A critique of the Jesus myth as espoused by Doherty and Truthsurge, part 2

[VyckRo]

This are this mistakes! 1 corinthians 15: 23 the word here is παρουσία "parousia" - return (for this contest) 1 Corinthians 16:22 - what? 2 Peter 1:16 παρουσία "parousia" - return 1 Thessalonians 2:19 "parousia" - return Apocalipse 3:3 the word here is "heko" - that is to be present (literally in this contest) 1 John 2:28 the word here is "parousia" - return 1 Thessalonians 5:23 παρουσία - return James 5:7 παρουσία - return

[spoddie]

never, ever do "air quotes"

[Apologist117]

TruthSurge's premise that the epistles alone reflect the earliest Christian beliefs, is utterly false. He didn't cite any sources or works in his first two videos. He simply asserts his position and assumes people will buy into his lie. Additionally, he has not cited one passage from an epistle that Christ was killed by demons before the world was made. His thesis is essentially a rehash of Docetism and Gnosticism -- with a touch of Jewish tradition about the seven levels of Heaven.

[OneEyedJack1970]

A revelation is simply something that is revealed.

[TruthSurge]

As to your last question... it could be argued that they might call it a revelation simply based on the nature of his coming but then, that does not remove my interpretation. It merely offers a 2nd one. I thought this was going to refute my points. ! :)

[migkillertwo]

you were giving more of a positive argument.

[TruthSurge]

if i get time, i want to do a vid to you on your methodology of refutation. perhaps I can show you what I would think is a better approach. But I now have a new business thingy I'm doing so who knows?

So, if I don't do this vid, just be aware that I think you are a swell guy and you mean well. You are young and have much to learn but you are way ahead of me at your age. One request: search for truth, not a crutch for your current beliefs. It is the only way to go. :)

[TruthSurge]

I use a modern def of revelation? Have you ever heard of Strong's Greek lexicon?

What ANCIENT definition of revelation did I overlook and where is this definition to be found?

I never give a reason to believe that revelation means something shown for the first time? You did watch the vid, yes? It is the definition of the word. If you want to disbelieve the dictionary and Strong's Greek lexicon, I can't stop you.

[TruthSurge]

You really don't know what non sequitor means, do you? It means "it doesn't follow". The conclusion that the earliest Christians never knew a Jesus on earth and that is why we see a ubiquitous absence of any reference to Jesus returning in the epistles. It follows. it's logical. 41 references pointedly ignore calling it a return or coming again and 6 call it a revelation. It most certainly follows.

Why would they HAVE to call it a return? They wouldn't but you'd think SOME would.

[vbfl920]

Why are you a christian?

[migkillertwo]

why?...I count christianity as a basic belief.

[vbfl920]

I ask because I want to get to the heart of your belief. I am also a christian.

Do you believe in "christianity" or do you walk with Christ?

Or perhaps both?

[migkillertwo]

I dunno.

[vbfl920]

You don't know?

Christianity is all about a Person who wants to interact with you.

If you don't believe and ACT according to that basic premise, you have no right defending anything else about it.

EVERYTHING about "christianity" stems from that basic idea.

Are you just defending a belief system because it's a fun intellectual exercise, or do you really have a personal stake in the matter? I mean do you try to follow God in your personal life, with results?

[vbfl920]

I mean I've watched your videos before and I think you do a great job arguing them. Again I want to say that you do a great job with that.

But from the perspective of God, if you do a great job arguing on behalf of a belief system but do not interact with the God who is behind it, it is utterly pointless. The underlying reason for apologetics is to clear the obstacles so that one can come into BELIEF and immediate relationship with God Himself. That is the sole and only reason for apologetics

[migkillertwo]

"That is the sole and only reason for apologetics"

are you sure?

and what does it mean to "walk with God" anyway? am I supposed to have some sort of experience?

[vbfl920]

What other possible reason is there for apologetics? You're defending the faith. Well, faith in what?

And yeah, if you follow Christ you will have some type of experience. I personally do not know of one sincere christian who doesn't experience God when they commit their life to Him.

Are you telling me you defend a worldview that you don't even put into practice?

Please don't take offense to this, but do you even pray or seek God in your personal life?

Again, please no disrespect.

[vbfl920]

The very worldview that you defend... that we BOTH defend, speaks on these things. It talks about seeking God, praying, God answering prayer etc etc.

The WHOLE worldview claims that there is an essential, basically required, interaction between God and man.

You aren't aware of the theology?

Craig, Moreland, Lennox, Veritas, and myself all really believe and live out these things. It's not just some position we chose because it sounds cool.

[vbfl920]

Because what good is a belief in God, if that's all that it is?

I believe that somewhere out there, there is a planet called Neptune. But this belief does little or nothing to affect my personal life.

Essentially, you may call yourself a theist. But in all practicality you are a deist.

God is real man.

That's why He makes all the sense in the world and you are able to defend him.

[migkillertwo]

well what is there more to Christianity than belief? Romans seems to clearly support sola fide.

[vbfl920]

" ...even the demons believe and tremble."

Yes, salvation is through faith by grace. But it doesn't end there. That's where it begins.

Having faith doesn't get you out of FOLLOWING Christ.

You cannot be a christian without following Christ, I mean if you believe that then you obviously are not reading scripture. These are primary facts, you should know this.

Every disciple both back then and today FOLLOW Christ in their personal lives, it's not just a "philosophy" that they believe in.

[vbfl920]

All throughout the NT Both Christ and Paul speak on putting these "things" into practice, GROWING in your faith, not being mere hearers of the word but doers of the word.

It's a total active lifestyle that IMPLIES you walk with God Himself, and He interacts with you.

And that REALLY does happen, when you really seek God sincerely. I completely base my life around this idea. I pray constantly with numerous answered prayer.

If you don't experience God, than what is the point?

That's Deism.

[CooFrank]

IS EVERYTHING IN YOUR HOUSE BLUE?

[Deliratio]

Hmm, there's a blue color-bucket in the background. Maybe he's wearing a blue shirt in the next video and doing a bluescreen to look cool? ;-P

[migkillertwo]

that is a lot of blue. But the wall is an illusion. its actually white.

[TheIrrationalAtheist]

smurf