
I don't think the fact HHDL would be speaking out against him in the future deterred DS from helping HHDL. Two points related to this: (1) As it has been pointed out on dorjeshugden{DOT}com, DS can bear the burden of the criticism (2) If DS knew that ultimately, ppl were going to be harmed from not receiving DS practice because of what HHDL says, he wouldn't have saved HHDL. So perhaps the Dalai Lama is working hand-in-hand with DS to promote the practice, through seemingly negative speech?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
The fact Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's life also points to his enlightened nature because if he knew the Dalai Lama was going to speak out against him, then why bother saving him? Why not let him die, so he WOULDN'T have the burden of so famous a lama criticising him? Because he doesn't care about who criticises him, because he is enlightened. No matter what people say about him, he has no ego and will still help them if they need help.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
@Lineageholder - I've been posting on your video for a while now but I've never actually thanked you for putting it up. Your video shows that DS really is a kind protector who is compassionate to all. Even though, with his omniscience, he would've known that the Dalai Lama was going to speak out against him, he STILL helped the Dalai Lama. It stands to reason that no matter what a being says about him, he will still help if they need help and if they have the karma to be helped.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
I won't ever lose faith in HHDL he has done more for the world this century than all the politcial leaders combined.
While it may look this way now I'm sure he knows what hes doing. Why am I sure, because how can a motivation of compassion ever cause a negative result. And while it may not look it now, i won't lose faith in the long term future.
Tq HHDL, Tq DS, Tq:)
daBigmouth75 1 year ago
The Dalai Lama's actions do not exhibit compassion, quite the opposite. The DL is harming others - how is that compassion?
Your conclusion that everything will be alright is just vain hope.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
whats your conclusion then? everyone is going to go to hell? thats your vain hope? please and since when were you a qualified person to judge a high lama?
Do you believe there can be harm as an act of compassion, on a low level there is a parent for a child, then on a social level, jail for a criminal. Wouldn't you restrain and imprison a murderer if need be by force?
daBigmouth75 1 year ago
You have a point there. To all the people who criticise him, how much have THEY achieved themselves? How many people have they brought to the dharma?
I guess the same argument can be applied to DS lamas - to the people who criticise those lamas, they should first check how much benefit they themselves have brought to others. Lamas like Gangchen Rinpoche, who constantly benefit others through his healing centres, etc - can you match that?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
Hmmmm.... I also read the same thing in a translated excerpt of the Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography. So strange that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche also says not to loose faith in the Dalai Lama as well. Well, if anybody interested in these texts can read it in dorjeshugden(dot)com.
closerelative 1 year ago
We should have faith in someone who harms others? Then why not have faith in Pol Pot or any number of despots throughout history?
Lineageholder 1 year ago
Because Pol Pot harmed everyone; the Dalai Lama benefits many people and appears to harm a few. In any case, during trance, Dorje Shugden always says to respect the Dalai Lama, and not to lose faith. Are you saying that Dorje Shugden is wrong? How can one of his answers be wrong, and everything else be right?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
The Dalai Lama is harming more people than you know. Harming people spiritually is worse than genocide.
Also, I don't trust oracles, I trust wisdom.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
And please note I said 'appears', because people do not have to act on his words. People should take responsibility for their actions. If someone wants to pick up a rock and throw it at a DS monk, it is their choice to do that - it's not as though they had the Dalai Lama standing behind them, forcing them to pick up the rock. Therefore it is also that person's karma to bear, not the Dalai Lama's.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
Tibetan have no choice but to act on his words. They are forced to swear an oath to give up the practice and not to have anything to do with Shugden practitioner on pain of being ostracised from society. The DL does not give anyone choice, that's simply propaganda.
The Dalai Lama bears responsibility for all their broken vows and commitments to their Gurus.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
I believe that people should respect each other's personal choice, and not throw it in one another's faces. If you want to practise, fine, go ahead and practise and make sure you do it well. If you don't want to practise, fine, go ahead and don't practise but make sure you do your other practices well...in the case of those Radio City anti-DS people, practising a teaching they had just received!
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
That's why I have great respect for some Dorje Shugden practitioners who just want to practise and forget about the politics of the issue. Those people realise that at the end of the day, when they die, the politics of the issue will not matter to their rebirths. What will matter is how well they practised the teachings of their gurus without causing harm and distress to others.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
It's wrong to be concerned only with oneself. The preservation of Buddha's pure teachings in this world is more important than even one's own life.
What about the Dalai Lama causing harm and distress to others? Should we not try to stop him?
I'm practising my Guru's teachings by trying to protect the lineage of these teachings. I care about future generations of Dharma practitioners.
Lineageholder 1 year ago
@Lineageholder I think you can try to stop him by not reacting to him, just like how everyone should not react to him if it is a practice given to them by their root gurus.
Anyway, there is a difference between practising and actively criticising the Dalai Lama because face it, he HAS helped a lot of people. And by destroying his reputation, you are destroying many people's chances of entering the dharma. Why would they want to enter Buddhism if they see we can even get along?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
@Lineageholder Why would anyone practise a religion that does not promote harmony? There won't be future generations of Dharma practitioners if we do not start with ourselves now.
There is also a difference between promoting Dorje Shugden and actively criticising the Dalai Lama. If Dorje Shugden himself never criticises, why should any of his practitioners?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
@Lineageholder Btw, I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong in trying to stop harm and distress being cause to others, because the ban has led to that in many cases. However, we don't know the end result of the ban and we don't know what the Dalai Lama's motivation is; we don't have the attainments to judge. I think it's wonderful (really, I do!) you're doing this for the sake of others but when we jump into the politics ourselves, are we really keeping the dharma pure for future generations?
DharmaDefender 1 year ago
@DharmaDefender those are very good points and I'd also like to add that as laypeople, how qualified are we really to be able to judge and criticise the actions of the lamas and practices which are thousands of years old?
It is said we cannot tell if someone is a buddha, even if they're right in front of us. We shud remember this in all our actions and be careful not to judge, as we could be directly criticising an enlightened being which can be dangerous for our own practice.
TheRedNiece 1 year ago
It really goes back to the issue of blind faith - do you believe in karma? If so, people who take sides on the issue wouldn't behave the way that they do. Furthermore, are you doing something because your guru told you to, or because you feel it is valid? Take the protest videos of Radio City, and those Buddhists coming out of a teaching on compassion. If they really did believe in the teachings and felt them to be valid, they wouldn't have reacted in anger to the DS protestors outside.
DharmaDefender 1 year ago