Is Jesus God or a god? Stafford's Rebuttal 1

[abbyguy]

Jesus IS God, the Son. He in heaven lets all the glory go to His father. But He is as worthy of worship as the Father is.

[steveparadise1]

Stafford: Concise, accurate, biblical. Well said

White: Sidestepping, dancing, unbiblical

[clevelandshero23]

the trinity is not biblical the holy spirit is not a person and Jesus is not equal to Jehovah because Jehovah is his God and Jesus also said that the father is greater than him

[abbyguy]

@clevelandshero23: Jesus never ever said Jehovah was His Father or God, not once.

Look up Hebrews 1:10 tell me who is being described here please? Then look at the cross reference in your bible, I believe it's reference "e" second colomn. It tells you to refer to Psalms 102:25. Examine who it is referring to and let me know please?

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@abbyguy John 20:17

[abbyguy]

@IvanDefendingTruth: He called Hi Father His God, NOT Jehovah. Can you tell me the answer to my question please?

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@abbyguy Right, so if the Father is Jesus' God how can you then turn around and say that he is God? Does God have a God above him?

[abbyguy]

@IvanDefendingTruth: I never said that. I said that Jesus is God the Son, the second part of the triune God. There is also the Holy Spirit which is personified many places in scripture, but that is a seperate discussion. Once again,can you answer my question please: Look at Hebrews 1:10 the cross reference in your bible, I believe it's reference "e" second colomn. It tells you to refer to Psalms 102:25. Examine who it is referring to and let me know please?

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@abbyguy Jehovah. However, the author Hebrews quotes the LXX, not the MT. in the LXX, God is here addressing a second Lord which many scholars have regarded to be Pre-existent Wisdom.

[abbyguy]

@IvanDefendingTruth: the one being spoken of in Hebrews is Jesus and it is using the reference to Isaiah because Jews would recognise who the were referring to, in effect calling Jesus, Jehovah. Never mind the rest where Jesus is described as NOT being AN ANGEL. But that two is off topic.

Unless you have the Holy Spirit you can not understand scripture properly so I am just wasting my time with you. I'll pray for you. Tell me, can you be saved without the Watchtowers guidance?

[aservantofjehovah]

where trinitarian logic constantly misses the bus is its failure to distinguish between sense and reference. For instance At Mathew23:9KJV we read"And call no man your father upon:for one is your father ,which is in heaven" so we have one Father Jehovah.Yet at James2:21KJV we read "was not Abraham our father Justified by works.."If we attempt consistently apply trinitarian logic throughout the

scriptures we would be forced to conclude that Abraham is Jehovah.

[babystinky]

IF Jehovah is just "Unity" then it really means his essence is not Love. How could his essence be love? IF he decided to continue his existence by himself all alone, then love would only be dependent upon him creating others. So it is not part of his essential nature. If on the other hand he is more then Unity, then indeed his essence is Love and then we can say ...God is Love.

[aservantofjehovah]

@babystinky why would Jehovah's love of self not be love.

[aservantofjehovah]

John17:3KJV"And this is life eternal that they might Know Thee(i.e Jehovah,the God and father of Jesus)the ONLY TRUE GOD,and Jesus whom thou hast sent forth.John20:17KJV"Jesus saith unto her touch me not ;for I am not yet ascended to my father;but go to my brethren,and say unto them,I ascend unto my father, and your father(i.e our father);and to my GOD, and your GOD(i.e our GOD)

[aservantofjehovah]

O.k so you don't believe the trinity what do you believe?

[aservantofjehovah]

In other words no single student or member of staff can rightly be referred to as THE university.

[aservantofjehovah]

Someone gives you a parcel and request that you hand it to THE man wearing THE red shirt.But upon looking in front of you.you notice that there are three gentlemen all wearing red shirts.What is likely to happen next?

[aservantofjehovah]

at exodus3:1-4 Moses refers to the angel of Jehovah as God even Jehovah. an account Thomas would be quite familiar with.See also judges13:21,22

[aservantofjehovah]

the expression at 1Samuel in the KJV is addressed to David to be consistent David must be the LORD God of Israel.

[antonikruja]

I think when you read the bible you don't want to accept what it is written, or you just want to ignore it.

tell which prophet sad I am the beginning and the end, who can claim that except God.

I am the resurrection and live, only God is that, Jesus said that.

I and the Father are one, Jesus said.

Jesus accepted worship from Thomas.

Jesus said that He will come to judge with the Glory of His Father in the end of the world.

Jesus forgave sins, only God can forgive sins.

[aservantofjehovah]

@antonikruja John20:17NASB"Jesus said to her,stop clinging to me,for I have not yet ascended to the father; but go to my BRETHREN, and say to them,I ascend to my father and your father(i.e our father),and my God and your God (i.e our God)"1samuel20:12KJV"And Jonathan said to David,O LORD God of Israel..."if Thomas's words were addressed to anyone else would there even be an issue?

[robotwookie]

The problem is that they were directly addressed to Jesus. 'The Lord of me and The God of me' in the Greek. This cannot be avoided. I am a former JW and this scripture hit very hard when I realized The Societies way of diffusing it was ridiculous...

[aservantofjehovah]

@robotwookie According to trinitarian Dogma the single being of God consists of the three persons of God So even in trinitarian terms no single member of the trinity can be The God.Or that would mean that the Godhead consists of three Gods rather than merely three persons.

[robotwookie]

I would say you are playing a game of semantics that holds little weight. If in The Trinity, there are three persons in one being, you would absolutely be justified in calling The Son 'My God' or in Greek 'The God of me'. What else would you refer to God as? To avoid this is to perform mental gymnastics. Either Jesus is his God or he is not. What does the text say? Jesus is his God....And please don't go to the many Lords and many Gods bit. It holds no weight either.He WORSHIPED, not obeisance

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Robotwookie, Thomas is accurate when he called Jesus "my God and my Lord", but Christ is equally accurate when in John 17:20 he explicitly says he has a God just as we have a God.

Jehovah doesn't have a God above him, yet Christ does.

[robotwookie]

I would cross reference Hebrews 1:8 where The Father calls Jesus 'O, God'. Now of course The NWT changed it to 'God is your throne' for obvious reasons. The problem is that 'God is your throne' makes absolutely no sense what so ever. Jesus sits on The Father or himself? Unitarian or Trinitarian, it's garbage. I would recommend you look at how scholars are dumbfounded how they translated it that way. They tried so hard to deny the obvious that they created a passage that is almost blasphemous...

[Newagegamer3018]

@IvanDefendingTruth Is Jesus your Lord and God? In Hebrews 1:10 God the Father calls the Son, Jehovah.

[aservantofjehovah]

@Newagegamer3018 in the quote from psalms102 the speaker is the psalmist not Jehovah verse11KJV says"My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass." obviously not Jehovah.And Jesus would be lord and God in the sense of being Jehovah's highest ranking representative.Not in the sense of being the original God he himself declares that Jehovah is his God John20:17

[aservantofjehovah]

@Newagegamer3018 Also at psalms102:25 the divine name does not appear.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@Newagegamer3018 I accept Jesus as my Lord and God relative to his position to his Lord and God, but I'd like to ask where in Hebrews 1:10 does the father call the Son, "Jehovah"?

[Newagegamer3018]

@IvanDefendingTruth So if you accept Jesus as your God, yet seperate from nature to God the Father, that would make you a polytheist would it not?

And Hebrews 1:10 God is quoting Psalm 102:25,26 in reference to the Son. Originally the psalmist directed this praise to the Creator who "laid the foundation of the earth" and maker of the heavens. The NT writer inserts the word "Kurious"(Lord) into the text, and according to the WT, when Lord is inserted during a OT quotation, you must add YHWH.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@Newage No I said 'relative to his position to his Lord and God.' I don't see it a problem with Jesus being God relative to his position. Jesus isn't in some sort of competition to Jehovah, so I don't know how that can even be classified as polytheism, especially when they don't receive the same sort of worship. Moreover, if you were to maintain that position you would have to at least say that the Jews are polytheistic for viewings angels as deities.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@Newagegamer3018 Where exactly does the Society say that when Kyrios is inserted in an Old Testament quotation, that "you must add YHWH"?

[aservantofjehovah]

then the the God head is made up of three gods and not merely three persons as trinitarians claim and trinitarians are really tri-theists.

[robotwookie]

Really? How is that exactly? Have you ever heard of the term University? Unity within diversity? Neither one of us could possibly comprehend what is possible when it comes to God so quite with the logical fallacy my friend. This coming from someone who thinks Jesus is an angel when Hebrews 1:5,13 clearly says he is not.

[aservantofjehovah]

apparently you don't understand your own teaching.a university is a union of distinct beings.the godhead is supposed to be a single lifeform/being.if each member of the trinity is a distinct being/god.then logically the godhead would consist of three gods the only way to get around this is for each member of the trinity to be merely 1person and not 1god.Indeed this is what trinitarian apologist claim.

[robotwookie]

First it's not my teaching. I am not a strict trinitarian. I understand peoples apprehension with the idea. I still have it. We have three that are called God and The Bible says there is one God. That is why they have this belief. The only thing that I'm concerned about right now is who is Jesus Christ? Well, The Bible says he is my Lord and my God, my only way to salvation, and I am to worship him and honor him exactly as I do The Father. So, that is what I do. Do you do these things?

[aservantofjehovah]

Not a strict trinitarian? what does that mean exactly?

[robotwookie]

It means that The Bible in no place say you must believe in The Trinity to be saved. We would agree on that. If it were that important, don't you think they would have mentioned it? The N.T. is not about Dogma as much as it is about the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and The redemption of God. When early Christians were baptized, they weren't stopped and asked, do you believe in Trinity or don't you know you can't understand scripture unless you read The Watchtower? Of course not...

[aservantofjehovah]

That's not quite what I was looking for.What are your beliefs with regard to the trinity?

[robotwookie]

Well, I would say that the groundwork is definitely there. That is why from the first century on they thought of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one substance (and believe me, they actually did which was a surprise to me). As far as my beliefs, The Father is obviously God. Jesus is deity (thus must be God by deduction) and The Holy Spirit is not a mindless 'active force'. I think it is fair for people to come to the obvious conclusion. Some things are just tough to figure out my friend...

[aservantofjehovah]

That's vague.But it sounds a lot like mainstream trinitarian thought.How would you say your Ideas about the trinity differ from the mainstream.

[robotwookie]

I never said I profess The Trinity. I said I understand why they believe it with what scripture says. I think it is very possible. That is why I mentioned my focus on Christology only. Everything TWBATS says is out the window if Jesus is not Michael. He is not thus I left. Of course, there is a lot more to why but Christ was a major point....That isn't to say I don't have problems with Christianity...

[Sabianfan]

Again 5***** brother !

[tonyschmoeredux]

Hi  Ivan the Truthable !

[Yuratchka]

Good rebuttal.