The election of the Father is not universal, the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not Universal.... then why would the atonement of the Son be universal? that would put the Persons of the Trinity completely at odds with one another , but the Triune God is completely unified!
John 17:6-10 its there God is God we should worship at his feet for revealing to us through the power of the Holy Spirit who Jesus is, and who we are in him ( perfect and spotless in the fathers sight)Ephesians1:4-7
2 points... 1) Why do you name your channel "moderate Calvinism" when you are an arminian? 2) Why do you call your website "divinesoteriology" when you dont even believe in divine soteriology but rather salvation conditoned on the sinner?
@joejohnson043 you are a slanderer. I do not even read or follow John Calvin. I have nothing on my website by John Calvin. You appeal to John Calvin as a scapegoat because you hate the one true and living God who has "mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." - Romans 9 v 18. The Word of God says "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10 v 18 ... think about that!
@Testallthings where's the slander? It was a question. If you don't follow Calvin, then why label everyone that doesn't submit to that heresy as an 'arminian'. Do you think the word of God was obscured from all men's understanding until the year 1536? Poor disciples, sure they got to walk with Jesus, but they didn't know anything about what was going on like we do now, thanks to Calvin.....
Luke 10:24 "For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."
I guess this verse was really meant for Calvin's disciples...........
@joejohnson043 you are a slanderer. I do not even read or follow John Calvin. I have nothing on my website by John Calvin. You appeal to John Calvin as a scapegoat because you hate the one true and living God who has "mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." - Romans 9 v 18. The Word of God says "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10 v 18 ... think about that!
*continued; furthermore the Bible is a sound doctrine of pratical knowledge that has been established forever, jus ast christians are a sensible intelligible right minded people with a correct way of thinking wherein atheist are a godless people who conform to the ways and teaching of this world, well in actuality we all do but the main point that christians are mindful of the things of God and should strive to abide by his laws
look up the word in greek... you will find that this was actually meaning the galexy... kassmos. But it was symbolic for the heathen...
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
your greek lexacon will direct to such... the non jews... the context is completely what matters... Nicodimus asked the questions... and Jesus spoke, Nicodimus, pharassee, "you have to be born again (john 3:3)..." This was forine to him... now
Continued: the word "world" here is meant to mean people from all nations, not just the Jews. They called those outside fo themselves the "WORLD." Strong's says this is the meaning we should apply here. Does this mean that only God's elect will be saved? Yes, I do agree with that. But, the word "elect" does not fit here. It means the "world" including Jews and non-Jews -- ANYONE who believes In Jesus WILL BE SAVED. Amen and God Bless.
I just saw your video here and wanted to give you something else to think about concerning the use of the word "world" as you were mentioning the "morphology" of the word. Historical criticism is very important here. "World" has 8 meanings as used in the KJV (see Strong's Concordance for all 8 meanings) -- iow -- when Caeser says to take a cencus of the "world," he didn't mean the ENTIRE population of the planet. According to Strong's concordance, John 3:16's "world" is meant to mean -- Continue
No The word 'world' in Jonh 3:16 isn't 'The Elect' it is however 'believers' only...go figure, that would actualy imply elect. You might want to go on down a couple verses and read the text in context too. Where do these people come from who 'do good deeds and want to step into the light'? Doesnt the Bible also say there are NONE who do right?
The death of Jesus is an expression of his love to the whole world and is sufficient to save the whole world should the whole world respond in faith. However the Bible also says only the elect will respond and see it through to the end. So his death is an expression of love for the world, any one who responds in faith will be saved, but God knew who they would be so it is right also to say he died only for the elect. He potentially dies for the whole world but effectively dies for the elect.
@fractalfires "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them"
VVhich law? As I just pointed out to the other one, you have a commandment to honor your father n mother, yet your bejebusses tells you to abandon them??
How doth thy relate vvhich to follow? Two laws of your Godt, that directly contradict each other. Seriously, open your eyes to the frauds they are.
I find it ironic this video attempts to make claims on a passage that has absolutely NO evidence to back that...1. God actually exists. 2. If god exists that sending your 'only son' to be tortured and killed on a cross is a sign of love and ultimate sacrifice, especially if that son was...god. It makes NO sense whatsoever to send 'yourself' to be tortured and killed and claim it is a sign of love and sacrifice if you KNEW you would 'really' die.
@StarPathOne thats were you are mistaken! God is three in one essence for example: The sun has three functions but is one sun, The three functions are: The sun itself, the heat it produces and lastly the light that comes forth from it! God: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit all in one. very simple and true!
@Mikemoms...if it was true, there would be proof. To date, there is not a SINGLE shred of proof for any god, Jesus, any miracle, or any supernatural concept. Period. So, until you can provide such proof, your CLAIMS are only a big fat GUESS.
That's right. Your faith is nothing more than a delusional GUESS.
@StarPathOne Guess?? I'd call it more along the lines of the Jim Jones cult partaking in a drink of koolaide. Just take it in without any thought. Hope, maybe in the ideas forced by the sword but guess?
If people were raised without one notion of thsoe fraud stories, they certainly wouldn't be guessing them as told.
@StarPathOne We are living in the year 2011! 2011 years ago Our Christ Jesus was born! Must be something important to start the years after the birth of one man? His grave site remains, his apostles letters are there for us as a testimony, the spot of his crucifiction remains etc. the proof is everywhere, ask the 5 billion people in this world who believe! And yes the romans were using armies to protect themselves in the fifth century from the growing race of muslim to protect the Christians.
@mikemoms - I also find it highly ironic you try to make the analogy of god and the Sun. Judeo-Christian religions came directly from pagan sun worship concepts, hence why thousands of OTHER assumed deities have had the same characteristics as the Jesus myth. Attis, Dionysus, Horus, Buddha, Krishna, Apollo, Mithra, Zeus, etc....they had similar features - Born of a virgin, walked on water, healed the sick, had 12 disciples, called the Alpha and Omega, crucified, resurrected 3 days later, etc.
@StarPathOne "I also find it highly ironic you try to make the analogy of god and the Sun."
Yep, and then the majority of them think the holy day is the first day of the week. It was minor details like that, that gave me the incentive to go seek out why there are so many nonsense themes in their script.
@ISamuelII That is good!! Keep seeking and you will find! That is each and every one of our duties if we want to live. Good for you go right to the root and you will see.
@StarPathOne let me correct you my friend because you seem uneducated and just speak out of the hate in your heart towards the truth. 1: Buddah had a mother and a father and yes his mother was a virgin who was married like everyone else and had relations with her husband and had a kid (buddah) he vever walked on water. did help the poor and supplied medicine, never called alpha omega and never crucified and he died at the year of 80! Apolo had many wives and slept with many men. i can tellumore!
@mikemoms - I never said they ALL had the same attributes dumbass. Pay attention. I know the story of Buddha. I know the story of Horus, and all the others. The Jesus myth was simply a compilation of all these previous myths. So, sorry, you are still out of luck. If we KNOW all the other gods were myths, there is NO REASON to think the Jesus story is not a myth as well. So, unless you can provide ANY proof of your assumed god, you have NO point whatsoever. Got proof?
@StarPathOne Horus defeated Set by putting his secret man sauce on Set's cabbage, buddha is a statue of a fat guy, he has ears but cannot hear, eyes but cannot see wherein Jesus was the savior, "the sword that came to save the world" the LIVING God, who transcends all understanding, most certainly knew that these would not be possible to prove thousands of years later, therefor emphasized on faith (faith is a sureness in what you hope for and a certainty in what you cannot see) >continued
@mikemoms Three in one??? DYou do realize if your godt was the same as the christ, you are talking incest with Mother Mary. Is it okay for your godt to fuck his momma? That is what you are suggesting with your trinity nonsense.
@ISamuelII Why would you think incest? God created the earth, what makes you think he cannot make a women pregnant without body? he even created eve, just incase you did not know. He does thing spiritually and physically, he can do anything, because he is the creator of all and the Father of all! That means me and you and your wife that is if your married, are brothers and sisters. LOL incest?
your forgettin that he also taught us how to make it into his kingdom which is what matters the most in this time on this earth. He set an example for his people! He showed his disciples the whole truth so that they may proclaim it to the world which only had 160 million people at the time. Why do you think the 95% of greeks converted from the pagan gods to the real God? Why is it so hard to believe that God loved us so much that he sacrificed his only Son for us? Did his Son not conquer death?
@mikemoms - False. They converted because the Romans were KILLING them as infidels if they did not. Um, if you have PROOF he did these things, then show it....otherwise you are just spewing rhetorical nonsense like a blathering parrot. THERE IS NO PROOF OF JESUS AT ALL...face it. Nothing, nada, zero, zilch, zip, not a single shred of proof. Likewise, there is NO PROOF of ANY disciple, so using them as "eye witnesses" is a nonsequitor.
Funny I'm from the second oldest city in the world (Damascus,Syria) and the proof of Jesus is everywere here, You live in the new world, the world of confusion and deceit, you know and see nothing of history and the events that took place, you are lost and only go by words!!! I go by proof and its all around there. Go to the root and you will see and understand, don't let the zeal in your heart blind you. Try going to these places that took place in the time of Jesus like i did!proof is there!
@mikemoms - Funny, because there is NOTHING in Damascus that would stand as "actual" proof. Name ONE thing that would constitute as "proof"...I defy you.
As for 'knowing the history', there is NO history other than the MYTHS written in the bible, and a few associated texts that have largely been documented to be forgeries. (Josephus and others).
As for 'going to these places of the time of Jesus'....once again, there is NOTHING in the Middle East, or ANYWHERE that contains absolute proof.
@StarPathOne You want one thing, O.K., the head of John the Baptist still remains for you to see in a temple in Damascus. I've got all kinds for you, but you are so busy trying to deny the truth that it makes you look very lost like a puupy in the middle of a highway. You obviously never read the bible because Jesus did claim he came to this world to save the sinners, Try reading for once in your life and you might learn instead of talking like a 2 year old!
@mikemoms - LOL!!! And how, praytell, do you know it is really John the Baptist? LOL
The story of John the Baptist was taken from the Egyptian story of Anup the Baptizer. Likewise, the story of Moses was taken from the Egyptian story of Meses, etc.
There is absolutely NO PROOF that is John the B, just as the Shroud of Turn was shown to be fake.
You simply do not understand the difference between a hoax, and proof. There have been more forgeries in attempt to prove Jesus than we can count.
@StarPathOne LOL Anup? There is nothing to trace his lineage or even any sources that he even existed. Unknown source can directly be equated to one of two things, word of mouth or author made it up. I’ve looked all over for indication that anup is of royal decent, I have yet to find any.
As for mises, Mises is an Egyptian verb that means out of. Egyptian Pharaohs often took this as part of their name together with the name of one of the God's from their pantheon(Satan). He is made up also!
@mikemoms - Likewise, the bible is NOT proof of itself anymore than Dr. Seuss's "Cat In the Hat" is proof of a talking car that wears a hat.
I need to read?? I've read the bible in Greek, Hebrew AND Latin. I've studied it as a scholar for over 20 years and debated it formally thousands of times.
The fact is, you do not know what circular logic is. Otherwise, you would not claim the bible is proof of itself.
@StarPathOne Albert Einstein QUOTES: Religion without Science is blind and Science without Religion is Lame." Now if you say you are smarter than Albert Einstein than you need to check yourself in a hospital! He speaks about the Lord and he knew! You say you"ve formally debated? With who Kids? THOUSANDS of time? you must be extremly busy, to learn hebrew, greek and latin then to read hebrew, greek and latin and to understand then to study with scholars then debate it THOUSANDS of time?? Wow!
@StarPathOne einstein did believe in a God, you are spun buddy! I really think you need to read a book. No match? What kind of skills are you talkin about? you have not showed me evidence of anything you are saying, your answers are childish. So tell me then great one where did this earth come from? Please astonish me!
@mikemoms - "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, University Press
"From a correspondence between Ensign Guy H. Raner and Albert Einstein in 1945 and 1949. Einstein responds to the accusation that he was converted by a Jesuit priest: "I have never talked to a Jesuit prest in my life. I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."
I’m sorry, does the bible not count as a recorded history? Just need to clarify this. If you read the Bible thousands of times, then you would know were in the O.T. it would be found! You are so busy trying to proove it wrong that i think that you do not know what circular logic is. Have fun trying to prove the Bible wrong, it will take you a lifetime like many others in the past and got nowhere, while I journy back home to were i came from with our Father who promised it to all. PARADISE!!
Oh there is, you just need to open your eyes! He did it for an example for us to make it to his kingdom, and also Jesus died in the flesh not in spirit then ressurected, tha example shows us that your soul never dies and he showed us how to go home!!!!!!!!!!!! That is one reason why he sent his only son, and also that he loves his creation just like how you would love your son that your seed produced.
"God is Love" (1 John 4:8)...but HE is under no obligation to love everyone 'the same'... Deut. 7:6-7,Romans 9,Eph. 2:4...
conclusion:
God does so love the world ...(John 3:16, Matt. 5:45)... declare this, as well as His perfect wrath which will come 2 everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.
...God's love cannot be isolated from His holiness, justice n' wrath or vice versa...
But does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner that it's expressed???... ABSOLUTELY.
I believe that John 3:16 is universal, common love. Not just for the elect. But I also believe that there's more to the story.. there's a deeper, efficacious love that God has that accomplishes the conversion of the individual on whom it is placed - a love attested to several verses earlier in John 3:8. I do not side with those who say that God only loves the elect. That's not true. God doesn't delight in the death of the wicked. He has a common love for all men.
The word ... World...or Cosmos Really refers to God's Kingdom. God Loves his kingdom so much that He sent His Son to take His Earthly Kingdom back from the devil and put it back under the Authority of Humanity through Jesus who became Human. I will make a Video to reinforce this Point. Thank You so much for bringing this Point out.
Thanks MC, I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. When I read the Bible, I typically try and read it in it's plain sense, unless it makes no sense.
John 3:16 makes very plain sense without the Calvinist slant on it. I love my Calvinist friends, but, even after being reared in a Calvinist church and believing Calvinism for a few years, the Bible simply doesn't teach what they want it to teach.
Your definition of the "world" in John 3:16 should NOT contradict Jesus' statements in John chapter 6. That means you might interpret "the world" as meaning "people from all over the world and not just Jerusalem." One thing we moderns forget is that the apostles had to TEACH a TOTALLY NEW idea. That was that God was KNOW going to save people from ALL OVER THE WORLD and not just near the Jewish temple! John 6 demolishes Arminianism.
When the Lord Jesus in His high prayer says in John17:9 "I am praying for them. I am NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."
I don't see Jesus praying on behalf of cosmic inanimate objects but interceding on behalf of men. A VERY particular group of men that HE CHOSE. If the world is at enmity with God why doesn't Jesus intercede with the Father on their behalf? Do you notice in scripture what the Lord Jesus opinion of "the world" is?
@RMCDisciple Context defines terms.. You cannot use a term from another context to define how it is used in John 3:16-17. That is why people who used Antioch hermeneutics say context is king.. Syntax and morphology are the keys to unlocking the proper interpretation.. Those are the starting point.. Well, the purpose of the letter is actually the starting point, but from there syntax, and morphology take over..
@MODERATECALVINISM Are you willing to concede that it is possible that in John 3:16 John can be speaking of a particular group since the same Greek word, Strong's (2889), is used and that definition includes:
8) any aggregate or general collection of PARTICULARS of any sort a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
Sounds like you're saying that unless you do linguistic gymnastics the believer is unable to understand the Bible from a plain reading of the text?
@RMCDisciple Strongs Anyone who is not a calvinist... Which is everyone until they are taught calvinism... Believes the world to be speaking of the actual world... But for those who claim it to be otherwise, it is very helpful to point to the syntax, and morphology. The simple reading of the text is the arminian or moderate calvinist reading.. One has to be taught the calvinist reading..
Satan is the god of worlds while God is the God of worlds. They are different realms, so to speak.
Jesus came to save a world (the world, the real). Jesus came into and comes into the world (false-hearted) where Satan reigns, but Jesus was not and is not of that world.
If I just take the verse and not compare it with ALL scripture then I must hate my family as Luke 14:26 says..... But he word as a whole IN CONTEXT says different. It is your presupposition that dictates your interpretation of that verse without regards to the context of the bible as a whole. "God so loved the world"...2 Co 5:19 tells us who the world is.."Them" not "It".
2Co 5:19 "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation".This verse goes along with Jn. 3:16 and it's obvious that "world" is not the universe because the UNIVERSE did not trespass. Also the world and universe cannot be saved for it will be destroyed and a NEW world will be created, we Christians will never die. When the world is spoken of in regards to salvation, it is man thats meant
Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple". Does this verse really teach us that we must hate? No, the word hate here is to contrast the love we must hold for God and is not to be taken literally as I believe the verse concerning Esau means also. He loved both, but compared to his love of Jacob his love of Esau was as hate.
Are you saying that God loves different people in different ways? That's reformed theology!
I will recommend you a book: The difficult doctrine of the love of God, by D.A. Carson (I said it before), so you can check what calvinists think. I am saying it because much of the things that you know about calvinists are said by arminians that... well... dramatize and twist it to look horrible. It's... normal, and I profoundly understand why they do it, and God is a forgiving God :)
No my friend, I'm not saying God loves different people in different ways, but he does FAVOR some more than others. The bible speaks of God favoring some people, but it never says he favors all the people. I am well aware of what Calvinists believe because my very best friend who lead me to Jesus many years ago is a staunch 5 point Calvinist. I am not an Arminian or Calvanist but I think Arminians are closer to the truth..much closer. God loves all and requires us to love our enemies.
@IndianaBullet Make all the excuses you like, you have been deceived, greatly deceived.
Did you know that order of your chrsit goes directly in opposition to the old testament commandment "to honor your father and mother,,,"?
Does a later suggestion of your christ over rule one of the top ten commandments? Have yuh evuh been to War? Every christian that went to war forgot to love thy enemy and instead go murder those they are told are their enemy. Oh! You have more excuses?
You say I have been deceived,in what way? And explain please dear friend the "honor your father and mother" statement. What opposition? We are to love our enemies AND justice. Does killing a Nazi in war to stop their atrocities mean I hate that Nazi? Does a judge who has to condemn his own son to death for murder (because that's what the law and justice requires) suddenly hate his son? No, he hates his crime but loves his son. Thou shall not MURDER is correct interpretation,not KILL.
@IndianaBullet "please dear friend the "honor your father and mother" statement"
if you are a christian you should never have had to ask, it is a commandment, one of the top ten commandments. Remember those? THEN bejebusses comes along and during one of its more manic moments wants his flock to abandon their father and mother and everyone else for him only. And please, you should know of that one as well, or you need to get into that book more often.
I haven't denied His omnibenevolence. I unlink the emotion of love from His omnibenevolence. It seems to me that there was something in the days of Noah that God didn't love. God hates sin and therefore destroyed a sinful world.That would have been "all good" rather than "all loving".
@MODERATECALVINISM Point being that God ALONE determined the size of the ark to be built and how many of his it would accommodate and as Matthew wrote "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
Does god know how many rooms to build in His heavenly mansion?
@RMCDisciple I am a bit confused.. You said "God so love the world that he sent a global flood". Which is an attempt to undermine the scripture that clearly states that God loves the world. I pointed out that you are denying the omnibenevolence of God. Your next response has to do with predestination.. Either you believe that God loves the world, and that He is omnibenevolent. Or you deny it, predestination is another subject.
IF it makes you all feel safe and out of harms way to think you saved yourself ....then so be it......I assure you the world is not saved.......I wish it were so ...but it is not
The truth is that God knows all things beforehand, and he knows those who will trhow in hell for all eternity, making them suffer under the holy wrath of a just God. So, his wrath will be on them for all eternity, why should he have ever loved... Hitler?
But the love of God is more complex, and it wouldn't be ok to say to unbelievers: God hates you. God loves his creation.
We should not forget that God hated Esau before he did good or evil.
@jboi116 - That's where you err. He is NOT talking about the person Esau in Romans 9. Look at Genesis 25: Two NATIONS are in your womb...Calvinists claim to have a corner on the theological market and yet they err in the simplest of concepts...Also, when did the older serve the younger? I'm waiting for any Calvinist to answer that question.
read what it says in the greek work meaning everyone then in the very next verse it says that whosoever beliveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ,he died for the whole world othewrwise God is a respect of persons which he isn't ,the world has got to acept what He did on the cross for them thats the whosoever
@fractalfires I think you misunderstood my response. I didn't see this and only saw what you had said to koldkase77, in which I was, as politely as I could, asking you to try to at least state your argument peacefully.
And I don't believe God hates sinners- he hates the sin. And we're to live the same way. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him" Would God command us to be UNLIKE him? I surely don't think so. Thanks
@GrImR3aP3r916 "And I don't believe God hates sinners- he hates the sin. "
Killing the sinner seems like a hate if there is any such thing as hate, if you asked me.
I can't believe mine eyes reading in here that some actually say that when they wrote down "hate" that they really didn't mean hate. Hate is a simla four letter word, that has very limited deffinition in the whole bible.
DUDE, DID YOU EVEN READ THE ARTICAL? LET ME CITE IT.
The world of John 3:16 (Greek: kosmos, from which comes our English word, cosmos, referring to our "orderly, harmonious, systematic universe") is the creation made by God in the beginning...
THEY DIDN'T INTERPRETE JOHN 3:16'S "THE WORLD" AS "THE ELECT". WHY DID YOU MISREPRESENT THEM? WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING THIS STRAWMAN? I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO INTERPRETES "THE WORLD" IN JOHN 3:16 AS "THE ELECT"!
Yes, they DENY that world in John 3:16 means EVERY HUMAN THAT EVER EXSITED, but that doesn't mean they accept that world means "the elect of God". Your sidestepping the FACT that you purposfully misrepresented them. NO CALVINIST I KNOW INTERPRETS the world in John 3:16 as THE ELECT.
STRAWMAN!
You changed what they said and attacked them for it. Attack them for rejecting omni-benevolence, but don't attack them for saying something they didn't say.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt How is it a strawman.. It is obvious you are not reading, here is yet another quote from those calvinist's
"The people who make up the world of John 3:16 are all those, and those only, who will become believers (whosoever believeth); and it is the elect who believe (Acts 13:48)."
Do modern calvinist's believe that Jesus was sent for the elect or the whole world? The elect of course, that is why they teach limited atonement. cont>
I don't know why you always try to defend the errors in calvinism. It is not a strawman, it was literally said by them they Jesus was sent for the those that believe, and those that believe are the elect. I suggest you read the entire article before attempting to defend their teaching.
That paragraph says world in John 3:16 is the created universe as a whole with the elect as its core.
Then speaking "as regards its people", it says what you cited.
You OVERSIMPLIFIED what was stated as to refute them. They still DID NOT SAY the world in John 3:16 is the elect. That is what you are arguing against in this video. Therefore, you were arguing against a STRAWMAN.
PS: Jesus died to redeem the whole universe, not EVERY HUMAN THAT EVER LIVED. The human part that is redeemed is the ELECT. And, what does Limited Atonement have to do with this topic? Talk about an irrelevant distraction.
PPS: Yes, Jesus was sent to redeem those that believe and the REST OF THE UNIVERSE WITH THEM. Those who do not believe are thrown away and consumed with FIRE. But, nothing in either of our statements say the world in John 3:16 is the elect.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt This post makes it very obvious that you did not read.. Here is the quote again
"and to preach and testify, near and far, in season and out of season, a love of God for the world that saves the world, a death of the Son of God that redeemed the world," obviously they are not defining world as I do, if they are then this reformed man is teaching universalism... You might ask him what atonement has to do with this topic.. But you would know if you actually read the article.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt You have got to be kidding.. Did you actually read the whole article before you wrote this post? It is obvious that you did not. They seen John 3:16 as God sending his son into the world for redemption (whosoever believes) based on that they claimed that it is only for a select few, because he redeems a select few..
God Bless.. btw stop claiming strawman, and actually read the article
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt If they did not define the "world" then this calvinist is teaching universalism
here is the quote, yet again..
"and to preach and testify, near and far, in season and out of season, a love of God for the world that saves the world, a death of the Son of God that redeemed the world"
I ask you, how is he defining world? Is all the world going to be saved? Is all the world going to be redeemed? He is defining world as the elect...
"The people who make up the world of John 3:16 are all those, and those only, who will become believers (whosoever believeth); and it is the elect who believe (Acts 13:48)."
He is defining the "world" in John 3:16 as the elect who believes.. Seriously.. stop trying to defend men who are clearly wrong, just because they come from your camp
The very paragraph that you cited last time defines how they are taking world.
THE WORLD of John 3:16 (Greek: kosmos, from which comes our English word, cosmos, referring to our "orderly, harmonious, systematic universe") IS THE CREATION MADE BY GOD IN THE BEGINNING, now disordered by sin, WITH THE ELECT from all nations, now by nature children of wrath even as the others, AS THE CORE OF IT.
It is defined. The definition is NOT the Elect. CASE CLOSED!
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt I don't believe you are reading the same article I am. Simply because within the first minute of reading you find the statement
"What then is the truth about the world of John 3:16? Loved by God with Divine, almighty, effectual, faithful, eternal love, the world is saved. All of it! All of them!"
He clearly make the statement that those whom God loves in 3:16 "are saved" "all of them". So if he means anyone other then the elect then you claim him to be a universalist.
Dude, world in John 3:16 DOES NOT POINT AT PEOPLE; it points at the CREATED UNIVERSE.
Yes, these guys have an interpresting perspective that addes the ELECT as to the CORE of the UNIVERSE that is LOVED, BUT they are still not interpreting cosmos as the Elect.
God Bless.
PS: You're twisting what they are saying. "Loved by God...the WORLD IS SAVED. All of IT!" not "those whom God loves 'are saved'". You're not reading it carefully enough.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt The author of that article says the "world" is saved.. Does that mean elect or the entire world? If it means the elect, then you have proven my point.. If it means the entire world, then you claim this calvinist to be a universalist. Pick your poison..
Bad dichotomy. World doesn't mean the elect or EVERY HUMAN BEING. It means the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.
Yes, the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE is saved by Jesus saving those who believe. Jump outside of your myopic perspective that interpets world in John 3:16 as a group of humans and INTERACT WITH WHAT WE ARE SAYING.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt We? Who is we? You are not following the author.. Every human being is part of the physical universe.. Thus you refute yourself.. Read the big bold print in the article. The author is refuting the people who "using this text against the confession of God's particular love for the elect to face up to the doctrinal position that they are taking".. The author believes the text to be speaking of a particular love for a particular people, the people who believe.. (elect)
Think before you speak. How do you save a vinyard? You prune the branches. How do you save a universe? By removing sin. He removes the sin of some by the Cross, thus saving humanity, and he removes the rest through judgement at the end of the age. Talk about not even trying to understand the us.
Yes, the author believes the text to be speaking of a particular love the elect, but HE NEVER INTERPRETS THE WORLD AS THE ELECT!
as a Christian, I think these doctrine wars are b.s.; ignore it? it's the anal-retentive types that need everything buttoned down so they feel better about themselves. Engelsma doesn't have God's authority; they don't know that. neither does calvin or any theologian. nobody but God is God. If we're Christians, I think we should let God's word interpret God's word and let the dead guys stay, you know... dead. His word is living an active. they're with -HIM-.
the words of mere men don't separate bone from marrow, or dividing soul and spirit. God's does. how about some good, ole' fashioned common ground! who's with me? no, nobody? well, have fun in disobedience. repent soon, k? ;)
watch?v=_Qz5yhNAZps
that's my flagrant disrespect for anything and everything that looks divisive and anti-Christ from within the Church.
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt Indeed, there are calvinists who say that. I guess they are hyper. I've read it in a site, and it was quite compelling, but there are other passages in the Bible that talk about the love of God for the Kosmos, an Kosmos as the fallen world.
There is a great book that I recommend to everyone: "The difficult doctrine of the love of God" by D.A. Carson. It's not long and I found it online.
"For God so loved the ELECT[...]so that WHOSEVER believeth in him[...]"
That is not possible from a Calvinist view. World and whosoever clearly makes a separation between ALL and SOME from that "all". SOME and SOME would not fit there.
I use "some" because "whosoever believeth" are the elect, and that never means any other thing in R. theology.
You will be surprised MC at the Judgement Day. But! God is in Heaven and he does whatever he pleases. He'll get you there if you've been good. Get it?
So God so loved the world, every single person which would include vessels of wrath he prepared for destruction, that he gave his only begotten son so that they might be saved? That doesnt make sense.
You have properly identified that the word is "world." At the same time though, remember that the elect are that world in the end. The non-elect will be cast out. The world will be saved from evil. The elect alone will be left. In a very true sense, it is already accomplished. It is ordained.
Keep going. You appear to have a good mind for this sort of thinking/knowledge. It is this sort of thinking that will bring us together.
@TomUsherRLCC The last "world" is found in the nominative case rather then the accusative as the others. You will also notice that the verb "saved" is found in the subjunctive form which means it is possible. That is why English translations supply the word "might" to clarify the proper usage of "saved"
Read 1 Corinthians 15::22 and compare it to your teaching that "most will be lost," and you will have discovered exactly what makes the sacrifice of Christ desolate and worthless. The abomination that makes the sacrifice of Christ worthless. What you are saying is that what Adam did in the garden, is by far more powerful than what Christ did at the cross. The church should be singing songs about the power of Adam, not Christ.
I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about, and I fear neither do you. Of course, you are welcome to try to disabuse me; but I won't be holding my breath.
If Jesus only saved one soul, would his sacrifice be "desolate and worthless"? That's the inescapable conclusion of your words.
By the way, exactly where did you get the quote ("most will be lost") you attributed to me?
Be sure to answer the two questions; otherwise, don't expect discourse.
@TomUsherRLCC Sometimes something may come along out of nowhere, and maybe you are just supposed to do what you are asked to do. Read 1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV). Then let's find out what you believe. Do you believe few will make it? Warning: I'm going to expose what you believe, as the stone cold abomination of desolation. You are led to believe Satan is going to walk in the FRONT door. You are worshiping the beast and don't know it. You are infected by the dragon's "We are good they are bad"
@TomUsherRLCC I look for truth everywhere. I used to limit myself to one sect of Christianity, until I realized that something was not right. Something was missing. I can read what you said above and know what you believe. I'm sure this offends you, and it's understandable. No one likes to be told they are deceived. But it's about truth only, and when it becomes about truth only, then you begin to admit you were wrong, and things begin to become more clear.......
@TomUsherRLCC You believe Satan is walking through the front door, and have no clue that you are already bowing down to the false image found in Daniel 3:1-6. What you have been taught causes such tunnel vision, that you forgot Nebuchadnezzar repents. You forgot Nineveh repents. You are being taught to "wait for destruction" just as Jonah did, making zero faith in Christ = Faith in Christ. How do I know this? I was you. All puffed up thinking I was one of the "good ones."
@TomUsherRLCC What you are blind to right now is Self Righteousness leads to worse than murder. It leads to casting billions into eternal suffering alive in hell (Daniel 3:1-6). Math logic says if only one person is saved, you should be singing songs about the power of Adam, not the power of Christ. 2+2 never = 5. The church is being taught an impossible equation and swallowing it as truth. Is 2+2 = to 5? Is Good news = to most will be lost?
What you believe makes Adam the victor. 1 Cor 15:22
@fractalfires thanks but please remember, we're all brothers here and we all see through the glass dimly. No harm in trying to have some patience and understanding for our brother here. Nor am I trying to put you on the offensive in any way. Thanks
the Word must be explained using the Word. other means of method of interpreting, allegorising or "reading into" the scripture will lead you to error.
thanks for this. I get so worked up when I hear people say something as insane as "God doesn't love everyone." It just rattles me that someone can believe that :(
@GrImR3aP3r916 Really? Have you even read the Bible? Trust me, God does not love everyone. Example...Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. I am not trying to tear down your faith but God has a plan and he demands glory, even at the expense of a corrupt people.
@koldkase77 yes, I try to get into the word quite often.. and while I don't claim to be some scholar, I definitely am not "new" to it. I don't understand how you could throw out one of the basic, foundational teachings of the bible because it says that God "hated" Esau. When you run into something like that, especially when you're lacking a large amount of context, you shouldn't think it must be literal and morph your current beliefs to fit it! Figure out what it actually means :)
@GrImR3aP3r916 Okay, for the sake of the argument, let's say you are correct with the whole Esau thing. What of David's Psalm when he says in Psalms 5:5 "Thou hatest all who workers of iniquity." Are we to say that David was not inspired to write such a thing so that we can convince ourselves that God loves everyone? Surely not, as we know ALL scripture is given under the inspiration of God. We know that God has a capacity to hate as we are made in his image.
@koldkase77 Esau I have hated, its more of an action than the pure emotion of hate, similar to hating on someone. God does have a plan, and he has demands for certain. Hows this, God has the desire to Love us all, but we have the ability to choose to be hated, or rather unacceptable to him, I think thats a better way of saying both things at once.
@d3adp001 Okay, for the sake of the argument, let's say you are correct with the whole Esau thing. What of David's Psalm when he says in Psalms 5:5 "Thou hatest all who workers of iniquity." Are we to say that David was not inspired to write such a thing so that we can convince ourselves that God loves everyone? Surely not, as we know ALL scripture is given under the inspiration of God. We know that God has a capacity to hate as we are made in his image.
@koldkase77 again God has the desire to love us all, but we have a choice whther to be loved or hated. Dont start a conflict here, there is no purpose to that.
@d3adp001 I seek no conflict at all. I just think Christians have it all wrong today. According to you, we can work towards being loved or hated. Although that is partially true, we can not do anything to assure our salvation other than putting faith in Christ. "Lest we boast" as one Christian so well put it.
@koldkase77 You need to understand that I said nothing of working or choice to do something to EARN salvation. Salvation is given, but we CHOOSE to accept it or not, we choose to be loved or to reject that love. Maybe some people you talk to twist it that way to earn it, but the concept is stated quiet plainly, you choose to accept or reject the gift, which in a way is why Gd LOVES us all, he wants to love us, but will we accept that?
@d3adp001 okay, there is no need in this argument because we both have different opinions. Arguing on the internet is like winning the special Olympics. You may win, but you're still retarded.
@SlackerSlayer Because I have a keyboard that is almost worn out the and o only works it I slam it, and I dont proof read and edit all the time I as fast as it comes into my head, so I missed a key, are you seriously asking why?
@d3adp001 Okay if that is your excuse but I've seen the same thing all over the place as if you spelled it out with the o, you would be using that name in some sinful manner. Yes. I was hoping to get an answer anlong some religious mumbo jumbo line, unless you are being disengenuous with your excuse. SS
@ISamuelII I am not too worried about an o in a comment, if thats the biggest thing I need to work on in my relationship with my creator, well then I would be doing pretty good. and judgement of sin is up to him, who knows my heart mind and every hair on my head. I think I am in good hands.
@koldkase77 I wished you christians would research the origins of that fraud they got your ancesotrs to believe in by the point of a sword. Nice method to bring tha flocks to godt.
Zeitgeist, although it has some minor errors, has the summary down pat that the judaic "faith" is nothing more than another novel, plagiarized of course. Now with that said, how can those word in the bible be seen as the uncorrupted word of god? It can't, it is 100% corrupt when they do not 'ID' the source.
Are you seriously going to make such an accusation and use Zeitgeist as your big back up plan. I suggest you do the research on Zeitgeist my friend, before making yourself look completely ignorant again.
@koldkase77 You seriously going to believe that book has divine origins? LOL Tell me how Moses can be seen as four different legends from those others.
Since you seem to be such a scholar of religion,,, has anyone according to your version ever 'seen god'?
@ISamuelII Should I answer with biblical evidence or should I instead make you look foolish using historic methods that YOU and everyone like you have claimed to dispute the facts of the bible?
@ISamuelII Thats wonderfull, for over 10000 years man has known God , but just this last 15 to 20 years this idiot found out the truth! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! You are so uneducated, you watch a video and now you know the truth, retard! And just for your info, they have ID the sources, you idiot! Get out of grade one you moron.
@mikemoms Thank you for the projections which one video of mine can clear up real quick. I do not watch "one video" and become a scholar in the field the video covered. Seems your one show pony is all you have researched, or more likely been told as you sat on a wooden bench.
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GOD IS LIFE IS LIGHT IS TRUTH IS RIGHTEOUS IS LOVE AND WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
SFwhitegirl 3 months ago
The election of the Father is not universal, the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not Universal.... then why would the atonement of the Son be universal? that would put the Persons of the Trinity completely at odds with one another , but the Triune God is completely unified!
John 17:6-10 its there God is God we should worship at his feet for revealing to us through the power of the Holy Spirit who Jesus is, and who we are in him ( perfect and spotless in the fathers sight)Ephesians1:4-7
searchforthe1truth 5 months ago
I am going to make a video response to this one.
ProveYourFaith 8 months ago
John 3:16 God so loved the World.....God so loved humanity. You have to read the entire Bible. The Bible has a spiritual meaning and not for everyone.
edwina328 10 months ago
2 points... 1) Why do you name your channel "moderate Calvinism" when you are an arminian? 2) Why do you call your website "divinesoteriology" when you dont even believe in divine soteriology but rather salvation conditoned on the sinner?
Testallthings 11 months ago
@Testallthings there is a more accurate name for people who don't follow the teachings of Calvin.............
CHRISTIANS!!!
joejohnson043 9 months ago
@joejohnson043 arminians, free willers, and all others who believe in salvation conditioned on the sinner are not christians
Testallthings 5 months ago
@Testallthings do you really want to commit idolatry with Calvin as your 'god'?
joejohnson043 5 months ago
@joejohnson043 you are a slanderer. I do not even read or follow John Calvin. I have nothing on my website by John Calvin. You appeal to John Calvin as a scapegoat because you hate the one true and living God who has "mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." - Romans 9 v 18. The Word of God says "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10 v 18 ... think about that!
Testallthings 5 months ago
@Testallthings where's the slander? It was a question. If you don't follow Calvin, then why label everyone that doesn't submit to that heresy as an 'arminian'. Do you think the word of God was obscured from all men's understanding until the year 1536? Poor disciples, sure they got to walk with Jesus, but they didn't know anything about what was going on like we do now, thanks to Calvin.....
joejohnson043 5 months ago
Luke 10:24 "For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."
I guess this verse was really meant for Calvin's disciples...........
joejohnson043 5 months ago
@joejohnson043 you are a slanderer. I do not even read or follow John Calvin. I have nothing on my website by John Calvin. You appeal to John Calvin as a scapegoat because you hate the one true and living God who has "mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." - Romans 9 v 18. The Word of God says "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool." Proverbs 10 v 18 ... think about that!
Testallthings 5 months ago
@Testallthings good questions.
DougCameraMan 5 months ago
*continued; furthermore the Bible is a sound doctrine of pratical knowledge that has been established forever, jus ast christians are a sensible intelligible right minded people with a correct way of thinking wherein atheist are a godless people who conform to the ways and teaching of this world, well in actuality we all do but the main point that christians are mindful of the things of God and should strive to abide by his laws
supersayn53 11 months ago
look up the word in greek... you will find that this was actually meaning the galexy... kassmos. But it was symbolic for the heathen...
the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
your greek lexacon will direct to such... the non jews... the context is completely what matters... Nicodimus asked the questions... and Jesus spoke, Nicodimus, pharassee, "you have to be born again (john 3:3)..." This was forine to him... now
truthfoundinwords 1 year ago
Continued: the word "world" here is meant to mean people from all nations, not just the Jews. They called those outside fo themselves the "WORLD." Strong's says this is the meaning we should apply here. Does this mean that only God's elect will be saved? Yes, I do agree with that. But, the word "elect" does not fit here. It means the "world" including Jews and non-Jews -- ANYONE who believes In Jesus WILL BE SAVED. Amen and God Bless.
1aliveinchrist 1 year ago
I just saw your video here and wanted to give you something else to think about concerning the use of the word "world" as you were mentioning the "morphology" of the word. Historical criticism is very important here. "World" has 8 meanings as used in the KJV (see Strong's Concordance for all 8 meanings) -- iow -- when Caeser says to take a cencus of the "world," he didn't mean the ENTIRE population of the planet. According to Strong's concordance, John 3:16's "world" is meant to mean -- Continue
1aliveinchrist 1 year ago
this is stupid the work of a KENITE.
toonful 1 year ago
No The word 'world' in Jonh 3:16 isn't 'The Elect' it is however 'believers' only...go figure, that would actualy imply elect. You might want to go on down a couple verses and read the text in context too. Where do these people come from who 'do good deeds and want to step into the light'? Doesnt the Bible also say there are NONE who do right?
deckercarol 1 year ago
The death of Jesus is an expression of his love to the whole world and is sufficient to save the whole world should the whole world respond in faith. However the Bible also says only the elect will respond and see it through to the end. So his death is an expression of love for the world, any one who responds in faith will be saved, but God knew who they would be so it is right also to say he died only for the elect. He potentially dies for the whole world but effectively dies for the elect.
hicksi61 1 year ago
@hicksi61 Anybody in the world can be an elect!! Don't think its a certain race because its not, everyone who believes in the Christ can be an elect
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms No, everyone who believes in Christ IS the elect
hicksi61 1 year ago
@hicksi61 Well said!!!!!!!!!!!! I couldnt of said it any better.
mikemoms 1 year ago
@fractalfires "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them"
VVhich law? As I just pointed out to the other one, you have a commandment to honor your father n mother, yet your bejebusses tells you to abandon them??
How doth thy relate vvhich to follow? Two laws of your Godt, that directly contradict each other. Seriously, open your eyes to the frauds they are.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
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StarPathImages 1 year ago
I find it ironic this video attempts to make claims on a passage that has absolutely NO evidence to back that...1. God actually exists. 2. If god exists that sending your 'only son' to be tortured and killed on a cross is a sign of love and ultimate sacrifice, especially if that son was...god. It makes NO sense whatsoever to send 'yourself' to be tortured and killed and claim it is a sign of love and sacrifice if you KNEW you would 'really' die.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne thats were you are mistaken! God is three in one essence for example: The sun has three functions but is one sun, The three functions are: The sun itself, the heat it produces and lastly the light that comes forth from it! God: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit all in one. very simple and true!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@Mikemoms...if it was true, there would be proof. To date, there is not a SINGLE shred of proof for any god, Jesus, any miracle, or any supernatural concept. Period. So, until you can provide such proof, your CLAIMS are only a big fat GUESS.
That's right. Your faith is nothing more than a delusional GUESS.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne Guess?? I'd call it more along the lines of the Jim Jones cult partaking in a drink of koolaide. Just take it in without any thought. Hope, maybe in the ideas forced by the sword but guess?
If people were raised without one notion of thsoe fraud stories, they certainly wouldn't be guessing them as told.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@StarPathOne We are living in the year 2011! 2011 years ago Our Christ Jesus was born! Must be something important to start the years after the birth of one man? His grave site remains, his apostles letters are there for us as a testimony, the spot of his crucifiction remains etc. the proof is everywhere, ask the 5 billion people in this world who believe! And yes the romans were using armies to protect themselves in the fifth century from the growing race of muslim to protect the Christians.
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - I also find it highly ironic you try to make the analogy of god and the Sun. Judeo-Christian religions came directly from pagan sun worship concepts, hence why thousands of OTHER assumed deities have had the same characteristics as the Jesus myth. Attis, Dionysus, Horus, Buddha, Krishna, Apollo, Mithra, Zeus, etc....they had similar features - Born of a virgin, walked on water, healed the sick, had 12 disciples, called the Alpha and Omega, crucified, resurrected 3 days later, etc.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne "I also find it highly ironic you try to make the analogy of god and the Sun."
Yep, and then the majority of them think the holy day is the first day of the week. It was minor details like that, that gave me the incentive to go seek out why there are so many nonsense themes in their script.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@ISamuelII That is good!! Keep seeking and you will find! That is each and every one of our duties if we want to live. Good for you go right to the root and you will see.
mikemoms 1 year ago
@StarPathOne let me correct you my friend because you seem uneducated and just speak out of the hate in your heart towards the truth. 1: Buddah had a mother and a father and yes his mother was a virgin who was married like everyone else and had relations with her husband and had a kid (buddah) he vever walked on water. did help the poor and supplied medicine, never called alpha omega and never crucified and he died at the year of 80! Apolo had many wives and slept with many men. i can tellumore!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - I never said they ALL had the same attributes dumbass. Pay attention. I know the story of Buddha. I know the story of Horus, and all the others. The Jesus myth was simply a compilation of all these previous myths. So, sorry, you are still out of luck. If we KNOW all the other gods were myths, there is NO REASON to think the Jesus story is not a myth as well. So, unless you can provide ANY proof of your assumed god, you have NO point whatsoever. Got proof?
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne Horus defeated Set by putting his secret man sauce on Set's cabbage, buddha is a statue of a fat guy, he has ears but cannot hear, eyes but cannot see wherein Jesus was the savior, "the sword that came to save the world" the LIVING God, who transcends all understanding, most certainly knew that these would not be possible to prove thousands of years later, therefor emphasized on faith (faith is a sureness in what you hope for and a certainty in what you cannot see) >continued
supersayn53 11 months ago
@mikemoms Three in one??? DYou do realize if your godt was the same as the christ, you are talking incest with Mother Mary. Is it okay for your godt to fuck his momma? That is what you are suggesting with your trinity nonsense.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@ISamuelII Why would you think incest? God created the earth, what makes you think he cannot make a women pregnant without body? he even created eve, just incase you did not know. He does thing spiritually and physically, he can do anything, because he is the creator of all and the Father of all! That means me and you and your wife that is if your married, are brothers and sisters. LOL incest?
mikemoms 1 year ago
your forgettin that he also taught us how to make it into his kingdom which is what matters the most in this time on this earth. He set an example for his people! He showed his disciples the whole truth so that they may proclaim it to the world which only had 160 million people at the time. Why do you think the 95% of greeks converted from the pagan gods to the real God? Why is it so hard to believe that God loved us so much that he sacrificed his only Son for us? Did his Son not conquer death?
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - False. They converted because the Romans were KILLING them as infidels if they did not. Um, if you have PROOF he did these things, then show it....otherwise you are just spewing rhetorical nonsense like a blathering parrot. THERE IS NO PROOF OF JESUS AT ALL...face it. Nothing, nada, zero, zilch, zip, not a single shred of proof. Likewise, there is NO PROOF of ANY disciple, so using them as "eye witnesses" is a nonsequitor.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
Funny I'm from the second oldest city in the world (Damascus,Syria) and the proof of Jesus is everywere here, You live in the new world, the world of confusion and deceit, you know and see nothing of history and the events that took place, you are lost and only go by words!!! I go by proof and its all around there. Go to the root and you will see and understand, don't let the zeal in your heart blind you. Try going to these places that took place in the time of Jesus like i did!proof is there!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Funny, because there is NOTHING in Damascus that would stand as "actual" proof. Name ONE thing that would constitute as "proof"...I defy you.
As for 'knowing the history', there is NO history other than the MYTHS written in the bible, and a few associated texts that have largely been documented to be forgeries. (Josephus and others).
As for 'going to these places of the time of Jesus'....once again, there is NOTHING in the Middle East, or ANYWHERE that contains absolute proof.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne You want one thing, O.K., the head of John the Baptist still remains for you to see in a temple in Damascus. I've got all kinds for you, but you are so busy trying to deny the truth that it makes you look very lost like a puupy in the middle of a highway. You obviously never read the bible because Jesus did claim he came to this world to save the sinners, Try reading for once in your life and you might learn instead of talking like a 2 year old!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - LOL!!! And how, praytell, do you know it is really John the Baptist? LOL
The story of John the Baptist was taken from the Egyptian story of Anup the Baptizer. Likewise, the story of Moses was taken from the Egyptian story of Meses, etc.
There is absolutely NO PROOF that is John the B, just as the Shroud of Turn was shown to be fake.
You simply do not understand the difference between a hoax, and proof. There have been more forgeries in attempt to prove Jesus than we can count.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne LOL Anup? There is nothing to trace his lineage or even any sources that he even existed. Unknown source can directly be equated to one of two things, word of mouth or author made it up. I’ve looked all over for indication that anup is of royal decent, I have yet to find any.
As for mises, Mises is an Egyptian verb that means out of. Egyptian Pharaohs often took this as part of their name together with the name of one of the God's from their pantheon(Satan). He is made up also!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Likewise, the bible is NOT proof of itself anymore than Dr. Seuss's "Cat In the Hat" is proof of a talking car that wears a hat.
I need to read?? I've read the bible in Greek, Hebrew AND Latin. I've studied it as a scholar for over 20 years and debated it formally thousands of times.
The fact is, you do not know what circular logic is. Otherwise, you would not claim the bible is proof of itself.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne Albert Einstein QUOTES: Religion without Science is blind and Science without Religion is Lame." Now if you say you are smarter than Albert Einstein than you need to check yourself in a hospital! He speaks about the Lord and he knew! You say you"ve formally debated? With who Kids? THOUSANDS of time? you must be extremly busy, to learn hebrew, greek and latin then to read hebrew, greek and latin and to understand then to study with scholars then debate it THOUSANDS of time?? Wow!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Einstein was an atheist you idiot. Read a book...something that isn't religious propaganda.
As for my intellect and debate skills, you certainly are no match, or even a challenge.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@StarPathOne einstein did believe in a God, you are spun buddy! I really think you need to read a book. No match? What kind of skills are you talkin about? you have not showed me evidence of anything you are saying, your answers are childish. So tell me then great one where did this earth come from? Please astonish me!
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, University Press
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@mikemoms -
"From a correspondence between Ensign Guy H. Raner and Albert Einstein in 1945 and 1949. Einstein responds to the accusation that he was converted by a Jesuit priest: "I have never talked to a Jesuit prest in my life. I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Eisntein was only a believer up to around age 13. Then he grew up.
As for the ONLY intellectually and spiritually honest answer one can give on the origins of life and matter is "I don't know".
You do NOT know for a fact, nor I, nor the church, nor the scientist, nor the guru.
NO ONE KNOWS THESE ORIGINS, and to 'claim' you do is to lie.
However, if you think you have 'proof' that "gawd did it", then by all means, post it here as you would be the first in history.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Sorry, but Jesus NEVER said, himself, he had come to save people from their sins by dying on a cross. Nowhere.
If you think I am wrong, and you are right....as you so claim.....then post the verse. I'll wait.
StarPathOne 1 year ago
I’m sorry, does the bible not count as a recorded history? Just need to clarify this. If you read the Bible thousands of times, then you would know were in the O.T. it would be found! You are so busy trying to proove it wrong that i think that you do not know what circular logic is. Have fun trying to prove the Bible wrong, it will take you a lifetime like many others in the past and got nowhere, while I journy back home to were i came from with our Father who promised it to all. PARADISE!!
mikemoms 1 year ago
Oh there is, you just need to open your eyes! He did it for an example for us to make it to his kingdom, and also Jesus died in the flesh not in spirit then ressurected, tha example shows us that your soul never dies and he showed us how to go home!!!!!!!!!!!! That is one reason why he sent his only son, and also that he loves his creation just like how you would love your son that your seed produced.
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms - Isn't it ironic that Christian claim god sent jesus to save his followers from sin by dying on a cross....
...but NOWHERE in the bible did jesus, himself, state that is what he had come to do.
That's right. Jesus NEVER said he had come to save people from sin by dying on a cross.
So, why do Christians claim that is the core of their religion if it was NEVER in the bible via Jesus??
StarPathOne 1 year ago
"God is Love" (1 John 4:8)...but HE is under no obligation to love everyone 'the same'... Deut. 7:6-7,Romans 9,Eph. 2:4...
conclusion:
God does so love the world ...(John 3:16, Matt. 5:45)... declare this, as well as His perfect wrath which will come 2 everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.
...God's love cannot be isolated from His holiness, justice n' wrath or vice versa...
But does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner that it's expressed???... ABSOLUTELY.
7Blood7Bought7 1 year ago
I believe that John 3:16 is universal, common love. Not just for the elect. But I also believe that there's more to the story.. there's a deeper, efficacious love that God has that accomplishes the conversion of the individual on whom it is placed - a love attested to several verses earlier in John 3:8. I do not side with those who say that God only loves the elect. That's not true. God doesn't delight in the death of the wicked. He has a common love for all men.
clayhutchins 1 year ago
The word ... World...or Cosmos Really refers to God's Kingdom. God Loves his kingdom so much that He sent His Son to take His Earthly Kingdom back from the devil and put it back under the Authority of Humanity through Jesus who became Human. I will make a Video to reinforce this Point. Thank You so much for bringing this Point out.
Reginald Lowe
reglowe777 1 year ago
Thanks MC, I'm neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. When I read the Bible, I typically try and read it in it's plain sense, unless it makes no sense.
John 3:16 makes very plain sense without the Calvinist slant on it. I love my Calvinist friends, but, even after being reared in a Calvinist church and believing Calvinism for a few years, the Bible simply doesn't teach what they want it to teach.
NateWardawg 1 year ago
Your definition of the "world" in John 3:16 should NOT contradict Jesus' statements in John chapter 6. That means you might interpret "the world" as meaning "people from all over the world and not just Jerusalem." One thing we moderns forget is that the apostles had to TEACH a TOTALLY NEW idea. That was that God was KNOW going to save people from ALL OVER THE WORLD and not just near the Jewish temple! John 6 demolishes Arminianism.
sirjames45 1 year ago
When the Lord Jesus in His high prayer says in John17:9 "I am praying for them. I am NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."
I don't see Jesus praying on behalf of cosmic inanimate objects but interceding on behalf of men. A VERY particular group of men that HE CHOSE. If the world is at enmity with God why doesn't Jesus intercede with the Father on their behalf? Do you notice in scripture what the Lord Jesus opinion of "the world" is?
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
@RMCDisciple Context defines terms.. You cannot use a term from another context to define how it is used in John 3:16-17. That is why people who used Antioch hermeneutics say context is king.. Syntax and morphology are the keys to unlocking the proper interpretation.. Those are the starting point.. Well, the purpose of the letter is actually the starting point, but from there syntax, and morphology take over..
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM Are you willing to concede that it is possible that in John 3:16 John can be speaking of a particular group since the same Greek word, Strong's (2889), is used and that definition includes:
8) any aggregate or general collection of PARTICULARS of any sort a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
Sounds like you're saying that unless you do linguistic gymnastics the believer is unable to understand the Bible from a plain reading of the text?
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
@RMCDisciple Strongs Anyone who is not a calvinist... Which is everyone until they are taught calvinism... Believes the world to be speaking of the actual world... But for those who claim it to be otherwise, it is very helpful to point to the syntax, and morphology. The simple reading of the text is the arminian or moderate calvinist reading.. One has to be taught the calvinist reading..
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@RMCDisciple
Satan is the god of worlds while God is the God of worlds. They are different realms, so to speak.
Jesus came to save a world (the world, the real). Jesus came into and comes into the world (false-hearted) where Satan reigns, but Jesus was not and is not of that world.
Does that agree with your view?
TomUsherRLCC 1 year ago
Search on Youtube: ARMINIAN PRAYER
Tell me if it makes sense to you at all. Thank you God for Sovereign Grace.
PSUIVERSON 1 year ago
If I just take the verse and not compare it with ALL scripture then I must hate my family as Luke 14:26 says..... But he word as a whole IN CONTEXT says different. It is your presupposition that dictates your interpretation of that verse without regards to the context of the bible as a whole. "God so loved the world"...2 Co 5:19 tells us who the world is.."Them" not "It".
IndianaBullet 1 year ago
2Co 5:19 "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation".This verse goes along with Jn. 3:16 and it's obvious that "world" is not the universe because the UNIVERSE did not trespass. Also the world and universe cannot be saved for it will be destroyed and a NEW world will be created, we Christians will never die. When the world is spoken of in regards to salvation, it is man thats meant
IndianaBullet 1 year ago
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Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple". Does this verse really teach us that we must hate? No, the word hate here is to contrast the love we must hold for God and is not to be taken literally as I believe the verse concerning Esau means also. He loved both, but compared to his love of Jacob his love of Esau was as hate.
IndianaBullet 1 year ago
@IndianaBullet
Are you saying that God loves different people in different ways? That's reformed theology!
I will recommend you a book: The difficult doctrine of the love of God, by D.A. Carson (I said it before), so you can check what calvinists think. I am saying it because much of the things that you know about calvinists are said by arminians that... well... dramatize and twist it to look horrible. It's... normal, and I profoundly understand why they do it, and God is a forgiving God :)
jboi116 1 year ago
@jboi116
No my friend, I'm not saying God loves different people in different ways, but he does FAVOR some more than others. The bible speaks of God favoring some people, but it never says he favors all the people. I am well aware of what Calvinists believe because my very best friend who lead me to Jesus many years ago is a staunch 5 point Calvinist. I am not an Arminian or Calvanist but I think Arminians are closer to the truth..much closer. God loves all and requires us to love our enemies.
IndianaBullet 1 year ago
@IndianaBullet Make all the excuses you like, you have been deceived, greatly deceived.
Did you know that order of your chrsit goes directly in opposition to the old testament commandment "to honor your father and mother,,,"?
Does a later suggestion of your christ over rule one of the top ten commandments? Have yuh evuh been to War? Every christian that went to war forgot to love thy enemy and instead go murder those they are told are their enemy. Oh! You have more excuses?
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@ISamuelII
You say I have been deceived,in what way? And explain please dear friend the "honor your father and mother" statement. What opposition? We are to love our enemies AND justice. Does killing a Nazi in war to stop their atrocities mean I hate that Nazi? Does a judge who has to condemn his own son to death for murder (because that's what the law and justice requires) suddenly hate his son? No, he hates his crime but loves his son. Thou shall not MURDER is correct interpretation,not KILL.
IndianaBullet 1 year ago
@IndianaBullet "please dear friend the "honor your father and mother" statement"
if you are a christian you should never have had to ask, it is a commandment, one of the top ten commandments. Remember those? THEN bejebusses comes along and during one of its more manic moments wants his flock to abandon their father and mother and everyone else for him only. And please, you should know of that one as well, or you need to get into that book more often.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
I haven't denied His omnibenevolence. I unlink the emotion of love from His omnibenevolence. It seems to me that there was something in the days of Noah that God didn't love. God hates sin and therefore destroyed a sinful world.That would have been "all good" rather than "all loving".
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
Lord Jesus, Brothers and Sisters forgive me for not capitalizing His and God.
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
For God so loved the world that He sent a global flood to destroy all except for eight whom he chose to save.
Sound about right?
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
@RMCDisciple So because God is a just judge, he cannot also be omnibenevolent? Sounds pretty unorthodox to me.
God Bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM Point being that God ALONE determined the size of the ark to be built and how many of his it would accommodate and as Matthew wrote "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."
Does god know how many rooms to build in His heavenly mansion?
RMCDisciple 1 year ago
@RMCDisciple I am a bit confused.. You said "God so love the world that he sent a global flood". Which is an attempt to undermine the scripture that clearly states that God loves the world. I pointed out that you are denying the omnibenevolence of God. Your next response has to do with predestination.. Either you believe that God loves the world, and that He is omnibenevolent. Or you deny it, predestination is another subject.
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
Does anyone who posts here even know greek? I've studied it for many years, and cosmos, in this context, is 'all humanity'.
petrakid 1 year ago
Hope to see you come out of that false theology and come to Jesus Christ.
soulwinningministry 1 year ago
IF it makes you all feel safe and out of harms way to think you saved yourself ....then so be it......I assure you the world is not saved.......I wish it were so ...but it is not
jmallton 1 year ago
Thank you for this video! The Gospel is so simple, yet the Calvinists try to make it into something it's not.
msb0000 1 year ago
@msb0000
We are talking about an atribute of God.
It is not simple at all.
jboi116 1 year ago
@jboi116 - I meant the verse. Understand it for what it says, not according to your presuppositions...
msb0000 1 year ago
@msb0000
The truth is that God knows all things beforehand, and he knows those who will trhow in hell for all eternity, making them suffer under the holy wrath of a just God. So, his wrath will be on them for all eternity, why should he have ever loved... Hitler?
But the love of God is more complex, and it wouldn't be ok to say to unbelievers: God hates you. God loves his creation.
We should not forget that God hated Esau before he did good or evil.
Too difficult...
jboi116 1 year ago
@jboi116 - That's where you err. He is NOT talking about the person Esau in Romans 9. Look at Genesis 25: Two NATIONS are in your womb...Calvinists claim to have a corner on the theological market and yet they err in the simplest of concepts...Also, when did the older serve the younger? I'm waiting for any Calvinist to answer that question.
msb0000 1 year ago
How does 'whosoever' rhyme with 'the elect'? 'The elect' are the chosen few. Whosoever means just what it says, mate..
EdjeBos 1 year ago
Excellent video, sir!
AmericanWayne 1 year ago
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read what it says in the greek work meaning everyone then in the very next verse it says that whosoever beliveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life ,he died for the whole world othewrwise God is a respect of persons which he isn't ,the world has got to acept what He did on the cross for them thats the whosoever
blessedwithoutmeasur 1 year ago
@fractalfires I think you misunderstood my response. I didn't see this and only saw what you had said to koldkase77, in which I was, as politely as I could, asking you to try to at least state your argument peacefully.
And I don't believe God hates sinners- he hates the sin. And we're to live the same way. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him" Would God command us to be UNLIKE him? I surely don't think so. Thanks
GrImR3aP3r916 1 year ago
@GrImR3aP3r916 "And I don't believe God hates sinners- he hates the sin. "
Killing the sinner seems like a hate if there is any such thing as hate, if you asked me.
I can't believe mine eyes reading in here that some actually say that when they wrote down "hate" that they really didn't mean hate. Hate is a simla four letter word, that has very limited deffinition in the whole bible.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
Excellent video! Please pray for our dear 5-point Calvinist bothers & sisters to come to know the truth.
ChristiansofAsia 1 year ago
DUDE, DID YOU EVEN READ THE ARTICAL? LET ME CITE IT.
The world of John 3:16 (Greek: kosmos, from which comes our English word, cosmos, referring to our "orderly, harmonious, systematic universe") is the creation made by God in the beginning...
THEY DIDN'T INTERPRETE JOHN 3:16'S "THE WORLD" AS "THE ELECT". WHY DID YOU MISREPRESENT THEM? WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING THIS STRAWMAN? I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO INTERPRETES "THE WORLD" IN JOHN 3:16 AS "THE ELECT"!
God Bless.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt I would go back a read the article again. It is towards the bottom of the page..heres a quote
"As for us, we are determined, out of love for the truth, to oppose the lie of a love of God in Jesus Christ for all men without exception'
God Bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Yes, they DENY that world in John 3:16 means EVERY HUMAN THAT EVER EXSITED, but that doesn't mean they accept that world means "the elect of God". Your sidestepping the FACT that you purposfully misrepresented them. NO CALVINIST I KNOW INTERPRETS the world in John 3:16 as THE ELECT.
STRAWMAN!
You changed what they said and attacked them for it. Attack them for rejecting omni-benevolence, but don't attack them for saying something they didn't say.
God Bless.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago 3
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt How is it a strawman.. It is obvious you are not reading, here is yet another quote from those calvinist's
"The people who make up the world of John 3:16 are all those, and those only, who will become believers (whosoever believeth); and it is the elect who believe (Acts 13:48)."
Do modern calvinist's believe that Jesus was sent for the elect or the whole world? The elect of course, that is why they teach limited atonement. cont>
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
I don't know why you always try to defend the errors in calvinism. It is not a strawman, it was literally said by them they Jesus was sent for the those that believe, and those that believe are the elect. I suggest you read the entire article before attempting to defend their teaching.
God Bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Why can't you read reformed authors in CONTEXT?
That paragraph says world in John 3:16 is the created universe as a whole with the elect as its core.
Then speaking "as regards its people", it says what you cited.
You OVERSIMPLIFIED what was stated as to refute them. They still DID NOT SAY the world in John 3:16 is the elect. That is what you are arguing against in this video. Therefore, you were arguing against a STRAWMAN.
God Bless.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
PS: Jesus died to redeem the whole universe, not EVERY HUMAN THAT EVER LIVED. The human part that is redeemed is the ELECT. And, what does Limited Atonement have to do with this topic? Talk about an irrelevant distraction.
PPS: Yes, Jesus was sent to redeem those that believe and the REST OF THE UNIVERSE WITH THEM. Those who do not believe are thrown away and consumed with FIRE. But, nothing in either of our statements say the world in John 3:16 is the elect.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt This post makes it very obvious that you did not read.. Here is the quote again
"and to preach and testify, near and far, in season and out of season, a love of God for the world that saves the world, a death of the Son of God that redeemed the world," obviously they are not defining world as I do, if they are then this reformed man is teaching universalism... You might ask him what atonement has to do with this topic.. But you would know if you actually read the article.
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt "Yes, Jesus was sent to "
Sent or cast out, just a matter of perspective and who tells it.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt You have got to be kidding.. Did you actually read the whole article before you wrote this post? It is obvious that you did not. They seen John 3:16 as God sending his son into the world for redemption (whosoever believes) based on that they claimed that it is only for a select few, because he redeems a select few..
God Bless.. btw stop claiming strawman, and actually read the article
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt If they did not define the "world" then this calvinist is teaching universalism
here is the quote, yet again..
"and to preach and testify, near and far, in season and out of season, a love of God for the world that saves the world, a death of the Son of God that redeemed the world"
I ask you, how is he defining world? Is all the world going to be saved? Is all the world going to be redeemed? He is defining world as the elect...
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt Context??? Engelsma clearly said:
"The people who make up the world of John 3:16 are all those, and those only, who will become believers (whosoever believeth); and it is the elect who believe (Acts 13:48)."
He is defining the "world" in John 3:16 as the elect who believes.. Seriously.. stop trying to defend men who are clearly wrong, just because they come from your camp
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
The very paragraph that you cited last time defines how they are taking world.
THE WORLD of John 3:16 (Greek: kosmos, from which comes our English word, cosmos, referring to our "orderly, harmonious, systematic universe") IS THE CREATION MADE BY GOD IN THE BEGINNING, now disordered by sin, WITH THE ELECT from all nations, now by nature children of wrath even as the others, AS THE CORE OF IT.
It is defined. The definition is NOT the Elect. CASE CLOSED!
God Bless.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt I don't believe you are reading the same article I am. Simply because within the first minute of reading you find the statement
"What then is the truth about the world of John 3:16? Loved by God with Divine, almighty, effectual, faithful, eternal love, the world is saved. All of it! All of them!"
He clearly make the statement that those whom God loves in 3:16 "are saved" "all of them". So if he means anyone other then the elect then you claim him to be a universalist.
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Dude, world in John 3:16 DOES NOT POINT AT PEOPLE; it points at the CREATED UNIVERSE.
Yes, these guys have an interpresting perspective that addes the ELECT as to the CORE of the UNIVERSE that is LOVED, BUT they are still not interpreting cosmos as the Elect.
God Bless.
PS: You're twisting what they are saying. "Loved by God...the WORLD IS SAVED. All of IT!" not "those whom God loves 'are saved'". You're not reading it carefully enough.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt The author of that article says the "world" is saved.. Does that mean elect or the entire world? If it means the elect, then you have proven my point.. If it means the entire world, then you claim this calvinist to be a universalist. Pick your poison..
God Bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Bad dichotomy. World doesn't mean the elect or EVERY HUMAN BEING. It means the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE.
Yes, the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE is saved by Jesus saving those who believe. Jump outside of your myopic perspective that interpets world in John 3:16 as a group of humans and INTERACT WITH WHAT WE ARE SAYING.
God Bless
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt We? Who is we? You are not following the author.. Every human being is part of the physical universe.. Thus you refute yourself.. Read the big bold print in the article. The author is refuting the people who "using this text against the confession of God's particular love for the elect to face up to the doctrinal position that they are taking".. The author believes the text to be speaking of a particular love for a particular people, the people who believe.. (elect)
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
Think before you speak. How do you save a vinyard? You prune the branches. How do you save a universe? By removing sin. He removes the sin of some by the Cross, thus saving humanity, and he removes the rest through judgement at the end of the age. Talk about not even trying to understand the us.
Yes, the author believes the text to be speaking of a particular love the elect, but HE NEVER INTERPRETS THE WORLD AS THE ELECT!
God Bless.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
as a Christian, I think these doctrine wars are b.s.; ignore it? it's the anal-retentive types that need everything buttoned down so they feel better about themselves. Engelsma doesn't have God's authority; they don't know that. neither does calvin or any theologian. nobody but God is God. If we're Christians, I think we should let God's word interpret God's word and let the dead guys stay, you know... dead. His word is living an active. they're with -HIM-.
joshuadmeans 1 year ago
the words of mere men don't separate bone from marrow, or dividing soul and spirit. God's does. how about some good, ole' fashioned common ground! who's with me? no, nobody? well, have fun in disobedience. repent soon, k? ;)
watch?v=_Qz5yhNAZps
that's my flagrant disrespect for anything and everything that looks divisive and anti-Christ from within the Church.
joshuadmeans 1 year ago
@DoctrinesofGraceBapt Indeed, there are calvinists who say that. I guess they are hyper. I've read it in a site, and it was quite compelling, but there are other passages in the Bible that talk about the love of God for the Kosmos, an Kosmos as the fallen world.
There is a great book that I recommend to everyone: "The difficult doctrine of the love of God" by D.A. Carson. It's not long and I found it online.
May God bless you.
jboi116 1 year ago
"For God so loved the ELECT[...]so that WHOSEVER believeth in him[...]"
That is not possible from a Calvinist view. World and whosoever clearly makes a separation between ALL and SOME from that "all". SOME and SOME would not fit there.
I use "some" because "whosoever believeth" are the elect, and that never means any other thing in R. theology.
You will be surprised MC at the Judgement Day. But! God is in Heaven and he does whatever he pleases. He'll get you there if you've been good. Get it?
jboi116 1 year ago
what programs are you using
mcurdead2004 1 year ago
@mcurdead2004 Logos bible software
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
So God so loved the world, every single person which would include vessels of wrath he prepared for destruction, that he gave his only begotten son so that they might be saved? That doesnt make sense.
JesusforLife2 1 year ago
@MODERATECALVINISM
You have properly identified that the word is "world." At the same time though, remember that the elect are that world in the end. The non-elect will be cast out. The world will be saved from evil. The elect alone will be left. In a very true sense, it is already accomplished. It is ordained.
Keep going. You appear to have a good mind for this sort of thinking/knowledge. It is this sort of thinking that will bring us together.
Peace,
For: The Christian Commons
TomUsherRLCC 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC The last "world" is found in the nominative case rather then the accusative as the others. You will also notice that the verb "saved" is found in the subjunctive form which means it is possible. That is why English translations supply the word "might" to clarify the proper usage of "saved"
God bless
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC Do the math
Good news = Most will be lost??
Read 1 Corinthians 15::22 and compare it to your teaching that "most will be lost," and you will have discovered exactly what makes the sacrifice of Christ desolate and worthless. The abomination that makes the sacrifice of Christ worthless. What you are saying is that what Adam did in the garden, is by far more powerful than what Christ did at the cross. The church should be singing songs about the power of Adam, not Christ.
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@LambAndTheDragon
I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about, and I fear neither do you. Of course, you are welcome to try to disabuse me; but I won't be holding my breath.
If Jesus only saved one soul, would his sacrifice be "desolate and worthless"? That's the inescapable conclusion of your words.
By the way, exactly where did you get the quote ("most will be lost") you attributed to me?
Be sure to answer the two questions; otherwise, don't expect discourse.
TomUsherRLCC 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC Sometimes something may come along out of nowhere, and maybe you are just supposed to do what you are asked to do. Read 1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV). Then let's find out what you believe. Do you believe few will make it? Warning: I'm going to expose what you believe, as the stone cold abomination of desolation. You are led to believe Satan is going to walk in the FRONT door. You are worshiping the beast and don't know it. You are infected by the dragon's "We are good they are bad"
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC I look for truth everywhere. I used to limit myself to one sect of Christianity, until I realized that something was not right. Something was missing. I can read what you said above and know what you believe. I'm sure this offends you, and it's understandable. No one likes to be told they are deceived. But it's about truth only, and when it becomes about truth only, then you begin to admit you were wrong, and things begin to become more clear.......
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC You believe Satan is walking through the front door, and have no clue that you are already bowing down to the false image found in Daniel 3:1-6. What you have been taught causes such tunnel vision, that you forgot Nebuchadnezzar repents. You forgot Nineveh repents. You are being taught to "wait for destruction" just as Jonah did, making zero faith in Christ = Faith in Christ. How do I know this? I was you. All puffed up thinking I was one of the "good ones."
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@TomUsherRLCC What you are blind to right now is Self Righteousness leads to worse than murder. It leads to casting billions into eternal suffering alive in hell (Daniel 3:1-6). Math logic says if only one person is saved, you should be singing songs about the power of Adam, not the power of Christ. 2+2 never = 5. The church is being taught an impossible equation and swallowing it as truth. Is 2+2 = to 5? Is Good news = to most will be lost?
What you believe makes Adam the victor. 1 Cor 15:22
LambAndTheDragon 1 year ago
@fractalfires thanks but please remember, we're all brothers here and we all see through the glass dimly. No harm in trying to have some patience and understanding for our brother here. Nor am I trying to put you on the offensive in any way. Thanks
GrImR3aP3r916 1 year ago
the Word must be explained using the Word. other means of method of interpreting, allegorising or "reading into" the scripture will lead you to error.
iRondalla 1 year ago
thanks for this. I get so worked up when I hear people say something as insane as "God doesn't love everyone." It just rattles me that someone can believe that :(
GrImR3aP3r916 1 year ago
@GrImR3aP3r916 Really? Have you even read the Bible? Trust me, God does not love everyone. Example...Jacob I loved, Esau I hated. I am not trying to tear down your faith but God has a plan and he demands glory, even at the expense of a corrupt people.
koldkase77 1 year ago
@koldkase77 yes, I try to get into the word quite often.. and while I don't claim to be some scholar, I definitely am not "new" to it. I don't understand how you could throw out one of the basic, foundational teachings of the bible because it says that God "hated" Esau. When you run into something like that, especially when you're lacking a large amount of context, you shouldn't think it must be literal and morph your current beliefs to fit it! Figure out what it actually means :)
GrImR3aP3r916 1 year ago
@GrImR3aP3r916 Okay, for the sake of the argument, let's say you are correct with the whole Esau thing. What of David's Psalm when he says in Psalms 5:5 "Thou hatest all who workers of iniquity." Are we to say that David was not inspired to write such a thing so that we can convince ourselves that God loves everyone? Surely not, as we know ALL scripture is given under the inspiration of God. We know that God has a capacity to hate as we are made in his image.
koldkase77 1 year ago
@koldkase77 Esau I have hated, its more of an action than the pure emotion of hate, similar to hating on someone. God does have a plan, and he has demands for certain. Hows this, God has the desire to Love us all, but we have the ability to choose to be hated, or rather unacceptable to him, I think thats a better way of saying both things at once.
d3adp001 1 year ago
@d3adp001 Okay, for the sake of the argument, let's say you are correct with the whole Esau thing. What of David's Psalm when he says in Psalms 5:5 "Thou hatest all who workers of iniquity." Are we to say that David was not inspired to write such a thing so that we can convince ourselves that God loves everyone? Surely not, as we know ALL scripture is given under the inspiration of God. We know that God has a capacity to hate as we are made in his image.
koldkase77 1 year ago
@koldkase77 again God has the desire to love us all, but we have a choice whther to be loved or hated. Dont start a conflict here, there is no purpose to that.
d3adp001 1 year ago
@d3adp001 I seek no conflict at all. I just think Christians have it all wrong today. According to you, we can work towards being loved or hated. Although that is partially true, we can not do anything to assure our salvation other than putting faith in Christ. "Lest we boast" as one Christian so well put it.
koldkase77 1 year ago
@koldkase77 You need to understand that I said nothing of working or choice to do something to EARN salvation. Salvation is given, but we CHOOSE to accept it or not, we choose to be loved or to reject that love. Maybe some people you talk to twist it that way to earn it, but the concept is stated quiet plainly, you choose to accept or reject the gift, which in a way is why Gd LOVES us all, he wants to love us, but will we accept that?
d3adp001 1 year ago
@d3adp001 Amen! for love to be love it cannot be forced (irresistible grace)
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
@d3adp001 okay, there is no need in this argument because we both have different opinions. Arguing on the internet is like winning the special Olympics. You may win, but you're still retarded.
koldkase77 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@koldkase77 if you say so, let it be.
d3adp001 1 year ago
@d3adp001 Can you explain why you can not write out the entire word as we know it, god?
SlackerSlayer 1 year ago
@SlackerSlayer Because I have a keyboard that is almost worn out the and o only works it I slam it, and I dont proof read and edit all the time I as fast as it comes into my head, so I missed a key, are you seriously asking why?
d3adp001 1 year ago
@d3adp001 Okay if that is your excuse but I've seen the same thing all over the place as if you spelled it out with the o, you would be using that name in some sinful manner. Yes. I was hoping to get an answer anlong some religious mumbo jumbo line, unless you are being disengenuous with your excuse. SS
Go on, you can make an o
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@ISamuelII I am not too worried about an o in a comment, if thats the biggest thing I need to work on in my relationship with my creator, well then I would be doing pretty good. and judgement of sin is up to him, who knows my heart mind and every hair on my head. I think I am in good hands.
d3adp001 1 year ago
@koldkase77 I wished you christians would research the origins of that fraud they got your ancesotrs to believe in by the point of a sword. Nice method to bring tha flocks to godt.
Zeitgeist, although it has some minor errors, has the summary down pat that the judaic "faith" is nothing more than another novel, plagiarized of course. Now with that said, how can those word in the bible be seen as the uncorrupted word of god? It can't, it is 100% corrupt when they do not 'ID' the source.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
Are you seriously going to make such an accusation and use Zeitgeist as your big back up plan. I suggest you do the research on Zeitgeist my friend, before making yourself look completely ignorant again.
koldkase77 1 year ago
@koldkase77 You seriously going to believe that book has divine origins? LOL Tell me how Moses can be seen as four different legends from those others.
Since you seem to be such a scholar of religion,,, has anyone according to your version ever 'seen god'?
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@ISamuelII Should I answer with biblical evidence or should I instead make you look foolish using historic methods that YOU and everyone like you have claimed to dispute the facts of the bible?
koldkase77 1 year ago
@ISamuelII Thats wonderfull, for over 10000 years man has known God , but just this last 15 to 20 years this idiot found out the truth! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! You are so uneducated, you watch a video and now you know the truth, retard! And just for your info, they have ID the sources, you idiot! Get out of grade one you moron.
mikemoms 1 year ago
@mikemoms Thank you for the projections which one video of mine can clear up real quick. I do not watch "one video" and become a scholar in the field the video covered. Seems your one show pony is all you have researched, or more likely been told as you sat on a wooden bench.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
@mikemoms Just in case you do seek it out, that video is featured at the moment on my profile. The little Orange book of truth.
ISamuelII 1 year ago
That's a very good point.
fruitofspirit 1 year ago
I appreciate your honest appraisal of scripture brother! I have to ask, what is your bible software? It looks so much better than mine ;-)
JaelSister 1 year ago