Are you kidding? This is really disappointing. "It's a great bit of idealism"...to protect an innocent human life? Miller can say what he wants about the GOP on other issues but this is one he can't chose the middle ground on. He is so weak and wants to find the grey area where he can please both sides by saying he want to reduce abortion. If it is not a real human life then why would he want to reduce them? And if it is a human life then why isn't it a cause worth fighting for?
@foral22 miller isn't pro-choice. but he believes we can start reducing abortions NOW because it's not realistic for abortion to be illegal in the near future but by reducing abortions now can allow us to illegalize it in the future.
boy...i am glad that the abolitionists didn't give up after 20 years. is donald for real??? this is depressing. how many of our leaders are this deceived?
proeg777 he is not stating that we should be giving up on stopping abortions!! He is saying the the last 20 years have seen the same approach from the GOP and that he wants democrats and republicans alike to take a second look on how to stop these abortions from happening!
I like Donald Miller, always have, and hopefully, always will. Don, has several different viewpoints than I do on many subjects, but just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean that I shouldn't listen. He offers a good perspective on abortion, and yes, I believe that abortion is a terrible thing: but, the truth is, the Democratic party HAS taken some HUGE steps in decreasing the number of abortions. For this I applaud them, and Donald Miller.
"it's a great bit of idealism... but it's a pipe dream... we need to face that now, twenty years in right?"
The first American slavery abolition society was formed in 1775. 88 years before abolitionists ilegalized slavery requiring the law to recognize the humanity of a group of supressed humans.
Please please don't give up on what's right Don, it's not about a 'moral victory'. It's about truth, justice, and standing up for those who can't even begin to stand up for themselves.
It's strange that Don says our attempts to illegalize abortion have never worked and never will. Right now is the closest we've come to a pro-life favorable Supreme Court. If McCain is elected and appoints 1 or 2 conservative justices, they could overturn Roe in the next few years and leave it back to the states to decide legality of abortion (where it should be decided). I think Don's and other's timing to leave republican pro-lifers NOW is tragic given how close we've come to success.
I see what he's saying that we should look at the social aspects of abortion, but we have to draw some boundaries here. Obama is ok with partial birth abortion- when a baby is killed outside the womb- if we want to accept that as a christian belief then God help us
Actually, no, he isn't ok with partial birth abortion.
He said (sadly on Fox news):
"On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that."
Do a little research, and don't believe things just because you read it in an email.
Donald, I respect you but your it sounds like a vacillating stance on abortion. We are murdering children... this is no time to compromise on abortion methods... it is time to stand up and declare it's MURDER and must be ended!
Here is my issue with much of the pro life movement. We act like abortion sprang into being in 1973, and if it was outlawed tomorrow, we can wipe our brows, say we fought a good fight, and go home because abortion will some how stop if its illegal.
We can criminalize abortion, or we can help reduce abortion, but we will never stop abortion.
It is true that abortion is a terrible dilemma we face today. However, I think Miller's point is valid; we have gone about the right thing in the wrong way for a long time, and it has been to the detriment of the cause. Illegalization as the sole means of reducing abortions is a "pipe dream", because Pandora's Box has been opened for our generation. Women would still get abortions, only having to do so illegally means an increase in back-alley abortions, thus an increase in mother mortality,
thus a backlash that would see abortion re-legalized, only now with fresh statistics that show how important it is to keep abortions legal. We could continue this cycle with an increasing fervor, but it would never end, and the elusive generation that is born knowing abortion is wrong, because it is illegal, will never come. Most US abortions occur in Christian homes. It may be that our collective psyche changes toward this issue because Christian parents begin to listen to their children.
That's where crisis pregnancy programs and adoption agency marketing come in...make it OK and free to seek help, keep those options out there in front of Americans' minds everywhere. Would this help every case? Probably not but it sure would reduce the #
Replace the word "abortion" with "slavery". Weren't we able to "stop" it? Anything is possible. The problem is the victims this time have no voice of their own, but what if a book came out on abortion in detail and gained national attention, much like Uncle Tom's Cabin? What if pictures came out like they did in the Civil War days? Yes, they're graphic but would the conscience of America be pricked? Or repulsed? Or unmoved?
Thank you. My point was that we have tried to make the world play on our terms for a long time, to the detriment of our cause. We hope for legislation, simply because it is easy. Health care, education, economy, mentorship, and (perhaps above all) the church becoming a beacon of hope to the fatherless - unless these issues are addressed, all the efforts of pro-lifers will continue to be taken as propaganda, drowned out in a sea of propaganda. Real change is much more difficult, and worth it.
I'm with you. While we're waiting for legislation we definitely need to keep busy on all fronts with a holistic mindset. I don't know how we can think legislation is easy, though, with what we've seen go on in our Congress and Supreme Court. It's hard work just like the rest of it. Keep fightin' brotha. You have fellow workers alongside you.
You're right - poor choice of words on my part. I only meant that the concept of this being won purely - even primarily - by legislating the isolated issue is an overly simplistic one. It hopes to fell much more in one blow than could actually be done.
Thanks for keeping it cordial. Here's to good discussion...
I think the most important thing Don Miller says here is to respect each other. I do take issue with Don's milk-toast abortion stand. Abortion is SICK! It is not a religous issue and ALL democrats will acknowledge this if they are honest with you. The reason it is in the democratic plank is there is an Abortion-Industrial Complex. There is a lot of money democratic campagins get for supporting legalized abortion. Don should ask democrats to insert "Abortion is Sick" in their democratic plank.
I would never speak for G-d, but it seems to me the Democratic party is speaking out for important social justice causes. But here is the problem. Jesus calls and invites us to help and serve the oppressed and marginalized. Democrats use force and coercion to remove personal property(money) through the stroke of a pen(legislation). This immoral and trampels on freedom and liberty.
look into the biblical concept of jubilee, where wealth was redistributed. it would be ideal if people were naturally more generous in caring for those in their communities and the world, but we aren't, and that is why legislation is needed to put into practice what we say we care about.
The Christian ideal of the Kingdom of God is one of including everyone. However everyone is invited, not forced to participate. People see Jesus on display when an individual Christian or a community of them(church) help the "least of these". I don't think they see Jesus on display when I force my neighbor to be generous. Using force against someone is anti-Kingdom of God. If someone has their needs met I want them to see Jesus, not a bureaucrat.
Ironically enough it is those who are secular that almost follow the Principles of Jesus Christ more so than the "Christian" Right which is why it took someone like Donald Miller to turn a former nonbeliever like myself to Jesus Christ. I was using the wrong examples. After the way Republican politicians have used "self-servatives" like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to attain power; people should think twice before judging democrats for anything remotely close to what the right wing's done.
Right on. Don't worry. You may not want to know who Jerry and Pat are. Either way; "Searching For God Knows What" and "Blue Like Jazz" both by Donald Miller kick ass.
I'm glad William Wilberforce didn't listen when people told him her was crazy to think slavery could be ended in England. Thank goodness for that kind of idealist!
I've been to Africa--where I saw babies dying in the dirt; rampant malaria, leprosy and starvation. That experience affected how I now view "The Poor" in the U.S. Most of The Poor in the U.S. have color TV, a roof over their heads and access to free education and Food Stamps. "The Poor" has simply become a war cry for politicians who want more power for themselves. IMHO.
I admire you. I would love to do my best to aid in the effort against the epidemics in africa. But like you i have a passion for the poor...i have traveled 15 miles from my surburban front door and have seen children left to fend for them selves while the mother lies in the grass stoned beyone belief, people who walk the streets with no shoes and an empty belly. while i believe that africa is the poster child for poverty, i believe that i have a responsibility to anyone less fortunate than me.
This man is brilliant.
OliverZimbelman 7 months ago
Well said, Don Miller.
larissaelle 2 years ago
Are you kidding? This is really disappointing. "It's a great bit of idealism"...to protect an innocent human life? Miller can say what he wants about the GOP on other issues but this is one he can't chose the middle ground on. He is so weak and wants to find the grey area where he can please both sides by saying he want to reduce abortion. If it is not a real human life then why would he want to reduce them? And if it is a human life then why isn't it a cause worth fighting for?
foral22 2 years ago
@foral22 miller isn't pro-choice. but he believes we can start reducing abortions NOW because it's not realistic for abortion to be illegal in the near future but by reducing abortions now can allow us to illegalize it in the future.
theassassin43 1 year ago 2
boy...i am glad that the abolitionists didn't give up after 20 years. is donald for real??? this is depressing. how many of our leaders are this deceived?
proeg777 3 years ago
proeg777 he is not stating that we should be giving up on stopping abortions!! He is saying the the last 20 years have seen the same approach from the GOP and that he wants democrats and republicans alike to take a second look on how to stop these abortions from happening!
jlg021 2 years ago
The last headline ever printed before the world goes BOOM! " Christian cult launches nukes kills humanity!"
xlioilx 3 years ago
@xlioilx you can't write a headline if the whole world is blown up.... just sayin. ;) use logic next time and learn tolerance.
theassassin43 1 year ago
I like Donald Miller, always have, and hopefully, always will. Don, has several different viewpoints than I do on many subjects, but just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean that I shouldn't listen. He offers a good perspective on abortion, and yes, I believe that abortion is a terrible thing: but, the truth is, the Democratic party HAS taken some HUGE steps in decreasing the number of abortions. For this I applaud them, and Donald Miller.
Thanks,
from a conservative
JMac345 3 years ago
"it's a great bit of idealism... but it's a pipe dream... we need to face that now, twenty years in right?"
The first American slavery abolition society was formed in 1775. 88 years before abolitionists ilegalized slavery requiring the law to recognize the humanity of a group of supressed humans.
Please please don't give up on what's right Don, it's not about a 'moral victory'. It's about truth, justice, and standing up for those who can't even begin to stand up for themselves.
love,
-Joel
joelisfar 3 years ago
I'm with you, Joel. Having an African American president was said to be a "pipe dream".
darchristy3708 3 years ago
Amen
gmsmokers94 3 years ago
It's strange that Don says our attempts to illegalize abortion have never worked and never will. Right now is the closest we've come to a pro-life favorable Supreme Court. If McCain is elected and appoints 1 or 2 conservative justices, they could overturn Roe in the next few years and leave it back to the states to decide legality of abortion (where it should be decided). I think Don's and other's timing to leave republican pro-lifers NOW is tragic given how close we've come to success.
harriswhistles 3 years ago
I see what he's saying that we should look at the social aspects of abortion, but we have to draw some boundaries here. Obama is ok with partial birth abortion- when a baby is killed outside the womb- if we want to accept that as a christian belief then God help us
abesaces 3 years ago
Actually, no, he isn't ok with partial birth abortion.
He said (sadly on Fox news):
"On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that."
Do a little research, and don't believe things just because you read it in an email.
Jilliliz 3 years ago 2
Donald, I respect you but your it sounds like a vacillating stance on abortion. We are murdering children... this is no time to compromise on abortion methods... it is time to stand up and declare it's MURDER and must be ended!
redstate82 3 years ago
Here is my issue with much of the pro life movement. We act like abortion sprang into being in 1973, and if it was outlawed tomorrow, we can wipe our brows, say we fought a good fight, and go home because abortion will some how stop if its illegal.
We can criminalize abortion, or we can help reduce abortion, but we will never stop abortion.
filegirl 3 years ago
It is true that abortion is a terrible dilemma we face today. However, I think Miller's point is valid; we have gone about the right thing in the wrong way for a long time, and it has been to the detriment of the cause. Illegalization as the sole means of reducing abortions is a "pipe dream", because Pandora's Box has been opened for our generation. Women would still get abortions, only having to do so illegally means an increase in back-alley abortions, thus an increase in mother mortality,
LukeBogue 3 years ago
thus a backlash that would see abortion re-legalized, only now with fresh statistics that show how important it is to keep abortions legal. We could continue this cycle with an increasing fervor, but it would never end, and the elusive generation that is born knowing abortion is wrong, because it is illegal, will never come. Most US abortions occur in Christian homes. It may be that our collective psyche changes toward this issue because Christian parents begin to listen to their children.
LukeBogue 3 years ago
That's where crisis pregnancy programs and adoption agency marketing come in...make it OK and free to seek help, keep those options out there in front of Americans' minds everywhere. Would this help every case? Probably not but it sure would reduce the #
darchristy3708 3 years ago
Replace the word "abortion" with "slavery". Weren't we able to "stop" it? Anything is possible. The problem is the victims this time have no voice of their own, but what if a book came out on abortion in detail and gained national attention, much like Uncle Tom's Cabin? What if pictures came out like they did in the Civil War days? Yes, they're graphic but would the conscience of America be pricked? Or repulsed? Or unmoved?
darchristy3708 3 years ago 2
Thank you. My point was that we have tried to make the world play on our terms for a long time, to the detriment of our cause. We hope for legislation, simply because it is easy. Health care, education, economy, mentorship, and (perhaps above all) the church becoming a beacon of hope to the fatherless - unless these issues are addressed, all the efforts of pro-lifers will continue to be taken as propaganda, drowned out in a sea of propaganda. Real change is much more difficult, and worth it.
LukeBogue 3 years ago
I'm with you. While we're waiting for legislation we definitely need to keep busy on all fronts with a holistic mindset. I don't know how we can think legislation is easy, though, with what we've seen go on in our Congress and Supreme Court. It's hard work just like the rest of it. Keep fightin' brotha. You have fellow workers alongside you.
darchristy3708 3 years ago
You're right - poor choice of words on my part. I only meant that the concept of this being won purely - even primarily - by legislating the isolated issue is an overly simplistic one. It hopes to fell much more in one blow than could actually be done.
Thanks for keeping it cordial. Here's to good discussion...
LukeBogue 3 years ago
Likewise. You've been a gentleman about it and I commend you. Here's to good action as well
darchristy3708 3 years ago
How will the "moral victory" cost "many many lives"? Will it cost over a million lives a year?
Cool dude, though.
LukeDSimpson 3 years ago
I think the most important thing Don Miller says here is to respect each other. I do take issue with Don's milk-toast abortion stand. Abortion is SICK! It is not a religous issue and ALL democrats will acknowledge this if they are honest with you. The reason it is in the democratic plank is there is an Abortion-Industrial Complex. There is a lot of money democratic campagins get for supporting legalized abortion. Don should ask democrats to insert "Abortion is Sick" in their democratic plank.
sm222 3 years ago
I would never speak for G-d, but it seems to me the Democratic party is speaking out for important social justice causes. But here is the problem. Jesus calls and invites us to help and serve the oppressed and marginalized. Democrats use force and coercion to remove personal property(money) through the stroke of a pen(legislation). This immoral and trampels on freedom and liberty.
vaporbailey 3 years ago
look into the biblical concept of jubilee, where wealth was redistributed. it would be ideal if people were naturally more generous in caring for those in their communities and the world, but we aren't, and that is why legislation is needed to put into practice what we say we care about.
megcj36 3 years ago
The Christian ideal of the Kingdom of God is one of including everyone. However everyone is invited, not forced to participate. People see Jesus on display when an individual Christian or a community of them(church) help the "least of these". I don't think they see Jesus on display when I force my neighbor to be generous. Using force against someone is anti-Kingdom of God. If someone has their needs met I want them to see Jesus, not a bureaucrat.
vaporbailey 3 years ago
Ironically enough it is those who are secular that almost follow the Principles of Jesus Christ more so than the "Christian" Right which is why it took someone like Donald Miller to turn a former nonbeliever like myself to Jesus Christ. I was using the wrong examples. After the way Republican politicians have used "self-servatives" like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to attain power; people should think twice before judging democrats for anything remotely close to what the right wing's done.
TheGlassPriest 3 years ago
I have no idea who jerry and pat are... but this gut seems to talk some sense.. I'm gonna get the book you recomended by the way..God bless.
Le0ntherat 3 years ago
Right on. Don't worry. You may not want to know who Jerry and Pat are. Either way; "Searching For God Knows What" and "Blue Like Jazz" both by Donald Miller kick ass.
TheGlassPriest 3 years ago
I'm glad William Wilberforce didn't listen when people told him her was crazy to think slavery could be ended in England. Thank goodness for that kind of idealist!
theanderfam 3 years ago
eloquently spoken as usual
sch00ner11 3 years ago
I've been to Africa--where I saw babies dying in the dirt; rampant malaria, leprosy and starvation. That experience affected how I now view "The Poor" in the U.S. Most of The Poor in the U.S. have color TV, a roof over their heads and access to free education and Food Stamps. "The Poor" has simply become a war cry for politicians who want more power for themselves. IMHO.
churchhillgirl 3 years ago
I admire you. I would love to do my best to aid in the effort against the epidemics in africa. But like you i have a passion for the poor...i have traveled 15 miles from my surburban front door and have seen children left to fend for them selves while the mother lies in the grass stoned beyone belief, people who walk the streets with no shoes and an empty belly. while i believe that africa is the poster child for poverty, i believe that i have a responsibility to anyone less fortunate than me.
time2mend 3 years ago