martinmaas, Sandra Tanner provides a service. She tells all inquiring minds the truth because the Lds church only says what sounds and looks good. If you want your ear tickled, you can get that on Pro mormon sites. Its simple.
Are you paid to talk poorly about the Mormons? How sad that you aren't out teaching about Christ or God...instead you are critical of other people that you chose not to agree with. I know many good Mormons. I know many good Catholics, Lutherans, Baptist, Johovah Witness, Protestants, Jews, and Buddhist. Never would I try to tell others what they believe is wrong. It's a personal search. I think the growth of the Mormon church shows that there are many happy people. Share those stories.
This is a nice video, but unfortunately, I agree with the notion that the NT is an questionable source for uncorrupted information. I do, though, feel affinity for Lord Śrī Jesus.
This lady means well. She's on a mission. But there are millions of very happy Mormons out there despite any historic discrepancies. No religion is going to be perfect as long as imperfect people are running things. You can find fault with ALL organized religions out there.
Moroni was a demon or made up by sexual predator Joesph Smith who was convicted of fraud in New Jersy looking for buried treasure using his famous peep stones
Jesus is all you need! That's it. No works, no temples, no ordinances, no rituals, no songs, no marriage, no authority, etc.
Jesus can provide all that because He ALONE is sufficient to save you. Your work is worthless to a HOLY God, unless it is perfect. Even the work you do is steeped in YOUR SELF SERVING WILL. Stop trying to please God and WORSHIP HIM, that's it! WORSHIP JESUS!
No magic invisible sky-gods, no books of ancient superstitions, no mythical demi-gods that supposedly died for our sins and mystically rose from the dead, no preachers who get paid for making people feel like they are part of a special superior club, no brainwashing, etc.
Reality, common sense and critical thought can provide sanity and stability sufficient to save you. Stop worshiping and start working to help in reality.
@NarkAnon There is no reality outside of Jesus. You only claim some insight into reality because you've lived a life supported by something/someone greater than yourself. The only brainwashing is self-brainwashing when people fool themselves into believing they do it on their own and they deserve credit. Nope, you don't...now stop worshiping yourself.
Actually, I don't believe I've done it on my own. I believe I've been taught right from wrong and how to be considerate of others by my parents and other good examples over my life. That's reality.
But go ahead and try to feign logic in stating that there is no reality outside an invisible supernatural legend that might give you a good feeling by believing in it, but you'll never be able to prove is real outside of your own mind. You're just like the Mormons.
@NarkAnon Yet you don't seem to see the inconsistent pride that radiates from your statements. Somehow, you think that there is something called proof and you think that you have a hold on what that is, not to mention you have this amazing insight into the knowledge I have. So, while you continue to bow down to the ultimate authority that is yourself, I will bow down to someone worthy of it. Feel free to continue to follow a path towards death, or turn to your savior, your choice.
Can you see the irony of you condemning me for supposedly making "prideful" statements when the thing that started this exchange was you declaring all the things that Mormons are doing wrong in the way they worship?
What amazing insight you must have into the knowledge Mormons have, eh?
You're free to bow down to whatever intangible, illogical legendary being you want, but so are others. The results are the same.
MORMONISM IS NOT A CHRISTIAN RELIGION! BE CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LEAD INTO THE DECEPTION OF THIS PROVEN FALSE RELIGION!
I read this book and highly recommend it for everyone who is looking in to this blasphemous religion that can take your soul to hell. The author grew up in the Mormon Church and it is a completely FALSE RELIGION!
Arm yourselves! Read the book: “CAN MITT ROMNEY SERVE TWO MASTERS? The Mormon Church Versus The Office Of The Presidency of the United States of America”
I see and hear a lot about how The LDS church is wrong, so tell me how did the church harm your life ? did they steal from you ? did they ask you to do anything that was not wholesome and good for you or others ? what have they done to you ? One of the apostles were crying and carrying on about Jesus and all the stuff he had to do and someone said to him well leave then and he said, where shall I go Jesus has and is offering me everlasting life, what can you offer me ?
@2MyTubes Simple, the church (specifically Joseph Smith) claimed that God/Jesus told him that all Christian churches are false...and nowadays so-called apostles and prophets claim that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth.
I find your statement, You can't start out bad and end up good" "if it's True it starts out true" if that is true how come Geneses tells us about Adam & Eve ? They started out True and then made a mistake and were put away from God because of it and then God had to fix it, by sending Jesus, this is a normal Christian belief, so if they started out wrong, are you saying we can never draw close to god again ever ? I does not feel right to me and seems to me it is a bit black and white.
@2MyTubes The story of A&E isn't comparable to the idea of truth. A&E were created by God and given free will, thus when they sinned it was their doing. Truth is an abstract that has no personality or ability, it is only a category of information. With the LDS church...the first vision is false. Not only are there different versions that don't match, the first vision does not meet the requirements of witnesses (D&C 128:3, Matt 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1 )...more
@godswordsheal But can you offer me ever lasting life ? or only take away faith from the earth ? I have received nothing here that testifies to Jesus or Heavenly Father, just a lot of opinions, you are allowed to have them, so please grant me the same right as you take so readily.
@2MyTubes Of course I can't offer you anything! I would never advocate or even hint that you or anyone else should lose faith...I would only tell you to quit believing in false prophets/false doctrines because the Bible says clearly that you will be held responsible for what you believe, You will not be able to claim ignorance.
@godswordsheal You do not know what i believe or don't believe, it is not about what i believe it is about your comments,, and I do not hear you, teaching or bring any glory to god or his Son here, just a woman taking away faith, I can only comment on what I see and that is what i see, i am sorry if you do't like it although that is my responsibility, it is yours you are saying it not me, I am not attacking you, or your cause but it gives nothing to anyone.
@2MyTubes It's unfortunate. If you have faith in what is wrong then wouldn't you want to know it so you could get rid of it? You speak as if you, yourself are promoting faith in something/anything...instead you put up post challenging the video so that you can continue to believe in whatever it is you do believe. If you had no beliefs similar to the ones that are spoken against then you are more deceitful than anything else, certainly not faith promoting.
@2MyTubes 2.When you are up against a false belief you must first take that away because there is no space for both to exist, at least not when they are both about the same subject. Obviously you can't believe in two doctrines about the same idea at the same time, in the same sense. And that is the problem I see with Mormonism, they take the true gospel message and add (ad infinitum) to it, thus diluting its power in their life. That's worth taking away.
I would like to hear about your testimony, did you just feel nothing, see nothing, hear nothing ? or were you told directly in some way it was not true ?
I will preach on the plurality of gods. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" ("King Follett Discourse") = Changeable and not eternal.
"I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18) = Unchangeable and eternal.
This lady forgets what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. Or maybe she doesn't understand it. Peter, after spending several years with Christ himself, seeing many miracles performed, he actually walked on water himself for a bit, still in the end denied that he knew Christ three times. Yet he became the head of Christ's Church. Even when Christ was on the Earth his chosen leaders his disciples were not perfect and made mistakes. You sound like the Pharisees.
Thank you so much for this video Aaron. Please pray for my sister to believe in Jesus and His saving grace, and please pray with me for the entire paternal side of my family, as they are all Mormons.
There is Heavenly power in the LDS church. I was on my way to church one day when I suddenly felt very sick. When I arrived there I received a priesthood blessing. To sick to bother with any meetings , I went into a vacant room and sat down. I started to dose off when I felt the most beautiful, sweetist peaceful feeling go through my body like a breeze and the sickness was gone. This is just one of the many undeniable experiances I have had as a member. It's testimony. to me that it is true.
Mormonism is YOUR truth. If you want to believe God is a polygamist as well as being Adam as well as living on a planet near 'Kolob', if you want to believe men will become as God is and populate their own planets with all the wives they will have then hey- knock yourself out and keep paying that 10% tithe and stay 'sweet' like Warren Jeffs says (meaning obedient and not think for yourself). Joseph Smith was a sexual predator of young girls, married wives of men he sent away, he was no prophet
Mormonism is the Truth. I left due to family, but returned ! 20 years later thanks be to God. Those who do leave ? was never ment to be in GODS Church in the first place.
@TheUktruth How do you like Adam=God Doctrine? I posted some of it and most Mormons don't like it. But since Mormonism is "the restoration" it should be polygamous, too. and it should change it's name back to "Church of Christ" as it first was and was commanded in the BofM. Seems to me Mormonism is in apostasy to itself. Back to Basics?
I believe, with all the research she and her husband have done throughout many years, using the LDS’s own documents and books etc., and checking them against the Bible text, more than qualifies her to know the truth and speak it.
This lady speaking, Sandra McGee Tanner, is the great grand daughter of Brigham Young Jr and, of course, the great great grand daughter of Brigham Young Sr
The Great Commission is the heartbeat of God. It is a command to every believer and a responsibility for all. It is found throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.
Luke 14:23 - "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." We are to be actively looking for people to witness the Gospel of Jesus Christ to. We are commanded to witness to those that need Christ and warn them.
I guess some of you here, one of you specifically, would say to JESUS if He were the one standing and saying these things "why do you, if you were the true Savior, give a talk like that and disrespect what others believe and "2nd so that talk was to hate on the mormons?? and where did you get all that info wikipedia????"
The Word of God states very clearly who is and who is NOT a child of God and Joseph Smith was not a child of God - he was a child of perdition (The Devil) according to Scripture.
All humans are a creation of God - but NOT all of His human creation is a child of God or children of God. Only born-again Christians are children of God and He is our Father.
Thank you to the Tanners for exposing the truths about Joseph Smith as the sexual predator he was. He was a fraud and it's amazing to me we as women actually think we are so 'less than' that we believe The almighty Creator would want for us to be sexual slaves for all eternity. Ridiculous. Joseph Smith was simply a child of God like we all are. He was a great storyteller and treasure seeker. He employed Freemasonry into his made up religion with secret handshakes.
ok first of all if you were a true christian why would you give a talk like that and disrespect what other people believe. 2nd so that talk was to hate on the mormons?? and where did she get all that info wikipedia????
The issues is not sin itself... it is pride. Most people can not stand the fact that they can not hold to the commandments. For LDS they end up leaving because the church holds to their morals and they forget about the atonment and fall away. The outside world persecutes them for it also (think Brandon Davies).
BAC just give up altogether.. they believe they are lower then dirt and can do nothing and that Jesus will save them no matter what...
@Sk8er408 When you say #1 reason, they dont like being moral....and the Lds church holds to the morals. You are talking about sin. God told me that you canv get caught up in the morality. Making a statement against another person that they are immoral or they dont like to be moral is a grievous generalization on your part with no facts to back it up and saying BAC just give up altogether! No! They give their lives to God, they give their lives NOT give up the way you are stating.
@Sk8er408 You dont need religion to do that and the church ignores me now. What is the difference? Its because i told the Bishop that God told me religion is bad because man taints my truth and leads people astray. Now do you help the so called Apostate (who you view as lost)? No, you only help your friend and Jesus says that is easy to do.
@Sk8er408 I see you have learned to spin well. I didnt tell him i dont like religion. Calling someone an apostate because they dont believe the way you do anymore, is also another horrible thing the church does like using their own authority to tell someone they are EXCOMMUNICATED (kicked out of the club) Is that the kinda person you want to follow. That person sounds like a belief that fosters condemnation and not salvation. You can spin that, but you would be lying to yourself.
@Sk8er408 You are wrong. I was raised in the church and i have always felt that self righteous spirit of religion there. I DONT want to be there around disingenious(fake) people. Its because i wasnt prideful and they all were, so you have it backwards. You should stay on sites that promote your faith. There is no need to comment further if you are here to just prove people wrong.
@Sk8er408 you are a deciever then. Your first statement " #1 reason people leave is because of morality (paraphrasing)" shows that indeed you are Mormon. move along to the Pro Lds sites to show your good works.
Wow... you sure got me... Only a fool would think that people dont have freedom to believe what they want and have to stick to stereotypes.
Seems like i was right when it came to you leaven... you were to prideful to hang around all the other prideful people so you leave because that pride made you feel too guilty.
i think this woman has probably brought more people into the church than any missionary ever could. Getting people talking about the LDS church is the only way to get them to investigate it for themself. And she single handedly got millions to take a closer look into the LDS faith. Which had to bring hundreds of thousands into it. God does work in mysterious ways..
@mikemarco76 Not so. It's mostly a ministry TO Mormons, so they would have ALREADY known about the church.
Taking a closer look at mormonism would either make someone leave it or not join. The missionaries do not want someone to look closely at religion. They ask people how they FEEL about the church rather than what they THINK of it. They don't want them to think!
@bossendenwoodconvict If you read the articles of faith of our religion, it states clearly in Number 11:"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." A Mormon is not a prsoner of the structure of the church or a slave to the authorities of the Church.Many Mormons complain because of the demands from the church, they have not learned to say "NO" ...
according to th dictates of the consciousness.I am Mormon, I do not agree with everything that is going on at the wordly structure of our Church, but that does not mean that I denied in any way that The Chiurch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true restored Church of Jesus Christ on earth. Finally, I answer for my acts and beliefs only toiGod Himself. I believe this, I proclaim this, and I can still be a member of the Church in good standard.Nobody obliges me otherwhise.
@MrManumona I'm sure they do complain they have not learned to say "NO", because if you equate what the church says with God's will how are you going to say "NO" to callings etc. ? I think mormons generally are very self sacrificing and once they come out of the church they suddenly have so much free time because they are no longer on a treadmill so to speak.
@bossendenwoodconvict Yes, you have your point here.But it all comes to the degree of understanding that each one has.The church is certainly NOT God's Will. It is just the earthly providence to help us to better accomplish God' Wil. lMany times Church duties are too demanding, for many people, even exhausting. One has to learn to hear one's own inner voice and to raise his or her own testimony not resting completely on Church's authority which is administered by flesh and bones' men.
Therefore, better than to live the Church and sometimes even the Faith, is to be brave and say, No, I cannot take that much, thank I am sorry, brother.Any mormon that is out there having doubts and suffering because of this do not hesitate to contact me on this issue.
A small replica of gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask you to prove God with a $20 offering."
@blandinthebasement It's the same reason Mormon missionaries go out for two years. This isn't hard to figure out. These people are doing the same things Mormons themselves do.
i am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints (aka Mormons).
we are taught to respect other churches and other ppl beliefs, why do you hate Mormons and why are you trying to convince everybody our religion and beliefs are so wrong and not true.
if you are a true christian you should be focusing on your own religion and try to be the best you can be, not be bringing other people down because of their different religions or beliefs .
They left the church a long time ago, but they can't leave it alone. The Tanner clan have been some of the biggest ex-Mormon haters out there. They take a few historic facts (out of context, of course), spin them...and present some pretty ridiculous claims.
Sandra has the gall to claim she's a Christian and that she is just doing this "out of love".
Truth be told, she's making a nice living from it. Sorry...but the LDS church has a lay clergy, something she can't lay claim to.
No, I'm not going to sit and argue with you endlessly.
I'm going to instead explain the anti-Mormon's modus operandii:
I waste my time giving clear examples. You'll argue till you're blue in the face...and then move on to another subject when you're shown to be a fraud.
In fact, you're already trying to:
You still haven't provided a link disclosing UTLM's income (something you are demanding the Mormons do), which is the original subject.
@slither098 The LDS try to convince people that non mormon churches are wrong and untrue. They believe that other churches have no authority and are in a state of "apostasy." If other churches are not wrong or lacking in some way why do the mormons try to convert people who are already in other churches?
The Tanners and their Lighthouse Ministry pull in BIG BUCKS. They make a nice living at this sort of thing. They're pretty quiet about that part of their "ministry".
Aaron, I try to avoid using the word "believe." I try to stick to what I know, what can be proved and backed up with evidence. So, I do not know how the universe came to be. I know, however, there is no evidence that it was the act of a supernatural being, such as what people commonly refer to as god.
I have heard a lot of good things about this lady and her husband and their work exposing the fraud of Mormonism. However, I am very underwhelmed and unimpressed listening to and watching this video and realizing that she has simply traded one fraud for another. I wonder why she has not been able to focus her critical, analytical eye on the delusion of theism the same way she has with the delusion of Mormonism.
@JohnBleazard You mean you'd rather he be like one of those rational atheists that believes that the universes popped into being uncaused out of nothing?
@aaronshaf2006 No, I'm sure he believes the scientific evidence pointing to the likelihood of all of the universe's mass originating from a massive singularity, instead of thinking that the Earth is 6000 years old and "all those dinosaur bones were just put there to confuse us". Scientists try to disprove their own theories to find truth; theists rationalize bizarre myths so they don't have to believe the truth.
@JohnBleazard I've wondered if she has questions about her new faith too. I read her book "A Look At Christianity" and it seems she and her husband had a relatively liberal view of hell. They seemed quite apologetic about it. She is such a nice person and it must pain her to believe in such a doctrine. IF her new faith is a fraud, it is at least not a dishonest scam like mormonism. Rather myths and tradition that evolved over the centuries based on genuine historical peoples.
@JohnBleazard Who are you to affirm that "theism" is a fraud? Why don't you try to stick to your league? Are you going to explain us how the whole universe functions? Can you do that? If you can't-which is a fact, for sure-expose your thinking with less conceitness. If Sandra Tanner says that Mpormonism is a fraud, she is also failing, in a gross way. The church as a wordly organization lead by men, can make, eventually, a lot of mistakes, but that is not enough to call "Mormonism" a fraud.
@MrManumona I would not presume to instruct anyone on the functions of the universe. The Facts, Evidence, Reason, and Logic League would not approve of that. The evidence regarding the hoax and fraud of Mormonism is ubiquitous and easy to find on your own. The case against theism is simply that there is no evidence: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In the absence of such evidence, the claim must be rejected. Case dismissed for lack of evidence. I hope this helps.
@JohnBleazard I've heard from many Atheists who treat Christians like myself like we are stupid and don't use reason. Well, faith isn't about reason. Nonetheless, perhaps the reason you think we are stupid is because we understand that there is a spiritual side to this life and another life after this one. If you don't understand that there is more to this life than what we physically sense, then Christianity does seem ridiculous. Perhaps you are the close-minded one here, not us Christians.
@JohnBleazard I've heard from many Atheists who treat Christians like myself like we are stupid and don't use reason. Well, faith isn't about reason. Nonetheless, perhaps the reason you think we are stupid is because we understand that there is a spiritual side to this life and another life after this one. If you don't understand that there is more to this life than what we physically sense, then Christianity does seem ridiculous. Perhaps you are the close-minded one here, not us Christians.
Nothing in the 1832 account states, however, that there was only one personage. If you tell someone that you had visited with the President of the United States, does this mean that the Vice President and First Lady were not present? Just because this early account mentions only one personage, we should not assume that there was only one personage. The emphasis in this 1832 account is that the Lord had visited Joseph Smith and told him that his sins were forgiven.
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.
Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, and blood atonment.
The word Bible means A Library of Books, its Greek, Ea. writer spoke for himself. It didn't become a Book as you know it until about 150 yrs. after Christ. The philosophers of the greek influenced period ripped it up a bit, actually that started with Plato 650 yrs before. he taught that the only thing that could exist forever, is the truth, the beautiful, and the good, from this he created the One God which religions teach today or NeoPlatoism. Paul speaks for himseld as Moses did lds.org
"But we may have become complacent. Don't we send out full-time missionaries? Isn't that enough? Aren't we "the fastest growing religion"? Actually, we're not. Church growth has been falling for many years, and our current rate of missionary success is the lowest it's been for decades." Daniel C. Peterson For Mormon Times in Deseret News April 7, 2011
You go Sandra, Tell poeple about the truth of Jesus Christ, the truth the life and the way. Amen!! His my way, my way to heaven. His my life, my eternal life, and his truth, and the truth has set me free, and free indeed. Amen Amen
Be carefull, these christian pastors they only want your money, they are servants of the devil as we were tought, return to the church of GOD LDS Church
I have never felt excepted and have felt even aggression toward my prescence at sunday church. I simply don't go to christian church , I got the message many years ago. There is not alot you can do about so called christian attitude.
I left the lds from reading anti-mormon material, some of it yours. This was over 30 years ago. My experiences with christianity have been god awful. Once people know your an ex-mormon, are treated very coldly. One minister would be friendly to everyone but couldn't even shake my hand on sunday at church. He would deliberately bypass me each and every sunday. In the end he lost his church and congregation. I think you need to work out your own issues befor you go after exmormons.
Wow! This lady almost sounds like she knows what she's talking about. Honestly though, it all sums up to mere opinion. How does Sandra Tanner pretend to know the real intentions and motivation of faithful latter day saints? Just because she's unable to see past her own intricate web of lies, which she's been spinning for so many years now, doesn't mean that informed Mormons don't have valid explanations for the endless false dilemas the critics claim.
@101mythbuster I don't see any lies here. On the subject of lies, the church accepted Mark Hoffman's lies ( and his letters) while the Salt Lake City Messenger (the Tanners' newsletter) exposed him! There is that famous picture of Kimball and Hoffman together and the poor old guy had no idea he was being taken in. All that money for fake letters.
@101mythbuster Could you perhaps cite one of the lies in Sandra's web? I can probably help you see that it is a misunderstanding and misquotation. Even Mormon scholars, such as Daniel C.Peterson, have praised the Tanners.
@bossendenwoodconvict I think that "praised" is hardly the case. I'm sure that Peterson was merely giving due credit. I too recognize the extensive lengths to which the Tanners have gone to back up their claims. It's exactly what makes their spin so elaborate. It's hard to say wether Sandra Tanner is a real deciever of men or just been at this for so long that she's become completely full of herself.
In The Deseret News of May 16th 1998 there is an article, "Tanners Are A Wellspring of Documents" which is favourable to the Tanners. There are quotes from it in issue 94 of The Salt Lake City Messenger. Nobody seems to be able to say WHY Sandra is wrong. You have not provided any specifics.
@bossendenwoodconvict The specifics are too numerous to cover but I will say this: Sandra claims that the issues in Mormonism are so numerous that it leads people to eventually leaving the church, but at the same time neglects to mention being greatly responsible for spinning many of these false dilemas. She recognizes that many in the LDS community are aware of these issues but fails to acknowledge the real reason they remain faithful is that these issues in reality are all smoke & mirrors.
@101mythbuster Don't try to cover all of them, one example would be enough. If you could find an example of one her "false dilemas" I would be able to look into it for you. There is probably an explanation. As I mentioned,the Tanners were the first to print criticism of the salamander letter (See Salt Lake City Messenger Sep 1984, Jan 1985, June 1985 and August 1985). This letter WAS false and could have harmed the church. As it was the church's acceptance of it put them in a false dilema!
@bossendenwoodconvict Well let's see; She made a statement to the effect that Mormon leaders today have authority to change or revise previous revelations given by former prophets, which is completely false. Critics like her often point to polygamy and Adam-God doctrine as evidence of LDS departure from original teachings, when in reality Mormons have never renounced a belief in the principle celestial marriage, and in the case of the latter, Adam-God was never an accepted doctrine at all.
@101mythbuster "How much unbelief exists in the minds of Latter-Day-Saints in regard to one particular doctrine that I revealed to them and which God revealed to me...namely that Adam is our Father and our God." Brigham Young,Journal of Discourses, June 18th, 1873. Chapter 8 of The Changing World of Mormonism, is very helpful explaining the Adam-God doctrine and the book can be found in full on line.
Chapter 3 deals with the changes to the original revelations.
@bossendenwoodconvict You left out the next part of that quote where Young states "I DO NOT KNOW, I do not inquire, I CARE NOTHING ABOUT IT. Our Father Adam HELPED to make this earth, it was created expressly FOR HIM, and after it was made HE and his COMPANIONS came here" The quote which you provide only suggests that Adam is the patriarch and head God over this world, and in this case Brigham does not equate him to Elohim. This is perfectly in harmony with current LDS teachings.
@101mythbuster Thanks for that. Young seems to be saying he cares nothing about the UNBELIEF of his followers in the Adam God doctrine. He cares about the doctrine and restates his belief in Adam being God in the next few lines. Is Adam the father of our spirits or Elohim? Is Elohim our Father or Grandfather?
@bossendenwoodconvict Look, the point here is that whatever B.Y. said about Adam in earlier talks in later talks he contradicted himself. His theory seems to have evolved into more orthodox LDS belief in his later years although he really never openly admited error. The main thing is that B.Y. was alone in his ideas which were never really accepted by the general membership, nor the remaining apostles. B.Y. may have been president but his authority did not supersede that of the quorum of the12.
@bossendenwoodconvict FACT: Out of 1500 recorded discourses delivered by Brigham Young only 20 of these breifly mention this topic. The majority of these which make up the latter part of his talks can be easily reconciled into mainstream Mormonism. Sandra tanner's spin may be quite shocking to the many unsuspecting Mormons she's helped derail but to Mormons in the know her accusation don't hold any water.
@101mythbuster The problem is he seems so unequivocal about his beliefs in these instances. There is no mistaking what he means because he expands on it. From the journals of mormons at the time we know they were very troubled by the doctrine. They had no problem understanding what he meant.
Anyway, as a modern Mormon do you believe Adam is your Heavenly Father, or Elohim?
@bossendenwoodconvict No doubt many Mormons at the time were troubled by his words. This only supports the fact that this was never an accepted doctrine. But what the general membership understood is a completely separate matter from what Brigham actually meant. This issue is not as straight forward as critics like to think. A careful analysis of all his collective statements leaves one with doubt as to wether his statements were really as contraversial as people have interpreted them.
@bossendenwoodconvict To answer your question, of course I do not believe Adam is my hevenly father. I'm also well aware that B.Y. made statements to the contrary so save yourself the trouble of posting them. However, it is also unclear if he was actually referring to the biblical personage by the name Adam or to Elohim himself. As I'm sure you know, LDS believe the name Adam is a generic title given to the first man of every earth, and that God himself was once a mortal man on his own earth.
@101mythbuster So if B.Y. made statements to the contrary, isn't it unfair to say that antis are putting spin on them or even lying? Can't you allow them to have a different interpretation? (Actually the same one many mormons of Young's day had according to their own writings.)
@bossendenwoodconvict Again, B.Y.'s statements are not totally conclusive from the prespective of his collective teachings. To make any negative commentary on just a few of his words is to speculate on his intent. For this same reason, Adam-God may be the only instance in which LDS do not have an adequate response for the critics. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but when they turn into attempts at defamation it becomes completely unethical. If only their endless attacks stopped there.
@101mythbusterFirsly, I am pleased you seem to acknowledge the LDS response is not adequate here. Secondly, there are some anti mormons who defame mormon leaders.I don't think Sandra Tanner is one of them. Saying BY believed in Adam-God is hardly defamation. S.T. was brought up to admire her famous ancestor and it was being shocked by reading his sermons that started her research. If you live near S.L.C why not visit her?
@bossendenwoodconvict "why not visit her?" You're so kind but no thanks. Sandra Tanner is not "one of them" you say? I guess when she calls J.S. a "pedophile" she's not really trying to defame him, right? Please don't interpret my acknowledgement about B.Y.'s statements as me having doubts about the church. My testimony remains intact. I am merely stating that the church has no response because, put simply, BY was wrong. Priesthood authority has never been a badge of infallibility in any age.
@101mythbuster It's refreshing that you acknowledge the problem with the Adam God doctrine. I know S.T. believes Smith married a 14 year old. If she is wrong, perhaps point that out to her. In the 1990's she presented strong evidence against claims that Gordon Hinckley was an active Bisexual in the 1960's. Her research was very thorough and very favourable to the church.(See newsletter 84) S.L.C. Messenger.
@bossendenwoodconvict Please, the church hardly needs any help from Sandra. Although she has enough influence among the anti-Mormons that she could set alot of other things straight if she wanted to, but she doesn't. She's just not willing to retract on her false claims.And yes, JS was sealed to a 14yr. old but there is no evidence of any conjugal relations taking place to qualify him as a pedophile. Joseph believed many of the women he married were already predestined to him, regardless of age.
@bossendenwoodconvict Here's a quote from one of ST's own sources which shows just how "honest" her claims are. "The Tanners made great mileage out of Joseph Smith's marriage to his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball. However, they failed to mention that I wrote that there is absolutely no evidence that there was any sexuality in the marriage... All the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage"-Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness:The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith.
@bossendenwoodconvict I guess you're really going to milk this "B.Y. was wrong" thing, aren't you? Wether B.Y. was right or wrong is entirely besides the point. I have already made it clear that Adam-God was never an accepted fundamental Mormon doctrine and therefore ST's claims that the church has departed from it's original teachings is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. If you do not see this it's because you chose not to. But from an LDS perspective she's a talented teller of tales.
@101mythbuster I said we had been through it (Adam God) and asked if there was anything else to discuss. S.T.'s claims that the Church has departed from it's original teachings are not only based on Adam God. The Mormons have also changed their minds about plural marriage, the blacks, etc.
I can't remember if you told me, but how long have you been with the mormons?
@bossendenwoodconvict I am 3rd gen. Mormon. We both know that the church has not abandoned their belief in plural marriage, only it's illegal practice. Everyone knows that politacal pressure is the sole reason for this. Also, the eternal covenant of celestial marriage is still very much practiced today regardless of any number of wives, and when a man becomes a widow he is free to be sealed to a second wife without annuling the first marriage. Please explain what the doctrine of "the blacks" is.
@101mythbuster If you look at issue 102 of The Salt Lake City Messenger (May 2004) it is dedicated to the whole anti black issue. Very detailed. Re: Plural marriage. Perhaps it is more correct to say the LDS have abandoned their belief in the practice rather than the doctrine.
@bossendenwoodconvict Statements made by early church leaders with regard to the African race were never intended as racist or "anti black", but merely reflected their doctrinal views. I don't know of any publication by the Church stating LDS have "abandoned their belief" in anything. The time when blacks would recieve the priesthood had been promised for a future generation and eventually came by revelation, just as when the Gospel blessings were extended unto the Gentiles by Peter in OT times.
@bossendenwoodconvict Is that a trick question? Does believing in the decrees of God for a particular race make me a racist? Is God a racist? Maybe you'd care to ask that question to one of our African American Mormon brothers instead.
@bossendenwoodconvict If you're looking for a simple answer then my response is yes, however, I believe them only within their true and proper context and from an LDS perspective, not in the context which the critics wish to give them.
@bossendenwoodconvict Honestly, I'm surprised you weren't trying to catch me in some kind of racial debate. But anyway, regarding Tanner, so far she has shown to be dishonest about every thing I mentioned. Is there anything else you wish to "clarify"?
@101mythbuster Well we saw she was right (and B.Y. wrong) over Adam God and didn't get much beyond that. She hasn't been dishonest about anything and is rarely wrong. She was, for a short while, prepared to believe Hoffman's letters,( just like the mormon leaders,) but eventually came round to her husband's view point that Hoffman was a fraud. The second part of "A Fireside With Sandra Tanner" gives the details towards the end.
@bossendenwoodconvict It would seem you're having trouble following the conversation. The church has recognized Young's error ever since his death. All Sandra T. has done is spin the facts out of proportion. I don't know why critics like to always mention the Hoffman forgeries, as if somehow they proved anything. Until Hoffman's confession, the church always maintained a position that the letter's authenticity could neither be confirmed or denied. I'm afraid your infallible prophetess is a con.
@101mythbuster Does the fact the church spent thousands buying Hoffman's work suggest they thought his work was: A) Authentic? B) False? A one letter answer is enough. To help you consider this: Would you, for example, spend thousands on a famous painting if you weren't sure if it was genuine or not?
@bossendenwoodconvict Check your facts. Hinckley turned down Hoffman's asking price for the Salamander letter numerous times because it was simply too high. The church eventually ended all negotiations with his agent. It was over a year later when Steven F.Christensen as a private member purchased the letter and, after having experts determine its authenticity, DONATED it to the church. If Hoffman had never ultimately confessed, everyone including Sandra T. would still never have been the wiser.
@101mythbuster The 2nd part of her fireside reveals Sandra came to believe Hoffman's documents were false. She started handing out literatureabout it at the Sunstone symposium. The next day Hoffman visited her shop and seemed on the point of tears as the Tanners, of all people were questioning his work. So we see that some had already wised up to Hoffman. The Tanners,(without being prophets) knew he was a fake; Kimball and Hinckley did not. The Church knew what Christensen was doing throughout.
@bossendenwoodconvict I am sure that Sandra Tanners close aquaintance with Hoffman made her a lot more keen on his dishonest nature. I guess it takes a liar to know a liar. Clearly, Hinckley was not fully convinced either. Your expectations for God's anointed are totally unrealistic. A prophet is not a mind reader. The only one I know who can do that is God.
@101mythbuster Close aquaintance? Did she give Hoffman items worth $20,000 for the Anthon transcript? Did she pose with him and allow the pictures to appear in numerous publications? Did she write him a cheque for $15,000 as Hinckley did for the Josiah Stowel letter?No, but mormon leaders did all this.THEY had a close aquaintance with Hoffman. We have seen S.T. is honest. She debunked things that could have hurt the church. No disnonest nature and no close aquaintance with Hoffman.
@bossendenwoodconvict Look, no one is saying ST doesn't believe her own claims. Clearly she is decieved like many other apostates. Anyone looking to find fault in anything will eventually find it. I'm not saying many of her sources are not factual, it's all about the negative commentary and spin she gives them. Her blind bias does not permit her to see things in their true light. She had no intrest in protecting the church from Hoffman's lies, only in asserting her own version of things.
@101mythbuster Her interest in protecting the church from lies is easy to explain. The case against mormonism must be built on genuine documents and evidence. It's no good putting false claims into the public arena; you'll eventually get caught out. If the Tanners had accepted Hoffman's work the LDS apologists would use this against them, despite the churches own dealings with Hoffman! Instead the affair raised theTanner's credibility as we have seen from D.C. Peterson's positive comments.
@bossendenwoodconvict "If the Tanners had accepted Hoffman's work the LDS apologists would use this against them," You have only supported my point further. The Tanners had no interest in the truth, only in their own credibility. Sandra is a careful and calculating liar.
@bossendenwoodconvict "until they [the Tanners] are prepared to abide by accepted standards of scholarly behavior and common courtesy, they can expect little sympathy from serious historians...refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standard of absolute rectitude which they demand....The Tanners seem to be playing a skilful shell game in which the premises for judgment are conveniently shifted so that the conclusion is always the same—negative." Lawrence Foster, non-Mormon historian.
@101mythbuster You've said she believes her own claims and her sources are factual.
If she believes her own claims and her sources are factual then we can at least allow her to be honest, (even though supposedly wrong in the conclusions she draws from the sources.) So instead of calling her "a liar" perhaps say she "is mistaken." Or say "I disagree with..." and then explain why.
@bossendenwoodconvict Mybe you're right on that piont, but then, people often justify themselves in their unethical practices. It seems Sandra Tanner is under the influence of a lying spirit. Anyone who is not of the truth is a liar, wether they know it or not.
@101mythbuster That's quite a frightening thought. How is anyone to know who is under the influence of these lying spirits or not? The Tanners' rebuttal of charges against Hinckley and rejection of Hofmann's documents were favourable from a Mormon viewpoint. Were their lying spirits on vacation then?
@bossendenwoodconvict How do we know? By the spirit of truth of course. How does one know the difference? Only someone unaquainted with the spirit of truth would ask such a question. One honest deed does not make someone an honest person, especially if they did it out of self interest. The devil will tell a hundred truths to make one lie, and he does not sleep.
It seems then that if the Tanners had accepted Hofmann's work they would be damned but as they rejected it they are also be damned. This is prejudice.
Re: The Spirit of truth. Lots of different religions believe they have it and "KNOW" beyond a shadow of a doubt they are right. They can't all be...so we have to evaluate them by the evidence.
@bossendenwoodconvict No one is condeming the Tanners for their rejection of Hoffman's forgeries, but rather for their numerous other falsehoods. How is this prejudice? Plenty of scholars have already evaluated their work and found it to be replete with bias and speculation. However, to those earnestly seeking to know if the church is true, only the spirit of truth will suffice.
@101mythbuster Yes, but when we look at a particular issue related to mormonism, and get beyond personal criticisms people throw at them, we find they are right. "Answering Mormon Scholars" 1& 2 deals with most of the criticisms.
RE: Lying spirits etc. All sides in a discussion could accuse the other of being under the influence of spirits, claim they had the true spirit etc... but they would never move forward. At the end of the day we all have to submit ourselves to the evidence.
@bossendenwoodconvict All scholarly criticism about the Tanners has been entirely about their work, not their personal affairs, both from Mormon or non-Mormon scholars. There is nothing to "get beyond" here. Their whole approach to the "issues" is the problem. I am sure that, since their claims support your own beliefs, you feel inclined to believe them, but you're only buying into a straw man image of the church . At the end of the day, all that really matters is the witness of the Holy Ghost.
@101mythbuster We've looked at two issues- and on both the Tanners were right. Whatever their "approach" it has led them to the right conclusions. Re: Personal criticims of the Tanners. In "Answering Mormon Scholars 1&2" we find the Mormon scholars have made very personal attacks on the Tanners. Why don't they just deal with the issues?
These books (AMS 1&2) would be of great interest to you. Read them and see.
@bossendenwoodconvict "Why don't they just deal with the issues?" Well, I'll tell you why, it's because the so called "issues" are entirely a fabrication of the Tanners and their misrepresentation of things. The facts themselves are not the problem, but the implications which they like to give them. Hence, addressing the Tanner's methods is addressing the "issues". I must have missed some part of the conversation but please remind me, what were these "two issues" the Tanners are right about?
martinmaas, Sandra Tanner provides a service. She tells all inquiring minds the truth because the Lds church only says what sounds and looks good. If you want your ear tickled, you can get that on Pro mormon sites. Its simple.
TheSoulamore 20 hours ago
Are you paid to talk poorly about the Mormons? How sad that you aren't out teaching about Christ or God...instead you are critical of other people that you chose not to agree with. I know many good Mormons. I know many good Catholics, Lutherans, Baptist, Johovah Witness, Protestants, Jews, and Buddhist. Never would I try to tell others what they believe is wrong. It's a personal search. I think the growth of the Mormon church shows that there are many happy people. Share those stories.
martinmaas4 2 days ago
This is a nice video, but unfortunately, I agree with the notion that the NT is an questionable source for uncorrupted information. I do, though, feel affinity for Lord Śrī Jesus.
parkerjwill 3 days ago
This lady means well. She's on a mission. But there are millions of very happy Mormons out there despite any historic discrepancies. No religion is going to be perfect as long as imperfect people are running things. You can find fault with ALL organized religions out there.
armchairjudge 5 days ago
Moroni was a demon or made up by sexual predator Joesph Smith who was convicted of fraud in New Jersy looking for buried treasure using his famous peep stones
Playongolf 1 week ago
Jesus is all you need! That's it. No works, no temples, no ordinances, no rituals, no songs, no marriage, no authority, etc.
Jesus can provide all that because He ALONE is sufficient to save you. Your work is worthless to a HOLY God, unless it is perfect. Even the work you do is steeped in YOUR SELF SERVING WILL. Stop trying to please God and WORSHIP HIM, that's it! WORSHIP JESUS!
godswordsheal 1 week ago
@godswordsheal
Reality is all you need. That's it.
No magic invisible sky-gods, no books of ancient superstitions, no mythical demi-gods that supposedly died for our sins and mystically rose from the dead, no preachers who get paid for making people feel like they are part of a special superior club, no brainwashing, etc.
Reality, common sense and critical thought can provide sanity and stability sufficient to save you. Stop worshiping and start working to help in reality.
NarkAnon 1 week ago
@NarkAnon There is no reality outside of Jesus. You only claim some insight into reality because you've lived a life supported by something/someone greater than yourself. The only brainwashing is self-brainwashing when people fool themselves into believing they do it on their own and they deserve credit. Nope, you don't...now stop worshiping yourself.
godswordsheal 6 days ago
@godswordsheal
Actually, I don't believe I've done it on my own. I believe I've been taught right from wrong and how to be considerate of others by my parents and other good examples over my life. That's reality.
But go ahead and try to feign logic in stating that there is no reality outside an invisible supernatural legend that might give you a good feeling by believing in it, but you'll never be able to prove is real outside of your own mind. You're just like the Mormons.
NarkAnon 5 days ago
@NarkAnon Yet you don't seem to see the inconsistent pride that radiates from your statements. Somehow, you think that there is something called proof and you think that you have a hold on what that is, not to mention you have this amazing insight into the knowledge I have. So, while you continue to bow down to the ultimate authority that is yourself, I will bow down to someone worthy of it. Feel free to continue to follow a path towards death, or turn to your savior, your choice.
godswordsheal 4 days ago
@godswordsheal
Can you see the irony of you condemning me for supposedly making "prideful" statements when the thing that started this exchange was you declaring all the things that Mormons are doing wrong in the way they worship?
What amazing insight you must have into the knowledge Mormons have, eh?
You're free to bow down to whatever intangible, illogical legendary being you want, but so are others. The results are the same.
NarkAnon 4 days ago
Did they tell you that Smith said that Moroni was really a time traveling space Alien>
dukeof1999 1 week ago
Amazing and I can see the Holy Spirit in all she's speaking,,
BizChangerZ 2 weeks ago
MORMONISM IS NOT A CHRISTIAN RELIGION! BE CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LEAD INTO THE DECEPTION OF THIS PROVEN FALSE RELIGION!
I read this book and highly recommend it for everyone who is looking in to this blasphemous religion that can take your soul to hell. The author grew up in the Mormon Church and it is a completely FALSE RELIGION!
Arm yourselves! Read the book: “CAN MITT ROMNEY SERVE TWO MASTERS? The Mormon Church Versus The Office Of The Presidency of the United States of America”
certainlytruthful 3 weeks ago
I see and hear a lot about how The LDS church is wrong, so tell me how did the church harm your life ? did they steal from you ? did they ask you to do anything that was not wholesome and good for you or others ? what have they done to you ? One of the apostles were crying and carrying on about Jesus and all the stuff he had to do and someone said to him well leave then and he said, where shall I go Jesus has and is offering me everlasting life, what can you offer me ?
2MyTubes 3 weeks ago
@2MyTubes Simple, the church (specifically Joseph Smith) claimed that God/Jesus told him that all Christian churches are false...and nowadays so-called apostles and prophets claim that the LDS church is the only true church on the face of the earth.
godswordsheal 2 weeks ago
I find your statement, You can't start out bad and end up good" "if it's True it starts out true" if that is true how come Geneses tells us about Adam & Eve ? They started out True and then made a mistake and were put away from God because of it and then God had to fix it, by sending Jesus, this is a normal Christian belief, so if they started out wrong, are you saying we can never draw close to god again ever ? I does not feel right to me and seems to me it is a bit black and white.
2MyTubes 3 weeks ago
@2MyTubes The story of A&E isn't comparable to the idea of truth. A&E were created by God and given free will, thus when they sinned it was their doing. Truth is an abstract that has no personality or ability, it is only a category of information. With the LDS church...the first vision is false. Not only are there different versions that don't match, the first vision does not meet the requirements of witnesses (D&C 128:3, Matt 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1 )...more
godswordsheal 2 weeks ago
@godswordsheal But can you offer me ever lasting life ? or only take away faith from the earth ? I have received nothing here that testifies to Jesus or Heavenly Father, just a lot of opinions, you are allowed to have them, so please grant me the same right as you take so readily.
2MyTubes 2 weeks ago
@2MyTubes Of course I can't offer you anything! I would never advocate or even hint that you or anyone else should lose faith...I would only tell you to quit believing in false prophets/false doctrines because the Bible says clearly that you will be held responsible for what you believe, You will not be able to claim ignorance.
godswordsheal 2 weeks ago
@godswordsheal You do not know what i believe or don't believe, it is not about what i believe it is about your comments,, and I do not hear you, teaching or bring any glory to god or his Son here, just a woman taking away faith, I can only comment on what I see and that is what i see, i am sorry if you do't like it although that is my responsibility, it is yours you are saying it not me, I am not attacking you, or your cause but it gives nothing to anyone.
2MyTubes 2 weeks ago
@2MyTubes It's unfortunate. If you have faith in what is wrong then wouldn't you want to know it so you could get rid of it? You speak as if you, yourself are promoting faith in something/anything...instead you put up post challenging the video so that you can continue to believe in whatever it is you do believe. If you had no beliefs similar to the ones that are spoken against then you are more deceitful than anything else, certainly not faith promoting.
godswordsheal 1 week ago
@2MyTubes 2.When you are up against a false belief you must first take that away because there is no space for both to exist, at least not when they are both about the same subject. Obviously you can't believe in two doctrines about the same idea at the same time, in the same sense. And that is the problem I see with Mormonism, they take the true gospel message and add (ad infinitum) to it, thus diluting its power in their life. That's worth taking away.
godswordsheal 1 week ago
@2MyTubes 2.it was unnecessary (3 Nephi 28:18-23), the strongest part is that it was impossible according to D&C 84:19-22!
godswordsheal 2 weeks ago
I would like to hear about your testimony, did you just feel nothing, see nothing, hear nothing ? or were you told directly in some way it was not true ?
2MyTubes 3 weeks ago
Joseph Smith contradiction:
I will preach on the plurality of gods. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" ("King Follett Discourse") = Changeable and not eternal.
"I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18) = Unchangeable and eternal.
chanses2 1 month ago
This lady forgets what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. Or maybe she doesn't understand it. Peter, after spending several years with Christ himself, seeing many miracles performed, he actually walked on water himself for a bit, still in the end denied that he knew Christ three times. Yet he became the head of Christ's Church. Even when Christ was on the Earth his chosen leaders his disciples were not perfect and made mistakes. You sound like the Pharisees.
thehood400 1 month ago
@thehood400 Mormonism is a false relgion it teaches something contradictory to the Gospel.
jayhawk88z 1 month ago
mormons tell her this and mormons tell her that how muj of it is true?? good story teller
triskskstah 1 month ago
Thank you so much for this video Aaron. Please pray for my sister to believe in Jesus and His saving grace, and please pray with me for the entire paternal side of my family, as they are all Mormons.
Thank you so much.
Research0digo 2 months ago
There is Heavenly power in the LDS church. I was on my way to church one day when I suddenly felt very sick. When I arrived there I received a priesthood blessing. To sick to bother with any meetings , I went into a vacant room and sat down. I started to dose off when I felt the most beautiful, sweetist peaceful feeling go through my body like a breeze and the sickness was gone. This is just one of the many undeniable experiances I have had as a member. It's testimony. to me that it is true.
MrMFHORN 2 months ago
Mormonism is YOUR truth. If you want to believe God is a polygamist as well as being Adam as well as living on a planet near 'Kolob', if you want to believe men will become as God is and populate their own planets with all the wives they will have then hey- knock yourself out and keep paying that 10% tithe and stay 'sweet' like Warren Jeffs says (meaning obedient and not think for yourself). Joseph Smith was a sexual predator of young girls, married wives of men he sent away, he was no prophet
72Vortex 3 months ago
Mormonism is the Truth. I left due to family, but returned ! 20 years later thanks be to God. Those who do leave ? was never ment to be in GODS Church in the first place.
TheUktruth 3 months ago
@TheUktruth How do you like Adam=God Doctrine? I posted some of it and most Mormons don't like it. But since Mormonism is "the restoration" it should be polygamous, too. and it should change it's name back to "Church of Christ" as it first was and was commanded in the BofM. Seems to me Mormonism is in apostasy to itself. Back to Basics?
IExposeMormonism 3 months ago
I believe, with all the research she and her husband have done throughout many years, using the LDS’s own documents and books etc., and checking them against the Bible text, more than qualifies her to know the truth and speak it.
diesbl 3 months ago
This lady speaking, Sandra McGee Tanner, is the great grand daughter of Brigham Young Jr and, of course, the great great grand daughter of Brigham Young Sr
diesbl 3 months ago
The Great Commission is the heartbeat of God. It is a command to every believer and a responsibility for all. It is found throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.
diesbl 3 months ago
Luke 14:23 - "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." We are to be actively looking for people to witness the Gospel of Jesus Christ to. We are commanded to witness to those that need Christ and warn them.
diesbl 3 months ago
I guess some of you here, one of you specifically, would say to JESUS if He were the one standing and saying these things "why do you, if you were the true Savior, give a talk like that and disrespect what others believe and "2nd so that talk was to hate on the mormons?? and where did you get all that info wikipedia????"
diesbl 3 months ago
The Word of God states very clearly who is and who is NOT a child of God and Joseph Smith was not a child of God - he was a child of perdition (The Devil) according to Scripture.
diesbl 3 months ago
All humans are a creation of God - but NOT all of His human creation is a child of God or children of God. Only born-again Christians are children of God and He is our Father.
diesbl 3 months ago
Thank you to the Tanners for exposing the truths about Joseph Smith as the sexual predator he was. He was a fraud and it's amazing to me we as women actually think we are so 'less than' that we believe The almighty Creator would want for us to be sexual slaves for all eternity. Ridiculous. Joseph Smith was simply a child of God like we all are. He was a great storyteller and treasure seeker. He employed Freemasonry into his made up religion with secret handshakes.
72Vortex 3 months ago
@72Vortex loved this post!!
timwhite2005 3 months ago
ok first of all if you were a true christian why would you give a talk like that and disrespect what other people believe. 2nd so that talk was to hate on the mormons?? and where did she get all that info wikipedia????
slither098 3 months ago
Onstageagain
EvanElberson 4 months ago
#1 reason... they don't like being moral and feeling guilty because they are not moral and the LDS church holds to their morals.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 So you dont sin?!
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
Where did i say that?
The issues is not sin itself... it is pride. Most people can not stand the fact that they can not hold to the commandments. For LDS they end up leaving because the church holds to their morals and they forget about the atonment and fall away. The outside world persecutes them for it also (think Brandon Davies).
BAC just give up altogether.. they believe they are lower then dirt and can do nothing and that Jesus will save them no matter what...
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 When you say #1 reason, they dont like being moral....and the Lds church holds to the morals. You are talking about sin. God told me that you canv get caught up in the morality. Making a statement against another person that they are immoral or they dont like to be moral is a grievous generalization on your part with no facts to back it up and saying BAC just give up altogether! No! They give their lives to God, they give their lives NOT give up the way you are stating.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
All are immoral... some dont like being reminded of that. The LDS church is good at reminding you that you need to do better.
BAC in my view give up. They cling to the OT of their works are dirty and they have no worth. Jesus has cleared the path for us to do greater works.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 No. When the Lds church reminds you that you arent doing good enough, that is condemnation.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
No it is not... all are sinners and all are not condemned. We are to help each other stay on the path... Not ignore each other.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 You dont need religion to do that and the church ignores me now. What is the difference? Its because i told the Bishop that God told me religion is bad because man taints my truth and leads people astray. Now do you help the so called Apostate (who you view as lost)? No, you only help your friend and Jesus says that is easy to do.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
The only one that can help you is you. I'm not sure why people feel better to put the blame on someone else or blame a church or anything else.
You told him you dont like religion... why would they want to bother you?
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 I see you have learned to spin well. I didnt tell him i dont like religion. Calling someone an apostate because they dont believe the way you do anymore, is also another horrible thing the church does like using their own authority to tell someone they are EXCOMMUNICATED (kicked out of the club) Is that the kinda person you want to follow. That person sounds like a belief that fosters condemnation and not salvation. You can spin that, but you would be lying to yourself.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore "i told the Bishop that God told me religion is bad"
OK God told you religion is bad... why would you want them contacting you if you believe that?
Only the prideful take it hard... it cuts them to the bone.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 You are wrong. I was raised in the church and i have always felt that self righteous spirit of religion there. I DONT want to be there around disingenious(fake) people. Its because i wasnt prideful and they all were, so you have it backwards. You should stay on sites that promote your faith. There is no need to comment further if you are here to just prove people wrong.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
LOL...
"i wasnt prideful and they all were"
Now that was not a prideful statement at all...
It was a hoot... thanks for the laugh.
I'm only hear to to promote truth... I'm not Mormon... but you are... and you give Mormons and all Christians a bad name.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 you are a deciever then. Your first statement " #1 reason people leave is because of morality (paraphrasing)" shows that indeed you are Mormon. move along to the Pro Lds sites to show your good works.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
Wow... you sure got me... Only a fool would think that people dont have freedom to believe what they want and have to stick to stereotypes.
Seems like i was right when it came to you leaven... you were to prideful to hang around all the other prideful people so you leave because that pride made you feel too guilty.
Sk8er408 4 months ago
@Sk8er408 Take a hint little one. move along.
TheSoulamore 4 months ago
@TheSoulamore
You already did that...
Sk8er408 4 months ago
i think this woman has probably brought more people into the church than any missionary ever could. Getting people talking about the LDS church is the only way to get them to investigate it for themself. And she single handedly got millions to take a closer look into the LDS faith. Which had to bring hundreds of thousands into it. God does work in mysterious ways..
mikemarco76 4 months ago
@mikemarco76 Not so. It's mostly a ministry TO Mormons, so they would have ALREADY known about the church.
Taking a closer look at mormonism would either make someone leave it or not join. The missionaries do not want someone to look closely at religion. They ask people how they FEEL about the church rather than what they THINK of it. They don't want them to think!
bossendenwoodconvict 4 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict If you read the articles of faith of our religion, it states clearly in Number 11:"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." A Mormon is not a prsoner of the structure of the church or a slave to the authorities of the Church.Many Mormons complain because of the demands from the church, they have not learned to say "NO" ...
MrManumona 4 months ago
according to th dictates of the consciousness.I am Mormon, I do not agree with everything that is going on at the wordly structure of our Church, but that does not mean that I denied in any way that The Chiurch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true restored Church of Jesus Christ on earth. Finally, I answer for my acts and beliefs only toiGod Himself. I believe this, I proclaim this, and I can still be a member of the Church in good standard.Nobody obliges me otherwhise.
MrManumona 4 months ago
@MrManumona I'm sure they do complain they have not learned to say "NO", because if you equate what the church says with God's will how are you going to say "NO" to callings etc. ? I think mormons generally are very self sacrificing and once they come out of the church they suddenly have so much free time because they are no longer on a treadmill so to speak.
bossendenwoodconvict 4 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Yes, you have your point here.But it all comes to the degree of understanding that each one has.The church is certainly NOT God's Will. It is just the earthly providence to help us to better accomplish God' Wil. lMany times Church duties are too demanding, for many people, even exhausting. One has to learn to hear one's own inner voice and to raise his or her own testimony not resting completely on Church's authority which is administered by flesh and bones' men.
MrManumona 4 months ago
Therefore, better than to live the Church and sometimes even the Faith, is to be brave and say, No, I cannot take that much, thank I am sorry, brother.Any mormon that is out there having doubts and suffering because of this do not hesitate to contact me on this issue.
MrManumona 4 months ago
amen!!!
mylovemymoose 5 months ago
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A small replica of gold plates can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Before you give me everything, I feel led to ask you to prove God with a $20 offering."
onstageagain 6 months ago
What about reasons why fellow Christians attack other Christians as a worthwhile Christian endeavor at a Christian church??? I'd like those reasons.
blandinthebasement 6 months ago
@blandinthebasement It's the same reason Mormon missionaries go out for two years. This isn't hard to figure out. These people are doing the same things Mormons themselves do.
Nepthu 6 months ago
@101mythbuster
sorry @bossendenwoodconvict
This is for " myth"Why don't you tell us what they HAVE gotten right I would LOVE to know and please be specific
GlowingMpd 6 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
Why don't you tell us what they HAVE gotten right I would LOVE to know and please be specific
GlowingMpd 6 months ago
She has replaced the myths of Mormonism with the myths of Christianity.
Most of what she says about Mormons is fairly accurate. Everything after
that is bogus and not wasting your time with.
Science, yes.
Any belief in any diety...NO.
gardner90125 7 months ago
i am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints (aka Mormons).
we are taught to respect other churches and other ppl beliefs, why do you hate Mormons and why are you trying to convince everybody our religion and beliefs are so wrong and not true.
if you are a true christian you should be focusing on your own religion and try to be the best you can be, not be bringing other people down because of their different religions or beliefs .
slither098 7 months ago
@slither098
They left the church a long time ago, but they can't leave it alone. The Tanner clan have been some of the biggest ex-Mormon haters out there. They take a few historic facts (out of context, of course), spin them...and present some pretty ridiculous claims.
Sandra has the gall to claim she's a Christian and that she is just doing this "out of love".
Truth be told, she's making a nice living from it. Sorry...but the LDS church has a lay clergy, something she can't lay claim to.
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
@InnerSpaceTravel1 Could you give an example of something Sandra has taken out of context?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
No, I'm not going to sit and argue with you endlessly.
I'm going to instead explain the anti-Mormon's modus operandii:
I waste my time giving clear examples. You'll argue till you're blue in the face...and then move on to another subject when you're shown to be a fraud.
In fact, you're already trying to:
You still haven't provided a link disclosing UTLM's income (something you are demanding the Mormons do), which is the original subject.
Well, where's the link?
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
@slither098 The LDS try to convince people that non mormon churches are wrong and untrue. They believe that other churches have no authority and are in a state of "apostasy." If other churches are not wrong or lacking in some way why do the mormons try to convert people who are already in other churches?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
The Tanners and their Lighthouse Ministry pull in BIG BUCKS. They make a nice living at this sort of thing. They're pretty quiet about that part of their "ministry".
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
@InnerSpaceTravel1 No. UTLM publish a full account of their finances, their ingoings and outgoings.
Does the mormon church do the same? You mention the Tanners (plural.) Jerald is no longer with us.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
That's nice.
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
Could you provide a link? Enquiring minds like to know.
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
Or do you want to charge me $7.00 for a book about your 1983 tax return? No...no no...I'm SURE you're on the up and up.
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
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@InnerSpaceTravel1 Which book are you refering to?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict
Still waiting for the link...
InnerSpaceTravel1 7 months ago
Aaron, I try to avoid using the word "believe." I try to stick to what I know, what can be proved and backed up with evidence. So, I do not know how the universe came to be. I know, however, there is no evidence that it was the act of a supernatural being, such as what people commonly refer to as god.
JohnBleazard 7 months ago
I have heard a lot of good things about this lady and her husband and their work exposing the fraud of Mormonism. However, I am very underwhelmed and unimpressed listening to and watching this video and realizing that she has simply traded one fraud for another. I wonder why she has not been able to focus her critical, analytical eye on the delusion of theism the same way she has with the delusion of Mormonism.
JohnBleazard 7 months ago
@JohnBleazard You mean you'd rather he be like one of those rational atheists that believes that the universes popped into being uncaused out of nothing?
aaronshaf2006 7 months ago 11
@aaronshaf2006 No, I'm sure he believes the scientific evidence pointing to the likelihood of all of the universe's mass originating from a massive singularity, instead of thinking that the Earth is 6000 years old and "all those dinosaur bones were just put there to confuse us". Scientists try to disprove their own theories to find truth; theists rationalize bizarre myths so they don't have to believe the truth.
interneteffects 7 months ago
@aaronshaf2006 Amen...
butterflie2484 6 months ago
@JohnBleazard I've wondered if she has questions about her new faith too. I read her book "A Look At Christianity" and it seems she and her husband had a relatively liberal view of hell. They seemed quite apologetic about it. She is such a nice person and it must pain her to believe in such a doctrine. IF her new faith is a fraud, it is at least not a dishonest scam like mormonism. Rather myths and tradition that evolved over the centuries based on genuine historical peoples.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@JohnBleazard The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
cpqarray 5 months ago
@JohnBleazard Who are you to affirm that "theism" is a fraud? Why don't you try to stick to your league? Are you going to explain us how the whole universe functions? Can you do that? If you can't-which is a fact, for sure-expose your thinking with less conceitness. If Sandra Tanner says that Mpormonism is a fraud, she is also failing, in a gross way. The church as a wordly organization lead by men, can make, eventually, a lot of mistakes, but that is not enough to call "Mormonism" a fraud.
MrManumona 4 months ago
@MrManumona I would not presume to instruct anyone on the functions of the universe. The Facts, Evidence, Reason, and Logic League would not approve of that. The evidence regarding the hoax and fraud of Mormonism is ubiquitous and easy to find on your own. The case against theism is simply that there is no evidence: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." In the absence of such evidence, the claim must be rejected. Case dismissed for lack of evidence. I hope this helps.
JohnBleazard 4 months ago
@JohnBleazard I've heard from many Atheists who treat Christians like myself like we are stupid and don't use reason. Well, faith isn't about reason. Nonetheless, perhaps the reason you think we are stupid is because we understand that there is a spiritual side to this life and another life after this one. If you don't understand that there is more to this life than what we physically sense, then Christianity does seem ridiculous. Perhaps you are the close-minded one here, not us Christians.
RoseMaddison 4 months ago
@JohnBleazard I've heard from many Atheists who treat Christians like myself like we are stupid and don't use reason. Well, faith isn't about reason. Nonetheless, perhaps the reason you think we are stupid is because we understand that there is a spiritual side to this life and another life after this one. If you don't understand that there is more to this life than what we physically sense, then Christianity does seem ridiculous. Perhaps you are the close-minded one here, not us Christians.
RoseMaddison 4 months ago
Nothing in the 1832 account states, however, that there was only one personage. If you tell someone that you had visited with the President of the United States, does this mean that the Vice President and First Lady were not present? Just because this early account mentions only one personage, we should not assume that there was only one personage. The emphasis in this 1832 account is that the Lord had visited Joseph Smith and told him that his sins were forgiven.
go to fairlds.org for more.
scottwins2 8 months ago
Look at the votes on here, nobody believes her.
scottwins2 8 months ago
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@scottwins2
Mormon forefathers bore their testimonies for a different set of doctrines that are now said to be false by the current LDS church.
Some of these doctrines were: Adam as God, polygamy is essential to salvation, blacks will be denied the priesthood until the second comming of Christ, and blood atonment.
endofus 8 months ago
The word Bible means A Library of Books, its Greek, Ea. writer spoke for himself. It didn't become a Book as you know it until about 150 yrs. after Christ. The philosophers of the greek influenced period ripped it up a bit, actually that started with Plato 650 yrs before. he taught that the only thing that could exist forever, is the truth, the beautiful, and the good, from this he created the One God which religions teach today or NeoPlatoism. Paul speaks for himseld as Moses did lds.org
scottwins2 8 months ago
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"But we may have become complacent. Don't we send out full-time missionaries? Isn't that enough? Aren't we "the fastest growing religion"? Actually, we're not. Church growth has been falling for many years, and our current rate of missionary success is the lowest it's been for decades." Daniel C. Peterson For Mormon Times in Deseret News April 7, 2011
Shulamitefire 8 months ago
You go Sandra, Tell poeple about the truth of Jesus Christ, the truth the life and the way. Amen!! His my way, my way to heaven. His my life, my eternal life, and his truth, and the truth has set me free, and free indeed. Amen Amen
Chinaculiacan 8 months ago 4
Be carefull, these christian pastors they only want your money, they are servants of the devil as we were tought, return to the church of GOD LDS Church
garrulah 8 months ago
I have never felt excepted and have felt even aggression toward my prescence at sunday church. I simply don't go to christian church , I got the message many years ago. There is not alot you can do about so called christian attitude.
mymellofello 9 months ago
I left the lds from reading anti-mormon material, some of it yours. This was over 30 years ago. My experiences with christianity have been god awful. Once people know your an ex-mormon, are treated very coldly. One minister would be friendly to everyone but couldn't even shake my hand on sunday at church. He would deliberately bypass me each and every sunday. In the end he lost his church and congregation. I think you need to work out your own issues befor you go after exmormons.
mymellofello 9 months ago
Sandra Tanner, you are a brave wonderful woman.
runrchik1 9 months ago 4
Wow! This lady almost sounds like she knows what she's talking about. Honestly though, it all sums up to mere opinion. How does Sandra Tanner pretend to know the real intentions and motivation of faithful latter day saints? Just because she's unable to see past her own intricate web of lies, which she's been spinning for so many years now, doesn't mean that informed Mormons don't have valid explanations for the endless false dilemas the critics claim.
101mythbuster 9 months ago
@101mythbuster I don't see any lies here. On the subject of lies, the church accepted Mark Hoffman's lies ( and his letters) while the Salt Lake City Messenger (the Tanners' newsletter) exposed him! There is that famous picture of Kimball and Hoffman together and the poor old guy had no idea he was being taken in. All that money for fake letters.
bossendenwoodconvict 8 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Thanks for sharing. Now get a life!
101mythbuster 8 months ago
@101mythbuster Could you perhaps cite one of the lies in Sandra's web? I can probably help you see that it is a misunderstanding and misquotation. Even Mormon scholars, such as Daniel C.Peterson, have praised the Tanners.
bossendenwoodconvict 8 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict I think that "praised" is hardly the case. I'm sure that Peterson was merely giving due credit. I too recognize the extensive lengths to which the Tanners have gone to back up their claims. It's exactly what makes their spin so elaborate. It's hard to say wether Sandra Tanner is a real deciever of men or just been at this for so long that she's become completely full of herself.
101mythbuster 8 months ago
@101mythbuster
In The Deseret News of May 16th 1998 there is an article, "Tanners Are A Wellspring of Documents" which is favourable to the Tanners. There are quotes from it in issue 94 of The Salt Lake City Messenger. Nobody seems to be able to say WHY Sandra is wrong. You have not provided any specifics.
bossendenwoodconvict 8 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict The specifics are too numerous to cover but I will say this: Sandra claims that the issues in Mormonism are so numerous that it leads people to eventually leaving the church, but at the same time neglects to mention being greatly responsible for spinning many of these false dilemas. She recognizes that many in the LDS community are aware of these issues but fails to acknowledge the real reason they remain faithful is that these issues in reality are all smoke & mirrors.
101mythbuster 8 months ago
@101mythbuster Don't try to cover all of them, one example would be enough. If you could find an example of one her "false dilemas" I would be able to look into it for you. There is probably an explanation. As I mentioned,the Tanners were the first to print criticism of the salamander letter (See Salt Lake City Messenger Sep 1984, Jan 1985, June 1985 and August 1985). This letter WAS false and could have harmed the church. As it was the church's acceptance of it put them in a false dilema!
bossendenwoodconvict 8 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Well let's see; She made a statement to the effect that Mormon leaders today have authority to change or revise previous revelations given by former prophets, which is completely false. Critics like her often point to polygamy and Adam-God doctrine as evidence of LDS departure from original teachings, when in reality Mormons have never renounced a belief in the principle celestial marriage, and in the case of the latter, Adam-God was never an accepted doctrine at all.
101mythbuster 8 months ago
@101mythbuster "How much unbelief exists in the minds of Latter-Day-Saints in regard to one particular doctrine that I revealed to them and which God revealed to me...namely that Adam is our Father and our God." Brigham Young,Journal of Discourses, June 18th, 1873. Chapter 8 of The Changing World of Mormonism, is very helpful explaining the Adam-God doctrine and the book can be found in full on line.
Chapter 3 deals with the changes to the original revelations.
bossendenwoodconvict 8 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict You left out the next part of that quote where Young states "I DO NOT KNOW, I do not inquire, I CARE NOTHING ABOUT IT. Our Father Adam HELPED to make this earth, it was created expressly FOR HIM, and after it was made HE and his COMPANIONS came here" The quote which you provide only suggests that Adam is the patriarch and head God over this world, and in this case Brigham does not equate him to Elohim. This is perfectly in harmony with current LDS teachings.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Thanks for that. Young seems to be saying he cares nothing about the UNBELIEF of his followers in the Adam God doctrine. He cares about the doctrine and restates his belief in Adam being God in the next few lines. Is Adam the father of our spirits or Elohim? Is Elohim our Father or Grandfather?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Look, the point here is that whatever B.Y. said about Adam in earlier talks in later talks he contradicted himself. His theory seems to have evolved into more orthodox LDS belief in his later years although he really never openly admited error. The main thing is that B.Y. was alone in his ideas which were never really accepted by the general membership, nor the remaining apostles. B.Y. may have been president but his authority did not supersede that of the quorum of the12.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict FACT: Out of 1500 recorded discourses delivered by Brigham Young only 20 of these breifly mention this topic. The majority of these which make up the latter part of his talks can be easily reconciled into mainstream Mormonism. Sandra tanner's spin may be quite shocking to the many unsuspecting Mormons she's helped derail but to Mormons in the know her accusation don't hold any water.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster The problem is he seems so unequivocal about his beliefs in these instances. There is no mistaking what he means because he expands on it. From the journals of mormons at the time we know they were very troubled by the doctrine. They had no problem understanding what he meant.
Anyway, as a modern Mormon do you believe Adam is your Heavenly Father, or Elohim?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict No doubt many Mormons at the time were troubled by his words. This only supports the fact that this was never an accepted doctrine. But what the general membership understood is a completely separate matter from what Brigham actually meant. This issue is not as straight forward as critics like to think. A careful analysis of all his collective statements leaves one with doubt as to wether his statements were really as contraversial as people have interpreted them.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict To answer your question, of course I do not believe Adam is my hevenly father. I'm also well aware that B.Y. made statements to the contrary so save yourself the trouble of posting them. However, it is also unclear if he was actually referring to the biblical personage by the name Adam or to Elohim himself. As I'm sure you know, LDS believe the name Adam is a generic title given to the first man of every earth, and that God himself was once a mortal man on his own earth.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster So if B.Y. made statements to the contrary, isn't it unfair to say that antis are putting spin on them or even lying? Can't you allow them to have a different interpretation? (Actually the same one many mormons of Young's day had according to their own writings.)
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Again, B.Y.'s statements are not totally conclusive from the prespective of his collective teachings. To make any negative commentary on just a few of his words is to speculate on his intent. For this same reason, Adam-God may be the only instance in which LDS do not have an adequate response for the critics. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but when they turn into attempts at defamation it becomes completely unethical. If only their endless attacks stopped there.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbusterFirsly, I am pleased you seem to acknowledge the LDS response is not adequate here. Secondly, there are some anti mormons who defame mormon leaders.I don't think Sandra Tanner is one of them. Saying BY believed in Adam-God is hardly defamation. S.T. was brought up to admire her famous ancestor and it was being shocked by reading his sermons that started her research. If you live near S.L.C why not visit her?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict "why not visit her?" You're so kind but no thanks. Sandra Tanner is not "one of them" you say? I guess when she calls J.S. a "pedophile" she's not really trying to defame him, right? Please don't interpret my acknowledgement about B.Y.'s statements as me having doubts about the church. My testimony remains intact. I am merely stating that the church has no response because, put simply, BY was wrong. Priesthood authority has never been a badge of infallibility in any age.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster It's refreshing that you acknowledge the problem with the Adam God doctrine. I know S.T. believes Smith married a 14 year old. If she is wrong, perhaps point that out to her. In the 1990's she presented strong evidence against claims that Gordon Hinckley was an active Bisexual in the 1960's. Her research was very thorough and very favourable to the church.(See newsletter 84) S.L.C. Messenger.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Please, the church hardly needs any help from Sandra. Although she has enough influence among the anti-Mormons that she could set alot of other things straight if she wanted to, but she doesn't. She's just not willing to retract on her false claims.And yes, JS was sealed to a 14yr. old but there is no evidence of any conjugal relations taking place to qualify him as a pedophile. Joseph believed many of the women he married were already predestined to him, regardless of age.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Whether the church needs her help is not the point. The point is she is honest.
What does she need to set straight? We've been through Adam God and you acknowledge B.Y. was wrong. Is there anything else I can help with?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Here's a quote from one of ST's own sources which shows just how "honest" her claims are. "The Tanners made great mileage out of Joseph Smith's marriage to his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball. However, they failed to mention that I wrote that there is absolutely no evidence that there was any sexuality in the marriage... All the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage"-Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness:The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict I guess you're really going to milk this "B.Y. was wrong" thing, aren't you? Wether B.Y. was right or wrong is entirely besides the point. I have already made it clear that Adam-God was never an accepted fundamental Mormon doctrine and therefore ST's claims that the church has departed from it's original teachings is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. If you do not see this it's because you chose not to. But from an LDS perspective she's a talented teller of tales.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster I said we had been through it (Adam God) and asked if there was anything else to discuss. S.T.'s claims that the Church has departed from it's original teachings are not only based on Adam God. The Mormons have also changed their minds about plural marriage, the blacks, etc.
I can't remember if you told me, but how long have you been with the mormons?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict I am 3rd gen. Mormon. We both know that the church has not abandoned their belief in plural marriage, only it's illegal practice. Everyone knows that politacal pressure is the sole reason for this. Also, the eternal covenant of celestial marriage is still very much practiced today regardless of any number of wives, and when a man becomes a widow he is free to be sealed to a second wife without annuling the first marriage. Please explain what the doctrine of "the blacks" is.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster If you look at issue 102 of The Salt Lake City Messenger (May 2004) it is dedicated to the whole anti black issue. Very detailed. Re: Plural marriage. Perhaps it is more correct to say the LDS have abandoned their belief in the practice rather than the doctrine.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Statements made by early church leaders with regard to the African race were never intended as racist or "anti black", but merely reflected their doctrinal views. I don't know of any publication by the Church stating LDS have "abandoned their belief" in anything. The time when blacks would recieve the priesthood had been promised for a future generation and eventually came by revelation, just as when the Gospel blessings were extended unto the Gentiles by Peter in OT times.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster So do you believe their "doctrinal views?"
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Is that a trick question? Does believing in the decrees of God for a particular race make me a racist? Is God a racist? Maybe you'd care to ask that question to one of our African American Mormon brothers instead.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster It's a question that requires a yes or no answer.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict If you're looking for a simple answer then my response is yes, however, I believe them only within their true and proper context and from an LDS perspective, not in the context which the critics wish to give them.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Thanks for that. Isn't the simplest answer usually the best?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Honestly, I'm surprised you weren't trying to catch me in some kind of racial debate. But anyway, regarding Tanner, so far she has shown to be dishonest about every thing I mentioned. Is there anything else you wish to "clarify"?
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Well we saw she was right (and B.Y. wrong) over Adam God and didn't get much beyond that. She hasn't been dishonest about anything and is rarely wrong. She was, for a short while, prepared to believe Hoffman's letters,( just like the mormon leaders,) but eventually came round to her husband's view point that Hoffman was a fraud. The second part of "A Fireside With Sandra Tanner" gives the details towards the end.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict It would seem you're having trouble following the conversation. The church has recognized Young's error ever since his death. All Sandra T. has done is spin the facts out of proportion. I don't know why critics like to always mention the Hoffman forgeries, as if somehow they proved anything. Until Hoffman's confession, the church always maintained a position that the letter's authenticity could neither be confirmed or denied. I'm afraid your infallible prophetess is a con.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Does the fact the church spent thousands buying Hoffman's work suggest they thought his work was: A) Authentic? B) False? A one letter answer is enough. To help you consider this: Would you, for example, spend thousands on a famous painting if you weren't sure if it was genuine or not?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Check your facts. Hinckley turned down Hoffman's asking price for the Salamander letter numerous times because it was simply too high. The church eventually ended all negotiations with his agent. It was over a year later when Steven F.Christensen as a private member purchased the letter and, after having experts determine its authenticity, DONATED it to the church. If Hoffman had never ultimately confessed, everyone including Sandra T. would still never have been the wiser.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster The 2nd part of her fireside reveals Sandra came to believe Hoffman's documents were false. She started handing out literatureabout it at the Sunstone symposium. The next day Hoffman visited her shop and seemed on the point of tears as the Tanners, of all people were questioning his work. So we see that some had already wised up to Hoffman. The Tanners,(without being prophets) knew he was a fake; Kimball and Hinckley did not. The Church knew what Christensen was doing throughout.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict I am sure that Sandra Tanners close aquaintance with Hoffman made her a lot more keen on his dishonest nature. I guess it takes a liar to know a liar. Clearly, Hinckley was not fully convinced either. Your expectations for God's anointed are totally unrealistic. A prophet is not a mind reader. The only one I know who can do that is God.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Close aquaintance? Did she give Hoffman items worth $20,000 for the Anthon transcript? Did she pose with him and allow the pictures to appear in numerous publications? Did she write him a cheque for $15,000 as Hinckley did for the Josiah Stowel letter?No, but mormon leaders did all this.THEY had a close aquaintance with Hoffman. We have seen S.T. is honest. She debunked things that could have hurt the church. No disnonest nature and no close aquaintance with Hoffman.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Look, no one is saying ST doesn't believe her own claims. Clearly she is decieved like many other apostates. Anyone looking to find fault in anything will eventually find it. I'm not saying many of her sources are not factual, it's all about the negative commentary and spin she gives them. Her blind bias does not permit her to see things in their true light. She had no intrest in protecting the church from Hoffman's lies, only in asserting her own version of things.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Her interest in protecting the church from lies is easy to explain. The case against mormonism must be built on genuine documents and evidence. It's no good putting false claims into the public arena; you'll eventually get caught out. If the Tanners had accepted Hoffman's work the LDS apologists would use this against them, despite the churches own dealings with Hoffman! Instead the affair raised theTanner's credibility as we have seen from D.C. Peterson's positive comments.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict "If the Tanners had accepted Hoffman's work the LDS apologists would use this against them," You have only supported my point further. The Tanners had no interest in the truth, only in their own credibility. Sandra is a careful and calculating liar.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict "until they [the Tanners] are prepared to abide by accepted standards of scholarly behavior and common courtesy, they can expect little sympathy from serious historians...refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standard of absolute rectitude which they demand....The Tanners seem to be playing a skilful shell game in which the premises for judgment are conveniently shifted so that the conclusion is always the same—negative." Lawrence Foster, non-Mormon historian.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster You've said she believes her own claims and her sources are factual.
If she believes her own claims and her sources are factual then we can at least allow her to be honest, (even though supposedly wrong in the conclusions she draws from the sources.) So instead of calling her "a liar" perhaps say she "is mistaken." Or say "I disagree with..." and then explain why.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict Mybe you're right on that piont, but then, people often justify themselves in their unethical practices. It seems Sandra Tanner is under the influence of a lying spirit. Anyone who is not of the truth is a liar, wether they know it or not.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster That's quite a frightening thought. How is anyone to know who is under the influence of these lying spirits or not? The Tanners' rebuttal of charges against Hinckley and rejection of Hofmann's documents were favourable from a Mormon viewpoint. Were their lying spirits on vacation then?
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict How do we know? By the spirit of truth of course. How does one know the difference? Only someone unaquainted with the spirit of truth would ask such a question. One honest deed does not make someone an honest person, especially if they did it out of self interest. The devil will tell a hundred truths to make one lie, and he does not sleep.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster
It seems then that if the Tanners had accepted Hofmann's work they would be damned but as they rejected it they are also be damned. This is prejudice.
Re: The Spirit of truth. Lots of different religions believe they have it and "KNOW" beyond a shadow of a doubt they are right. They can't all be...so we have to evaluate them by the evidence.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict No one is condeming the Tanners for their rejection of Hoffman's forgeries, but rather for their numerous other falsehoods. How is this prejudice? Plenty of scholars have already evaluated their work and found it to be replete with bias and speculation. However, to those earnestly seeking to know if the church is true, only the spirit of truth will suffice.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster Yes, but when we look at a particular issue related to mormonism, and get beyond personal criticisms people throw at them, we find they are right. "Answering Mormon Scholars" 1& 2 deals with most of the criticisms.
RE: Lying spirits etc. All sides in a discussion could accuse the other of being under the influence of spirits, claim they had the true spirit etc... but they would never move forward. At the end of the day we all have to submit ourselves to the evidence.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict All scholarly criticism about the Tanners has been entirely about their work, not their personal affairs, both from Mormon or non-Mormon scholars. There is nothing to "get beyond" here. Their whole approach to the "issues" is the problem. I am sure that, since their claims support your own beliefs, you feel inclined to believe them, but you're only buying into a straw man image of the church . At the end of the day, all that really matters is the witness of the Holy Ghost.
101mythbuster 7 months ago
@101mythbuster We've looked at two issues- and on both the Tanners were right. Whatever their "approach" it has led them to the right conclusions. Re: Personal criticims of the Tanners. In "Answering Mormon Scholars 1&2" we find the Mormon scholars have made very personal attacks on the Tanners. Why don't they just deal with the issues?
These books (AMS 1&2) would be of great interest to you. Read them and see.
bossendenwoodconvict 7 months ago
@bossendenwoodconvict "Why don't they just deal with the issues?" Well, I'll tell you why, it's because the so called "issues" are entirely a fabrication of the Tanners and their misrepresentation of things. The facts themselves are not the problem, but the implications which they like to give them. Hence, addressing the Tanner's methods is addressing the "issues". I must have missed some part of the conversation but please remind me, what were these "two issues" the Tanners are right about?
101mythbuster 7 months ago